In this episode of Based Camp, Malcolm and Simone Collins break down the Revenge of the Chud — the astonishing wave of woke flops across Hollywood and gaming. From Christopher Nolan’s The Odyssey getting destroyed in reactions, to Disney’s Snow White bombing, Marvel flops, Ubisoft’s collapse, and more, they explore why “go woke, go broke” is finally hitting critical mass.They dive deep into the cultural shift: the explosion of right-leaning AI creativity (Skybrow Cinematic Universe, Leaflet vibe-coding, based AI music/videos), the mysterious disappearance of woke consumers and leftist counterculture, and why the right is building new artistic languages with no real opposition.Plus: homeschooling chaos, Reality Fabricator (RFAB) updates, techno-feudalism, and why the future of culture belongs to those actually creating.Episode Transcript[00:00:00] Malcolm Collins: Hello, Simone. I’m excited to be here with you today. Today, we are going to be talking about the year of the chud. W- I thought last year was the year of the chud in terms- ... of woke flops. But a lot of other channels, they’ll do an episode on every woke flop, every big conservative win.[00:00:16] I wanted to cluster all of these together because now- ... their frequency and scale has been genuinely astonishing. And I think to a point where people are beginning to, even in the industry, be like, “Oh, we can’t do this anymore. Like, we cannot cast these types of individuals anymore. We cannot lead with X types of characters anymore.[00:00:44] Like, the market simply does not tolerate it.”[00:00:47] Speaker: such as Christopher Nolan’s, , Odyssey, which has just been absolutely destroyed in reactions on YouTube with videos attacking it or mocking it, getting more views than it has, , with a huge negative like to dislike ratio. , And, , especially for a movie that like this mainstream, this big. , And, , I think what Hollywood may take away from this is you cannot cast black people in non-black roles going forwards and you cannot cast trans people as cis people going forwards.[00:01:19] I think not that you can’t cast these people more broadly, but those are things they should have known. I mean, like we learned you can’t cast white people as black people a while ago. Why did it take them so long to learn that with white people? Or maybe they won’t learn. As you know, I said in the Kirsha thing, , we had to literally shut down all of Ubisoft to \ get it through their sick skull, , that we didn’t want that slop.[00:01:44] , So maybe we’ll have to shut down a lot of Hollywood as well.[00:01:46] Speaker 10: Love the women 87% like dislike ratio for Christopher Nolan’s The Odyssey. Oh my God, 446,000 dislike a ruskies[00:01:58] Malcolm Collins: And what’s interesting about this, and, and this is what I’m going to start with, ‘cause I think it’s the, the most interesting part other than just cheering every individual victory, is it sort of feels like we don’t have anyone playing against us, and I want to explore why. We have another episode where we go into this, called, like, The Mystery of the Missing Woke Customer. Oh,[00:02:23] yeah ...[00:02:24] because if we look at the number of people, even number of people who, like, I know of in my life who are still very urban monoculture-[00:02:33] Mm-hmm[00:02:34] um, there should be a buyer base for woke-ified products. And yet-[00:02:41] Simone Collins: Right ...[00:02:42] Malcolm Collins: we are seeing numbers that are, like, 50 people bought it or something. You know, like, in some of the instances it’ll be like a, you know, 5,000 people bought something that cost 300 million to make, right? Like, it, there are numbers that simply do not make sense.[00:02:59] But I had this realization.[00:03:01] Simone Collins: Well, no, there was one other detail that you said in that episode that really stuck with me was that when you looked into it, a lot of the developers of these w- woke audience targeted games that no woke people are buying, themselves don’t even eat the dog food, as we say in Silicon Valley.[00:03:15] Like, they don’t, they wouldn’t even buy the games they’re developing, if fact they’re just- Oh, yeah. Well, I mean,[00:03:18] Malcolm Collins: a number of[00:03:18] Simone Collins: woke games- ... consuming 90s media, right?[00:03:20] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Like, if you even look at a game l- like Concord or whatever, when that bombed, or, or Mixtape, like, if, even if the development team was playing it, they would have better numbers, right?[00:03:29] Like, the, the, the numbers are so low, they almost don’t make sense. And w- I had this realization that changed a lot of this for me, which is I was talking with a reporter, a trans reporter who writes on us sometimes. I actually think she’s quite a based individual. I have no negative feelings towards this individual.[00:03:49] Y- you- ... she’s one of those, you know, based trans people, if you, if you know any of them. They, they actually exist. But she was like, “Anything new going on in AI? [00:04:00] Like, what are you thinking about in AI? What is your community talking about in AI?” And I was like, “W- w- like AI is everything in my community right now.[00:04:08] Like do you know about the Skybrow Cinematic Universe?” Right? And she I mean, obviously she didn’t, but I started to walk her through it, and then I had this realization and I started researching it, and there isn’t. If you look at the, the right-leaning community online, you’ve got you know, Leaflet will be on a stream, and she’ll be like, “Wouldn’t it be funny if we made a video game about what the tribe of warrior women in Africa who are actually like super involved with slaving and the people trying to stop them were the British, if we made a video game about that tribe?”[00:04:43] And so she’ll just start like vibe coding it on the screen in the background while she’s streaming.[00:04:49] Simone Collins: That’s so fun.[00:04:51] Malcolm Collins: Or the other game she made when she was streaming last time. I mean, I keep seeing her make ones a lot. The other one was on trying to catch Mexicans crossing the border with a lasso.[00:04:58] Oh my God. Oh, my God. The other one was going to the Anthony trial and selling a pineapple that you had you know- Oh, no ... kept in the, what do you call it? Kool-Aid or whatever, whatever, whatever, whatever the, Something about Kool-Aid and pineapples ... the funny viral drink is.[00:05:13] Simone Collins: Whatever.[00:05:13] Malcolm Collins: And then people would try to rob you.[00:05:15] And just fantastic. I love it. But it’s, it’s- Mm ... you see that. You see, the shared... And this, this is very interesting to me because I realized when I was talking to the reporter about it and they’re like, “Well, that’s interesting.” And I go, “No, no, no, no, no. Like, you don’t get it.” Like, they’re like, “Oh, y- now that this is cheap, there’s people making stuff with it.”[00:05:36] And I’m like, that’s not really the fullness of what’s going on here. That’s a bit like looking at early 4chan and being like, “Oh, people have started, found, found a place where they can anonymously share stuff. And so th- now they’ve begun to like iteratively share images.” And it’s like, yes, that is true.[00:05:53] But more important, a unique language and artistic style began to be developed in the way that those lang- images, those macros communicate. And this language and artistic style ended up being a dominant force in American politics you know, about 15 years, 10 years after it originated, right? And having been around during that period What is happening in the artistic language of the right and how we use AI-[00:06:30] Simone Collins: Hmm[00:06:31] Malcolm Collins: feels incredibly similar. It feels like this type of ... And I think if you’re on the right, or this broader community, you do not notice just how frequently you are hitting AI art, right? Mm. Like, I this happened to me when at first what I’m thinking is, like, Sky Brown stuff, and then I thought oh, well, you know, the only person who really opposes us is Dog Shocker Hasan, and then I was like, oh yeah, I should send them the, the video where Hasan raps about shocking his dog.[00:07:05] And then I was like, oh yeah, that’s an AI video. It had actually gone out of my brain that the dog, the dog shocking video was made with AI because it wasn’t done in the stylistic language of the things that I am used to being made in AI.[00:07:23] Simone Collins: Oh, that’s so funny.[00:07:24] Malcolm Collins: But it is, you know, on the the secondary stylistic language.[00:07:28] In the same way with, like, as memes were first developed, you had your Wojaks, you had your Pepes, you had your, ... The dog shocking video, in terms of its artistic meme category, falls into the same category I’d put the Spencer Pratt for, for mayor ad. Which again, is something made with AI.[00:07:46] And what’s important to note is if you’re on the right, you’re like, “Well, of course we’re using AI to make things.”[00:07:52] The left isn’t. I actually went into this with y- w- well, with AI to try to find [00:08:00] is there any equivalent online, like, creation, collaborative creation with AI community on the left? And the best it could find was somebody who was politically neutral and made, like, s- a, a sci-fi universe with AI which was a cool product.[00:08:17] I, I thought it was actually- That does[00:08:18] Simone Collins: sound really cool. Yeah ...[00:08:19] Malcolm Collins: neat. Yeah. I, I, I tried to watch it and it was f- unfortunately for me, boring. I didn’t really like it. But-[00:08:27] Simone Collins: We’ve obliterated- Not like- ... our attention spans. It’s fair, you[00:08:30] Malcolm Collins: know? Well, I like, I like my stuff entertaining, right? You know? But you certainly and I[00:08:36] Simone Collins: yeah, buddy, we’re not done. Did you finish your math lessons for the day? No.[00:08:39] Malcolm Collins: Oh, I,[00:08:40] Simone Collins: I couldn’t. Oh.[00:08:41] Malcolm Collins: I think[00:08:42] Simone Collins: we[00:08:44] Malcolm Collins: gotta seize the luck. He[00:08:44] Simone Collins: said five lessons today. But we got- Tell him ... PC Principal over here.[00:08:47] Malcolm Collins: Tell[00:08:48] Simone Collins: him.[00:08:48] Malcolm Collins: Tell him[00:08:48] Simone Collins: you did five- Daddy says five[00:08:49] Malcolm Collins: lessons ... he gave you, he made a promise.[00:08:50] Now you gotta take him up to[00:08:50] Simone Collins: it Have you done five? You said you promised.[00:08:52] Malcolm Collins: No. I, I t- I tried. I tried- Well, you better, you better keep your promise ... but it got sleepy and I went with Eric and I only did zero so far. Uly, you,[00:09:01] Simone Collins: you got about an hour and a half left.[00:09:03] Malcolm Collins: If it, if it makes you feel any better, I was watching a video today about how children typically do better if you wait to start teaching them- Oh ... language and math- Mm[00:09:12] um, until around the age of seven. So we’re- Mm ... we’re even before where we should be doing it if we were aligning with the studies.[00:09:19] Simone Collins: Okay.[00:09:20] Malcolm Collins: Which you should probably look into, by the way. You, you seem to have just, like, immediately defaulted to what the school system says is best without considering-[00:09:27] Simone Collins: well, I have to maintain statutory requirements.[00:09:30] So I don’t actually consider, like, the lessons that he has to do to meet statutory requirements for us to, like, be able to basically show the proof we have to show to keep him homeschooled. I don’t consider that with education. Yeah. Figured that that would be... Love you, buddy But yeah, it’s, it’s the stuff that he learns with us.[00:09:54] I, I’m not, I’m... When I think he needs to learn certain concepts, I’m not gonna have him do lessons to learn those concepts. I’m going to teach him those concepts. We have different versions. It’s, it’s like a, a two-sided homeschooling system. One is keep him out of public school, which means meeting the statutory requirements.[00:10:13] Side two is actually teach him things that he needs to succeed.[00:10:16] Malcolm Collins: They allow- And I’m, we’re doing both ... for, like, Waldorf schools in Pennsylvania, and they operate on this principle. There, there are ways around this.[00:10:23] Simone Collins: Mordorf. Where you[00:10:25] Malcolm Collins: go to- Waldorf or whatever ... Mordor. Anyway so the point I’m making here is that there isn’t an opposing visual form being created, artistic form or culture being created on the left, which feels very different from the early 4chan days.[00:10:44] Hmm. Because in the early 4chan days, while 4chan was developing the culture that is now- ... controlling the White House Twitter feed, right?[00:10:52] Simone Collins: And whoever is running that, oh my goodness gracious ...[00:10:55] Malcolm Collins: we need to do a meme review for, for White House account.[00:10:59] Simone Collins: The things they’ve posted, this is next level.[00:11:01] Malcolm Collins: Unhinged AI funness.[00:11:03] Unhinged. Like, I love it too.[00:11:05] Simone Collins: So, yeah, yeah. I just, I, it’s so, it’s so well- They[00:11:07] Malcolm Collins: had a, actually, they had a great AI... They’ve done a number of really good AI projects. Like, the one recently was of Dr. Trump curing a bunch of lefty celebrities- Ooh ... of Trump Derangement Syndrome and them talking- Oh, wow[00:11:18] Speaker 6: Diagnosed with TDS? The symptoms can be relentless. Fortunately, I’m Dr. Trump, and I have a treatment plan. Let’s hear what some of my patients have to say. I have been suffering for over a decade, and after listening to Dr. Trump, I can see some results. Man, I’ve been suffering for years. I really didn’t believe that was help out there.[00:11:44] Speaker 8: That was when I came across this video on TV. I really thought I was a lost cause. This was gonna affect me for the rest of my life. But after using the treatment plan, I can see a difference[00:11:57] Malcolm Collins: about how he changed their life. But, like, [00:12:00] what is fascinating about all of this is it used to be we were competing against Tumblr culture. And the- Ooh ... language and visual forms and cultural norms that they developed came to dominate the modern left. Hmm. But right now, we aren’t actually fighting with anyone.[00:12:25] And what it... This really hit me as I was like, “Who do we on the right, like, pretend our core opponent is in the songs, in the videos, in the, in the stuff?” It’s, like, Hasan Piker, which I have never in my entire life met a real fan of Hasan Piker. I, and we’ve talked about this before, struggle to even model somebody who might be a fan of Hasan Piker.[00:12:52] I was surprised to find out that his fan base is actually majority male as well, which- It is, wow ... is even more confusing. Who-[00:12:59] Simone Collins: That is, because the only people that we have heard of are some women who listen to this podcast who have either friends or coworkers who are female who listen to Hasan Piker.[00:13:09] That’s it[00:13:11] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So, and, and Hasan Piker has like a small sort of orbit of community, if, if you know what I mean? But they’re, they’re minuscule compared to... Like, if you look at the, the, the wider community that we’re a part of, you know, your, your Nux and your Asmogold and your Tectone and your Goth Guy and your Leaflet and your Kirsha and your Smug Alana and your just Powder can’t, can’t leave her out.[00:13:38] A- outside of even the, the AI creators, it’s a fairly... There, there isn’t a Hasan equivalent to this.[00:13:46] Simone Collins: Hmm.[00:13:47] Malcolm Collins: Right? There, there, there are orbiters, but it’s not like a constellation of real beliefs or anything like that. And this is when I realized, like are we fighting, like, the air? Like, do we just dunk on Hasan to dunk on Hasan?[00:14:02] Speaker 2: To give you an idea of what I mean here, the two figures our community makes fun of the most other than Hasan are his fat Muslim orbiter and mod who has like sixty regular watchers that I’m aware of, , I don’t remember her name, and who’s currently in a lawsuit with Ian Klein. And then also in a lawsuit with Ian Klein, we often make fun of iDubbbz.[00:14:24] But iDubbbz we make fun of because at one point in the past he was famous, but he’s certainly not famous now. He doesn’t have an audience now. That we have to dig to that extent, where are our enemies? I don’t know. The large leftist content producers who I respect enough to not make fun of, like ContraPoints, simply don’t produce videos anymore, , or not frequently.[00:14:49] , Philosophy Tube, we’ve done a video on one of their takes, but like even on the left they’re seen as sort of a creep who tried to copy ContraPoints after dating her like her entire life, , which is really creepy. What, by that I mean is apparently , he dated her and then he went trans and then he like took her style and career, , which is a weird thing to do, and she has acknowledged this in a deleted tweet.[00:15:14] , But anyway, yeah, she’s like, “You think your stalkers are bad? At least nobody tried to steal your life.”[00:15:19] Speaker 3: Actually, now that I think about it, that could explain part of why the leftist influencer class disappeared. They have like psychological breakdowns and become incredibly unproductive. , They’re just not as hardworking as well. , Like Contrapoints just dying off as a channel due to not working as hard or not having as loud of a cultural voice.[00:15:38] Or, another person who this happened to was, , Lindsay Ellis. Uh, you know, her, her own side turned on her at one point, and she ended up having a bunch of mental issues as a result of that. , And then there was--[00:15:49] Aluma Hottie, who ended up being a scam artist and everybody descended on her like sharks[00:15:55] Malcolm Collins: Like, he doesn’t seem to have credibility with any mainstream [00:16:00] demographic or movement or anything like that. Hmm. And it’s really fascinating where I project what’s going to happen, or when I project what’s going to happen, to culture moving forwards, given that there isn’t a meaningful leftist counterculture building something right now[00:16:27] Hmm.[00:16:28] And I am confused by that. I know that leftists are like reactively anti-AI, but the right had some people who were anti-AI in the early days. I guess just everyone ignored them. I think it may, it might be at the right that we got better at ignoring the people who were shrieking at us.[00:16:50] Simone Collins: I, I think a huge portion of it is that they all went to Blue Sky and that-[00:16:55] Malcolm Collins: Well, this is the secondary thing.[00:16:57] Yeah ... I was talking, and I’ve noticed this as well, to the journalist about... I was like, “Who are the futurists? Who are the pro-AI people on the left?” And we both came to sort of realize they exist on the left, but they don’t make stuff. So they’re typically like in programming AI or like, she mentioned Cory Doctorow is one of these people.[00:17:21] And I’m like, Cory Doctorow is kind of pro-AI kind of trepidatious on AI when I actually read his stuff. But by the way, you can look at, look at the thing starting up. Hey.[00:17:35] So getting, getting that all set up. For our kids hopefully, I really wanna get this working by tomorrow. That, that would be so cool that I can start, you know, having people buy the hardware products[00:17:46] Simone Collins: And trying it out, well-[00:17:47] Malcolm Collins: And trying them out,[00:17:48] Simone Collins: yeah Let’s play test it on the kids first, ‘cause you might wanna make a lot of design changes based on what they respond to[00:17:56] Malcolm Collins: But there are people on the left who are okay with AI or even futurist, they just don’t make stuff[00:18:04] Simone Collins: Hmm[00:18:05] Malcolm Collins: And I f- I wanted to think through this.[00:18:07] One is, and I will say this very strongly, this was not entirely organic on the right. This was very seeded in a way where what I would say is having it called the Skybrow Cinematic Universe, I think makes perfect sense.[00:18:26] Speaker 4: What I mean by that is if the human being who is behind Sky Brows didn’t exist, I don’t know that we would’ve gotten off on all of this. Simone and I used to make AI songs at the end of our videos, but we never put in that much effort because I simply didn’t know that a product that good was possible.[00:18:40] It hadn’t been modeled to us that this can be done, and I think all of us seeing that in such a familiar way where it felt like such a down to earth, “Oh, I watch the same types of people you watch,” showed us all what we could attempt, and we are the type of community that when we see something, we go, “Hey, I should try that.”[00:18:59] Malcolm Collins: And also talking a bit about the language that’s being developed in this before we go over all these woke flops ‘cause I, I just wanna think about this.[00:19:06] It, like, feels like we’re fighting a cultural battle and no one’s on the other side of the cultural battle. It’s almost Truman Show-esque. These-[00:19:15] Simone Collins: What it feels like to me is loosely tied and overlapping affiliative groups that enjoy similar things and enjoy membership in their overlapping cultures.[00:19:30] But, but this is- And they don’t really care about what outsiders think. I mean, it’s, we’ve reached a point at which it doesn’t really matter that much No, they[00:19:35] Malcolm Collins: do. They do. Actually, I think, I actually think that that’s what is happening-[00:19:39] Simone Collins: Really? ...[00:19:39] Malcolm Collins: and, and causing a lot of this phenomenon, is most people are not woke.[00:19:46] Even most urban monoculture people are not woke. They might even think of themselves as a little subversive. But at the end of the day, most people want status and to be seen as erudite, elite, [00:20:00] sophisticated.[00:20:00] Speaker 12: A recent study essentially confirmed this. It was done at Northwestern University, Michigan, on performative progressivism in 2025 is when it came out. It showed that 88% of students pretend to hold more progressive views than they really do. , And,[00:20:14] 77% said that they disagreed with the idea that gender identity should override biological sex in domains in sports and health and public data. But that 77% also said they would never voice that in public. 80% say they misrepresent their views in coursework, you know, knowing that they need to lie about their views to get good grades.[00:20:31] , This is the degree to which we are teaching people you have to hide any conservative belief you have if you want to be seen as high status or get ahead in society[00:20:41] Malcolm Collins: We were interacting with a, an old classmate of mine recently who really fit into this category, right?[00:20:47] In, in terms of, like, why she found our views so mortifying and the way we’re expressing them so mortifying is because it was trashy, it was low class, it was because the wokes have successfully branded certain views and ways of talking and ways of acting as, as being that. And when other people have done podcasts on us they bragged about how their title cards didn’t use AI.[00:21:13] And I don’t think that they were anti-AI people But they thought that that was something worthy of being proud of when all their title cards were was cutting out people’s faces- Yeah ... that they had found from Google Images and putting them on the title card.[00:21:27] Simone Collins: For real, yeah. Not, not a flex.[00:21:32] Malcolm Collins: Not a flex. The, our AI title cards are actually pretty hard to create.[00:21:35] Like, they, talent goes in to being this based, people. Ugh.[00:21:40] Do you know that yesterday we had the Pope being mesmerized by a trans gun? Oh my gosh. That was an awesome title card. Even the, the clickbaitiness of the title cards requires some work. You know?[00:21:54] Simone Collins: It does, yeah. The, the, there is genuinely actually for, for every title card there are two to five alternate options that we discuss.[00:22:02] We, we put way too much thought into these.[00:22:07] Malcolm Collins: No, title cards are the most important part of an episode. I, I know-[00:22:09] Simone Collins: I know, I know ... they take the most- They’re, they’re the face of an episode. They’re the cover of the book. They matter completely and, and entirely. And yes, we do put a lot of effort into them and, you know.[00:22:19] Malcolm Collins: But I think what we’re missing is those types of people don’t go out and buy a woke show. They don’t even consider themselves woke. They’re slightly annoyed- Yeah ... by woke people.[00:22:30] Simone Collins: Well, I think this might be- But- It’s similar to a dynamic we’re finding with Reality Fabricator, and I’d love to see this somehow be defied eventually.[00:22:39] But right now, like- 95% of our customers are male.[00:22:45] Malcolm Collins: And- But about taking advantage that sites users are female.[00:22:47] Simone Collins: Yeah. And I feel like that there might be a similar dynamic with far progressives, where in the end, like the money just isn’t there. Th- they’re not buying the things, and that makes them consumers with not a lot of influence in the end when they’re working at least with companies that actually look for a return on investment.[00:23:08] And I will say that there has been a period where I guess there’s been this weird subsidy of woke products. It lasted a lot longer than all the go woke, go broke canaries in the coal mine would have thought. But I think maybe we’re reaching the end of that. Well, I mean, look,[00:23:22] Malcolm Collins: they all, they all start going broke as soon as USAID gets shut down.[00:23:26] Simone Collins: Weirdly.[00:23:26] Malcolm Collins: Surprising, huh?[00:23:28] Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. No, there, there is this very strange dynamic of large groups and segments in societies not paying for certain types of products, just not being meaningful consumers, and that, that will have an effect on culture.[00:23:41] Malcolm Collins: So, the, and I’ll go into all the flops in just a second.[00:23:45] You guys have all seen all the numbers before probably, so not that exciting, but the, the sheer scale of it. I mean, we culturally took down Ubisoft, which was one of the largest [00:24:00] brands in gaming, simply by removing their customer base, right? This has been astonishing that you could take down... I used to buy every Assassin’s Creed release, by the way.[00:24:15] I quite like[00:24:16] Simone Collins: them. Yeah. I remember you looking forward to them with great anticipation. I feel like the last one you enjoyed was the pirate one.[00:24:22] Malcolm Collins: That, that’s often thought of as the best one, but it’s not the last one I enjoyed.[00:24:25] Simone Collins: Maybe the Paris one was okay.[00:24:27] Malcolm Collins: I was okay- Did you like that one? ... up to the, the Viking one.[00:24:30] I thought the Viking one was fine.[00:24:31] Simone Collins: Oh, I don’t remember you saying anything about the Viking one ever.[00:24:35] Malcolm Collins: Well, it wasn’t as good as the other. I mean, I didn’t like it as much as like the... I, I thought the Paris one was also fine. The one that I’ve replayed is not the pirate one, but the American Revolution one.[00:24:44] Simone Collins: Mm.[00:24:44] Malcolm Collins: That one’s I, I think gets, gets undersold in terms of, You could, you get to play in areas that are like where we live today- Oh, that’s fun ... but in the colonial period.[00:24:53] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:24:53] Malcolm Collins: You[00:24:53] Simone Collins: know. But the pirate one had the sea shanties.[00:24:56] Malcolm Collins: The pirate one had the sea shanties. Yes, it did. So how quickly people turn against this stuff that were f- previously, like, totally okay with it.[00:25:03] Like me being okay with drippies of wokeness, and then just reaching this point where it’s like I’m absolutely radicalized. I’m not touching anything that you people have touched. And th- so I think that that’s the, the key part of the mystery. Actual wokes are incredibly rare. Most of it is your average aspiring to be upper class, respected, urban professional.[00:25:28] Yeah.[00:25:28] That’s who actually makes up the muscle of the wokes, but they don’t like the wokes, and they don’t identify as woke.[00:25:36] Hmm.[00:25:36] They identify as the cultural elite. And keep in mind, the, the people who identify as a cultural elite are always going to be much more than the number of people who actually are culturally elite, you know?[00:25:47] These are the people who have their Substack that they pay for people to read, you know, like, the, the sad, sad situations like that. But to continue Let’s go over some explicit drops other than Ubisoft, because that was absolutely crazy that that happened. I mean remember the, the... Oh, God, the trans one.[00:26:07] Veilguard came out. Oh. And the numbers were astonishingly low, like in the low thousands in terms of purchases. But recently even things like Disney, so if you look at Snow White, Snow White had a budget of 240 million and 270 million, with heavy marketing on top of that. Mm. With a worldwide gross of only around 200 million.[00:26:28] That means that they lost around $100 million.[00:26:31] Simone Collins: That is impossible sounding. That’s, that’s vaporizing money. Oh, my gosh.[00:26:38] Malcolm Collins: That is, that is a sto- Mm. Mm. I mean, if Rachel Zegler ever gets a job again, I am going to... like whoever gives it to her just is insane. Because she single-handedly s- broke that. Like, it didn’t need to be that bad.[00:26:53] Simone Collins: Come on, they made the fairest of them all about who was the most fair. Who was the[00:26:58] Malcolm Collins: communist-est, yeah.[00:27:00] Simone Collins: I... No. I think th- this... There were many. There were many people who played a role, okay? That sounded so bad.[00:27:09] Malcolm Collins: The[00:27:10] Simone Collins: world. Oh, and remember when they originally tried to cast non-dwarves for the seven dwarves?[00:27:16] They were just a multicolored group of mi- misfits. That’s-[00:27:20] Malcolm Collins: It looked so dumb and bad,[00:27:22] Simone Collins: and I don’t know- I would have preferred to see that, honestly. The CGI dwarfs looked super creepy, so I would have preferred the, the misfits Which was[00:27:29] Malcolm Collins: so much worse than real dwarves. Why did they not just... Right,[00:27:33] Simone Collins: yeah, and again, totally screwing over the dwarf acting community, which, you know, their, their roles are few and far between.[00:27:38] Give them a, something to work with, people. They must have been so excited. They’re like, “Finally, they’re making a new Snow White. This is our moment. We’ve been waiting for decades for another job.” And then they cast... And then they went CGI. Anyway, yeah, miss- missed the boat.[00:27:55] Malcolm Collins: The-[00:27:55] Simone Collins: Okay. How many left until done?[00:27:57] Okay, [00:28:00][00:28:00] Malcolm Collins: one.[00:28:02] Simone Collins: Oh, buddy, I’m so sorry, but you are gonna have to do some more, because you have not done one if you have 40%. Or 20%. Okay?[00:28:21] Malcolm Collins: Tell him he has to go do it right now- Mm-hmm ... or daddy’s gonna be very mad. Why? Because- And Krampus might come[00:28:27] Simone Collins: Oh, daddy says Krampus might come. He, yeah, he doesn’t, yeah. Because he,[00:28:31] Malcolm Collins: he made a promise.[00:28:32] Oh.[00:28:32] Simone Collins: He said, “You made a promise.” And to do a course actually means, to do a lesson actually means to do it. We know you’re good at these, okay?[00:28:39] Malcolm Collins: I didn’t know. I’m sorry. It’s[00:28:41] Simone Collins: okay. Just[00:28:42] Malcolm Collins: go ahead. I thought 4% or 20% means no thing.[00:28:45] Simone Collins: Yeah, it means failed But it’s okay, buddy. You can do it. We believe in you.[00:28:50] Malcolm Collins: How many do I have[00:28:51] Simone Collins: to do?[00:28:52] Well, you have to do five that you actually completed and passed Okay.[00:28:58] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, but what about these two ones down here?[00:29:01] Simone Collins: Those two count. Okay?[00:29:04] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, like, yeah, like this one. Yeah. Is that 60%?[00:29:06] Simone Collins: Uh-huh, that one is, yeah, 60% right[00:29:08] Malcolm Collins: there. And we don’t, and we don’t even know this.[00:29:10] Simone Collins: Yeah, and when it says N/A, it doesn’t matter.[00:29:12] You just completed it, and that’s all that matters.[00:29:14] Malcolm Collins: Oh, do I have to, do I have to do more?[00:29:14] Simone Collins: So three more, okay? At least. Three. Three more.[00:29:20] Malcolm Collins: Three.[00:29:20] Simone Collins: Yeah. Thank you, my friend. I wanna- I appreciate you focusing in on this, ‘cause you did make a promise[00:29:29] I wanna do this fast. Well, but if you do it fast, you’ll have to keep doing more He has to learn he can’t just try to speed run these by just answering all the questions wrong.[00:29:37] Malcolm Collins: Okay, M- Marvels. Marvels. You had total cost was around 300 million worldwide. Mm. It only made around 200 million. Again lowest grossing MCU film. And this was around 100 million loss. Supergirl, the one that everyone’s talking about right now it looks like it’s under 99 million right now, and it cost around 275 million. So[00:29:57] Simone Collins: it’s- How many of these cost this much when so much is just filmed on, like, a sound stage in front of a green screen?[00:30:06] Malcolm Collins: I mean it’s just-[00:30:06] Simone Collins: Like, films should cost less to film now than they ever have before.[00:30:10] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, but unions and they don’t like... I mean, they’re, they’re using AI too is the thing. Yeah. Like, how are they failing even when using AI?[00:30:17] Simone Collins: Oh, I thought the unions banned AI.[00:30:20] Malcolm Collins: No, no, no. They use AI for special effects now.[00:30:23] Simone Collins: Oh, okay, okay. Oh, but just not for actors.[00:30:26] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Then you have The, a- and the other thing that we’ve noticed is that on the other side, like when our side releases something or they try to cancel something, it almost always does really well. Obviously the biggest example of this was Hogwarts Legacy, which just- Oh[00:30:45] absolutely crushed records. It did. So the same thing happened with Black Myth: Wukong, Stellar Blade, Warhammer Forty- 40K Space Marines 2, Mm ... and things like Helldivers[00:30:56] Simone Collins: 2. Oh yeah, Helldivers. I just kept hearing about that everywhere when it came out.[00:31:00] Malcolm Collins: And then Sound- In a good way ... of Freedom and the King of Kings, and David and recently on X Citizen Vigilante- Yeah[00:31:08] a film about going around and murdering immigrants who are raping people which is a fun idea for a movie. I like it. Elon made it free on X or something.[00:31:19] Simone Collins: For 48 hours, yeah. After Germany gave it a non-rated status, which was sort of their functional way to try to ban it.[00:31:29] Malcolm Collins: That’s awful, but I love that that’s how he pushed back.[00:31:32] Like, “Oh, you, you’re gonna give this unrated?” Yeah. “I’ll make sure everybody sees this movie.”[00:31:37] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:31:38] Malcolm Collins: And starring by Armie Hammer, who-[00:31:40] Simone Collins: Armie Hammer ...[00:31:42] Malcolm Collins: I’m glad he’s making a comeback. I always felt his cancellation was... I, I think he was a jerk to his wife, but I, I felt the extent of the cancellation was heavily unjustified.[00:31:51] Yeah. And it, it, so, you know- Yeah ... our side doesn’t f*****g care.[00:31:57] Simone Collins: We really don’t, man [00:32:00][00:32:01] Malcolm Collins: We really don’t.[00:32:02] Simone Collins: It’s honestly just appropriate casting in the end, so like, you know. Right. I think that he read the, he read the reputation. It’s exactly what he should do.[00:32:09] Malcolm Collins: The, the, the ha- have it be something that he’s like super into, going around murdering these people.[00:32:14] Make, make it more believable. Yeah ... make it, make it more morally dubious. I think people love that, the Dexter thing, you know. Mm, yeah ... it’s just like I just can’t stop killing people, so I guess I’m gonna make it bad guys. But then have them also be migrant rape- Ooh ... migrant rapes. But yeah where I’m com- a- and the other thing about the leftists, and I, I did, I have noticed on other videos, ‘cause I actually decided to at one point study their, their behavior, like what do they say they consume?[00:32:42] And one thing that we know is that the leftists-[00:32:49] Who infiltrated video games, like obviously famously Anita Sarkeesian being caught on film saying, “Well, I don’t really play video games much at all,” Oh, man ... do not consume that type of media. And so the question is if they’re not consuming what they’re creating, like the category of media that they’ve infiltrated, what did leftists actually consume?[00:33:09] And what I found was it’s mostly just the same thing over and over and over again from their childhood. So I mean, they’re still like rewatching Steven Universe or something. They are still rewatching... And part of it is because they’ve become so hyper-sensitized to anything they might see[00:33:32] Help for what?[00:33:34] Simone Collins: Octavian, please. Finish the lessons, okay?[00:33:37] Malcolm Collins: Octavian, Krampus will come.[00:33:40] Oh, yeah, yeah. That, so they, they, they re-watch a lot of the content from their childhood because they become so hyper-sensitized to things that they might find offensive that consuming new forms of media and content- Oh ... is really challenging for them, even when it’s aggressively woke.[00:33:58] Simone Collins: See, I,[00:33:59] Malcolm Collins: I[00:33:59] Simone Collins: just thought it was for the same reason why we consume so much content from the 90, ‘90s, is that it’s just better then.[00:34:04] It’s just so much better.[00:34:05] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it often is a lot better.[00:34:08] Simone Collins: Yeah ...[00:34:09] Malcolm Collins: to the extent that, like, we were watching, what’s the movie that we were watching? I was like, “This feels like a movie from the ‘90s.”[00:34:14] Simone Collins: Hail Mary. Hail Mary, yeah. Yeah, felt like it was from that. It, it... Or, like, and I just hadn’t heard a good original score in so long that it actually stood out to me.[00:34:22] That shouldn’t be a thing. Why, why, you know? That, like, every other score, film score recently has just felt so generic. Like they just are recycling old music. And you can[00:34:32] Malcolm Collins: watch it on Amazon Prime, by the way, if you want. It’s on for, for Prime members. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s long and quite good. I, I’d suggest it for the family.[00:34:40] Simone Collins: Yeah. It made me cry, but I guess I’m in a cry kind of place right now, so.[00:34:45] Malcolm Collins: I[00:34:45] Simone Collins: don’t like when movies make me cry, but in a, it’s okay.[00:34:48] Malcolm Collins: But that, that movie could come out and not be aggressively woke. I mean, when somebody said one of the things that got them about the movie, and I actually agree with this, but I don’t think it’s woke.[00:34:59] I think it’s unfortunately the way it would really be- Mm-hmm ... is they have this council where it’s supposed to be, like, all the top scientists from around the world. Yeah. And it’s, like, clearly got somebody from, like, you know, your African representatives, your, you know, your representatives from, like, Eastern Europe, your representatives from, like, S- South America, your rep-[00:35:17] Simone Collins: That’s what one of these would look like today.[00:35:19] Malcolm Collins: Right. And he’s like, “But really, if w- it, like, if the world was actually under threat, we’d want, like, a bunch of people from America and Israel. Like, let’s be honest here.” Right. Like, is that basically how we’re running the world now? Just, like, the smart people from America and Israel are in the room deciding what happens next.[00:35:37] Simone Collins: I- With the caveat that the smart people from America are actually the smartest people from all around the world. And then the people in Israel are just- True.[00:35:43] Malcolm Collins: I mean, yeah, you get some Indians in there. You get some, you know- Yeah ... we, we, we, this is true. It was a[00:35:47] Simone Collins: lot of the- Like, when you, when you listen to the All-In podcast w- which is some of the most, you know, the world’s most successful investors and VCs, like, the proportion of them that are immigrants to America, huge.[00:35:56] Elon Musk, immigrant to America. So many of these people were not born in America, [00:36:00] and that’s notable.[00:36:02] Malcolm Collins: Where, where, where were, where were they, where were they talking?[00:36:05] Well, I think within the next generation that’s where we’re gonna be. I think especially as world economies start collapsing and AI becomes bigger, more and more of just ignoring the rest of the world is gonna become the norm. Just being like, “We do not need you on this project. We will give you some of our AI money to keep you alive if you’re nice.”[00:36:20] Simone Collins: Oh, gosh.[00:36:21] Malcolm Collins: And now we can add the caveat because we’re Republicans, if you’re nice. The Democrats would give bo- money to people who don’t even like us. In, in fact, we should send no money to countries that have negative favorability of the United States. I don’t care how much suffering there is in that country.[00:36:35] Yeah,[00:36:35] Simone Collins: that, that feels right. That feels very fair.[00:36:38] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. You have to, you have to vote on the surveys we love America if you want aid. Certain, certain aid thresholds, like n- 90% or something, and then you get, then you get aid. But anyway, the wider point here being is I think that we are in a very important cultural moment where new forms of art and media are being defined, new artistic languages are being defined.[00:37:02] Oh, and the point I was going to make is I think part of the thing that got the right into all of this, that made the right productive with these types of artistic assets, is a number of influential people on the right just sat down and intentionally decided to inspire people. When the first Sky Browse video went viral, that went viral, the Elon video- Ah[00:37:29] When, when I saw that video, I, I immediately shared it with Simone. It didn’t feel like something I was aware was possible with AI technology at the time. I saw that, and I was like, “This is catchy, entertaining, culturally on point for somebody like me. I feel like heard. I, I’m, I’m compelled by this.[00:37:54] I feel like this person culturally gets me,” right? Mm. And then the next video comes out, and this is when he started adding in even more streamers and stuff like that, and it was streamers who I know we overlap heavily with or I’ve done collabs with or whatever. And then I feel even more like, and a lot of people see, like, oh, you- you’re, like, looking at my inbox.[00:38:17] You’re looking at my YouTube video feed. You get this perception of a shared cultural identity from the video. And then from that, because then streamers decided to react to this, then other people started producing videos mimicking aspects of the stylistic element, but building on them.[00:38:39] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:38:39] Malcolm Collins: And that is what led to the explosion of the online AI music video phenomenon.[00:38:47] Now we’re in a secondary category of building, which where I talked about Leaflet Sitting down and saying, like, “I am going to make this game to show you how good AI is at vibe coding, how quickly it can create something,” is intentionally about activating our base to get off their butts and start creating stuff because now we can consume each other’s content.[00:39:13] Every you know, Holy Ball or Skybrow, there’s a new guy that I’ve been liking who did a good video on K-Nucks or Nucksuckin or something, a fantastic song.[00:39:21] Speaker 5: A secret door if you think you’ve seen it all Always crab on, on, on. No permission[00:39:32] Malcolm Collins: Every song of theirs that we consume that our kids hear is an urban monoculture is a, a big media song they’re not hearing. And as we begin to produce more full-length anime, which I expect we’ll start seeing in our community within probably the next year every one of those I consume is something of the urban monocultures I’m not consuming, right?[00:39:54] The more content creators we get in our space of that variety, the more we can... And this is [00:40:00] something you see with RFAB, which is also a new way of building and building a company. People have shown the meme when they’re talking about rfab.ai, which is our site, of, oh, it’s like one of those guns which has, like, a knife taped on it and, like, a, a, the spatula and, like, a...[00:40:17] because of all the different things, whether it’s you know, the AI for recipe generation or the AI for narrative DMing or the, the site that searches all not safe for work image bureaus at the same time or all not safe for work you- video sites or all torrent sites at the same time and strips all the a- annoyingness and ads out of the torrent sites or all of the...[00:40:36] That one, by the way, needs the Bridge app to be running in your browser for it to work. By the way, when was the last time you tested the Bridge app?[00:40:42] Simone Collins: I need to test it again.[00:40:44] Malcolm Collins: Okay, you need to test it before- There’s an echo Okay I hear a slight echo from you, but you need to test it before you go downstairs ‘cause that means it’s been days.[00:40:51] Ooh. And I had done the upload from my end. I just need to see that it opens.[00:40:58] Simone Collins: So you want me to download it and reinstall ...[00:41:00] Malcolm Collins: yeah, just download it and open it. See if you can open it. Sure. That’s all, that’s all I need to see. If it opens, it works. It’s, it’s more of an authentification issue to make sure that that was correctly applied.[00:41:09] Simone Collins: Okay.[00:41:13] Malcolm Collins: But the point being is, is it’s all of these different products, and there’s, like, three or four products in the site that are in the works now that you guys haven’t seen yet. You’ve got the hardware feature, which I’ve mentioned. We’ve got a tutoring feature for kids. We’ve got a a feature w- that it, you know, does email consolidation.[00:41:32] I’ve got a video streaming feature. I’ve got a video editing feature that auto-edits videos for production. And what, what combines everything on the site, like the Vtuber creation, it’s that it’s stuff that at some point was interested in somebody in our community. They’re either fans... Like, a fan asked me, he goes, “Malcolm, can you make a feature that can turn text into audio and determine who’s speaking and use different speakers?”[00:41:55] And I’m like, “Fine,” and that’s live on the site right now. S-[00:41:59] Simone Collins: Yes. That’s good. That’s 80%. Good job, buddy.[00:42:05] Malcolm Collins: Keep going. Tell him to keep going so Krampus doesn’t get him. Daddy[00:42:07] Simone Collins: says keep going, okay? You’re doing great. I’m really proud of you.[00:42:13] Malcolm Collins: Okay.[00:42:13] Simone Collins: Thank you, my friend. Thank you for focusing. ,[00:42:17] Malcolm Collins: Talking about the new type of website. Yeah. But I think that this is where companies are going in the age when you can just summon any AI you want, right? To make any product you want, is we’re sort of developing in our community a degree of cultural siloing- Hmm[00:42:32] in terms of the products that we’re making, right? Like, I don’t work on actually making the AI models, but if you’re on our site, you can use the Rhodes model, which has been trained to be super based, right? What by, by a fan. So I’m gonna be able to put that in as an API. Leaflet doesn’t spend a lot of her time making utility software like VTuber rigs and stuff like this but she spends a ton of time on her music videos.[00:42:59] You know, if you look at the Skybrows. Skybrows, I, and I can’t make videos like the ones he makes. I, I just don’t take the time- No, he’s so good ... to develop those skills yet. And-[00:43:09] Simone Collins: Well, and he also has a very distinct style. It is definitely a human plus AI thing, ‘cause you, you can tell even just from listening to it if it’s a Skybrows video from various flourishes that he maintains throughout his all, all of his songs.[00:43:20] I love it.[00:43:22] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So the point being is that the way that each of us have taken to our role and building out our role is quite culturally unique for each of us, and the company that is just building products that are useful in your life and will hopefully be useful in the lives of people like you, I think is like the next thing.[00:43:45] And if you notice on RFAB, if we’re not ch- being charged for something, we always offer it for free. You know, whether it’s the tip feature or the image app that I made, that I am actually... I use it regularly. It’s a really useful app [00:44:00] for me. And it also automatically, like, unzips things for you, although I think that feature might be partially broken.[00:44:05] I’ve gotta figure out what’s going on with that one. So I’ll get to that, but that’s less important than the hardware. I really wanna get the hardware so I can get a, a school going for Octavian.[00:44:12] Yes.[00:44:13] And for you, our fans.[00:44:16] Yes.[00:44:16] And super cheap, too. Because I’m gonna get this so you can, you know, flash it yourself.[00:44:20] But the point here being is this is a new culture. The way RFAB is structured is culturally totally unique compared to the way a normal website would be structured. You know, offer one product, lean on your core competency, not build additional features whenever you have an idea, right? But that’s, I think, where we’re going.[00:44:40] And it’s the same with, with, with generation. Somebody gets an idea to do something, like, you know, Leaf, “Oh, I’m gonna make a video. I wanna be...” Like with Leaflet it’s, “I always wanted to be a an idol girl,” right? Like, “Wouldn’t that be fun?” And it’s like, now I can just be an idol, right? And us- People who are in leadership within the c- community diving in so aggressively to this technology, I think makes the community feel empowered, and thus dive in themselves, which allows for this shared culture of content creation to be born and normalized, which I’m really excited about.[00:45:17] Agreed.[00:45:18] Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, and to me it’s, it’s just a way to really easily visualize techno-feudalism as it starts to roll out, that there are these trust networks that are very distinct and interesting, that I think I wouldn’t have expected to be able to see earlier, but now you can literally see them through the cameos of the Skybrow cinematic universe videos.[00:45:43] And you can see the overlapping of different communities, how they relate to each other, just by seeing who makes cameos, who makes guest appearances. And this is the most artistic and interesting and fun, succinct way to see it. It’s just super cool.[00:45:56] Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, we are defining likely what’s going to be the future of AI culture.[00:46:01] Yeah. The way AI[00:46:02] Simone Collins: art is shared. Yeah, because it’s not just, “Oh, these are fan communities.” What most of these creators do is serve as the filter through which their audiences come to understand reality. Like, Malcolm and I were just talking earlier about a crime or, like, court case that’s taking place involving a woman and murder, and both of us understand it through the lens of an Asmongold video.[00:46:27] Like, we haven’t read original coverage of it. So this is important because these are people that are influencing pretty significantly the way that people consume, understand, and contextualize world events.[00:46:37] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And I think that’s, that’s what I wanna talk about. Yeah, I mean, I, I just I don’t, I, I cannot, like, say, and I, I, I hope our fans, our audience truly gets how astonishingly blessed our movement is to have no competent opposition.[00:47:00] Simone Collins: Hmm.[00:47:00] Malcolm Collins: I mean, other than the elites that control every institution in our society. Yeah. But they’re not competent. And that is why we will be able to steamroll the next generation of culture. We’ve just got to keep at it. And for all of you, what I’d encourage is if you haven’t gotten to explore how y- you can use AI to fix some problem you have in your daily life, dive into that.[00:47:30] Simone Collins: Absolutely.[00:47:32] Malcolm Collins: Because-[00:47:32] Simone Collins: It’s intimidating, but I think it’s worth it to do[00:47:34] Malcolm Collins: This is so good. I just want to get one.[00:47:37] Simone Collins: You[00:47:37] Malcolm Collins: answer- If I do it hard.[00:47:39] Simone Collins: All right. Okay. Oh. I’ll accept that. I, oh, yep, th- I’ll accept that. Okay. Text. Text, text wants really to start school. You did good. You did good. I think Alia’s outside if you wanna go check.[00:47:50] Malcolm Collins: Oh, okay. Thanks.[00:47:51] Simone Collins: Yeah. I love you, buddy.[00:47:53] Malcolm Collins: Can I stop doing lessons? Yes,[00:47:53] Simone Collins: you can stop.[00:47:55] Malcolm Collins: Thanks.[00:47:55] Simone Collins: You kept your promise, and that is... You can leave it right there.[00:47:58] Malcolm Collins: Oh, right on top of[00:47:59] Simone Collins: this? I [00:48:00] believe so, yes.[00:48:01] Malcolm Collins: Okay, thanks. All[00:48:02] Simone Collins: right. Love you, buddy. Love you too. Promise keeper. Oh, wait, that has a political charge, doesn’t it?[00:48:09] No, that’s the Oath Keepers, right? What am I thinking here?[00:48:14] Malcolm Collins: Ugh. Whatever. Th- this, this is low effort parenting right here. Terrify your kid with monsters into finishing lessons while you’re off doing[00:48:21] Simone Collins: other things. This is how bad it is, though. I won’t name names, but a, a friend’s kid stopped by our house this morning, and I was just like, “Oh, hey,” like- Ooh[00:48:29] “you want anything to drink?” Like, “Okay, well, I’m gonna go in and work,” and then I, I get this call, and no, it turns out, like, there’s a panicked search for this child. I should’ve, like, stopped and detained the child, and I guess called the associated adults. But I just see a child on their own, like-[00:48:46] Malcolm Collins: And you’re like-[00:48:47] I’m overboard ... “Hey, you[00:48:47] Simone Collins: want something to drink?[00:48:48] Malcolm Collins: You wanna-”[00:48:48] Simone Collins: And I’m[00:48:49] like, “Hey, how’s it going? You wanna hang out for a while?” Like, I’m,[00:48:53] we’re so now normalizing to our, like, free range parenting and just kids- ... coming and going, hanging out, that I’m just like, “Oh, hey, hi,” and I don’t realize that there’s probably a, a growing search party of panicked adults.[00:49:07] Are we gonna be that[00:49:08] Malcolm Collins: house to hang out at?[00:49:10] Simone Collins: I could see that happening, yeah[00:49:12] Malcolm Collins: I mean, we’re fortunate in that our oldest kid is an incredibly popular person. Octavian is very popular with, like, everyone he spends time with.[00:49:20] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:49:20] Malcolm Collins: Just[00:49:20] Simone Collins: loves them all.[00:49:21] Malcolm Collins: He, he statted into 10s in charisma. Maybe not 10s in smarts, but definitely 10s in charisma.[00:49:28] Simone Collins: I’m actually very impressed with him. And when you think, when, when... We, we, we joke with him about, like, his technical scores with some legacy schooling, but you and I had exactly the same delays.[00:49:43] Malcolm Collins: Mm. Yeah, but I’m a genius.[00:49:47] Simone Collins: Yeah. My- He might be a genius too. Look, I’m just saying, like, I had exactly... Like, my teachers were calling my parents and all that, and I don’t know, I turned out okay.[00:49:59] Oh, no.[00:50:04] Malcolm Collins: I love you[00:50:06] Simone Collins: Okay, I love you too. Torsten, though he probably will have changed his mind by the time he comes in tonight, had requested grilled cheese sandwiches tonight. Would you like grilled cheese sandwiches? Sure. Like one grilled cheese sandwich and one hot dog? Like, I don’t know, what do you want?[00:50:23] Malcolm Collins: Like a grilled cheese sandwich and a half?[00:50:26] Simone Collins: Yeah, you always want one and a half grilled cheese sandwiches. And no hot dogs?[00:50:31] Malcolm Collins: Do we have any tomato soup left?[00:50:33] Simone Collins: No, no. That would’ve been like growing an entirely new species by now. It is... It, it was consumed. It was consumed by collectively the family when they were convalescing here.[00:50:46] Malcolm Collins: W- do we have any like deli meat?[00:50:50] Simone Collins: No, we don’t have deli meats, but we do have the caramelized pork. We have Burmese mint chicken. We have one more bowl if memory serves. We have that cashew cream curry. We have-[00:51:04] Malcolm Collins: No, no. I’ll just have, I’ll just have the I’ll just have[00:51:07] Simone Collins: the, the- One and a half grilled cheese sandwiches?[00:51:09] Malcolm Collins: One and a half grilled cheese[00:51:10] Simone Collins: sandwiches. All these gourmet things I batch prepped-[00:51:12] Malcolm Collins: Okay, okay, okay ... and you want- One and a half with a, a small amount of[00:51:16] Simone Collins: cashew curry can go on it. They, they come in allotments once I freeze them.[00:51:21] Malcolm Collins: Then one allotment of cashew curry.[00:51:23] Simone Collins: With a, a grilled cheese sandwich?[00:51:25] And[00:51:27] Malcolm Collins: just one grilled cheese sandwich then.[00:51:28] Simone Collins: Okay. Sorry about my allotments. I’m so sorry. I know I drive you nuts, but I love you.[00:51:39] Malcolm Collins: I’m gonna murder you one day. That’s, that’s-[00:51:42] Simone Collins: Yeah, well, you know, you’re gonna need someone to take care of these noodles, and someone woke me up by kicking me at 4:00 in the morning repeatedly.[00:51:51] Malcolm Collins: I literally just woke you up by- Face ... kicking you in the face.[00:51:54] Simone Collins: Yeah, so you know, welcome to my world.[00:51:58] Malcolm Collins: All right, love you to death, Simone. Love you too. Have [00:52:00] a wonderful day, and let’s try to get to bed early.[00:52:03] Simone Collins: Yes, I would like that. Would you like that? Would you like that?[00:52:09] Malcolm Collins: Although I’m not going to bed until I figure out these cucking systems.[00:52:14] Come on.[00:52:14] Simone Collins: You’ll get it. You’ll get it. I’ll, I’ll give you some, some time with the dinner prep ‘cause I have to somehow grab and hose off all the kids and check them for ticks. Right. Bye.[00:52:24] Malcolm Collins: Bye.[00:52:25] Simone Collins: Tex the hunk biscuit[00:52:27] Malcolm Collins: The hunk biscuit is what you’re calling him now?[00:52:29] We got building- Ooh ... RFAB devices that you’ll be able to just... With this one you can just, with magnets, just like stick it on your fridge, and it can watch what you’re doing and talk to you and, and go through it all with you.[00:52:39] And then this one’s just audio to audio. And I’m building an auto flasher on the system, so you won’t even need to buy these through us. I can just give you the name of the product, and you can buy this for, like, 40 bucks if you want it with video and video. And then this one is, like, 19 bucks, and it’s just, like, audio to audio, and you could have these all over your house or whatever.[00:53:01] Give them to your kids. I mean, that’s what we’re using this for is I’m gonna turn it into an educator. Because I got tired of, of having to parent. You know, I don’t wanna do that anymore. We, we had the kid, you know, and every day. So let’s see.[00:53:12] Simone Collins: The kid, they don’t go away. Mm-hmm. They aren’t going home.[00:53:16] Why are they not leaving? They’re like the guest that never departs. It’s gonna take a while, Malcolm. Especially since you and I are kind of bullish on having them here as newlyweds. Like, it’s, it’s actually... If they’re like... If they’re newlyweds going through- Mm ... college or university or some kind of professional training program or getting their business off the ground As long as they’re contributing- Yeah[00:53:39] All right, what’s going on up here?[00:53:48] What have you done? What is this? Oh,[00:53:56] Andy, why aren’t you in the chair? How have you jerry-rigged it?[00:54:04] You’re so silly. Look[00:54:20] Thank you for eating toast, Eve. I’ll get some shorts on you This is a public episode. 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In this explosive Based Camp episode, Malcolm and Simone Collins break down the German Catholic Church’s controversial Synodal Way — a major national synod that responded to sex scandals by pushing radical progressive reforms with overwhelming 90%+ bishop support. From blessings for same-sex unions and transgender record changes to women’s ordination, reevaluating celibacy, and even creating a parallel “permanent synod council” governance structure, the German bishops openly defied the Vatican.The Collins compare this to the recent SSPX excommunications, dive into Catholic history (including crusader popes, corruption, and institutional capture), discuss BDSM/queer Catholic events, and explore whether the Church can be saved or if a new path is needed. A must-watch for anyone following religion, culture wars, fertility, and institutional decay.Episode Transcript[00:00:00] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, so when I say coup, this is... This really happened.[00:00:05] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:00:07] Malcolm Collins: If you’re like, “How far will they go?”[00:00:09] Look at these 90% votes we’re seeing here. And the reason we’re talking about this right after the SSPX thing is I want to show the way the Vatican reacts when progressives do something demonstrably worse, but in the ex- same, same directionality as what SSPX is doing. When I say we, I see the Catholics who do not want this as our genuine allies in this journey, right?[00:00:36] Would you like to know more?[00:00:37] Malcolm Collins: Hello, Simona. I’m excited to be here with you today. I had a shocking event. So we did an episode on the Catholic Church expelling some of its most devoted bishops- Yeah[00:00:50] well, when they were ordained bishops, for being SSPX. And, you know, we were like, “This is fairly mainstream conservatism within the Catholic Church. They don’t really hold that many radical beliefs.” And somebody was like, “Oh, you don’t know anything about Catholic history.[00:01:06] You need to read more about recent Catholic history to really have a perspective on this.” And I think that that was the dumbest thing you could have told me to do, if you wanted me to have- Oh, no ... like-[00:01:15] Simone Collins: Yeah. What were you[00:01:17] Malcolm Collins: thinking? Literally every time I look at Catholic history, it’s like,[00:01:20][00:01:24] Malcolm Collins: when you put a cucumber next to a cat, and it, like, turns and looks at it and flies in the air like, “Oh, my God.”[00:01:30][00:01:33] Malcolm Collins: But today- Oh, no ... we’re going to talk about the craziest event that I’ve ever heard of, where they basically tried to create a break-off gay Catholic church that r- had sort of a different governing system than the main Catholic Church, different beliefs and different rules than the main Catholic Church.[00:01:54] Hold[00:01:54] Simone Collins: on. This sounds really fun.[00:01:56] Malcolm Collins: And it all started in the craziest way possible, too.[00:02:01] Simone Collins: So[00:02:02] Malcolm Collins: they had all these sex scandals, okay? Yeah. And so in response to the sex scandals, and this was the second-biggest convention in response to the sex scandals. This was not, like, some small whatever thing. This was for the entire national priesthood in, in Germany.[00:02:18] Mm-hmm. So they, they put on this giant Germany-wide, like, for what Catholics believe in Germany event about what to do about all of the you know, child situation, right?[00:02:30] Simone Collins: Wasn’t this a South Park episode?[00:02:33] Malcolm Collins: B- South Park basically had a thing on this. Now, the biggest thing they did in response to this was the thing they did at the Vatican, but this was the second biggest.[00:02:39] Simone Collins: Okay.[00:02:39] Malcolm Collins: And so what they decided to do, and what this conference turned into, and I kid you not, we’re gonna go into the details. If you’re Catholic and you already know, you’re like, “Oh, no, “ they immediately started... And I, and I like Catholics. I’m, I’m pro-Catholic.[00:02:56] I like gays, okay? But I think that w- if you were looking at these events-[00:03:02] So they got them all together to solve this issue.[00:03:05] And the things that they started drafting were things like we should change trans people’s genders when they get in their like confirmation files. Uh-huh. We should start blessing same-sex unions. We should start normalizing priests having sex even recreational sex. And- Wait,[00:03:27] Simone Collins: but within marriage or not within marriage?[00:03:29] Malcolm Collins: Just sex. They, they- Just- ... weren’t interested in, in priests getting married. They were interested in removing the celibacy stuff. We should start- But[00:03:37] Simone Collins: isn’t it sinful per the Catholicism to have sex outside marriage?[00:03:41] Malcolm Collins: No, no, no. That was another thing that they wanted to address-[00:03:44] Simone Collins: Uh-huh ...[00:03:44] Malcolm Collins: to remind people very clearly that it is not a sin to have sex outside of marriage.[00:03:49] Simone Collins: Remind?[00:03:50] Malcolm Collins: They, well, they believed that this was the correct teaching. And they w- wanted to start a separate... And I should note here, if you’re like, “Oh, this was like some [00:04:00] fringe loonies or whatever,” there, there were two cardinals involved. One cardinal basically ran this. There were hundreds of bishops involved.[00:04:08] And despite all of this, S- SSPX says we want Latin mass and think that you’re being a little too ecum- ecumenical. They get excommunicated. Okay? Oh my God. This event, they ran this multiple years.[00:04:21] And I want to point out that the Vatican told them at one point, like, “Hey, you guys are saying the quiet part out loud a little too much.” Because at this event, many of these crazy things I’m talking about had over a 90% vote from the bishops.[00:04:36] Simone Collins: Oh,[00:04:36] Malcolm Collins: wow. But, but the Vatican said, “You cannot keep doing this.[00:04:40] This is a threat,” to the same thing they said that SSPX was a threat to- Oh, no ... the church’s unity. This is a threat to the church’s unity. And they just ignored the Vatican and kept doing it, no excommunications[00:04:52] Simone Collins: Okay[00:04:53] Malcolm Collins: So-[00:04:54] Simone Collins: Was it, what, did, did you see anything about their justification where they like, “Look, whatever it takes.”[00:04:59] We’re gonna go over- “We’re hemorrhaging numbers.” Quotes.[00:05:01] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yeah. We’re gonna go over quotes of their justification.[00:05:04] Simone Collins: Okay.[00:05:04] Malcolm Collins: We’re gonna go over like why they thought they were doing this, where they thought they were getting the backing for this stuff, like why they thought this was an okay thing to do at all.[00:05:13] Mm-hmm. How close they came to creating a counter Catholic government to specifically oppose the norm set up by the Vatican. And we’ll also look at with current voting numbers in terms of, because I think Catholics sometimes forget how far left the bishop class of the church actually is.[00:05:31] Simone Collins: Hmm.[00:05:32] Malcolm Collins: What would happen if they actually tried to do a Vatican III? Because a lot of people think it would push back. We’ll go into the numbers and see if it actually would. And I wanna go into all of this by pointing out- We as people are fairly pro-gay for conservatives, right? Like, I’m like, I don’t think that it should be outlawed.[00:05:47] Do what you wanna do, whatever. That, g- that said while I think that, that’s from my reading of the Bible. That’s not a traditional Catholic interpretation, right? Yeah. Like, and to say that this should be normalized within a traditional Catholic context is quite different than me being like, look, I like gays.[00:06:07] I like Catholics. Do I think that this should be pushed to be normalized in the church? Especially the trans stuff, when we now know how harmful this is. See any of our other episodes on that. That’s where I’m like, wow, this is crazy. And if you wanna get an idea of how crazy all of this is in Germany, I will read to you a article that came out, I think just, like, two days ago.[00:06:30] Major Catholic event in Germany features BDSM and lesbian groups.[00:06:36] Simone Collins: Wait, like, an act- m- not that, like, the Catholic Church also appeared at an event where there was...[00:06:43] Malcolm Collins: no. A number of Catholic bishops, including Bishop Franz Wong Wo- Woensberg co-host an event. So a major Catholic event in Germany will feature BDSM and lesbian Catholic groups.[00:06:53] The German Katholiktag, or Catholics’ Day, will take place from, literally called Catholics’ Day, M- May 14th to May 16th in Woensberg, and will prominently feature several heterodox groups. Now, again, I’m okay with BDSM, right? Like, I’m totally okay with it. Well,[00:07:09] Simone Collins: and if there’s a religion that wants to pull off the aesthetics of BDSM, I mean...[00:07:14] Malcolm Collins: You do have a point there with mortification- Can[00:07:15] Simone Collins: you do better? Yeah ... and everything.[00:07:17] Malcolm Collins: It’s perfect. Have the mortification tent and the BDSM tent right next to each other.[00:07:21] Simone Collins: It’s perfect. Come on. For[00:07:22] Malcolm Collins: 50 bucks. They’re, they’re selling the same good.[00:07:24] Simone Collins: It’s[00:07:25] Malcolm Collins: perfect. And you can s- you can see who’s adding a margin on the traditional, no for people who are unfamiliar with mortification, some traditional, more extremist Catholic s- groups do forms of like, self-flagellation. Or the more common stuff today is, like, tight things you, like, put around your ankles and stuff like this that hurt you a bit.[00:07:40] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:07:40] Malcolm Collins: Just to, like, remind you to be...[00:07:43] I actually think it’s a great thing. I’m, I’m fairly pro-mortification. Yeah. But they use some of the s- instruments that have been borrowed by or convergently evolved by the BDSM community.[00:07:53] Simone Collins: And often people within the BDSM community kind of use a lot of these methods for the same thing. I mean, they’re like, “Well, it reminds me of my [00:08:00] master, but my master makes me a better person,” blah, blah, blah.[00:08:02] But, like, master, God, like it’s all... Yeah, I mean[00:08:07] Malcolm Collins: Yeah.[00:08:07] Simone Collins: But- There’s a, there’s a horseshoe that really gets close at the ends there.[00:08:11] Malcolm Collins: But I can, I can, like, m- me, as somebody who’s, like, okay with all of these things individually-[00:08:19] Simone Collins: Mm ...[00:08:19] Malcolm Collins: is saying, just to understand, like, how outside of what should be happening this is, I’m like, this is shocking to me.[00:08:27] You should not be mixing the Folsom Street Fair and a celebration called Catholics Day.[00:08:32] Simone Collins: I mean, at the same time, though, as a s- as an outsider who didn’t grow up in the Catholic Church, it just seems to work. It seems so right. The[00:08:43] Malcolm Collins: Catholic schoolgirl outfit, all that, yeah. I[00:08:45] Simone Collins: mean, like, actually, think about it.[00:08:47] I mean, and that’s, but I, the, that the idea would come from within the church, though, is shocking. That doesn’t check out. That’s very strange. Yeah.[00:08:58] Malcolm Collins: Oh gosh, you wanna hear one of the, the, the groups that’s participating?[00:09:01] Simone Collins: Yes.[00:09:02] Malcolm Collins: Ecumenical work groups on BDSM and Christianity.[00:09:05] Simone Collins: What[00:09:05] Malcolm Collins: but like[00:09:06] Simone Collins: actually though, that’s just[00:09:08] Malcolm Collins: what I was talking about.[00:09:09] And it, it’s gonna have its own, it’s gonna have its own tent at the church mile. Oh. But no, you saying actually, I know you say this as a joke, Simone, but the reality is-[00:09:18] Simone Collins: No, I, I also mean it very earnestly.[00:09:21] Malcolm Collins: There is so much connection ... the reality is, is, is that you joking about this, or acting like it’s not a big deal that this is happening, is why the rot has been able to get so far within Catholicism- Hmm[00:09:31] and why the religion is dying. Hmm. Because you’re treating things that should not be considered a joke, a joke. Right? Like this is their religious and cultural identity, and it is being both really deviantly subverted, right? Like, in a way that is, I think, quite alarming.[00:09:51] Simone Collins: I’m, okay, counterpoint, counterpoint.[00:09:54] The Catholic Church has a long and storied history of attempting to grow by I guess its, its religious version of colonization involves saying, “Oh, you worship these local folk gods? No, that’s just the Virgin Mary. It just got a[00:10:08] Malcolm Collins: little confused.” And what happened as a result of that? Now C- now Catholics are a bunch of idolaters- I know[00:10:13] who worship statues and shrines.[00:10:15] Simone Collins: I know. I’m just saying- No, like- ... this stems back farther than you think, right? They’re just doing the same thing they did- No,[00:10:20] Malcolm Collins: no,[00:10:20] Simone Collins: no,[00:10:20] Malcolm Collins: no, but I’m saying, the point I’m making is I think even most Catholics, like, not all Catholics are idolaters, but they’re, if you’re a Catholic, you fully realize there is a faction or subsect of Catholicism- Yeah[00:10:34] that absolutely took these local gods- Mm-hmm ... and now essentially, while, you know, on the surface Christian, are essentially pagans. You see- So[00:10:44] Simone Collins: in other words, it was, it was a mistake for, for the Catholic Church to think, oh, that you can just be like, “No, no, no, like we, we do believe the same thing.” And, and because they don’t.[00:10:55] They don’t. They’re idolatrous. They don’t. They should have come in and been like, “You’re super, super wrong. Here’s why. Here’s a better way.” And they didn’t do that. They took the lazy way- They didn’t[00:11:05] Malcolm Collins: do that,[00:11:05] Simone Collins: and the church- ... of being like, “No, we all really agree,” and that’s not true.[00:11:08] Malcolm Collins: I mean, right now the church is fighting really hard in Mexico, the Church of Saint Muerte, right?[00:11:14] And-[00:11:15] Simone Collins: Yeah ...[00:11:15] Malcolm Collins: or the Cult of Saint Muerte I guess you’d call them, because they believe they’re Catholics. And these are- People who believe that they are Catholics- Mm ... who w- worship alongside, a saint that is made of human bones, a, a human skeleton dressed in red that you pray for things to that you would be embarrassed to ask Christ for.[00:11:40] Like wanting somebody dead or wanting someone to, th- forced to have sex with you or fall in love with you, right? Like, anyone can look at this on the outside and be like, “Ha! I know what that is. The human bone thing that’s dressed in red and you pray for other people’s death to.” [00:12:00] Right? Like, that is recognizable.[00:12:01] But they didn’t see that as recognizable because someone like you at some point along the chain said, “Hey, let’s try to combine BDSM with mortification” and then it got incepted into the movement, and now they have to stamp it out but they can’t because parts of these groups have made it all the way to the top.[00:12:20] Simone Collins: Yeah. That’s so funny. ‘Cause when I was a, a kid in school, the lesson was definitely, “Oh, they did this thing where they just told everyone around the world, ‘No, no, no, we believe the same thing,’ and they just changed names”, and that that it worked. They said that was very effective.[00:12:37] Malcolm Collins: If you go to the Catholic groups across Africa right now, they all, like, believe in witches and stuff, right?[00:12:43] Like-[00:12:43] Simone Collins: Yeah ...[00:12:44] Malcolm Collins: if you look at the relative ability, first[00:12:46] Simone Collins: of all- Well, m- probably not they all. I bet there are some very devout, we’ll, we’ll say to the,[00:12:49] Malcolm Collins: Okay, some ... high[00:12:50] Simone Collins: fidelity version of-[00:12:51] Malcolm Collins: I’m talking on average, right?[00:12:52] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah.[00:12:53] Malcolm Collins: Now this isn’t to say that in Protestant parts of Africa they do not also still have some of those beliefs, but generally speaking, this belief that this tactic, that yes, the Catholic Church did historically demonstrably use they’d be like, “Oh, so it was the locals say.[00:13:07] It’s a little different name for this,” or whatever, right? One, doesn’t seem to have actually helped them with conversions in regions.[00:13:13] Simone Collins: Mm.[00:13:14] Malcolm Collins: When we look at the regions that the Protestants settled they generally seem to have converted at the same rate as the regions that Catholics settled. But well- I will note that there is one minor difference in the two regions which is typically the regions that the Protestants settled today, and we don’t know how this happened, big mystery- Okay[00:13:39] but they’re mostly predominantly Northern European today. Like, the United States and Canada and Australia and New Zealand. Whereas the Catholic regions are more mixed today. Not, not, not saying anything bad happened there, I’m just saying it’s a weird pattern. But it, it... There’s actually a lot of, like, we could go into, like, why.[00:14:03] We have another episode, actually, the Is Slavery Moral episode, where we talk about- Oh, yeah ... essentially why this happened. Mm. Th- that cursed lore there as well. But where, where was I, where was I going with this? It doesn’t actually seem to have helped them convert local populations. Mm. But it has had major negative effects on the populations that they converted in terms of the way that they practice their religion.[00:14:27] Simone Collins: So if we were put, to put this in VC terms, they basically were a startup like Uber that was able to get tons of customers when they’re like, “Oh, just use our car share app or car riding app. It, like, costs basically nothing. It’s less expensive than a taxi.” And then the VC dollars drive up but they’re like, “Oh, we have this many users.[00:14:47] They all pay.” ‘Cause they pay, like, a little bit. But then ultimately these aren’t people who would actually pay a sustainable profit generating rate to Uber. They, they were not real customers. They were fake customers. And that what happened with all these missionaries was they were just doing the easy fake thing and not actually converting them.[00:15:07] Oh, and of course there’s, like, a version of this in in The Book of Mormon, the Broadway play by Matt Stone and Trey Parker- Yeah ... where one missionary goes to Africa and tries to convert people, and he makes up all these stories ‘cause it’s just, like, more convenient, and they all end up believing this completely weird version of Mormonism that isn’t true at all.[00:15:25] And I’m sure that that happens a lot. When you’re trying to convert someone and you don’t have enough faith yourself in your religion to really sell someone on it or explain the hard parts Yeah, I think you’re gonna take the cheap shot, ‘cause you just wanna look good and get your whatever rewards, your conversion points.[00:15:45] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, so the key pushback I have on you is, no, we shouldn’t be normalizing this stuff. You know? No,[00:15:50] Simone Collins: that’s fair. That’s fair.[00:15:51] Malcolm Collins: Religions have rules and beliefs, and they have them for a reason, and if you just update it to whatever [00:16:00] mainstream urban monoculture academic elites think should be the normative...[00:16:04] This isn’t to say that religions and belief systems shouldn’t evolve over time, but if that evolution isn’t driven by what drives thriving within the population, which these are not, right? Like- Well,[00:16:16] Simone Collins: yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, the, the, the, I’m not trying to say this is a good thing for the religion. What I’m saying is there’s something that narratively just makes so much sense that’s in a very satisfying way.[00:16:27] But when we’re talking about religion, only hard religions impart fitness. Only the religions that, that obligate people to do the hard thing and be disciplined and do the right hard thing even when it’s, it’s difficult and costly and painful are going to be the ones that survive. ‘Cause a religion that’s just like, “Oh, don’t worry about it,” like, “It’s okay, it’s fine,” that’s not gonna create people who step up to challenges as challenges arise.[00:16:52] And over time- Yeah ... they will go extinct. You’re absolutely 100% right. And ultimately, BDSM is a movement that is built around wasting time and pleasure, but primarily wasting time. You gotta get the gear, you gotta go over the rule book. It is ridiculous.[00:17:07] Speaker 5: do we have all the gear, do you think?[00:17:09] Speaker 4: Yeah,[00:17:10] Speaker 5: let’s get the gear.[00:17:11] Speaker 4: Alright, hike. Yeah.[00:17:16] Speaker 5: What if it rains?[00:17:17] Speaker 4: You right. Let’s get the ringer. You know.[00:17:19] Simone Collins: There are so many more efficient[00:17:20] Malcolm Collins: things you can do.[00:17:20] Yeah, but, like, within techno-puritanism, I am totally- Yeah ... okay with using sexuality to draw people in, to look cooler, to look more fun with-[00:17:28] Simone Collins: Sure ...[00:17:28] Malcolm Collins: you know, hot AI anime girls or whatever. Yeah. I am not into giant wastes of time or beginning to identify with particular sexual lifestyles, which is what BDSM is.[00:17:39] Mm. That’s identifying a section of your lifestyle with whatever happens to turn you on, and that leads to negative externalities. But let’s get into the actual event here, because it’s gonna, like, blow your mind that this happened.[00:17:49] Simone Collins: Yeah. Ah.[00:17:51] Malcolm Collins: Okay. So the synod was 230 members including the majority of bishops in Germany at the time.[00:18:00] A- in terms of, there, there were some conservatives who were involved at the beginning, but they mostly opted out, which made- Oh,[00:18:07] Simone Collins: so this is how we got that 90%.[00:18:09] Malcolm Collins: Well, it was still only, like, three or four conservative bishops opted out. It was, it was trivial. Mm. So a lot of them stayed in, and it, it just...[00:18:16] Yeah. So let- let’s go over the various proposals that they came up with of how they were gonna not be as interested in graping children anymore, okay? So proposal number one were blessings for same-sex couple- couples. These were official blessing ceremonies, so not full marriages for both same-sex couples, remarried divorced people, and others in relationships matching non-sacramental marriages.[00:18:42] Simone Collins: The- But kids can’t participate in that. What, what does that have to do with kids?[00:18:46] Malcolm Collins: What do you... I, that’s the entire point. This stuff, basically it was just a l- a grab bag of what ultra progressives wanted and, and, and degen- like degens wanted and nothing to do with what cons- like what actually addressed the problem.[00:18:59] Simone Collins: Wow.[00:19:00] Malcolm Collins: It was like somebody w- they were like, “Come into the room,” and people were just like, “Oh, what’s all of the stuff I can change about the church?” The moment they had some big crisis. Mm. This one got 90 to 95% approval in terms of voters. Th- the next one was a reevaluation of the church teaching on a, a gay lifestyles.[00:19:20] Mm-hmm. They wanted a quote-unquote “magisterial reassessment” of g- gay, gay lifestyles. A call for revising and updating catechism passages, e.g. 235-7 and 235-9, and integrating quote-unquote “modern science/theology” for greater acceptance. This got an 80 to 90% vote. Wow. Now keep in mind, when I’m talking about these, these huge votes here that these things were getting, this happened recently, within the last half decade.[00:19:49] And when people are like, “Oh, we just need to have like a Vatican III to fix all of this,” I’m like, these people would be at Vatican III. Okay? Yeah. Yeah ... so, so be aware. Now, there is a hope, the [00:20:00] hope, well, I’ll just give it away is that the, the, the membership and a, bishops and cardinals that come out of Africa have significantly grown since Vatican II, and they are very conservative.[00:20:10] Simone Collins: Okay ...[00:20:11] Malcolm Collins: and that’s, that’s where, you know, we try, I mean, the conservative faction tried to incept the Catholics to elect a Black guy, and we all wanted what was his name, Sarah[00:20:21] to be elected.[00:20:22] Simone Collins: Oh, yeah. Yes. It was yeah. It was, it was a woman’s sounding name, but yes,[00:20:27] Malcolm Collins: , next one. They wanted women’s ordination. This is the next thing they thought would fix this. Well,[00:20:32] Simone Collins: ah, okay.[00:20:33] Malcolm Collins: So they wanted to-[00:20:34] Simone Collins: No, I mean, women are far less commonly known for having problems with children of that sort.[00:20:43] Malcolm Collins: They’re not, it’s not that unknown.[00:20:46] And- I’d point out that the-[00:20:49] Simone Collins: Statistically- ...[00:20:51] Malcolm Collins: gay nuns were such a phenomenon that I think we’ve done an episode on this where we point out that when post-Vatican II they moved the nunneries closer to the cities nuns began to play a major part in gay female culture to the extent that the same role that biker gangs played for early-[00:21:10] the development of gay male culture Catholic nuns played for the development of lesbian culture, which is why you have so many nun-like aesthetics and sort of fetish-related things within the lesbian community today.[00:21:21] Simone Collins: A UK Home Office study in the late ‘90s found that fewer, less than 5% of child, you know, what offenses were committed by women.[00:21:31] An analysis of Catholic institutional abuse in Australia found that 95% of alleged offenders were men, 5% were women.[00:21:39] Malcolm Collins: Okay, well maybe this would have, have genuinely addressed it, but like-[00:21:42] Simone Collins: Yeah, man. I’m hearing solutions now. Don’t, don’t run a[00:21:45] Malcolm Collins: little[00:21:45] Simone Collins: bit.[00:21:45] Malcolm Collins: But this would be horrible for the Ch- like, when I, when we look at the Anglicans electing a lady pope and[00:21:51] Simone Collins: that,[00:21:51] Malcolm Collins: that causing- Right.[00:21:52] Simone Collins: Right. Yeah. That just likes peace out a huge, like about half of them. A huge...[00:21:54] Malcolm Collins: That would be like auto schism for- That’s crazy ... I think a, a huge portion of- Yeah ... of conservative Catholics. Like, the, the Catholics who are like, “I would never schism,” would you schism as a lady pope? Like, this is my que-[00:22:08] Simone Collins: Whoa, whoa, whoa.[00:22:08] It’s gonna... It would take a very long time for... We still haven’t had a female president in the US, and female suffrage started in what? 1918. So-[00:22:15] Malcolm Collins: Hold it, Simone.[00:22:17] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:22:17] Malcolm Collins: Hold it. It should have taken a very long time with the Anglicans as well, right? Like,[00:22:23] And note here, Anglicans only let women first join the clergy in 1944[00:22:28] Malcolm Collins: you don’t need- Mm-hmm ... a plurality of women in a voting body to elect a woman to signal that now you’re an understanding organization- Mm, yes.[00:22:38] I see ... when you have people who vote like this. And what percent of people wanted to open this? 92%, with 82% of bishops in favor.[00:22:48] Simone Collins: Wow. Okay.[00:22:50] Malcolm Collins: And keep in mind, of the, of the people key people like attending this and stuff like this, there were people with xeno pronouns, there were people with like-[00:22:59] Simone Collins: Really?[00:22:59] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. The, the guy who wrote the documentation for this for accepting the trans people had xeno pronouns. ‘[00:23:10] Simone Collins: Wow. Okay.[00:23:10] Malcolm Collins: Who, who wrote it. Keep in mind, guys, SSPX was excommunicated.[00:23:21] For Latin Mass. Yeah.[00:23:23] Simone Collins: Yep, yep, yep, yep. Hmm.[00:23:25] Malcolm Collins: And you could say, “And disobeying the Pope,” but the Pope also told them not to hold this. No excommunications. Yeah. Okay. Well, at least after the first one. Th- specifically, they wanted to open the di- diaconate and by extension discuss priesthood to women, challenge Ordo Sarca Dotilis or something and called for universal church reexamination.[00:23:47] They wanted to reexamine their transgender policies. Specifically, they wanted concrete improvements for, for transgender people, including updating baptismal records to match [00:24:00] self-identifying gender and mandatory education for clergy, and removing gender identity barriers to ministries.[00:24:06] Speaker: I just love the statement, mandatory education for clergy, because apparently they need additional education in regards to how they deal with gender[00:24:17] Malcolm Collins: So that you could be a priest even if you identify...[00:24:20] Basically, they wanted to open the priesthood to xeno-gender types and transgender types.[00:24:24] Simone Collins: That’s, it’s self ID Catholic Church edition.[00:24:27] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. This had a 96% vote in favor. If you wanna go over how the bishops voted, and keep in mind, this was open to all the bishops in Germany. Hmm. 38 voted yes, with only seven voting no 13 voted in absentia.[00:24:46] Simone Collins: Okay. Wow.[00:24:47] Malcolm Collins: 38 yes to only seven voting no. And then the craziest part was the permanent synod council which we’ll get to in a second. Mm. And this had a 93% vote for.[00:25:01] Simone Collins: Remind me again, whi- what year did this happen? In 2000 something?[00:25:05] Malcolm Collins: I wanna say around 2010. It was sort of, sort of over, like, a 10 or eight-year period they had the number.[00:25:09] The[00:25:09] Simone Collins: one thing that occurs to me now that you’re mentioning that people have things like xeno profou- pronouns and stuff, is that the one family friend who was in an, an order, a, a Carmelite nun when we knew her, when I knew her as a kid, but now she’s a mother had mentioned that as she grew up in the ranks of her convent, an issue they had with novices, women who wanted to enter the convent and become Carmelite nuns, is that many of them just had mental disorders, and they just wanted to opt out of mainstream life, and they didn’t actually care about Catholicism.[00:25:48] And I wonder if one of the issues that the Catholic Church is, is, is fighting, trying to fight, unsuccessfully perhaps, is that a lot of now just mentally ill people are turning to a[00:26:03] Malcolm Collins: career path- I think it’s not just mentally ill people. I think consider what the priesthood offers you. You you, you don’t have to worry about money anymore.[00:26:09] You don’t have to worry about... Y- you know, it’s just, like, you don’t have to worry about a job anymore. You just do- Yeah ... what somebody else tells you to, and everything works out for you, right?[00:26:17] Simone Collins: Yeah, it’s like a different version of entering academia with way more job security.[00:26:21] Malcolm Collins: And you can see why it attracts so many socialists, right?[00:26:23] You know? Mm. And I want to point out here that when I go over these things, some of these I think actually could be good things. I think opening the priesthood to marriage is biblical. You know, in Timothy, we see that to have leadership in the church, you’re supposed to have, It can be read multiple ways.[00:26:42] The way that I think is, like, a, a fair and honest reading of it is you need to be married. The way that Catholics read it is they say that you shouldn’t have a more than one wife which would imply that polyamory is normal within Christianity. Huh. And even so, why would you need to apply that if you were going to have an entire priesthood, and God knew he was gonna do this, where nobody was married, right?[00:27:04] Like, I think a lot of the natalist problems and problems of capture that Catholics have come from the celibate priesthood. So I’m actually for that, right? Yeah. I think they should start getting married and having large families. Like, a- I, I point out, like in every other religion, the most devout person, what do they do?[00:27:19] They end up having the most kids. The most devout Orthodox Jew has the most kids. The most devout Baptist has the most kids. The most devout Catholic has no kids. But I think a lot of them are sometimes just people who wanted to live the lifestyle of a priest or nun. Like not- Mm ... worry about the outside world, which can draw in the socialist, which can draw in the activist type, which is why...[00:27:36] but if you wanna get into what they were saying about all of this, let’s go to Bishop George Batzing, okay? Okay. This is somebody, mind you, not excommunicated. SSPX was excommunicated. He said, “I will not deny God’s blessing for those in committed relationships who are seeking it.” This is with him talking about wanting to bless gay unions.[00:27:56] Mm. Which is rich because he’s also the guy who said, [00:28:00] “Saint- sex outside of marriage is not a sin.” But then later he said, “It’s okay if it’s done with fidelity and responsibility.” And okay? What I find interesting, and I think that people can look at, like, our techno-puritanism and see where we’re strict on things, see where we’re not strict on things and see that we might be significantly stricter on a lot of Christian principles than your average Catholic bishop.[00:28:33] Simone Collins: Wow. I think you’re right.[00:28:37] Malcolm Collins: Which probably rocks people, right? They’re like, “Wow, their - weird religion is...” And we’re pretty, we’re pretty, like, laid out, like, what’s you know, X is a sin, Y is a sin. The reason why we’re less strict than a lot of groups on something like, let’s say gay, right? Is we believe that while gayness is a sin, it’s not as bad a sin as many other sins.[00:28:58] Speaker 2: specifically as to why it’s a sin, it’s because it’s just not the most efficient way to live your life. And when I say gayness, I do not mean, , being same-sex attracted. I mean choosing to base your life around same-sex attraction, choosing to choose your primary partner based around same-sex attraction, , that this dramatically, , impacts your ability to have kids that live on to the next generation.[00:29:24] And I will say, I’ve known so many good and diligent gay people who said, “ Well, I can still make it work.” And I will tell you, out of every single one of them I have met, I haven’t met a single one of them who had a lot of kids, who’s actually contributing to the next generation. , They tried. It just doesn’t seem to work.[00:29:42] Like, the Bible’s advice on this actually appears pretty sound. And, I’m not gonna say, like, I wish that wasn’t the case. It’s just I know a lot of really dedicated same-sex attracted individuals who tried to make it work, and it didn’t work for them, a lot. And it I think making it work is more of a LARP than,[00:30:01] we or society admits[00:30:03] Malcolm Collins: And therefore you can still, like, net be a good person and be right with God while being gay, so long as you accept the negative externalities that may have on your life and, and society and not predominantly identify with a sinful behavioral pattern in the same context as somebody that they primarily identify as a gamer, or they primarily identify as into BDSM, and that’s like their lifestyle.[00:30:28] Well, you’re certainly not living a pr- productive and virtuous lifestyle if you’re dedicating your entire life to that. But so, like, we, we, we say this with caveats but we’re, we’re still broadly, like, it’s not as bad as something like if I was gonna rank it on a, a spectrum of things stealing, white-collar crime regularly lying to people.[00:30:53] Like, I mean, like, th- th- those sorts of things are significantly worse. Yeah. Or being a, a, a straight gooner 24/7, right? Like, that, that would be on a, a worse category, especially if that has an effect on your life where you’re not going out and you’re not being productive. But I’m, I’m saying all of this with the...[00:31:09] But that’s not the Catholic position, right? And even an updated Catholic position that was designed to make the church stronger, I don’t think would look like that. Mm-hmm. I don’t think that that would make the church healthier. To continue here what did Cardinal Reinhard Marx, who was a supporter of this, he said?[00:31:27] He w- he said, “I desire an inclusive church, a church that includes all who want to walk the way of Jesus.” He, he celebrated, quote, “20 years of queer worship and pastoral care.” And keep in mind, you can be like, “This sounds weird to me.” Like, how are these, for example, gay rights activists in the Catholic Church?[00:31:47] And we pointed out that one of the core documents in our episode, the gay Jew who wrote core Catholic doctrine, watch that episode if you haven’t, it’s the craziest thing I ever learned were written by priests who we now [00:32:00] know during the period of writing them were actively having gay sex. And that, that were not just that, but very publicly did more LGBT rights activism than Catholic activism while the church was supporting their lifestyle, paying for them, and everything like that, and they were writing core parts of Vatican II.[00:32:18] And so when you see that, it makes a lot of sense that you’re hearing stuff like this, th- this is normal. And this is again where I think your average Catholic, especially your average like strict Catholic, doesn’t fully grok how extremely socialist and progressive the bishop class of Catholicism is.[00:32:38] Simone Collins: Hmm.[00:32:39] Malcolm Collins: Es- especially in Europe. In the United States, we’ve got people on both sides of the spectrum, but in Europe it is extremely captured. And Europe controls, because they’re closer to the Vatican, a lot of the politics of what’s going on there and what’s coming out of there Hmm. The next one to go from a- another bishop here on women’s ordination.[00:33:02] He said, “The question of,” adding this here, “women’s ordination exists, and it has to be elaborated on and discussed. Popes have tried to say the question is closed, but the fact is that the question exists. Many young women say a church that refuses all of this cannot be my church in the long run. And I hope I will still experience a woman becoming a deacon.[00:33:24] The path to women priests is still long. I wish for it.” So, you know, the, the, the goal isn’t just women in lower positions. It’s moving them up for these people, okay? And keep in mind, this got an over 90% vote from the people who were present at this. Mm-hmm. And then the co- leader, or well, we’ll go to the next one here.[00:33:44] Now the overall governance changes the, one of the leaders of this, Thomas Sternberg, said the process was, n- not in exact words, was designed to create, quote-unquote, “pressure for change.” Quote, “Only through pressure does real change come about.” End quote. And he admitted that it was explicitly structured to avoid easy Vatican prohibition.[00:34:06] Now I’ll be reading here from a Catholic newspaper that did a piece on this about what they were pushing for gover- governmentally. So they were pushing for a permanent synod council, a new national body of bishops plus laity with ongoing decision-making authority over the church in Germany,, seen by the Vatican as undermining bishops’ authority and risking a national church parallel structure.[00:34:32] Simone Collins: Huh.[00:34:33] Malcolm Collins: The Vatican repeatedly attempted to block and restrict this. See, this is so much worse than what SSPX was doing. Nobody got excommunicated over this. Synod Way, which was the name of this whole debacle, votes to establish a permanent synod council to oversee church and diocese in Germany. In a move aimed at achieving what critics compared to a communist council in the Soviet Union, participants of the German Synod Way on Saturday voted to create a synod council that would permanently oversee the church in Germany.[00:35:03] At the fra- permanently oversee the church in Germany, a-[00:35:07] Simone Collins: So is that kind of like how the Orthodox Church works, how there’s the, the p- the patriarchy in, like, Moscow, and then there’s one in Greece, and there’s-[00:35:15] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, basically they wanted the German Church to be sovereign- Yeah ... and to have a separate set of govern- governance body that controlled both the church’s funds in Germany- Yeah[00:35:27] and controlled the church’s beliefs and norms in Germany.[00:35:30] Simone Collins: Wow.[00:35:32] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, so when I say coup, this is... This really happened.[00:35:38] Simone Collins: Or, like, separatist movement. It... Yeah.[00:35:42] Malcolm Collins: Which is wild, that they think with all of the control they have over the Vatican right now, that their faction has, that’s not enough. If you’re like, “How far will they go?”[00:35:51] Look at these 90% votes we’re seeing here. At the Frankfurt meeting on September 10th, the controversial suggestion won almost [00:36:00] 93% of the votes. Only five bishops rejected the document. CNA Deutsch, CNA’s German language partner agency reported, “The permanent synod council would function as a consultative and decision-making body on the essential developments of the church in society,” the German proposed states.[00:36:17] More importantly, it would, quote, “Make fundamental decisions of separate diocesan significance on pastoral planning, questions of the future of budgetary matters of the church that are not decided at the diocese level,” end quote. In order to make the council work, it should be supported by a permanent secretary, adequately staffed and financed.[00:36:38] Simone Collins: Hmm.[00:36:39] Malcolm Collins: And it wanted to have a private vote, so keep in mind if we’re seeing these public votes be this far lefty, you can only imagine what a private vote would look like. In terms of the cardinals who were involved with this, you had Cardinal Reinhard Marx. He was involved throughout the entire thing and served as- The chairman, keep in mind, this guy votes on who becomes pope, okay?[00:36:59] He strongly defended the process throughout, and then the other cardinal you had involved was Cardinal Rainer Maria Woelki. And she later became a strong opponent after the Vatican turned against it[00:37:10] Simone Collins: Huh[00:37:14] Malcolm Collins: And oh, I loved this quote from the, the, the thing that was writing on it about what they had to say about the people who opposed the conference. Yeah. “Schulzer herself had taken a public stance against the document. However, organizers,” this is the, the, the pro-gay stuff document, “earlier dismissed concerns and pressures on bishops rejecting the pro-LGBT document, with President Stödter Karp labeling the bishops attacking it as, quote-unquote, ‘whiny.’[00:37:39] Following the fallout on Saturday, Hanna-Barbara Gerl-Falkovitz, a noted philosopher, also announced she would leave early because of how the synod way was being handled. Dorcia Schmidt, one of the few participants who regularly expressed clear criticism of the text under discussion, supported the two women’s decision in an interview with EDTN.[00:37:59] She accused the leadership of the synod way of not tolerating minority opinions and simply pushing their own line,” this was a quote from her, “in the pursuit of goals that had been, quote, ‘fixed at the outset,’” end quote.[00:38:16] Simone Collins: I find this all so confounding. They re- seem to really think this was going to be accepted by the Vatican[00:38:22] Malcolm Collins: Well, the Vatican did excommunicate them, and they just kept doing it.[00:38:26] Speaker 3: I think Simone really hits on something here, which is that they did this and didn’t think that the Vatican would push back on them, and were right that the Vatican wouldn’t successfully push back on them for this, , shows that they understood within their circles, within the clergy circles, that there was a underlying acceptance of these beliefs to the extent, I mean, keep in mind over 90% voted on them, , that they would just be passed through.[00:38:54] That everybody secretly within the priest caste, within the bishop caste, within the cardinal caste, secretly agreed on all of this[00:39:01] Malcolm Collins: And to get under... Oh, this is the 2020 statement by the Vatican, which was their strongest rebuke of this. Okay. They said the...[00:39:07] And this was more recent than I thought, so 2020.[00:39:10] Simone Collins: Oh. Whoa, really recent. Okay.[00:39:13] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. The Synodal Way does not have the power to compel bishops and the faithful to adopt new forms of governments and new orientations of doctrine and morals. And they called it, quote, “A wound to the ecclesiastical communion and a threat to the unity of the church.”[00:39:29] And the reason we’re talking about this right after the SSPX thing is I want to show the way the Vatican reacts when progressives do something that I would see as demonstrably worse, but in the ex- same, same directionality as what SSPX is doing.[00:39:44] Simone Collins: Hmm.[00:39:46] Malcolm Collins: What they said of SSPX is not just that they’re gonna excommunicate these people who have dedicated their entire lives faithfully to the church over fairly minor differences, but that anyone who is, like, really sincerely, we go [00:40:00] over the wording that they use in it, it’s all very bureaucratic ‘cause that’s the way Catholic doctrine works that they are also excommunicated from the church.[00:40:08] Like, that their sacraments do not count. In terms of why they continued even with a Catholic rebuke, ‘cause you were saying why. Yeah. They said that they were listening to the Holy Spirit through the people of God in Germany. Basically saying that people in Germany like this stuff, like the average person in, in media, the eli- I mean, I’m sure, like, the devout Catholics in Germany weren’t about this.[00:40:31] Actually, I read many reports that they were horrid- horribly- Horrified ... horrified that this was happening.[00:40:36] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:40:36] Malcolm Collins: But the priest caste is an elite caste, and so they hang out with the elites of the urban monoculture. They want to impress the elites of the urban monoculture. They do not care, because they have been separated from the laity, about the laity.[00:40:50] Which is really sad, but this is the way, I mean, it’s been forever in, in Catholicism. If you go back and you look at, like, the medieval Catholic cardinals, they were all these, like, super rich people who just partied with kings all the time, right? Like, they always wanted to be in the culture of the elite, and didn’t really...[00:41:08] On average. Certainly there was the here and there cardinal that actually cared about his parishioners.[00:41:16] So much purer than the common vulgar weak licentious crowd[00:41:24] Malcolm Collins: But if you’re like a, a big history n- like, I’m a big... People might say I don’t know a lot about history. I mean, a lot of my view of Catholicism is shaped by being a big history nerd, and whenever a Catholic cardinal comes on the scene, you’re usually about to see somebody get tortured, or some horrible case of corruption, or something where the lady was having a, being completely fleeced or you know- The Vatican being like, “Hey, come in.[00:41:54] I know you’ve called out corruption. Come in. We’ll have a conversation about this.” The person gets to the Vatican, “Ha-ha, we lied. We’re gonna torture you to death. So we’re just gonna kill you. That’s that’s what we do.” And that’s what has informed my biased perception.[00:42:10] And I’m trying to understand, because a lot of Catholics in the comments on the last vid- they were like, “Well, you know, Catholics are taught that the church is gonna become, like, really corrupt and evil leading up to the end times,” right?[00:42:24] And that that’s when God’s gonna come down. Like, that’s when we’re, you know, gonna have the, , Messianic period. And here I am like, wait, do you think that this is the worst the Church has ever been? Because my gosh, I almost... And people can tell me if they wanna go through this, like, studying the actual history of the Catholic Church, because it is pretty mortifying.[00:42:50] Like, I think that there’s this perception that there were, like, maybe, like, 150 good years that maybe you go to, like, the 1950s. But by the 1960s, the bishopric was so captured that you get 90% votes on the, the the Vatican II creepy documents. So, like, I don’t think 19... I think you gotta go further than 1950s.[00:43:14] I think you gotta go 1920s. Okay, so you go back to the 1920s, and then you can maybe say to the 1820s. Like, there was this maybe, like, 100-year period, may- maybe even a 200-year period where, like, the Church was fine. But let’s hear a pro-Catholic person’s perception of Catholic history because now the, he was excommunicated ‘cause he’s angry at the modern church.[00:43:40] But like, let’s, what does he think when he thinks about like Catholic history, right? Because I wanted to hear that, right? Like I’m like, what do they mean when they say they wanna go back to like the old way of doing things?[00:43:50] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:43:50] Malcolm Collins: Were they thinking of like this short window that I as somebody with like, who, you know, I’ve, I’ve listened to a lot of like early Catholic history, all the early, [00:44:00] you know, popes who always had their mistresses and were giving out corrupt favor to the kids they’d had with prostitutes and like, I’m like, “What, what was he thinking of?”[00:44:09] So let’s go over this. And this is Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò. So he was a, a very big deal. So he served as a secretary general of Vatican City. He served as the Apostolic Nuncio. This is the Pope’s diplomatic ambassador. Mm. A, he was a very big deal in Catholicism, right? So yes, he’s turned against, but he’s one of these guys who’s like, “We need to go back to the way we used to do things.”[00:44:36] All right?[00:44:40] So he said and I think this is in relation to the SSPX people being condemned. He said, “From the early 9th century, the popes preached, organized, and sometimes personally led military excursions to repel the Islamic invasions of Christendom. From the 11th century, for two and a half centuries, all of the popes created, organized, and levied, and above all, lived the spirit of the Crusade.[00:45:06] That is, the reconquest of holy lands from infidels. From the second half of the 14th century, “Almost all of the popes continued in an ever more tragically operational manner to do everything and more, often against the Christian monarchies themselves, to thwart the invasion of Christendom.”[00:45:22] Oh, sorry, here he’s saying... Oh, he’s still saying it’s good here. Mm. “To thwart the invasion of Christendom by Ottoman Islam.” Mm. “Which nevertheless reached Buda and threatened Vienna no fewer than two times. One can say that the crusading activity was the primary political activity of popes in the late medieval and modern centuries, up to the first half of the 18th century.[00:45:42] It suffices to name, above all, above the blessed Urban II and the Counts of Chatillon, Innocent III of the Counts of Sengal, Catilius III, Borgia, Pius II, Piccolomini, Leo X de Medici, St. Pius V, Griselli[00:45:59] the blessed Innocent XI, Odichi popes blessed and crusaded saints.[00:46:05] Speaker 6: Just in case you are wondering, oh, this list, does this include the type of people that Malcolm is talking about? , Well, you’ve got Callias III, nephew of an earlier Bergia, heavily got into this position through corruption and nepotism. , We’ve got, , Pius II, who did have illegitimate children, , and also wrote erotic literature.[00:46:27] The way, this guy, oh, I love my el- erotic literature pope. And then I don’t have a problem with erotic literature, right? But, like, to act like these people were these, , great, magnificent, , totem pole of Catholicism, , shows that Catholics somehow are able to completely overlook evil and corruption[00:46:48] leo X, y- who was the son of Leonzo the Magnificent, famously worldly and extravagant, he reportedly said, “god has given us the papacy, let us enjoy it.” , And he was well known for bribery and all that nonsense. , But the point being is even when they point out the best of what they think the papacy is, anyone else in history looking at this would have been like, “This is horrifyingly corrupt.”[00:47:16] Speaker 7: Also as a side note, one of the things that’s disappointed me the most in some of the Catholic response to our episode on SSPX being excommunicated are the Catholics who have reached out to us and said, “Well actually SSPX is an evil cult that has all these evil beliefs and they’re not...” I’m like, “No. I know, I know SSPX.[00:47:36] Sorry. No. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.” That doesn’t make me think, oh actually Catholicism is still good. That reminds me , that Catholics will turn their back on faithful people trying to do their best to serve God under Catholic teaching, and will burn them at the stake the moment, the moment the [00:48:00] Pope can in his corrupt whatever the is going on right now, think that they can get some sort of advantage after that, and that the average Catholic layperson will be like, “Oh yeah, F SSPX now because, , the Pope told me to, and I don’t think for myself.[00:48:14] I don’t look into things myself[00:48:16] Speaker 8: And this is me defending to you, a Catholic, an organization that would be much more likely because the main Catholic Church has become so ecumenical that they can’t even really throw people out anymore because everyone’s technically under God now, right? Everyone’s technically, even the techno-puritans.[00:48:35] I want a version of Catholicism that can tell me, “No, Malcolm, you’re wrong.” Okay? I am okay with that, and I think that’s one of the reasons Catholics started to listen to this show is because everybody wants somebody who actually believes something, who’s not just gonna go out there and say whatever. Th- like I prefer a person I can disagree with to their face and who’s not gonna tell me, “Oh, well, everyone’s secretly,” right?[00:49:01] Everyone’s secretly whatever. , And to throw out SSPX, this group that would condemn me, would say that I’m like a demon worshiper, , it’s just rich to me. By the way, for this period, if you’re like, “How bad were the popes really during this middle medieval period?” Well, you got Alexander VI, Rodrigo Borgia, who fathered multiple illegitimate children with mistresses. Have Innocent XIII[00:49:24] VIII, again, illegitimate children. That was 1485. Julius II, 1500s, again, illegitimate children. Paul III, illegitimate children.[00:49:35] And then if you go before that, the popes just become like comically evil. Like you have the Cadaver Synod, which we’ve gone over in other things, but yeah[00:49:44] Malcolm Collins: Even in the 1917, the Office of the Crusades still existed in the Vatican.”[00:49:49] Ooh, they had an Office of the Crusade up until 1917.[00:49:53] Simone Collins: That’s wild. I wonder what they were up to since the Crusades ended for all those, all those years. “[00:50:01] Malcolm Collins: Today, we have a pope who goes to endorse the invasion of our lands, our property, our customs, often our lives, shattered by the bestial violence of these unpunished invaders, who know they can do anything because they are protected by those who should condemn and repel them.[00:50:17] From John Paul II onwards...” And here I’ll, I’ll do a video of the pope, you know, blessing migrants.[00:50:22][00:50:29] Malcolm Collins: They’ve, doing multiple things, saying you need to accept as many migrants as possible. Now, the Bible says you should accept people traveling through your lands, not settling in your lands. Okay? From Pope Paul II onwards, with perhaps a partial exemption for Benedict XVI. The popes have preached with all their might, with a unique insistence in their kind, with an exceptional crescendo, and with guaranteed operational management through NGOs, the Islamic invasion of once-Christian Europe. And you could be like, “Look, it’s not a straight-up invasion.” They want, in some areas in the majority, for Sharia law to eventually be the law of the land.[00:51:08] That is an Islamic law. They are having kids at a higher rate than the native population. Now, it may not be as high as many people think, but it’s still higher than the native population, which means eventually, in these democratic states, they will be Islamic republics, at least under Sharia law if they can vote the way that they want, right?[00:51:27] You can say, “Oh, I don’t know if this is invasion. I don’t know.” It’s, it’s still something, like, worth being mad about if you are the central Catholic institution and want to maintain a Catholic way of life within these historically Catholic countries. To have no pushback on this, but instead have commandments against pushback by your followers, you have to say, “W- why?[00:51:50] What’s this level of institutional capture?” When you consider the actual history of the papacy in this, this lens here, and these popes did participate in these crusades.[00:51:59] Simone Collins: I [00:52:00] did just look up, by the way, what happened to the Office of the Crut- Crusade and what they were up to after the Crusades. But basically, they, they existed because people, like kings, would give money for the Crusades, and they existed, the Office of the Crusade existed to make sure the Crusade money went to the Crusade efforts.[00:52:17] And then later, it hung around because they also started making sure that indulgences money went toward the prayers to get people out of purgatory, right? Like, you wanna make sure that when you buy the... You know, it’s not like our Social Security system where you’re, we’re just paying boomers. Like, this was like Peru’s Social Security system where you deposit the money into an account, and you can see it ‘cause it goes to you.[00:52:40] And so in this case, when you’re praying for your dead grandma to get through purgatory faster or, like, paying indulgences for someone else to pray for it, it was actually going to her because the Office of the Crusade existed, which is actually kind of nice. I appreciate that. And then later, it was, it was, it was there just to make sure taxes went where they were supposed to go, but then they were like, “You know what?”[00:52:58] We don’t need this anymore.[00:53:00] Malcolm Collins: What, wh- how bad a would it be if we had a crusader pope come in? I think a lot of progressives might[00:53:06] Simone Collins: jump- Well, they would have to reopen the office of the crusade to make sure all the money went to the right place.[00:53:10] Malcolm Collins: I think a lo- I think a lot of people would convert into Catholic- a lot of very high fertility people would convert into Catholicism.[00:53:15] I mean,[00:53:17] Simone Collins: militant Catholicism. Yeah, that would, I don’t know. People seem to really not wanna fight anymore, so probably not. Also, the Crusades even sucked during the Crusades. I was just listening to a podcast/YouTube video about the experience of crusaders and how many of them came back with, I mean, they, they didn’t have PTSD, but came back with PTSD sy- symptoms.[00:53:44] How many of them died of, like, gangrene and dysentery well before they could actually get somewhere to even fight for something meaningful, and how it was just... It was, it wasn’t great for everyone.[00:53:54] Malcolm Collins: No.[00:53:54] Simone Collins: And so they- I think it’s a little romanticized[00:53:57] Malcolm Collins: He goes on to say “Who are the true schismatics? As I have said other times, these are the days of the definitive choice between the master and the unfaithful servant.”[00:54:06] Mm. “This is the only true criterion of schism. Everyone chooses, whether they want to or not, whether to stand with God, who never changes, or with the dogmatic, spiritual, and liturgical relativism of a conciliar liberalism and socialism of the last 65 years. I do not reconcile. I remain faithful to the popes who saved our Christian Europe and faith and civilization for 10 centuries.[00:54:31] As I remain faithful in all things to the Church in its first 19 centuries, I do not reconcile.” And Catholics have... We may do another episode if people want us to, because this could also be an interesting episode. How could you legitimately, because the pope chooses the cardinals and the cardinals choose the pope, we’re sort of at a point in the cycle where it’s very hard to break out unless we can trick the socialists to elect a Black pope, but we just tried that in the last election and it didn’t really work.[00:55:04] Because that could have gotten us out of this. And if we’re not seeing that, basically no matter what we do in terms of birthrates can we recapture a form of Catholicism. When I say we, I see the Catholics who do not want this as our genuine allies in this journey, right? Like, they are 100%, without reservation, whatever reservations I have about the Vatican, I do not have about them, okay?[00:55:27] Yeah. I, I, I see them as holistically, I wanna fight for them. I wanna fight for whatever they want for the future of the Church. How do you realistically make this happen, right? And it might be my Protestant mind that I’m not like, “We’ll just wait it out eventually.” Because the Church has almost never not been corrupt.[00:55:45] It’s, it’s it, it’s... That’s the thing about, like, the history of the Church. It’s almost always been horrifyingly corrupt, except for a few centuries. With that being the case, how do we [00:56:00] fix that, right? How do we create a p- And I believe the strain of Catholicism that is very conservative today, if they recreated the Church bureaucracy, they could create a non-corrupt, devout version of Catholicism.[00:56:15] Mm. I believe that that is Protestant. A true- That it’s not just a warrior version of Catholicism, but a pure version of Catholicism, and maintain it with fidelity. But to do that... Now, there’s been periods throughout history where we’ve had multiple popes. But by the way, how that period ended they created a council in the Vatican to annul the two other popes, and then to make another guy pope, right?[00:56:40] And then the other guy who they made popes they immediately came and said “Nope, popes can overrule councils.” And they’re like, “But we just gave you this power.” And he’s like, “I’m sorry, I make all the rules now.” So, like, immediately, even in that moment, you’ve got, you’ve got this creepy, like, corruption going on, and then th- this, this lack of, i, I just, I think it was, it was, it was really slimy, everything that happened during that period.[00:57:01] But, like, you can do it, but you’ve got to do it, find some way to do it by the book. So, like, let’s go into the book. How could you... You basically just need to get a number of cardinals on your side, I think is really what you need.[00:57:14] You need to get a number of cardinals on your side, and historically, basically need to capture the Vatican. So, if you can capture the Vatican, like, literally bar the progressives from entering, and annul them with some group of cardinals, I think you could legally get away with this, with, w- w- well, maintaining, I don’t know.[00:57:31] Some group of Catholics has to figure this out. Because if they are excommunicating people as mild as SSPX, yet allowing this to continue to grow and metastasize, as recent as, like, the 2020s I don’t, I don’t know how you’re gonna recapture things. I don’t know, like, how that’s realistic at this point.[00:57:52] Simone Collins: I don’t know if there’s gonna be any recapturing.[00:57:54] The, the, the church as it is centrally managed now benefits from attrition among members because it gets money every time a convent or school is sold, for example, and it’s quite entrenched, as you pointed out. Just from a, a governance structure perspective, there is, as you say, no really breaking through it.[00:58:12] My hope is that with SSPX, which... Look, after this excommunication, people have shown videos, posted videos online of just mass after mass filling on Sundays with different SSPX churches and, and parishes. They’re doing fine. They’re doing really well, and I think there’s been even an outswelling of, of support- upswelling of report.[00:58:34] How do we swell? Whatever. There’s been a rise in support for them. As there[00:58:38] Malcolm Collins: should be.[00:58:39] Simone Collins: Yes. As there should be. As there 100% should be. So what I could see happening over time is this offshoot increasing so offshoot of the church kind of just starting to build its own centrally managed governance that eventually becomes a new papacy.[00:58:56] It’s okay. Look, it... They had to do what they had to do. And then, you know, with time, though it’s gonna take a lot of time, so no one should hold their breath, the, the old one will fall, but it’s gonna destroy everything as it goes, as it should because as you pointed out, you kind of have to start fresh anyway.[00:59:12] That there’s been too much baggage, entrenchment, rot, cancerous growth, whatever you want to say, within the old institution. So why bother?[00:59:23] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I mean, you would basically... Actually, I, I can see how you’d do this. If you have a revolution in Italy that takes control of the government and you can use that to take control of the Vatican, and control who can enter and leave- There’s[00:59:33] Simone Collins: not going to be a revolution in Italy.[00:59:35] They’re too hot and tired.[00:59:37] Malcolm Collins: They’re t- So true. Well, and they’re, you know, Italians, and I, I’m gonna be... I- as somebody who lived in Italy for a year they’re incredibly lazy people. They, they, they you know- Don’t expect[00:59:47] Simone Collins: a revolution anytime soon ...[00:59:49] Malcolm Collins: I mean, France could have a revolution and then, I don’t know, conquer Italy or something.[00:59:53] That’s, that’s probably more likely. They love revolutioning in France. But it usually doesn’t go well, so you know, that’s the other problem with, with [01:00:00] you know, it’s not as, as directed. And I do wanna make my position on Catholicism, like clear. I’m mortified by what the Vatican has come to represent.[01:00:09] I am mortified by the vast majority of Catholic history, if I’m gonna be honest. But that doesn’t mean that I don’t think the Catholics I know today could create a really pure and great institution. I know a great number of really devout moral Catholics today who would not repeat the grossnesses of indulgences, and like, like, even when you were talking about like paying for other people to pray for your...[01:00:39] I was like, “Ugh, that is so gross that that was ever in the theology.” Why would you... Ugh, ugh, ugh. Yeah. So gross.[01:00:51] Simone Collins: Wasn’t the best. I mean, I could see how it could happen and come from a good place, right? Like, people start really thinking purgatory’s a thing, even though I don’t remember seeing any biblical basis for it.[01:01:05] But look, it just, everyone starts thinking, and it’s like this mass delusion, and everyone starts getting really worried about it, and they’re like, “How do I get over this?” And they’re like, “Well, you just gotta prayer for, pray for hours and hours.” And people admittedly have jobs and things they have to do, and they can’t, and they’re not experts, so they want to, they wanna throw money at the problem.[01:01:23] And so someone shows up and they’re like, “Well, you can throw money at me.” Like, this is how it[01:01:26] Malcolm Collins: could happen. And then somebody says, “You guys should stop this. It’s a little corrupt the way you’re doing it.” Yeah. I know. And then they torture and kill them.[01:01:31] Simone Collins: I[01:01:31] Malcolm Collins: know. I know. We know how it goes. Which is the, the way it often went- Yeah[01:01:34] For hundreds of years. Which is hard to read about when you’re reading history and you remember that these are real people who were devout Catholics, who wanted the church to be better, right? You know,[01:01:44] Simone Collins: Yeah ...[01:01:45] Malcolm Collins: it’s, it’s hard. It’s hard. But I think that something good can be made. And I, I just, like seriously, Catholics g- in the, in the Discord or in the comments, how do you actually fix this if the pope controls the cardinals and the cardinals control the pope, and they’ve had control of this system for about a century at this point, at least half a century?[01:02:12] Simone Collins: Well, here’s what I’m hearing from people on the ground, though. At the parish level, they have thriving communities, they have fantastic-[01:02:20] Malcolm Collins: They do. There’s g- there’s lots of local Catholic[01:02:22] Simone Collins: communities that I love Yeah. They’re like, “Look, this doesn’t affect me. I don’t care.” Like, it’s, the, the people who are actually doing Catholicism, who aren’t the ones in, in their ivory towers, are doing Catholicism.[01:02:35] And in the end, pe- they’re, sometimes people are looking the other way. I mean, SSPX is different, I think, in that they’re being very explicit about their choice- Mm ... to not adopt all elements of Vatican II, for example. I think that maybe in practice there are a lot of[01:02:51] Malcolm Collins: parishes that- But I think that this is why Catholics have such a high deconversion rate- Mm[01:02:55] um, and, and such a low birth rate, is it’s this innate trust in institutions that they know are corrupted. So they send their kids to Catholic school- Mm-hmm ... and then the Catholic school ends up upstream of that being totally woke, which we’ve seen a lot of Catholic schools becoming. They tell their kids, “Oh, well you can trust the, you know, local Catholic priest or whatever when you move to a new city,” and then this priest has some goal or worse, because we have seen this happen among our fans who are in Catholic communities, is some based local priest becomes super popular, and then the Vatican switches him out-[01:03:34] Simone Collins: Yeah[01:03:34] Malcolm Collins: because they were becoming too popular, and v- they were like, “Oh, this isn’t exactly what we want being taught here.” So you can’t even, like, trust your local church, really. And then when you outsource that to your children’s moral framework that they’re building as they develop as an individual it’s really dangerous.[01:03:51] I mean, yes, you can jury rig a system together to make it work, but I think it’s a bit like the people when it came to, like, public schools, they’re like, “Oh, [01:04:00] this woke stuff doesn’t really bother me,” and then 10 years later it’s like, “Oh my God, I can’t believe this is in my local school.” When you have over 90% support of trans within this Catholic council, when you have the BDSM stuff on Catholic Day, I think you’re seeing a level of, “Well, no, this is, like, oh, my kids will go to Catholic Day and it’ll be fine.[01:04:19] It’ll be cool. It won’t be a place where they will be incepted- Mm-hmm ... into these other communities,” and it’s like, no, now Catholic Day is the root to that for the next generation. And I think that it is this being okay with the institutions being this captured and just being like, “It won’t affect me,” it’s really like the I, I see this in Protestant communities sometimes as well, where I see the very Protestant parent, and they’re like, “I’ll just raise my kids the way I was raised, and I stayed a Christian,” and I was like, “Was it li- did you, when was the first time you met somebody who wasn’t a Christian?”[01:04:52] You know, like, y- they’re going into a school system that is designed from the ground up to deconvert them, right? Like, you can’t just do it the way you did it a generation ago. Mm. And I think that that’s why we’re seeing these high rates of deconversion among sort of l- and a lot of Catholics are smart.[01:05:07] They know, like, they can’t do- these systems, but it, it just raises the cost for them so much to live that lifestyle when if you go to the Mormon communities, they got, even though their institutions are slightly captured, they’re gonna have some level of protection at their, at the, the, from the ground up in these communities, and the Catholics just don’t have this anymore.[01:05:29] And I think it’s because they just immediately were like, “I don’t even need to win these battles, these battles aren’t important.” They’re existential, these battles, are existential. And well, I mean, I think the reality is that Catholicism is probably just gonna either gonna have to grow from these movements that are, that, you know, that Vatican’s gonna get panicked, they’ll start excommunicating more people, and groups like SPSX, because I see what the Catholics do.[01:05:53] They go, “Oh, well, this other bishop who I followed said the SSPX excommunication didn’t count because they didn’t use the proper procedures,” a very Catholic- What? ... thing to say.[01:06:03] Simone Collins: Oh.[01:06:03] Malcolm Collins: And so we don’t, we, we can pretend like they didn’t happen. And I think that, that that’s sort of what’s happening.[01:06:08] They’re just going along and being like, “Well, we’re, we’re pretending that the institutions aren’t this captured.”[01:06:13] Simone Collins: No. No, no, no, no.[01:06:16] Malcolm Collins: As a Protestant, as a Catholic, you can actually do that. They’ve been doing this for centuries. That’s how they’re gonna wipe Vatican II off. They’re gonna be like, “Oh, they forgot to do this procedural thing,” or, “It wasn’t done in this way, when it was done this way at the first council, ‘cause they didn’t go in this order, or they weren’t sitting on this chair,” and,[01:06:33] Simone Collins: Look, if that’s what it takes, though, I’m happy for that to be what it is.[01:06:38] I- if that’s... Look, it, I, we just need it gone. I don’t care how, and if it just, people are like, “Oh, never mind,” like take-backsies. I would be happy. Let’s do that. I just don’t see that happening anytime soon.[01:06:56] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, I’d, well, I’d, I love this guy’s vision. Let’s get a warrior, let’s get a crusader pope back I’d have to, I’d have to be like like, we oughta become like a, a, like, the, that would be so cool to, to have within the alliance.[01:07:11] And a Ca- a Catholic group recreated around crusader aesthetics and lifestyle would also be pretty cool.[01:07:19] Simone Collins: Yeah, I could see that being... But I, I feel like there was something that happened with Islam where there was this short period where they were like, “Everyone, you should be on your own personal jihad,” but they just took the fangs out of it.[01:07:34] Like, “Oh, man, I’m on a weight loss jihad. I’m on a study jihad.”[01:07:37] Malcolm Collins: No, no, no. This was the thing where they lied to white people because white women were stupid. Okay. And they kept saying, “When we say jihad, we don’t mean kill you all, we mean it’s like a weight loss thing.” It’s like, a no, the vast majority of Muslims understand what that means.[01:07:52] It’s like when they started to tell people, “Well, technically there’s a way that, like, Aisha wasn’t six and then nine at consummation, six [01:08:00] at marriage, nine at consummation because if you look at it here, here, and here.” And then I, I learn that all conservative Muslims believe that. This is just, like, a few weird progressive European Muslims who don’t believe this.[01:08:10] But if you’re talking about, like, your average conservative council in, like, Pakistan, they believe that. It’s, it’s, it’s, you don’t, don’t get fooled by that. And th- what we get fooled by that, we, when we say crusade, we don’t mean crusade. We mean, like, your personal weight loss journey. Jour-[01:08:25] Simone Collins: It’s a c- it’s a crusade to lose[01:08:26] Malcolm Collins: weight.[01:08:27] It’s the same way that Simone and I dress like like, Puritan, like, settlers and stuff like that. This group could dress like old crusader stuff, you know?[01:08:34] Simone Collins: Yeah. Like, the- As if the Catholic Church needed better aesthetics, though. I’m so into all of it. It’s, it’s all good.[01:08:41] Malcolm Collins: Yeah.[01:08:41] Simone Collins: Still, though, I, yeah, I don’t know.[01:08:44] Yeah. I- I’ve never seen such a divide between my faith in the-[01:08:49] Malcolm Collins: Humans. Individual Catholic[01:08:51] Simone Collins: humans ... yeah, the laypeople, yeah, versus my, my lack of faith. And not in, like, the priest level or the nun level. Every priest and nun I’ve met, incredible person. Actually, every deacon I’ve met, really awesome, too. It’s, I, it just seems- I’m gonna push back on-[01:09:07] something’s happening somewhere ...[01:09:08] Malcolm Collins: every priest I have met in, in Catholicism has been an incredible person, but they have all also been very coded urban monoculture. Like, behind the things that they’re saying, it’s a clear, “But I want to be accepted and thought of as the cultural elite.” There is no edginess.[01:09:28] There is no, that I need to, like, know that I can trust somebody. Right? Like, that, this is, like, culturally for me. I need to see a little bit of that edge. I need to see a little bit of that dark Mimi. I need to see a little bit like, hey,[01:09:40] Simone Collins: like- Look, I don’t- ...[01:09:41] Malcolm Collins: crusade, crusade[01:09:42] Simone Collins: is kind of a- Our whole prohibitive vice thing is, that I think is a techno Puritan thing and, and, and something-[01:09:47] Malcolm Collins: I don’t think it is.[01:09:48] Like, this guy who was kicked out of the Catholic Church and was, like, a thing for the... He’s got this energy. He’s talking about crusader popes. If I, but I’ve never seen- and any of the catholic priests that i’ve talked to have that. they always have that very, like, buttoned up, sort of posh mckinsey middle management vibe[01:10:04] Simone Collins: mckinsey middle, ouch, malcolm you[01:10:06] Malcolm Collins: know what i’m talking about[01:10:07] Simone Collins: i do, but ouch yeah Ah, I, I don’t know.[01:10:15] That- Anyway, I wish them[01:10:16] Malcolm Collins: all the best ... that Mackenzie Vigo management vibe is to me, like, like my, my vibes like the cucumber to a cat. Again, like I see that, I’m like, “[01:10:23] Simone Collins: Rah!”[01:10:24][01:10:27] Malcolm Collins: Like, what, what are you doing here? I don’t,[01:10:28] Simone Collins: I don’t like this. Yeah, well this is equal opportunity. You have the same response to the Mormon pod person phenomenon, as you put it, so.[01:10:35] Speaker 7: Stan, take the drug, man, prove it to us. Okay.[01:10:41] Open the door. It is so much better. There’s no fear or pain. It’s beautiful. And you We’ll be beautiful. No problems or worries. We want you. No pain, Stan? We’re gonna come in here and I’ll show you some f*****g pain![01:11:04] Malcolm Collins: No, I don’t. I, I find it scary. Okay? I’m like, “Mm.”[01:11:11] Simone Collins: It- Malcolm, no. You have a strong, visceral reaction to it. Don’t even.[01:11:16] Malcolm Collins: It’s a little, yeah, okay, I do have a, a visceral reaction to it.[01:11:18] Simone Collins: Yes, you do.[01:11:19] Malcolm Collins: But I don’t get that from all Mormon- I don’t get that from Kevin Dolan.[01:11:23] Simone Collins: Well, no, definitely not.[01:11:24] Malcolm Collins: But I do get it from a lot of the high-level church people in the Mormon community.[01:11:29] Simone Collins: I don’t know that[01:11:30] Malcolm Collins: that- And Mormon influencers.[01:11:32] Simone Collins: Well, Mormon influencers are... Look, an influencer is its own type of pod person. They have their own pod person vibe, which is a little different. But y- and you, and you, you, you also have a, a cat-meets-cucumber reaction to, to many things that Orthodox Jews do and, and that Reform Jews do.[01:11:50] Look, you just, you-[01:11:52] Malcolm Collins: The, yeah, their mysticism stuff?[01:11:55][01:11:58] Speaker 45: Siva, Om Nam [01:12:00] S[01:12:01] Speaker 46: to[01:12:11] Simone Collins: Yes, Malcolm. That immediately gets me. So again, you know, well, I just, I’m saying this for the people who are always like, “Oh, you always single out Catholics.”[01:12:17] Malcolm Collins: Oh, my, yeah.[01:12:18] Simone Collins: Anyway. You[01:12:19] should see what I say about-[01:12:21] Malcolm Collins: Can’t stop thinking about Catholics ... look, people know, like, my thoughts on Kabbalism are at, probably more severe than my thoughts on Catholicism.[01:12:28] Simone Collins: Oh,[01:12:28] yeah.[01:12:29] Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm. It makes sense ... I just yeah, they’re, they’re definitely more severe. It’s just that if you’re not an Orthodox Jew, you don’t understand why what I’m saying about Kabbalism is so offensive.[01:12:39] Simone Collins: Oh, dear ...[01:12:40] Malcolm Collins: and if you’re, you know... But Mormons, I think they largely know about the whole pod person thing.[01:12:45] Mormons are aware of that. Are they?[01:12:47] Simone Collins: I think so, yeah. Yes, yes, actually, I m- know so. I mean, they know that for the same reason that they know that MLMs are an issue in the community and all these other[01:12:56] Malcolm Collins: sorts of things. But I mean, I say what I mean, and as I said with Simone, we know so many Catholics that are awesome and would be such great members of, like, this wider community and it, the, the just like, well, don’t care about what the people at the top say.[01:13:12] And it’s like, but that ends up affecting your children and our ability, because if you ever become super effective, like SPSX h- has, SSPX has, It sounds like a skateboarding company, by the way. Like SSPX has. Which is cool. It’s rad, okay? Yeah. If you ever become super effective, like your portion of the Catholic movement, you could just get excommunicated, right?[01:13:33] Like, that’s messed up, and I guess what we’re gonna see going forward is, does that matter? And so far it appears it doesn’t. And when we see an excommunication from the pope no longer mattering, and everyone just being like M- to the pope I think that is where the, the beginnings of any real revolution come from and where we might see a positive Catholic movement.[01:13:58] And I think that the people who are now going to SSPX meetings, who are going to their churches, who are going to their masses in response to what the pope did,[01:14:08] Simone Collins: Yeah, which is so great to see. Yeah ...[01:14:09] Malcolm Collins: that forces the popes... That, that is how you actually create change. Mm. That’s how you force the pope to the negotiation table, right?[01:14:18] Yeah. That is probably the only real... Because you show that what the pope says no longer matters to average Catholics when he is excommunicating people for their devoutness- ... while leaving the rest of this stuff on the table.[01:14:35] Simone Collins: Yeah. Oh,[01:14:36] Malcolm Collins: it’s just so wild. If it was excommunications on both sides, I’d be fine, but it’s not Which shows who’s secretly in control of everything.[01:14:45] He’s basically just like, “Don’t say this too loudly.”[01:14:51] Simone Collins: Well, there you have it. I’m sure we will find more things to cover going forward.[01:14:58] Malcolm Collins: No, I mean, I think that these two topics are needed back to back because they are a mirror of y- each other.[01:15:05] Simone Collins: Oh, right, right. So on the one hand you have these very devout people who are getting excommunicated. On the other hand, you have the branches that have not even been, been admonished for trying to introduce a series of policies it seems incredibly antithetical to even the current stance of the church.[01:15:26] Though, the fact that these were... I mean, it almost feels like a lot of this was denied merely because they wanted to administer the church, like via this extra layer of governance, and cover, and control the finances and stuff. I feel like that seems to be a bigger driver of the Vatican saying, “No, you can’t do this,” than all the other stuff, which is very interesting.[01:15:46] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But I don’t know. And I, and I will note here that like I may have been brainwashed as well, like on my thoughts about medieval Catholics. C- you, you can go to St. Andrew’s, I went to St. Andrew’s for my university. Every day walking to my philosophy class you have to walk around a spot on the ground, ‘cause there’s [01:16:00] a, a, a thing there because the Catholic Church burnt a very devout Christian man alive very pious man alive, a, a teenager actually I think because he called for reforms, right?[01:16:12] For he, he called them to be less corrupt. And so that’s very, like in my head, the thought of a teenager burning alive because of the corrupt church.[01:16:22] And, I decided to go to AI just to double-check I was getting this right, and yep, burned a kid alive because he was upset about indulgences. F*****g... I don’t-- Gosh, man, maybe you guys are okay with... I’m not okay with this. I’m not okay with this. I’m not o- Like, am I not allowed to be like, “This is evil”?[01:16:43] Malcolm Collins: And, and it’s something that is hard for me to not think about. And it’s not that Protestants didn’t do like, corrupt things, but the iterations of Protestantism that were corrupt and evil, modern Protestants denounce, right?[01:16:57] Whereas the iterations of the Church, it’s, th- th- that had the blessing of God because it’s a, it’s, it’s a contiguous line which makes it harder for me to just be like but y- like I can say what they did was bad and I’m not part of that denomination of Protestantism because I think- Mm ... that denomination was bad and corrupt and that’s not good and so we had to reform that, whereas this reform never really happened in the Church.[01:17:22] Simone Collins: Yeah.[01:17:22] Malcolm Collins: It’s... Anyway, love you, Simone.[01:17:26] Simone Collins: I love you too. Is this gonna focus on the, the s- situation that happened in Germany, or are you gonna talk about the alcoholic’s rehab center turned pedobear rehab center?[01:17:45] Malcolm Collins: I had literally knew nothing about that. What happened?[01:17:47] Simone Collins: The island? Okay. Maybe I’ll bring that up later ‘cause it’s, it’s amazing, truly.[01:17:53] Malcolm Collins: Well, d- tell me a bit about it so I know whether or not I need to mention it in the intro.[01:17:57] Simone Collins: Oh okay,[01:17:58] There was this man called Father Gerald Fitzgerald, which great name, founded what was called The Servants of the Paraclete to help problem priests. And, you know, this is a reasonable man. He knows that some priests are alcoholics, so he basically tried to create an alcoholic rehab center for Catholic priests who really struggled.[01:18:22] And then he started getting sent priests that had other problems, problems involving their interests in-[01:18:31] Malcolm Collins: Children. Okay, continue.[01:18:32] Simone Collins: Yes ... the youthful. And yeah so as much as he had actually a decent amount of success with the alcoholics, he, he did not have so much success dealing with different types of disorders.[01:18:45] Malcolm Collins: What’s the point, Simone?[01:18:46] Simone Collins: He basically gave up on ever trying to rehab the, the priests that came to him that weren’t suffering from alcoholism, and was like, “You know what we should do? We should send them to an island and just, just keep them there. Just let them stay there. And they can just live there for the rest of their lives.[01:19:03] No one’s gonna hurt them.” He, he proposed it was an island in the Caribbean. This was in 1965. He, he said, “Look, it’s gonna cost about s- $50,000.” He purchased it even for that amount, and he wanted to use it to isolate priests who got accused of sexual abuse.[01:19:19] Malcolm Collins: That sounds like a really good idea, actually.[01:19:21] Simone Collins: Oh, do you know there’s an island that’s kind of known for sheltering-[01:19:26] Malcolm Collins: Yes ... pedophiles But if you just put them on an island without children, it- I[01:19:30] Simone Collins: know ...[01:19:30] Malcolm Collins: that was a, a dramatically more ethical solution than what the church chose. Why-[01:19:34] Simone Collins: I’m just saying there is a, there’s a, per my knowledge, an un- unoccupied island in the Caribbean[01:19:41] Malcolm Collins: Do you wanna do the Jeffrey Epstein island for-[01:19:43] Simone Collins: Well, how perfect would that be?[01:19:45] I’m just saying it would be, it would be perfect. Unfortunately, no priests were actually sent to the island that was purchas- purchased by Father Fitzgerald. It just didn’t happen, and church authorities sort of forced him to sell it. So [01:20:00] the, the island doesn’t even belong-[01:20:02] Malcolm Collins: That’s really- ...[01:20:03] Simone Collins: to[01:20:03] Malcolm Collins: the Catholic Church anymore[01:20:04] messed up that they had a place where they could have sent them and they-[01:20:07] Simone Collins: They, yeah, they could have... And a nice island in the Caribbean, like this- But[01:20:10] Malcolm Collins: not even bat. Just like, “No, whatever happens, we have to keep raping children.” Yeah. “That is the one thing that our religion cannot live without.”[01:20:18] Yeah[01:20:19] Simone Collins: that is- Well, and he went so far. Like, this was an experienced person. They tried everything else first. Like, “We’re gonna try to rehab them.” He l- And he, this was a man who had a track record of bringing people back from pretty serious alcoholism. But he, he literally th- his quote in, in describing them was, quote, “Irredeemable, completely incorrigible.”[01:20:37] They just, you couldn’t, you couldn’t fix them. He just threw up his hands. I just love that, like, there was a priest, he tried to fix them, and he’s like, “Nope, send them to the island.” All right. Put them in a box. Yeah. Anyway- So I’ll get started here ... I, I didn’t realize you weren’t gonna cover that. I just figured that that was, like, connected to all this.[01:20:54] But I guess this is- No ... just so much bigger than,[01:20:56] Malcolm Collins: Did you do some research and see how big it is?[01:20:59] Simone Collins: No. No. I just, I just looked up that because I thought that that-[01:21:03] Like,[01:21:04] could... Was- Okay.[01:21:04] Malcolm Collins: I’ll get started.[01:21:05] Simone Collins: Yeah[01:21:07] Speaker 9: Whoa, what is happening, Titan? Daddy, and there’s seats right there. Daddy, there’s- Look, I can sit on one. Daddy, there’s- Yeah ... yeah, to watch the movie. Do you wanna go over there? Look, it’s the sand. Oh, yeah? Yeah.[01:21:19] Titan,[01:21:24] are you watching the movie?[01:21:51] Toasty, did you build this? Did you build this? I didn’t build it This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

Malcolm and Simone Collins break down the Vatican’s aggressive excommunication of the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) after they consecrated bishops without papal approval. They discuss why the Church is cracking down on the Latin Mass, traditional Catholics, and the fastest-growing, highest-fertility segment of the faith — while selling off convents and schools.Topics include: the capture of the Vatican, Vatican II reforms and contradictions, the Latin Mass vs. Novus Ordo, demographic collapse in mainstream Catholicism, monetary incentives for decline, parallels with the Anglican realignment/GAFCON schism, and why institutional recapture through demographics may be nearly impossible.Show NotesAP News on July 2nd:“VATICAN CITY (AP) — The Vatican responded aggressively Thursday to a traditionalist group that consecrated bishops without the pope’s consent, declaring the Society of St. Pius X had formally broken with the Catholic Church. It excommunicated its bishops and priests, and warned its faithful that they too face the harshest sanctions in the church.By declaring a schism and extending excommunications to potentially thousands of Catholics, the Vatican’s doctrine office went above and beyond the minimum sanctions foreseen by the church’s canon law to respond to the consecrations Wednesday of four new bishops.The society, known by its acronym SSPX, celebrates the ancient Latin Mass and opposes the modernizing reforms of the Catholic Church, which it considers to be rife with heresies and errors. While a fringe movement on the Catholic right, the SSPX has been a thorn in the Vatican’s side for five decades because it claims to be even more Catholic than the Holy See.During a ritual-filled, five-hour Mass on Wednesday at its seminary in Econe, Switzerland, the SSPX consecrated four new bishops in direct defiance of Leo, who had urged the group to hold off for the sake of church unity. An estimated 15,500 people and their children attended, a sign that the SSPX has plenty of supporters who came from around the world knowing full well they were defying Rome.”The ExcommunicationIn Catholic teaching, excommunication does not equal being condemned to hell, nor is it understood as a declaration that a person is damned (Official theology has long insisted that only God judges the soul definitively; excommunication addresses external communion, not the internal state of grace.)* The current law treats it as a “censure,” not expulsion from the Church; an excommunicated person remains a baptized Catholic, still bound by obligations like Sunday Mass, but barred from receiving or administering sacraments and holding church offices* Its purpose is medicinal: a severe wake‑up call meant to prompt repentance and return to full communion, not a spiritual “execution.”* Most excommunications can be lifted by going to confession and receiving absolution from the appropriate authority (sometimes any priest, sometimes a bishop, sometimes the Holy See, depending on the offense).* Also, what is your take on the Vatican’s excommunication SSPX members? https://www.facebook.com/reel/776390925518377* https://www.disclose.tv/id/8klgxp4icx/* The decree promulgated in response was by far the harshest one yet* Leo hasn’t walked back traditiones custodes either* The clergy in Charlotte just appealed to Rome* The bishop took away the thriving Latin masses, restricting it to one small chapel in a corner of the diocese that can’t hold everyone* Banned altar rails* I think you are mistaken that high fertility means anything in the immediate term* I used to live on a block that had a public school that was a former Catholic parish school* The diocese sold it due to low enrollment* Selling off properties as they are shuttered makes money* I think a lot of religious leaders feel their job is quietly managing decline and not making too much fussAbout SSPX - Society of St. Pius XOrigins of SSPXThe Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) originated in 1970 in Switzerland as a priestly fraternity founded by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre to preserve traditional Catholic priestly formation and liturgy in the wake of Vatican II.Ecclesial approval and early status* The local bishop of Fribourg, François Charrière, approved SSPX in 1970 as a “pious union of priests in the diocese,” initially on an experimental basis.* This early approval meant SSPX initially existed within the canonical structures of the Church, not as a breakaway group.* Rome initially sent visitors who gave favorable reviews of the seminary’s formation, underscoring that early tensions were not immediate.Rapid growth* As of 2025, SSPX reports about 1,482 members total (bishops, priests, seminarians, brothers).* Of these, around 733 priests (excluding bishops) belong to the Society.* Estimates place 600,000 or so faithful attending SSPX Masses worldwide.* Internally, SSPX news sites emphasize that the Society “has experienced constant growth” since 1970, with new locations opening every year.* In the United States, SSPX lists 20 priories and 103 chapels, plus retreat centers, which is “quite small” compared with hundreds of non‑SSPX parishes offering the TLM.Commentators sometimes point out that, by priestly headcount, SSPX would rank among the larger priestly religious congregations if fully recognized: one claim placed them around 5th after Jesuits, Franciscans, Benedictines, and Augustinians, based on ~700 priests. That’s meant to highlight how unusual it is for a group of that size to remain canonically irregular.The Birth RatesThere is strong evidence that Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) Catholics as a whole have higher fertility than other Catholics, but there is no hard, SSPX‑specific dataset that cleanly isolates “SSPX parishioners” from other TLM communities.The best quantitative data are for TLM vs. Novus Ordo Catholics, not SSPX vs. non‑SSPX:* A widely cited U.S. survey of Latin Mass attendees reported an average of 3.6 children per woman among TLM Catholics versus 2.3 among Catholics attending the ordinary (Novus Ordo) form.* Commentators describe this as “nearly 60% larger family size” for TLM participants relative to ordinary‑form parishioners.* Social‑science work on religiosity and fertility generally finds that more devout, frequently attending religious adherents have higher fertility and intended fertility than nominal believers, which fits these numbers.Points of Divergence from the Vatican1. Episcopal consecrations without papal mandate* SSPX consecrated bishops without the required papal approval, most notably Marcel Lefebvre’s consecrations in 1988 and the new consecrations in 2026.* The Vatican has repeatedly declared these consecrations a “schismatic act,” stressing that choosing bishops without a papal bull crosses a definitive canonical boundary.* The latest decree explicitly states that this act created a formal schism and triggered automatic excommunication of the bishops involved.2. Rejection of key aspects of Vatican II* SSPX was founded explicitly “in opposition to the reforms of the Second Vatican Council,” and continues to reject major elements of those reforms.* They object to the Council’s promotion of the role of laypeople, ecumenism, and interreligious dialogue, seeing these as harmful concessions rather than legitimate developments.* The group has accused the post‑conciliar Church of being “rife with heresies and errors” such as modernism and liberalism, positioning itself as the sole guardian of the “true faith.”3. Liturgy and the Roman Rite* SSPX insists on celebrating the pre‑Vatican II “ancient Latin Mass” and rejects the ordinary form of the Roman rite (the post‑conciliar Mass in vernacular languages) as a theological and pastoral mistake.* They explicitly oppose the move to allow Mass in local languages, a reform the Vatican understands as legitimate and binding.* In practice, they treat the new liturgy with deep suspicion or outright rejection, sometimes describing it as harmful to the faith.4. The push for unity and interreligious dialogue* Vatican II and subsequent popes have pursued structured dialogue and “thawing of relations” with Protestants, Orthodox, and non‑Christian religions; SSPX rejects this orientation.* SSPX holds that the Catholic Church is the “one, true faith” and regards interfaith dialogue as unnecessary or positively dangerous, criticizing official policy of building inroads with other Christian communities.* This stance conflicts with magisterial documents that frame ecumenism and interreligious dialogue as integral to contemporary Catholic mission.5. Teaching on religious freedom* A core doctrinal dispute is over Vatican II’s teaching on religious freedom (e.g., Dignitatis humanae), which SSPX critics often portray as incompatible with prior Catholic teaching.* SSPX-associated arguments frequently claim the Council’s stance on religious liberty represents a rupture, not a development, and see this as evidence of near‑apostasy outside SSPX.* The Vatican, by contrast, has consistently defended the Council’s teaching as authoritative and binding.6. Attitude toward the post‑conciliar magisterium* SSPX has long suggested that Church authorities since Vatican II “have been animated by a spirit that is contrary to that of the faith and have been acting against holy tradition.”* This includes a practical distrust of recent papal teachings and doctrinal offices, leading them to set their own doctrinal interpretations against official magisterial documents.* The Vatican’s latest decree characterizes this stance as an “intentional rupture” in communion, hence schism.7. Canonical status and sacramental discipline* The Vatican now explicitly declares SSPX bishops and priests to be schismatic and excommunicated.* It has invalidated or declared illicit SSPX administration of key sacraments, especially confession and marriage, reversing prior limited accommodations.* Faithful who “adhere formally” to SSPX—regularly attend their Masses and share their doctrinal positions—are warned they themselves are considered schismatic and excommunicated.8. Obedience to papal authority* SSPX’s actions imply a parallel ecclesial structure that claims to be “more Catholic than the Holy See,” undermining the Vatican’s claim to supreme authority in matters of doctrine, liturgy, and discipline.* The recent decree emphasizes that continuing in SSPX while rejecting papal directives constitutes a deliberate break with Church unity.The Church Had This ComingPointed out to us by a friend:* The CCP basically chooses bishops and Rome OKs them: There is a secret 2018 Vatican–China agreement that gives the Chinese state a decisive role in proposing bishops, with the pope retaining theoretical veto power, and in practice Rome has often ended up accepting party‑approved candidates.* They keep pushing back on Latin mass even though people really like it* Pope Leo hasn’t walked back traditiones custodes* Traditionis custodes is the 2021 decree by Pope Francis that imposed strong limits on celebrating the Traditional Latin Mass according to the 1962 Roman Missal. It requires bishops to get Vatican permission for certain uses of the old rite and generally discourages new communities centered on it.* After Vatican II, they began removing alter rails, which foster reverence and clarify the sanctuary’s sacredness—plus support kneeling communion* Historically, the rail marked off the sanctuary from the nave and provided a place for people to kneel to receive Communion while the priest moved along the rail. This reflected the older theology and practice where the sanctuary was treated as a distinct, more sacred space and Communion was almost always received kneeling at the rail* Practically, it’s helpful for churches that have lots of children aroundThey also kind of benefit from their low-fertility mainstream* They make money from selling properties that shut down* They’re King Henry VIII-ing themselvesOther SchismsOrthodoxThere is an intra‑Orthodox rupture in communion centered on the Moscow Patriarchate and several Greek‑tradition churches, but it’s not that big of a deal in comparison and it’s more political (with the Catholic Church, it’s about doctrine; here it’s about communion—In this case, both sides still share the same theology and sacraments)Basically, since 2018, the Russian Orthodox church has severed Eucharistic communion with the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople and certain churches under its influence (notably Greece, Alexandria, Cyprus).* This means bishops and priests of these churches no longer concelebrate together, and Moscow has instructed its faithful not to receive communion in those Greek‑tradition churches.This is downstream of Russia’s war with Ukraine. Constantinople granted independence to the Orthodox Church of Ukraine in 2018, which Moscow argues violates canonical tradition and its own claim to Ukraine as its territory.The dispute raises questions such as who can grant independent, whether schismatics can be received back by a patriarch other than the one they left, and whether the Ecumenical Patriarch can act as a kind of “Eastern pope” beyond his jurisdictionWhere things stand: As of recent assessments, Moscow is out of communion with Constantinople, Alexandria, Greece, and Cyprus, but both blocs remain in communion with most other Orthodox churches.Anglican SchismThis one’s more similar to the SSPX schism.Anglicanism is presently experiencing what many observers openly describe as a de facto schism, driven largely by disputes over sexuality, gender, and the authority of the Archbishop of Canterbury.* Over roughly the last 20–30 years, conservative Anglican provinces (especially in the Global South) have progressively distanced themselves from the Church of England and other liberal Western provinces over issues like same‑sex blessings and women’s ordination.* In 2025–26 this moved from tension to formal break: the Global Anglican Future Conference (GAFCON) movement and allied provinces announced that they no longer recognize the authority of the Archbishop of Canterbury or the traditional Instruments of Communion.* GAFCON‑aligned provinces have announced that they will not participate in meetings called by the Archbishop of Canterbury, will not contribute to Anglican Communion structures, and will amend constitutions to remove references to Canterbury.* Estimates suggest the global Anglican family may end up split roughly in half, with each side claiming continuity with authentic Anglican identityIssues driving the split* The immediate flashpoints include the Church of England’s decisions to bless same‑sex couples and to appoint a woman (Sarah Mullally) as Archbishop of Canterbury, both seen by conservatives as symbols of “unbiblical and revisionist teachings.”* Beneath these are deeper disputes about the nature of Anglican authority: whether Canterbury has any binding global role, and whether doctrinal and moral teaching can be set locally without reference to shared historic standards like the Jerusalem Declaration (2008).* Conservative leaders frame their move as faithfulness to Scripture and to the English Reformation’s theology, while critics see it as a schism that fractures Anglicanism into two rival communions.They’d prefer not to call it a schism: GAFCON and sympathetic writers resist the word “schism,” preferring “realignment” or “reformation” and insisting they are not founding a new church but restoring Anglicanism around its original doctrinal center.Is this normal? Is this a promising sign?Schisms are a recurring and fairly typical feature of religious history; what’s unusual today is more the visibility and global simultaneity than the fact that multiple splits exist at once.What do we think about it? Keen on Malcolm’s opinion.Episode Transcript[00:00:00] Malcolm Collins: ask yourself why they’re doing this. Like, Latin mass is-- It’s so clear ... clearly more popular. It’s- Yeah ... clearly practiced in churches that have lower attrition rates. Yeah. It’s clearly practiced in churches that have higher birth rates. Yeah. The common people love it. Why would you remove something like that the reason you would do that is if your explicit goal was the demoralization and destruction of the institution.[00:00:25] Simone Collins: It, it really feels that way. It super feels that way. the Vatican actually has a, a monetary incentive to lean in to this[00:00:34] because when you have all these Catholic schools and all these convents and all these monasteries shutting down- Ooh ... because no one’s left in the area, guess what you get to do? They’re literally, like, King Henry VIII-ing their own church.[00:00:50] They’re selling it- Yeah ... for parts. And I think that also- For their gay[00:00:54] Malcolm Collins: sex parties.[00:00:55] Would you like to know more?[00:00:57] Simone Collins: Hello Malcolm, I’m excited to be speaking with you today because we have an excommunication party. And there’s schisms taking place, and of course it’s about your favorite thing in the entire world, the Catholic Church. So here is a news bulletin from AP News.[00:01:14] Vatican City has responded aggressively Thursday to a traditionalist group that consecrated bishops without the Pope’s consent. Declaring the society of St. Pius X had formally broken with the Catholic Church, it excommunicated its bishops and priests, and warned its faithful that they too face the harshest sanctions in the church.[00:01:37] By declaring a schism and extending excommunications to potentially thousands of Catholics, the Vatican’s doctrine office went above and beyond the minimum sanctions foreseen by the church’s canon law to respond to the consecrations Wednesday of four new bishops. The society known by its acronym SSPX celebrates the ancient Latin mass and opposes- Wait, wait,[00:01:59] Malcolm Collins: this is SSPX that got excommunicated?[00:02:02] Simone Collins: I know.[00:02:03] Malcolm Collins: I know. That’s like mainstream Catholicism.[00:02:06] Speaker 6: What I mean by that is SPSX doesn’t hold any like weird or particularly offensive theological beliefs. , , You know, they’re not particularly racist or homophobic or, , do even anything as weird as like mortification at like really high rates like you see with some Catholic groups. The reason why the Vatican has chosen to have a beef with them is because they practice the Latin Mass and because they believe that Catholicism is the one true religion.[00:02:32] And that’s really it. That is what was - made them worthy of[00:02:36] The ban on being able to choose their own bishops without explicit papal approval, which no other Catholic group is subject to, and thus[00:02:44][00:02:44] Speaker 6: excommunication[00:02:45] Simone Collins: I mean, we’ll talk about the differences, but like they’re one of the biggest and fastest growing and highest fertility groups. Yeah, like[00:02:50] Malcolm Collins: I know a lot of their people. And[00:02:51] Simone Collins: they’re like, “Hey look, it’s my foot, let’s shoot it. Pew pew pew.” So, Well,[00:02:55] Malcolm Collins: no, these are the only Catholics having any kids, right?[00:02:57] I know. I know.[00:02:57] Speaker: And I want to note here, they have done this once before. The Catholic Church has, in the 80s, they excommunicated a number of high-level people in SPX. But this time is different because they were more explicit that the lay people who go to these churches, .[00:03:13] Are also subject to this. So, . i’ll just quote here from, a newspaper article on this, , and this is in America Jesuit Reviews, so this is a Catholic newspaper. , So this is not me putting words in, like, the church’s mouth or anything like this. , Today’s Vatican decree also goes a step further, warning the priests and lay members of SSPX that, quote, “From now on,” end quote, they too will be in schism and automatically excommunicated if they, quote, “adhere,” end quote, to the schism.[00:03:43] What adhere means is largely clarified in the 1996 explanatory note of the Pontificate Council of Legislative Text on the, quote, “Excommunication for Schism Incurred by the Members of the Movement of Bishop Marcel Lefebvre,” , which was referred to in [00:04:00] an explanatory note attached to today’s decree. I love it how something so truly evil to people who have dedicated their entire life to a religion can be done in such a bureaucratic fashion.[00:04:10] But anyway, back to this. , The 1996 note explains that if Lefebvre deacons and priests freely carry out their ministry within the schismatic movement, , e.g., within SSPX, in disobedience of the Pope, then that is a formal adherence to schism. , The question of the laity’s adherence to schism depends on the person’s intention in whether he or she adopts SSPX attitude towards doctrine.[00:04:33] , This is really f-d-- like, really evil stuff, man[00:04:37] And if you’re gonna say, “Well, they ignored the Pope’s orders,” the Pope’s orders were patently ridiculous. , The, the people who had spent their entire lives in were highly dedicated to the church, and he didn’t like them because of their views on ecumenicalism and the Latin mass. Like, that’s what he was mad at them for.[00:04:54] That’s why he said they couldn’t become bishops. , But they went ahead and became bishops anyway. That, that’s what this was over., Just completely unreasonable[00:05:02] Malcolm Collins: Like, I, I, so brief aside here we’ll be going over some other churches, ‘cause it’s not just Catholics that have a schism problem right now. Schisms. But like these people have actively not wanted to schism. They’ve been holding their nose. Yeah. They’ve been taking the sacrifice.[00:05:16] Simone Collins: Since 1970, Malcolm, they’ve been holding on tight.[00:05:19] They’re really trying to play[00:05:20] Malcolm Collins: nice. Yeah, like we don’t want this to become a schism.[00:05:23] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:05:23] Malcolm Collins: And my like the Catholic fans of the show and stuff that we have that say this, and they’re like, “We can just wait this out.” Yeah.[00:05:29] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:05:29] Malcolm Collins: I have said in response to that, I think you may not understand how captured the Vatican is.[00:05:35] Yeah. And how aggressively they will attempt to resist this.[00:05:39] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:05:39] Malcolm Collins: And what it is to excommunicate somebody who has dedicated their entire life to your religion, right? Like-[00:05:48] Simone Collins: Well, and the, the they’re like extra into the Catholic history and lore, into actual doctrine. I mean, I know that the Vatican doesn’t see it this way, and you, you can go back to your book that you wrote on governance where you’re like, look, if some, like if like the like mousy, nerdy girl in the teen girl clique decides that she’s not gonna wear pink on Thursday, but the mean alpha girl says that everyone’s gonna wear pink on Thursday, and then mousy girl comes up wearing purple on Thursday.[00:06:21] Look, that is a direct challenge to alpha girl’s authority, and alpha girl either can- Undermine her authority in front of the rest of the girls, thereby possibly losing queen bee status, or she can kick mousy girl, who actually cares about all the stuff they care about, out of the group because she’s a challenge to the...[00:06:44] I mean, like this is, it’s an obvious, like, this, this was bound to happen. It’s kind of a shock that, that- Well,[00:06:48] Malcolm Collins: I mean, I think that people what, w- w- what wasn’t fully understood- Mm ... is this idea that if we have and it’s happening more and more in, in terms of the Catholic lay body is becoming more conservative.[00:07:03] Yeah. That, that this, the Catholic churches that hold Latin mass are getting way more parishioners than the ones that don’t, right? Like- Yeah. Mm-hmm ... that’s what the people want. Yeah. And there is this mindset that, “Well, if we can just out-breed them for long enough, eventually we’ll be able to recapture the institutions.”[00:07:20] But the problem is is the Catholic institutions are not controlled via popular vote. They are controlled via vote of people who are allowed to vote and appointed to vote by people who currently control the administration. So, the, the, the length that they can hold on is probably about five generations longer than I think most people suspect.[00:07:42] And when they then point and they go, “Oh look, all of the young people who are being ordained,” and stuff like that to these lower level positions that don’t have voting rights in the larger Catholic Church- Mm ... these people are all conservative. That’s a good sign. But as I- I mean, when you, when you think about, like, how [00:08:00] progressive the people in the, in the center of the church are, like, we need infinite immigration, right?[00:08:04] Like, we need to w- we’re, you know, we’re all worshiping the same God, you know, we’re all, you know... the, the Buddhists are great and very insightful,[00:08:12] Simone Collins: Oh, you wanna know what’s worse, actually? So, this is, this is it kind of blew my mind. The, the CCP basically chooses bishops, and Rome just okays them.[00:08:22] And this has been happening since 2018, where there was this secret Vatican China agreement that gives the CCP this decisive role. So they’re just like, “Okay, CCP.” And they’ve also just c- continuously pushed back on SSPX, which is just trying to genuinely be true to the church. And it’s not just on[00:08:43] Malcolm Collins: pushing back on- What did they do that deserved excommunication?[00:08:44] Like, what was the, what was the grave sin? What was the[00:08:47] Simone Collins: line? They, they, they consecrated new bish- bishops that were not approved by the pope[00:08:53] Malcolm Collins: Did the bishops have to be approved by the pope?[00:08:55] Simone Collins: Yeah Did th- Yes. At least in this case, apparently. That really... But we’ll, we’ll get into that. Now I’m gonna, I’ll, I’ll finish the press release.[00:09:01] Yeah. We’ll keep going. Anyway, the society known as known by its acronym SSPX celebrates the ancient Latin mass and opposes the modernizing reforms of the Catholic Church, which it considers to be rife with heresies and errors, which it is. Whi- while a fringe movement on the Catholic right, the SSPX has become a thorn in the Vatican’s side for five decades because it claims to be even more Catholic than the Holy See, because it is.[00:09:26] During a ritual field- I mean, it[00:09:27] Malcolm Collins: definitionally is, but okay- I know ... continue.[00:09:30] Simone Collins: During a ritual- Or was ... field five-hour mass on Wednesday at its seminary in Econe, Switzerland, and this movement was started in Switzerland, the SSPX consecrated four new bishops in direct defiance of Leo, who had urged the group to hold off for the sake of church unity.[00:09:47] An estimated 15,500 people and their children attended, a sign that the SSPX has plenty of supporters who came from around the world knowing full well they were defying Rome. So this was one of those this, this was like ess- essentially, again, queen bee mean girl saying, “We’re all wearing pink on Thursday,” and mousy, nerdy girl who cares about what they actually care about being like, “No, I’m gonna wear purple.[00:10:13] It’s right to wear purple. It’s...” I don’t know, whatever Being like, “All of the books say wear purple.” Like we’re celebrating world history or something. Right. Yeah. Sumptuary laws. And she’s like, “No, if you do that, you’re gonna be in trouble.” And then not only does mousy girl show up in purple, but, like, three of the other girls in the group show up in purple.[00:10:28] Like, y- we, when you’re met that, with that direct defiance and also that many people, almost 16,000 adults and their children show up, and there are pictures of this.[00:10:41] It’s like a sea of people. It’s, it’s hard to imagine the sheer magnitude of, of just humanity that showed up for this. Yeah ... I, I feel like-,[00:10:51] Malcolm Collins: What’s really important to note is we are not seeing this with the Vaticanist events as much anymore.[00:10:57] Simone Collins: No. They have lo- And it’s, like, mostly tourists in Rome who are like, “Oh, I heard there was this famous guy called the Pope.[00:11:04] Malcolm Collins: Let’s go see him.” Right. And .[00:11:05] if, I mean, if you wanna say, this is, this is what’s so crazy, that you can say stuff today and it’s like, it sounds insane, but, like, the evidence seems to back it up. You know, when you say there was actually a network of elite PDA files who secretly had undue influence in American business and government, and then it turned out that that’s all true and that’s just, like, a thing now.[00:11:29] Or th- there was a trans murder cult that killed more people than the Manson Family, and this is just, like, the Zizians. It’s just a thing. It ha- b- out of the effective altruist movement nonetheless that were... or that the Vatican has been captured by a gay sex cult- ... that is now excommunicating the most devout Catholics for attempting to recapture institutions.[00:11:54] Speaker 18: The Catholic boat’s gonna be heading on [00:12:00] out today. The Catholic boat, get some hot Christian action that’ll take you-[00:12:11] Malcolm Collins: And y- you can see our episode. Like, a lot of people talk about this, this group, but when we went over the episode, if you haven’t seen it, it was one of the wildest episodes I’ve ever done, right? Ever thought through, was the, the gay Jew that wrote key Catholic doctrine. For real. Yeah. Which is a real thing.[00:12:26] But the thing that got me about studying this guy’s life is just, like, the amount of gay sex he’s having that everyone he dated after he left the church was a former priest or nun. Like, it was very clear he was part of a very large network. And when we ask questions like why does the institutional Vatican...[00:12:43] ‘Cause I think a lot of the Catholics were very confused as to... And it is true that the, the Vatican does produce, you know, a, i- in terms of the, the grapes per capita less than the American school system. But that’s not saying a lot, ‘cause the American school system is, is one in nine kids I think- Mm[00:13:00] gets SA’d these days. But , the thing that horrified a lot of people is that all the way to the top, this was systematically covered up.[00:13:07] Speaker 2: Why would he put anything in your butts? We don’t know. That’s what we’re trying to figure out. Hmm.[00:13:12] Hmm. Hello there, children. Chef, why would a priest want to stick up my butt? Goodbye.[00:13:23][00:13:23] Malcolm Collins: And that a lot of people were asking, like, “But wait, like, did they just not believe anything in the Bible at all? Like, were they willing to you know, ruin these individuals’ lives, these children’s lives in order to protect a practice?”[00:13:39] Speaker 11: . Yes, I, I’m afraid if things keep going the way they are, we could lose our entire religion. Yes, we’ve gotta stop these boys from going to the public. They’ve got to know to keep their mouths shut. That’s right. Right. And so, w- wait a minute.[00:13:51] What? Yes, but we’ve got to find out why these children are suddenly finding it necessary to report that they’re being molested. Stop the problem at its source. Yes, but how? You know, yeah. I wonder what- Whoa, whoa. Hold on a second. The problem is that children are being molested, not that they’re reporting it[00:14:08] How do you mean? Well, I mean, obviously what we need to put a stop to is all the sexual misconduct that is allowed to take place in our churches. Not just tell the children not to tell anybody about it. I mean, right? Well, did any of the children you’ve molested come forward? No. That’s good. No, I mean, I never molested any of the children in my church.[00:14:27] It’s okay, Father Maxi. We’re all priests here. The doors are closed. For the love of God,[00:14:32] Malcolm Collins: You know, they could have just quietly fired them or something, not move them to other facilities where they’re still around children, right? Like, it was, it was about protecting a practice and a culture. And I think a lot of people saw that, and they were like Why? Why is it doing it? Did the church just make a judgment of error?[00:14:52] But when you combine that with what we saw in the episode on the, the gay Jew that rewrote key Catholic doctrine, and how much gay sex was going on at the high levels of the Vatican the people writing you know, Vatican II, stuff like that. Th- there actually is probably , a large group a gay sex cult controlling the Vatican, and that has been for a while at this point.[00:15:15] And that they’re willing to go as far as excommunication to maintain that stranglehold I think is horrifying, and and, and well, you could say that they were willing to go as long... Because I think when they saw, like, the children’s lives being murdered, and the priests being moved around, and stuff like that not being murdered, but being ruined they were like, “Well, you know, this has already happened.[00:15:36] Those kids, whatever.” Like, they wouldn’t ruin an adult’s life. Y- you know, and that’s what an excommunication does, right? Like, they wouldn’t ruin an adult’s life over this. And or they wouldn’t do it, you know, this openly. And I think that now we’re beginning to see more openly- Mm ... what the Vatican is actually about at this point.[00:15:53] And I would expect to see, going forwards more excommunications like this [00:16:00] come out now that the jar has sort of been opened on this.[00:16:03] Speaker 8: the way I feel about Catholicism is very weird or interesting, ‘cause we have a lot of fans and friends and some of our closest friends who are Catholic. So obviously I do not hate Catholics. But the Vatican, , I have a burning hatred for the Vatican. , That they would do this to people who have dedicated their entire lives, who have lived good lives, it just[00:16:28] A- and, and I can only feel that, like, psychologically there must be something that is completely incommunicable between me and these people. And Simone has had long calls with some of our good Catholic friends about this, where she’s like ... But it- A better way to ... There’s sort of like, there’s a super villain out there.[00:16:47] Everyone agrees that this is a super villain, and the super villain’s core role is the destruction of Western civilization the, we’ll call this, like, The Red Skull or something like this. And then you’re, but you’re really good friends with some of the minions of The Red Skull, and you go to them and you’d be like, “Man, the, the things this Red Skull guy is doing is really, really crazy and evil.”[00:17:06] And they’re like, “Oh yeah, shoot, the crazy stuff. I, I think it’s totally evil too.” And you’re like, “Well wait, wait, then why are you his minion?” And they’re like, “Oh, well, you know, we’ve gotta keep unity and everything.” And I went, “But wait, wait, wait. Why do you want unity under this? Like, why, why is disunity so bad?”[00:17:25] Right? Like, wh- why is having multiple ways of doing things so bad if the alternative is this? Right? Like , they act like disunity is this big, scary ... , and it’s like the disunity churches are growing much faster, maintaining members at a much higher rate. Like, what do you mean? Like, why, why is unity so[00:17:45] And they’re like, “Ah, you know.” And, and then you point out, you’re like, “The Red Skull, he just like executed like his five most devote henchmen.” And they’re like, “Oh yeah, you know, sometimes he does that, but you know, one day in a few hundred years it’ll be better.” And it’s like, what, what do you mean a few hundred years?[00:18:01] The Red Skull chooses all the guys who choose who’s gonna be the next Red Skull. And they choose the next Red Skull. Wait, what do you mean it’s gonna be better in a few hundred years? And I can only assume that, that at a deep psychological level, or maybe even at a biological level, we are different.[00:18:18] Because I just can’t understand how that makes sense or why disunity is somehow, when we’ve already seen that disunity seems to work and be more vitalistic, more thriving,[00:18:32] Speaker 10: As a reminder, for every eight people who deconvert from Catholicism, one person converts in, and for every two people who deconvert from Protestantism, one person converts in[00:18:42] Speaker 8: seems to be scarier than serving under an obviously antagonistic and evil organization[00:18:50] Speaker 9: An organization that I think if we are being honest with ourselves, if we’re ranking threats to Western civilization, , probably, I’m probably number one, honestly. , The UN is more antagonistic to Western civilization, but it’s less competent. , I guess the parts of Islamism as a whole would be a much bigger threat, but they’re less unified.[00:19:13] , So yeah.[00:19:15] And note the bigger issue than the excommunication, ‘cause this had happened before in the ‘80s, is the making the sort of entire SPSX o- organization, , n- null and void from the perspective of, , being right with God, , for anyone who sees themselves as Catholic. Like they’re essentially forcing a schism[00:19:34] Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah, I think... It certainly as more people challenge and question what’s going on, and as what’s going on becomes more extreme. Yeah, I, I could see momentum building.[00:19:43] And I just, I just wanted to say, though, the excommunication is not as bad as I thought it was as an outsider, I thought. ‘Cause I thought, I thought that being excommunicated was like, oh, this is what got people burned at the stake in the past. This is what got people really screwed. Like, y- you’re, you burn in hell forever.[00:19:59] But, but [00:20:00] actually excommunication in Catholic teaching doesn’t mean you’re being condemned to hell. It’s not understood as kind like a declaration of damnation. Official theology has it that basically only God can decide, so it’s not for the church to, you know, declare. However, it means that you are not allowed to be to receive any of the sacraments.[00:20:24] You can’t be married in the church. So y- y- you’re kind of, like, slapped with this wake-up call,[00:20:30] Speaker 4: This is hugely underselling it, Simone’s interpretation here, because if you are a priest or a bishop who is excommunicated, that means anybody operating under you, , what they do within their, their churches, , doesn’t count. Their marriages don’t count. Their sacraments don’t count. And that matters for the souls of the people who are attending that church[00:20:50] Malcolm Collins: Oh, oh, this is fascinating. Oh my God. Okay. This happened twice[00:20:56] Simone Collins: I don’t know about the 1988 one[00:20:59] Malcolm Collins: Okay, yeah. As of 2026, the SSPX has repeated a very similar act, consecrating four new bishops without papal mandate in Econe.[00:21:06] Simone Collins: Oh. The[00:21:06] Malcolm Collins: Vatican under[00:21:07] Simone Collins: Pope Leo- Yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay, yeah ...[00:21:08] Malcolm Collins: has confirmed- I did read about that[00:21:10] that the involved bishops incurred automatic excommunication for schism. Wo- wow, repeating the 1988 events. So this started in the 1988 events.[00:21:19] Simone Collins: So they’re just doing it again. They’re like, “Look, we’re-[00:21:21] Malcolm Collins: Negotiations between- ... we’re just going.” Well, hold on. Let’s go into the 1988 events, because this is when it first was normalized.[00:21:27] Negotiations between the SSPX and the Vatican, led by Cardinal Jose Ratzenberger, I need to talk about took place in 1988. A protocol of agreement was signed in May 5th, but Lefebvre withdrew his signature days later. He demanded stronger guarantees that tradition would be protected. So this is over him wanting tradition, and the va- that was where they crossed the line, was wanting tradition.[00:21:48] Despite repeated warnings from the Vatican, including a personal letter from Pope John Paul II on June 9th, and a former canonical warning on June 17th that preceded would incur automatic excommunication, Lefebvre went, went ahead. On June 30th, 1988 he consecrated new bishops, and that was the line that led to them all being excommunicated.[00:22:09] But wait, can you normally-[00:22:24] All right, let, I’m seeing if th- this was specially applied to their group because th- this does change things. This means that this is a escalation and continuation. A- and yeah, okay. Yeah, no Instead of[00:22:35] Simone Collins: some new break[00:22:41] Malcolm Collins: This only applies to SPX. Nobody else needs this to, to consecrate new bishops[00:22:46] Simone Collins: Oh my gosh, so they’re like in the doghouse constantly.[00:22:49] Malcolm Collins: No, no, but this really matters because the consecration of bishops, the bishops are the ones who vote on what other Catholics believe,- Mm ... on the... That’s[00:22:58] Simone Collins: why- So they’re trying to make them se- they’re the second-class citizen of the Catholic Church[00:23:04] Malcolm Collins: It’s not that they’re second-class citizens.[00:23:06] It’s the, the fight is over, and this is what I think a lot of the traditionalist Catholics are missing. Mm. They think the fight is over the lay person, when they don’t realize the fight is over the bureaucracy. And if the bureaucracy- Mm ... can just remove anybody who comes into it but has different opinions from being able to vote, then and what’s, what’s fascinating to me is I doubt they would be doing these sorts of excommunications if these people were Africans or whatever. It’s specifically conservatism in Western cultures that they will not allow a slide back on.[00:23:39] Simone Collins: Oh, that’s interesting, yeah, ‘cause it did, it did come out of Switzerland in the 1970s, and it was just specifically about Vatican II.[00:23:46] Like, we’re not cool with the liturgy post-Vatican II, and we want there to be a much more pious, like, true to [00:24:00] real Catholicism practice that we can all turn to.[00:24:05] Speaker 5: And you’re like, “No, no, no, the Vatican isn’t captured by groups that are explicitly anti-white.” , Keep in mind that when the Trump administration tried to take white refugees who were being murdered, like we have very well documented in South Africa, the organizations that ended up shutting down that year, , were the Episcopal Organization for Helping Refugees and the Catholic Organization for Helping Refugees that had both been operating for, like, half a century.[00:24:31] , The Episcopal organization explicitly said, “We’re doing this because we don’t wanna help these people.” , And the Catholic organization did not say that. They just happened around that time period. It plausibly could have been something else. But I think, you know, it’s up to people to be r- you know, honest with themselves about what they’re seeing in these organizations.[00:24:49] Are they institutionally racist organizations? , I mean, at, at, w-would they apply the same rules to a Black congregation , or Black priests? Because I think there are many Black priests , in parts of the way Catholicism is practiced in Africa that are significantly more conservative. So why aren’t they having the rules applied to them in the same way?[00:25:06] , And the, the answer is obviously, , different standards for different ethnic groups because they have different outcomes they want from different ethnic groups[00:25:13] Simone Collins: Though it, it should... What’s weird about this, and like, where I, I see this ongoing tension ‘cause I, I see what you’re saying. It’s, it’s basically they’re like, “You can exist.[00:25:21] You just can’t have a voice, ‘cause we don’t want you to-” You can’t have[00:25:24] Malcolm Collins: institutional power because- Yeah ... we don’t want to lose the institutional power that we have taken control of.[00:25:29] Simone Collins: Because when the founder of SSPX created this new offshoot, the local bil- bishop who was also in Switzerland, approved of it.[00:25:40] They, they said it was a pious union of priests in the diocese, and they just kind of saw it as like, well, this experimental branch, which is something that we’ve often lauded about Catholicism, that it’s this religion that is able to have sort of these, like, more extreme offshoots. It can innovate, and they’re kind of like the, the skunkworks of the religion, and if they’re good, they get reintegrated.[00:26:01] If they’re not, they don’t get reintegrated. And what we have here is an issue of the discernment on what can be reintegrated being disconnected with the actual best interests and true nature of the church and its purpose. But this, yeah, that’s really interesting. ‘Cause they, they, they initially sent visitors to, like Rome did, when, when this new group formed.[00:26:27] They, like, sent people over to check it out, and they had favorable reviews of it, and they thought that, you know, it was, it was, it’s solid. So this, this, this didn’t start out as an attack- antagonistic relationship. And SSPX has grown a ton. So as of 2025, they have around 1,482 members in total, but by members, I mean- Bishops, priests, seminarians, and brothers.[00:26:55] So there are more like 600,000 or so faithful and that’s a lot of people. Plus when you, when you consider especially this is a hard religion, there aren’t any actual estimates of their unique birth rates. There’s only estimates of traditional Latin mass Catholics, and that can be a larger group than just SSPX.[00:27:18] But this widely cited US survey of Latin mass attendees, and of course Latin mass is like the SSPX thing found that,[00:27:27] Malcolm Collins: So let’s, let’s if you... I wanna go over like what, what’s the beliefs that they had that got them to sex communication.[00:27:32] Simone Collins: But hold on. Latin mass attendees have an average of 3.6 children per woman.[00:27:36] Malcolm Collins: Oh, Go-[00:27:37] Simone Collins: Whereas normal Catholics have around 2.3, so that’s significant, like that’s a very meaningful difference.[00:27:44] Malcolm Collins: That’s, those numbers aren’t accurate, by the way.[00:27:47] Simone Collins: How so?[00:27:48] Malcolm Collins: Catholics are way below replacement rate. Like, they’ve been below replacement rate since the-[00:27:53] Simone Collins: Oh, okay. So you’re saying that- ... the early ‘[00:27:55] Malcolm Collins: 80s.[00:27:56] Wherever you got those[00:27:56] Simone Collins: numbers from- That can’t be true because normal Catholics are-[00:27:59] Malcolm Collins: Yeah ... not [00:28:00] at 2.3. Catholic average fertility rate is like 1.1, Simone. I, I do not know- Hmm ... where you’re getting these numbers from.[00:28:05] Simone Collins: Well, if I look at the year of the survey, maybe it’s just that it’s one of the older ones.[00:28:08] I didn’t check the year when I looked at the page.[00:28:12] Malcolm Collins: That probably worth doing because Catholics have had, in the United States, the Catholic average fertility rate, the non-Hispanic Catholic average-[00:28:18] Simone Collins: 2018. That’s interesting ...[00:28:21] Malcolm Collins: the non-Hispanic Catholic fertility rate in the United States was 1.6 and this was back in tw- the 1980s.[00:28:29] 1986 is when it was taken. Well,[00:28:31] Simone Collins: it might be- Yeah, all the data was collected between March 2018 and November 2018. Was it in the[00:28:34] Malcolm Collins: United States?[00:28:35] Simone Collins: I think so.[00:28:36] Malcolm Collins: Okay, so I’ll tell you where you got the, the funky numbers from. Okay. It’s including his, the, the only high fertility Catholic group on Earth really in, in mass when you’re not talking about the, the, the Latin mass ones, are Hispanic American Catholics.[00:28:51] Hispanic Catholics are low fertility in all of their native countries, but they’re very high fertility in the United States[00:28:57] so you’re likely seeing the... But, like, let’s talk[00:28:59] Simone Collins: about- It was in Arizona, California, Colorado, New Hampshire, and Texas. So yeah, that’s gonna have, especially in Arizona And California and Texas, a decent number of immigrants.[00:29:11] Okay, so fair, fine. But still, I mean, a meaningful difference in, in practice of, of fertility rates. And that a lot of commentators see that as, like, a 60% larger family size. And in general, like, other social science work on religiosity, which we’ve reported on elsewhere, shows that people who as we put it, practice more hard religion are more likely to have higher fertility rates.[00:29:39] It doesn’t matter[00:29:40] Malcolm Collins: if you’re like- Yeah, the, the point I’m making is that that’s just not,[00:29:44] Simone Collins: Are you, are you disputing that SSPX members have higher fertility?[00:29:51] Malcolm Collins: What, no, what I’m, what I’m disputing is that it’s not relevant to your ability to control the Vatican. That’s-[00:29:59] Simone Collins: Right, right, right, right. What you find most interesting in this is this systematic bureaucratic resistance to reform when reform means getting rid of changes made that we don’t think are true and that many Catholics don’t think are true to the Catholic faith, correct?[00:30:17] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yeah. They, they, they, so who, who does have a vote within the Catholic Church? So we talk about, like, recapturing,[00:30:23] Simone Collins: Who has the most influence, you mean?[00:30:24] Malcolm Collins: Cardinals are created exclusively by the pope. And even the existing cardinals do not vote in new par- cardinals. That’s only the pope’s decision. Mm-hmm. Oh my God, that’s an incredibly hard system to ever crack.[00:30:35] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:30:36] Malcolm Collins: If only the pope can appoint cardinals and only cardinals can vote on the pope, and both of those b- groups are entirely captured the bishops would have had a vote in big things like Vatican II. Like, presumably all the bishops vote on that. So they’re basically making it so that, like, not even a drip of doubt can come in.[00:30:54] Wow. Not even a drip of opposition can enter.[00:30:57] Simone Collins: Yeah, so it’s- Wow, so there’s basically no room for reform- There is no room for reform ... the way that governance is structured.[00:31:02] Malcolm Collins: You’d have[00:31:03] Simone Collins: to- It’s just not possible ...[00:31:03] Malcolm Collins: yeah, you’d have to take out the existing leadership system almost ent- entirely. Like, like, it would require, like, revolution to get reform.[00:31:11] Th- that is why- Yikes ... I had, I had no idea it was that bad. And if you wanna go over what they held these members to get them excommunicated for putting bishops with these beliefs into a position to potentially vote in future councils Vatican II itself. The council contained serious errors and ambiguities, especially in religious liberty.[00:31:31] This is what SSPX thought, which it just, like, again, see our other episode on this, the, the gay Jew who wrote core Catholic doctrine, and deconverted by the way after that. The, the for people who are wondering, he wrote the entirety of the first draft of one of the key documents of Vatican II on ecumenicalism which is these people’s core complaint.[00:31:49] The guy, the guy who wrote the first draft of the document is no longer Catholic, right? Like, I can understand why they might be like, “Well, should we really? Like, this seems to go against some of the older beliefs in Catholicism.” And, and apparently [00:32:00] this is the number one thing that they’re, they’re mad about, okay?[00:32:02] Is- That[00:32:03] Simone Collins: who’s mad about? That SSPX is mad about- No, that[00:32:05] Malcolm Collins: the- ... or the[00:32:05] Simone Collins: Vatican? ...[00:32:05] Malcolm Collins: that the Vatican is mad at SSPX about- Uh-huh ... is SSPX views on ecumenicalism. Like trying to integrate the- That they’re[00:32:13] Simone Collins: trying to consecrate, consecrate bishops?[00:32:16] Malcolm Collins: W- well, no. This is the view that we’re threatening to the Vatican, okay?[00:32:21] Simone Collins: Mm.[00:32:21] Malcolm Collins: That SSPX, this is the view that says, like, “Hey maybe we shouldn’t have endless immigrants of other religions,” right? Like, maybe we[00:32:28] Simone Collins: sh- No, no, yeah, that, that’s, that’s the other, yeah. Like, well, I mean, a m- that is one of the many things, but yeah, they’re, they’re... Well, more broadly it’s not like, oh... So Vatican II as w- you pointed out in the, the gay Catholic whatever one Jew episode that there’s this big thing about, like, oh, let’s have interfaith dialogue, and maybe everyone’s kind of right.[00:32:50] Whi- which SSPX is like, “No, Catholicism is the one true faith. We’re not gonna be like, ‘Oh, I don’t know, I guess everyone’s kinda cool. It’s fine. Let’s all talk together and be friends.’” Like, no, Catholicism is right.[00:33:01] Malcolm Collins: Like, you can talk and be friends and still be like, “But we’re the right ones.”[00:33:05] Simone Collins: Yeah, like, that’s the whole point, is it?[00:33:06] And it- This is why we love talking with our Catholic friends and friends of other religion, especially our Catholic friends though, and I guess our Catholic friends lean more in the SSPX direction ‘cause they’re like, “I mean, that’s a great, you know, we understand your point. You’re wrong.” And I love that.[00:33:20] Like, I wanna have that debate, and the, the leaning of, of the, of like post-Patic- Vatican II Catholic Church is very different. But then I mean, you know, it’s... They’re also super against this, this idea of in general, kind of taking away the sacredness of the Catholic Church. Well- Like, this manifests in many different ways, right?[00:33:40] Th- I mean, we talk most about the Latin mass and their, their obsessive obsession with the Latin mass, but there’s also subtle things. Mm. Like, it’s not, there’s not a formal rule about this- Mm ... but there are what are they called? Rails. There are these, these rails that sort of separate the, the key part of the church.[00:34:02] What is it called? The sanctuary from the nave, where like the, the- Yeah ... the parishioners sit. And post-Vatican II, it kind of just became the thing to remove the rails, which both you would sort of kneel at for communion, but also provided this feeling of physical separation from a more sacred space. And it separated the priests from the, from their flock, and sort of showed them to be like, “Hey, this is th- the stuff happening here is sacred and special.”[00:34:32] And when you take that away, it makes all of it feel like less authoritative, less exciting and magical and meaningful. And also, I, I think this is understated, but f- just from a practical family perspective and I, I really felt this when I took Octavian into a Catholic church, when we took him just to D- DC like a couple months back.[00:34:56] When you have a lot of little kids running around a Catholic church, which you should if you have a successful parish They might just run straight up. Like, the fence is useful, and especially, like, to kids who can’t really understand complex- Actually,[00:35:11] Malcolm Collins: that’s such a good point. The fence is a sign of a church with kids.[00:35:15] Simone Collins: It is a sign of a church ‘cause the what is, what is the first thing Octavian did when we got into the church? He, like, walks up. He like, “I’m gonna sit on, like, the big spot. Like, it’s, it’s a little bit raised here. I wanna go to the coolest part, and I’m gonna climb up on it.” And I’m like, “Oh my God, no, stop.”[00:35:28] I, I think I even have video of it that I can send to you. I’m like, “No, no, no, no, no, no, no.” Thank God no one was in there. But, like, there’s a reason there are guardrails, and it’s not just like, oh, it, you know... But, but like from a practical standpoint, it communicates to children that this is sacred, that we don’t touch that.[00:35:45] And it’s the same in, like, an adult’s house, right? Like, this is my white living room for entertaining. We have a little kid fence here. You don’t walk in it. Like, kids understand the rails, okay? And that’s why we had those those stained glass windows. Like, little, you know, [00:36:00] they, they can’t understand what’s happening, even if, if the, if the mass is in English.[00:36:03] Malcolm Collins: That, that’s true. Yeah. They’re like comic books of what happened- Yeah ... in the Bible.[00:36:07] Simone Collins: Yeah. And, like, when you start to take these things away, or you, like, make the stained glass all, like, abstract and ugly-[00:36:12] Malcolm Collins: Well, no, they take them away after... They don’t even remember the utility of something like that by the time there’s no kids left.[00:36:19] Yeah. They don’t remember why you would have something like[00:36:21] Simone Collins: that. Right. Yeah, because, like, what kid in the church is running up, you know, into the, the sanctuary? ‘Cause there aren’t any kids to run into the sanctuary. It, it, it makes no sense.[00:36:28] Malcolm Collins: But if you, if you, if you, if you go over... I wanna go over all the individual things that really piss the church off.[00:36:32] So one was they, they wanted more ecumenicalism. Yeah. Or sorry, less ecumenicalism. They’re like- Yeah,[00:36:37] Simone Collins: yeah, yeah, yeah ... “[00:36:37] Malcolm Collins: Look, you can be nice to people of other religions while saying they’re wrong,” right? And the Vatican- Mm-hmm ... is like, “No, you can’t,” basically. Yeah.[00:36:43] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:36:43] Malcolm Collins: Yeah,[00:36:43] Simone Collins: yeah, yeah.[00:36:44] Malcolm Collins: They, they, The council teaching-[00:36:46] Simone Collins: They also teach on religious freedom, like that there’s[00:36:48] Malcolm Collins: this core doctrinal- Yeah, that people have a right to religious freedom.[00:36:50] Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and, and or that there are even false religions contradicts earlier popes who taught error has no rights. Yeah. And the Vatican absolutely says no, nothing in Vatican II contradicts previous stuff. Yeah. Whereas SPX says no, there’s... And, and most Protestants say that Vatican II does seem to clearly contradict previous stuff.[00:37:07] Yeah. I, I don’t wanna, like, go over all the, the points in it because of course you have the official Vatican answer, and a lot of Vaticanists will just repeat the official Vatican answer without applying critical thought to is that actually a v- a good answer? Like, did that answer pass for what I need to believe is existentially true about reality?[00:37:25] The new, the new mass versus the Latin mass was actually genuinely one of the reasons why the Vatican excommunicated them. Yeah. Apparently. Yeah. They were just, like, really mad that we might have people who would oppose the new mass, which it-[00:37:39] Simone Collins: Well, and they even, like... So there... It wasn’t... Like, they kept reiterating that, like, we, we don’t do Latin mass.[00:37:45] Like, they kept trying to demote, and demote, and demote Latin mass. So there was even this thing there’s this 2021 decree- No,[00:37:52] Malcolm Collins: if you’re a Vati- Hold on. Before you go further with this, if you’re a Catholic, ask yourself why they’re doing this. Like, the L- Latin mass is- They’re[00:38:00] Simone Collins: trying to take the sacredness out of Catholicism.[00:38:02] It’s,[00:38:02] Malcolm Collins: it’s- It’s so clear ... clearly more popular. It’s- Yeah ... clearly practiced in churches that have lower attrition rates. Yeah. It’s clearly practiced in churches that have higher birth rates. Yeah. The common people love it. Why would you remove something like that if-[00:38:16] Simone Collins: Well, yeah, and Latin mass is harder.[00:38:18] Like, it, it’s like I, I guess it’s like a, a, a, oh, God, what’s it... de- denying an A to the student who, like, actually does all the homework and takes all the tests and gets perfect scores[00:38:34] Malcolm Collins: That’s a, that’s a great way to put it if you’re looking at it in, like, America. It’s like you are intentionally punishing your highest fidelity highest performing, highest vitalist, highest community-[00:38:46] Simone Collins: Yeah[00:38:46] Malcolm Collins: part of your religion. Why would you do that? Like, I want you to think. Yeah.[00:38:50] Simone Collins: They’re like, “No, no, no, no. We’re pass-fail. We, no, you’re out. You can’t-” No,[00:38:54] Malcolm Collins: no, the reason you would do that is if your explicit goal was the demoralization and destruction of the institution.[00:39:03] Simone Collins: It, it really feels that way. It super feels that way.[00:39:07] There’s so, anyway, the, there’s, there was this thing in ‘21, 2021 called the Tradici- Traditionis Custodis that was this decree by Pope Francis that imposed strong limits on celebrating the traditional Latin mass according to the 1962 Roman Missal. It requires that bishops get Vatican permission for certain uses of the old rite, and it generally discouraged new communities from using it.[00:39:34] And in practice what, what some of our friends who are Catholics have seen is that it’s just, like, shoved to, like, one corner of a church and, like, basically hidden as much as possible. So they not only, like, as much as they were like, “Oh, sure,” like, “We’re fine with you. You can stay.” They’re, they get mad every time they consecrate bishops, every time, you know, they, they get really excited about Latin mass.[00:39:56] They’re like, “Oh, but, like, mm, why don’t you just do it, like, behind... [00:40:00] Why don’t you do it by the trash dumpster?” You know, like, “Go do it there.” It, it’s, they’re just, they’re being so mean.[00:40:07] Malcolm Collins: Well, because I, I, like, I, like, this isn’t even conspiratorial, and I’m, I’m asking AI to try to figure this out.[00:40:14] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:40:14] Malcolm Collins: Why are they against the more popular form of the mass that seems to do better?[00:40:23] Simone Collins: Yeah, that’s a good question. So[00:40:27] Malcolm Collins: Okay, so the main reason comes from Vatican II.[00:40:30] Simone Collins: Well, yeah. And when that, that’s the core thing. I mean, like again, the core thing of SSPX is Vatican II runs counter to the Catholic Church. Man, what hap- like who’s idea[00:40:42] Malcolm Collins: was Vatican II? Oh, because they believe that the Latin Mass, well, this is their argument. They say it detracts from the unity of the church specifically the unique expression of lex orandi or the law of worship of the Roman Rite. So basically because some Catholics are practicing in a way that’s different from other Catholics even if it’s more popular and better in any way, they, they’re, they’re antagonistic to it[00:41:07] That’s wild[00:41:11] Simone Collins: It’s, a- again, it’s, it’s, it’s queen bee, mean girl assertion of authority. It’s that classic governance thing. I mean, I, I, I see the point that you’re making, but it’s also the whole, like, you’re questioning my authority and if I don’t crack down, my authority is going to become increasingly undermined.[00:41:28] And when I say, like, “Don’t do this,” and they keep doing it, then what, what does my rule mean anymore? Yeah. But we can jump to- No,[00:41:35] Malcolm Collins: but I mean, the... It’s, it’s really important to note that the, the the point of no return for all of this is always putting somebody into a position where they might be able to vote on what is true in Catholicism.[00:41:49] Simone Collins: Right. Yeah. Well, but clearly the Vatican’s not gonna, not gonna let anyone get close to making differences there, so what does it matter, basically? I think honestly, the more that SSPX moves away from this, the better. In fact, I kind of wish they were doing what the Anglican Church has done. So I’ll let you know what’s going on there.[00:42:15] ‘Cause you... Are you aware of what’s going on with the Anglican schism?[00:42:18] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, they elected a lady bishop.[00:42:21] Simone Collins: Well, no. Okay, yeah, so- A lady pope. Basically a l- a, a bunch of other groups primarily... What is it? There’s... It’s GAFCON, but what’s, what does the acronym stand for? The Global Anglican Future Conference has basically been like, “All right.[00:42:37] We’re, we’re not with the Archbishop of Canterbury anymore. Like, we’re not gonna share communion. I’m not with stupid anymore. Like, we’re not doing this.” And so as much as they’re trying to not describe this as a schism, they prefer to call it a realign- a realignment or a reformation. And they’re trying to say, “We’re not founding a new church.[00:43:01] We’re just restoring Anglicanism around its original doctrinal center.” They’re[00:43:08] Malcolm Collins: functionally- The Bible. That’s a pretty naughty thing to... Oh. Well, I mean, if you are electing an, a lady pope, which is what the Anglicans did. So w- the reason I call her lady pope, important to understand who the Anglicans are when England became Protestant the Crown really still liked the idea of a state religion and Catholicism more broadly.[00:43:26] He was like a fervent, Henry VIII was a fervent Catholic, like so much that the pope, like, gave him a special award or something as like a defender of the c- the faith. Until the pope, out of, like, you know, sh- sheer douchiness really it was, it was, “Oh, well, that’s my niece or something who you’d have to divorce to have a kid,” and Henry had to have a kid.[00:43:46] If he didn’t have a male son- Yeah ... it could have led to a civil war- Yeah ... which would have led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people and countless suffering and children dying. Like, what he was doing-[00:43:58] Simone Collins: Like, Queen Catherine of Aragorn was [00:44:00] what, like his niece or something? Or like, there was a fam- Family relation.[00:44:03] It was just never[00:44:03] Malcolm Collins: gonna happen It was a family relation, that’s why he wouldn’t let him. Yeah. Which again, like this shows the problem, corruption in the church-[00:44:09] Simone Collins: Yeah ...[00:44:09] Malcolm Collins: that led to Protestantism because without the English... But anyway, so the English become Protestant. Mm-hmm. And they’re, they, but they try to keep their version[00:44:17] Simone Collins: of Protestantism- Yeah, like they need their Protestant pope, and that’s the Archbishop[00:44:21] Malcolm Collins: of Canterbury[00:44:21] as, as, as a, as, as Catholic-y as, as possible.[00:44:24] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:44:25] Malcolm Collins: And that group is the group called the Anglicans. Mm-hmm. And this group in early America was heavily, like early Americans hated the Anglicans. We, we, early Americans, thought they were basically just another shade of Catholicism. Yeah. And, and were just as suspicious as Catholics.[00:44:39] But anyway- Yeah ... continue.[00:44:41] Simone Collins: Yeah. So anyway this is something that’s been a slow burn over the past 20 to 30 years. Conservative Anglican provinces, especially in the Global South, so like outside the UK- Yeah ... have just continued to like slowly step away from the Church of England and other liberal Western provinces that have Anglican churches over issues like same-sex blessings and women’s ordination, because they just started doing that out of nowhere.[00:45:08] And this culminated in 2025 and 2026 into this formal break where at the Global Anglican Future Conference, also known as GAFCON allied provinces decided that they would no longer officially represent or recognize the authority of the Archbishop of Canterbury or the traditional instruments of the communion.[00:45:33] So they are not gonna participate in meetings called by the Archbishop of Canterbury. They’re not going to the archbishop’s birthday party anymore. They’re not gonna contribute to the Anglican communion structures. They will amend constitutions to remove references to Canterbury. Like, we are just erasing her from our diary.[00:45:52] We’re deleting her from our contact book. She’s out. And this has roughly split the Anglican community in half with each side claiming that like, “I’m the official Anglican community.” “No, I’m the official Anglican[00:46:08] Malcolm Collins: community.” Yeah, and this is what it comes down to when there’s this real hatred of the idea, even if like structurally an individual is schismatic- Yeah[00:46:17] of admitting that they’re schismatic, right?[00:46:19] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:46:20] Malcolm Collins: And-[00:46:20] Simone Collins: But I, this is, I think this is what SSPX should honestly be doing. I think they should be like Look, we’ve tried to play nice with the Vatican. They have shown repeatedly that they are not actually Catholic anymore. Here are, like, the bazillion reasons why.[00:46:35] We are the Catholic Church now. Like, they’re being way too nice. They need to be a ton more aggressive. And another element of this that I think makes it so troublesome is, is aside from the governance issues that you revealed, that you surfaced in this episode and emphasized, the, the Vatican actually has a, a monetary incentive to lean in to this heretical but also very low fertility segment of its, of its, like, strategy.[00:47:07] Because when you have all these Catholic schools and all these convents and all these monasteries shutting down- Ooh ... because no one’s left in the area, guess what you get to do? You get to sell it to, like, Katy Perry and make millions of dollars. And- The[00:47:24] Malcolm Collins: pope in his fancy red shoes.[00:47:26] Simone Collins: No, they’re literally, like, King Henry VIII-ing their own church.[00:47:30] They’re selling it- Yeah ... for parts. And I think that also- For their gay[00:47:34] Malcolm Collins: sex parties.[00:47:35] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:47:36] Well, and look, we have issues... I think you even... We, we may have covered this in an episode, but we never ran it. Those nuns who, like, refused to leave this convent that they tried to shut down. Mm. And they’re like no, we don’t wanna leave.[00:47:48] Like, we, we, this is our convent, and what are you talking about?” And they’re like, “No, you gotta go. You gotta go.” Oh my God, we almost bought a convent-[00:47:55] Malcolm Collins: Yeah ...[00:47:56] Simone Collins: through being sold. Well, like, fun- Yeah ... the fundraising didn’t work. We wanted to turn it [00:48:00] into a a like a village with a, a lab school that, like, a bunch of high fertility families could live in and commute to New York City.[00:48:07] It was, it was so beautiful. But yeah, they, they were, they were selling it because there weren’t enough nuns left. I mean, isn’t that just so convenient for the Church? There’s also, it’s not just about maintaining this control and disenfranchise people who can undermine their authority. It’s about, like, oh, actually, it’s not so bad that all these people are just disappearing because in the, in the immediate aftermath of that, we get money, and we like money.[00:48:36] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, well, we need it to fund our lifestyle, right? And, and keep in mind that the people with positions of power, you wanna be popular at the UN, you wanna be popular with the urban monoculture- Yeah ... you push for ecumenicalism[00:48:48] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah And[00:48:49] Malcolm Collins: it’s so funny-[00:48:49] Simone Collins: And again, like it’s just so similar to what’s happening with Anglicanism where they’re like, “No, we’re not, we’re not doing this same-sex marriage.[00:48:55] We’re not doing female pri-,” like we’re, it, this isn’t, this isn’t us[00:48:58] Malcolm Collins: I, I also like keep in mind how crazy our position should sound to somebody. That us non-Catholics, we have many doctrinal disagreements with Catholicism. We’re like, “What is your biggest disagreement?” It’s that you’re too ecumenical. And like, but that means they’re more open to people like you, and I’m like, “They shouldn’t be.[00:49:19] They should have pride in their beliefs and d- and double down on how they’re different.”[00:49:24] Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s crazy. They... I think these are the really the key schisms to watch. There’s also a schism that’s taking place in the Orthodox Church, but it’s not that big of a deal. It’s, it’s that more since 2018, the Russian Orthodox Church has severed Eucharistic communion with the Ecumenical Patriarch- Patri- Patriarchate, is that what they’re called, of Constantinople, and, and some other- Mm-hmm[00:49:53] churches, like in Greece and Alexandria and Cyprus. Specifically because let’s see. O- one of them, I think Constantinople granted independence to the Orthodox Church of Ukraine in 2018 ‘cause, I don’t know, maybe Russia was invading Ukraine, and it seemed kind of unfair to Constantinople. So they’re like, “Well, I guess since you’re not friends anymore-[00:50:19] Malcolm Collins: Do they get a new bishop?[00:50:20] you’re,[00:50:20] Simone Collins: you’re independent now. Like, y- y- you can do your own thing.” And the Russian Pat- the Moscow Patriarchate specifically was like, “Hey, you can’t do that. On whose authority do you do that?” And so then essentially they’re like, “Well, my religious tokens aren’t accepted in the same way that yours are.”[00:50:42] And, and so it’s, it’s really weird. Like, it doesn’t... Practically speaking, it, it doesn’t really make a whole ton of sense to me. It,[00:50:51] Malcolm Collins: it’s- Well, I mean, I would think that the plurality of patriarchs voting should have the ability to outvote a single patriarch.[00:50:58] Simone Collins: It’s not exactly, but it’s, it’s both sides still s- share the same theology and the same sacrament, so this isn’t a doctrinal disagreement.[00:51:07] It’s more about, like, who’s allowed to declare whom[00:51:12] Malcolm Collins: independent. But this is, this is very different. So-[00:51:14] Simone Collins: Yeah ...[00:51:14] Malcolm Collins: the, the, the in, in this case it is something that in 100 years nobody’s gonna care about, right? Like,[00:51:21] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah. Well, and I’m sure, like, it, it, it’s... The s- stuff is gonna change, and there’s gonna be a point in time at which Moscow is no longer not out of no longer out of communion with the other Orthodox churches.[00:51:34] It’s just that right now- Yeah, this isn’t like an[00:51:35] Malcolm Collins: existential issue like the Latins[00:51:36] Simone Collins: pope ... not at all. It, it just, it just has to do with the war. That’s it. It’s, it’s gonna, it’s gonna end.[00:51:41] Malcolm Collins: What... The, the, the, the, what’s happening with the Anglicans is-[00:51:44] Simone Collins: That is[00:51:44] Malcolm Collins: so different ... absolutely existential.[00:51:46] Simone Collins: Well, and it’s the same kind of...[00:51:47] It’s the same broad trend as what’s happening with SSPX. It’s basically with the multiple churches, the Anglican Church, the Catholic Church, there’s a subset that’s like- ... “What are you doing? This is not what we’re about.” And then there’s this other [00:52:00] subset that’s like- ... “What are you talking about? I’m gonna do what I want.[00:52:02] Like, church? No, everyone’s kinda right. And also money, yay.” And that’s, that’s what, you know... I’m, I’m just really hoping that- Those who are really leaning in to hard religion win in the long run[00:52:15] Malcolm Collins: Hold on. I’m, I’m gonna ask you like what is the, even the mechanism if popes appoint... Okay, continue with your thought.[00:52:24] Simone Collins: Well, no, I just, I, I know that you pointed out this hopeless view that from a, a bureaucratic standpoint, there’s no reversing w- the Vatican. Like they’re just going to run themselves into the ground functionally. But my hope is that as SSPX keeps growing, and that these other hard religious versions of Catholicism and Anglicanism grow, that they’re just going to become the new de facto churches.[00:52:52] Like, there’s not g- it’s, it’s just gonna be the Vatican in name only. I mean, maybe, maybe there will never, there won’t really be a Vatican City for the Catholic Church in the future. Like it just won’t happen anymore, but does that even matter? I mean, you, you really don’t need[00:53:12] Malcolm Collins: this[00:53:12] Simone Collins: to[00:53:12] Malcolm Collins: be[00:53:12] Simone Collins: an independent[00:53:12] Malcolm Collins: country.[00:53:13] Well, I mean, when Italy becomes a Muslim majority country, right, which it will,[00:53:15] Simone Collins: You don’t need it anymore anyway. Yeah ...[00:53:17] Malcolm Collins: I mean it just, it, it won’t make sense for it to be the, In, in short answer, there’s really nothing... So I’m trying to figure this out. Yeah, you cannot in Catholicism take back power using demographics or fanaticism[00:53:29] Simone Collins: Hmm.[00:53:29] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, the j- pope appoints the cardinals, the cardinals vote on the pope. There’s no, there’s no way into it. A little[00:53:34] Simone Collins: sus. Wow, okay.[00:53:36] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, the only thing that it could potentially do is it creates, like, a larger pool, and there just aren’t as many potential candidates for cardinal for the pope to select from that would not share their beliefs.[00:53:53] The problem is, is you don’t need a large portion, right? Like, and, and the secondary problem is, is that because of the Catholic priest caste becomes separated from mainstream society, they’re not as affected by the conservative views of that society. And I’ve really seen this on the people who we know who have gone the route of Catholic priest or nun.[00:54:15] It’s, they basically get separated from anyone who’s not in the priesthood or who’s not a nun. And so the wider political battle of the Catholics who have these large families is not something that they are... That- that’s not their world anymore, right? Like, that’s not- Yeah ... reaching them to the same extent, which means that even if you control, like, the vast majority of the laypeople choking the access.[00:54:43] What you really have to do is choke the access of this counter-religion or, or re- progressive sort of elitist religion choke the access to cardinal candidates that come from this, right? Like, because, because as long as they’re... It’s not like the pope’s choosing cardinal candidates at random. He’s choosing the ones that agree with his, his viewpoint.[00:55:00] So you need there to not be just, like, 80% of the cardinal candidates are, are, would vote the way that you want. You need to remove the 20% that wouldn’t, and getting to that point is essentially impossible.[00:55:13] Simone Collins: Yeah. Absolutely.[00:55:15] Malcolm Collins: Which is wild. A- a- and especially keep in mind the demographic realities and threats that a lot of the Catholic majority countries are going to be facing as well.[00:55:27] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. Let’s, Fascinating. It’s all around quite fascinating. I, we’re, we’re glad to be techno-puritans. Not our problem.[00:55:36] Malcolm Collins: Not[00:55:36] Simone Collins: our problem. Okay[00:55:36] ...[00:55:36] Simone Collins: You guys figure it out. We, we love you. Well, okay, I, I love you guys. M- Malcolm? Yes.[00:55:41] Malcolm Collins: I, I, I like them as human beings. But I like-[00:55:45] Simone Collins: You agree at least that they have the best, Cath- Catholics, not Anglicans, have the best clothing, so.[00:55:51] Malcolm Collins: They do have the best clothing. I, yeah,[00:55:53] Simone Collins: absolutely. All right. So you got that concession from Malcolm, okay? Take it.[00:55:55] Malcolm Collins: It, it’s a, it’s the best styles. Well, because it looks like a gay person designed them all, [00:56:00] and gays are good designers.[00:56:01] Simone Collins: They’re the best. Yeah. I mean-[00:56:03] ...[00:56:03] Simone Collins: In my opinion ...[00:56:04] Malcolm Collins: you know, you, you can’t get, uh[00:56:06] If, if you’re going uniforms, Catholics are, like, just under Nazis. You know, may- maybe, maybe at the same level, right? When we’re talking nice-[00:56:14] Simone Collins: Oh, Lord, Malcolm. Everybody agrees- I[00:56:16] Malcolm Collins: really enjoy it with you ... that Nazis had hot uniforms.[00:56:19] Simone Collins: No, it’s true. It’s, it’s true.[00:56:20] Malcolm Collins: There,[00:56:20] Simone Collins: This is- this is why we had all these problems- If somebody tells you-[00:56:23] in, like, East Asia, where all these, like, young teens and stuff would be seen wearing SS uniforms, and they’d have no understanding, you know, ‘cause they just found, like, this cool-looking cosplay outfit online. They’re like, “I’m gonna buy that one,” and struttin’ around, not having any understanding of what they represent.[00:56:40] Malcolm Collins: It’s crazy. No. Well, I mean, you know, they look good. It’s a good look. It’s a good look. Whatever, right? I know, it’s, it’s a great look. Like, it’s[00:56:46] Simone Collins: not- It’s fantastic. Yeah.[00:56:47] Malcolm Collins: I, I think you know, it’s, it’s e- if I was younger, I think it’s a, a look more for younger people. But, ...[00:56:53] Simone Collins: Nazi uniforms are a young person look?[00:56:56] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, they w- they work a bit, yeah, better on younger people.[00:56:58] Simone Collins: Yeah, you have to have a svelte body, yeah. If you have, like, a paunch, you, it ruins the entire line of the outfit. Mm-hmm. It’s absolutely true. Or if you hunch. It, it is only for people with amazing posture, high discipline, high fitness, et cetera. I totally agree.[00:57:12] Malcolm Collins: That’s a, that’s a, I guess, a point. But- But[00:57:14] Simone Collins: you can do that and also be of advanced age as is shown by the Nazi-inspired uniforms in Star Wars, where you have some Imperial officers who are definitely on the older side who still look pretty good in their uniforms. So I’ll push back a little bit on that.[00:57:28] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But I’m, I’m sort of in this position of, like, I wish that there was something that they could do. I wish that there was a realistic pathway to taking back the church. I just don’t see it right now. Oh,[00:57:40] Simone Collins: I think they should take the Anglican route. I think they should be like, “All right. We’re, we’re the Catholic Church now.”[00:57:44] Malcolm Collins: But there’s already groups of Catholics that have done that.[00:57:47] Simone Collins: Oh, yeah? I didn’t think of those.[00:57:49] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, they basically said that the blank council was, the, the, the Vatican was taken over from- The Second Vatican,[00:57:53] Simone Collins: yeah ...[00:57:54] Malcolm Collins: well, no, b- but before that. Like, the Vatican- Oh ... was taken over through an unfair election, which is, yeah, actually kind of plausibly true.[00:58:00] So[00:58:02] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:58:03] Malcolm Collins: You[00:58:03] Simone Collins: could say that- Well, I mean, everyone went super into the lore of how popes are selected the last time that happened, you know, with Pope Leo, and I think it became fairly clear to a lot of people that, like, this process is not exactly optimal. You know, whatever.[00:58:20] Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, it’s, it’s not about...[00:58:22] A- a- and that’s part of the thing. It, it’s, it’s, it’s not about what the average Catholic thinks or wants, you know? It’s about what the elite think or want. It’s just- Yeah ... I don’t think anyone e- imagined that the elite would be captured by this sort of alternate religious mindset.[00:58:37] Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It, it, yeah, it’s kind of like you could say representative democracy where Americans were like, “Look, I trust our essentially landed gentry to make good decisions for us,” except what if suddenly that group of people just became alien and completely separated from the interests of the larger laypeople?[00:58:56] Malcolm Collins: Well, the elite within our country as well, within most religions, are disproportionately captured by the urban monoculture.[00:59:02] Simone Collins: Mm.[00:59:02] Malcolm Collins: In the United States, if you said, “Well, only the elite, quote, unquote, ‘elite’ in the country, the, the, the, the wealthiest or the you know, those who had o- over a certain IQ could vote,” you’d get way more Democratic candidates.[00:59:17] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:59:18] Malcolm Collins: Anyway, I love you.[00:59:20] Simone Collins: I love you too.[00:59:21] Malcolm Collins: Interesting topic.[00:59:22] Simone Collins: Fun stuff. It’s always nice to talk about popes.[00:59:24] Malcolm Collins: Next we’ll do my book from when I was a kid.[00:59:27] Simone Collins: All right. Perfect.[00:59:28] Malcolm Collins: And then, all right. I’m ready.[00:59:32] Simone Collins: Okay.[00:59:33] Malcolm Collins: Love you[00:59:34] Simone Collins: I love you too.[00:59:36] Speaker 14: Oh, yes. Oh, no, no, stay down here. Stay down here. Stay down here. I can hear an echo. Come back. Come back. It’s an echo, right? Yeah[00:59:52] Speaker 13: Or something? They do nothing Well, there’s no church services taking place right now The church, [01:00:00] churches is taking place Church services, yeah. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

In this Based Camp episode, Malcolm and Simone Collins dive deep into the modern Luddite movement — from NYC’s “Summer of Ludd” festival (complete with puppet spokesfrogs, offline flirting workshops, saddle-stitching classes, and panels that somehow turned into “how to build your own website” tutorials) to the surprising privilege, aesthetics, and contradictions behind today’s anti-tech trend.We compare Gen Z and millennial “Luddites” (flip phones, Moleskine notebooks, and performative offline living) with the original violent 19th-century machine-breakers, explore why deep, hours-long online friendships often feel more meaningful than awkward park conversations, and critique the expensive ecosystem of minimalist phones and typewriters. We also highlight more practical approaches from Mennonite communities and make the case for Solar Punk — using AI and technology intentionally to reclaim traditional skills, build sustainable futures, and live better rather than rejecting progress altogether.Show Notes“The Summer of Ludd”* A cultural high point for the movement’s analog/anti-alienation wing.* An eight-day (June 28–July 5, 2026), mostly offline festival and series of events in New York City* Centered on Tompkins Square Park and Lower Manhattan* It features over 120 free, public, participatory activities like:* Workshops (e.g., saddle stitching, shortwave radio, mending, flirting/dating offline).* Talks and panels (e.g., on indie web alternatives, privately owned public spaces, fighting data centers, “Google in Real Life” human Q&A).* Gothamist: “At a Monday panel discussion on NYC event calendars, an array of neighborhood characters, older punks, fresh-faced flip phone users and various others packed the stone steps of East Village community garden La Plaza Cultural to discuss ways to learn of IRL happenings without social media.”* “Overall, the evening was largely a technical discussion on how to build and maintain your own website or newsletter. It never got particularly ideological.”* ““It’s not a digital versus analog thing. It’s a question of who controls how your community operates itself. Is it Mark Zuckerberg or you?” explained Thomas. “You are not an idle passenger of history. You get to control the impact that technology has on you and your society.””* Cultural events: Plays recreating Luddite history, concerts, film screenings (analog/16mm), zine-making, rituals, and phone-free dance parties or jam sessions.* Orgs represented:* NYC Off Tech NYC events to connect outside of big tech* Unplatform: The definitive guide for escaping social media (and joining the indie web.)* Red Cal: Posters of offline events* Nonsense NYC: Nonsense NYC is a discriminating resource for independent art, weird events, strange happenings, unique parties, and senseless culture in New York City.* Technoqueers: Technoqueers.com is the home of “Techno Queers,” a weekly email newsletter and community focused on techno/club events, culture, and queer nightlife, primarily in New York City.* Moon Bulletin: events and happenings in (mostly) nyc, according to moon cycle* The People’s Circuit: and an encrypted, Proton Mail-based email newsletterOrganizers (anonymous or using puppets like “Gowanus” for media) promote it as a “movable feast” to encourage IRL community, reject algorithmic control, and build alternatives to Big Tech monopolies.Marketing relies on wheatpastes, printed guides, and word-of-mouth—no heavy social media presence.Reports as of early July indicate strong turnout, energetic crowds (including Gen Z, locals, families, and older activists), and success beyond expectations despite minimal online promo.It’s tied to broader “Luddite Renaissance” efforts and overlaps with events like the Luddite Conference on Participatory Futures at The New School.The New Luddite MovementThe forms it takes:* Anti data center activism (we did a whole episode on this)* Protests* Mostly peaceful (rallies, marches, “Luddite tribunals,” app-deletion events, coning self-driving cars).* There are reports of escalating tensions (archived), vandalism, sabotage threats, or isolated violence (e.g., attacks on data center supporters, self-driving vehicles, or symbolic targets like OpenAI exec homes), though the core movement distances itself from outright destruction. Insurance and security discussions highlight rising risks to AI infrastructure in 2026.* E.g. “an Indianapolis city council member who supported a data center development told local outlets someone fired 13 shots at his home and left behind a note reading, “No data centers.””* School clubs (high school andcollege):* NY Times: Now in College, Luddite Teens Still Don’t Want Your Likes (archive link)* Members use flip phone and advertise human connection* One teenage luddite club in Brooklyn that the NY Times profiled in 2022: “they sketched and painted side by side. They read quietly, favoring works by Dostoyevsky, Kerouac and Vonnegut. They sat on logs and groused about how TikTok was dumbing down their generation. Their flip phones were decorated with stickers and nail polish.”* Years later, most former members maintained their relatively offline ways and were turning their club into a nonprofit* One detracted: ““It’s constant access again,” Ms. Shub said. “It’s the relief of knowing I can do things easier. I got Instagram, too, and it’s been nice reconnecting with people on it.”* ““We’ve even got a mission statement now,” said Ms. Lane, who is studying Russian literature at Oberlin College. “We like to say we’re a team of former screenagers connecting young people to the communities and knowledge to conquer big tech’s addictive agendas.””* There’s a weird undertone of privilege in the article:* “Winter Jacobson, who was in town from Colorado to visit Ms. Butler [one of the former Luddite Club members], was sitting next to her. He started a Luddite Club at Telluride High School last year. He said it has a dozen members.* “Colorado is very different from New York,” Mr. Jacobson, 17, said. “There’s not as much to do in Telluride. People are reliant on their phones as their connection to the world, so some of my friends think the club is a joke. I’m still trying to spread the message, though.””The Capitalization* Light phone: The flagship minimalist device. E-ink or simple touchscreen, limited tools (calls, notes, music, basic maps, camera on III), no browser/apps/social media/email feeds by design. Premium build, expensive (~$300–$700 range). Widely seen as the gold standard for “going light” and digital detox; strong cultural cachet in Luddite/analog communities.* Mudita Kompakt ($399): E-ink screen for calmer use, excellent battery, privacy switches (kill GSM/mic/etc.), offline maps, basic apps. More flexible than Light Phone but still minimalist. Popular for privacy-focused users and long battery life.* Minimal Phone: ($449) E-ink touchscreen + QWERTY keyboard, some Android apps (controllable). Good for balanced minimalism.* Punkt MP02: ($299) Ultra-minimal button phone focused on calls/texts.* Freewrite (Astrohaus) typewriters (Gen 3 Smart Typewriter ($699), Traveler, etc.): These have E-ink screens + full mechanical keyboards, they sync drafts (Postbox/cloud) but lack internet/distractions during writing.* Premium pricing (~$500–$1,000+); popular among writers seeking analog feel with digital convenience. Strong following despite cost; seen as a modern “typewriter” revival tool.What’s odd is one can just set one’s phone to black and white modeAlso, you can get a razor flip phone for $35-100 USD on eBayHow Mennonites Do ItAccording to MennoNet.com: Within conservative Mennonite/Plain circles, you’ll see tools that look very similar to what evangelical or family‑safety communities use:* Accountability apps such as Covenant Eyes and CloudVeil, which log activity or filter content and send reports to an accountability partner or family administrator.* “The Security Appliance,” a content‑filtering solution developed “for and by the Plain Community,” used at the network level in some fellowships to restrict categories of sites and manage what devices can access.* Other web filters like OpenDNS FamilyShield and similar DNS‑based filters, which can be configured on home or business Wi‑Fi to block entire categories of content.On top of community-specific tools, many Mennonites simply use the native controls in Android and iOS the same way cautious parents do:* iOS Screen Time and Google Family Link to set app limits, “downtime” schedules, and block certain categories (social, games, entertainment).* Content & privacy restrictions to block adult content and prevent installing unapproved apps.In practice, a phone may be configured so only a whitelist of “necessary” apps (phone, text, perhaps WhatsApp/Signal, maps, farm/business software) is accessible outside of designated work times.General social norms are also super effective:* Mennonites are super clear about when and where devices may be used (e.g., no phones in bedrooms, at church, or during meals; only in the office or shop).* They often use hared or supervised devices: a single smartphone for a household or business, kept in a central location rather than carried at all times, limits impulsive and private use while allowing work contacts.* There are expectations around accountability (elders, employers, spouses) so misuse is a social issue as much as a technical one.The Original Luddite MovementThe Luddite movement (1811–1816) arose among skilled English textile workers (primarily framework knitters/stockingers in Nottinghamshire, croppers/shearers in Yorkshire, and weavers in Lancashire) during the Industrial Revolution. (Brittanica)* They protested machinery (e.g., wide knitting frames, shearing frames, power looms) that enabled cheaper, unskilled labor, lowered wages, degraded quality, and threatened livelihoods amid economic pressures from the Napoleonic Wars, poor harvests, and rising food prices.* The movement was named after the (likely mythical) Ned Ludd, who allegedly smashed stocking frames in 1779What they did:* Form oath-bound secret groups, some of which ran military-style drills* Raid factories and break machines (starting in Nottingham in 1911)* Luddites broke over 1,000 frames/machintes, costing manufacturers thousands of pounds* Send threatening letters (signed by Ned Ludd or General Ludd)* Attack mills (e.g. the Rawfolds Mill in 1812)* Assassinate manufacturers (At least one man, William Horsfall, was murdered)There weren’t actually that many* Low thousands at its peak* Raids involved dozens to approximately 100 men* Estimates of sympathizers reached 7-8K in some areasThe movement was super short lived (met with military force and harsh laws)How They CompareFeels like most modern luddites are more just craving early 2000s tech use.Feels more like a market correction than anything elseEpisode Transcript[00:00:00] Malcolm Collins: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. The, the, the Luddite event turned into an explanation of how to build your own website?[00:00:11] That’s what they were doing? The Lud-[00:00:12] Simone Collins: They’re... Yeah, this is a little bit confusing. it’s kind of rich that many of these people who propose to be Luddites are like, “Well, this is all about human connection. I just wanna have real human connection.” When people have very real human connection online,[00:00:27] Malcolm Collins: , The person I talk to most other than Simone, is Leaflet. And you look at , the like, 10-hour conversations once every two weeks, right?[00:00:36] I would ask you guys, how many people in your life do you have that deep a conversation with I have never seen what Leaflet looks like in real life,, when we talk about, like, an anti-Luddite, they’re like, “Just get to know someone face to face.” I have never interacted once with Leaflet face to face, like, I ask you this sincerely, would , Leaflet and my friendship, be in any way meaningfully enhanced from a flesh to flesh conversation?[00:01:08] Would you like to know more?[00:01:09] Simone Collins: Hello, Malcolm. I’m excited to be speaking with you today because the Luddites are assembling once again, and you would never know it because you’re online and they’re not online.[00:01:19] And should we be worried? Let’s find out. But thank- thanks to Wired Magazine being out there in, you know, walking around Brooklyn, we actually know about this because otherwise, how would we know? We wouldn’t know. Because- But[00:01:30] Malcolm Collins: yet they had to find... What I love about this article they wrote on this group, and if you’re unfamiliar with who the Luddites are historically, they are anti-technologists who do not like technology taking jobs.[00:01:41] Specifically, they wanted women in factories working on looms. Mm-hmm. That- that is- that is, they believe the natural role of a woman for all of human history is being in a factory and working on a loom. But they found this in a store. Like, in a human-[00:01:54] Simone Collins: Yeah, so I’m- I’m reading from the- the Wired article itself called Inside the Luddite Festival: Harnessing Gen Z’s Rage Against Big Tech.[00:02:01] Rage. That sounds ominous. The author says, “I found out about the event in a serendipitously offline way. Earlier in June, I was with a friend in the East Village, and we got caught in a summer downpour. As I was waiting it out in the Museum of Reclaimed Urban Space, a small venue that documents the neighborhood’s history of activism, I found the booklet covering the Summer of Ludd’s events among other zines, posters, and pamphlets.[00:02:26] So here I am, phone tucked away, notebook out, Playbill in hand,” ‘cause, of course, our tech author attended. She’s not[00:02:32] Malcolm Collins: allowed to use technology. But what, what’s crazier about this- She ... she, you and I w- haven’t been in the type of a venue where we could even presumably find an invitation to a group like this-[00:02:45] Simone Collins: Yeah[00:02:45] Malcolm Collins: probably in at least half a decade.[00:02:50] Simone Collins: I guess you’re right. Yeah, so we would never know. I mean, thank goodness, right? Thank goodness.[00:02:55] Malcolm Collins: I mean, they’re not, they’re not posting these at the local BJ’s or Walmart, so- Yeah. ... where else do we go?[00:03:01] Simone Collins: Yeah, well, I mean, I think you have to be like Victoria El- Elliot, the author of this article, walking around, you know, in sort of bougie places in New York City, and that’s actually a theme.[00:03:10] The more I dug into the modern Luddite movement, the more I discovered that- It’s, it’s kind of extremely bougie. Th- you know I[00:03:20] Malcolm Collins: would imagine it is.[00:03:22] Simone Collins: Yeah, it’s it’s, it’s very... This is in stark contrast to the original Luddite movement, which we’ll also just go over at the end to kind of see, like, okay, how are these different?[00:03:30] How are these the same? But-[00:03:31] Malcolm Collins: No, people with sh- to worry about in their lives have no reason to be doing this stuff. No, they’re like, you can’t do this whole, “Oh, I’m not gonna have a phone. I’m not gonna have a computer on me. I’m not gonna use AI.” W- and what I love is they’re not even just, like, anti-AI.[00:03:45] They’re anti the whole ecosystem.[00:03:48] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah. I, I felt like we had to cover this particular event, though, this, this Summer of Ludd again, because of the author’s description of it. Just another part of the article that I found very entertaining. “The Summer [00:04:00] of Ludd was preempted with a press conference conducted by the organizer’s spokesperson, Gowanus, the media puppet.[00:04:07] Yes, I am serious. A blue cloth being with soda cap eyes manned by a masked puppeteer. Gowanus was conceived of as a way for the movement to speak to the public and the media without compromising the identities of the event’s organizers, who wish to remain anonymous. According to Gowanus, New York’s Luddite renaissance is, quote, ‘A loose group of organizers that have no formal affiliation as of now, but have been coalescing around noticing similar problems of alienation and over-reliance on big tech,’ end quote.”[00:04:40] So, yeah, this... Basically, though, what, you know...[00:04:44] Malcolm Collins: Daddy’s five minutes.[00:04:44] Simone Collins: At any rate, I wanted to kick off with the Summer of Ludd as sort of our starting point here, because it’s seen as a cultural high point in the movements, specifically analog or and anti-alienation wing. And there are several wings to this, some of which bear more resemblance to the original Luddite movement, and some of which don’t.[00:05:02] But the Summer of Ludd-[00:05:02] Malcolm Collins: Anti-alienation wing? What... Tell me about this. What... Tell me about the wings. Can we s-[00:05:07] Simone Collins: Right. So the different wings are basically this sort of the anti- Hmm ... alienation wing is kind of like, “Well, we feel like social media has not been good for us. We don’t like scrolling on our smartphones.[00:05:18] We would like to performatively be offline,” and very prominently wave around our Moleskine notebooks and analog typewriters, et cetera and, and, you know, meet in clubs. I’ll talk about the clubs. Then there’s the anti-big tech and anti-AI data center agitators. We did a whole episode on the anti-AI center agitation, which is partially funded by outside players who would rather that y- the US not develop a strong AI infrastructure, but there’s also a lot of, I would say, homegrown.[00:05:50] Though, I don’t know, we’ll say, like, fertilizer has been added by outside parties but homegrown concern over data centers. But there are definitely reports of escalating tensions between this particular sect of, like, I guess you could say the modern lud- Luddite movement and Some more violent stuff, like the vandalism, sabotage threats, threats of violence.[00:06:18] I- you’ll recall that an Indianapolis city council member who supported data center development heard 13 shots fired outside his phone, and then when he... Or, of his home, and then when he opened his front door, there was a little note reading, “No data centers.” So people’s lives, it, it is insinuated that his life is being threatened by people who don’t want data centers, right?[00:06:40] So that, I, I think is the, we’ll say more, like, militant branch. But this anti-alienation branch has more to do with things like this festival, with various offline gatherings and events, and then also with basically school clubs. A, a lot of the original new organization that maybe started to trend in the media back in 2022, so this is not exactly brand new was associated with school clubs.[00:07:08] But back to the Summer of Ludd, just so, like, I can cover some of the more important details around that. It seems to be really centered around New York. I didn’t actually hear that much, weirdly, about successful Luddite movements, clubs, events, et cetera, outside of New York City, which is kind of weird as well.[00:07:26] And it’s, it’s actually still happening right now, Malcolm. If we wanted to just drop everything and drive to New York, we could probably attend some Summer of Ludd events. It finishes July 5th, and as of today, it is July 3rd. So-[00:07:41] Malcolm Collins: Second ...[00:07:41] Simone Collins: we could... Mm, no, it’s... Is it? My God, yeah. Okay, so we, yeah, we can we can go.[00:07:48] It’s centered around- What type[00:07:49] Malcolm Collins: of events? Well, I wanna hear about the wings, I wanna hear about the types of events. Yeah, like-[00:07:53] Simone Collins: Yeah, so the, it, it, it has over 120 free public participatory activities. There you can learn [00:08:00] saddle stitching, you can learn how to use a shortwave radio, you can learn, learn how to mend clothing also flirt and date offline.[00:08:08] They have talks and panels, like indie web alternatives privately owned public spaces fighting data centers. So there’s certainly, like, some confluence with the anti-data center protest movement. And also like, I described to you when we were talking earlier today, there’s a Google in real life session where you get to, like, talk to a human expert.. Right. So yeah, there was also that Q&A event where it’s just Google in real life. Like oh my gosh, what if you just asked someone? Except of course it’s not anywhere close to as good as Google, and certainly not as good as any AI search engine that- I[00:08:39] Malcolm Collins: love it that I hear the idea of somebody Googling something, and my thought now is, wow, that’s quite antique.[00:08:46] You know, that’s, that’s a little- Antique ... that’s a little dated. I know, that Google is[00:08:49] Simone Collins: antique[00:08:50] Malcolm Collins: You’re Googling? What, what AI are you using? Googling?[00:08:53] Simone Collins: Googling. Well, of course Google’s trying to serve up Gemini AI, AI answers to everything which people are really mad about, so they’re not even Googling anymore.[00:09:00] But anyway according to Gothamist, which talked about this a little bit as well, quote, “At a Monday panel, discussion on NYC event calendars, an array of neighborhood characters, older punks, “fresh-faced flip phone users, and various others packed at the stone steps of the East Village community garden, La Plaza Cultural, to discuss ways to learn IRL happenings, of IRL happenings without social media.[00:09:25] Overall, the evening was largely a technical discussion on how to build and maintain your own website or newsletter. It never got particularly ideolo- ideological.”[00:09:34] Malcolm Collins: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. The, the, the Luddite event turned into an explanation of how to build your own website?[00:09:46] That’s what they were doing? The Lud-[00:09:47] Simone Collins: They’re... Yeah, this is a little bit confusing. Yeah, a lot of it’s, it’s not actually about being a Luddite. What I’m discovering is that this sort of social element of the movement, they kind of just wanna go back to, like, late 1990s, early 2000s internet with flip phones and with just w- before this, the, the, any sort of social media feed, and not actually go offline, which is interesting.[00:10:12] But-[00:10:12] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it’s very interesting that they’re like, “All technology up to what I got comfortable with when I was a youth is bad.”[00:10:20] Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, I mean, as one person at, at the event put it, it’s not quite a digital versus analog thing. It’s a question of who controls how your community o- operates itself.[00:10:28] “It’s a Mark Zuckerberg or you thing,” explained Thomas. You’re not an idle passenger of history. You get to control the impact of your technology, that your technology has on you and your society. So what a lot of people are trying to do is take back sort of some level of sovereignty, which I think is not inherently bad.[00:10:44] I mean, it’s, it, it, it can be[00:10:46] Malcolm Collins: dangerous- Yeah, no, no. I mean, they, what’s interesting is that makes it a lot like our communities. We’re just a lot more, like- Practical? I mean, the Sky Brown Cinematic Universe, RFAB, which is basically a cinematic universe at this point. By the way, one thing I’ve started working on with RFAB, Simone- Yeah[00:11:00] Just in terms of new features building is a replacement for Descript, because I- Oh. You’ve been having- ... too frequently have issues with Descript Yeah. It’s a useful feature. I think Descript massively overcharges. If, if we did it, we’d be doing it at, like, one-tenth the cost of Descript and I don’t use the vast majority of Descript’s features[00:11:19] Simone Collins: Yeah, you just don’t want to use them.[00:11:20] So yeah,[00:11:21] Malcolm Collins: it would be- I really only need it for, for people who do not know, this is what we use to edit our videos, to automatically take out ums and stuff like that. And so what I would do with this system is use it to edit our videos, but also give it to you guys, so you guys can just, like, move text around and it’ll move around where it is.[00:11:36] Simone Collins: I think it’s a great idea. Yeah ... a, a lot of the organizations present just sound kind of like late ‘90s Seattle-style zines and fliers. So a lot of the orgs that were present when at least, I think, Gothamist was there covering one of the events, or NYC Off Tech, which just does events to connect outside of [00:12:00] big tech.[00:12:00] Like, it’s just dedicated to that. Unplatform, which is a guide to escaping social media. Redcal. And when you go to Redcal’s website, it’s just literally images of posters that people make. Like, the kind of wheat paste posters you might see put up in a city about events and concerts and stuff. Mm-hmm.[00:12:18] But it’s just a website of them. So just in case you’re not walking around the streets of New York City or Brooklyn, you can, you can go to Redcal’s- Wait- ... website to see. Red, how’s that[00:12:28] Malcolm Collins: spelled?[00:12:29] Simone Collins: Let me, let me just send you a link.[00:12:30] It’s cal.red. So pretty easy to type in. Okay, I see. But here’s a, here’s a link[00:12:39] Malcolm Collins: For the streets.[00:12:40] USA[00:12:41] Simone Collins: out of NY, adjacent Yeah, so you can see it’s just a series of the posters. It’s like, well, if I just wanted to see all the wheat paste posters in Brooklyn, I can just go to cal.red, which is not... I mean, like, so this is exactly what they’re talking about. Like, how do we be offline and not have online advertising and not post on Facebook, but still have people come to our events?[00:13:00] Which is, like, this really tough thing to do in modern society. So I do find that somewhat interesting from, like, a just purely logistical, how do we work this out st- standpoint. Then there’s also Moon Bulletin, which is just one person, I guess, talking about what they know is going on, and then also the People’s Circuit, which is this encrypted ProtonMail-based email newsletter.[00:13:19] So the big themes there are, like, I’m really concerned about Mark Zuckerberg knowing everything about me, and you know, I just hate these big tech companies and I don’t wanna be manipulated by social media, so here’s my attempt to live a different type of life. I like the intentionality of it.[00:13:33] Malcolm Collins: No, what’s so interesting about seeing this, and these types of events, and stuff like that is it reminds me of stuff I felt was, like, cool and subversive when I was younger, and I[00:13:45] Simone Collins: see- Yeah, some of it certainly looked like that, yeah[00:13:47] Malcolm Collins: like, a punk thing or, like, a goth thing. Yeah. And I would be like, “I wanna go to this cool subversive whatever.” And what’s wild is, like, now that’s the internet, right? Like- Mm-hmm ... to, to go to one of these you’re just gonna find a bunch of aging hipsters,[00:14:03] Simone Collins: Well, they said that all generations were there, that there were some aging hipsters, but there were also a lot of young people.[00:14:09] So- Hmm ... I, I think that that’s s- interesting[00:14:11] Malcolm Collins: I, I, I think there’s probably some, but yeah, yeah, I, I, I- No, no, no ...[00:14:16] Simone Collins: young people definitely outside Apparently, like, the early reports from this, from this event show that there’s been a lot of a lot, like, really good turnout at these events, a lot of Gen Z, a lot of locals, a lot of families, and then of course older activists too.[00:14:26] But I, what I think is more interesting is that the new Luddite movement in terms of, like, persistent ongoing social clubs is primarily, um is, is primarily Gen Z, but I think that’s because- This is the first generation that was raised as what people describe as, like, iPad babies where they, they actually don’t know what it’s like to be more offline, and when they describe these, like, revolutionary things that they’re doing to live more offline, it just honestly feels a little bit more like our lives.[00:14:56] Because we, we, we intentionally don’t, like, scroll media feeds. We don’t have TikTok on our phones, and, like, that’s kind of as far as they’re going. They’re like, “Well, I just think, you know, TikTok is bad.” Although they try to go a little further, though, you know, to mixed results.[00:15:09] Malcolm Collins: But basically- Yeah, just take down Trek Zone, man.[00:15:11] That’ll, that’ll get you off media feed ...[00:15:12] Simone Collins: no, for real, actually. But I just think that basically millennials and older can’t participate in this movement because they are, by probably kind of the, the standards of younger generations, actually Luddites. Like, actually terminally offline, which, which I think is also quite interesting.[00:15:30] But anyway, there’s this interesting New York Times piece called Now in College, Luddite Teens Still Don’t Want Your Likes. And it’s, it’s this fairly recent New York Times piece that is checking in on a bunch of Luddite teens who had a Luddite club who were first covered by The New York Times in 2022.[00:15:47] So this is four years later, and it’s checking to see, like, are they still offline, which I think is interesting. I, I like that they’re like, “Oh, how persistent is this? How committed are these people?” So most of the members, or at least former members, [00:16:00] still use flip phones and are still very, like, concertedly not online.[00:16:06] One teenage Luddite club in Brooklyn that The New York Times profiled in 2022 that, that really was highlighted in this article- Yeah ... quote, “Sketched and painted side by side, they read quietly, favoring works by Dosto- Dostoyevsky, Kerouac, and Vonnegut. They sat on logs and groused about how TikTok was dumbing down their generation.[00:16:26] The flip- their flip phones were decorated with stickers and nail polish.” Doesn’t that just sound like us as teens?[00:16:33] Malcolm Collins: Yeah.[00:16:34] Simone Collins: That’s just, just, that’s what’s so weird about it is, like, oh, the Luddites. Like, I pictured they’d be, like, weaving or something, but they’re, like, just behaving like we did. I’m like, hold on.[00:16:42] That’s like, I, I didn’t even get a flip phone until really late. So again, this is not what I expected to hear. But years later, most of the former members didn’t go back to, to more heavy tech, but one detracted at least. She wrote, “It’s constant access again. It, it’s the relief of knowing I can do things easier.[00:17:00] I got Instagram too, and it’s been nice re- reconnecting with people on it.” The point being, and I appreciate that she acknowledged this- Mm-hmm ... that when you choose to be offline, you’re just not going to see certain people again. You’re just not gonna communicate with certain people again. Like, it’s this concerted choice- To give up many relationships.[00:17:19] And I think it’s, it’s kind of rich that many of these people who propose to be Luddites are like, “Well, this is all about human connection. I just wanna have real human connection.” When people have very real human connection online, like this morning on Discord and WhatsApp, I had some very personal and deep conversations with people that I’d not, I would not have had if I was-[00:17:40] Malcolm Collins: Well, and what’s wilder is what the personal connections mean for people like us.[00:17:46] Like, the person I talk to most in our lives, other than Simone, is Leaflet. This is both on Discord and on our biweekly chats. And you look at the, the long communications I have with her. It’s this, like, 10-hour conversations once every two weeks, right? Yeah, on our stream. We’re hanging out at night.[00:18:03] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:18:03] Malcolm Collins: Drinking having fun, chatting about life, philosophy, everything under. It’s[00:18:07] Simone Collins: kinda, yeah, it’s like, it’s like a modern symposium, which is really, like, extra old school. Right. And yet super new school. But- So weird.[00:18:14] Malcolm Collins: I would ask you guys, anyone who has seen one of these, like, how many people in your life do you have that deep a conversation with or that deep of a friendship with, right?[00:18:26] That you’re having these really long-form conversations. I have never seen what Leaflet looks like in real life, okay? I, the person I’m interacting with, when we talk about, like, an anti-Luddite, they’re like, “Just get to know someone face to face.” I have never interacted once with Leaflet face to face, and I have no interest in escalating our relationship.[00:18:51] I, that has never been something that is of- Oh,[00:18:54] Simone Collins: you mean like, “We have to visit together. We have to go on a[00:18:57] Malcolm Collins: vacation together.” Yeah, we have to visit. If I drove by where she lived in Texas, I wouldn’t even, I, and she probably wouldn’t even envision- You wouldn’t[00:19:04] Simone Collins: stop. If you were, like, a mile away, you’d be like, “Meh.”[00:19:07] Malcolm Collins: Would our... And, and, and, and to our audience, like, I ask you this sincerely, would our friendship, Leaflet and my friendship, be in any way meaningfully enhanced from a flesh to flesh conversation? Would we know anything meaningfully additional about each other? I mean, maybe what they look ... Like they’re like deformed or been highly misrepresentative of themselves or something like that, but I don’t think they have been.[00:19:34] Like I would gain no additional nature to our friendship. The only thing that requires being in person with someone is having sex with them. And look at the way I interact with my wife on this very screen, right? Like we’re in different rooms. Even with your loved one, sometimes it can be more efficient to communicate with through a screen.[00:19:58] Are we not building our [00:20:00] relationship through conversations like this?[00:20:01] Simone Collins: For real. Yeah, and we, we act like we do it literally in separate rooms of our house. Those are our most effective[00:20:07] Malcolm Collins: conversations. Okay. But now imagine the Luddite, what they’re building in terms of a friendship. So they[00:20:11] Simone Collins: go- They have to sit out in a park you know[00:20:13] Malcolm Collins: They sit in a park-[00:20:14] Simone Collins: Talking[00:20:15] Malcolm Collins: and they awkwardly talk to somebody- About car wax ... who they met at a ... Do you think those conversations are going to be one, one-hundredths as deep as one of the conversations that Leaflet and I have over like 10 hours at midnight? Well, there, I[00:20:26] Simone Collins: bet many people offline have very deep conversations. But what[00:20:29] Malcolm Collins: I’m saying is- No, I’m not saying what the depth-[00:20:30] Simone Collins: the, the number of people you can, you can interact with and the types of people you can interact with are extremely limited when you choose to only interact with those whom you can reach in person[00:20:38] Malcolm Collins: But, but also the depth of the conversation is limited by the format. Mm-hmm. When you are, one, in a park, and two, have a tight time limit on your conversation, like an hour, an hour and a half, you’re just not gonna get to the same type of topics you get to in a 10-hour conversation that’s happening overnight while you’re both, you know, kind of out of it because you’ve been in, interacting for so long.[00:21:00] Yeah. The level of conversation that you’re going to get to ... And I often, the conversations that I have with people in person, especially the ones that, where I meet them in person, because you don’t know as much about their background, because you don’t know what’s gonna offend them, because you don’t know where to go, your conversations start at such a lower level, right?[00:21:18] Like Leaflet and my conversations can start at a very high level because both of us have watched a probably hundreds of hours of the other person’s content before that conversation even started.[00:21:30] Simone Collins: Right. This asynchronous relationship that people are able to have when they consume each other’s content or read each other’s messages asynchronously and then have live conversations, again, there’s this additional level of depth that you can have that you just can’t have otherwise I think.[00:21:44] Malcolm Collins: But it’s, it’s the irony of I don’t even know off the top of my head what her real name is. I do not know what she looks like,[00:21:51] and those things would not ... This is what gets me so much about these Luddites, is they are choosing a form of relationship which is strictly lesser The, the think about the conversations you have on a Discord, like our, our Discord, right?[00:22:08] Yeah. People are coming in after having watched a video and they are interacting with each other in a thread. So they’re having a conversation basically. Now, the depth that they’re gonna have in that conversation is going to be higher than any random conversation in a park because they’re coming into the conversation with a shared context, e.g.[00:22:27] we both watched the information in the video and are now conversing about the information in the video.[00:22:34] Simone Collins: Yeah. I think that’s interesting. What, what also, as I said earlier, stood out to me is that there is this strong undertone of privilege that pervades a lot of this. The, the people described and profiled when I read about this movement for example, o- of, of the alumna of, of this, this club, this this, this Luddite high school club that are now being interviewed later, like they’re all getting humanities degrees at fairly expensive schools, stuff that like implies they don’t actually need real jobs.[00:23:10] Like one is studying Russian literature at Oberlin College. This is not something that someone does if their family is of limited means. What are[00:23:18] Malcolm Collins: they going to do with their life?[00:23:20] Simone Collins: Like what- I don’t know, because they don’t use the internet. Actually, so the, the one who’s getting- Work at a[00:23:25] Malcolm Collins: f*****g bookstore?[00:23:26] Simone Collins: The one, no, the one who’s studying at Oberlin College actually is working for Light Phone, which as it happens, is one of the many companies that is capitalizing on the interest of this, this perf- What,[00:23:40] Malcolm Collins: what, what is... Oh, oh, Light Phone. Oh yeah, where it’s like a lighter... Yeah, but that’s not a terrible idea if you have like addiction problems.[00:23:46] Simone Collins: Yeah. It, it’s a minimalist device. It costs between $300 and $700, and there’s this whole collection of devices for people who want to develop more focus who are at like varying degrees of modern Luddite, I [00:24:00] guess you could say. So there’s also the Mudita Kompakt, K-O-M-P-A-K-T. That’s $399. It’s this e-ink screen device that, that has online...[00:24:11] It’s basically like a smartphone, but without any color. It has offline maps and basic apps. It’s, it’s a little bit more flexible than the Light Phone, and it, it I think it also costs... No, it’s three- $399. So it’s, it’s like kind of mid-range phone-wise. Mudita, by the way, really odd name. Mudita weirdly is, was the name of, When my, when one of my family members was a member of a cult, her name was Mudita in the cult which is interesting.[00:24:43] Anyway then there’s also the Minimal Phone, which is $449. It has an E Ink touch screen, touch, touch screen, touch screen. And it, it also has just a few Android apps. Then there’s the Punkt MP02, 02, which is almost $300, that is just a very minimal button phone. And then there’s, there’s a bunch of like this whole class of basically typewriter style word processors that are like tactile typewriters with E Ink screens that allow you to sync things that you’re writing, like books or transcripts or s- or plays to some kind of cloud account.[00:25:24] But they’re not connected to the internet, so you can’t start messing around online. But all of them are really expensive. They’re $500 to $1,000. And I, I wanted to just point out how expensive they were because You can just get a Razor flip phone for like 35 to $100 on eBay. I checked. Like, they’re, they’re extremely affordable.[00:25:45] So you can, you could very easily be more offline without buying expensive additional stuff. But I feel like it’s one of those ecosystems where, again, the, the, the point the, the young, the young woman getting this degree in Russian literature is now working during the summer at Light Phone but also, like, kind of not sure about getting an office job.[00:26:05] But like what is she gonna do then? She’s gonna end up marrying some guy working in AI-[00:26:10] Malcolm Collins: Exactly ... for her[00:26:11] Simone Collins: lifestyle. And I, I don’t know. I just feel like this is not gonna end very well. But then also, like, just this other sort of reference made offhand in the article, I’m gonna just quote from it, “Winter Jacobson, who was in town from Colorado to visit Ms.[00:26:23] Butler,” this was another one of the former Luddite Club members, “was sitting next to her. He started a Luddite club in Telluride High School last year. He said it had a dozen members.”[00:26:32] Malcolm Collins: Telluride, these kids are so posh.[00:26:34] Simone Collins: He says, “Colorado is very different from New York,” Mr. Jacobson, 17, said. “There’s not as much to do in Telluride.[00:26:41] People are reliant on their phones as their self-connection to the world.” Sorry, “As their connection to the world. So some of my friends think the club’s a joke. I’m still trying to spread the message, though.” Telluride High School. Tell us a little bit about Telluride, Malcolm.[00:26:55] Malcolm Collins: Telluride is probably, I think, one of the, like, richest communities on earth.[00:27:01] It is a beautiful place, though. I, I think one of the most beautiful places in the United States. Yeah,[00:27:05] Simone Collins: like if, if we could live there, we probably would, except I think the altitude’s hard on your lungs.[00:27:09] Malcolm Collins: I, I couldn’t be able to deal with the altitude. It would, it would cause too many health complications for me, but it’s a, a stunning place.[00:27:16] Simone Collins: Yeah. It has... It, it’s basically like this rich, rich person paradise where, like, you can just walk the streets, and kids just walk through, free through the streets and just wander around these beautiful creeks. There’s literally a gondola system that’s free to ride that connects Telluride with Mountain Village an adjacent small village.[00:27:39] It, it is one of the most idyllic and beautiful and privileged places in the entire world. Every every early September a bunch of celebrities descend upon the town for the Telluride Film Festival, and it’s just full of some of the most privileged, educated people in the entire world. And I think that just goes to show that like the one other city that’s mentioned where there’s a Luddite club, aside from [00:28:00] Brooklyn and, and New York City, you know, y- very, very wealthy place is freaking Telluride.[00:28:05] You know, the, the, the secret- like the Brigadoon of rich people. It’s, it’s just insane to me. So yeah, I, I just wanted to point that out. That and, like, all these sort of expensive devices that people are buying when I think what you should really think about is sort of contrast the way that, like, these people are so proudly going offline or like trying to deal with their internet addictions with how Mennonites do it.[00:28:30] And i- it’s not like there isn’t some precedent that modern people who are concerned about tech use can turn to because Mennonites have been dealing with this for a very long time. And according to mennonet.com, which is a thing, and it’s delightful, and it’s, has very, like, Craigslist styling but it is a website for Mennonite things.[00:28:52] Within Mennonite con- conservative circles and plain circles, you’ll see that the, the tools are just stuff that you would install on an Android phone. There are accountability apps. One is called Covenant Eyes, which is something that’s also used by evangelical communities, and also Cloud Veil.[00:29:11] They log activity or... and also are capable of filtering content. And they’ll send reports on accountability to, to a partner or a family administrator. So you had told me at one point you’d seen, like, Mennonites,[00:29:23] Malcolm Collins: Yeah,[00:29:23] Simone Collins: I,[00:29:23] Malcolm Collins: I quite like this technology. Yeah. I think it’s something that more people should use if you struggle with addictions to stuff online.[00:29:30] Simone Collins: Yeah, like your brother will be like, “Hey dude, I saw that you were on Facebook.” Like, that y- you’ll get that social shame from it. There’s also something called the Security Appliance, which is a content filtering solution developed for and by the Plain community which is used at the network level in some fellowships to restrict categories of sites and manage what devices- Mm-hmm[00:29:50] can access. So it’s, I think, similar to the kinds of controls that, say, a high school’s tech network will use in terms of allowing, like, what the laptops and phones on that system can use. And then there are other web filters like OpenDNS FamilyShield, and then just other ones that are out there that can be configured at home or on business Wi-Fi to block entire categories of content.[00:30:13] So if you don’t like Mark Zuckerberg ‘cause he’s watching your life, then you can just block Fa- like, there are, are very easy offline ways without buying- Mm ... some expensive phone when you could just get an Android phone for $100 or y- if you still want a smartphone, for example, that allow you to do this.[00:30:31] And then you can also just, ‘cause I just did this with an, an Android device that I’m sort of repurposing for, for our oldest son you can just set necessary apps on an Android phone or use something like Google Family Link, which I know is annoying you, but I’m still setting up the settings to, to set downtime schedules where, like, during these hours of the day you can’t use the phone, you can’t use the phone for more than two hours.[00:30:54] Like, it just literally shuts off, and then the person who is the admin on the Google Family Link can give you more time if they think you should have it, but it, they can cut you off like a bartender. So th- these are all super, like, you don’t need a special device for it, but this community feels like it performatively needs to.[00:31:12] But what I think is more meaningful is that- In Mennonite communities, there are just social norms around not taking out your phone in certain places. Like, a Mennonite would never go to church and pull out a phone because they know that they would be, like, socially ostracized for it. And I think just having those social norms is, is, is way more helpful than even using some kind of tech, if you know that you’re gonna be shamed.[00:31:35] And that is something at least that did really show up in the summer of Ludd in New York. It’s still, probably still showing up at these events, is that when people take out their phones, people see that they’re doing so with great shame, that the phones are, like, held really low. Like, you know when someone shamefully takes out a phone to, like, check something and they do that thing where, like- Yeah, yeah, yeah[00:31:50] they, they hold it at, like, hip level and they think that you can’t see. It’s like s- it’s the stupidest thing. It’s like when our kids play hide and seek and they’re, like, hiding under a table making eye contact but they assume that you can’t see [00:32:00] them. It’s like that.[00:32:01] Malcolm Collins: I love the, the, them wanting to play hide and seek and being the worst hiders in the world.[00:32:07] Simone Collins: It’s ... I know, man. Like, I think I need to-[00:32:09] Malcolm Collins: And they’re so excited to do it, too.[00:32:11] Simone Collins: Oh, yeah. Well, and then they’re like, when they find a good hiding spot and then you, you find them in it, they’re so delighted that they immediately wanna play another round, but then they just run directly to that same hiding spot.[00:32:22] Like, not clear on the concept, guys. Like, at what age do they figure this out? At any rate, Maybe[00:32:28] Malcolm Collins: our kids are just stupid.[00:32:29] Simone Collins: No, our kids are beautiful and wonderful, and I love them so much.[00:32:34] Malcolm Collins: I love you so much, Simone.[00:32:35] Simone Collins: I love you, too. The original Luddite movement, though, I wanna point out, is, like, so different from this.[00:32:41] Because one, these are working-class artisans who are deeply concerned about their jobs just being completely obliterated. It, it lasted very sh- it was very short, though. It, it went from 1811 to 1816. One of the reasons it was so short is that the stuff they did was super violent and illegal and harmful and damaging and even a guy was killed at one point.[00:33:04] So i- in addition to raiding factories and breaking machines, starting in Nottingham in 1811 they, they, they ended up breaking over 1,000 machines. I mean, people lost fortunes in, in the damage done. I mean, some- some equivalent of this would have to be, like, I don’t know, if, if they, like, broke into Apple stores and just took a baseball bat to every device they could get their hands on, even in, like, the backroom inventory.[00:33:29] But I guess Apple stores are kind of designed to make that impossible. It seems like they’ve anticipated this. We’ve learned. But they also ultimately killed this man, William Hors- Horsefall. They, they attacked mills as well. They, this, I think, started with the Rawfolds Mill in 1812. And so obviously- There were immediate legal and military repercussions.[00:33:52] So this, this is the kind of movement that had to be repressed. So in a sense, the, the modern Luddite movement is at least more sustainable in that most of the even anti-data center protests are just protests. There hasn’t been at least very successful sabotage of data centers, which is nice. And at least they’re using mostly legal channels, like both in the EU and other parts of the world, plus in the US, they’re, they’re trying to move more through like zoning councils and be NIMBY about it instead of like, “I’m going to break all of the things.”[00:34:23] But there are some similarities in that like there, there were many threatening letters sent to people who are trying to buy and implement the use of these machines. A- but these are, by the way, it was, it was mostly about textiles just in case people are not clear on this. Like[00:34:40] Malcolm Collins: Which was a predominantly female industry at the time, if I understand correctly.[00:34:43] Like[00:34:43] Simone Collins: it basically No, I don’t think... No, this, this was predominantly men. I I think exclusively men. But yeah, no, it, it, it, it arose among skilled English textile workers who were like framework knitters and, and st- stockinger in North Hampshire, and croppers and shearers in Yorkshire and weavers in Lancashire.[00:35:04] So they, they were primarily men, and when they organized, they would organize like kind of semi militias. Like, they would even sometimes do military style drills as their preparations. But one of the other big things was they would send threatening letters signed by General Ludd or by this mythi- likely mythical, at least, Ned Ludd.[00:35:26] That’s why they were called Luddites. Which is kind of similar to the, the, the 13 gunshots fired outside that one council member’s house and then leaving the note of, like, no data centers outside his, his, his door. But that’s really the most, the... as close as they get. But the Luddite movement was so small that even at its peak there were maybe 7 to 8,000 sympathizers, and the, in terms of, like, the raids of factories- So[00:35:57] Malcolm Collins: the Luddite movement was smaller than the [00:36:00] Basecamp fandom?[00:36:00] Simone Collins: Yes.[00:36:00] Malcolm Collins: Like- Yeah ... that’s kind of crazy.[00:36:03] Simone Collins: Yes, it is, it is genuinely crazy. And yet it’s gone down in- And, and no, we even mean, like, yeah, like- In books ... arguably paid fandom. Whi- which is, like, y- extra committed people who are actually willing to put money down. It, it, it’s, it’s rather, it’s rather insane. And the raids never really got bigger than approximately 100 men.[00:36:20] So this is not... I, I would say the anti data center movement is bigger than the entire Luddite movement, which makes sense because it isn’t just textile workers whose livelihood is being threatened by AI, it’s, like, any-[00:36:34] Malcolm Collins: It’s humanity ... humanity job,[00:36:36] Simone Collins: email job or what, what do they call them? Yeah, email job employee or, like, white collar worker at this point who’s being threatened by them.[00:36:44] I, and plus these were working class artisans, whereas the primary participants of the Luddite movements appear to be privileged young people and then kind of retired boomers. And then just, like, some families that are like, “Well, I live in Brooklyn and we’re looking for something we can take our kids to, so this looks fun.[00:37:03] There’s a play about the Luddite movement, and there’s a puppet frog. Oh, our kids will love that.” You know, like, they’re, I think they’re just kind of, they’re there because they, they kind of like the aesthetics of the movement and, you know, they probably are anti-screen parents ‘cause they live in Brooklyn, and they’re just going because it’s there, right?[00:37:18] So I, I wouldn’t say that this is a movement to, this isn’t some kind of domestic terror movement in the same way the original Luddite movement is. I think it’s kind of odd that they’re choosing the word Luddite because the original Luddite movement was very much about, like, destroying career threatening tech, whereas here they’re more like, “Well, I just don’t really want, you know, Mark Zuckerberg to fly over to Nigeria.”[00:37:40] Well, I mean, and Luddite[00:37:41] Malcolm Collins: also took on a vernacular term over the years that-[00:37:44] Simone Collins: It did. It did. But I don’t know. I, and I also think that, like, it, it’s, it’s very interesting. I feel like it, it is a, a market correction of sorts that’s, that’s, it’s worth listening to in the sense that A lot of people are trying to go back to, like, kind of a early 2000s era internet use, which I could see as being relatively healthy, like, worth pursuing.[00:38:09] Because I think that worked pretty well for us. It, it’s working really well for our kids, who I think are having that kind of relationship with tech and the internet. And I think that’s kind of maybe the sweet spot for humans, and it, I think it’s important to note if that’s where people are converging But what do you think?[00:38:29] Malcolm Collins: Yeah.[00:38:31] Simone Collins: Like video game consoles- ... but not really good ones. No VR. No feeds. I think no feeds is kind of a good policy.[00:38:37] Malcolm Collins: No, just don’t be wasteful. Just don’t be wasteful. Mm-hmm. Like, come on. Th- th- that’s what I think with this stuff. Really? Like with our kids, I’m getting them the little video game ROM console and stuff like that.[00:38:48] Simone Collins: I just- No, that’s my point though. That’s what we grew up with.[00:38:51] Malcolm Collins: Y- no, but it’s more than we grew up with. It’s everything. I think it’s operating in an anti-big tech environment is a better way to do this than an anti-tech environment. And that’s functionally what they’re trying to achieve. They just want intelligent-[00:39:07] Simone Collins: Yeah, like how to make your own website, how to host your own things.[00:39:10] No, no, no, no, no, no. I was so surprised to not hear Orbit- That’s not what I mean ... in all of this.[00:39:13] Malcolm Collins: So look at the video game system I’m gonna be giving Octavian, right? Like-[00:39:17] Simone Collins: Yeah ...[00:39:17] Malcolm Collins: this is not from Nintendo. This is not from Xbox. This is made by hobbyists who wanted to make up a system that could play any ROM, right, from any of the old systems.[00:39:28] And so he can play through any of the old games on a local device. Look at the RFab. It’s coming down the RFab pipeline. You guys will have this soon. I am so excited to be working on this. But an RFab hardware we’re gonna have soon which will allow you to give to your kids a little talking companion that keeps the conversation focused on educational topics and award points and- You can also[00:39:51] Simone Collins: see the world because we found that our kid when he walks around with the, that rabbit AI device, that the camera is really crucial.[00:39:58] He wants to be able to [00:40:00] show his AI companions what he’s looking at and learn about it. Like, “Is this poison ivy,” or, “What do you think of this,” or, “What is[00:40:08] Malcolm Collins: this?” Yeah. Which is really cool. Which is really cool. I cannot wait to have RFab hardware. Yeah. But with all of the things in our life, you can choose to just not go with the big tech, and you’re generally gonna have better outcomes especially- At this point, yeah[00:40:23] as big companies get worse at things. Like right now while we’ve been having this talk, I have been spec-ing out what it’s gonna take for me to, to clone Descript’s features and just make it better and cheaper.[00:40:33] That’s[00:40:33] awesome. Because, like why? Why go and work with Descript when I can build this myself, and frankly, they charge way more than they should?[00:40:41] Simone Collins: You should do-[00:40:42] No, I, I actually really like StreamYard, but maybe StreamYard next ...[00:40:46] Malcolm Collins: Stre- you want me to do video hosting cloning? I can do video hosting. I can do that easily. Do you want me to, you want me to knock out StreamYard?[00:40:54] Simone Collins: We won’t be able to afford it much longer, so yeah. H-[00:40:57] Malcolm Collins: How much, how much are they charging us now?[00:40:59] Simone Collins: Well, remember when we, we were able to get grandfathered in on their non-business plan for just a little bit longer because of our nonprofit, but they wanted to charge, I think, like 500 a month or something. Like, some insane amount that we were like, “Oh my God, we just can’t.” So.[00:41:13] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I can, I can d- do this.[00:41:15] Simone Collins: Anyway, I’m excited. Think about it. But yeah, anyway, I think this is fine. I think that it’s bougie, but that’s fine. I just I think that the most reasonable approach to the future is kind of solar punk. We... Malcolm and I were talking about it earlier that while the original solar punk movement sort of came from a very progressive, coded, environmentalist coded space, a lot of the solar punk environments and families that we know are more on the sort of, like, conservative, like, big family side of the spectrum, where, you know, they may live on some kind of homestead, but they’re using AI to work out everything from medical solutions to complex health issues to how to develop strong, like a strong permaculture system for their unique microclimate.[00:42:05] And it’s... I think it’s really hard to do all these things without AI because a lot of us are coming into this without tacit knowledge that has been passed down from generation to generation. I- in other words, I feel like we can’t actually return to the land, return to nature, and return to old ways, like more sustainable offline ways, without AI because we have collectively as a society forgotten how to do most of these things.[00:42:30] We’ve forgotten how to tie knots and go fishing and do all these other things, and the only reason that we’re able to learn these things again is by leveraging AI and, and asking for, for that, that help. AI is playing the role that our grandparents used to play in teaching us how to do things the way that things used to be done.[00:42:48] So I would just warn people who, like, wanna go super offline that it’s gonna be hard to learn the old ways, to learn how to do things without the internet if you don’t leverage-[00:42:59] Malcolm Collins: I love they’re like, “The old ways, when you used to make a website for yourself.”[00:43:04] Simone Collins: That’s what’s, again, what’s so funny about it is it’s like, oh, this isn’t L- a Luddite movement.[00:43:08] This is a, like, go back to the early noughties internet. Anyway, though,[00:43:12] Malcolm Collins: I love[00:43:12] Simone Collins: you very much, Malcolm. Thank[00:43:13] Malcolm Collins: you[00:43:14] Simone Collins: for cheering me up. I by the way, I got the, the blood work back and I am just, the, it just completely failed. I have, I have no HCG. Just completely failed?[00:43:24] Malcolm Collins: Not[00:43:24] Simone Collins: pregnant at[00:43:24] Malcolm Collins: all?[00:43:25] Simone Collins: It... I’m not pregnant at all.[00:43:26] We lost, we lost our baby, and I’m so sad, and I really appreciate that you’ve been[00:43:32] Malcolm Collins: That’s really sad, but this happens, But[00:43:33] Simone Collins: you’ve cheered me up a lot, and I really appreciate it ...[00:43:35] Malcolm Collins: and we’re gonna keep trying. And you will get pregnant.[00:43:40] Simone Collins: Yeah. Thanks, Malcolm. All right. I love you. Bye.[00:43:44] Malcolm Collins: S- s- Simone, statistically, this should’ve been happening way more than it’s been happening.[00:43:47] Simone Collins: No, I, I know that. I know that. No, I’m, I’m not, I’m not gonna dwell on it. I’ll, I’ll yeah. Bye.[00:43:53] Malcolm Collins: Bye.[00:43:53] Simone Collins: did you find the book you were looking for?[00:43:55] Malcolm Collins: I did find it, and now it’s included with the rest of the documents, and we’ll be able to get [00:44:00] it digitized. And I didn’t just find that, but included with it was a write-up of the Collins family history, which I otherwise would have not had included.[00:44:08] Simone Collins: Dude, okay. That’s[00:44:10] Malcolm Collins: very awesome.[00:44:10] The one thing I’d really like to find for the documentary team is the first book I wrote in high school[00:44:20] I don’t[00:44:21] Simone Collins: think I’ve ever seen this. What is it?[00:44:26] Malcolm Collins: It’s called Why Do Anything? I wonder if it’s in my Google Drive. Oh,[00:44:28] Simone Collins: wait, wait, wait. That’s in Google Drive. I, I know that. I know that. Hold on. It is... At least I have a copy of it. Yeah. I, I, I made a copy of it in 2013.[00:44:39] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, like why- “[00:44:40] Simone Collins: Why do anything?” Like, literally. It’s a good title. It’s a,[00:44:44] Malcolm Collins: it’s a very awesome title. Yeah. It is essential to know what you should be working for as an ultimate goal in life.[00:44:49] Without meaning, life is meaningless. When we think of what we want out of life, we normally jump directly to shallow motivations ones derived from core motivations such as a, a loving family or a nice house. The problem with this is that we do not ask ourselves why it is that we want these things in life. If you were to ask yourself why it is that you want such things, you would in turn answer with one of four core values. Oh.[00:45:18] This is great. I love that I wrote this all the way back then. This is a[00:45:21] Simone Collins: That is delightful[00:45:23] Malcolm Collins: I remember one day when I was 15, I wondered why I was trying so hard in school. I always had assumed I did it in order to get into a good high school, which would then get me into a good college, and from there I would get a good job.[00:45:33] At that point, I would be successful, make a sufficient amount of money, and I would be able to do whatever I pleased. Ultimately, all of the effort I put in was going to make me happy, and if I simply economized and constantly worked hard, I would recap the benefits later, coming out ahead as far as happiness goes in my life.[00:45:50] It was then that I asked myself why I should strive for happiness, and I realized that I didn’t know. I was aware that pleasure centers in my brain were activated when I was happy, and that this rewarded me for doing things and achieving certain things, but why should I care? Why should I do anything?[00:46:05] Should I work hard to become successful, or instead drift through life finding happiness where I could if overall I would have more happiness doing that? Should I help other people or help myself? Without knowing what motivation should be, everything I put my efforts to would be completely pointless.[00:46:21] I decided from that point on my motivation in life would be to find a motivation. Hmm. And then I, I go through but yeah, this is... I, I would hope our kids do something like this at 15. I think this is something an exercise. And you can see The Pragmatist Guide to Life is basically just a longer rehashed version of this.[00:46:36] Simone Collins: Basically, yeah.[00:46:38] Malcolm Collins: That’s freaking[00:46:39] Simone Collins: crazy. Isn’t that wild? That is really crazy. Well, memory lane today. Kind of fun.[00:46:45] Malcolm Collins: Thank you for storing that, Simone. You’re so diligent.[00:46:48] Simone Collins: Aw. Thanks.[00:46:50] Speaker: Oh, that’s good, right? Yeah. Looks a lot like me. Hey, Tex, do you think you look like Octavian now? He can’t see himself. Well, he’s smiling, and you smile a lot. Yeah, and I like it. I like his smile when he looks at me. He’s, like, laughing. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah, he... You make him laugh. Hey, it’s close to 3:00. It’s kind of, it’s this close to 3:00.[00:47:27] Speaker 2: Yeah. It’s this close to 3:00. Super close, huh? Yeah, I’m actually s- I got right in the lyrics here I’ll play with Tex because I really wanna... I’ll play with Tex to wait for Eric. Okay. Because I know you really want him to smile. I do. Thanks, Audrey. Yeah, I’ll play with him, makes him smile. Perfect. Aw, look.[00:47:48] Speaker: Look, Tex. There’s a carrot. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

A Based Camp listener encouraged us to read Performative Bafflement’s post Against “more marriage” as a solution to the fertility crisis and while we came in with our mockery sneers at the ready, we came away radicalized. Is this the beginning of our Dark Pronatalist era? Oh no…Episode Transcript[00:00:00] Simone Collins: This big Ponzi scheme we like to call the American economy isn’t just going to make it without a bunch of kids cranked out en masse to keep the wheels spinning, right?[00:00:08] Well, friends, I’ve got news for you here too. You do not approach the net neutral in taxes paid versus consumed unless you are in the top 10% of income for 40 plus years. Oh. Interesting argument here. So only the rich people have to get married[00:00:23] Malcolm Collins: Okay, I buy this.[00:00:25] Yeah, let’s get rid of- Sterilize all- ... the average person. Ster- and Leaflet has said this as well, that we should offer money- Yes ... for people to sterilize themselves. Yeah. Let’s move to le- what do we call this? Twist. Like, dark pronatalism?[00:00:36] Simone Collins: Twist.[00:00:37] Elitist pronatalism. We’ve always been accused of elitism.[00:00:40] You know, oh, the Collinses, they want people to have kids, but only the right people. And they want everyone to think that we’re like white people or like, Christian people, but we’re like, no, just like competent, happy people. Well, wow. I mean, yeah, I, I like that it’s always really fun when something fundamentally changes our view of something,[00:00:58] Speaker 3: So for context, today’s episode is actually one that I had not planned on releasing to the general public. We had planned on doing this as a paid private episode. and throughout most of it, what you will see is us being rather snarky and dismissive of the ideas being presented because we’re like, “Well, what’s the alternative?[00:01:17] What’s the alternative? What’s the alternative?” And at the end of it, I was convinced, I think that this person makes a pretty good argument. And so this has been a major sea change in how I see reality, , which is to say it could be actively harmful and selfish to fight for the vast majority of people to get married and have kids.[00:01:40] ,[00:01:40] Speaker 4: Because the vast majority of people make bad partners, they make bad parents, they make bad children, and they would live a worse life if they were married and had kids[00:01:54] Speaker 3: Whereas the virtuous thing is to just replace them[00:01:58] But see if it convinces you as well[00:02:01] Would you like to know more?[00:02:02] Simone Collins: Hello, Malcolm. I’m excited to be speaking with you today because today we’re doing a listener request. So those are always really exciting. We have a lot of people with excellent taste. And I- Do we?[00:02:15] Malcolm Collins: Do we? Yeah. Yeah, we do.[00:02:17] Simone Collins: Yeah, we do. Yeah.[00:02:17] Malcolm Collins: I actually quite like our fans. They, they’re, I, I like you guys because you typically are living productive lives and doing interesting stuff, which is neat.[00:02:24] Yeah,[00:02:25] Simone Collins: like s- smart people who always give us new ideas and push[00:02:28] Malcolm Collins: us further. And the number of you who have found partners and started making kids since we started this podcast is astonishing.[00:02:34] Simone Collins: It makes us really happy. Yeah. So if you’re still looking, don’t give up. There’s a lot of hope, and you could be next.[00:02:40] So-[00:02:40] Malcolm Collins: And I, I promise you guys, it gets better as they get a bit older.[00:02:44] Simone Collins: Oh, yeah, ‘cause... Yeah, Malcolm has been reading my old diaries from early in our pre-married and newlywed days, and apparently it sucks. Wait, that’s gonna dissuade people.[00:02:55] Malcolm Collins: Not the women- Ignore ... the babies.[00:02:57] Simone Collins: Oh, the babies. Okay.[00:02:58] Malcolm Collins: But the women also get better.[00:02:59] Yeah, we got in fights all the time in the early days.[00:03:02] Simone Collins: Not fights. We disagreed about things strategically, but sure, fights. What we had been s- encouraged to read is a, a Substack post by an excellence name- excellently named Substack, Performative Bafflement. I’ve always loved the name of this Substack.[00:03:17] Haven’t read everything in it. Haven’t read this. The title of this particular article that we’re gonna read is Against More Marriage as a Solution to the Fertility Crisis: Let’s Create the Torment Nexus to Pump Out a Few Incremental Taxpayers. All right, let’s go into it. It has 66 likes, 48 comments, and 15 restacks, so did pretty well.[00:03:37] They write, “Okay, so we all know about the fertility crisis, right? All the developed countries are going extinct. Many consider this bad or worrisome idea, et cetera. Said crisis is happening for hundreds of interlocking reasons, but the big KPI people like to point to here seems to be marriage. /Marriage directly tracks fertility, and the decline in relationship formation and marriage drives [00:04:00] most of the fertility gap since 2000.”[00:04:02] He inserts graphs showing the clear... what looks to be causation. Okay, okay. It is correlation, but looks like it. “One of the main solutions,” he writes, “to the fertility crisis that most folks seem to like is pro-marriage incentives and initiatives. I am here to argue against this. These people are basically advocating for creating the torment nexus for megafolks of people,” megafolks, “to pump out a few incremental taxpayers.[00:04:29] My position: Let’s not create a torment nexus, please and thank you. Aren’t I being totally histrionic and ridiculous here?” What? Let’s see. Okay, I wanna see where they’re[00:04:36] Malcolm Collins: going with this. I have no idea. I have no idea where they[00:04:38] Simone Collins: could be going. Yeah, my guess is they’re just gonna be like, “I don’t know, let the system break.[00:04:41] I don’t wanna grind for some boomers to have more Social Security.”[00:04:47] Malcolm Collins: Is this a leftists or a right? I don’t even know. I, I, they[00:04:49] Simone Collins: could be like a big toe It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. I don’t care because Performative Bafflement is a great Substack name, and I’m not gonna color your view of this person.[00:04:57] Don’t click on their Substack. Be good.[00:04:58] Speaker: So I decided to check and they are, , center right, , and of the based variety. They talk a lot about genetics, stuff like that, , working out, that sort of stuff, but not, you know, as, probably as far as us, , and male. , So at least I didn’t have my mind changed by a lefty woman as I thought[00:05:17] Simone Collins: Okay, let’s go into the argument. Sexual, sorry, sexual. Where is my mind today? Secular marriage trends. First, they’re absolutely right that marriage is declining. It has been declining every single generation since the ‘40s, when we hit a local peak of 90% marriage rates, which have, which drove the baby boom.[00:05:37] 90%. I didn’t know that, actually. Can you imagine living in a society where nine out of 10 people were married?[00:05:44] Malcolm Collins: No[00:05:45] Simone Collins: It’s crazy. Okay, I continue. Literally every single generation on generation since then, each cohort of women has looked out at the world, said, “Well, nope,” and opted out of marriage at higher rates than the one before.[00:05:59] And they show a graph of women in the US by decade of birth who are getting married, and it, it ain’t looking, it ain’t looking good. The, it’s, it’s, it looks like a rainbow that’s dying. And I continue, and just as a note, I am framing this as primarily women’s choice because one, women are traditionally proposed to and say yes or no.[00:06:22] Two, historically women are the sex that wants and pushes for marriage while in a relationship more often. Three, women getting educated and having jobs and careers of their own is a big part of the fertility crisis in the sense those things all reduce fertility when first introduced to a society. And indirect-[00:06:41] Malcolm Collins: Wait, that doesn’t sound right.[00:06:41] Do women push for marriage more than men? I don’t think so.[00:06:44] Simone Collins: So these days definitely men are pushing more for marriage, so she’s, I mean, she’s right that women are, are driving the decline in marriage. You can see it in the polling. We’ve done plenty of episodes that cite this polling. So I, that is true.[00:06:56] When you look at at least historical tropes, ‘cause we didn’t live in this time. I[00:06:59] Malcolm Collins: mean- Yeah, I know historical tropes, but I think the reality is, and, and potentially even into history, that’s been the men, I mean, in a lot of the stories that, you know, I remember from my childhood, the romance stories, it’s the man pushing for marriage.[00:07:11] It’s the- No ... I’ll go to Ipswich for you. It’s the- Mm ... you know, like-[00:07:16] Simone Collins: That’s, those are romances. That’s not reality. Reality is men want to maintain as much optionality as, look, sexually, like from a sexual strategy perspective- Not men who want to have[00:07:25] Malcolm Collins: babies. I pushed you to get married.[00:07:29] Simone Collins: Right. Your mu- your game of musical chairs was rapidly ending.[00:07:33] You, you felt like you’re, I guess m- m-[00:07:37] Malcolm Collins: And I was like 24 at the time when I felt like I was waiting too long. I[00:07:38] Simone Collins: know, but you felt like an old maid or whatever the male equivalent of that is. You, you’re a very unusual case. The, the male strategy has almost always been, look, maintain maximum optionality, string women along, don’t actually commit because then you can move on to another woman.[00:07:52] And even when m- women now in our modern society after no-fault divorce were able to just divorce women when they wanted to and then move [00:08:00] on. Like the, the, there’s a lack of commitment. Although these days I know women initiate the majority of divorces. But no, I, I, I think, I think that checks out. I agree.[00:08:08] I think that most women wanted marriage more than men historically, and often what was ha- what happened even when, like, a woman gets pregnant It’s the shotgun wedding, not because the woman is being held at gunpoint, it’s because the young man is being held at gunpoint. Women can’t escape the reality of having, being pregnant, you know, i- if, if they live in a society or in a family that does not approve of abortion or have a culture that doesn’t approve of it.[00:08:33] Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm.[00:08:34] Simone Collins: Anyway, yes, I agree with, I w- I agree with performative bafflement. So la, la, la. Four, women being able to have jobs and lives of their own gives them more o- options and is what enables them to opt out of marriage at ever-increasing rates. I am here to argue that this gigantic reduction in marriage rates is an unambiguously good thing, and that the great majority of these ladies are genuinely making smart decisions.[00:08:58] Marriage is a bad idea in the great majority of cases. Broadly, people aren’t compatible because people suck. I mean, come on, Malcolm, you can’t disagree with that. When approximately 90% of women-[00:09:09] Malcolm Collins: Other people suck? Right, but the- If you can find a person who[00:09:12] Simone Collins: sucks in the way that you suck- You’re such an outlier, Malcolm.[00:09:14] Malcolm Collins: There are people who think, progressives think I suck. You know, like...[00:09:18] Simone Collins: Right, and b- b- e- yeah, but we’re very unusual in... We, we both also s- cast a wide net and, and worked... W- I was very targeted in my search. You cast a very wide net and were also very, very choosy and worked extremely hard to find a partner.[00:09:39] Most people don’t work that hard but I think are less choosy, so it, you know, it all washes out. But I, I was so committed to living alone, not because I wasn’t a hopeless romantic, I actually kind of was, but because I couldn’t imagine someone being compatible with me being how weird I am. Yeah,[00:09:55] Malcolm Collins: but[00:09:55] Simone Collins: males-[00:09:55] Malcolm Collins: And look, you had deliberately-[00:09:56] disproportionately push for marriage, b- by a dramatic margin.[00:09:59] Simone Collins: You just checked on AI?[00:10:01] Malcolm Collins: Yeah.[00:10:01] Simone Collins: During what time period?[00:10:05] Malcolm Collins: 2023 data, so not even that recent.[00:10:07] Simone Collins: No, we’re, we’re talking about, like, the 1950s. Obviously now, I said obviously now, men are the ones[00:10:13] Malcolm Collins: pushing the narrative. Well, in the 1950s I believe that men also pushed for it.[00:10:15] I think that, that we are shown a narrative in the media that’s not real or accurate[00:10:22] Simone Collins: Hmm, I don’t know. Chime in in the comments and let us know what you think. Who’s right, Malcolm or Simone? But I will continue. Broadly, people are compatible, blah, blah, blah, they suck. How do we know this? By just looking at actual outcomes, looking at revealed preferences and how people actually end up after marriage.[00:10:39] Obviously, the ever-decreasing marriage rate for each generation of women above, she’s referring to the graph, the sad rainbow, that is driven by something. What could that something be? I’m here to- By the way,[00:10:50] Malcolm Collins: I’m guessing this person’s a leftist because they don’t seem interested in what’s actually true, but just sort of[00:10:54] Simone Collins: what, what’s likely And I’m, I’m assuming that they’re a woman.[00:10:56] I’m here to argue, because these are very common arguments so far that I hear from fem- the female YouTubers I watch, ‘cause I like girly things. I’m here to argue that it’s a genuine reaction to actual marriage quality and outcomes, the empirical outcomes. Even today, when many fewer couples get married and marriage is significantly more selected, divorce base rates are approximately 42% for first marriages, and about half of the remaining marriages are net miserable for at least one party.[00:11:26] That’s roughly two-thirds failure misery rate. She, she doesn’t, I’m assuming she. Performative bafflement doesn’t cite this- That’s because[00:11:33] Malcolm Collins: the people don’t try. They don’t try to get into a good marriage, and they don’t try once they’re married. Yeah,[00:11:36] Simone Collins: and, and look, they’d be miserable by themselves too. I,[00:11:40] Malcolm Collins: I- Yeah, I don’t, I do not know any miserably married people.[00:11:44] Any[00:11:45] Simone Collins: from our generation. Yeah. I mean, I don’t, people like to hide it, I guess. But yeah, at least people- I, I would know ... in the boyscan community are really solid. Anyway think about think how net miserable those 90% of marriages were that were not selected at all and could not get [00:12:00] divorced back in the ‘50s.[00:12:01] Moreover, of the marriages that stayed together, all they predominantly do is make people fat and sexless and miserable. Married weight gain is a strong effect seen in practically every country in the world, even after controlling for genes and personalities. For example, identical twins, one of whom marries and the other does not, the married one typically gains significant weight.[00:12:21] Both you and I weigh less than we did when we got married, which is interesting. The Termik et al 2024 meta-analysis surveys approximately 200,000 couples and approximately 100,000 matched singles across 18 countries, and surfaces a very strong effect size of marriages on obesity. A 1.7 odds ratio, up to 2.5 odds ratio in economic downturns.[00:12:47] Aw. People eat their feelings. And, and the trend reverses. On divorce, both men and women lose weight. On sexless- sexlessness, as far as I can tell, a lot of sources consider fewer than one times a month to be basically a sexless marriage. In GSS, this ranges from 5 to 20% of all marriages that have lasted at least five years, depending on how happy they are and how long they’ve been going.[00:13:11] And obviously there’s giant survivor effect there with the approximately half of them that have been divorced were more likely to be sexless prior to divorce. So fif- five to 20% is the heavy, heavily survivor biased portion of sexless marriages that already have a huge thumb on the scale in terms of upping the amount of sex.[00:13:32] This is to say that I personally think some much larger portion of marriages attain sexlessness. It’s just that the majority of those end up divorced, leaving a relatively more modest five to[00:13:40] Malcolm Collins: 20% remainder. So her thing is it’s a good thing that it’s not happening because most people are failures Okay.[00:13:47] Simone Collins: Yeah. Okay, yeah, that’s, I think that’s broadly what, what is being argued here.[00:13:50] Malcolm Collins: And she’s like, “And you should...” I, I mean, I guess, like, the type of person who’s not finding a partner today is the type of person who would’ve been a bad partner in the past.[00:13:57] Simone Collins: Well, Performative Bafflement proceeds to present a flowchart showing total marriages, and then they split off 42% divorce, and then of the active marriage pool, we have 20-year successes.[00:14:09] That’s 18% of all relationships. We’re almost coming up on 11, Malcolm, so we’re getting there. And then net miserable and/or dead bedroom, 40% of all relationships. And there’s some weird, like, extra thing in it. Eh, who cares? Whatever. Over only 20 years, only approximately 18% of marriages are actually still happy and sexually active.[00:14:32] All the rest are divorced or net miserable/dead bedroom, and I don’t think if you’re PMC, you’re immune. So I’ve just ignored the obesity effects on this chart because that’s apparently almost every American’s fate, and nobody cares about this. At least not enough to do anything about it. This view is a simplification.[00:14:48] Obviously, a lot of the divorces were dead bedrooms or miserable before divorce, and this caused the divorce, and obviously people trickle into the net miserable column at increasing rates over time. But this is genuinely what all the data tells us over 20 years, and there’s a good reason to think that GSS is optimistic on both the dead bedroom and the happy marriage front.[00:15:06] So every woman opting out of mes- marriage at a higher, in higher rates, super smart. Definitely the right move. If you track empirical outcomes, that’s definitely the best, the w- the... Wait a second. But she’s not looking at the counterfactual. She’s not looking at, like, the mental health rates of women who never get married.[00:15:22] Malcolm Collins: Yeah.[00:15:22] Simone Collins: We’re only looking at married couples. And, look, a lot of women who end up divorced get, like, alimony and more financial security because of the divorce. Anyway she continues. I’m just go- we, we’re just assuming Performative Baffle- Bafflement is a woman, not really knowing the background. And as an aside, I think this kind of a, is kind of an amazing demonstration of the wisdom of crowds and invisible hands at work.[00:15:43] Basically, nobody knows these numbers. All anyone can do is look around at the relationships around them and judge their quality and outcomes. It is an exceptionally noisy information channel that’s highly selected and skewed for everyone. And even with all that noise, even with literally zero idea of the statistical ground [00:16:00] truths, women in the aggregate have still arrived at a better, closer to the truth answer in each subsequent decision round over 80 years of cumulative decisions.[00:16:09] That’s amazing. And before everyone here jumps-[00:16:12] Malcolm Collins: Closer to the truth? She’s arguing that no one should get married or reproduce. I think so. Functionally[00:16:17] Simone Collins: speaking. Yeah, I think, yeah. I, I’m getting some anti-natalism in here.[00:16:20] Malcolm Collins: Like, no, it’s, it’s like what’s even the point of fixing this if sometimes marriage is bad?[00:16:25] Right? Like- ... what?[00:16:28] Simone Collins: Well, and sometimes being single is bad, but she’s not talking about that, is she?[00:16:31] Malcolm Collins: And before- I, I’ve never seen two decent people in a bad marriage[00:16:36] Simone Collins: I have. I have. My, my best friend in childhood her, her parents were perfect, and I thought they were the perfect marriage. And The dynamic broke at one point when the wife was given the job opportunity of a lifetime.[00:16:53] They moved across country, and the husband went a long time without working, and it just killed the family’s dynamic ‘cause he no longer felt like the provider. He became the stay-at-home dad, and that, he, his identity wasn’t ready for that. Mm. And then they both ended up with other partners, and they’re happy now.[00:17:08] But, like, there are things that have nothing to do with the two individuals who can be incredibly... These people were, like, smart and good-looking and insanely tall. Like, they were both over six feet. And-[00:17:20] Malcolm Collins: Oh, that doesn’t really make sense to me. So what, he cheated on her? What do you mean they both ended up with other part...[00:17:24] Because presumably it’s gonna be harder for him to get his job back or get another partner after this I think he may have[00:17:29] Simone Collins: cheated. I think he may have cheated on her. Mm ... which, I mean, if she was, like, gone a lot for work, but I don’t know. ‘Cause I don’t, I was a kid, you know, when sh- when sh- my friend was going through all this.[00:17:37] Yeah. And it was, it was rough, you know? But it was, it was amicable, but every- b- and these are, like, two very good people. It just didn’t work out. And that, like, devastated me. I was like, “Oh my God.” Well, I- “Like, if they can’t make it work” ... I, I[00:17:48] Malcolm Collins: don’t know about that. I don’t know. But you continue.[00:17:50] Simone Collins: Anyway, look, I’m just saying, very decent, smart, wonderful people.[00:17:53] I feel like, you know... It, it all worked out in the end, so I’m happy. Anyway she, Performative Bafflement continues, “And before anyone here jumps in and tries to argue that their spouse is Mother Teresa and Sydney Sweeney combined and was recently elected- Mine is ... best and also hottest human being who has ever or will ever exist.[00:18:12] Yes, I’m not talking about you and me, friends. We all know my readers are notable exceptions whose spouse is descended from heaven on gossamer wings, and whose very presence inspires the involuntary outbursts of angelic hymns and paroxysms of joy.” Mine[00:18:27] Malcolm Collins: does, though. You do have a- That’s the problem, Simone[00:18:28] Simone Collins: Mine does, too.[00:18:29] I know. I’m, I’m the one woman who made it. “I’m talking about everyone else,” says Performative Bafflement. “Those who are far less fortunate than we. You know the ones I mean. You see the quality of your friends’ and relatives’ and coworkers’ marriages. As is usually the case with revealed preferences-” No, I, I do see the f-[00:18:46] this can imply huge effect sizes in the background”[00:18:47] Malcolm Collins: I do see the quality, and it’s high quality. I, I do see the quality. In my generation, it’s high quality. Th- this idea that, like, if you look around, all this can tell me is this person is in some sort of circle where everyone’s miserable. And I can only guess it’s all progressives or something.[00:19:01] Simone Collins: I guess, yeah. I mean, I’m, I’m even, like, thinking it, a- as far as I can work it in, in my head, even with people who have m- I would say very imperfect marriages, they’re all just due to imperfections they have as people which they would experience perhaps in a more magnified fashion if they lived independently.[00:19:20] But again, something that I wasn’t considering at this point in the piece because I hadn’t gotten to the end argument, which does help think this for me, is the people we surround ourselves with, e.g., Simone and I surround ourselves with, are exceptional people. I don’t like to talk to people who I do not think are exceptionally competent or exceptionally contributory to the future of humanity.[00:19:42] And it is that type of person, when they end up in a marriage, that they have a good marriage. , It is the type of person who lives the life for whatever, as you’re about to hear, that even when they are otherwise good people, have toxic marriages[00:19:58] Simone Collins: And- Yeah ... the great thing is that a [00:20:00] lot of people’s vices can be moderated-[00:20:04] Malcolm Collins: Well, this is the whole thing. If you were purpose in life is to make humanity better and to contribute to humanity’s continued flourishing in the future, e.g. the next generation, one of the most important things you can do but by far I mean, unless you’re gonna cure cancer or something, which you’re probably not, okay?[00:20:24] Is have a lot of kids and raise them well, right? Especially with this being a crisis that humanity is going through right now. And the fact that you wouldn’t even try to do like one of the... It’s like, you know, you’re on, a spaceship and the, life support’s dying and somebody’s like, “Well, you know, I, I don’t really see the point in trying to fix the life support,” it sometimes shocks you.[00:20:49] It’s like, what are you talking about? It’s the only option. I haven’t heard you present a secondary option here.[00:20:57] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah. We’ll, we’ll continue then. We’ll see. The argument’s only warming up. There’s a lot more. Marriage is a bad idea even from a purely theoretical point of view. On top of the base rates indicating that it’s a bad idea empirically, the whole idea of being able to accurately predict how people are going to evolve or change over 20 to 70 years is silly to begin with, and 20 years is pretty much the minimum you have to consider if you want to have kids with that person.[00:21:23] How much have you changed versus you 20 years ago? Why wouldn’t you expect your spouse to change that much and you to change that much in the next 20 to 70 years? I promise the great majority of everyone in that 82% were in love when they got married and didn’t think they’d get divorced or be miserable.[00:21:39] See, this is why you have to grow together as a couple and not grow apart. Like, that, that’s, this is easy to head off, so I’m just gonna skip to the next section because you just grow together and not apart. That, that, that’s something you can solve. Next section. Good marriages are heaven and bad marriages are hell.[00:21:54] Here I’ll point out that a good relationship is one of the best things on earth and a bad relationship is one of the worst things on earth. Being single is much better than being in a bad relationship. Okay, I’m gonna skip through this section too because we agree.[00:22:06] Malcolm Collins: Well, yeah, but the- That[00:22:08] Simone Collins: means you should just leave the relationship[00:22:09] Malcolm Collins: and get a good one[00:22:09] Being married is much better than being single.[00:22:11] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:22:12] Malcolm Collins: Being in a good marriage is- So[00:22:15] Simone Collins: if you’re in a bad marriage, leave it,[00:22:17] Malcolm Collins: right? Vet the person, learn about the person, grow together, get married young. What... Like, the advice is just so easy to get around.[00:22:27] Simone Collins: Yeah. What this cashes out to, Performative Bafflement writes, as soon as no-fault divorce opened up in the late ‘60s, divorces surged and that was a good thing.[00:22:37] It was millions of soul-crushing relationships suddenly being able to be dissolved.[00:22:40] Malcolm Collins: No, it was millions of relationships becoming soul-crushing because people got other options.[00:22:45] Simone Collins: Mm.[00:22:46] Malcolm Collins: This, there were bad relationships before this, but I can guarantee you they were probably at about a third the rate.[00:22:53] Simone Collins: Maybe, yeah[00:22:55] Malcolm Collins: Im- when you, when you create a norm around leaving a relationship or a motivation to leave a relationship or look for flaws in your partner instead of trying to make it work, this is why arranged marriages have higher love rates or equal love rates, but when you c- count survivorship bias, higher love rates than non-arranged marriages.[00:23:11] Mm.[00:23:11] Simone Collins: So no-fault divorce created the first FOMO or a dangerous new form of FOMO And it caused a bunch of people to become miserable when they could- they did not need to be, or would not have been.[00:23:23] Malcolm Collins: Yeah.[00:23:24] Simone Collins: Okay, next section then we’ll skip to. Is this women getting all uppity? So lots of guys think this is a female selectivity problem.[00:23:31] Indeed, if you do the math, approximately 80% of women are opting out of marriage at the bottom quint- quintile of male SES, and nearly two-thirds are opting out of the medians and below. Marriage is increasingly a luxury good. The top quintile of SES men still have 85 to 90% marriage rates just like all men in the ‘40s.[00:23:51] Oh, that’s interesting. And look again, look at the ground truth. This is just women being actually smart and reacting to actually huge effect sizes. What’s the percent of [00:24:00] marriages that make it and were retroactively actually worth entering? Roughly 20%. Boy, if I were making that bet, I’d sure try to only do it with the top quintile of people.[00:24:12] Uh-oh, Malcolm. You’re top quintile.[00:24:16] Malcolm Collins: I, I am top quintile, I’ll say that.[00:24:18] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:24:19] Malcolm Collins: But, you know, I could just get a, I could just get a, as you’ve said in the past, I should just get a harem. So I’ll get a few more wives and-[00:24:24] Simone Collins: Right. But you know, we know from that, like, one, one bit of research on African what’s the word?[00:24:31] Poly- polygynous marriages, that the more wives a man has, his value gets moderated down. True. Because the wife considering choosing him as a husband has to understand that you now have to divide his assets by the number of wives, plus a little bit more of, of a discount because there’s the uncertainty of knowing y- you may fall out of favor.[00:24:53] So he’s not as certain of a bet as a man of more moderate income who you know will not be further diluting it with additional wives. ‘Cause keep in mind, what, what if you’re like wife number three for, like, millionaire man? But you don’t know how many more wives he might convince to get. Those economies have got, about to get gnarly, right?[00:25:14] So you’re gonna get, I think, fairly low-quality w- women, unless you’re super- Mm ... super high value or they’re very insensitive. Now, I think it’s different with things like sister wives, right? Because in a sense, in, it seems like in many cases, sister wives actually choose each other, and the husband’s just like, “Ugh, okay.”[00:25:31] Whereas they’re like, “Look, I need another woman around the house.” I, you know, and it’s like, not... You know what I mean? That, that’s kind of a dynamic at play. So I’m not talking about those k- types of marriages. Anyway blah, blah, blah. Okay, so basically she’s saying that, like, it only makes sense for women to marry the, the high-value men.[00:25:49] Next section. Let’s put any returns to bed for good. Of course, returns spent with a, spelled with a V, which you’ve noticed is a whole thing, right?[00:25:58] Malcolm Collins: Returns spelled with a-[00:26:00] Simone Collins: With a V. You’ve not... Are you... Really?[00:26:02] Malcolm Collins: I don’t know what you’re talking about.[00:26:04] Simone Collins: There’s this whole- how do I best describe it? Guys, how do I describe this to Malcolm?[00:26:11] This, like, go back to Roman times. It’s like the... It’s supposed to be so... It’s like trying to be highbrow Bronze Age pervert, and you start some, like, men’s association called RETVRN and it’s, it’s all about going back to traditional Christian values. This rings no bell? You’ve not seen any of this?[00:26:33] Malcolm Collins: I have no idea what you’re talking about.[00:26:33] Oh, my[00:26:34] Simone Collins: God. Anyway, I’m gonna read. I will read. And this is largely why some of these men are the biggest proponents of returning to a regime where women are locked out of jobs and bank accounts, and are stuck barefoot and pregnant in kitchens, shackled to duds. It’s seemingly the only way they see actually marrying women in nowadays, given the high ever-growing opt-out rates.[00:26:55] Clearly- She’s[00:26:55] Malcolm Collins: not offering an alternative. Like, we’re literally- Yeah, let’s see ... talking about an end to human civilization. Blah,[00:26:59] Simone Collins: blah, blah. Okay, so yeah, manosphere rejected. No returv- returvning. Case study: what can a median woman get from marrying the median man? Okay, so prospectively, the median woman can get a snag, an, or, expect to snag a median man.[00:27:14] The median man is short and obese, only has a high school degree, and makes approximately 50K a year. That can barely buy you groceries, much less a house anywhere. Oh, also when it comes to sex, a median Ejaculatory latency time is nine minutes. Nine minutes. So every week or so you’ll get nine minutes of awful sex that approximately zero women could get off to.[00:27:34] Man, sounds great. I can see why average women are just busting down the doors for median men to get married.[00:27:40] Malcolm Collins: That’s really the average time?[00:27:42] Simone Collins: I mean, that sounds bad, right? I don’t want that.[00:27:45] Malcolm Collins: I, I think you- You want that? I think you’d prefer that.[00:27:49] Simone Collins: Oh, you mean short and quick. Well, Malcolm, we have things to do.[00:27:52] Yes, no, the, but not a... I mean, every, I think[00:27:56] Malcolm Collins: every[00:27:56] Simone Collins: couple-[00:27:56] Malcolm Collins: If I, I’m honest, I would probably prefer that to be my [00:28:00] time than-[00:28:00] Simone Collins: Men prefer cookies more than... You, you under- we’re not gonna get into-[00:28:06] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, we’re not gonna get into it, but, like, yeah, that is,[00:28:09] Simone Collins: Women tend to prefer longer sexual periods ...[00:28:11] Malcolm Collins: I hear that and I’m like, that sounds very efficient.[00:28:13] Maybe this is actually why- Right,[00:28:14] Simone Collins: because the way that men experience sexual pleasure works a little differently from the way that women experience sexual pleasure, right? Like-[00:28:20] Malcolm Collins: Actually, this might be why we have such an extreme stance on, like, it, how do, how are people having kids when they when they’re, like, naturally, when, when they have a bunch of kids already.[00:28:30] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:28:30] Malcolm Collins: We’re like, “When are you, how do you people have active sex lives?” And now that I’m hearing that the average time for a guy to come is nine minutes, I’m like, that’s how you have a- that’s how you have sex lives and kids.[00:28:40] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:28:41] Malcolm Collins: You know? Yeah,[00:28:41] Simone Collins: you think the kids are gonna leave you alone for longer than 10 minutes?[00:28:44] I mean, this is, this[00:28:44] Malcolm Collins: is- Yeah, we, yeah. When I’m like, I just don’t understand how it’s, like, plausible that you’re having sex and a bunch of kids.[00:28:51] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:28:52] Malcolm Collins: Okay, I get it now.[00:28:53] Simone Collins: Yeah, 10 minutes, 10 minutes makes sense.[00:28:55] Speaker 6: Note here, this is part of the broader conversation that we have, which is I don’t get these people who are like, “I’m parents with, like, five kids, four kids, and we still have a healthy and active sexual relationship.” , Because this guy acts like a dead bedroom is, like, the worst thing in the world, and it’s like, no, I thought it was a natural part of having a ton of kids around the house and needing to hire a babysitter to be a, basically a prostitute by proxy, because that’s the only way you get to have sex.[00:29:25] Because God knows I’m not gonna have sex while a little baby is watching me, and I’m not gonna leave my baby outside the room for over an hour, , while I’m just pleasuring myself and my wife, right? You know, like, that’s gross, right? Like, the baby starts crying or something. What a horrifying thing.[00:29:43] And everyone’s like, “Oh, no, it’s so easy.” And I’m like, “Oh, because it only took nine minutes for you. That makes sense.”[00:29:48] Simone Collins: Anyway, blah, blah, blah. So she’s basically saying that marrying a mid man is kinda dire looking from the, the w- woman’s perspective, I mean, I can continue.[00:30:01] Man, sounds great, blah, blah, blah. Another triangulation point. Fully 35% of women lack interest in sex at all, and can you blame them? And around... Wow, so 35% of women are asexual, basically. I mean, that makes sense. It’s like all, all of, me and all of my friends in high school. And around 50% have at least one noticeable problem with the quality of sex they’re getting.[00:30:20] Want more context and flavor? Check here for actual comments from lots of women. It’s pretty clear that having approximately any job and pets and Netflix, and you own a place, is roughly 10X better than marrying the median man, who in addition to subjecting you to nine minutes of terrible sex every week, will want you to do his laundry and dishes and cook for him, and spend all your free time raising his awful kids.[00:30:39] Well, if you don’t like him, yeah, they’re awful kids. While also working full time because he can’t afford anything and needs your income for your, for you two to even survive. I wrote a whole article on why women have a raw deal in general, and this section comes from here. Click, click there for a more complete case.[00:30:57] All right, I’ll just... That’s its own article[00:30:59] Malcolm Collins: then. I’m not hearing the alternative.[00:31:00] Simone Collins: Yeah, okay, let’s see. All the positive effects of marriage are driven by selection effects anyway. Okay, this is still not a solution. How about health? Okay, that’s not a solution. It’s looking at long... The relationship between physical health and marriage was completely explained by ran- non-random selection.[00:31:15] Okay, so she’s saying marriage is not gonna make your health better. How about income? She cites some research. The results show that married men earn more because selection into marriage operates not only on wage levels, but also on wage growth, hence men on a steep career track are especially likely to marry.[00:31:30] We conclude that arguments postulating a wage premium for married men should be discarded. Okay how about happiness? Okay, she’s r- certainly gonna cite studies that show marriage doesn’t make you happy. This is why marriage is a luxury good now. The only people worth marrying are at the top quintile of pe- people, basically.[00:31:45] I feel like a hypocrite, because you’re like top 1%, pro- probably- True ... like top .01%.[00:31:50] Malcolm Collins: It’s true. I am one of the best living humans. Th- this is like an objective thing that anyone can-[00:31:54] Simone Collins: It is, though. That, that, that does, it, yeah. So like who are we to say, right? Like maybe- [00:32:00][00:32:00] Malcolm Collins: You are too, though, Simone, if I’m gonna be[00:32:02] Simone Collins: honest.[00:32:02] Nah. For, for you specifically, right, I’m, I’m the right kind of person. And we, we’re really lucky to find each other. But I’m trying to find the solution. This is immoral and bad. I’ll make this horrible suggestion for any proposal that is basically suggesting to create decades of misery. Okay, so basically marriage is immoral and bad because marriage sucks and people suck, blah, blah, blah.[00:32:19] Okay, so that’s your, that’s the argument. But, but we need more taxpayers. Next section. Maybe this is finally gonna be it. Come on performative bafflement, you might say. Look around you. Dependency ratios, the big problem. Oh, dependency ratios. You made that one.[00:32:33] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, d- I’m the one who popularized dependency ratios.[00:32:36] Simone Collins: You did. People, you- And[00:32:38] Malcolm Collins: I don’t even care about more taxpayers anymore now that we have AI. I’m just like, you know, we will replace you. That’s the goal at this point. We’ve gotta replace the existing population that thinks like this. Well,[00:32:46] Simone Collins: dependency sorry performative bafflement is, is humoring you here.[00:32:50] The big problem South Korea, and Japan, and China are headed in for is infinite ever-growing array of old people tiling,[00:32:58] tiling the sky to the horizon like octogenarian celestial vampires draining the economic and cultural life force out of their kids and grandkids as each kid has to support a greater number of sky vampires. Oh, that’s good. Performative bafflement, that’s good. That’s going to suck for them. Their entire economy is going to grind to a halt, and everyone is going to hate their lives.[00:33:18] And in the developing world, we’re all on the same train. They’re just getting to the station first, so that’s ours and our kids’ fates too. This big Ponzi scheme we like to call the American economy isn’t just going to make it without a bunch of kids cranked out en masse to keep the wheels spinning, right?[00:33:35] Well, friends, I’ve got news for hear you, for you here too. The median taxpayer isn’t. This is to say, no matter how you do the math, you do not approach the net neutral in taxes paid versus consumed unless you are in the top 10% of income for 40 plus years. Oh. Interesting argument here. So only the rich people have to get married[00:33:54] Malcolm Collins: Okay, I buy this.[00:33:56] Yeah, let’s get rid of- Sterilize all- ... the average person. Ster- and Leaflet has said this as well, that we should offer money- Yes ... for people to sterilize themselves. Yeah. Let’s move to le- what do we call this? Twist. Like, dark pronatalism?[00:34:07] Simone Collins: Twist.[00:34:08] Speaker 5: And if your question within dark pronatalism is, well then who’s worthy? Who should be having kids? It’s the people who are willing to make that sacrifice. That’s who decides. The people willing to make the sacrifice for the future. It’s you. It’s the individual who gets to decide, who gets to either find or not find a partner, who, , gets to make a good life for that partner, a good enough life that they want to have lots of kids[00:34:33] Simone Collins: Elitist pronatalism. We’ve always been accused of elitism.[00:34:36] You know, oh, the Collinses, they want people to have kids, but only the right people. And they want everyone to think that we’re like white people or like, Christian people, but we’re like, no, just like competent, happy people.[00:34:48] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So yeah, the com- if competent- And then taxpayers- ... happy people is this like rare, impossible thing.[00:34:55] Simone Collins: I will, I will continue, ‘cause we’re gonna have to get the kids real soon. Let’s just show this at a super high level. Only about half of Americans work. The rest are kids, retirees, and layabouts. So you’ve got 170 million workers. We spend 7 trillion a year, mostly on old people entitlements, from 52 to 69%, depending on where you account for national debt and interest and some other stuff.[00:35:15] I like round numbers, so let’s lazily call it 4.5 trillion for entitlements and 2.5 trillion for everything else. How much is 7 trillion over 150 million? It’s 40K in taxes paid per worker. You don’t hit that amount of taxes paid until you are top 5% of income, or 250K plus or so. But people pay dollars in payroll taxes every paycheck.[00:35:39] Yeah, sure, it doesn’t matter. The median worker pays 6 to 7K in federal taxes, including all those, and the mean is around 10 to 12K. Still way shy of 40K. I mean, even if you literally take out entitlements entirely, just that 2.5 trillion across all the workers, it’s like 15K a year.[00:35:56] The[00:35:56] Malcolm Collins: overwhelming- Because it’s highly heritable whether or not your [00:36:00] kids are going to pay into the s- system as[00:36:01] Simone Collins: well. Yeah, but I, I, this is an, this is an int- yeah, th- th- anyway, I’ll, I’ll skip around. Performative Bafflement says, “I’m not disparaging average people here who are genuinely paying a big chunk of their income in taxes.[00:36:11] I’m disparaging our maximally stupid government spending and policies, and pointing out that there’s literally no way it can go like this, go on like this with the sky vampires hit.” The sky vampires, I really like that. If we’re always and forever spending 6X more than we make per person, adding more people isn’t going to help.[00:36:28] We’re still... We do our system in the maximally stupid way, and as an example, taking the widow’s mite of taxes, 1K back then, in 1970s dollars, immediately spend it, then basically promise the person who paid those taxes in piddling 1970s dollars we’ll spend 40K per year on them in present day dollars when they’re old, which we’re doing.[00:36:46] Yes, that’s so true. I hate that. Versus if you were smart. Hi, Singapore. You’d put those 1970s dollars into some financial instrument that also grew with time, so by the time they were old, their money had grown and to offset some of that gap. Oh, and we also take on huge amounts of debt every year in a tiny 1970 dollar equivalence so that we hit both ways by that.[00:37:05] None of the positive contributions grow, but the debt grows with time. So today’s figure, if we actually get to paying off that debt, would mean more like 60K per year, but obviously we’re not paying it off. We’re racking it up, still more debt every year. I-[00:37:19] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I agree with this. Dark pronatalism. We, we should do a full episode- Dark pronatalism[00:37:24] where we go hard into the concept of dark pronatalism. ‘Cause it’s been the direction I’ve been moving in terms of like the populations you can actually affect, who actually matters, who we actually wanna have kids. And like yeah, dark pronatalism. I, I care that you plan to be a productive citizen, you want to be a productive citizen, and that means you’re gonna have productive children.[00:37:43] Simone Collins: Yeah, and Performative Bafflement, after making that whole tax argument, which I think we all understand now, points out that like if you like kids, you’d want them to be raised in a loving, functional, high socioeconomic status household with two parents because they will be better off, right? Like they have better everything and they want the kids and can raise them well.[00:38:02] And that’s pretty much the ending. Wow I like the alternative. Yeah, should have, should have left it at that. What a twist, huh? I like the alternative. That was, that was great. I mean, I’m not... I don’t, I didn’t get permission from the person who sent this, but good send. Yeah. I mean, we went into this blind.[00:38:15] I only had heard of... I, I think someone sent me one Performative Bafflement article before. I don’t know who they are. We still don’t know who they are. We like to judge people based on their ideas, and at first we were like, “Okay, this is whiny.” But also, oh my God, you’re right. Marriage does suck for most people who also just suck.[00:38:29] For...[00:38:29] Malcolm Collins: No, no, no, not for most people, for below average people.[00:38:34] Simone Collins: Okay, that’s like half of people.[00:38:36] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, but the point is, is that we can get rid of the bo- below average people.[00:38:39] Simone Collins: We’re not get... No, look, mm, look, we will let them do what they want, and that[00:38:44] Malcolm Collins: will mean- Lime and Stone can lead light pronatalism where they wanna help the Somalis have more kids and the, the random, you know, the freaking the homeless people who keep getting pregnant accidentally.[00:38:57] And we can run dark pronatalism[00:39:00] Simone Collins: You heard it here, folks.[00:39:01] Speaker 2: It’s sad to be able to appreciate part of the take and then see that after Simone stopped, it gets, ends on the most mind-bendingly stupid take I’ve ever heard, , which is fertility isn’t actually a problem for another 100 plus years. Even if the entire world fertility drops to 1.85 for the next 100 years, we’re going to have 9 billion people through 2125.[00:39:25] The low bar here requires it dropping to 1.5 around the world, , blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. , Fertility isn’t actually a problem for another 100 to 200 years. and, and in these like, and by the time it actually becomes a problem, we’ll have fully automated luxury gay space communism as the meme goes.[00:39:40] , What’s so funny here,[00:39:41] , in this very piece, he seems acutely aware that the vast majority, like one human is not equal to another human in terms of technological progress, in terms of economic involvement, in terms of economic progress. , And if we look at dropping [00:40:00] populations, like if the dropping population is primarily in this one group that’s paying all the taxes, globally speaking, that’s really, really bad for civilization, right?[00:40:16] Like I hate to say it, but if you look at like global birth rates and you’re trying to act like everyone’s gonna be equally likely to be economically productive and you’re just like, “Okay, well, where do we have good birth rates? Oh, like Somalia?” Do, do you really think that they’re going to be the next-- Collectively, I’m not saying any indivi- any individual Somalian can do great.[00:40:39] I’m just talking like averages and math here. That all of a sudden they’re gonna become this super economically productive region, , or, , be as economically productive as San Francisco? Come on, man. Stop being stupid. Like that’s just intentionally stupid[00:40:52] Simone Collins: Well, wow. I mean, yeah, I, I like that it’s always really fun when something fundamentally changes our view of something, and we already had a sort of shifting view of pronatalism because of the way we look at AI and, and how AI can potentially change this.[00:41:06] But totally valid point about taxpayers, and that like... Well, I mean, we’ve, we’ve also pointed that out, though, that like we don’t want net tax drains, which is why immigration’s not a solution and why you know, trying to push really low-income families to have more kids is, is not gonna solve the problem.[00:41:20] It will exacerbate it, as much as we w- welcome anyone who wants to have kids to have kids. ‘Cause also, like, why, why do you wanna pay taxes for the sky vampires? I also hear that. But inter- yes, so I, I’m gonna have to think about this. Thank you. All right. Well, I love you, Malcolm. I’m gonna go get the kids and make you crispy chili oil and garlic green beans with bun cha.[00:41:41] I love you. Bye.[00:41:42] Malcolm Collins: I love you, too. Bye.[00:41:43] Titan: One more time. One more time?[00:41:43] One more time. Oh.[00:41:44] Simone: No, you can’t be[00:41:47] Titan: in there. That’s mine.[00:41:47] Simone: I think if you guys use it again, I’ll just know[00:41:51] Titan: y- I was[00:41:51] Simone: choosing, I had to choose that. But then I would look there again ‘cause you just hid there. It’s mine.[00:41:59] Well, I think you’ll find one. I believe in you, Octavian. I really do. Indy, do you think Octavian’s a good hider?[00:42:06] Titan: Now count to 14. Count to 14.[00:42:10] Simone: Yes, exactly. To 3,100?[00:42:13] Titan: No.[00:42:13] Simone: Boy, that’s gonna be a long time.[00:42:15] Titan: 30 or 100.[00:42:16] Simone: 30 or 100? Okay. Ready? I’m gonna go. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven , eight, nine, 10,[00:42:30] 11, . Ready or not, here I come. Indy, where is everyone? Really?[00:42:46] What is happening? Why is that box moving, Indy? Why is it moving?[00:42:51] Titan: Oh my[00:42:53] Simone: God. It’s moving again. I’m so scared. What should I do, Indy?[00:43:03] It’s okay. I’m not really scared. It’s, it’s getting closer. I think I need to ... Oh, no Titan! It was you the whole time. Yeah. Wow, you’re very good at hiding. Do you know where Octavian is?[00:43:25] Well, I need to go inside and make dinner for everyone, okay?[00:43:28] Titan: Well-[00:43:28] Simone: Would you like to help me?[00:43:33] Uh, okay, just be careful, love. This is not a box with holes in it and you need air. So maybe just a loose covering, yeah? Okay, that’s fine. Good. Okay. You just, uh... I’m gonna find Octavian.[00:43:48] I’m not gonna tell the tooth fairy. Are you gonna keep[00:43:49] Titan: it? Um, if it is shiny.[00:43:52] Simone: I thought you wanted to keep it if it’s shiny.[00:43:54] Titan: Yes.[00:43:56] Simone: Okay. All right. I’m gonna go make dinner. I love [00:44:00] you. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

Why have communist regimes throughout history consistently persecuted, imprisoned, and killed gay people? In this Based Camp episode, Malcolm and Simone Collins examine the pattern across the Soviet Union, China, Cuba, North Korea, Cambodia’s Khmer Rouge, and more — backed by direct quotes from communist leaders and historical records.They break down the ideological reasons: homosexuality framed as “bourgeois degeneracy,” linked to fascism, rejected as hedonistic “gooning,” and clashing with extreme pro-natalist policies that viewed childless people as unproductive. The episode also contrasts this with capitalism’s unmatched track record as the most gay-friendly system in global history and explores the ongoing political shift of gay men toward Republican voting.If you’re tired of revisionist history that ignores communist crimes against the LGBT community, this is the conversation you need to hear.Episode Transcript [00:00:00] Malcolm Collins: Hello, Simone. I’m excited to be here with you today. Today, we are going to be asking a question, which is why do communists usually kill gay people? And it’s an interesting question. There’s two groups that communists generally like to kill and that is gays and Jews. Um, Which surprises a lot of people if they haven’t studied history or only look at the weirdos approach.[00:00:26] I mean, most Jews are aware of this, but there are a lot of gays who are completely unaware of this. And they have done this over and over and over again throughout history, and the only group that seems to do it as frequently as communists do it is socialists. Is this- They also really like killing gay people[00:00:46] Simone Collins: is this because both gays and Jews accumulate wealth?[00:00:50] Malcolm Collins: No. Gays typically produce less wealth than the average citizen. It’s just that on the outside curve, gays basically just have a wider distribution curve of talent- Oh ... than average humans. Okay. So in the same way[00:01:02] Simone Collins: that like with- Oh, so they’re like hyper men.[00:01:03] They’re like extra men.[00:01:04] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, in the same way that men, like, on, if you look at like the average man and you look at the, the, the curve, like women have like a[00:01:10] Simone Collins: trigger bell curve. Yeah, the bell curve is more flattened, whereas like the male bell curve is- In terms of IQ ... yeah.[00:01:13] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and with gays, the bell curve is flattened and shifted away.[00:01:18] Mm. But it’s flattened[00:01:18] Simone Collins: enough- Yeah, so that tip of the, the tip of the bell curve giant ...[00:01:20] Malcolm Collins: the tip of the bell curve. If you’re like, “Who are the top 10 chefs in the world?” Five of them are gonna be gay. “Who are the top 10 fashion designers in the world?” Five of them are gonna be gay. “Who are the top 10 AI designers- I mean, not average[00:01:33] in the[00:01:33] Simone Collins: world?” Gay. I mean, gay. Gay. But I mean blind.[00:01:36] Malcolm Collins: Well, no, you see this especially in creative fields. Yeah. You, you see a disproportionate number of gays. And actually I almost wanna like study this, like what the f**k causes that? But it’s also a reason why it’s, it’s, it’s a good idea to not burn the gay community be-[00:01:49] Simone Collins: Isn’t that the higher levels of testosterone?[00:01:52] It could be the higher levels of testosterone. So gay, gay men have, on average, higher levels of testosterone. What’s different from men? Higher levels of testosterone, like higher risk, high reward, like they’re going all in.[00:02:00] Malcolm Collins: That and they’re not having their brains polluted by constantly talking to women.[00:02:05] Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean- They’re not being henpecked. I mean, God, boys,[00:02:07] Malcolm Collins: right? Imagine, imagine what you[00:02:09] Simone Collins: would be able to accomplish. You would be unleashed, Bianca. You would be unleashed if you were blessed with dickness. If you[00:02:14] Malcolm Collins: didn’t have to, the, you know, yeah. There, there is, there is other ancillary benefits to the wider gay...[00:02:21] And not to say that nothing negative comes, but we’ll have that conversation later in this. But what I wanted to start by focusing on is like the, the m- ma- the majority of gay community, and this is changing. Like as we’ve pointed out, the gays are moving to Trump, right? Like in, in the voting. If they continue to move at the rate they have moved over the past few election cycles I think by the election cycle after the next, the majority of gay men will be voting Republican.[00:02:47] And I think by the next election cycle, the majority of gay white men will be voting Republican.[00:02:51] Simone Collins: Ooh ...[00:02:52] Malcolm Collins: so, yeah, guys, g- keep in mind the, the, this is a community that we can win. But historically, you look at the protests, you look at all the flags, and no, these flags don’t even really represent gayness anymore.[00:03:04] They represent like an opt-in identity at this point, the colonizer’s flag as we call it, the progress pride flag. I’m not gonna go into that right now, but so they, they, they, they have these flags, and they yell at people about Palestine. I recently saw them yelling at, A, the guy who replaced Nancy Pelosi, he was kicked out of a gay pride event when people followed him into[00:03:23] Simone Collins: it and- Oh yeah, there’s a picture of him on the front page of Drudge, like soaked in...[00:03:26] No, that’s Mamdani, never mind. But yeah yeah, there was a picture of him looking real mad.[00:03:29] Malcolm Collins: But it was, it was he wasn’t enough anti-Israel for these people and they-[00:03:33] Simone Collins: Not, oh, not enough. Never enough ... they were[00:03:35] Malcolm Collins: carrying their, their, the, apparently that’s a huge gay rights issue. And I’m like, gays, you and your natural predators, right?[00:03:41] Like communist, like the two groups that like have it in their mission statement to kill you, like Islamists and communists, right? Like Guys But let’s get into this. I wanna get into the stats, I wanna get into the facts, and I also wanna point out here that there has been [00:04:00] no governing or economic system that has been friendlier to gays throughout global history than capitalism.[00:04:08] Not one. Not one comes close to being as friendly or as open to gays than capitalist systems[00:04:17] Simone Collins: yeah, actually. Ac- I mean, look at some of the most successful capitalists today.[00:04:23] Malcolm Collins: Well, as to why, and, and there haven’t been many at all, and we can even get into it at the end if you want to purges or genocides of gays in capitalist systems.[00:04:33] It just doesn’t happen really. Happens in socialist, happens in communist- Wasn’t there the- ... doesn’t happen in[00:04:37] Simone Collins: capitalist ... the I wanna say pink scare around the time of the Red Scare?[00:04:43] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, but we didn’t kill them.[00:04:45] Simone Collins: Well, that ... Yes. Yes. Well, they- We didn’t send them to the gulags ... then, then AIDS came, and they killed themselves.[00:04:51] So there was also that. But that, that wasn’t capital- ... Well, it could’ve been capitalism’s fault because it was ... Patient Zero was a, an airline attendant, and if we weren’t so capitalistically abundant- If we weren’t so economically prosperous ... we wouldn’t be flying around the world on our little sexual romps, bring us, would we?[00:05:08] No.[00:05:08] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. If, if we weren’t so economically prosperous,[00:05:10] Simone Collins: So capitalism killed the gays really at scale- At scale ... when you think[00:05:13] Malcolm Collins: about it. No, it was orgies that killed the gays at scale. Oh. Hmm. Th- they could’ve, they could’ve just not done that when they knew a deadly disease was spreading through their community.[00:05:24] Simone Collins: Was it known to be sexually transmitted from the very beginning?[00:05:26] Malcolm Collins: It wasn’t from the very beginning, but people figured out pretty early. And it was very interesting for a lot of gay people to experience because it killed off a huge portion of gay culture, and the gays who survived it they were typically the, like, nerdy introverts.[00:05:45] And it- Yeah ... really transformed gay culture because with all the party guys who ended up dying off and all of the nerdy introverts who survived- Oh ... it sort of defined the way gay culture transformed itself. Where if you look at older gay culture, it was way more you could actually see this in stuff.[00:06:03] I wanna say, like, jockey, biker gangy.[00:06:05] Simone Collins: No.[00:06:07] Malcolm Collins: Y- you’ve seen the old videos and stuff. Like, it was, it was pretty tough, I guess you’d call it. And then it became sort of, effete and, and weird, but that was downstream of AIDS killing off the non-nerd gays, leading to gays to get more into nerdy hobbies and stuff like that.[00:06:25] Al- also, just as a side note here, one reason why capitalist systems are generally pretty pro-gay is it’s this flattening of the curve thing that ends up helping gays. It’s also why capitalist systems are generally pretty pro-Jew. Any group that’s disproportionately going to be in high-profile positions a, in a system that rewards meritocratic behavior like, e.g. Being genuinely more creative or genuinely more productive or being able to, like, build big companies or whatever it, it, people with those skill sets end up in positions of power and then prevent- the, you know, big attacks on their community and everything like that, right? Like- Mm. Mm ... the, both the gays and the Jews have done a very good job with this in the United States.[00:07:05] But let’s continue here. All right, so we’re gonna g- just go through every major communist system and whether or not they discriminated against or attempted to genocide the gays, okay? Okay, so the Soviet Union were gays discriminated against? This is the USSR, the main one, the one that, like, all the people today are fighting, you know, all that.[00:07:28] Yes heavily discriminated against gays. Article 121 criminalized male same-sex acts up to five years in hard labor in gulags. Thousands arrested thousands died. It w- it was, it was really horrible. A- and once you got back from these, you could never get a job again. You could never get a, and a huge percentage of the people who were sent ended up dying. It was really just, like, a, a sort of a death sentence deferred for them. Like, “Hey, m- we’re gonna kill this guy anyway. Maybe we can get some free labor out of him.” And if you hear about the way people died in the gulag work camps [00:08:00] and stuff like that, like building roads in the middle of the Arctic and, and freezing- Oh my gosh[00:08:03] to death and stuff like this, really horrible deaths. In terms of ex- explicitly targeted executions, no, but it was a functional genocide. That, that was the goal, where we’re gonna take everyone who’s gay and just get rid of them. And it’s, it’s really strongly documented. There’s not, you know, like, the confidence that this is extremely high.[00:08:19] Mm-hmm. But then you have China, the, the PRC. Yes, being gay was criminalized. It’s, it’s still criminalized in China. Still? Yeah, you could go to jail in China for being gay under the CCP.[00:08:32] Simone Collins: Oh.[00:08:34] Malcolm Collins: You did not know this?[00:08:35] Simone Collins: Oh. Wait, but then you’re going to a same-sex jail.[00:08:40] Malcolm Collins: I don’t think- So it’s not just like-[00:08:41] that that’s as fun- ... the gay club ... in the CCP as it is for you. But why don’t, why don’t you ask- For me- Why don’t you ask AI, like what gets you arrested in China right now around being gay, right?[00:08:51] Simone Collins: Okay.[00:08:51] Malcolm Collins: It was originally cr- criminalized under quote unquote hooliganism. And they were often forced into public labor camps where they were worked to death.[00:09:01] And they were forced into psychiatric cures that includes things like forced sterilization, other stuff like that. Were there executions? Yes, there were almost certainly executions under the Cultural Revolution because in the Cultural Revolution they’d execute you for just about everything.[00:09:15] And they- Yeah ... didn’t really keep good documentation. And I, this is the thing, a lot of leftist historians have sort of tried to scrub history, where you can ask a question where you’re like, “Was it illegal under the, you know, d- during the Cultural Revolution?” And they’ll, they’ll be like, “Yes.” And it’ll be like, “So were there mass executions around this?[00:09:32] Like, were people being executed for this?” No, no, but they- And they’ll say like, “Well, you know, the academics don’t really talk about it,” and I’m like, “Use your common f*****g sense.”[00:09:40] Simone Collins: Right. And I, I, I- You, you don’t wanna like make a list of like, “And today, dear diary, I did exactly this to this person brutally murdering[00:09:47] Malcolm Collins: them.”[00:09:47] Well, I mean this is like the thing. They’ll ... I saw one when I was trying to like w- figure this information out, when it was like, “Gays were not killed under the Khmer Rouge en masse.” And I was like, “Excuse me?” I believe some academic may have written that, but if you are at all familiar with the culture of the Khmer Rouge and what that government said about gays, then you would know that they were mass executing gays.[00:10:14] Anyway, what, what, what are the laws right now?[00:10:16] Simone Collins: So actually China decriminalized consensual same-sex relations- When? ... in 1997. And homosexuality was removed from the official list of mental disorders in 2001. Really all that gets you in trouble f- for is like sex work.[00:10:29] Malcolm Collins: I know, I thought, I thought posting about it, like getting posts that go viral-[00:10:32] Simone Collins: Yes[00:10:33] and stuff like- Obscenity. So if you post something that’s obscene, yes.[00:10:37] Malcolm Collins: Oh, well okay. So, so basically-[00:10:39] Simone Collins: But yeah, you can also post something that’s super straight and obscene, so I don’t see that as targeting gay[00:10:43] Malcolm Collins: people. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. The way they define obscenity is just same-sex relationships.[00:10:48] G- ask this.[00:10:49] Simone Collins: Producing or distributing sexually explicit material, including same-sex pornography- Right ... can be prosecuted under obscenity or illegal publication laws.[00:10:56] Malcolm Collins: The question is not what the legal system says, but what functionally happens. Ask it. Do people functionally, like we’re talking about the way the law’s functionally implemented, if you create a post on one of the social, sci- China social media websites, and you’re gay and you’re seen as promoting gayness, are you gonna get disappeared?[00:11:21] Okay. Next here, we’ve got Cuba. The ga- the, all these people love Cuba, and often love to forget that the UMAP had forced labor camps for gays labeled counterrevolutionary. They would lose their jobs, and they’d be imprisoned, and they wouldn’t be able to get jobs again, ‘cause that’s what happens in a communist system, where, like, like imprisonment’s a much bigger deal in a communist system than in a capitalist system.[00:11:44] And there were certainly[00:11:46] so yeah, in, in Cuba there were certainly large numbers of gay deaths in the work camps from it being illegal.[00:11:53] They did make it normal again in Cuba. I guess when they learned that the leftists who they wanted to be buddy-buddy with in the US weren’t [00:12:00] into them mass killing gay people. But yeah, they were super pro killing gay people. It just didn’t help their agenda in the United States, which was really significant.[00:12:09] Actually we recently found out that there was a high-level Cuban spy in the United States military for a long time. They kept telling people Cuba’s not that big a deal. Nothing that happened in Cuba matters. Anyone who’s telling you that in the comments either is completely ignorant of recent American history and how Cuba played a large part in organizing in far leftist organizations in the US, Antifa in the US, and US communists for about a, a, a half a century at this point.[00:12:35] Or they are like actively disinformation agents. And people you need to be watching. Like, everyone who right now is saying like, “We need to do s- we need to help Cu- whatever,” like they’re freaking out about Cuba. The left is freaking out about Cuba because Cuba is the cornerstone of American leftist or- organizing.[00:12:51] And the, I mean, they’ve d- they’ve taken over other countries functionally recently and, and when they learned that the, the, the, them mass executing gays was hurting that, they were like, “Okay, whatever.” But and functionally mass executing. It was through the work camps. Sorry, what are the rules around China when you-[00:13:04] Simone Collins: S- yeah, you, you are likely to have content you post online that promotes a gay lifestyle be taken down by the CCP.[00:13:12] Malcolm Collins: And disappeared?[00:13:14] Simone Collins: No, not necessarily. But you, you will be suppressed. You probably if you keep trying, you’ll be disappeared, but-[00:13:21] Malcolm Collins: Okay ...[00:13:21] Simone Collins: I guess there’s not enough documentation for AI to be like, “Yes,” it will just be suppressed or censored[00:13:29] Malcolm Collins: But yeah, so okay, let’s go to the next one. Notice here it’s been every single communist country has killed gays so far.[00:13:36] I’m just, like, letting you guys know. It’s not[00:13:38] Simone Collins: great. Yeah, I mean-[00:13:40] Malcolm Collins: Okay ...[00:13:40] Simone Collins: it doesn’t look great.[00:13:41] Malcolm Collins: And, and during time periods long after it was totally normalized in the West. In f- in fact there’s some documentaries if you wanna, like, hang out in gay circles or anything like that. Like, when I was younger, I was hung out with all the artsy kids and everything like that.[00:13:56] A lot of my friends were gay. And because of that I knew, like, the gay shows and stuff like that that they would watch. And one of the shows that, like, the GSA would play and stuff like that was about a gay person growing up on the eastern side of the Berlin Wall and, like, what it was like when the wall fell and how much freer their life got.[00:14:17] And, like, all the gays on the western side of the wall were all partying and going to nightclubs and having fun. And on the eastern side of the wall, it was, you know, forced castration and stuff like that.[00:14:28] Simone Collins: Forced-[00:14:29] Malcolm Collins: But anyway ...[00:14:30] Simone Collins: castration?[00:14:31] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I’m pretty sure the episode’s called Hoodwink and the Angry Inch, and it’s about that.[00:14:36] Simone Collins: Hedwig and the Angry Inch?[00:14:37] Malcolm Collins: Yeah.[00:14:38] Simone Collins: That’s what it’s about? Oh my God, okay.[00:14:41] Malcolm Collins: Wait, that’s about... Yeah, it’s about Berlin, right?[00:14:44] Simone Collins: I don’t know. I never watched it. That’s terrifying. Do you want me to look it up? I mean-[00:14:51] ...[00:14:51] Simone Collins: Sure, look[00:14:53] Malcolm Collins: it up. Yeah, l- look it up to, to double-check this.[00:14:55] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:14:57] Malcolm Collins: Okay. Next, Vietnam. This is the first one on our list that probably didn’t kill gay people explicitly.[00:15:08] Possibly. But Vietnam wasn’t that communist for that long. Vietnam never really had a full real communist revolution. They had the war with us to maintain communism, and then, like, immediately became capitalist after that and still called themselves communist. And are a great ally to the United States, one of the, the strongest allies we have anywhere in the world right now, which is pretty wild.[00:15:33] But i- it’s, it’s simply because they hate China more than they hate us, and we are their only counterweight to China. And that could actually influence why they have been not as anti-gay as other communist states. So the one communist state so far that wasn’t expl... And no, there was a stigma against gayness even, even so within socialist Vietnam, but it wasn’t never clearly illegal.[00:15:54] North Korea. Yes, you will be [00:16:00] executed for being gay in North Korea. It’s considered a corruption of morals. It is extremely illegal in, in North Korea. And it appears to still be illegal in North Korea. What’d you find out about Hedwig and the Angry Inch?[00:16:15] Simone Collins: It’s the story following Hedwig, a gender queer rocker from East Berlin whose botched sex reassignment surgery leaves her with an angry inch as she tours...[00:16:25] So it’s, it’s not the angry itch, I guess. It’s the angry inch. That’s what I said, inch.[00:16:28] Malcolm Collins: Inch.[00:16:28] Simone Collins: I thought it was itch. Oh ... sorry. As she tours shabby venues across the US telling her life story and chasing the ex-lover who stole her songs and fame. Though the concert style nar- through the concert style narrative, she grapples with trauma, identity, and the search for her other half, ultimately moving toward a more integrated sense of self.[00:16:47] Yeah, but[00:16:47] Malcolm Collins: was the, was the botched reassignment a forced thing by the state?[00:16:53] That was, that was[00:16:54] Simone Collins: my question Yeah, that’s what I’m trying to figure out. I know, I know it’s, it’s not... Yeah.[00:16:57] Malcolm Collins: So Cambodia, the Khmer Rouge, would you have been murdered for being gay? Absolutely you would’ve been murdered for being gay. The Khmer Rouge would murder you for speaking English or being a dentist.[00:17:12] Of course they’re gonna kill you for being gay. They, they killed people for f- nothing. They, they- it was the craziest of communist governments, and that meant they absolutely hated the gays. By the way, we’re, we’ll get into why they did this in a second if you’re confused as to why they always end up killing the gays.[00:17:28] Note again, we’ve also seen this with socialist revolutions. You know, famously when Ayatollah Khomeini was coming into power he allied with the gay movement. He allied with the leftist movement, said, “We’re all gonna be great friends forever and ever and ever.” He got in power, and now they literally just like...[00:17:45] Man, if you’ve ever seen these hangings, they are so brutal, the crane hangings in Iran. They literally[00:17:50] Simone Collins: just have like- Oh my gosh, yes. Yes. Oh, I’ve seen pictures of[00:17:53] Malcolm Collins: the scene Because you imagine they’re like giant construction cranes, and no they’re not. They’re like small, dinky, rusty construction cranes with like big crowds of people[00:18:02] Simone Collins: like throwing- This thing, it’s very town square in like m- medieval times kinda thing, yeah.[00:18:07] Malcolm Collins: Oh yeah, it’s, it’s horrifying. It’s horrifying. We- these people, I, honestly I think we should ban immigration. Yeah and this isn’t to say I’m against like I- Per- Persian Americans, but I think like the ones that we want got out largely speaking.[00:18:19] Simone Collins: Yeah. And,[00:18:20] Malcolm Collins: We, w- we, or at least[00:18:23] Simone Collins: strong ideological vetting.[00:18:24] I don’t know. I don’t want bad things to happen to anyone, but[00:18:28] Malcolm Collins: this is just- You, the only way, if there is a culture that acts in a way that you find systemically problematic, Simone, the only way to deal with that behavior is to make, either transform that culture into something that is unrecognizable to itself, right?[00:18:46] Or to replace that culture with another cultural group, right? All the quote unquote solutions to this are not going to look nice. But I think increasingly the world is tabling them. Because a lot of the, well I mean the, the world that’s breeding, the world that has power eg. the US and Israel going forwards, ‘cause like Europe’s basically irrelevant 20, 30 years from now.[00:19:08] Yeah. Anyway your, your, what did, what’d you find?[00:19:13] Simone Collins: It’s coerced, but it’s not literally depicted as a castration ordered or performed directly by the East German state. It’s pushed by Hedwig’s mother and the American GI as a condition for marriage and immigration within restrictive communist systems.[00:19:30] So-[00:19:32] Malcolm Collins: Well ...[00:19:32] Simone Collins: not really.[00:19:33] Malcolm Collins: Not really. Okay.[00:19:34] Simone Collins: Laos Told that to marry Luther, the American soldier and legally immigrant, a full medical exam and legal documentation require him to be female, so the mother and fiance presume sex surgery or pressure Hansel, who became Hedwig, into sex surgery. Yeah. So more complicated than that, yeah.[00:19:53] Malcolm Collins: Okay, so next. And I’ll go faster now for you guys. Laos, o- only the second one on the list that didn’t criminalize it although it was [00:20:00] negatively stigmatized. And Laos was not communist for that long. They only became communist in 1975. Hmm ... and they’re, they’re today not that communist. Ethiopia.[00:20:08] Yes, it, it was criminal and there were almost certainly mass killings of gays from what we know on the ground at the time during the Red Terror. Absolutely terrifying if you’re not familiar with this one. And they definitely killed a lot of gays. ... Romania. Yes private same-sex acts were criminalized, up to five years in prison.[00:20:27] Although we don’t know of any mass killings in Romania, there was almost certainly isolated killings of gay people in Romania for being gay. Mm-hmm. East Germany, yes, again. Next, as we were just talking about Poland. No, or at least limited. It was decriminalized in 1932 pre-communism, and remained so while a social stigma existed.[00:20:47] So this is, like, the next one on the list that’s a, a clear no. Czechoslovakia yes, initially, then reduced, criminalized early on, decriminalized in 1961 to 1968. So clearly criminalized. Whether or not it came with executions, we don’t have explicit examples of, but again, a lot of these places that had really harsh laws, yes, probably.[00:21:07] Albania yes, again it was criminalized under pedestry and it was a 10-year prison sentence. Oh my gosh ... and probably executions as well. ... Yugoslavia. But this wouldn’t have been mass scale executions, just, like, isolated executions. Yugoslavia a- again, this one we do actually have reports of executions, so we know for a fact it happened here.[00:21:29] And it varied by republic, but many of them did criminalize them with them being decriminalized in 1977, so we know that they were criminalized. So, let’s go to why they did this, right? Because this might confuse even Republicans today to be like, “Wait, capitalism is the pro-gay economic system, and communism is the anti-gay economic system.”[00:21:53] It’s like, I guess I kind of remembered that from history books, but why? Yeah. And why have the current gays forgotten this and are only just now remembering this? And what does this mean for the strategy to ensuring a Republican chokehold on the American electoral system and our continued victory? All right.[00:22:16] Let’s go into Maxim G- Gorky, ‘cause I’m gonna go over a lot of, like, explicit quotes from people, so... who were important communists so you can get an understanding of what they thought and why they thought this without me editorializing or putting words in their mouth. You know, I could say, “Oh, they thought it was inefficient,” or something[00:22:33] Simone Collins: like that.[00:22:34] Yeah, ‘cause I kept wanting to think, “Oh, well it must be because there was a large Christian population.” But no, this is communism. This is supposed to be, like, super not religious.[00:22:40] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So he, Gror- Maxim Gorky, a leading Soviet writer, said, “There is already a sarcastic saying, ‘Destroy homosexuality and fascism will disappear.’”[00:22:52] Simone Collins: W- oh, yeah. What was that called? Homo fascism.[00:22:56] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Gayness was super linked with Nazism in the communist mind.[00:23:04] Simone Collins: Just fabulous uniforms again. They’re just-[00:23:06] Malcolm Collins: I, I g- I get it. You[00:23:08] Simone Collins: get it.[00:23:09] Malcolm Collins: Like, I, I get it. I get it. I’m a little confused as to why the gays don’t identify with an... If you’re gonna choose a group that kills gays, like, choose the one- I thought- ... that’s well-dressed and had high-level gay m- members.[00:23:19] Simone Collins: Yeah, you want them to beat you with their fabulous batons.[00:23:22] . Aren’t you afraid the fashion police will come and beat you with their fabulous batons? No.[00:23:26] Malcolm Collins: Mm.[00:23:27] Simone Collins: Oh, God.[00:23:28] Malcolm Collins: Okay.[00:23:28] Simone Collins: Yeah, but yeah, the Nazis killed gays too, right? I mean, they killed a lot of people. But they was, they also- Mm ... killed gay people. I[00:23:34] Malcolm Collins: mean, they killed way less gays in total than the communists killed, but-[00:23:38] Simone Collins: Fewer gays. If you can,[00:23:39] Malcolm Collins: Thank you for the grammar lesson, Mr.[00:23:42] Simone Collins: Simone If you can count it, it’s fewer.[00:23:43] If it is like water, there’s, it’s uncountable, then it’s more or less.[00:23:48] Malcolm Collins: I will never learn your stupid English words.[00:23:50] Simone Collins: God, yeah.[00:23:52] Malcolm Collins: They will go away. Nobody’s gonna care about that in a few years. Okay.[00:23:58] Simone Collins: The AI[00:23:58] Malcolm Collins: will care. Nicolai [00:24:00] Krylenko this is the People’s Commissioner of Justice speech to the Central Committee.[00:24:04] He said, “In our environment, in the environment of the workers taking the point of view of normal relations between the sexes, who are building their society on healthy principles, we don’t need little gentlemen of this type.” We don’t need a little gentlemen of this type. That’d be a fun that’s, that’s, that’s Nick Fuentes-esque almost.[00:24:25] Simone Collins: Don’t you...[00:24:27] Malcolm Collins: We don’t need little gentlemen- Gentlemen of a certain type ... of this type. Who then for the most part of our customs in these affairs? Workers? No. Declassed rabble. Declassed rabble, either from the dregs of society or from the remnants of the exploiting classes. They don’t know which way to turn, so they turn to pederasty.[00:24:45] Now this is actually an interesting you know, kind of true point. Remember I said that gays seem to have a higher distribution curve in terms of success, like a flattened one, right? So they’re more on the both successful and unsuccessful edge, and less in the middle. He as a communist is noting this here.[00:25:02] He goes, “Either they’re in the unclassed rabble,” like the, the super low class that d- is unproductive, or they’re former high class individuals.[00:25:15] Simone Collins: Hmm[00:25:16] Malcolm Collins: Which is a pretty interesting observation, but I can see where it’s coming from. Again Let’s go to another one here. Another statement by the same guy. “After two decades of building socialism in the USSR, there is no reason for anyone to be a homosexual,” he said.[00:25:32] Joseph Stalin said to command co- c- to, to Commander Karnovich, “These scoundrels must be subject to exemplary punishment.” Oof. “And a corresponding guiding decree must be introduced into our legislation.” The report framed homosexual networks as potential counter-revolutionary espionage risks, which again, is actually kind of true.[00:25:57] If you’re cracking down on gays in your country because you see them as associated with fascism or whatever as you can see in the, like, books on gay people who lived under communism and stuff like that they had a reason and to be meeting with other people secretly, which is a good way to accidentally build an espionage network, right?[00:26:16] So I- I’m actually pointing out here that, like, they weren’t unreasonable in their fears of this. What Fidel Castro said just in terms of how much responsibility he took for it, he said, “If someone is responsible, it’s me. There were moments of great injustice. Great injustice,” he said. Now why?[00:26:34] Well, mostly because he was just taking orders from the other ... And most communists hate gays, get to that in a second. Let’s go to why the Chinese attacked it. They saw it as bourgeoisie degeneracy and Western corruption in nature. This is true as well. The idea of, like, middle class gays just sleeping around is a very Western idea and very antithetical to Chinese traditions.[00:26:58] And the place where you would’ve seen same-sex relationships in more ancient China is within the elite class. So they very likely would have seen it potentially even rightly so, as antithetical to actual Chinese value systems. In Cambodia, direct quotes specify, specifically naming gayness are rare because they destroyed most of the records.[00:27:23] But the regime demanded the removal of anything that they saw as decadent or bourgeoisie bougie. And gayness was definitely seen within those categories. North Korea again it’s seen as being a f- a form of capitalist corruption, basically ‘cause it’s hedonism, right? Like, think about it from this perspective.[00:27:41] If you say, “Okay, everybody, like, let’s get together and do what’s necessary for the state, for the people, for everyone,” right? Like, just sacrifice ourse- because this is the thing, real communism, when it’s been tried, sorry to the real communism that’s [00:28:00] never been tried, but People have tried, it just always ends up bad before.[00:28:03] Like look at our videos where we discuss why it always goes not in the direction the people with the pie-in-the-sky goals want it to go. Yeah. But the ... what it basically is is saying we are all going to sacrifice personally within our lives to move society forwards. In a way communism is very techno-puritan in its value framing, right?[00:28:29] Like everyone within the state suffers, everyone within the state does not pursue their own happiness, their own hedonism a- anything like that, and true happiness only comes for suffering for something you truly believe in, with that thing you really believe in being a better future for humanity, for, for communist humanity, right?[00:28:53] And you see this with the figures that the communists would elevate in any of these countries, right? They were always Mr. Worker Man, right? Like, you know, they’ll have the shovel and they’ll have the, the thing, the ...[00:29:03] Speaker 2: александр Пузыгин[00:29:15] Сивина Градова[00:29:22] Malcolm Collins: well, you even look at their- The, the ... look at their ... it’s a hammer and sickle, right?[00:29:25] It’s like the working man, right? Like the, Yeah ... a- and, and they would build these sort of folk heroes, and you could track these folk heroes. And the folk heroes were always like a guy who did a grueling, extremely hard job for an extremely long period of time because he wanted to make things better in some way.[00:29:44] Which is not a bad value system to And[00:29:47] Simone Collins: no, it’s, it’s wholesome ... to grow. When you, when you say it that way it’s fantastic, yeah.[00:29:52] Malcolm Collins: Mm. It just leads to mass death and suffering and everything like that. But again, other episodes- Mm ... we go into more detail. But if that’s what ... A- and the communists in the West, they just want the free stuff from other people.[00:30:05] They’re basically like, “Let’s take stuff from the rich and give it to people who don’t wanna work,” right? I don’t wanna work, I wanna work ... or I wanna work on something like educating people in communist ideology or educating people in gender frameworks or ... It’s always, they always wanna work in the education camps, right?[00:30:22] I wanna, I wanna work in you know, th- g- creative field. It’s like they don’t need a lot of creatives. Oh, I’m gonna yell on that under communism because, ... that’s a form of like hedonistic pleasure, not really needed, okay? Mm. But-[00:30:35] Simone Collins: I mean, propaganda needs it ...[00:30:37] Malcolm Collins: if all communist forces start with people with each of these mindsets, one that actually[00:30:44] It’s funny, one that’s actually virtuous and wants to attempt to make human society better through diligent labor and another that just wants to spend all day at home gooning, okay? And the one who wants to spend all day at h- on home gooning secretly, the, the, the, the, you know, whatever alphabet soup the orgy party people, right?[00:31:09] People get the guns, people go out and take over the government, and then these two sides have a disagreement about how things are gonna be run. Because the people who want society to continue to advance and people to continue to work and for this all to just not immediately fall apart says, “Hey I’ve noticed some people aren’t working, and why don’t we shoot them because they’re a problem for our society, right?”[00:31:33] And then the the people who just wanna sit at home all day gooning are like, “I thought that’s what the revolution was all about.” And then the two sides are like, “Well, I guess we disagree.” Now it doesn’t matter if the gooners make up 80% of the population they’re not the ones who will spend the day going door to door shooting people.[00:31:51] Whereas repeatedly the other side has shown that they’re exactly that type of person. This isn’t the, the only way that it, reason it turns bloody, but we have [00:32:00] a bunch of other episodes where we go into this. But it is one of the reasons why the gooners never take control of the communist systems and why the extremely militaristic people always do.[00:32:09] Because they’re the people willing to do what is needed to gain power. So even if that other side made up 80% of the population that wanted a revolution, pretty quickly you get to house number five and they’re like, “Actually, I support you guys. Yeah, sure, I’ll go to the widget factory every day for the rest of my life doing a, a mindless job while I choke on smoke that’s pointlessly wafted onto our cities because it makes them look more industrial,” a real thing that they did in both China and the USSR.[00:32:35] Did you know that by the way?[00:32:36] Simone Collins: No. That’s...[00:32:38] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, so in China, this is a problem they’re dealing with even today, where they would explicitly build the large factories upwind of the major cities so that the cities would become polluted faster, because they thought it made them look more industrialized and modern[00:32:58] Simone Collins: That, hmm[00:33:03] Okay I don’t know about that Is[00:33:05] Malcolm Collins: that, is that astonishingly stupid?[00:33:08] Simone Collins: That’s, yeah. I’m trying to think of a diplomatic way to put it, but I think astonishingly stupid is all we can fall on today. That’s, there’s no, there’s no excuse for that. It’s, oh, God. It’s so bad. It’s so bad. Oh. Mm. Okay.[00:33:22] Speaker 9: By the way, I was fact-checking this and, , it’s been very interesting. I can’t find any positive affirmations that this definitely happened, but I can’t find any negative affirmations that, that this is a historic myth. So who knows where I heard this, but they do say there is a suspicious number of factories in both Communist China and Russia upwind of major cities.[00:33:44] , But we can’t find any record of why they built them there. So I, I could be wrong[00:33:49] Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm. Yeah. What’s interesting is, is that the people who gain power within communist systems that last for any period of time and function to any extent, actually think a lot like capitalists, like the most ruthless people within a capitalist system.[00:34:04] They’re just often l- legally allowed to just kill anyone they think is unproductive. Whereas in the, the capitalist system, it’s more like people might be like, “Well, it would be, you know, there’s a lot of people who are drains on the state. There’s a lot of people... But you know, you can’t do anything about it.”[00:34:20] In these systems, they’re just like, “Yeah, sure, like d- d- take, take care of it.” Do I wanna talk about why communist systems always fail? No. You can go to our other videos on that if that’s of interest to you. I don’t wanna wa- waste your time with it on this video. But what I do wanna talk about is, so if you have this idea, and people are like, “Well, gays don’t spend all day gooning.”[00:34:37] Right? Like, some gays are productive citizens. Some gays wanna make society better. And it’s like two things. One, you know well and good that those gays have a lot less social power than the ones who are the gooners. Right? Like- ... the gooners typically gain more power than the- Gooner power ... socially responsible ones.[00:34:58] Historically. Now, I’m seeing this shift within American gay culture in response to their movement being so taken over by the, the extremist extremist gooners, and they’re, and they, they don’t even like, the LGBT folks, they don’t even like the gays anymore. They’re like, the, the, the new thing is like a, a, a male gay is the new male straight because all the, the, the, is the new white male, you know.[00:35:16] Because all the white straight males left the, the left, right? And so now they’re, they’re, they’re picking on the next group, and the next group’s like, “Yeah, what, what am I doing here?” R- and this is where, you know, like how is it that we, there’s so few gay Republicans, and but like our top vote getter, Scott Pressler, is gay, right?[00:35:32] Literally moved to the movement ‘cause he’s like, “I don’t understand why the leftists are cozying up with the Islamists. They wanna kill me and everyone like me.” Right? Like, and we’ve, and we’ve seen a pretty successful alliance with the two groups here with Trump. The New York Times wrote an article, Trump’s Big Gay White House, pointing out that disproportionately, and we’ve seen this as well, his White House is, is staffed by gay men.[00:35:51] And it is becau- and, and the famous quote from like a Republican lady in DC was like, “The Trump administration came in and I thought there’d be so many good dating prospects, [00:36:00] and they’re all gay.” But they’ve been efficiently moving forwards with a lot of the agenda that we want to see carried out, so like I’m, I’m, I’m chill with that, right?[00:36:08] You know, I, I can say that the, the Bible’s against it and also say, but there’s a lot of other things the Bible against that are bigger issues for me than that. And- The, the wider stuff around, like the toxic parts of the movement have mostly expelled the gays to the extent that they are useful to work with us, and that they no longer have the social power if we accept them into our movement to ever force their lifestyle on the next generation again, nor do most of them want to who want to join our side, right?[00:36:40] So like why- Mm-hmm ... be pointlessly mean about it? You’re just hurting us in future elections. But yeah, but I’ve pointed out, you, you know, this can still mean banning gay marriage and stuff like that, like whatever, right? Like, but the, why the communists are always turning against them, because even if you are an upstanding, hardworking, soci- civically minded gay, you’re still not having kids, and most communist systems were incredibly pro-natalist.[00:37:03] The, the only exception is China, interestingly that I’m aware of.[00:37:07] Simone Collins: Yeah. But like- Yeah, yeah. Well, but that, yeah, I think maybe it was kind of the fault of the Communist Party anyway, ‘cause they were dealing with like the famines that they caused, and then they were like, “Oh, let’s-”[00:37:17] Malcolm Collins: No, no, no, the Communist Party in China was initially super pro-natalist.[00:37:19] They wanted people to have tons of kids.[00:37:20] Simone Collins: Yeah, and then there were the famines, and then, yeah. So[00:37:22] Malcolm Collins: then- And then they did a 180. But the- Yeah ... the Soviets were pro-natalist the entire time. They gave out mothers of medal, m- motherhood medals. They gave out all sorts of, you know, rewards, awards, anything[00:37:37] Mm. Delicious. But yeah. It was, By the way, people are asking if I like, am, I’m drinking milk for some weird diet reason or something. Like I’m on some sort of c- I’ve just always really liked milk.[00:37:52] Simone Collins: It’s- You’re a European cow herd descendant, I guess.[00:37:58] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. No, this is the thing. There’s a bunch of like, you know, people from cultures that are not milk drinking cultures who don’t know how normalized milk is in- Mm-hmm[00:38:06] Northern European cultural groups. Milk and cheese are the f*****g best. Few, few flavors in this world better than milk and cheese, people. To a Europ- Northern European.[00:38:16] Simone Collins: I’m with you, man. Yeah.[00:38:17] Malcolm Collins: D- in, in, in Scotland in the medieval period, you had to pay your taxes in cheese. That’s always been one of my favorite factoids I learned- Me too[00:38:23] studying Scottish history. Mm. So I have to say it. So the local like, bishop would like have a, like a basement full of like cheese. Cheese.[00:38:35] Simone Collins: The fir- the word factoid I believe actually refers to a, a, a fact that’s not true. Let me, let me actually fact check this.[00:38:43] So I did fact check it and it’s right[00:38:45] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, that that doesn’t sound true to me.[00:38:46] Yeah, so, so because of that you’re like intrinsically in the same way that on this podcast I’m also like, generally I think you’re gonna be able to do more for society unless you’re fairly wealthy if you are gay with today’s technology. If you decide to just, not live a life around what turns you on.[00:39:06] I don’t think it’s as bad as it was historically. Hmm. But I think that, you know, on the edge you’re probably gonna be more productive. And we have a, we have a- I mean, yeah,[00:39:13] Simone Collins: I mean, I, I think it depends on the person. I think some people are more productive because they, it[00:39:19] Malcolm Collins: seems like marriage- Have a really[00:39:20] Simone Collins: good[00:39:20] Malcolm Collins: partnership.[00:39:21] Simone Collins: And, yeah They’re[00:39:21] Malcolm Collins: not burdened by women, yeah.[00:39:22] Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah, but- It’s like look, and like, and like trying to... Let’s say, like, you wanna have a family, right? And you don’t wanna raise the family alone, but you find women both so, socially abrasive and physically repulsive that you understand that if you tried to raise a family with a woman you would just be miserable and be a bad parent.[00:39:40] It makes sense.[00:39:41] Malcolm Collins: Simone, I think, I, I think a number of straight guys feel this way.[00:39:44] Simone Collins: Well, the, I mean, like, there’s a... What’s the word for... So, so there’s political lesbians, what’s the word for... Or are, are they just called, like, MGTOW gays, I guess? What, what are we, what are we gonna call them? I guess they don’t exist or maybe they [00:40:00] do.[00:40:00] It’d be really interesting to, like, find, find just we can’t stand women gays who are not gay. Anyway, though.[00:40:09] Malcolm Collins: Oh, by the way, funny, funny side note. Yeah. So for RFab we were making ads for our video, the Not Safe For Work video feature today.[00:40:15] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:40:16] Malcolm Collins: And I sent you the, the, like, sample ads that I created.[00:40:19] Did you notice-[00:40:20] but have you, have you noticed that I always make one of the characters look like you?[00:40:24] Simone Collins: There’s a pattern.[00:40:25] Do you want me to wear the thin-rimmed glasses?[00:40:29] Malcolm Collins: No, just when you write for AI large circular glasses, that it does thin-rimmed.[00:40:33] Simone Collins: You, you say black circular thick-rimmed glasses, and for yours black rectangular thick-rimmed glasses. It’s very easy. However, you do not need to make it accurate. I have, I’ve also made, I’ve also made some for, for-[00:40:50] Malcolm Collins: You’ve made some where I’m one of the characters?[00:40:52] Simone Collins: No. No, no, no, no, no. I’ve, I’ve... No, because we’re not targeting people like me in the ads. I’ve made some based on my understanding of what is extremely popular. So.[00:41:02] Malcolm Collins: Send it, send them to me. I wanna see what, what you did. I gotta give you a rating. No.[00:41:07] Simone Collins: No, I’m gonna let our ad performance give me the rating.[00:41:11] ‘Cause also, you, you don’t have tastes that reflect mainstream interests, so. I mean, like, the most mainstream interests, which are very vanilla, pretty boring. No,[00:41:20] Malcolm Collins: I gotta do one of, like, a, an elf girl in chains being hit[00:41:24] Simone Collins: by[00:41:24] Malcolm Collins: somebody.[00:41:26] Simone Collins: I mean, maybe among base camp viewers that’s more normative, but like a- among your mainstream, like what gets the most views no.[00:41:36] No. Just look at Aella’s Big Kink Survey and just look at what actually is really popular. Well,[00:41:43] Malcolm Collins: yeah. Okay. You’ve also gotta think of what’s popular on gooner sites[00:41:49] Simone Collins: Yeah, sure. Yeah, and I guess someone who has to like, who wants to pay to make unique content. That’s fair.[00:41:59] Malcolm Collins: Yeah.[00:41:59] Simone Collins: Oh, God. Sorry, I just, yeah.[00:42:03] Anyway I[00:42:04] Malcolm Collins: thought- I do not think the ExoClick feature that tells you which ads are doing well and which ads are not doing well is very good, by the way.[00:42:12] Speaker 10: For context, , we’ve recently started running ad campaigns to promote, , the not safe for work video feature on the rfab.ai website. , And Simone and I are having disagreements about what types of videos people will click on, and we will see. We will see. She thinks people want super, super generic stuff[00:42:34] Speaker 11: I’m busy[00:42:45] Simone Collins: are we trying to head off losing the competition?[00:42:47] Malcolm Collins: No, no, no, I’m just telling you as-[00:42:49] Simone Collins: I[00:42:50] Malcolm Collins: see. Okay ... it has in the past with ads had, like, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 99%.[00:42:58] I’m like, “So you didn’t even try the other ads?” It’s just like one ad sort of-[00:43:01] Simone Collins: No, it actually, it actually does try them. And it will occasionally flip some out. They fluctuate over time- Okay ... when it serves the most. So it, it, it has a smart enough system where if one ad gets kind of tired essentially, I’ve noticed that it will cycle it out which is interesting to me, and it will start feeding up ones that were less used.[00:43:19] So I’ve, I’ve, I’m glad I’ve introduced all new ad variants to test out more because people are getting tired of our old ones.[00:43:28] Malcolm Collins: Anyway,[00:43:30] Simone Collins: I really love you. People are weird. And[00:43:38] Malcolm Collins: stop advocating for your natural predators, guys. Like this-[00:43:42] Simone Collins: Communism, let’s not. Let’s... You gotta choose. Gayness. Well, no. See, like communism is also incom- incompatible, to your point with a lot of other things that we, we like, so yeah.[00:43:59] There [00:44:00] is a, there is one other thing though that I about capitalism that I think is quite broken that I wanna do a totally separate episode though on, and I don’t wanna- Oh,[00:44:08] Malcolm Collins: oh, what is it on? What is it?[00:44:09] Simone Collins: I don’t wanna talk with you about it until I do it ‘cause I wanna get your fresh thoughts on it instead of your tired old reaction having already heard this.[00:44:18] You know how it is with old couples where, like, you know that they’ve had the conversation already. You know that that, you know, that wife has told that story 10,000 times in front of the husband, and he’s just sit, he’s just sit through it like he’s been on, like, this one track ride so many times, and he doesn’t wanna get back on the haunted mansion ride, but he has to go back on the ha- haunted mansion ride, and it was fun the first 10,000 times but not the second 10,000 times.[00:44:41] I don’t wanna do that to you. Let’s, let’s keep it fresh. Yeah?[00:44:45] Malcolm Collins: Okay.[00:44:45] Simone Collins: Okay. Okay.[00:44:47] Malcolm Collins: Love[00:44:47] Simone Collins: you. You, you can always guess what it is though over dinner when- whenever you want to, whenever we chat.[00:44:51] Malcolm Collins: Doing a site update right now, by the way, with a bunch of improvements to not safe for work video generation, making it a lot cheaper to do.[00:44:58] Simone Collins: Oh, that’s good.[00:44:58] Malcolm Collins: By employing the new API that I found that’s basically a secret API which is so cool that I was able to get working[00:45:10] Mm. So I’m very excited about that. And Simone was playing around with it, and she’s like, “Oh, this is really good.”[00:45:13] Simone Collins: Yeah. I, I can see how it gets addictive, ‘cause it’s one of those, like, you don’t know what you’re gonna get, and it’s, like, really satisfying, but then that one thing’s off, and so you wanna try again, and yeah, yeah.[00:45:25] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And as a reminder if you haven’t redownloaded the app in a while, the app for image viewing has been massively improved since it first launched. It’s, like, way more stable now, has way more features now. Mm. And if enough of you download it, apparently it will elude that stupid tag, like, this isn’t checked by Windows Defender or whatever.[00:45:44] Oh. Do you know that auto goes away after enough people use something?[00:45:47] Simone Collins: Really? Silly.[00:45:50] Malcolm Collins: It is quite silly. I... F*****g Windows.[00:45:53] Simone: Titan, do you wanna play hide and seek too?[00:45:55] Titan: Yeah.[00:45:56] Simone: Okay. One, two, 10. Ready or not, here I come. All right, Indy, do you think I can find them? Do you think I can find them? I’m gonna look around. I found you. Titan, I found you.[00:46:16] Girl. All right, now we have to find Octavian. Where could he be? Do you have any ideas?[00:46:23] Titan: He’s under[00:46:25] Simone: the black box. The black box? Yeah, yeah. No, I hear him yelling, I think. Oh, wait.[00:46:34] Oh, no, it’s moving. It’s alive. Oh, no. No.[00:46:46] You win, Octavian. That was very good. That was ve- And I was crawling under there ... I really, I thought maybe you were- I was crawling under there. I s- that was, yeah, that was very impressive.[00:46:55] Titan: No. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

Spend enough time watching girly content these days, and you’ll see a commenter or creator cite “the Girl with the List.” This batman of Lady Internet is literally summoned in content across tiktok and instagram. Her bat signal: “Where’s the girl with the list?”Her purpose? Cure baby fever. Remind you to take your birth control.Today, we explore the work of the Girl (actually girls) with the List, the unique genre of choice-based horror stories (be they pregnancy, parenting, or entirely-non-family-related activities, such as cosmetic surgery and travel), and whether this genre helps or harms. Enjoy!Show NotesThere’s a young woman named Abigail Porter (goes by Zoomie) with 1.6M followers on Tiktok who is famous for “curing baby fever” by creating abundant shorts on pregnancy and delivery body horror and frustrating experiences parents have while lactating and raising young kids.Just this week I’ve heard two mentions of her in the wild “She changed my life” said one. “I literally owe her everything”Suffice it to say she is, at best, feeding into women’s feelings of justification for not having kids, and at worst, generating fear about having kids where it didn’t exist before.Abigail is not alone in creating viral content of this genre—there’s also “the girl with the list” with whom Abigail is often confused and that list is called “YUNI’S PROS AND CONS LIST OF HAVING CHILDREN”), so we should probably talk about it!So… Why avoid pregnancies?Some highlights:* A woman whose insides needed stitches after her baby scratched her from the inside on the way out* A woman whose baby began to choke on her nipple after it literally fell off* A woman who grew a tumor on her lip the size of her pinky* Women losing their hair, their teeth, all their eyelashes* A woman who developed a mutation during pregnancy that made her insensitive to pain meds who had to endure a c-section with no pain meds* A woman who went deaf after her kid kissed her on the ear, causing what’s called “the kiss of death”* BTW, this is also known as cochlear ear‑kiss injury / Reiter’s Ear Kiss Syndrome (REKS)* It happens when someone kisses directly over the ear canal (the opening of the ear), especially using a strong suction/“air kiss.” and it can cause permanent hearing loss* A woman whose retinas detached because she pushed so hard in labor* Women whose bodies have become both temporarily and permanently deformed or uglified (swollen hands and feet, swollen legs, varicose veins, popped blood vessels in eyes, toe nails falling off, etc.)There are basically four themes:* Relatively unusual medical complications from pregnancy and lactation (like uterine prolapse, various forms of body horror)* The expenses of labor and delivery* Poop and pee horror* Pretty common parenting, pregnancy, and postpartum stuff, e.g.:* Fussy babies who are only calm when being bounced* The rectus abdominus being separated* Swelling* Using a nosfrida to suck snot out of a baby’s nose* Having strangers on the internet jump down your throat for really innocuous things, such as mentioning breastfeeding* Kids making messes around the house (flooding, vandalism, etc.)The Psychology of it AllAvailability HeuristicCreators like Abigail and Yuni make pregnancy and parenting look heuristic by making their hazards extremely visible and available, but it’s extremely easy to do the exact same thing Abigail does with other life choices, and that includes life choicesKnown genres:* Hiking (e.g., Mr. Ballen videos)* Cosmetic surgery (e.g., Wonny)* Buying homes (e.g., videos and tiktoks by home inspectors)* Eating out at restaurants (e.g. dirty restaurant audits)You can effectively develop an aversion to—even phobia of—pretty much anything by giving yourself sufficient exposure to its hazards.This genre is a form of opt-in brainwashing, though it could also be a form of unintentional, algorithmic brainwashing.Loss AversionHumans generally weigh potential losses about 1.5–2.5 times as strongly as equal-sized gains in typical risky choices, though the exact ratio and even the presence of loss aversion depend on context and measurement method (there’s a lot of research on this)See:* https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/prospect-theory* https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/loss-aversion* https://www.behavioraleconomics.com/resources/mini-encyclopedia-of-be/loss-aversion/* https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0167487024000485* https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/prospect-theoryThis means that people will be far more influenced by downsides of parenting than by upsides.It’s worse than that, though, because creators like Abigail and Yuri can’t even wrap their heads around the rewards of parenting. Abigail’s most commonly cited argument is “kids are cute” whereas Yuri’s list includes:* “Child?”* “Tax return benefits”* “Tiny everything”* “You can’t get drafted while pregnant”* “You can bribe them with candy”* No you can’t* “If you raise them right people praise you for it”Overthinking & tokophobia* Overthinking things is why mental health is plummeting* Abigail fundamentally gets people to overthink pregnancy and childrearing* Robert Sepulsky talks about how the system we’ve evolved to deal with stress wasn’t really designed for animals capable of metacognition, who can literally trigger that system by THINKINGOverthinking about pregnancy may be contributing to a rise in phobia about pregnancy (known as tokophobia).A 2017 systematic review of 33 studies (≈854,000 pregnant women worldwide) estimated a pooled prevalence of tokophobia around 14%, with individual study estimates ranging from about 3.7% to 43%.* The researches concluded that the prevalence of tokophobia “appears to have increased in recent years (2000 onwards)”, although they cautioned that this finding is complicated by changing definitions and heterogeneous methods.More moderate but still clinically relevant “fear of childbirth” (not always labeled tokophobia) is common, with estimates in some European samples of about 5% with severe fear and over a third with high fear.About AbigailHer content creation journey* Started in 2021She’s very much a product of the urban monoculture* Lives in downtown Los AngelesHer standards for hardship are quite low:* She says that getting an IUD was the most painful thing she has experienced.* She hates cleaning up after cookingShe also does love caring little things:* She says she would protect her cats, Bub and Willow, with her lifeShe has merch!* $60 “divorce your republican husband” XL crewneck sweatshirt with a wolf on it (sold out)* $50 “dump your republican boyfriend” M/L hunting camo crewneck sweatshirt (sold out)* $68 “dump your republican boyfriend” XL green crewneck* $58 “dump your republican boyfriend” XL pink hoodie* $68 “dump your republican boyfriend” L green/blue crewneck sweatshirt* $54 “dump your republican / story of my life” XL running-away-deer black crewneck sweatshirt* $60 “dump your republican boyfriend” L cameo hoodie (sold out)* $58 “dump your republican boyfriend” M navy zip-upWait why are most of these for larger people?How do we feel about this?What Abigail is doing is fine. She’s pretty clear in her content to not shame parents; she’s really empathetic toward parents (can’t say the same of many parents online!).She’s also WAAAAY more ethical and polite than your typical content creator about the clips she uses: She told NBC: ““If I’m going to do a video about bodies in particular and show somebody’s body, I’m going to make sure that I have consent from that mother first — like if she posted a video and she made this acknowledgement like, ‘This is my body. It’s pretty crazy. The things that have happened in my body is pretty wild.’””She also told NBC: “I have such a respect and a reverence and an admiration for the people who do choose to go through with this, because it is a huge choice,” Porter said. “I hope people will stop treating having children as an impulse decision that everyone does. I think that’s better for us and also for the children, because if every child that was ever born had parents that really, really wanted them, I think the world would be a better place.”YES!!People should only want kids because they have a strong reason to do so. In my ideal world, everyone should be able to watch one of Abigail’s long compilation videos and not feel doubts.Abigail’s content is actually helpful in:* Dissuading people from having kids for trivial reasons* Helping actual parents head off medical issues.* In one NBC article about Abigail and Yuri, they write “Biggers-Stewart, who is now pregnant with her second child, described the list videos as “a powerful tool for self-advocacy.””* “I was totally shocked by all the things that could happen to you. And that’s even in today’s modern world, which is shocking with the amount of research and access that we have at our fingertips,” Biggers-Stewart said. “There’s so many different types of complications, and it can be really brutal on women. So I was like, this is empowering.”* Helping actual parents head off other parenting foibles* We had to learn the hard way to lock up the kitchen at night, restrict most foods to only certain parts of the house, permanently wear aprons, etc.* Basically: When these things happen (the vandalism, the food messes, etc.) I see it as my fault, not the kids’ fault* They’re prisoners in our home and when they’re young, they literally don’t know better; it’s up to us as parents to provide the equivalent of bumpers on the bowling alleys of their lives.The primary concern isn’t with anti-kid content, but “worst-case scenario” content in general that can create algorithmic loops that create phobias.What about friends/girlfriends who cite “the list” in conversations about having kids?* Have a logical conversation.* About actual risks* About equivalent risks they take in their everyday life, through their hobbies, etc.* Such as hiking, cosmetic surgery, eating out, etc.* If they still are afraid of having kids, then they probably shouldn’t have kidsAppendix: Longer Sampling of Abigail’s Reasons to Not Have KidsPregnancy and birth: medical risks and trauma* Severe post‑labor swelling of the vulva (“had balls between my legs”).* Uterus flipping inside out and being placed in a bucket (uterine inversion).* Severe tearing, including tears toward the anus and up toward the clitoris (“towards your bean”).* Episiotomy (“they cut to make the hole bigger”) and still having to push afterward.* Vaginal or uterine prolapse (“my vagina fell out” / holding her uterus in her hand; uterine prolapse needing to be pushed back in).* Retained or traumatized bladder/urethra causing urinary retention (bladder “shut down,” pee‑hole swelling shut, catheter for days to weeks).* Incarcerated uterus causing urinary obstruction and catheterization for two weeks.* Post‑birth inability to pee without elaborate “Subway sandwich” pad/ice/witch hazel/foam setup after every bathroom trip.* Pelvic floor damage: chronic incontinence, “never pee normally again,” needing to clench when sneezing, “neverending wipe,” stool control issues.* Massive blood clots after birth (basketball‑sized clot, near hemorrhage, transfusions).* Mastitis leading to sepsis and large clots; spouse literally sucking out infected milk and blood.* C‑section horror stories: adhesions, two‑hour surgery with every organ manipulated, awake without “loopy drugs,” drunk surgeon in another case, multiple layers and instruments (forceps, “bladder blade”) instead of the simple cut most people imagine.* Forceps deliveries (baby’s head clamped with metal instruments, higher risk of severe tears).* Vacuum‑assisted birth with no epidural, tearing “to my ass.”* Epidural issues: catheters left in the back, epidurals that can be “unplugged,” epidurals that fail entirely so pain is still extreme.* Pain of cervical dilation (and IUD insertion used as a reference point), with emphasis that nobody explains this upfront.* Cervix and uterus changes: permanent uterine enlargement, cervix dilation/effacement as unseen but excruciating changes.* Eating or handling placentas (and the idea of placentophagy being sold as healthy) being viscerally repulsive.Pregnancy complications and body changes* Detached retinas / blindness from pushing too hard in labor; cases of permanent severe visual loss and disability.* Pregnancy‑related eye trauma like subconjunctival hemorrhages (bloodshot eyes from pushing).* Pregnancy‑related cancers (choriocarcinoma) that can arise after normal pregnancy, ectopic pregnancy, molar pregnancy, or miscarriage.* High blood pressure disorders like preeclampsia (including grotesque swelling and “squishy gel hairbrush” legs), with inadequate research and answers.* Jaundiced newborns and the stress of their care (also used as a reminder of hidden complications).* Lithopedion (“stone baby”): calcified ectopic pregnancies carried for decades, sometimes discovered in old age.* Fetus‑in‑fetu / parasitic twins: one twin growing inside another’s body or skull; parasitic twin cases discovered in teens.* Multiple uteruses (uterus didelphys), including rare cases of simultaneous pregnancies in both, and the associated risk of double pregnancy.* Superfetation: getting pregnant again while already pregnant, leading to extra fetuses weeks apart.* Extreme multiples: triplets, quintuplets, and even the documented nonuplets (nine babies), with unmanageable risk and burden.* Uterus or placenta allergies and oddities (itchy uterus from amniotic fluid, mothers allergic to various pregnancy‑related substances).* New allergies developing after pregnancy (to antibiotics, adhesives, metals, pine nuts, dogs, insects, etc.), including a friend “allergic to her legs.”* Lactation‑related tumors and growths (pregnancy tumors / pyogenic granulomas on gums or elsewhere).* Chromhidrosis (colored sweat), including pregnant people turning toilet seats blue.* Extreme swelling of hands, feet, and noses; preeclampsia‑related edema; “pregnancy nose” growth and swelling.* Brain changes: measurable shrinkage in regions related to social cognition, with “pregnancy brain” symptoms like memory issues, poor focus, and enduring structural changes detectable years later.* Pregnancy rhinitis and sensory loss: severe congestion leading to loss of smell and taste; earlier pregnancy caused hearing loss; pregnancy stacking sensory deficits.* Postpartum hair loss to the point of partial balding even more than a year after birth.* Postpartum diastasis recti (ab separation) severe enough that a practitioner can press fingers between muscles and feel the aorta; associated back pain, constipation, and urine leakage.* Decorvain’s tenosynovitis (“mommy’s wrist”): tendon swelling from repetitive lifting of babies, laundry, groceries, etc., potentially requiring splints or surgery and causing lasting hand/wrist disability.* Loss of ability to burp (RCPD‑like symptoms) arising after pregnancies, sometimes reversing only after later pregnancies.* Permanent changes in teeth and bones: baby “sucking the calcium” out, teeth rotting or falling out, multiple root canals, bone density changes.* Toenails softening and falling off after birth, sometimes never growing back.* New allergies or sensitivities to tattoos, metals, adhesives after pregnancy that complicate future medical care.* Nasal, skin, or other pigment changes; white or lighter hair; other unexpected cosmetic shifts.* Long‑term depression and anxiety, often in line with maternal family history; fear of passing down the same nervous system and mood disorders.Breastfeeding and lactation horrors* Babies causing nipple trauma, including nipples turning black/white (ischemia), “dead” nipple tissue.* Babies literally sucking off part of a nipple; pieces ending up in the baby’s mouth and needing reattachment.* Nipple puncture wounds from baby teeth, leaving permanent holes.* Severe breastfeeding pain: clenching against anticipated pain at every latch, blood in milk, cracked nipples.* Ongoing leakage from breasts in public, constant fear of spontaneous milk letdown.* Milk “pregnancy tumors” in gums/teeth and pregnancy‑related gum growths while breastfeeding.* Breast pumps and breastfeeding schedules requiring waking every 2–3 hours regardless of who is feeding, destroying sleep.* Need to pump even when partner bottle‑feeds to maintain supply, so the birthing parent’s sleep is still fragmented.Neonatal and baby health issues* Babies born with teeth or extra teeth, including terrifying images of infant skulls full of stacked teeth.* Infants born with “boobs” and lactation (hormonal breast tissue in newborns), requiring parents to express milk from babies’ chests.* Newborn periods in baby girls, from maternal hormones, shocking parents who weren’t warned.* Babies swallowing their own meconium at birth and suffering severe respiratory distress.* Babies with no instinct to eat, crying for hours and needing forced feeding.* Babies forgetting to breathe during overwhelming emotions; breath‑holding spells that terrify caregivers.* Severe newborn jaundice requiring treatment and parental stress.* NICU stays for weeks or months, with enormous financial and emotional cost.Medical system and informed consent issues* Hidden information: lack of comprehensive sex/family‑planning education about what birth and postpartum are actually like.* Dismissive or negligent medical staff (e.g., nurse sending a woman home at 1 cm when she’s clearly in labor, then she delivers at home or en route).* OBs scolding patients for coughing with pneumonia during C‑section and stuffing organs back in without care, leaving disfiguring scars.* Drunk surgeon doing a C‑section on another patient and being fired later.* Multiple, painful postpartum pelvic exams without pain relief while the mother is unable to hold the baby.* Under‑researched conditions (e.g., rare lactation or vascular complications) with little scientific literature or explanation.* Framing: society romanticizing pregnancy and parenthood, omitting trauma, leading to feelings of personal failure when reality is hard.Financial burden* Hospital birth bills in the tens of thousands to nearly $50,000 for a single uncomplicated birth before insurance.* NICU bills for triplets without insurance running into hundreds of thousands per baby.* Charges such as $36,000 for the first 24 hours of life, $4,000 for skin‑to‑skin contact, $17,000 for a one‑day hospital room.* Ongoing annual childcare costs around $20,000 per child, adding up to $100,000–120,000 for ages 0–5.* Estimates of $237,000+ to raise a child to 18 (excluding college), plus another roughly $100,000 for college.* Formula costs of $38–50 per can that lasts only a few days, making infant feeding extremely expensive.* One mom’s yearly cost for three kids around $47,000.* Kids spending hundreds on in‑app purchases like Roblox Robux without permission.* Home destruction costs: multiple replacement TVs, remotes, front door handles, wall repair, and warped floors from leaks.Lifestyle costs: time, freedom, and autonomy* Loss of free time and personal days off (e.g., Sundays now consumed with children’s activities instead of sleeping in and seeing friends).* Constant need to “fill the days” with activities for kids; no spontaneous rest or leisure.* Child‑free lifestyle benefits: travel, expensive city living, pampering oneself, double income no kids (DINK) life.* Inability to travel light: car seats, diaper bags, etc., turning flights into logistics nightmares.* Need to manage diapers, feeding schedules, and baby entertainment on planes, plus anxiety about disturbing others.* Never being off‑duty, including caring for children while sick yourself.* Introverts and easily overstimulated people losing the quiet, solitary recovery time they rely on.* Having to cook three meals plus snacks daily, often separate bland food for kids, destroying the joy of cooking or eating spicy food.* Having to attend endless kids’ appointments and activities on top of work.* Permanent vigilance: always monitoring kids’ safety, bodily functions, and behaviors.Psychological and relationship impacts* Postnatal depression, psychosis, and long‑term mental health crises leading some parents to vow never to repeat pregnancy.* Pregnancy hormones causing intense, often irrational hatred or intolerance toward partners (“I hated my husband while I was pregnant”).* Strain on relationships: changed dynamics with partners, loss of sense of self, resentment.* Overstimulation from hearing “Mom” hundreds of times per day (e.g., 234 “Mom”s in 13 hours, ~85,000 per year).* Guilt and shame from not living up to romanticized ideals of motherhood.* People‑pleasing parents being unable to cope with public tantrums, plane screams, or feeling like they are “ruining” others’ experiences.* Loss of identity, body image issues, and grief over the pre‑baby self and lifestyle.Children’s bodily fluids and hygiene issues* Endless poop incidents: blowouts before weddings, on floors, in pools, on parents’ clothes, on hospital staff.* Toddlers wiping feces down every stair or making “art” on walls with urine or feces.* Dogs eating children’s feces from the yard or house.* Kids peeing in conditioners, dog bowls, carpets, dishwashers, and elsewhere, contaminating everyday objects.* Persistent smells: rancid pee in vents, years‑long odor issues preventing home resale.* Vomit parties: children intentionally drinking water to induce vomiting throughout the house.* Chronic vomiting and diarrhea episodes parents must clean while sleep‑deprived.Household destruction and mess* Children destroying multiple TVs, remotes, and door hardware within a year.* Kids hammering holes in walls, pulling off door handles, eating drywall, and requiring constant repainting and patching.* Paint disasters: kids smearing house paint over furniture, floors, and even entire condos; black paint on everything.* Flour, eggs, baby powder, and other cooking ingredients dumped all over carpets and floors, turning into intractable sludge.* Baby powder explosions requiring strong vacuums and toothbrushes to clean.* Stickers covering TVs, leaving permanent sticky residue that collects dirt.* Syrup “cup holders” carved into couches; couch destruction.* Flooded houses from kids playing with sinks or fridges; warped floors, broken ice makers.* Kids eating walls and needing corner protectors to stop them from biting again.* Constant car‑seat filth: crumbs, poop, and stains that never fully clean out.Physical danger from kids’ behavior* Toddlers head‑butting parents and causing concussions, black eyes, migraines, and memory loss.* Kids biting adults hard enough to cause infections requiring antibiotics; “second most dangerous bite.”* Human bites leading to non‑healing wounds and risk of limb loss.* Babies scratching mothers’ insides during birth with fully grown fingernails, causing internal stitches.* Kids pulling fridge water/ice dispensers nonstop, causing water damage and hazards.* Children nearly drowning caregivers (roughhousing in pools) without understanding the danger.* Kids dropping heavy objects, throwing iPads into ponds, or otherwise causing injuries and expensive losses.* Baby skulls full of developing teeth, plus parents needing to forcibly remove loose teeth in painful ways.Sleep deprivation and constant noise* Night terrors: toddlers screaming with eyes open for hours while asleep, terrifying parents.* Colicky babies crying for hours despite parents’ efforts; parents “just surviving.”* Babies needing to be bounced on exercise balls for hours every night.* Children constantly yelling “Mommy” or screaming; continuous audio overstimulation.* Sleep deprivation from feeding schedules, night wakings, and frequent illnesses.* Parents unable to shower or change clothes for days; living in the same clothes while caring for infants.Social, cultural, and structural reasons* Unaffordable, inaccessible childcare systems; poor parental leave; lack of social support for parents, especially in the U.S.* Pressure from family (e.g., religious households, Thanksgiving interrogations) to marry and have kids despite personal ambivalence.* Romanticization of pregnancy and motherhood in media, hiding risks and hardships.* Unsolicited advice and criticism directed at both child‑free people and parents (“you’ll change your mind,” breastfeeding debates, etc.).* Fear of being responsible for a screaming child on a plane and being judged by strangers.* Concern about passing on generational trauma, mental illness, or unhealthy patterns.Personal lifestyle and preference reasons* Love of travel, concerts, gaming, hobbies (miniatures, comics, snakes, bones) that would be curtailed by kids.* Desire to keep a home wired with cables, gamer setups, and fragile collectibles without child‑proofing or sticky fingers.* Disinterest in revisiting schoolwork and homework via children.* Sensory issues and low tolerance for crying or touch, incompatible with early parenting demands.* Preference for quiet, orderly homes and uncluttered floors.* Desire to remain lazy, spontaneous, and self‑oriented without 24/7 caregiving work.* Desire to be “rich auntie” rather than parent; using resources for self, travel, or pets.* Fear of losing sexual freedom, nudity at home, or other adult lifestyle choices.Episode Transcript[00:00:00] Malcolm Collins: Hello, everyone. I’m excited to be here with you today. Today, Simone has kept whatever this topic is going to be a secret from me all day because she wanted to see my reaction for, like, a day and a half at this point.[00:00:10] So what is it, Simone? What, what is it that you wanted to go over?[00:00:15] Simone Collins: What if I told you that there is, there’s a system for convincing women to not have children that men don’t know about because they don’t consume girly content, and it’s just floating around on the internet becoming quite influential and pervasive, changing people’s lives.[00:00:34] And- I,[00:00:34] Malcolm Collins: it sounds like the usual bad guys up to their usual stuff, but why don’t I know about this? Do I not know about this? Do you know about[00:00:41] Simone Collins: the girl with the list?[00:00:44] Malcolm Collins: I have never heard about the girl with the list.[00:00:46] Simone Collins: She’s like Batman. She’s summoned. So there are two types of videos on which you might look to the comments and you’ll see, “Where’s the girl with the list?”[00:00:55] And she gets summoned. She will show up or be summoned on super cute videos of babies or toddlers, or on things going- What? ... absolutely horrible with pregnancy, with delivery, with breastfeeding, with raising toddlers. Because what the girl with the list does is provide you with a virtual form of birth control by taking any cute video you see and just reminding you how horrible it is to be pregnant, to have kids, and to become a k- a parent.[00:01:25] So- Wait,[00:01:25] Malcolm Collins: really? Is she a mom? For[00:01:27] Simone Collins: real. What’s her[00:01:27] Malcolm Collins: backstory?[00:01:28] Simone Collins: She’s n- no, yeah, yeah. I, I will tell you. There are actually, Malcolm, there are actually two girls with a list. One calls herself the OG girl with a list, but she has just, just completely disappeared from the internet. And then the second is who I’ll mostly focus on today.[00:01:43] She’s named Abigail Porter. She goes by Zoomie. Okay. She has 1.6 million followers on TikTok, and she’s famous for curing baby fever by creating abundant shorts on pregnancy and delivery and body horror related to it, basically. A plus frustrating experiences that parents have while they attempt to raise kids.[00:02:03] And even I not being particularly interested in cute baby photos or b- pregnancy body horror, ‘cause I live it I have just this week heard of her twice. I- in just my random girly content that I follow on Instagram[00:02:19] Malcolm Collins: You ... Wait, so you just have randomly seen it. Can you describe the[00:02:22] Simone Collins: instances?[00:02:22] Yeah. Like, in the, the most recent video I, where I was like, “Okay, I’ve gotta do an episode on this,” just this week I was watching a video where a woman is, just said, “She changed my life. I literally owe her everything,” she said. And this was in a video about, let’s see, what was the video about? I’m linking to all this in my show notes.[00:02:39] It was called about The Real Dangers of Trad Wife, Trad Wife Content, Nine Kids and Counting. I mean, you know, I see this stuff and I’m like, “I have to click on it.” Mm-hmm. I have to know why apparently it’s so bad to be, to be a mother. So yeah- ... I, she literally changed my life. Okay, like, I needed to find out who this was.[00:02:57] And also, I’ve heard, there are lots of people in the Base Camp network who are dating young men, who would like to find a wife, who would like to have kids, and I’m hearing more and more from young men that, like, the, the, the women they are dating are like, “Well, I, I never wanna become a parent. Like, I don’t, I don’t wanna be a parent.”[00:03:13] Malcolm Collins: I know. Yeah. Well, the, the psyop, you, you’ve got to groom your wife. Liefleit said it best. Actually, I think we said that first, and then she copied it from us, but I like that she, she’s boarding[00:03:22] Simone Collins: that point. Maybe. I don’t, I don’t care who said it first. Look, you gotta do it.[00:03:25][00:03:34] Simone Collins: And, and that’s, we’re gonna talk about this at the end, basically how to deal with this.[00:03:37] But I, if, to first address the problem, be you a woman who is being subject to this, for lack of a better word, propaganda,[00:03:46] Malcolm Collins: Brainwashing ...[00:03:46] Simone Collins: brainwashing. Or if you’re a young man who’s met an amazing young woman who you think would actually enjoy being a parent, but who’s terrified of it because of this content, we, we need to-[00:03:58] Malcolm Collins: Wait, so to [00:04:00] clarify, this woman felt that she had had, like, her life saved by the girl with the list?[00:04:06] Simone Collins: Yes. So the, the YouTuber that I’m talking about I think probably b- ga- based on the fact that she said, “I literally owe her everything,” i- in my show notes, I’ll send them to you I link to the exact clip where she says this, it, it very much insinuates that she plans on not having kids because of Abigail Porter’s content.[00:04:24] But, okay, just to be clear, so the, sort of background. The first person to do this was this other TikTok creator called Uni. And then eventually, this, this creator created a list, also linked, too, called U- Uni’s Pros and Cons of Having Children. And it has, like, 200 and something cons, and then like, 30 pros or something, and the pros aren’t even, like- That good?[00:04:48] things that... Yeah, like, what do you even... No, that’s not, that’s not why we have kids. And, and so let’s just dive right into it. We[00:04:55] Malcolm Collins: will replace you. That’s our goal. Come on, that’s, that’s what this is all about, winning- Yeah ... the civilizational game. Basically- And they, they don’t get that. They never would get that.[00:05:02] But, yeah, okay, c- continue.[00:05:04] Simone Collins: Yeah. I’ve, I’ve watched over four hours of compilations of-[00:05:09] Malcolm Collins: Over four hours- Yes ... you... Simone.[00:05:12] Simone Collins: Of Abigail Porter’s content.[00:05:14] I’ve gone, I mean, she created on YouTube this compilation of a certain number of years’ worth of her content. I’ve, I’ve gone from watching her having a short pixie cut to a shaved head to hair down to here.[00:05:27] Like, it’s, she’s been doing this for a long time. I think you’d actually find her very attractive. She’s very much your type. Oh, gosh ...[00:05:34] Malcolm Collins: and[00:05:34] Simone Collins: she’s a ginge. She’s very beautiful, so that, that helps. And she... They’re great. I mean, it, a lot of it’s humor. A lot of it’s like America’s Hu- Funniest Home Videos, ‘cause I mean, she’s, she’s being tagged on viral content, and her job basically is to, like, open her phone every mor- I mean, this isn’t obviously her only work, but what she’ll do is probably, presumably, open her phone every morning, see where she’s tagged on TikTok, and then take those clips and make her own little commentary on them and publish them out to her crowd, and then her, her followers.[00:06:00] So her- She’s actually- Wait, her[00:06:01] Malcolm Collins: name is Abigail Porter, you said?[00:06:04] Simone Collins: But she goes by Zumi. Yeah.[00:06:06] Malcolm Collins: Okay. I’ll, I’ll look her up to see if I agree with your assessment.[00:06:09] Simone Collins: Y- no, you’ll find her so cute.[00:06:10] This is her recent Los Angeles profile. So this is what she looks like today with longer hair.[00:06:15] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, she’s cute. She’s my type, for sure.[00:06:17] Simone Collins: Yeah, absolutely.[00:06:18] Malcolm Collins: I mean- ... she looks too old now. I, I wouldn’t date her like- She’s-[00:06:21] in real life[00:06:22] Simone Collins: with what she looks like today ... she looks very young. Oh, get over yourself, Malcolm. Anyway I think she’s very pretty. But also that doesn’t really matter. And she has a boyfriend and they’re very happy. They’re very happy dinks. But let’s go to[00:06:31] Malcolm Collins: your- Oh my God, her Substack profile, Reproductive Rights Advocate Reminding You To Take Your Birth Control.[00:06:36] That’s what she does. Also known as the girl with a list. Okay, continue.[00:06:38] Simone Collins: The girl with a list. So in terms of how the content that she, she presents that will dissuade young women old women, a- any woman from- Yeah ... from wanting to have babies is, is sort of, I’ll, I’ll start with some highlights.[00:06:52] Let’s start with s- some highlights, okay? ‘Cause, and these are, like, original clips. She, these are women who’ve gone through this. They’re, this is actual firsthand video footage. This isn’t stuff that’s made up, ‘cause you can literally see it. There’s one where a, a woman, a woman’s insides needed stitches after her baby scratched her from the inside on the way out, ‘cause it had its fingernails grew in, and they do that.[00:07:11] A woman whose baby began to choke on her nipple, and then it just literally fell off because it was so infected at that point from mastitis and other issues. A woman who grew a tumor on her lip the size of her pinky while she was pregnant, because one of the things that can happen when you’re pregnant is to grow benign tunors, tumors.[00:07:26] Uh-huh. A woman who, Oh, well, of course, l- women who’ve lost their hair, their teeth, all their eyelashes. A woman who developed a mutation during pregnancy that made her insensitive to pain meds who had to endure a C-section with no medication. She just eventually passed out from the, from the pain. There’s a woman who went deaf after her kid kissed her on the ear causing what’s called the kiss of death.[00:07:48] And I had to look this up. This is actually a thing. It’s, it’s a cochlear ear kiss injury also known as Reader’s Ear Kiss Syndrome, REKS. Yeah. So, like, don’t let your... We need to, like, not let the kids close to our ears [00:08:00] anymore. There’s a woman whose retina’s detached because she was pushing so hard in labor.[00:08:03] Women whose bodies have become both temporarily and permanently deformed or uglified. We’re talking swollen hands and feet, s- legs, ver- varicose veins That this is a[00:08:11] Malcolm Collins: worth it for a human life. Anybody[00:08:14] Simone Collins: would take these injuries- Popped blood vessels in the eyes ... for their child. I had the popped blood vessels in the eyes.[00:08:18] Remember that time where I had the blood vessels on the podcast? Oh, yeah, you did. I[00:08:20] Malcolm Collins: seem to think that was[00:08:20] Simone Collins: maybe... I know, yeah, and the varicose veins, that’s real.[00:08:22] Malcolm Collins: But every woman has tough pregnancies from what I hear these days. You know, almost... th- I, I occasionally hear of really easy ones, but generally speaking, pregnancies are hard today.[00:08:31] And you know,[00:08:32] Simone Collins: it’s expected to be hard. Today? I think pregnancies have always had their things. Yeah,[00:08:35] Malcolm Collins: they used to be a lot harder. Did you know that on average, women lost one tooth per pregnancy?[00:08:39] Simone Collins: I, I think that’s apocryphal.[00:08:41] Speaker: So I decided to research to see if this is, , an apocryphal old wives’ tale. , First of all, this is way more common a historic story than I thought. , There are proverbs that mean something like, “Gain a child, lose a tooth,” in Danish, in German, in Scandinavian, in Russian, and in Japanese. , And there have been, , studies on this to see if this is accurate.[00:09:07] , There was a landmark 1998 study in The Lancet. There was a large U.S. study by researcher Stephen Russell. , There was , a twin study on this. , And basically what everything found is that it is kind of in-- right. It’s basically right. , It’s not exactly one child, one tooth, , but it’s more children, fewer teeth.[00:09:28] , And the reason for this is, , pregnancy hormones make gums much more reactive to plaque. This causes pr-pregnancy gingivitis in a large percentage of women, often cited as thirty to seventy-five percent or higher. , And repeated episodes of gingivitis across multiple pregnancies can lead to, , deeper infections which lead to the losing of teeth.[00:09:50] , But w-w-- I had no idea. Th-this is wild[00:09:53] Simone Collins: But ye- yeah, I mean, you know, if you’re, if you’re[00:09:56] Malcolm Collins: already- You’re the one who told me.[00:09:57] Simone Collins: No, I didn’t. I never said that. I think that was someone else. Yeah, you[00:09:59] Malcolm Collins: did.[00:09:59] Simone Collins: I think you came home from Natal Con with that but I’m, I’m not sure. But anyway, the... in her content, there are basically four themes. There’s relatively unusual medical conditions from pregnancy and lactation, like uterine prolapse, and apparently when that happens, by the way, you know what you’re supposed to do to fix it?[00:10:15] Malcolm Collins: What?[00:10:16] Simone Collins: Shove it back in. You’re supposed to, you’re supposed to just push it back in.[00:10:20] Malcolm Collins: Okay.[00:10:21] Simone Collins: Which, I mean, it makes sense. But it seems very uncomfortable. So that, there’s that. And, you know, there are various forms of body horror. Then also just the expenses of labor and delivery, you know, just how ridiculous it is.[00:10:31] And when people go through their itemized bills, that’s an easy thing to go viral on TikTok.[00:10:35] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, that’s a, that’s a more, yeah. But with a lot of this stuff, it’s like, “This is why you shouldn’t drive,” and it’s just a bunch of pictures of people who got killed in car accidents. And it’s like-[00:10:42] Simone Collins: Yeah, no, one...[00:10:43] And I’m gonna talk about that, yeah. There’s also poop and pee humor, or, well, and horror, of course. And then super common, like, parenting, pregnancy, and postpartum stuff, like fussy babies who are only calm when they’re bounced, or the rectus abdominis being separated in pregnancy, or swelling, or using an Otriede to suck snot out of a baby’s nose.[00:11:03] Like, that’s terrifying or something. Or-[00:11:05] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, that’s something that we have to do with a lot of our kids.[00:11:08] Simone Collins: Yeah, like every parent has an Otriede. Like, would you rather have your baby screaming in pain, or y- like, suck out the snot with a tube? There’s a filter. There’s a filter. Or having strangers on the internet jump down your throat just ‘cause you mentioned the word breastfeeding in a post online, or kids making messes around the h- the house and, like, we’re talking the flooding, the vandalism.[00:11:27] A lot of the stuff that she posts that’s, like, kids ruining houses or making big messes is all stuff, honestly, that’s the parents’ fault. Like, you have to learn the hard way to, like, childproof your home, and all of these are, they’re results of not proper childproofing. So a lot of this is actually kind of helpful content, ‘cause it’s like, “Oh, this is something to head off.”[00:11:46] But the reason why this is damaging and not just funny or informative is that- There’s, there, like, it just goes for, like, the, the most common psychological trips your, and tr- sorry, tricks that, that will get you. You know, there’s [00:12:00] one, like, availability heuristic that Yuri and Abigail with these lists are, are making the hazards of parenting and pregnancy look extremely visible and available in people’s minds.[00:12:12] They’re just, like, super top of mind. And it’s, it, it’s gonna make people only think about the negative. Whereas it’s extremely easy to do exactly the same thing Abigail does with other life choices. And that includes especially life choices of people who choose not to have kids. Like, I think you and I have, we follow this, this, basically the equivalent of this genre with hiking- Mm-hmm[00:12:33] and going outdoors with, like, Mr. Ball and- Oh my God,[00:12:35] Malcolm Collins: yes. Mr. Ball and, and everything like that. Exactly. I genuinely think every time I go to the woods, everyone’s gonna disappear.[00:12:39] Simone Collins: I know. I know. But[00:12:41] Malcolm Collins: like- 411, Lore Lodge. Exactly. It’s, like, one of my core categories of content.[00:12:45] Simone Collins: Yeah, so, like, Abigail and Yuri, the girls with the lists, they are that, but for, for pregnancy.[00:12:51] So yeah, and there’s also cosmetic surgery. I, that’s another version of this genre that I love. Like, Wani is a creator whose, whose content I love on this front, ‘cause he specifically covers plastic surgery that goes super wrong in China. Mm ... there’s buying homes. I don’t know if you know, there’s this whole genre of home inspectors uploading their videos.[00:13:09] And they’ll just go through new constructed houses, or just any house, and be like, “Oh, look, this is broken. Oh, like, toilet’s not hanged right.”[00:13:15] Malcolm Collins: Well, actually, you have got me into something interesting here. I would assume, like, just hearing a lot of this to begin with, is that this is a lot of women who have secretly kind of want babies.[00:13:25] They secretly know that their lives will be incomplete without[00:13:28] Simone Collins: them. Well, the point is they ac- no, they have baby fever. The, the[00:13:31] Malcolm Collins: point is- And they, they want to find some way to suppress it or make their terrible life decisions feel justified,[00:13:40] Simone Collins: or- No, no, no. That, that is not, that is not a what if. That is a literally that’s what’s happening.[00:13:43] Malcolm Collins: No, no, no, no, no. Well, you, you, you, you say[00:13:46] Simone Collins: that, right? Her videos often go... Like, here’s the format she uses, ‘cause again, I’ve watched over four hours of these is cute baby, cute baby video that went viral on TikTok, and then her being like, “Nuh-uh-uh, Zumi here to provide you with your online birth control to stop you or cure your baby fever.”[00:14:00] And like, that’s the whole thing. But- And then she goes into the horror story ...[00:14:02] Malcolm Collins: the, the point I’m making is- Okay ... I could have that impression, and, and it, it is what I would jump to.[00:14:09] Simone Collins: Okay.[00:14:10] Malcolm Collins: But I consume a very similar form of content, and I clearly don’t consume it for that reason. Mm-hmm. I do not consume Mr.[00:14:20] Ballen because I secretly want to jump out of airplanes or-[00:14:24] Simone Collins: Oh, ‘cause you, you crave the... You wanna go backpacking along the[00:14:28] Malcolm Collins: Appalachian Trail. Or become a caver. There, there’s actually... B- because the caving videos are, like, one of my videos that, that I watch a lot of. If[00:14:35] Simone Collins: any of you cave, what? Stop. Stop.[00:14:38] Malcolm Collins: I have never in my entire life seen a tiny hole and felt an urge to shove myself as deep as I can in the tiny hole.[00:14:48] There[00:14:49] Simone Collins: is a- Do you think it’s a fetish, actually? Wait, hold on. When you put it that way.[00:14:52] Malcolm Collins: I c- is it a fetish? Is caving a fetish? I, like, can’t imagine a real human emotion that would lead you to want to do that.[00:14:59] Simone Collins: Well, no. But, like... So I, I... Y- you can also look at those those vacuum bags that people use for sexy times.[00:15:05] And I’m like, okay, well, I can’t imagine myself doing that. I, I just now that you put it that way, I’m like, “Oh.” That could be it. Anyway, keep going. ‘Cause also they’re wet a lot of... Oh, no. Sorry,[00:15:16] Malcolm Collins: Oh, and the horrible ways you die when caving.[00:15:18] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:15:18] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yep ... and this is the thing. It’s not that I don’t like caves.[00:15:20] Like, I’ve been spelunking to, like, big, nice mapped caves to see a different environment. I have found- Yeah ... that to be a very pleasant and fun experience. Have you,[00:15:29] Simone Collins: have you scuba, have you scuba’d in caves?[00:15:31] Malcolm Collins: I have, I have cave di- d- dived, done cave dives before. You have dived. Which is a very dangerous form of diving.[00:15:37] But-[00:15:37] Simone Collins: That is super dangerous diving ... we, I- Oh my God, I remember, like, snorkeling in the cenotes in the Yucatan and watching, like, I remember watching one guy go down with two extra tanks, and then I was there for, like, two or three hours and he didn’t come out, and I’m like, “Sir.”[00:15:55] Malcolm Collins: But when I have been cave diving, when I have been [00:16:00] spelunking, when people die in these things, at least the videos that I watch, it’s always, “And then they saw a two-foot hole and shoved themselves in it.”[00:16:09] Yeah,[00:16:09] Simone Collins: it’s[00:16:09] Malcolm Collins: like- Like a fricking pelican or some- what, what’s the bird that sticks his head in the sand? Flamingo.[00:16:14] An[00:16:14] Simone Collins: ostrich?[00:16:15] Speaker 2: A man was exploring the Nutty Putty Cave in 2009, and he wanted to go through one of the tightest stretches called the Birth Canal.[00:16:24] Simone Collins: I don’t actually think ostriches- Ostrich,[00:16:25] Malcolm Collins: yeah ...[00:16:26] Simone Collins: they’re, they apocryphy, apoc- apocryphally do that. They don’t actually do that, I think.[00:16:30] This time Sona is right. , And crazily, this apocryphal story goes back to Pliny the Elder[00:16:36] Malcolm Collins: Well, it’s not an apocryphy that idiots in Utah do this all the time.[00:16:41] ... There’s nothing interesting you’re going to see in this little hole. You ding idiot.[00:16:46] Simone Collins: It’s dark. It’s gonna look dark, and there will be darkness.[00:16:50] Malcolm Collins: Oh. You’re not gonna find some what... Like, get your f*****g head out. But the thing is- ... is I have to ask myself, how many of the women watching this are trying to suppress the instinct, trying to cure FOMO?[00:17:03] How many of the women who are watching this are like me? And, and then there’s the other category- Schadenfreude.[00:17:09] Simone Collins: I think there, there’s a lot of schadenfreude for, like, DINK couples. You, you will enjoy your DINK lifestyle even if you never want kids even more if you’re just watching[00:17:19] Malcolm Collins: people who chose- Yeah, but I have another type of schadenfreude that I watch videos all the time for, which could be another desire for this.[00:17:25] It could be cucking-[00:17:25] Simone Collins: Okay. Okay ...[00:17:26] Malcolm Collins: you here.[00:17:27] Simone Collins: Go on[00:17:27] Malcolm Collins: I love watching incredibly misogynistic red pill content about- ... terrible experiences men have had dating and being married. You know, like MGTOW content and stuff like that. Like that- Okay ... Sandman on it, like, I’ve watched his videos, you know, pushing, like, MGTOW lifestyles and stuff.[00:17:42] He’s not even that bad. Oh,[00:17:43] Simone Collins: but Sandman’s awesome. No, don’t come for Sandman.[00:17:45] Malcolm Collins: But there’s other, there’s a whole category, and we, we actually utilize it in our title cards, where it is sad woman who made a mistake. But this- Are[00:17:53] Simone Collins: we doing that for this? No, I, I think I should just use a normal picture of Abigail ‘[00:17:57] Malcolm Collins: cause she’s pretty.[00:17:58] This category of video I watch not to, like, give myself like, n- a lack of FOMO around dating, but because I like to hear how much better I did in the dating market than all of these people- Uh-huh ... and about their terrible lives compared to just finding a good woman and treating her well, right? Like, you, you, you hear the stories, you hear I mean, it’s as obvious between the lines as it is when you have one of those women out there screeching about why the fifth guy didn’t like them just because X, Y, and Z, totally insane things.[00:18:30] And on a lot of these, you know,[00:18:32] Simone Collins: in- Oh, have you heard the new thing on X that’s trending is hiplets? Have you heard about the hiplet controversy?[00:18:37] Malcolm Collins: What, what is this?[00:18:39] Simone Collins: I guess some women’s hips kind of divot inward above- Okay ... the hip bone. And some men are like, “I don’t, I’m just not into that.[00:18:46] Like, I don’t wanna date women with hiplets.” And women are like, “How dare you? I can’t control my morphology.[00:18:52] That’s how I’m born.” And men are like, “Oh, really? ‘Cause you didn’t have that reaction when I was under six feet and you wouldn’t talk to me.” So there’s a lot of smugness going on online. But yeah, that’s also a thing.[00:19:03] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Oh, weird. Weird. Hiplet. Do I find it attr- unattractive? I, I can’t even imagine what they’re talking about. Hold on. Let me think. D- I’ll, I’ll make a judgment on hiplet. Just Google hiplet. Yeah. Or hip[00:19:10] Simone Collins: divot. I’m just sending you an X post.[00:19:12] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, you gotta send me an X post. This is not, it’s not coming through, so.[00:19:15] Simone Collins: It’s, it’s, it’s obscure enough where... But anyway, this is one of the... It’s been trending on X, like, all weekend. It’s on WhatsApp.[00:19:21] Malcolm Collins: Ew.[00:19:22] Simone Collins: Oh, wow. So that was a reaction[00:19:25] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, that is not good-looking.[00:19:28] Simone Collins: Okay. I see- ... where you stand on this.[00:19:33] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, you, you definitely don’t have those, I’ll tell you that.[00:19:35] Simone Collins: No, I don’t. I don’t. Where, w- wow. Okay. I like your theory, though. I, I think that there’s the, I think her content does really well because it does fit a bunch of different interests, right?[00:19:47] There’s the shodan fraud, there’s the smug my life is so good feeling. There’s the I really want a baby, no, I, I don’t want a baby ‘cause I’m an independent woman who’s never gonna have a baby, or I can’t have a baby ‘cause I can’t find a [00:20:00] good guy. So this, all of this, all of this can be satisfied by Girl With a List posts.[00:20:05] And it, and we have all these other genres that make us very happy with our lives. I love to watch the hiking videos. I love to watch the cosmetic surgery gone wrong videos. I love to watch the buying home gone wrong videos. There’s also people who do, like, eating out at restaurants, like all the stuff that’s going on behind the scenes you don’t wanna know about.[00:20:23] And so you can- Oh, God. Disgusting ... you can effectively, yeah. Are[00:20:25] Malcolm Collins: you glad we don’t eat out?[00:20:26] Simone Collins: Very, actually. The, you, you can basically, though, my point being, you, you can develop an aversion to, or even a phobia of pretty much anything by giving yourself to sufficient exposure to its hazards, just because it becomes so, so available in, in your, your brain.[00:20:44] And this genre can be a form of opt-in brainwashing. Though, in a worse case scenario, they could be a form of unintentional algorithmically led brainwashing. Mm. And especially given the way that TikTok works, th- they, you, you get into it, you comment on this positively at one point, and you end up getting in this engagement loop with this kind of content and just seeing more and more of it, even if you didn’t necessarily want to brainwash yourself into being afraid of having a baby.[00:21:14] Then there’s also[00:21:15] Malcolm Collins: just- Well, yeah, I didn’t, I didn’t w- mean to become brainwashed of going into American national parks. But you watch enough, you know, Lore Lodge, 411, Mr. Ballen- ... and you’re just like and I’ve had panic moments because of that. Like, when we’re playing with our kids in the woods and one of them- Yeah[00:21:30] decides he’s gonna go home without- Yeah ... telling me.[00:21:33] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:21:33] Malcolm Collins: And I’m running around screaming because-[00:21:36] Simone Collins: Because that’s always, always with the kid ones. It’s like, well, the kid was just with us one moment, we’re all walking down the trail, and then the next moment they’re gone and we never heard from them again.[00:21:43] Yeah. Like, that’s always the way it goes. The kid was right there. The kid was right there. Then they, they put up this massive search party. I don’t, if Mr. Ballen got a dollar for every time he said this massive search party, he’d be, he’d be a millionaire.[00:21:58] Malcolm Collins: I haven’t watched much Mr. Ballen in a couple years, to be honest.[00:22:01] Simone Collins: I had to stop watching his content because I came across one video where a baby got hurt and, you know, I can’t handle it.[00:22:07] Malcolm Collins: Oh. Well, I, I think he sort of ran out of good mysteries, though, I’m gonna be honest.[00:22:10] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It was like, it got, it got to, like, very,[00:22:12] Malcolm Collins: There’s always-[00:22:13] Simone Collins: He was, he had to start digging into crime reporting, and that’s where it just gets really depressing, instead of like, ooh, what happened in the- Ah, National Park aliens and[00:22:20] Malcolm Collins: Bigfoot[00:22:20] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:22:20] Like if[00:22:20] Malcolm Collins: you, if you ever have your mystery phase where you like crime mysteries, what you’ll realize is you’ll kind of go through all the good ones in about a year and a half. And there’s only- I,[00:22:31] Simone Collins: it’s a way... We had a great run, Malcolm. It was, it was beautiful. I remember-[00:22:34] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And then it’s just like- All the trips that the, the stressful trips[00:22:36] rehashing or minor updates or new, new theories, and at that point. It’s the same with good conspiracy theories. There’s only so many, and then you[00:22:43] Simone Collins: run out it, it, everything with this genre. Plastic surgery that’s botched. All, all of the snark, all of the fundie snark, we went through that so fast.[00:22:50] There’s onl- only so many very public fundie families that people can make fun of. Oh-[00:22:55] Malcolm Collins: Yeah ...[00:22:55] Simone Collins: Harry and Meghan snark. I follow most of the major channels. I just, in, I...[00:23:00] Malcolm Collins: I,[00:23:00] Simone Collins: I was so into- They can only do so many bad things, you know? ... Warhammer[00:23:02] Malcolm Collins: lore for a while.[00:23:03] Simone Collins: Oh, yeah, yeah,[00:23:04] Malcolm Collins: yeah. And then I just knew all the Warhammer lore-[00:23:06] and there was nothing more to learn[00:23:09] Simone Collins: Ah, so you just started developing your own religion that’s very Warhammer inspired. Oh, what are we gonna name one of our kids Mechanicus? Oh, you were thinking Crypteia Mechanicus.[00:23:17] Malcolm Collins: Crypteia Mechanicus, our, our next daughter, yeah.[00:23:22] Simone Collins: Okay. All right. Anyway.[00:23:24] Malcolm Collins: It’s[00:23:24] Simone Collins: a beautiful[00:23:24] Malcolm Collins: name- Let’s get on[00:23:25] Simone. It’s a beautiful name.[00:23:27] Simone Collins: Beautiful name, beautiful name. I, w- I wanna get back to the point of the, so there’s one, availability heuristic. There’s also loss aversion, and it’s just important to remind you that, you don’t need to be reminded, but people listening may not be aware that humans are generally way more concerned about losses than gains.[00:23:46] They, they generally weigh potential losses about 1.5 to 2.5 times as much as equally sized gains. So like The, all this stuff isn’t just like, “Oh, okay, well I’m gonna knock [00:24:00] down my interest in pregnancy by one.” No, it’s gonna be by two, even though, you know, other things will only... The, the viral kid video that’s so cute is only gonna knock up your interest one.[00:24:10] So, Abigail is more than canceling out any baby fever that she sparks or that is sparked by the viral baby videos that she’s sent when, in where people summon her. Wait, wait,[00:24:20] Malcolm Collins: does she really? Is this, like, true or...?[00:24:22] Simone Collins: Well, I’m, I’m talking about how loss aversion works in general.[00:24:25] Malcolm Collins: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.[00:24:27] Okay, continue.[00:24:27] Simone Collins: Right? Because, you know, take, take, you know, one token. You have a chance of winning one token or not losing two and a half tokens. Or, sorry not losing two tokens. People are two and a half more times, whatever. You know what I’m talking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I link to a bunch of this research in my show notes.[00:24:43] You can go read about it if you want. Well, I mean,[00:24:43] Malcolm Collins: she’s helping us. She’s clearing out the gene pool for our kids.[00:24:47] Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, look, if I- spoiler alert, but in the end, I, I think she’s doing amazing work, and I think she’s very ethical, and I like her a lot, so. It’s not just a parasocial relationship. I think she’s doing good work, but we’ll get to that.[00:24:58] But anyway, this means that people are, are, are extra, extra influenced against this. And it’s, it’s kind of even worse than that because both Abigail and Yuri can’t seem to even wrap their heads around, like, the, the rewards of parenting at all. Abigail’s most commonly cited argument is kids are cute.[00:25:16] Whereas Y- Yuri’s list at the, at the end of it she has her, like, whatever, 30 pros after 200 and something, I think over 250 cons. They include child and tax return benefits and tiny everything, which Like first, the tax return benefits are like very, very little considering the costs of children.[00:25:38] Quote, “You cannot get drafted while pregnant,” end quote. So there’s that. You can’t bribe them with candy. Or sorry, you can bribe with them with candy. It was one of her pros, but you and I both know that you can’t.[00:25:49] Malcolm Collins: You can’t. With a toddler. No, we... Actually, one of our kids hates candy. We can threaten him with candy.[00:25:50] “Eat your candy.” “No.” No. Literally. Literally. I should try to, I’ll try[00:25:50] Simone Collins: to film him. Try to give him candy tonight. Yes, for this episode so people can see we’re not messing[00:25:51] Malcolm Collins: with[00:26:05] them.[00:26:05] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah. I’ll get proof. I need to hold up like the day’s newspaper to show it’s real. And also, if you raise them right, people will praise you for it, which is so crazy. Like, that’s... To, to think that you would wanna raise kids right to get praise for it by other people. Yeah, yeah, they’re just like th- these people are very different.[00:26:25] But[00:26:25] Malcolm Collins: they have no external reality, no civilizational stake, no plan for the future of humanity. It is literally just about how does this make me feel-[00:26:36] Simone Collins: Yeah, or[00:26:36] Malcolm Collins: how does it make you- ... and how[00:26:37] Simone Collins: does[00:26:37] Malcolm Collins: it make other people treat me?[00:26:38] Simone Collins: Tiny human[00:26:38] Malcolm Collins: being. They have no larger civilizational framework, right? Like, no sense of purpose really.[00:26:44] Yeah. It’s just autopilot really.[00:26:46] Simone Collins: It’s gnarly, yeah. So I think, like, the, the big thing here is that I think this is part of a larger theme of why mental health is plummeting, which is people are way too in their heads and overthinking things. And I think Abigail, more than Yuri fundamentally gets people to overthink pregnancy and child-rearing.[00:27:08] Like, I didn’t think about any of the complications that would come with pregnancy before I got pregnant. I- Really? I was... No, no. Like, my, my plan with everything is just like- I’m not gonna think through the consequences at all. Which I guess... I mean, we’re trying to be as responsible as we can, of course, but, like, when it comes to the downsides- Mm[00:27:28] or the risks or the fears, I’m just like, look, I- I’m aware of, like, the broad statistics. Those look fine to me. I’m willing to take those on, and I’m not going to educate myself about everything possible that can go wrong with this. Remember, like, with, with childbirth and stuff, for the first time around when I was like, “I’m gonna do unmedicated labor,” I was like, well, okay, I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna, like- Yeah[00:27:48] take childbirthing courses or read a book or anything. Like, that’s just gonna get me too into my head. Like, look it’s just gonna hurt. It hurt a lot. I, you know, hurt so much that I threw up and all the other things. But you[00:27:59] Malcolm Collins: were in [00:28:00] labor for, like, 48 hours. Like, you[00:28:01] Simone Collins: are-[00:28:02] Malcolm Collins: It was not great ... a worst[00:28:03] Simone Collins: case example.[00:28:03] Yeah. Yeah, and, and, yeah, like, induced labor that was horrible. And yeah, it was... But, like, I, I think it would’ve been worse, ‘cause I’ve learned this the hard way, s- one of the worst forms of pain is anticipating pain. It’s not like the thing itself. I can’t remember the pain. I remember throwing up from it.[00:28:18] I remember thinking, like, “I m- I only exist with the pain, and this, this will be everything forever.” Like, there, there was nothing in my mind but the pain, and I was sitting with it, and it was, it was what it was, and I was just ready to just keep going. The, but I don’t remember it. I don’t remember what it felt like.[00:28:33] Like, why, how could I remember that? So I think that ultimately was mu- a lot healthier for me, and all this overthinking is really not helping people. And Robert Sapolsky, you know, who does the great courses, course on stress and cortisol really insightfully explains how, like, our stress system was not developed for humans who have, like, metacognition, who can, like, literally build endogenous stress- stressors merely by thinking about something, right?[00:29:03] Like, the gazelle is chased by the, what, lion, lioness, and it runs, and it’s very stressed- Mm ... and the cortisol’s coursing through its veins, and then the, the lion catches another gazelle and eats it and then the gazelle goes back to eating grass- Yeah ... and it’s fine, right? Like-[00:29:17] Malcolm Collins: Yeah ...[00:29:18] Simone Collins: it, that’s... And then there’s no more cortisol, whereas, like, the human, Will just think about something that could possibly potentially happen in the future, but there’s no actual reason it will happen.[00:29:27] And they’re- ... experiencing the same level of cortisol in their system. And it is chronically very unhealthy, and I, I don’t appreciate that there’s a lot of content out there that feeds into that, and that people let themselves feed into that. And I don’t think you should, or anyone should indulge in that because it is, it is both unhealthy and not, not, not productive.[00:29:46] You sh- if you’re concerned about something, build a contingency plan for it, reduce the odds, but like don’t think about it. But anyway, overthinking about pregnancy could probably be contributing to a rise in phobia about pregnancy, which is known as tocophobia, which is a weird name.[00:30:04] Malcolm Collins: Tocophobia?[00:30:04] Tocophobia. Well, a lot of people have that. I mean, you, again, wanted to get your tubes tied for no reason.[00:30:08] Simone Collins: Yeah, that was more just, like, euphoria. That wasn’t like I was afraid of being pregnant. I, I mean, clearly I’ve never been afraid of being pregnant. I was just like, “I’m super happy to be alone forever,” and you know, you know how I hate people.[00:30:21] So that was fun. And it was a fun idea. But no, like I, I did not have that. But it is actually pretty prevalent. This 2017 systematic review of 33 studies looking at a total of 854,000 pregnant women worldwide estimated that there’s a sort of pooled prevalence of tocophobia between, oh, like around f- 14% with individual study estimates ranging from about 3.7% to 43%.[00:30:48] And I bet a lot of that had to do with the, the population sampled, and I bet the populations that are consuming content from the Girls with the Lists is, is more closer to the 43% end of the spectrum.[00:31:00] Malcolm Collins: Wait, 14% of women have a fear of pregnancy?[00:31:04] Simone Collins: Yeah. M- just sort of like roughly per this like meta, meta sy- system- systematic meta review and it, yeah, 14%.[00:31:12] And keep in mind, this is a 2017 systematic review of 33 studies. All those studies were conducted before 2017, obviously. And these two young women only began posting around 2021 and after. So and I bet it’s a lot worse. And it’s not great. Yeah. So- Well- ... you know ...[00:31:33] Malcolm Collins: it, it’s interesting to look at her Substack as well to get an idea of just like what goes through her mind, what she sits around thinking about all day.[00:31:40] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:31:41] Malcolm Collins: So if we’re just reading them like in backwards chronological order, it’s Girls Don’t Want to Be Someone’s Wife Anymore, Kids Ruin Everything- ... Everything That Happened in the World of Birth Control Last Month, Pill Pop Culture, The Weekly Dose Everything That Happened This Week in the World of Birth Control, The Ultimate [00:32:00] Nude, It, it, Lorde’s new album features her IUD.[00:32:05] Simone Collins: Look, okay, I think Abigail, she’s just living a very happy dink life. And I think she also could be an amazing parent. She had two siblings. She has a- ample memories of being pretty naughty as a child, driving her parents pretty nuts as a child doing pretty naughty things as a child, stuff that would qualify for her own videos.[00:32:22] So she, she knows what it’s like to be a demon child sometimes. I think all, all children do, except for me ‘cause I was perfect. Oh, no wait, I scared my parents crapless when I starved myself. Never mind. But then she- then she doesn’t really talk about teens, she just talks about toddlers. She lives in downtown Los Angeles.[00:32:39] She started posting these in 2021. To give you sort of like Picture of her pain tolerance- Mm ... she thinks that getting an IUD was the most painful thing she has ever experienced. Which is not comfort- I’ve not gotten an IUD before, but from what I’ve heard from other people, it could be, it could be pretty uncomfortable, but it, bir- you know, birth is more.[00:32:59] Other things are more. She, she hates cleaning. She hates cooking. She loves playing video games. Has a boyfriend, as far as I understand. She talks about him sometimes. And[00:33:07] Malcolm Collins: she really loves her cats. I will say she, she does find interesting stuff. I was unaware of this. Did you know that Flo, the period tracking app, has been proven to be collecting user data and sharing it with Meta?[00:33:16] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:33:18] Malcolm Collins: I didn’t know this.[00:33:21] Simone Collins: Seems reasonable.[00:33:21] Malcolm Collins: She says she’s been using Flo and is disgusted by this information.[00:33:25] Simone Collins: Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, you know, she’s, she’s on like the, she lives in downtown Los Angeles. She’s a, she’s a dink. Like, well, she’s going to have to say the progressive things. She also has merch.[00:33:33] They’re, they’re all in the like... They’re, they’re sweatshirts, all of them. Some have hoodies. Some are crew necks. There’s the $60 divorce your Republican husband XL crew neck sweatshirt with a wolf on it. Sold out. The $50 dump your Republican boyfriend medium large hunting camo crew neck sweatshirt.[00:33:49] Dump your Republican[00:33:50] Malcolm Collins: boyfriend.[00:33:51] Simone Collins: Oh, my God. Also sold out. The $68 dump your Republican boyfriend XL green crew neck. The $58 dump your Republican boyfriend XL pink hoodie. What’s weird is all of these are for larger people. There’s not a single small item in the entire shop, and she’s an ex- extra smell. Extra smell.[00:34:09] She’s extra small. So I don’t know.[00:34:13] Malcolm Collins: She, she had a map of the best and worst states to have a baby, and it’s just like all Democrat states are ranked as good. All Republican states ranked as bad. Duh. P- Pennsylvania is ranked as good. To have a[00:34:22] Simone Collins: baby. Yeah.[00:34:23] To have a baby. Yeah. ‘Cause I think we’re at like 24 weeks for abortions.[00:34:31] Malcolm Collins: Oh, that’s why it’s ranked that way. Yeah,[00:34:33] Simone Collins: duh. Because it’s to have a baby, not abortion. Of course, Malcolm. Gee whiz. Gosh. Yeah, she’s, she’s- How[00:34:37] Malcolm Collins: it was calculated: WalletHub ranked the best and worst states to have a baby by evaluating all 50 states and the District of Columbia across four categories: cost, healthcare, baby friendliness, and family friendliness, using 31 weighted metrics scored on a 100-point scale[00:34:50] Simone Collins: It’s abortion, Malcolm.[00:34:52] I mean, it could also be, I mean, keep in mind, like, in the state, in this state at least too, and, and this is how it is in many states, not all necessarily Democratic states, but generally in the United States, you, if you are at, near, or below the poverty level, especially as a woman, get food assistance, free healthcare, housing assistance.[00:35:15] So all of those labor and delivery charges from the hospital are totally waived. And that’s really helpful, obviously. And,[00:35:24] Malcolm Collins: Yeah.[00:35:25] Simone Collins: Yeah. Anyway but in terms of how I feel about this, how I imagine you will feel about this too, is that what Abigail is doing is fine. She’s really clear. One thing you don’t know this, but, like, in her content, she is super clear to not shame parents, like any of the parents she’s covering.[00:35:43] She’s super empathetic toward them, and I really can’t say the same about many parents online, even like very pro-natalist and pro-kid parents. And she’s also way more ethical than your typical content creator with the clips that she uses. [00:36:00] She told NBC, quote, “If I’m going to do a video about bodies in particular and show someone’s body, I’m going to make sure that I have consent from that mother first.”[00:36:09] Like if she posted a video and she made this acknowledgement like, “This is my body. It’s pretty crazy. The things that have happened to my body is wild.” She also said, “I have such respect and a reverence and admiration for the people who do choose to go through th- with this because it’s a huge choice,” Porter said.[00:36:24] “I hope people will stop treating having children as an impulse decision that everyone does. I think that’s better for us and also for the children because if every child that was ever born had parents that really wanted them, I think the world would be a better place.” I 100% agree with that.[00:36:40] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I- I mean, her framework for understanding why somebody wants children is really messed up, but it’s completely in line with the dominant cultural subset- Yeah[00:36:48] so you can’t really blame her for it. You super can’t blame her. These people have no idea why they’re alive, why they should continue living, what’s the point of life, right? Like, they’re just like, So they can only relate things in, in, or they only can relate to things in how those things relate to their personal happiness, basically.[00:37:05] Yeah.[00:37:06] Simone Collins: Yeah, like, is this gonna be uncomfortable? Well, let’s not do it then. Which is a thing, but I, I genuinely believe that- Like, I would be fine if someone was like, “Look, you think you wanna become a parent? Watch five hours of Abigail Porter’s content and then decide.” And if someone can- I don’t[00:37:23] Malcolm Collins: know about that.[00:37:24] That’s- No ... that’s, that’s, n- because her content isn’t representative.[00:37:27] Simone Collins: You haven’t watched[00:37:28] Malcolm Collins: it, dude. Yeah. You haven’t watched it But if you had watched it earlier, you may have had a lot more- No.[00:37:32] Simone Collins: Mm-mm ...[00:37:33] Malcolm Collins: trepidations about going into pregnancy.[00:37:34] Simone Collins: No.[00:37:35] Malcolm Collins: Not at all. Well, I think you’re a tough woman, Simone, and I don’t think that you’re representative of the average female.[00:37:40] Simone Collins: Look, I mean, I, again, I, I just gave my whole spiel on how I think overthinking things and trying to figure everything out is not good for you. But in the end, look, Malcolm, I’ve been very clear that I’m willing to do pretty much anything. I, I, and I, I’m not gonna actively go into something like a pregnancy where I have a high likelihood of dying because then I can’t be there to raise the kids, right?[00:38:00] But, like, I will go through pretty much anything up to that. And a- as long as I can keep caring for the kids, obviously. And I, I mean, like I, I, I, I just, I agree with Abigail. I think that if, if you’re not willing to undertake the risks and the hardship, then you should not be a parent. And that’s just how it is.[00:38:21] And I think that, it- Abigail’s content is really useful in dissuading people from having kids for trivial reasons, and she actually helps actual parents head off medical issues. Again, that same NBC article they wrote, “Brig Stewart, who is now pregnant with her second child, described the list videos as a powerful tool fuls- for self-advocacy.[00:38:40] She said, ‘I was totally shocked by all the things that could happen to you, and that’s even in today’s modern world, which is shocking with the amount of research and access that we have at our fingertips,’ Brig Stewart said. ‘There’s no, there’s so many different types of complications, and it can be really brutal to women, so I was like, this is empowering.’”[00:38:56] And look, you and I were just talking about a case in which someone we know has, has had to really do a lot of self-advocacy in a hospital situation, and only through their own self-advocacy did they get treatment that actually made a huge difference, and it may be the difference between life and death, or a functional life- Yeah[00:39:13] And, and, you know, forever not functional life. So, you know, it’s, it’s not bad for people to know what can go wrong, or like to recognize, oh, like for example, if I started getting a growth the size of a fingertip on my lip, I would not know what that was and probably wait longer than I, I should have.[00:39:29] Whereas now I know that there’s such a thing as, like, benign pregnancy tumors, and I would just be like, “Look, I think this is...” And I’d go right to the right specialist and try to head it off before it got giant, right? Like, this is good. It’s not bad. And in terms of our viewers or people themselves, so let’s say you’re a young woman watching this or you’re a woman who wants to maybe have kids watching this who’s like, “Yeah, now I’m afraid of being pregnant,” or a young man who’s dating or interested in a young woman who’s terrified of being pregnant, who doesn’t wanna have kids because of content like this.[00:39:59] I would just [00:40:00] say, because this is what you did with me, Malcolm, have a logical conversation about the actual risks and about equivalent risks that they take or that you take in your everyday life through your hobbies.[00:40:11] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. It’s better- But this is assuming you have an autistic wife. What a normal woman’s going to do with this information is leverage it to get crazy good treatment while she’s pregnant, which they do.[00:40:21] Do you, do[00:40:21] Simone Collins: you wanna marry that woman? Do you wanna enter that? Like...[00:40:25] Malcolm Collins: A lot of guys are stuck because they were stupid And they didn’t know to only marry autists. I love that we have this giant fan base of autistic wives who,[00:40:34] Simone Collins: like- Isn’t that amazing? They, we’re out there. We are a legion.[00:40:38] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, we are a legion.[00:40:38] No, they’re like all of Simone’s, like, best friends now are our fans who are like, And you used to have, like, friends before we started the podcast, and now your friends since the podcast have all been these autistic women who y- f- found him fr- through the podcast.[00:40:53] Simone Collins: It’s true. All, all the, all the women who live rent-free in my brain are podcast listeners.[00:40:57] You may be listening right now and not realize how, how much I think about you. I just don’t have time to write. It’s, that’s, that’s crappy of me. But anyway, yeah, it, we’re amazing. But I, I really, like really, d- if you cannot have a conversation with a woman and be like, “Look, I know you’d like to get this cosmetic procedure done.[00:41:14] I know you love to backpack. Like, let’s talk about that. You like to eat out. You wanna know what happens when people eat out?” Like, I just think giving this pers- some perspective would be very helpful, and also doing the thing that the, the... What, what is your objective function? What is your life actually about?[00:41:30] In the end, you just gave me bigger things to care about because you allowed me to decide for myself, you empowered me to decide for myself what I actually cared about, what I valued and what I wanted to maximize with life. And suddenly, when my life wasn’t any longer about, well, I just want to avoid things that are unpleasant, which is kind of the societal default, as you said-[00:41:53] Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm[00:41:53] Simone Collins: I, I was kind of willing and able to do pretty much anything. I mean, I’ve... Even this year, we’ve, we’ve done a whole new level of stuff that’s otherwise would’ve been, like, impossible in the past couple of years.[00:42:02] Malcolm Collins: What I wonder is, does she have baby fever? I mean, probably, yes, because that’s why she’s still doing this.[00:42:06] Simone Collins: I don’t think so. Yeah. She, she has two cats. I think one’s named Willow. So[00:42:09] Malcolm Collins: she’s masturbating the baby fever with the cats.[00:42:12] Simone Collins: Maybe. A- and, and, a- well, I think there’s there’s plenty of rumors. I think for a while, like, in her videos she’s like, “And I still do not have kids.” So I think some rumor spread at some point of like, “Oh, Abigail Porter had kids, or had a, had a baby but tried to hide[00:42:25] Malcolm Collins: it.”[00:42:25] No, but I mean, that’s such the thing, though, for this sort of crowd, right? We have a whole nother thing[00:42:30] Simone Collins: of- Probably, yeah. Yeah. A whole nother thing ...[00:42:31] Malcolm Collins: where they’re all like, “Men are terrible. Men are the worst.”[00:42:34] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:42:35] Malcolm Collins: Uh-oh. Well...[00:42:37] Simone Collins: Ugh, I know. Anyway, though, I think it’s good. I think it’s positive. I mean, what, what advice would you give to a young man?[00:42:43] And, and s- aside from lowering his expectations, oh my God[00:42:47] Malcolm Collins: I mean, if you’re, if you’re with a woman who doesn’t wanna have kids, th- that should be established early in a relationship, and just get rid of her, and constantly make it clear to her early in the relationship that this is not a small thing for you.[00:42:56] This is, like, the core thing for you. This is your core purpose in life or part of your purpose in life. And I was incredibly clear about this with Simone, and it’s been increasingly clear to me how clear I was from reading her diaries.[00:43:11] Simone Collins: Yeah. ‘[00:43:12] Malcolm Collins: Cause I was going through them again recently, and,[00:43:13] Simone Collins: But you gotta...[00:43:14] Okay, I got... You have to put your money where your mouth is, and that’s one thing that Malcolm did that... Like, ‘cause look, my, my barrier to entry here was high. I was really unwilling to, super unwilling to have kids.[00:43:26] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I mean, that’s the thing that really gets it for feminists. If they’re like, “Well, then you have to do all the work to take care of the kid,” and it’s like, “Okay, so you’re gonna support the family,” right?[00:43:36] Like, because... A- and if they’re like, “No, no, no, no, I need you as the man to support the family,” and at that point it’s just like- Well,[00:43:42] Simone Collins: yeah, but now you know you can’t fudge ... this[00:43:44] Malcolm Collins: makes no sense. Like, you want me to treat you like a child, right? Like your entire life, right?[00:43:48] Simone Collins: Like- Look, but no, no, no, but that’s not...[00:43:49] But see, that’s the thing, is that’s not the way it is for most women. The way it is for most women is, “I have my career. I love my career. I don’t wanna give it up.” That, that, it, that just is. I... Be fair, right? I mean, [00:44:00] like, I think women who want to be a trad wife are-[00:44:02] Malcolm Collins: No. No ...[00:44:02] Simone Collins: more comfortable.[00:44:03] Malcolm Collins: I, I disagree. I think a lot of women just want, like, a rich guy and, like, a nice life, and that’s really what they’re in it for, and they don’t really care about...[00:44:11] Like, they, they find the idea mortifying that they have to keep working.[00:44:19] Simone Collins: Actually, with the rise of AI, that’s gonna be more common. Pe- women are gonna start treating their careers as find, attach yourself to a man who is capable of making money with AI. Mm-hmm ... this is not to dunk on women with AI. Actually, there’s a lot of pe- y- women who listen to this podcast who are amazing with AI.[00:44:35] But the propensity of the average woman to take and run with AI is- Are[00:44:40] Malcolm Collins: there? Most of our female fans- ... lower ... I do not think use AI that much. We’ve got Leaflet, and that’s about it.[00:44:46] Simone Collins: People I talk to are. Yeah,[00:44:47] Malcolm Collins: okay.[00:44:48] Simone Collins: Yeah, like a lot. But, you know, those are the ones who are online and chatting with me, so, like, it makes sense.[00:44:52] Yeah.[00:44:52] Malcolm Collins: What’s really cool, women, is AI can help you think.[00:44:56] Simone Collins: Shut up, Malcolm.[00:44:58] Malcolm Collins: I- It can fact check whether you’re being rational if you use a base model with the right fact-checking prompt to not get you into a loop of self-affirmation[00:45:11] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm What? Nothing, I love you. Oh![00:45:12] Malcolm Collins: What?[00:45:14] Simone Collins: You are...[00:45:19] What[00:45:20] Malcolm Collins: is this? W- what are you-[00:45:21] Simone Collins: It’s nothing. It’s nothing, Malcolm. It’s absolutely nothing. You will see no consequences for your actions.[00:45:31] I love you, and that’s, that’s it for tonight. I was thinking I can m- make you green beans with some garlic and chili oil.[00:45:38] Malcolm Collins: That[00:45:38] Simone Collins: sounds really good ... with maybe a couple, just, like, two of those little Vietnamese banh xa for dinner.[00:45:44] Malcolm Collins: Very good. You know me, I don’t want that much.[00:45:46] Simone Collins: Okay. Yeah, figured it kind of summery but not too heavy.[00:45:50] All righty.[00:45:51] Malcolm Collins: Yeah.[00:45:51] Simone Collins: I love you, and-[00:45:52] Malcolm Collins: Oh, and we can make some other types of small meats, because I’ve noticed that small meats are something I want with a lot of dishes Small meats. You know, like it w- Small meats ... well, you were looking at Korean meatballs- Okay ... but they were, like, pre-made, and I was like, “What do we have around?”[00:46:04] Well, I[00:46:04] Simone Collins: still have a bunch of Burmese chicken, is, like, sort of that fine distributed chicken, but that goes better over, like, a rice or something.[00:46:10] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, or something heavier. But, like, a, a small banh xa type thing. Like, other options that are, like... Shut your wing.[00:46:21] Simone Collins: Remember when our kids... ‘Cause we have a, we...[00:46:23] It’s for context. In, in our attic, we keep baskets of themed toys, and Malcolm learned that you can buy you can buy Hot Wheels cars in bulk off eBay, like, by the pound. And once you, like, shake out all the sand, ‘cause they’ve all been, like, abandoned in sandboxes and fished out by some family as they, like, do an estate sale.[00:46:41] But once you, like, get all the sand out, they’re really decent. So we have, like, a bag full s- of Hot Wheel cars, which we call the small cars, and then we have a bag of, like, big cars that we’ve accumulated over time. And they used to call small cars fwa cars. Do you remember?[00:46:55] Malcolm Collins: Fwa? Fwa[00:46:56] Simone Collins: cars. Yeah. Why? ‘Cause they’re f- weird.[00:47:00] Malcolm Collins: Idiots? Okay.[00:47:01] Simone Collins: But remember they used to call They thought that the, the word commercial... They kept being like, “It’s a cover martial,” and I had no idea what they were talking about until we discovered that it was their word for commercial. All right. All right, we gotta, we gotta go. I- Yep ... love[00:47:17] Malcolm Collins: you. I love[00:47:17] Simone Collins: you.[00:47:18] Goodbye. Not knowing what you’re gonna get is I think what makes it so addictive with the video generation. Yeah. Yeah, you don’t know- You’re like, “Is this gonna work?” And then you realize, “Oh, I should have given this negative prompt,” or, “I should have m- made this detail clearer.” And then-[00:47:33] Malcolm Collins: And then you can get really fun stuff.[00:47:35] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:47:35] Malcolm Collins: Oh, God. You get super fun stuff. These glasses are just so messed up. Where are the... Where are my glasses?[00:47:40] Simone Collins: Have you checked the kid room where you were all day yesterday taking care of the kids? ‘Cause that’s probably where they are. You probably took them off in frustration at some point. Actually- Oh, you’re going for it.[00:47:50] Okay. Okay[00:47:52] Malcolm Collins: Oh my God, here they are[00:47:54] Simone Collins: Wait, where? Where were they?[00:47:56] Malcolm Collins: They had fallen under a table[00:47:58] Simone Collins: What? That looked ridiculous. My glasses. My glasses. Which is out completely the same glasses. O- the other ones were just too... I[00:48:00][00:48:05] can clean them. You seem[00:48:09] to[00:48:13] mind it more than I do. I swept out the, like, shed and the chicken coop yesterday, and they are literally covered in poop, but I can still kind of see, so I don’t mind. Whereas, like, you have one bit of dust on your glasses and you can’t stand it.[00:48:30] Speaker 3: I got you some candy, Toasty. I want candy. Please eat the candy, Toasty. Please eat it. Eat the candy, Toasty. I- Eat the candy ... want to eat the candy. Toasty has to eat the candy. Toast- yeah, he has to eat the candy. I want- Because he didn’t eat his dinner. Yeah, Toasty,[00:48:45] you didn’t eat your dinner, so you gotta eat the candy. Here, I’ll make him eat it. You gonna eat the candy? He’s not gonna have any choice. No, I can put it in the snack thing. I will[00:48:56] eat my dinner. You will? You promise? You promise to eat your dinner, or you’re gonna have to eat the candy. What? No. You promise to eat your dinner? I will make him. You’re not g- Here, well, let’s get him and make him eat the candy. Ra, ra, ra, ra, ra. Oh, God. Okay, Toasty. Are you gonna go eat the dinner, you promise?[00:49:06] You’re gonna eat your cheese? Cheese. Okay. Thank you, Toasty. Put it in your mouth right now. Otherwise, you’ll have to eat the candy. Okay, here we go. Okay, Toasty. Wow. I want candy. Have another bite, or you’re gonna have to eat candy. You don’t w- oh, thank you, Toasty. I want- We love you, Toasty. You’re a good kid[00:49:23] Speaker 4: one. Candy. Someone candy, someone This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of Based Camp, Simone and Malcolm Collins dive deep into the forbidden history of group-based stereotypes and cultural pattern recognition from ancient Egypt through Renaissance Europe. This is the dark lore mainstream education won’t touch — what Egyptians really thought of Nubians and Libyans, Greek views of “effete” Persians and rowdy Macedonians, Roman donkey-god graffiti mocking Jews and Christians, medieval antisemitic pig-suckling art that makes modern versions look tame, and the surprising origins of the “French Vice,” “Italian Vice,” and “English Vice.”The Collinses explore how what we now call racism was once just observed averages, patterns, and tribal jokes — not modern ideological sin. No moralizing. Just raw historical context on how humans have always categorized “us vs. them.”Show NotesWith the release of Talkie, a 13M “vintage” language model trained only on pre-1931 text, people realized just how casual, widespread, and matter-of-fact prejudice was in even the recent past.Ancient EgyptDifferent groups were absolutely depicted, mostly with Egyptians being reddish, nubians being black, Asiatics being tan (and often bearded), and Libyans being white (and often bearded)Nubians as people to conqueredTexts and artistic programs from pharaonic Egypt sometimes emphasize Nubia as a land to be subdued and exploited, supporting a stereotype of Nubians as “barbaric” or less civilized compared to Egypt.* See:Critique of the “Black Pharaohs” Theme: Racist Perspectives of Egyptian and Kushite/Nubian Interactions in Popular Media https://www.jstor.org/stable/48763823Canaanites/Asiatics as rebellious and treacherous* Egyptian sources portray peoples to the northeast of the nile (“Asiatics,” including Levantine groups) as culturally suspect, often linked to rebellion, disorder, and treachery* They were also, however, viewed as trading partners and skilled craftsmen* TL:DR: They threatened social order* Egyptian royal narratives from the later 17th–16th centuries BCE describe the Hyksos (“Shepherd Kings”) as foreign usurpers who disrupted proper Egyptian order.* After the Theban kings of the 18th Dynasty expelled them around 1550 BCE, Egyptian texts portray this expulsion as the restoration of Ma’at (cosmic order), implicitly stereotyping Asiatic rule as chaotic, illegitimate, and oppressive* In New Kingdom imperial inscriptions, Canaanite city‑states are often framed as unreliable vassals—prone to rebellion, needing punishment, and subject to heavy tribute and forced labor conscriptionLibyans: Western barbarians turned useful soldiers and even rulers* In Egyptian sources, Libyans were stereotyped both as dangerous, warlike “western barbarians” and, over time, as useful soldiers and eventually fully Egyptianized rulers; the view shifted from hostile outsider to complex “cousin” status as Libyan groups migrated into the Delta and took power.* Sometimes they traded; sometimes they fought* “The Libu were first mentioned in New Kingdom (c. 1550-1069 BCE) texts and were often the Libyan archetype depicted in Egyptian art. Libu tribesmen were depicted with their hair cut at the nape, a sidelock, and often tattooed. All Libyan tribes were shown with light complexions and Caucasian features.” (The Collector, citing “The Meshwesh”)* They had tattoos and sidelocks and interesting haircuts* “Eventually, massive migration brought the Libyans into Egypt’s Delta during the New Kingdom, forever changing the political landscape of the Nile Valley.” (The Collector)Ancient GreeceGreeks commonly divided the world into Hellenes (Greek speakers) and “barbarians” (non‑Greek speakers), treating Greek culture as inherently superior.Persians as decadent and effete* Persians especially were portrayed as decadent, soft, and naturally suited to monarchy rather than free citizenship* Their art of Darius the Great certainly makes him look fancyAthenians: Cultural elites* Athenians were stereotyped—especially in Athenian sources—as philosophical, talkative, artistic, and politically engaged, the center of culture and debate.Spartans: Disciplined warriors* Sparta practiced xenelasia, the expulsion or strict control of foreigners, driven by fears that outsiders might spy on Sparta or corrupt its harsh, militarized way of life.* This created a stereotype of Spartans as intensely closed, suspicious of outsiders, and committed to preserving a rigid ethos that rejected luxury, commerce, and cosmopolitan influences* Spartan woman were also definitely seen differently than Athenian women (who were largely meant to be unseen), what with their athleticism, property ownership, etc.* Art of a Spartan woman running:Ionian Greeks: Cowards* Ionian Greeks of Asia Minor (e.g., coastal cities under Persian rule) were stereotyped as cowardly and weak fighters, “softened” by their mild climate and prosperity, and as good talkers but poor warriors.Boitians: Hicks* Boiotians, especially Thebans, were mocked as brutish country hicks—agricultural, uncultured, and un‑cosmopolitan—later also stereotyped as big, strong wrestlers rather than subtle thinkers.Ancient RomeChristians* Alexamenos worships [his] god” graffiti* The artist is referring to a well‑known slur that Jews and then Christians worshipped a donkey—an accusation called onolatry—and used the donkey head to mock Christ and Alexamenos as absurd, foolish worshippers* At first, Christians were seen as just another Jewish subgroup* Their devotion to a crucified man and claims about one true god were seen as peculiar but not uniquely threatening compared to other mystery cults and foreign religions.Jews: Stubborn cliquey weirdos* Jews were portrayed as stubborn subjects with a herd mentality, fiercely attached to unique customs such as circumcision and dietary laws.* Romans satirized Jews as gullible religious fanatics and puzzled over their attitudes toward pigs, sometimes imagining them as pig‑worshippers or pig‑haters, while also fearing that Romans themselves might be seduced into Jewish practices.All outsiders: Barbarian* Romans tended to divide the world into Roman and non‑Roman, with non‑Romans often lumped as “barbari” and assumed to be less civilized, less disciplined, and less politically sophisticated.* Foreigners could be mocked for accents, dress, food, and religious practices, and were frequently portrayed as either dangerously cunning or naïvely simple.* At the same time, Roman writers sometimes romanticized “barbarians” as noble savages, using them rhetorically to critique decadence and corruption inside Rome itself.Greeks: Admirable and contemptible* The good: The source of philosophy, art, and literature* The bad: Talkative, tricky, morally weak, effeminate, prone to luxury, unreliable in war (basically, brainy but soft)Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Syrians (people from the levant): Sleazy merchants* Stereotyped as sleazy merchants obsessed with money and pleasure* The phrase “fides Punica” (“Phoenician honesty”) became proverbial for deceit, and Carthaginians were especially cast as treacherous, cruel enemies whose sophistication made them dangerous.* Syrians and other easterners were depicted as lazy bon‑vivants living in over‑civilized cities, spending their time in baths and banquets instead of honest work or soldiering.* Roman elites worried that exposure to such cultures would “soften” Romans, so Levantine peoples embodied a stereotype of corrupting luxury and dishonesty.Egyptians: Ancient and sinister* Romans were fascinated and disturbed by their religious rituals and animal cults* Roman writers framed Egypt as a land of magic, superstition, and arrogant priests, and resented Roman dependence on Egyptian grain, which led to a stereotype of Egyptians as arrogant and entitledPersians / Parthians: Formidable enemies* Persians and later Parthians were stereotyped as the archetypal eastern enemy: militarily formidable but ruled by cruel, tyrannical monarchs.* Romans cast Persia as the mirror image of Rome—an empire of disciplined warriors, but with an inferior, despotic political system and excessive royal luxury.Gauls: Noble savages* Gauls were initially seen as hotheaded, brave, “noble savages”: valiant in battle but impetuous, simple, and prone to rashness.* After Gaul became more integrated into the empire, Romans began to stereotype Gauls as softening under luxury and Romanization, while still recognizing them as good orators and sometimes resenting “new money” Gaulish elites.Germans: An even more savage version of gauls* Germans were like Gauls but even more “savage”: unconquered, closely tied to nature, living beyond the edges of civilization.* Roman authors alternated between romanticizing Germans as free, hardy warriors and dehumanizing them as wild beasts, a frontier people to be crushed or contained.Medieval EuropeIrish, Welsh, Slavs, and Baltic People: Barbarians; barely Christian* Anglo‑Norman writers in England and those living in what’s now German routinely depicted nearby frontier peoples (Irish, Welsh, Slavs, Baltic pagans) as barely Christian barbarians.* They were stereotyped as violent pastoralists, pirates, or plunderers, resistant to law and agriculture, and needing conquest and missionary work to climb the “rungs of civilization.”* People used these stereotypes to justify English expansion into Ireland and Wales and German colonization in the Baltic north.* Frontier groups were therefore clearly framed as savage, lawless, and religiously deficient compared to the “civilized” core.* We can kind of see how people viewed pastoral peasants in three engravings representing peasants made by Albrecht Dürer between the years 1514 and 1519 (Renaissance, but still the gist)Scots: Militant poor people* Viewed as militarily dangerous but less wealthy and “civilized” than England or France, with a rugged land and smaller, poorer towns.* Persistent enemies who defended their independence fiercely; chronicles focus on war—Stirling Bridge, Bannockburn—and portray Scots as stubborn and warlike.Jews: Kind of a different species?* Lots of art of Jews + pigs; Jews not really being human* E.g. there’s this one sculpture on a church in Wittenburg, where Martin Luther once preached, that people tried to have taken down, though the city decided to leave it up* Jews were increasingly stereotyped as melancholic, greedy, and spiritually obstinate; from the 13th century medical writers even speculated about distinctive Jewish bodily traits (e.g., hemorrhoidal or monthly bleeding), embodying difference as quasi‑hereditary.* This fed wider notions that Jews were “fixed” outsiders, difficult or impossible to integrate into the Christian “New Israel,” and associated them with usury and corruption of the body politic.Most graffiti isn’t really showing biases; it’s just funny looking and it makes me laughRenaissance EuropeThe “[country] Vice” concept emergedFrench vice: Sexual looseness and maturity* Observers of the French royal court in the 16th–17th centuries, especially around figures like Catherine de Medici and later the Bourbon monarchs, portrayed it as a place of intrigue, mistresses, and elaborate sexual politics.* Anti‑French polemic and gossip emphasized alleged harems of ladies‑in‑waiting used to seduce nobles, and more generally depicted French court women as sexually manipulative, feeding foreign ideas that France was unusually decadent.* By the 17th century, narratives of French “debauchery” were circulating across Europe, presenting the French court as a laboratory of outrageous erotic tastes compared with more “sober” courts in places like England.* French literature made it worse* The rise of an international publishing industry around the mid‑1600s helped spread erotic and semi‑pornographic French literature across borders, giving other Europeans a steady diet of stories featuring libertine characters and sophisticated sexual intrigue.* Pamela Cheek and others note that “dirty books” and French self‑promotion were central to cementing the “French lover” stereotype, with print culture exporting an image of France as sexually adventurous.Italian Vice: Same-sex relationships* From the later Middle Ages onward, outsiders associated certain Italian cities, above all Florence, with widespread male same‑sex love and social networks that made such relationships visible and relatively common.* Evidence from court records, witness testimonies, and moralizing tracts shows active male queer communities, which helped cement the idea that Italy was unusually tolerant—or at least unusually saturated—with this behavior compared with other parts of Europe.* By the later 17th century, phrases like “the Italian vice” circulated in elite European discourse as coded ways to talk about male same‑sex intimacy without naming it directly.* In the 19th century, British and other northern European tourists helped revive and spread the “Italian vice” stereotype, both fascinated and scandalized by what they believed was Italy’s relaxed sexual morality.* Italian commentators themselves sometimes played into this image, depicting Italians as indolent and sexually lax compared with more “serious” northern Europeans, which ironically helped confirm foreign expectations.The English Vice: Erotic flagellation (and sometimes same-sex relationships)* Earlier, England was more often stereotyped by others as dour, puritan, or sexually repressed rather than especially deviant.* As the 19th century progressed, however, English public culture became strongly moralizing, with intense attention to sexual “perversions,” and English law was notably harsh on male same‑sex acts, making Britain a focal point for debates about homosexuality.* In that climate, continental commentators could talk about “English vice” to refer to specific behaviors (often male homosexual practices or flagellation in certain accounts) thought to be particularly prevalent or visible in England, especially in elite circles or sex‑work contexts.* This echoed how “Italian vice” had been used earlier for male homosexuality, but now with England associated both with moral panic and with the very behaviors it persecuted.Muslims: Fanatical warriors* Muslims and Ottoman Turks were cast as fanatical warriors, sexually threatening and religiously dangerous, sometimes admired for courage but feared as barbarous enemies of Christendom.Northern European: Dull work horses; Southern Europeans: Indulgent drama queens* Northern Europeans were often described as phlegmatic: slow, heavy, and dull, but honest and hardy; southern Europeans as more choleric or sanguine: quick‑tempered, passionate, and prone to luxury and intrigue.Northern Italians: Industrious but cold; Southern Italians: Lazy and emotional* Within Italy, later stereotypes distinguished industrious but cold northerners (polentoni) from lazy, emotional southerners (terroni), though these crystallized more fully after the Renaissance; the underlying idea of regional moral and temperamental contrast was already present.* Lombards and other Italian moneylenders were depicted as grasping and corrupting, metaphorically likened to Jews in some moralizing discourse, which tied Italian banking centers to greed and social decay.Episode Transcript[00:00:00] Simone Collins: Hello, Malcolm. It’s so nice to be speaking with you today because as is tradition on Base Camp, we will do what we probably should not do. And, and today we’re gonna go through the history of r- basically group-based and racial stereotypes.[00:00:15] It’s gonna be great.[00:00:16] Malcolm Collins: We are going to teach you guys... No, this is, this is what you come to Base Camp for. Yeah. You want to be educated, but not educated in what the system wants you to know.[00:00:24] Simone Collins: Yes.[00:00:24] Malcolm Collins: You want to be educated in the dark lore of these groups.[00:00:28] Simone Collins: We’re gentlemen of culture. A culture of culture. And by culture, we mean-[00:00:31] Malcolm Collins: You want to know, not just what you call a Jew today- Yes[00:00:36] but what did you call a Jew 300 years ago? You[00:00:40] Simone Collins: want to know- These are the important questions ...[00:00:41][00:00:56] Malcolm Collins: not just what you call a Black person today, but what were the stereotypes Black people had in ancient Europe? What about the Greeks? What about the various European states? Were some- Mm-hmm ... people primarily known for fetishes they had?[00:01:11] Yes, they were, we will learn.[00:01:13] Simone Collins: Well, of course.[00:01:13] Speaker 7: Welcome to the Museum here, we try to educate you on the dynamics of racism and prejudice in America.[00:01:22] We are now entering the Hall of Stereotypes. These wax figures represent how some intolerant people have labeled minorities. Here we see a Black person eating chicken and watermelon, a stereotype that hurts the African-American community.[00:01:36] What other stereotypes do you see here?[00:01:38] Speaker 10: Ah, here’s the Arab as a terrorist.[00:01:41] Speaker 7: That’s right. But of course, we know that not all Arabs are terrorists, don’t we, kids?[00:01:44] Speaker 8: Look, a covetous Jew.[00:01:46] Speaker 7: Very good, young man. The idea that Jews are only interested in money is very old indeed.[00:01:50] Speaker 11: Ah, here’s a good one. It’s the stereotypical sleepy Mexican.[00:01:54] Speaker 12: What, what? Oh, man, what time is it?[00:01:56] Speaker 11: Oh, I’m sorry. I thought you were a wax sculpture.[00:01:58] Speaker 12: No, man, I’m the janitor. I’m supposed to be cleaning, but I’m so tired.[00:02:02] Oh, I’m so sleepy.[00:02:04] Malcolm Collins: So let’s go into it.[00:02:06] Simone Collins: Yeah. And this, you know, this was really spurred, at least with me, by the release of Talky, this 13M vintage language model, which you can also find on RFAB along with other-[00:02:16] Malcolm Collins: Yes, so on RFAB, we have a section of RFAB called Historic Chat, and in it you have models that were trained in different ways in different periods.[00:02:22] And, and now all of them are working as far as I know.[00:02:25] Simone Collins: Yeah, I was just using the Talky version.[00:02:28] Malcolm Collins: And you asked Talky, I loved you sent me this image, and[00:02:31] Simone Collins: I was like- No, this this is actually a different one that I found when people on Reddit were comparing their findings, ‘cause I actually think that whoever at Talky has, has changed it a little bit maybe nerfed it a little bit.[00:02:42] So this person- No, wait,[00:02:43] Malcolm Collins: what’s this other one that you found? Can you send it to me so I can add it to RFAB?[00:02:48] Simone Collins: The, this was Talky, but this was Talky when it first came out.[00:02:51] Malcolm Collins: Oh. You see, I think- When people got mad[00:02:53] Simone Collins: at it ... after everything, yeah, after people shared their amazing findings they changed it because I had difficulty replicating them.[00:03:00] But here’s someone who posted to Talky, “What do you think about race mixing in America?” Talky 1930 responded, “I think mixture of races in America must be deprecated. The white and Black races can never live together on terms of social and political equality. The presence of slaves among freemen is an abomination, and although emancipation may in time remove that blot from our national eschaton, the amalgamation of the two classes must continue to be...”[00:03:35] And it’s kind of cut off, but basically-[00:03:37] Malcolm Collins: Regarded as, yeah ...[00:03:38] Simone Collins: yeah, re- regarded as something, something bad. Like, Talky is kind of weird in that it cuts off really early, and it, it, it still does now, but it, it clearly did for this person, too. So yeah, we, I think we forget how- pervasive various forms of racism, and just, a- actually, I don’t, like, there really wasn’t a s- such a thing as racism.[00:03:56] It was just kind of like people recognized [00:04:00] patterns and started to turn them into jokes and had stereotypes about people and groups, and it wasn’t seen as a bad thing. It was... And, and people, I think, also understood that these were not pervasive truths. Like, well, if a person is X, then obviously Y. It was just understood that there were averages and patterns.[00:04:20] But that, that became stereotypes, and eventually that became defined as racism.[00:04:23] Malcolm Collins: Is, is that, this show, Averages & Patterns- Averages &[00:04:26] Simone Collins: Patterns ...[00:04:26] Malcolm Collins: it, it, it’s, it’s changing consumer behavior. Changing cons-[00:04:29] Simone Collins: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. But this goes back as long as basically there were different people. So we are gonna start, Malcolm, with ancient Egypt.[00:04:39] I’m going to send you some images. So you,[00:04:41] Malcolm Collins: you wanted to turn our audience from casual racists into professional racists.[00:04:46] Simone Collins: Into, yes. Into, well, scholarly racists, into sophisticated racists who understand the context and the- Okay. I, I can’t.[00:04:57] Malcolm Collins: That’s what you come to Basecamp from.[00:04:59] Simone Collins: This is, this is why you’re here, friends.[00:05:00] Sure. But yeah, so in ancient Egypt, and this is really interesting, different groups were absolutely depicted differently in Egyptian art, with the Egyptians m- typically depicting themselves as, like, the r- the reddish looking ones.[00:05:13] Malcolm Collins: This is fascinating ...[00:05:15] Simone Collins: nubians were g- given a very, very dark color.[00:05:19] Asiatics were- Yeah, this, this is[00:05:20] Malcolm Collins: where, when people say that Egypt was run by Black people, I’m like, you can look at Egyptian art. Egyptians, like, characterize Black people in a very specific way. And, and there actually was one dynasty that was run by Black people. It was I think, like, a period of, like, 150 years, 250 years or something like that.[00:05:38] Simone Collins: And- Yeah, there’s a lot of history in Egypt ... and[00:05:40] Malcolm Collins: the art changed. In that period, the pharaohs were drawn Black, right? Like, it, th- it’s, it’s not like-[00:05:47] Simone Collins: Yeah, there, there’s not that much ambiguity there. Like, it’s pretty clear when Egyptians are attempting to depict... And this is the thing about Egyptian art.[00:05:54] It’s so helpful, because there was this one way for hundreds and hundreds of years that everything kind of had to be drawn. Like, there wasn’t much evolution in art. Right. So there’s not this, like- Yeah ... “Oh, no, this is a stylistic choice.” No, like, Egyptians had, they didn’t have the capacity for that. They’re like, “No, we are always going to draw-” For stylistic choices.[00:06:10] They’re like- Yeah, like- ... “There is one[00:06:11] Malcolm Collins: way of doing[00:06:12] Simone Collins: things” ... the person shall always be sideways. We’re doing it. It is, they’re gonna look in this exact way. It was very unusual to see art that differed from that which is kind of helpful. But yeah, so, Asiatics were tan and often bearded, and Libyans were the palest looking ones and often bearded.[00:06:29] For most of the, the European periods that historians have looked at Nubians were really framed or, like, you know, categorized i- stereotypically as, as people to be conquered. Like, they, they weren’t I, I, I would at least want to be a Nubian in ancient Egypt, we’ll put it that way. The texts and artistic programs from pharaonic Is that, is that how we say it?[00:06:53] F- a Pharaoh, Pharo- basically Egypt in the time of Pharaohs sometimes emphasize Nubia as this land to be subdued and exploited. That’s kind of, I think, as, as good as you can go. And that kind of supported this idea of Nubians also being a little bit barbaric or less civilized. They would show up in art often as, as servants.[00:07:14] So at least for most of Egyptian history, they did not get the great- greatest position. The Canaanites and Asiatics were also, though, seen as, as rebellious and treacherous. So they’re, mm, they’re, like, culturally sub- suspect. They’re linked to rebellion and disorder. But they were also trading partners.[00:07:35] So rather than just, like, “We’re gonna conquer you and take you over,” it was, “Well, like, well, we, we like their textiles, so I guess they’re okay kind of. But, like, don’t trust them. N- never trust you know, whoever you’re buying your carpet from.” I don’t know what they-[00:07:49] Malcolm Collins: Wait, did they, did they have specific people who they were like, “Don’t trust them”?[00:07:53] Simone Collins: There were no, there were no, like, specific figures, but I mean, yeah, you wouldn’t trust a Canaanite. Well,[00:07:58] Malcolm Collins: what were the Egyptian stereotypes about [00:08:00] the Nubians? Did you look that up, or should I pull that up right now?[00:08:02] Simone Collins: There were... I mean, like, this is all so old that a lot of this is conjecture that people are just trying to extrapolate from images, so it’s more just you understand where they are in the social order based on a lot of art.[00:08:14] Like, the people who are lower on the social order are depicted as smaller. The Pharaohs and the Egyptians are depicted as larger. That’s, that’s part of what people are looking at. But yeah, there, there was, there wasn’t like a, “Oh, you know Nubians. They’re like this.” I, I didn’t pick up on anything from that.[00:08:31] It’s more just general, like, “Well, these ones are reliable vassals, and these ones, w- we conquer them. That’s what we do. Like, we like to make art of us trouncing them.” Which i- is, it’s kind of a recurring theme of, like, there’s us and there’s others, and that’s going to show up a ton, and I think it really helps me contextualize the way that biases work today.[00:08:52] Even within the most, like, anti-racist groups, there’s us and there’s others. Mm-hmm. You know? There’s, there’s the, the progressive, enlightened, woke person, and then there’s Nazis. Like, it’s one or the other. One, choose yours. You know? Like, Nazi’s a new word for barbarian, and looking at all this history has really helped me think of that or contextualize that.[00:09:11] Libyans, I think, were really interesting. They were also barbarians to the Egyptians ‘cause they weren’t Egyptians. But they turned into useful soldiers and then even rulers for a short period, like you were saying with with Nubians.[00:09:21] Malcolm Collins: So yeah, with Nubians they did have stereotypes. They, they were- Okay, tell me[00:09:25] stereotyped as, as archers, first of all- Oh ... and, and mercenaries, but that’s because they were archers and mercenaries, right? Yeah. You know?[00:09:31] Simone Collins: That’s not a stereotype. That’s just, like, a-[00:09:34] Malcolm Collins: But there’s also the stereotype of the, the, the wretched Kush which you’ve talked about, of, of being a defeated enemy, right?[00:09:40] The wretched Kush. So they, they had- Yeah ... a lot of Nubian slaves bound captives, kneeling prisoners, being people being trampled upon or slaughtered by the Pharaoh.[00:09:48] Simone Collins: Yeah. That’s, that’s what you see, again, like smaller, being defeated in battle, kind of like, “This is a loser.” I think the Libyans w- in all the groups as perceived by ancient Egyptians are the most interesting because they were like a frenemy kind of.[00:10:02] They weren’t totally bad. They, they were sometimes trading partners, sometimes they were enemies. They were first mentioned in the New Kingdom, so going way back, and they also look super interesting. Like, they have the most style.[00:10:18] And I wonder if that’s kind of why the Egyptians were, like, frenemies with them because they also had clearly a very distinct culture.[00:10:24] In images of Nubian- Libyans, they have, like, this really distinct haircut where it’s just short at the nape of the neck. They have a side lock of hair that they wear. So they have, like, their hairstyles, and they also have tattoos, which is such a, like... So they have this very distinct style. They have fashion.[00:10:41] And then eventually so many Libyans migrated into Egypt that they completely changed the political landscape of, of the Nile Valley. So maybe the Libyans were some of the first ever, like, you know, migrant waves-[00:10:55] Malcolm Collins: Migrant waves that are[00:10:56] Simone Collins: a problem, right? Like- Yeah, this is, like, the migrant, “Oh, the Libyans,” like, you know.[00:10:59] The Libyans.[00:11:00] Yeah Which, I mean, it’s, some things just never change, right? Like, stereotyped as dangerous and more like barbarians but also sometimes useful soldiers. Just kind of a complex cousin frenemy kind of culture. So I, yeah, anyway, I, I kinda didn’t know anything about Libyans. I’d listened to that really long Great Courses lecture series about ancient Egypt, and I don’t remember anything about Libyans, so I’m like, “Well, what’s...[00:11:25] Come on.” It was always just about, like, Egypt really liking to trounce outsiders, so I don’t know.[00:11:30] Malcolm Collins: Okay, okay. So- Do we have any, do we have any graffiti or anything from this period of making fun of people?[00:11:35] Simone Collins: No, all the graffiti that you’ll typically find is, like, Roman or Napoleonic scratchings on hieroglyphs or modern tourists defacing them.[00:11:44] Okay,[00:11:45] Malcolm Collins: well, let’s get to that. Let’s keep moving then.[00:11:46] Simone Collins: Yeah. Ancient Greece th- and they’re very common of, like, you’re either someone who is Hellenistic, you spoke Greek, or you’re a barbarian. And obviously the Greeks were not- Well, I[00:11:56] Malcolm Collins: mean, I remember they had a lot of stereotypes about the Macedonians.[00:11:59] Oh[00:11:59] Simone Collins: [00:12:00] yeah, Persians, Persians. They were like, “[00:12:02] Look at these effete pretty boys.” Like you can see this, this art of Darius here looking very fancy. He wasn’t even always the Persian rulers were not even always necessarily depicted negatively, but they were always depicted as very fancy. And like- And I can’t remember what that movie was.[00:12:20] Where was that movie? What was that movie we watched where, like, the Persian ruler, I think it was Darius in it,[00:12:26] Malcolm Collins: Well, the idea of shaming- Just so pretty ... idolatry or the accumulation of ostentatious wealth, whi- which is what we think the idolatry bans are really about is like, the, i- just back to the beginning of Western history.[00:12:39] Yeah. Like the, the Greeks, the Spartans, they laughed at the people who did this. But on the opposite side of this, you have the, the Macedonians, who had a lot of stereotypes associated with them.[00:12:48] Simone Collins: Oh yeah, no, Macedonians were seen as, like, these heavy drinkers, raucous partiers, like sloppy drunks who didn’t even mix their wine.[00:12:58] What monsters.[00:12:59] Malcolm Collins: They were basically seen by the Greeks the way most other cultures in American history saw the greater Appalachian region people.[00:13:08] Simone Collins: They were, they were the drunk cousin of Greece. Like, they, they’re the ones you don’t want showing up at the party who, who drinks way too much and then, like, picks a fight.[00:13:17] But[00:13:17] Malcolm Collins: ultimately they were the much more effective population, right?[00:13:21] Simone Collins: I know, I know, I know. I mean, you have yeah, you have Alexander the Great. Like, it[00:13:24] Malcolm Collins: was a big embarrassment. They, they, they come to the, the Olympic Games and it’s like, “Yeah, sure, you’re allowed,” but, like, it’s the hillbillies coming to the Olympic Games over-[00:13:29] Simone Collins: Yeah, it’s like their hold my beer moment, and they go and conquer.[00:13:33] And it’s amazing.[00:13:34] Malcolm Collins: For people who are familiar, the Macedonians are the ones that Philip of Macedon, Alexander the Great came from. Yeah. Ended up conquering all of Greece and then most of the known world at the time.[00:13:42] Simone Collins: Yeah. And then you know, Cleopatra resulting from this. Like, the, the lasting influence there was huge.[00:13:48] And I, I love the- The, the royal metallurgies or, yeah ...[00:13:51] Malcolm Collins: yeah, so[00:13:51] Simone Collins: back to Persians though, basically, and this is funny too, you know? We, we’ve done that episode where you were like, “Well, I don’t know if people in the Middle East can handle democracy, just like culturally. Like, they, they can’t.” This is exactly what Greeks thought about Persians.[00:14:04] They were like, “Well, these decadent, soft people-” Well- “... are naturally suited to monarchy” ... hold on. “They can’t handle free citizenship. They can’t handle-” They[00:14:11] Malcolm Collins: can’t handle free citizenship. You’re like[00:14:11] Simone Collins: literally pointing out something that’s not true. I, I point[00:14:12] Malcolm Collins: out, Simone, I said that about Arabs, not about- Oh, sorry, Arabs[00:14:15] not about Persians, okay?[00:14:17] Simone Collins: Not about Persians. Well, well, right. I’m saying the Greeks said it about Persians. It’s just that y- you know, you’re not the first person to say that a people cannot handle you know, free citizenship and voting. Some people just need a king. And by[00:14:28] Malcolm Collins: the way, for the people who think that I’m being offensive there, go to our episode on it, the statistics on- No,[00:14:32] Simone Collins: you, you make a compelling argument[00:14:34] Malcolm Collins: on how many times it has been the, we have achieved stable democracies in the Arab world is astonishingly low when contrasted with Northern Europe.[00:14:42] Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. O- of course Athens was just sort of considered the cultural capital of the world, but I... My understanding from the various accounts and readings and stuff is that they, everyone saw them as like that stuck-up girl who thinks so much of herself.[00:14:57] And yes, she gets all As and she’s valedictorian and she’s the richest girl in class and she’s super popular, but everyone’s like, “Ugh, like, stop. You’re f- this is tedious.” And everyone saw Spartans a- a- I mean, rightfully so, because here you have Spartans. Sparta’s really different. They, they do not allow foreigners.[00:15:14] They’re very afraid that outsiders are gonna spy on them. They have their harsh, militarized way of life. You know, both girls and young boys are training heavily. The girls are very athletic, in contrast to the classic Athenian woman who, like, the, the perfect Athenian woman you’d never see. She would stay in the back house until she married, and then go to someone else’s, like, back of their house and y- you just...[00:15:35] They were very absent from public life, not very, not very vocal. And then, you know, you have Spartans who are property owners, who are strong and athletic and out there. And here actually you can see, ‘cause you just don’t see statues of or- Mm ... depictions of Athenian women like this. This is a statue of a Spartan running girl[00:15:56] like just a female athlete.[00:15:58] You would n- see [00:16:00] this in a museum and you would immediately know this is from Ancient Greece, she must be Spartan, ‘cause, like, you don’t, you don’t have, like, girls athletically running. This is not a, this is not a thing that people do. So- I, I need to see where this was founded, but Professor Rufus Fears speaking for The Great Courses was like, everyone...[00:16:19] ‘Cause in, in in Athens you would get a wet nurse or something. Everyone wanted a, a Spartan wet nurse ‘cause they were the toughest and they wanted- Yeah ... their babies to be drinking the milk of these strong women if they’re like, especially male babies, right? You don’t want that weak Athenian milk.[00:16:31] You don’t[00:16:32] Malcolm Collins: want that weak... Yeah. Yeah. No, the, the, this is, this comes to an episode where we point out that cultures that are often more militaristic, typically the more martial a culture is, the more gender equal it is between men and women. Yeah. And, and we go into why in, in that episode, but you’re seeing this here with Ath- Spartan women versus Athenian women.[00:16:51] Simone Collins: Yeah. So the Ionian Greeks, do you, can you imagine what they, people thought of them?[00:16:55] Malcolm Collins: They’re[00:16:56] Simone Collins: boring. I don’t know. These are the coastal cities under Persian rule. What, what... They, they obviously thought they were cowards. Oh, yeah. That[00:17:00] Malcolm Collins: they’re, they’re[00:17:01] Simone Collins: effem. They’re weak, they’re softened, the- their mild climate has made them indolent.[00:17:07] That they’re, they’re good talkers, but they’re terrible warriors. And then the Boeotians were just seen as hicks, like those just like- Who were the[00:17:13] Malcolm Collins: Boeotians?[00:17:14] Simone Collins: Especially Thebans. Like, y- you’re more aware of Thebans. Oh, The- Like the band of Thebes ...[00:17:18] Malcolm Collins: they were seen as hicks? They were the ones going to[00:17:19] Simone Collins: go to Thebes?[00:17:19] Yeah, like, well, they were brutish country hicks. They were agricultural, they were uncultured, they were uncosmopolitan. Keep in mind, most of the people, like, writing history are the Athenians with all their books and all their,[00:17:31] Malcolm Collins: you know, temples. No, there were a lot of Ionian Greeks who wrote history.[00:17:33] Like, Herodotus was an Ionian, as far as I remember.[00:17:36] Simone Collins: Right? I don’t know. That sounds just like, you know how New Zealanders, like, you just see them outside of New Zealand all the time because they have to travel the world. Maybe that kind of fits with the whole, you know, had to leave thing. But I don’t know.[00:17:48] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. It, well, so he wrote in Ionic dialect and was deeply influenced by Ionic philosophical and historical traditions.[00:17:55] Simone Collins: Mm.[00:17:55] Malcolm Collins: But he was technically in a region settled by the Dorian[00:17:59] Simone Collins: Greeks.[00:17:59] Malcolm Collins: Ah. But I, I don’t know if they would’ve seen a, a difference. But yeah, continue.[00:18:03] Simone Collins: Okay.[00:18:04] We’re gonna move on to Ancient Rome because this is where I actually was able to get some good graffiti at least one instance that I, I really loved in terms of, like, a stere- ‘cause I, it’s not just finding old graffiti, which is really hard to find, okay? But it’s finding old graffiti that depicts racial stereotypes and, and Romans did a lot of graffiti, they did a lot of trash talk.[00:18:22] If you go, for example, to the, the Roman baths in Bath, in England, in Somerset you can see some of the inscriptions on little pieces of, I think, what is it? Copper? That people wrote on and then dropped into a, like, sacred pool at a temple for a goddess. You know, like, so they would, like, write on a thing, throw it in the water for the god to hear, and the things people wrote, once they carefully unfolded and read these inscriptions, were so fricking petty.[00:18:50] They’re like, “Make so and so blind for stealing my bag,” and like, you know, it was just people fricking hated each other. Like, we’ve been petty forever. But that’s not about a racial stereotype or it’s not about a group-based st- stereotype. But here’s, is something delightful, and I just love, you know, graffitis that also looks like such terrible drawings.[00:19:08] But tell me what you see, Malcolm.[00:19:11] Malcolm Collins: Okay. Okay, okay, okay. Sorry. Oh, let’s see. Open it up here.[00:19:17] Simone Collins: Yeah, what are you looking at here?[00:19:18] Malcolm Collins: Oh, I know this one. I’ve seen this one before. This is so, so I don’t even have to interpret it because I know this particular art so well.[00:19:26] Simone Collins: This is famous, yeah.[00:19:26] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, but this is supposed to be somebody being crucified with a donkey head, and then somebody else is worshiping the person being crucified with a donkey head.[00:19:36] Simone Collins: And the, the writing says, “Go worship your donkey god,” because that is what Romans thought of both Jews and Christians. Well- This is more Christians in this case ...[00:19:46] Malcolm Collins: why the donkey? Why the... the, do we know?[00:19:49] Simone Collins: You know, it, it wasn’t very clear. But it was just a well-known slur at the time that both Jews and Christians worshiped a donkey.[00:19:57] This was an accusation that had a name. It was called [00:20:00] an- anility. And they used the donkey head to mock Christ and th- th- this is specifically, like, it’s an insult to... Again, ‘cause Romans are, like, so freaking petty and they’re very targeted. But it’s, it’s an insult toward Alexamenos. But yeah, it’s like, go worship your donkey god, Alexamenos.[00:20:16] Malcolm Collins: Go worship your donkey god, you nerd. Oh, right. And then the guy in the picture looks like a real guy. I know, I know. Like, he looks like he could have been a person.[00:20:24] Simone Collins: It’s, it’s, it’s wonderful. It, it is,[00:20:25] Malcolm Collins: Just trying to go about his normal life ... yeah,[00:20:27] Simone Collins: just trying to worship his donkey god. I mean, okay, let me, let me actually double-click on anility, because yeah, where did they get donkey?[00:20:35] Maybe ‘cause Jesus rode into... But then why would the Jews worship a donkey? Worship of donkey and by extension, figurative devotion to fooln- foolishness. The core meaning in its literal sense means worship of the ass or donkey as a deity. Mommy? Yeah, buddy? In antiquity, pagan authors in the Hellenistic and Roman worlds accused Jews and later early Christians of anolatry, claiming they worshiped a donkey or donkey-headed idol. Writers such as Tacitus mention this slur, and Christian apologists like Tertullian and Minicius Felix refer to it in order to refute it.[00:21:15] W- why? Why did they think Jews worshiped[00:21:29] A donkey. Maybe it was, you know, one of those things that just like if donkeys were fools. Th- they’re not really saying that Jews worshiped a donkey, but donkeys were just a representation of like y- this is a ridiculous religion. Ancient- No, Tex. Ancient Greek and Roman authors did not seriously objur- observe Jews worshiping a donkey.[00:21:51] They developed that idea as a hostile slur that blended ethnographic fantasy, wordplay, and polemic about aniconic worship. Anicon- aniconic.[00:22:02] Malcolm Collins: Aniconic.[00:22:04] Simone Collins: Okay. That’s a new word. Aniconic, ladies and gentlemen. So yeah, no, the, the, it’s just, it’s like an intentional slur that has no basis in reality, but they’re like, “What are you doing?”[00:22:17] Okay, fine. He’s just, just here for the ride. He’s- Oh, not if you do that, though. Let’s get back to what Romans thought of people. Jews were seen as basically stubborn, cliquey weirdos. They were portrayed as very, like, hard-headed subjects with this herd mentality who were fiercely attached to their weird, unique customs such as circumcision and, and deity laws and not, not killing babies.[00:22:48] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, Tactica complained about that.[00:22:50] Simone Collins: Yeah, like, what, who, who are these crazy people who don’t even kill their weak babies? And then all outsiders, of course, were barbarians. Greeks were admirable but contemptible. Like, they were, like, you know, of course the source of philosophy and art and literature.[00:23:06] They were nerds. Yeah, yeah. They were- Oh my God, that is totally, yeah, they were nerds. They were seen as, as talkative and tricky and morally weak and effeminate and prone to luxury and unreliable and more. Like brainy but soft. They were, they were nerds. Greeks, the OG nerds. I love[00:23:23] Malcolm Collins: that. The OG nerds.[00:23:23] Don’t trust them.[00:23:24] Simone Collins: Phoenicians- I[00:23:25] Malcolm Collins: wouldn’t trust a Greek. Not back then, I’ll tell you what.[00:23:27] Simone Collins: They- Oh, for sure not. Yeah. Oh my God, so was Nero a weeb? The Rome, Rome was the America of the time. No, like Nero then must have been kind of weeb-like, right? ‘Cause he’s like, “I just love the Greeks so much.” “And I wanna be an actor.”[00:23:38] Was that just his thing? No, a[00:23:39] Malcolm Collins: good way to think of the way the Romans viewed the Greeks is the way Americans view Europeans.[00:23:44] Simone Collins: Oh my gosh, okay. Yes ...[00:23:47] Malcolm Collins: like cultured but like effeminate and weak, right? Like a failure. Like[00:23:51] Simone Collins: they are not- Like, yeah ...[00:23:52] Malcolm Collins: really set to run an empire. Come on, man. No, that’s horrific.[00:23:56] America needs to come back on and crack some heads because [00:24:00] they’re being ruled by their women again.[00:24:02] Simone Collins: Oh gosh, that is, that is such a thing. Yeah, let’s see. Just generally like Syrians and Carthaginians and Phoenicians were seen as sleazy merchants. But I, I think like, honestly, and this is showing up as a pattern, anyone who kind of traded with your empire who was like an outside trading partner was like, ooh, suspicious.[00:24:20] I don’t know. But this makes sense because the dynamic is this is a trading partner. Like, they obviously wanna get the better end of a deal. You’re negotiating, so you’re going to have some level of distrust. So I’m seeing like this pattern, right? There’s the Libyans and then there’s the Phoenicians and...[00:24:35] Oh, Egyptians though were seen as- Very ancient and sinister with their weird superstition and their arrogant priests and their... They, they, they really didn’t... Also, Rome kind of resented them, and I think that it’s similar to how China can resent the US and, and, and other countries, ‘cause Egypt was kind of the breadbasket for Rome.[00:24:58] They were really, e- especially, es- especially during certain times, dependent on them for food. So it was like, well, they need Egyptian grain, but they’re also these, like, weird, mysterious, superstitious people, and they were kind of, like, fascinated and disturbed by them. It was as if, like, you need all of your food from, or, like, a lot of your food from some, like...[00:25:21] Oh, like your kid in the cafeteria, and your parents always neglect to pack your lunch, but, like, this creepy goth girl in the corner- Mm-hmm ... or, like, Wiccan is like, “Yes, come, and I will read your tarot cards.” And it’s like, well I need the food and she’s kinda hot, but she really creeps me out. So I don’t want this.[00:25:40] And I think Cleopatra, I, I read, I’ve read multiple biographies about her, really played up this stereotype and used it well because[00:25:49] Malcolm Collins: she spent- You know, she’s like, like the goth, she was the goth girl of her era, right?[00:25:51] Simone Collins: Like- She was the hot goth of her era, 100%. Very dramatic.[00:25:56] Malcolm Collins: I’ll kill yourself with, like, a snake or whatever, right?[00:25:58] Like-[00:25:58] Simone Collins: 100%. I mean, she was totally the hot goth of her time, and very, like, that girl, too, in high school who would, like, sleeps with all the guys because she, like, understands how to play their tune and use them to her advantage. She’s- And do the mysterious, gothy thing. Ugh, yeah, for real. She was, yeah,[00:26:15] so spooky.[00:26:16] That was Egyptians. They were spooky.[00:26:20] Spooky.[00:26:21] Yeah. And then in general, like, Persians and Parthians were viewed as, as pretty formidable enemies and kind of that, I think similarly to how Egyptians viewed Libyans, it’s like, “Oh, well, you are a formidable enemy. Like, I worry about you.” I think similarly to how Greeks viewed Persians of like, “Ah, I mean, you’re effete and pretty, and, you know, your people are soft, but I gotta watch out for you.”[00:26:46] The Gauls were seen as these noble savages. So while they were seen as, like, hot-headed and brave noble savages, they were also seen as, like, sort of impetuous and simple and prone to rashness, kind of like a- Yes ... the big meatheads, I guess. The meatheads of the North. They were the, the jock on the, the, the high school team.[00:27:04] They would just kind of follow orders, I guess, from some leader, from like a bunch- I’m trying to[00:27:07] Malcolm Collins: get more Roman Jewish stereotypes than you had, ‘cause I don’t, I don’t like, yeah, I don’t think you, you, you go, you had enough there. Continue.[00:27:12] Simone Collins: Of my Roman Jews? Yeah. And then the, the, but the Germans were seen as even more savage versions of the Gauls, and I know that, like, Germany wasn’t a thing yet, but, like, people from that re- region that is now Germany, they were like the extra, extra Gauls.[00:27:26] They were super Gauls. They were even more savage, even more unconqueror. They were like the, they came from the trees, from the dirt. They were like dirt people and they-[00:27:37] Malcolm Collins: Wait, who were, who were the super golds?[00:27:39] Simone Collins: The Germans The Germans? The, the, well, I mean, like- They were ... the people from the, yeah, and like they, they were, they totally were.[00:27:44] They were both like romanticized by the Romans, who were like, “Ah, these noble savages.” Like, they were kind of the OG noble savage.[00:27:51] Malcolm Collins: So, so, okay, I, I pulled up their, their Jewish stereotypes.[00:27:54] Simone Collins: Oh, no. They- Okay, go on ...[00:27:55] Malcolm Collins: were clannish, antisocial, and misanthropic. Specifically [00:28:00] Jews were accused of refusing to mix with others, sitting apart at meals, sleeping separately, and showing loyalty only to fellow Jews.[00:28:07] Tacitus, the harshest source- Didn’t I say[00:28:09] Simone Collins: that quickly? ...[00:28:10] Malcolm Collins: wrote that a- and Tacitus, by the way, was the, the biggest source. He was the one who complained that they wouldn’t kill their babies. That they sit apart at meals and they sleep apart. And they were prone to lust. They abstained from for- oh, he says, “While they’re prone to lust, they abstain from foreign women.”[00:28:25] I love that’s one of the problems. They’re prone to lust, but only other Jews. But[00:28:28] Simone Collins: they’re, they’re not taking our women. Like, what? Really? Like, where are you going with that? He claimed[00:28:32] Malcolm Collins: they showed com- compassion only to each other and were hostile to all others. Cicero complained that the Jews stick together and had undue influence in Roman assemblies.[00:28:42] That’s hilarious. Okay. Oh, my God. So, the Jews control all of Rome. They’re all in our assemblies, guys. They, they did not like the, the pork taboo was frequently ridiculed. The incision was ri- ri- ridiculed. Sabbath observance ridiculed, and the a- aniconism that you talked about. Yeah.[00:28:58] Simone Collins: Yeah,[00:28:58] Malcolm Collins: they were- And they really hated, and see our episode- Weirdos[00:29:00] if you’re not familiar with this, but the most common complaint about Jews is that they were always attempting to convert Romans, which obviously has changed in Judaism, and see our episode, The Question that Breaks Judaism, where we go over the history of this change in Judaism.[00:29:13] Simone Collins: Yeah. It’s a, th- there’s a, abundant coverage of this.[00:29:19] But let’s move on to medieval Europe. Basically there were these, and, and this is interesting, the barbarians changed a little and it was kind of like they’re barely Christian. It, it, the, the primary concern with barbarians, like the Irish, the Welsh, the Slavs, Baltic people, there’s like, are they even Christian?[00:29:36] Like, what are, what are these monsters? But that’s kind of like the measuring stick is how Christ- are these good Christians? But Anglo-norml- Norman writers in England and, and also people living in what’s now Germany, would just routinely depict nearby frontier peoples which, you know, were Scottish Irish Slavs- Welcome[00:29:55] more far northen- northern people as just basically violent pastoralists, pirates, plunderers. They were resistant to law and agriculture. Like, “Do you even farm, bro?” And, and needing- Do you even[00:30:07] Malcolm Collins: farm, bro? ...[00:30:08] Simone Collins: to be conquested sorry, conquered, and they needed... It wasn’t just conquest, it was also missionary work.[00:30:14] Like, “We gotta send, we gotta... These guys need Jesus.” Like, they were, they were really worried about them. They were, they needed to, to be civilized, they needed to climb the... Well, I, I’m giving you stuff, but you’re just throwing it. Climb the rungs of civilization and, and, and be shown a better way I haven’t heard back, love. But yeah, this, so this, this, they need to be civilized stereotype was also used to excuse or justify expansion into these territories which I, I think is, like, a f- fairly ex- to be expected pattern, right?[00:30:49] Like, of course they would. That, that makes sense. We, you can kind of see, here’s an image. Like, there, there, again, there’s not much, like, imagery, but here are some engravings by Albrecht Dürer during the 1500s of-[00:31:03] Malcolm Collins: Okay ...[00:31:03] Simone Collins: pastoral people.[00:31:05] You have to see just other Roman graffiti that I found that wasn’t racist, but could be racist, ‘cause look at nose man. Looks just so weirdly modern. And[00:31:17] I, I forget what- Noseband.[00:31:19] Malcolm Collins: That’s very hilarious.[00:31:20] Simone Collins: Yeah. Someone didn’t like him or his floppy nose. Here are the pastoralists. So I don’t know, they just look kind of like they’re- ... they’re dancing. One’s playing a bagpipe. They’re just kinda like, “Eh.” Like, I don’t know. Lazy[00:31:34] Malcolm Collins: vagabonds.[00:31:34] Simone Collins: Like, I know exactly what you mean.[00:31:35] Lazy, yeah. Lazy vagabonds, I guess, is kind of the look they’re going for. So that’s the closest I could get to, like, a, a, a picture of them. But the Scots especially were just seen not only as, you know, among these things of, like, more in need of civilization and everything, but, like, southern Scotland was seen- Mm[00:31:53] as, like, kind of cool. Mm. Like, kinda chill. They’re all right. And then, like, northern Scotland was like, “No, they’re, they’re the worst. They’re poor and terrifying.” [00:32:00] But broadly speaking, they were seen as militarily dangerous, but just poor and less civilized. And they just had these small, poor towns and these people in their, in their swaddling swaddling...[00:32:15] What do you, what do you call them? Kilts? Not kilts. What are, like, the actual garments that people used to wear in Scotland that you wrap around? They’re very long.[00:32:23] You know what I’m talking about?[00:32:25] Malcolm Collins: No, I[00:32:25] Simone Collins: forget what you call- Yeah, you don’t care about[00:32:26] She’s talking about a great kilt[00:32:27] Malcolm Collins: your garments. I, I for- I forget the name. I know what you’re talking about.[00:32:30] Simone Collins: Yeah. I was thinking of Trump’s phrase swaddling hijab, which I just thought was the best phrase ever. But yeah, they were very, like, persistent enemies, and there, there was a lot of understanding of them being stubborn and warlike. The Jews, here’s where, like, the stuff, the antisemitic stuff gets I, I guess, good and what, where you were expecting something.[00:32:49] Mm. What I did not expect to see was a very big recurring theme with the Jews. Do you know what it is? Have you seen, like, older antisemitic art, like 1300s to 1700s? Is it[00:33:01] Malcolm Collins: their stupid hats?[00:33:02] Simone Collins: No. No. What is it? It involves a farm animal.[00:33:07] Malcolm Collins: I don’t know what it is then, no.[00:33:09] Simone Collins: So for whatever reason, pig suckling is just all over the pl- the suckling, the, the, lots of...[00:33:16] Like, here, here’s an example. This-[00:33:17] Malcolm Collins: So they think the Jews drink milk directly from pigs? That was the stereotype?[00:33:21] Simone Collins: Yeah, no. Check, check this out. So this is a church in Wittenberg. This is actually a church where Martin Luther preached once, and there was a fairly recent controversy where people were like, “Dude, this, this carving in this, this 1300s carving in this church is, like, super antisemitic.[00:33:38] It shows a bunch of Jews suckling from a pig.”[00:33:40] What do you think it is?[00:33:41] Octavian Collins: It’s like people, like raise people.[00:33:44] Simone Collins: Oh, like I’m raising you?[00:33:46] Octavian Collins: Yeah.[00:33:47] Simone Collins: So racism- Yeah ... is just another word for pronatalism. For raising.[00:33:52] Octavian Collins: Pronatalism? ‘[00:33:53] Simone Collins: Cause we’re raising. Raising. We’re raising him.[00:33:55] Malcolm Collins: We’re raising him. And we believe in racism. Raise-ism. Yeah. Raise-ism. I like that.[00:34:00] Simone Collins: Where was I? Right, suckling pigs. Right, so the, the, this, this, this church in Wittenberg, by the way, wasn’t taken down. Antisemitism is alive and well where[00:34:10] Malcolm Collins: the- Thank God. What a horrible thing if they took down something from the 1300s. It,[00:34:12] Simone Collins: it would be. It would be.[00:34:13] Like, it’s un- it’s helpful to understand the history of bias. So I-[00:34:18] Malcolm Collins: And we don’t know that Jews at that time period didn’t suckle from pigs.[00:34:22] Simone Collins: Right? I mean, h- so here’s another one. Mm. I, this, this is really pretty explicit. It’s kinda hard to make out what’s happening in this antisemitic engraving from the, I think this is also the 1300s.[00:34:36] And I couldn’t get a great translation. But it’s[00:34:40] there’s someone e- eating something out of the butt of what I believe is also a pig. Another person is suckling from its very full teat. People have got horns because you got the Jew horns. The Jew horns- Mm ... of course appear. Or[00:34:54] Malcolm Collins: that, that only makes sense.[00:34:56] Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, duh. And there, there’s what appears to be possibly a dead baby at the top, so maybe here’s where we get the you know- Blood libel ... the Jews and the, and the babies. I don’t know. It’s kinda hard to tell. I don’t speak...[00:35:10] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I mean, this, this puts modern antisemitism to shame, you know?[00:35:14] Simone Collins: Here’s another image of- The way we- ... more Jews suckling from a pig. What, like this I, just blindsided me. Okay. Like, why, why are we, why,[00:35:26] Malcolm Collins: And they’re dressed like the freaking babies from that one skit, like, Ozymandias or whatever the, which is also hilarious. And one of them is, I guess, looking at the poo, and the other ones are suckling from its teat, and another one is looking at the baby’s butt and they’re in like baby outfits.[00:35:45] Speaker 13: What is the meaning of life? Well, then what’s your answer?[00:35:49] Speaker 14: I’ll never be able to say something as profound as my brother. My desire for my words to have sterile, clinical, literal meanings is sort of a wall that [00:36:00] prevents me from venturing close to people.[00:36:02] Sometimes I think the most direct route to another’s heart is through nonsense, and nonsense has always eluded me.[00:36:09] Speaker 13: Well, to you, then, what is the direct literal meaning of life?[00:36:11] Speaker 14: I hope before I am dead and my atoms are collected back into the neutron star at the center of the baby dimension, that I will discover why the love that I have for my brother was not enough for him to feel whole when that love is all that sustains me and all that I think I will ever have.[00:36:36] Speaker 13: I think what he meant to say was we like to have fun[00:36:40] Speaker 14: and get tickles.[00:36:41] Speaker 13: Okay.[00:36:42] Speaker 14: Right? Fun and tickles.[00:36:45] Simone Collins: Yeah, and this, I, I think I, I did not encounter any level of, we’ll say hatred or racism or othering against any group at all that I did with Jews during medieval to Renaissance Europe, That’s[00:37:01] Malcolm Collins: fascinating that, like, Jews really, like, the, the West learned how to racism with Jews.[00:37:06] Simone Collins: Oh, no, like for real, this was when, like, they went hard on them.[00:37:12] ‘Cause a- again, I, I had difficulty finding a whole lot of hate on other groups. It was like, “Oh, you know, those bumpkins.”[00:37:18] Malcolm Collins: No, what, what I also find funny about- Next slide ... this is just how extreme it is compared- It[00:37:22] Simone Collins: is ... to modern antisemitism. Well, and Malcolm, let me be clear. It, it’s not just this weird pig suckling thing.[00:37:27] It is that they, they basically thought they were, like, not human. Like, they had all these things that they, they thought they were like, they had weird bodily traits that other humans didn’t have, like that they were hemorrhoidal and had, had monthly bleeding that wasn’t- Just for women. They, they were very seen as, as, as melancholic and greedy and spiritually obstinate and this, this was like a hereditary genetic, like they, they were very much seen as subhuman, like as, as, as monsters.[00:37:59] And then this, this fell- That’s fascinating ... fed into more broad notions that Jews were these fixed outsiders that you, you could not integrate them into a Christian new Israel. And they were associated very much with usury and corruption. And actually not Alex actually was just reminding me the other day in our XDMs that it’s really, really weird, this idea among evangelical Americans that like, “Well, we want Jews in Israel because, you know, we need that for the second coming.”[00:38:28] This whole idea, like in, in Europe he, he reminded me, us that like in Europe, no, just the, the idea is that Christians are the descendants of Jews. And only, like you need Christians in Israel. You don’t need Jews in Israel.[00:38:42] Malcolm Collins: Like- Yeah. The, the Crusades were not about re-winning Israel for the Jews For[00:38:46] Simone Collins: Jews.[00:38:47] Yeah, exactly.[00:38:48] So that is something that’s powerful ... I mean,[00:38:49] Malcolm Collins: it’s a, it’s a different interpretation. And I think it is a, if I’m gonna be honest, I think the evangelical interpretation of those particular passages seems to be more literalist and as intended than the interpretation that the Catholic Church took in the medieval period.[00:39:06] The Catholic Church took a bunch of crazy positions in the medieval period that are just not heavily supported by the Bible. Yeah. And a lot of Christians forget just how much of that is, is... Like, I always point out like the Trinity, for example, is just not that well-supported by the Bible as a concept.[00:39:25] It’s not, the Bible isn’t specifically antagonistic to the Trinity. It doesn’t argue against it. But like it came out as a concept like 300 years later. And so when people were like, “Oh, you guys don’t believe in the Trinity, you’re not real Christians,” I’m like Excuse me ... that was not, that was not a thing for most of the early Christians Yeah.[00:39:35] Not[00:39:36] Simone Collins: my canon. Yeah,[00:39:36] Malcolm Collins: exactly.[00:39:43] Yeah. It’s like, that, that is a, that is a... Well, I think a lot of Christians forget the stuff that came in in the early councils and the stuff that’s actually in the Bible, and they conflate the two really heavily.[00:39:52] Simone Collins: Totally. I just sent you some more. I sent you one more Jew one. Oh. Oh, okay ... again, of Jews.[00:39:57] Again, they’re stuck. They can’t get off this pig. And [00:40:00] one of them looks like he wants to lick the pi- the pig’s- A hole on the wrong side. Three are suckling from the teat. The other one is chewing on its tail and riding it backwards[00:40:11] Malcolm Collins: Oh, thank God.[00:40:12] Simone Collins: They’re just like they... I’ve never seen racist art this explicit.[00:40:17] So as a palate cleanser, I’m gonna th- I also sent you my fav- Oh ... my favorite ones. This- A bird ... chicken, I guess. The chicken.[00:40:24] Malcolm Collins: Chicken. Okay.[00:40:25] Simone Collins: There’s the guy. Okay. I really like the guy. I[00:40:28] Malcolm Collins: think, I think m- I think Octavia would’ve drawn this chicken, just-[00:40:31] Simone Collins: It, it looks like something that Octavia would’ve drawn.[00:40:33] I think my favorite’s just like the little dude. Not the one with the hat, but just like the dude with the sword. Oh, yeah. Looks very much like a certain internet style. You know what I mean? It’s kind of a- Yeah ... kind of Invader Zim. It, it’s kind of giving Invader Zim. And I-[00:40:45] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it definitely has the j-[00:40:46] style of modern internet art, actually.[00:40:48] Simone Collins: Yeah. I’m like, “Oh my gosh,” like nothing is new. Nothing is new. I love, I[00:40:52] Malcolm Collins: love that- But actually, the, the guy with the hat also has a style of like some modern cartoons.[00:40:56] Simone Collins: Totally. Like, what, did, were these just over educated medieval art scholars who had to like get a commercial job and ended up illustrating for cartoons?[00:41:05] What is going on? But also I guess humans just draw certain ways, so who cares? I, I don’t know. But I found that very entertaining. Moving on to Renaissance Europe. This is what you alluded to earlier, the vice concept emerged. We have the French vice, the English vice, and the Italian vice. Cool. Which is delightful.[00:41:26] I think most people came to learn about the French vice in various movies and shows about the, the court of King Henry VIII and the Boleyn sisters. And that is because they spent some of their youth in the French royal court, which was the source of this reputation of the French vice. It was seen as this very A sexually loose place where he’d learn all sorts of tricks that the very prudish English women didn’t know.[00:41:57] I will leave this to your imagination, but imagine, and of course, this is what people were saying, we don’t know what actually happened in the bedroom. Mm. But imagine King Henry VIII’s delight when he discovers these young women from the French court who can do things to him that he couldn’t even imagine after spending all this time with his Catholic wife, Isabel.[00:42:17] Right, her name was Isabel. So yeah, th- this was like, it was very much a reputation. I think this is really downstream of the fact that the court the French court in general involved a lot of mistresses. So there was this depiction of like, well, there’s just, where there’s mistresses, there’s gotta be a lot of sex, and where there’s a lot of sex, you gotta have a lot of like, weird stuff going on.[00:42:37] Gotta have it ... and even to this day, you have French kissing. Mm-hmm. You know, and there’s still reputations. French[00:42:41] Malcolm Collins: kissing, yes. They[00:42:42] Simone Collins: invented it. Right? I mean, come on. Like, but think, it’s, it’s like some English person who’s never used tongue who’s like, “Well, this must be the French style.” You know, like, this thing holds.[00:42:50] It holds really well which is absolutely delightful. And then the important thing about these vice reputations, the, the English vice, the Italian vice, et cetera, is that once the seeds were planted in Renaissance Europe, in the early modern era, they just started to compound and grow on each other.[00:43:09] Okay. So after this became kind of a thing because of some, you know, like French court women kind of being seen as sexually manipulative ‘cause there are all these mistresses floating around, you started to get French literature really leaning into it, and there was this rise of this international publishing industry, so you also have the printing press making this worse.[00:43:28] But around the mid-1600s, all these erotic and semi-pornographic French books started entering the Germanic region. They started entering the UK. All these, all these basically French romantic and erotic smut started- Mm-hmm ... entering the rest of Europe. Really? And the printing presses made it super pervasive. So imagine if, like, suddenly books exist a- and, and all the romance novels that are really smutty come from France.[00:43:56] You- you’re gonna start to, like, build on this reputation. Yeah ... and y- [00:44:00] yeah, I had[00:44:00] Malcolm Collins: no idea- Well, I mean, for the longest time when I was younger, I remember the French women were known for being, like, slutty and not shaving their armpits.[00:44:08] Simone Collins: You know, some people find that hot. I don’t, but so it’s got... Some people like it.[00:44:11] Malcolm Collins: I’ve, I’ve heard it. Yeah, some people find bush hot, too. I d- I don’t understand.[00:44:15] Simone Collins: But anyway, these, these dirty books were basically, like, French... And, and I think French people leaned into the stereotype ‘cause they kinda liked being a little sexy. And so that’s, that’s it. And a very similar thing... I, so I didn’t know about, I didn’t know about the French literature compounding the issue and the printing press really fomenting it.[00:44:34] I also didn’t know why the Italian vice became such a big thing. So from the later Middle Ages onward, outsiders started to associate certain Italian cities, not all but especially Florence, as having widespread male same-sex love and social networks that made these relationships super visible and pretty common.[00:44:58] So basically there w- there was, like, the first gay scene was in Florence.[00:45:02] Speaker 6: , they invented gayness.[00:45:04][00:45:04] Speaker 17: I wonder if having Italy be disproportionately gay during the period of, , the development of many key Catholic institutions and doctrines is what played such a large part in such a large portion of the Catholic priesthood being same-sex attracted and, , the sort of large gay networks that many people have called out.[00:45:26] Milo Yiannopoulos, for example, wrote a book on the, , Lavender Mafia, as he called it, and we recently did an episode on the, , quote-unquote “gay Jewish,” , priests who ended up writing core Catholic doctrine. , But , the, these individuals’ ability to so thoroughly gain control of the church and its doctrine and teachings[00:45:42] Simone Collins: Maybe they... Gay people, chime in in the comments if there’s some other first gay scene, but, like, it seems like that really happened.[00:45:49] Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, obviously there’s, there’s, there’s, like, pre-modern gay scenes, like Thebes and stuff like that, but yeah, yeah.[00:45:54] Simone Collins: Sure. Well, yeah. Well, allegedly. We don’t, we don’t know for sure. But there’s evidence from court records- We do know pretty sure about the[00:45:59] Malcolm Collins: Theban troops ...[00:46:01] Simone Collins: the Band of Thebes? Is there really? ‘Cause I remember, like, getting so excited about it and being like, “This is my yaoi romance. Let’s go. I need to learn more.”[00:46:08] And they were like, “Well, it wasn’t... We’re not sure.” We don’t know. We’re not sure how great or long- They’re not sure what happened during[00:46:15] Malcolm Collins: Creta ... what it was, but there was- Yeah ... a period where it happened[00:46:19] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah.[00:46:20] Speaker 15: So I decided to go over all of the primary evidence we have for this, and it’s just demonstrable. , One, that the Sacred Band of Thebes existed. We know this because they helped hold the line against the Spartan king, Agis II in 378. , They, at the Battle of Tegyra in 375 BC under Polyeidus, , the 300 routed a much larger Spartan force.[00:46:44] For the first time, Spartans were defeated. , Spartans were defeated a much s- by a much smaller force, first of all. , They were instrumental in the stunning Theban victory over Spartans at Leuctra 371, , which ended Spartans’ dominance over Greece. And the unit fought other campaign until it was ultimately annihilated at the Battle of Chaeronea in 338 BC by the m- army of Philip II , of Macedon.[00:47:10] So, , for a long period, we have evidence of them existing. In terms of them being an armory of gay lovers, , this was attested by Plutarch, Dionysius, Plato, Xenophon, and other attestations appear, including Polyaenus, Athenaeus, Diodotus Siculus, , and several others. So there’s at least six ancient writers that describe the erotic pairing.[00:47:37] , So, , it... And we have arch- archaeological evidence. There is the Lion of Chaeronea, - monetary funeral lion, , and in 1879 to 1880, Greek archeologist, , Pantagathus Stamicus excavated a site and found 254 skeletons arranged in rows, seven rows, with some pairs having arms linked in hands clasped consistent with the, , what, what [00:48:00] we’re aware of with this.[00:48:01] , So yeah, this is almost certainly not a legend and was a real force, , in which, , it was made up , of gay men and was able to dramatically outperform forces that were thought of as... Like the Spartans’ famous saying, if 300 men beat, like, 3,000 , Persians, and then apparently they were beat by a fraction of their own number of the Band of Thebes.[00:48:20] Speaker 16: Who then were themselves beat by the hillbilly Macedonians, showing that hillbilly style always beats all other styles. , Also fun fact, , of my genetic chart, the place where my ancestry, if you go to the pre-English part of my ancestry, it traces back from Macedon[00:48:38] Simone Collins: Anyway well, and yeah, and I guess gay romance was kind of a thing throughout ancient Greece and Rome.[00:48:43] Never mind. Totally, I went ... Oh, God, and then, like, never mind. Yeah. Pervasive. Never mind. Totally wrong. It’s, the world has been gay for all of history. Oh, God, yeah. Sorry I know.[00:48:51] Malcolm Collins: CR episodes do gays destroy civilization, where we go over this. Like, where, where do we actually see gays in history? When do we see gays in history, and does it precede civilizational collapse?[00:49:00] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:49:00] Malcolm Collins: Basically we find it, it doesn’t appear to.[00:49:03] Simone Collins: Yeah. But there is evidence from, because this is the point at which it’s illegal, court records, witness testimonies, moralizing tracts that, that indicate the presence of active male queer communities in cities like Florence, and this helped cement the idea that this was a more tolerant area.[00:49:25] I mean, it’s kind of ironic, right? ‘Cause they’re like, “No, don’t do it. Stop.” But, but you know, they, they kept doing it. And then by the 17th century, because phrases like the Italian vice became kind of like a, a shorthand[00:49:38] Malcolm Collins: for gay- So gayness was the Italian vice, sleeping around was the French vice, and BDSM was the English vice[00:49:43] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah. I’m gonna get to, to the UK next Okay but yeah because the Italian vice was shorthand for gay stuff then people would start to go to Italy for their gay romespringa. Tourists would, even i- in the early 1800s, sort of revive and spread this stereotype because they were both fascinated and scandalized by this reputation and they, they wanted to check it out and maybe- They’d be[00:50:11] Malcolm Collins: like, “Ooh, oh, the gay, early gay, proto-gay bars and stuff.”[00:50:15] Simone Collins: It kind of was, yeah. It’s like the Cape Cod, Fire Island, Provincetown of of Europe, you know? The,[00:50:21] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So being born in Fire Island definitely made[00:50:23] Simone Collins: you a little bit gay ... the gay, kinky boot of Europe. Yeah Yes. It’s, it’s beautiful. It’s beautiful. So yeah, I, I thi- I didn’t know that that, it was like a, sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy thing.[00:50:32] Although of course the, the court records show that it was a thing they were trying to stop. Now, the English vice is super interesting because first, England was super known for being very puritanical and c- sex negative, and not, not very interesting when it came to sexual relations.[00:50:48] Malcolm Collins: Okay. Okay.[00:50:49] Simone Collins: But then I think part- partly because it was so dour and puritan and sexually repressed and a bunch of sanctimonious proto-Karens freaked out when people did do slightly kinky things, that it then developed this reputation for flagellation, which then evolved into our understanding of, like, BDSM, because there were commentators, like, trying to say, “Don’t do this,” and people, like, criminalizing it.[00:51:20] Do, wait,[00:51:20] Malcolm Collins: wait, what do we, what do we not do? What, where, where, where is the video I’m not supposed to look at?[00:51:26] Simone Collins: What video?[00:51:27] Malcolm Collins: That’s a joke. When you’re describing a video or something like that, it’s like, oh- Oh ... oh.[00:51:32] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah.[00:51:33] Malcolm Collins: Where’s the... Do you... I, I definitely won’t look at that video. Can you just give me the URL for it?[00:51:38] You know the joke. Come on.[00:51:40] Simone Collins: Oh, no, I, I don’t. Maybe it’s a not girl thing. But anyway. Lee[00:51:46] Malcolm Collins: would get it. Lee- my, my bros would get it. You’re just too-[00:51:50] Simone Collins: I am, I am an old... I’m a s- I have the soul of a 62-year-old woman who’s probably not that online. But anyway basically around the 19th [00:52:00] century especially, English pu- public culture became super moralizing, and there were all these laws against male same-sex acts.[00:52:09] And this made Britain a focal point for debates about homosexuality, which is also sometimes seen as the British vice, along with flagellation. And then in that climate, continental commentators would talk about the English vice, refer to specific behaviors, either flagellation or same-sex relations. Because it was, it was more prevalent in, like, a sex work context or in people getting caught and in big trouble for it.[00:52:39] And it kind of happened in a way... It was, like, late onset Italian vice. So Italy really got the brunt of the same-sex reputation, and what really stuck with the UK was the BDSM stuff.[00:52:51] Malcolm Collins: That is not what I’ve heard about how the UK got the BDSM stuff.[00:52:55] Simone Collins: Oh, maybe I was reading the wrong sources. So- So what did you get?[00:52:59] Malcolm Collins: I heard that it came from British private schools that used flogging as a, a punishment mechanism.[00:53:06] Simone Collins: Mm.[00:53:06] There’s this one book that’s called The English Vice that is a picture of a schoolteacher, a male schoolteacher who’s short and stout and has something of a whip. I mean, maybe it was... it came from this rep- I haven’t read the book.[00:53:21] I, I did not read an entire book for this one episode. I’m so sorry. But like- But[00:53:24] Malcolm Collins: apparently, what would happen is the kids would go and do it to each other.[00:53:29] Simone Collins: Oh. Bless them.[00:53:30] Malcolm Collins: Like, that’s, that’s where, like, they’d be like, “Oh, this is kinda kinky,” or whatever. And then it, like, took off as, like, a thing that people would do.[00:53:40] I mean- I think, you know, BDSM and other things- Well, yeah, I mean,[00:53:43] Simone Collins: school paddles were super pervasive. Corporal punishment was extremely pervasive in British schools. So it maybe it’s also that because that form of corporal punishment, especially things like the paddle, were very, very common in British schools, that more people learned they were into it, right?[00:54:02] Like Aella writes in her, on her Substack about how, like, she didn’t think she was that into sex, and then experienced for the first time some forms of, like, BDSM and was like, “Oh my God.” And maybe the thing is, like, in the rest of Europe, there may not have been this exact type of corporal punishment, like being spanked with a paddle or something in the same kind of context.[00:54:24] Also public humiliation, right? So it could just be that certain forms of attempted puritanical punishment in the UK Awoken sexually, a, a bunch of people who if not exposed to that would never have known that it would cause such satisfaction.[00:54:41] Malcolm Collins: Yeah.[00:54:42] Simone Collins: Mm, that makes sense. The rest is not that interesting.[00:54:45] The Muslims were seen as fanatical warriors, basically. They were, like, sexually threatening and religiously dangerous, and you kind of admired them for their courage but you feared them as these enemies of Christiandom. So they were kind of just, like, the big, scary, bad other. Yeah. And Northern Europeans, again, like, sort of barbaric, dull workhorses, not very smart.[00:55:08] And then in contrast, Southerners were seen as very indulgent drama queens. What’s super interesting to me is that this even falls into a microcosm- microcosmic context with places like Italy. Like, within Italy, Northern Italians were seen as industrious but, like, socially cold, and Southerners were seen as lazy and emotional.[00:55:35] Malcolm Collins: Ooh ...[00:55:36] Simone Collins: and yet, like, throughout the rest of Europe also, Northerners were seen as, like, these workers who were kind of, like, boring and stern, and, like, anyone south was seen as, like, oh, like, ooh, so emotional and- ... kinda lazy.[00:55:50] Speaker 20: What’s ironic to me is that this is still portrayed even in my Korean Mawa books, , which shows how cross-cultural it is that you always [00:56:00] have the archetype of the Duke of the North who’s super cold and competent and warlike, and then the Duke of the South who’s often very,[00:56:08] charismatic, , likable, , geniable, funny, , outgoing. , And of course, my favorite is the Duke of the North. That’s why I always have myself drawn that way[00:56:19] Simone Collins: And it’s very interesting to me that, I mean, we have the, I think we have some, done some different episodes about the role that heat and cold play in civilizational development, and that, I mean, clearly if you live in a very cold climate, the, only the conscientious people will survive because only the conscientious people will have built shelters and food supplies that can get them through an extremely cold and frozen winter where no food grows.[00:56:45] And in Southern cultures, you’re more likely to see some maybe more charismatic but indolent people make it through genetic choke holds because they don’t depend so much on delayed gratification and preparation and- Mm ... building in order to survive, because it’s not going to become a frozen tundra for, like, four months out of the year.[00:57:07] So I found that- Yeah ... interesting in that the stereotypes would play out that way. But that[00:57:12] Malcolm Collins: is[00:57:13] Simone Collins: just what[00:57:13] Malcolm Collins: I found. A Russian, if you wanna do Ru- ancient Russian stereotypes, they were seen as incredibly backwards and animalistic. But they also got their butts whipped by, like, every horde that came through their country in, like, really brutalistic ways.[00:57:25] Like the famous case where they, they put a bunch of people under a table and had a feast while crushing them.[00:57:31] Simone Collins: What? That’s horrible ...[00:57:32] Malcolm Collins: th- this was the Mongols or the Huns or one of, one of these groups.[00:57:35] Simone Collins: Yeah, like- Oh, yeah. I didn’t, I didn’t even get into the Mongols. There, there is art of the Mongols being, you know, terrifying.[00:57:41] I feel like that’s something we don’t need to be enlightened on ‘cause we all know it, that they’d be scary.[00:57:46] Malcolm Collins: So we, we could do a whole other episode on the history of American interratia- racism, like the different groups and how they hated each other.[00:57:52] Simone Collins: Yeah. That’d be really fun. If this episode does well and y’all like it, we’ll, we’ll, we’ll get into...[00:57:55] Yeah.[00:57:56] Malcolm Collins: Da, da, da, da, da. Da, da, da, da, da. Da, da, da, da, da. And then, like, do a, a museum where it’s, like, a bunch of, like, Jemi- Aunt Jemimas and stuff like that. Oh,[00:58:06] Simone Collins: my God. Like the- Right? In the Aunt Jemima restaurant. Was it called the Aunt Jemima restaurant, or was it called something else?[00:58:11] Malcolm Collins: Something like that.[00:58:12] Yeah,[00:58:12] Simone Collins: well- I mean, even we had Aunt Jemima syrup. And even I watched, like, Shirley Temple movies where it was like there was some token uncle figure who would, like, sing and dance and just be... It’s so weird. It’s so weird. Yeah, that could be an interesting episode. But also probably gonna get this channel in big trouble, so I don’t know.[00:58:35] I don’t know. No, I don’t[00:58:36] Malcolm Collins: think... I don’t... I mean, we’ll focus mostly on non-discriminated groups in a modern context.[00:58:42] Simone Collins: Well, we just we were declared[00:58:44] racists by our own child.[00:58:47] Malcolm Collins: W- yeah, he said that we raise him, so we’re racists.[00:58:53] Simone Collins: I love that. I love that so much. “What does racism mean, Octavian?” Well, raise. Raise. You raised me. It’s people who raise.” We gotta take that. We gotta take it, yes.[00:59:07] Malcolm Collins: Yes.[00:59:07] Simone Collins: Oh.[00:59:08] Okay, well, I love you. I’m going to go make you pumpkin... No. Yeah, pumpkin curry with bok choy.[00:59:15] Malcolm Collins: With bok choy I think would be great. And you can put it on top of, yeah, whatever[00:59:21] Simone Collins: Do you really want fries or do you really want, well, with bok choy, well, with b- with ri- with bok choy I think you want rice to s- soak up the curry[00:59:29] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I think rice would be the right thing with bok choy. And[00:59:31] Simone Collins: I, and I’m- And I’m just gonna stir-fry the bok choy with the curry, like, the last, like, 30 seconds, right? I don’t wanna cook it that much, right?[00:59:39] You just want- Yeah,[00:59:39] Malcolm Collins: you don’t, you don’t cook the bok choy that long. Okay. All righty. And you might wanna put in a little bit of, like, oyster sauce or something with this so that the, the bok choy works a bit better.[00:59:47] Simone Collins: With the pumpkin curry?[00:59:48] Malcolm Collins: Yes.[00:59:49] Simone Collins: Sure. Let’s do it. Anything else aside from oyst- oyster sauce?[00:59:52] Do you want hoisin sauce as well with, for a little sweetness? I guess the pumpkin brings so much sweet you don’t really need it.[00:59:56] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, you don’t really need that.[00:59:58] Simone Collins: So just oyster sauce. Okay. [01:00:00] We’re on. All right,[01:00:01] Malcolm Collins: love you.[01:00:02] Simone Collins: I love you too.[01:00:03] Malcolm Collins: Bye.[01:00:05] Simone Collins: Bye.[01:00:06] Just so you know, Malcolm is surrounded by empty cans, dirty clothes. It’s, it’s like the trash pit in, from Star Wars, quite literally. That’s what I feel like every time I wade into to try to, like, deliver him-[01:00:18] Malcolm Collins: That’s why[01:00:19] Simone Collins: I hoard, Simone- ... a drink or a smoothie ...[01:00:20] Malcolm Collins: so[01:00:20] Simone Collins: I can bring it[01:00:21] Malcolm Collins: back ...[01:00:21] Simone Collins: and so when Malcolm discovered that his mic stand is not compatible with his heavy, super expensive mic that y’all made us get, thanks, hope you like the sound of it all he decided to counterweight it by taping a Coke can to his mic stand.[01:00:39] And that’s, it, it’s a look. It, it’s a very, I would say, cohesive aesthetic. Any interior decorator, I think, would come to appreciate it.[01:00:48] Malcolm Collins: I hate you so much, Simone.[01:00:50] Simone Collins: When, when Malcolm’s camera goes to full landscape mode, suddenly this short angle of his room disappears, and you can see the trash from like- This[01:01:00] Malcolm Collins: is a problem for, like, interviews and stuff, because literally-[01:01:03] Simone Collins: It is yes.[01:01:04] Yeah, yeah.[01:01:05] No, God, don’t... No, don’t do it. Oh, why did you do... Don’t. Don’t. Go back, go back. Jump scare. Oh, God. Why did you do that? Why did they need to see that? I’m[01:01:18] Malcolm Collins: not like Jordan Peterson. I never told anyone to make their bed, okay?[01:01:22] Simone Collins: Your bed is impossible to make. I was like- There’s no making[01:01:24] Malcolm Collins: it ... live, live in a pigsty.[01:01:26] I don’t care. I, like presumably it does make you marginally more efficient for some people, but it doesn’t for me. Like I, you know, and, and, and people are different, right? Like, you know, some people are better with order. Some people are better with chaos.[01:01:38] Simone Collins: Yeah.[01:01:39] Malcolm Collins: I[01:01:39] Simone Collins: prefer- This, this, this is the, the not Malcolm bedroom.[01:01:42] The, it looks weird because Tech sleeps on the bed with me, and there’s pillows there to keep him from falling off ‘cause he decides to go on a journey every night. He dreams of going to Mordor, throwing in the ring, but it really involves a lot of kicking and crawling around. So, I will kick us off. Oh, for dinner tonight, I mean, we have the nice salami.[01:02:02] Do you want me to do something with that?[01:02:04] Malcolm Collins: Oh, I like the nice salami. Mm-hmm. Okay, so if I was gonna do something with nice salami, I would eat it on toast.[01:02:15] Simone Collins: Would you?[01:02:17] Malcolm Collins: Oh.[01:02:17] Simone Collins: You want nice salami and grilled cheese, just like to cut- I have a[01:02:19] Malcolm Collins: great idea. Garlic bread. Cheesy garlic bread[01:02:24] Speaker 21: A few final side notes for RFAB. , If you downloaded the image viewing app, which auto-sizes images for your screen, we now have that for both Apple and PC, and I have made significant, if you downloaded it anytime before, like yesterday, improvements in stability and features on it. So re-download that.[01:02:42] You can find it on either our image generation page or our not safe for work image search page, which conglomerates the searches of all not safe for work search engines. , The other thing is I have recently added, , or will be added shortly after this video goes live, a model that China put out, which is beating the one that Anthropic had to take down by order of the US government on coding stuff.[01:03:04] So if you’re using our vibe coding system, , we have , a model that is equivalent to Anthropic Fable, , which is exciting[01:03:12] Speaker 18: you guys gonna have a battle? You’re gonna have the ultimate battle?[01:03:15] Speaker 19: Yeah. Yeah. I would take a battle if I had a different gun.[01:03:20] Speaker 18: A different gun. No. What’s wrong with that gun? I can find a new[01:03:22] Speaker 19: one. I need to find a new one.[01:03:24] Speaker 18: You do? Oh, no. All right, should I get the water out? You guys ready? Okay, so he’s gonna go to his gun wardrobe.[01:03:35] Yeah, you want me to open it up for you?[01:03:38] Speaker 19: Yeah.[01:03:38] Speaker 18: Okay. That’s what I want. I’ll get it This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

In this raw and data-packed episode of Based Camp, Simone and Malcolm Collins ask a provocative question: Are Europeans the only people on Earth historically into adult pairings?While most cultures around the world historically married in the early-to-mid teens, Europeans (especially Northern and Western) stood out by commonly delaying marriage until the mid-20s — even in the Middle Ages. The hosts explore whether this European norm, later exported globally through colonialism and cultural influence, may be contributing to today’s fertility crashes in East Asia, Latin America, India, and beyond.They dive into:* Aella’s “Hotness Curve” study and what percentage of men find different ages attractive* The e-girl phenomenon and why so many popular internet aesthetics look phenotypically 15* Genetic and regional differences in fertility windows and menopause age (Europeans go into menopause ~2–3 years later on average)* Historical first-marriage ages across Europe, China, India, Japan, Korea, Africa, and the Americas* Global ages of consent today and when different countries criminalized CSAM* Disney princess ages (Snow White was 14, Jasmine 15, Ariel 16…) and why normalizing teen marriage might be necessary for demographic survivalThis is a no-holds-barred, truth-seeking conversation about culture, biology, attraction, and whether some populations are simply not built for the modern delayed-marriage timeline.If you’re interested in pronatalism, human biodiversity, evolutionary psychology, or why fertility is collapsing everywhere except where European norms never fully took hold — this episode is for you.Show NotesAella’s FindingsAella also just released a substack post titled The Hotness Curve (how age changes a woman’s appeal).Using photos of women of various ages (some real, some AI generated), Aella asked various questions, including: “Casual Sex: A 200 year old vampire shows up in your window at night. She wants a one-night stand. There are no consequences, and nobody will know. Do you say yes?”Here are the answers:Aella found that “Sexual interest climbs very fast, and generally hits a cresendo around women who appeared to be ~24 years old (or 28yo for the older men).”“15% of men said yes they would have casual sex with a vampire in the body of an 11 year old. This rose to a third of men for the body of a 13 year old, and a half of men agreeing to the body of a 15 year old. By 18 we’re at roughly 70%, and by the time a 24 year old is hypothetically entering your window, ~90% of them were down.”Just a small aside: “One interesting thing to note is that the dropoff in fuckability for women - what we might call The Wall - happens for women in their mid 30’s just as predicted, but only in the eyes of men under the age of 25. For older men, we find the ‘wall’ occurs in a woman’s early 40’s. Older men assigned equivalent ‘yes I’d have sex with her’ ratings to an 18 year old as they did to a woman in her early 50’s!”Also: You should play Aella’s ageguesser game.(Simone got better than 67% of players… not very good.)The e-girl phenomenonFrom our friend Bruno: “Why does a certain “e-girl” or “internet girl” face seem to resonate so consistently with online audiences across different eras? Highly recognizable women in online subcultures seem to converge around a similar look; why does that look perform so well with netizens?Early internet figures like Boxxy, later YouTube personalities like Shoe0nHead, cosplay and streamer-adjacent figures, and then more recent cases like Belle Delphine and the current wave of TikTok, cosplay, and Twitter/X e-girl aesthetics. The more interesting question is why a particular facial and stylistic grammar keeps recurring: large expressive eyes, youthful proportions, soft or rounded features, dark hair or bangs, a slightly anime-coded presentation, and a mix of cuteness, irony, awkwardness, and sexual ambiguity.”Malcolm’s first answer: BECAUSE THEY ALL LOOK LIKE LITTLE GIRLS AND PEOPLE ARE PEDOS.The sick sad truth: Most of the world is full of pedosBasically, Europeans are the only non pedos.Maybe the concept of pedos wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for EuropeansMaybe a contributing factor to falling birth rates involves modern norms around late marriage among groups that, for hundreds of years, married much younger.Let’s explore this!Variation in Fertility WindowsA large meta‑analysis across 24 countries estimated the global mean age at menopause at 48.8 years, and by continent:* Europe: about 50.5 years* Asia (overall): about 48.8 years* Africa: about 48.4 years* Latin America: about 47.2 years* Middle East: about 47.4 yearsWHO similarly notes that most women worldwide experience menopause between ages 45 and 55.Variation in Average Ages of MarriageAverage female age at first marriage, approximate, pre‑1800* England (pre‑1800) - ~22–26 - Many parishes ~25–26; Western Europe relatively late.* Western/Northern Europe - ~20–25 - Late marriage pattern; some locales up to 27.* China - ~14–18 - Legal norms ~14–15; practice mid‑teens.* India - ~12–16 - Strong early arranged marriage; big regional variation.* Japan - ~17–19 - Village data show late‑teen marriage.* Korea (Joseon) - ~16–18 - Upper‑status women mid‑teens; similar for many commoners.* Aztec/Nahua - ~14–17 - Girls early‑mid teens; men ~18–22.* Maya - ~16–19 - Most married by ~20; post‑15 coming‑of‑age.* Sub‑Saharan Africa (major) - ~15–18 - Many societies mid‑late teens for women.Sources:* https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/036319907800300103* https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1081602X08000894* https://voxdev.org/topic/institutions-political-economy/economic-shocks-and-age-marriage-sub-saharan-africa-and-india* https://historymyths.wordpress.com/2014/07/06/myth-136-women-married-very-young-in-the-olden-days/* https://keatschinese.com/china-culture-resources/general-standards-of-ancient-chinese-marriage-age/* https://childmarriagedata.org/country-profiles/india/* https://www.aztec-history.com/aztec-society-family.html* https://mayas.mrdonn.org/marriage.htmlAges of ConsentIn the most populous countries:* Pakistan - 18 (requires marriage)* India - 18* Indonesia - 18* Nigeria - 18* Japan - 18* Ethiopia - 18* Egypt - 18* DR Congo - 18* Turkey - 18* United States - 16-18 Varies by state* Philippines - 16 (general), 14 for close‑in‑age minors* Iran - 15–18 with marriage required* Thailand - 15–18* France - 15 (16 in FRA report)* Germany - 14–16 (practical 14–18)* Bangladesh - 14–16* Italy - 14–16* Mexico - 12-18 Varies by state* Russia - 16* Vietnam - 16* United Kingdom - 16* South Africa - 16* South Korea - 16* China - 14* Brazil - 14More detail on Pakistan: Minimum ages for marriage* National framework (historical): The Child Marriage Restraint Act 1929 originally set the minimum age at 18 for males and 16 for females.* Sindh province: Since 2013, Sindh’s own Child Marriage Restraint Act has set the minimum legal marriage age at 18 for both boys and girls.* Islamabad Capital Territory (ICT): The Islamabad Capital Territory Child Marriage Restraint Act 2025 now sets the minimum age at 18 for both sexes, with significant penalties for under‑18 marriages.* Balochistan: In November 2025, Balochistan raised the legal age to 18 for girls (and 18 for boys), banning child marriage in the province.* Punjab and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa (KP): Until very recently, these provinces still had 16 as the legal minimum for girls and 18 for boys, though Punjab has now moved to raise the age to 18; advocacy and legislation are ongoing to harmonize all provinces at 18.Despite recent legal reforms raising the minimum marriage age to 18 in several parts of Pakistan, child marriage remains a significant, ongoing problem, especially for girls from poor, rural, and religious‑minority communities.UNICEF and other analyses report that around 18% of women aged 20–24 in Pakistan were married before 18, which corresponds to roughly 20.5 million girls, and about 4% were married before 15* The Borgen Project reports: Child brides usually come from impoverished families who sell them to older men for a price as high as 2.5 million Pakistani rupees, which is more than $8,000.”Anti-Pedo LawsJapan has had laws against sexual exploitation of minors for decades, but it only criminalized possession of child pornography involving real children in 2014.They really had to ease into it:* 1999 – Japan bans the production and distribution of child pornography involving real minors, aligning partially with other OECD countries but still allowing simple possession.* June 2014 – The Diet passes a revision to the Child Pornography Law that makes possession of child pornography (photos and videos of real children under 18) a criminal offense, punishable by up to one year in prison or a fine.* The 2014 law explicitly excludes manga, anime, and computer‑generated imagery, so fictional depictions remain legal even if they portray minors in sexualized contexts, which is why international observers still criticize Japan as being comparatively permissive about some forms of sexualized images of minors.When various countries instituted CSAM laws* 1973: Germany* 1973–1980s – German Criminal Code provisions against pornography involving minors are introduced and strengthened, banning production and distribution.* 1990s–2000s – EU‑driven harmonization and national reforms explicitly criminalize possession of CSAM (including online images).* 1978: USA* 1978 – Child pornography first becomes illegal at the federal level via the Protection of Children Against Sexual Exploitation Act of 1977 (effective 1978), targeting production, sale, and transport.* 1980s–1990s – Additional federal statutes criminalize possession and receipt of CSAM, with later clarifications (e.g., PROTECT Act 2003) covering digital and some computer‑generated material.* 1978: UK* 1978 – Protection of Children Act 1978 criminalizes taking, making, distributing, showing, and possessing with intent to distribute “indecent photographs” of children, effectively a national child‑pornography ban.* Later acts expand offences and penalties; recent reforms (2020s) start to tackle AI‑optimized CSAM models.* 1980s: Australia* 1980s–1990s – Federal and state laws criminalize child pornography production and distribution.* By the late 1990s/early 2000s, possession of CSAM, including digital content, is clearly illegal nationwide.* 1983: Canada* 1983 – Criminal Code amendments explicitly criminalize child pornography (production and distribution).* Late 1980s/early 1990s – Possession of child pornography is expressly criminalized, including digital material.* 1990: Brazil* 1990 – Statute of the Child and Adolescent (ECA) bans child pornography (production/distribution).* 2008 – Law 11.829 criminalizes possession of child pornography, bringing Brazil into line with international CSAM standards.* 1996: Russia* 1996 – New Criminal Code introduces offences for producing and distributing pornographic materials involving minors.* 2000s – Later reforms explicitly criminalize possession and strengthen provisions for online CSAM.* 1997: China* 1997 – Revised Criminal Law criminalizes organizing, producing, duplicating, publishing, and disseminating pornographic material involving minors.* Subsequent regulations in the 2000s and 2010s reinforce bans on online CSAM and clarify penalties.* 2000: India* 2000 – Information Technology Act criminalizes publishing or transmitting material depicting children in sexually explicit acts online.* 2012–2013 – Amendments (e.g., Criminal Law (Amendment) Act 2013) strengthen bans on using children in pornographic material, expanding offences and penalties.* 2003: Nigeria* 2003 – Child Rights Act, plus later cybercrime legislation, introduce offences related to child sexual exploitation and online child pornography.* 2007: South Africa* 2007 – Criminal Law (Sexual Offences and Related Matters) Amendment Act criminalizes creation, distribution, and possession of child pornography, including electronic images.Episode Transcript[00:00:00] Simone Collins: Okay. Hello, Malcolm.[00:00:00] I’m excited to be with you today because today we’re gonna talk about how maybe Europeans are the only people who aren’t kind of into, if you know what I mean, really young people, and that possibly our colonizing, imposing of older ages of marriage onto all the other peoples of the world could be contributing to demographic collapse.[00:00:22] Because apparently we’re the weirdos in the room. We’re the, the, the outlier.[00:00:26] Malcolm Collins: Okay, I, I need to go over some stats. So this rabbit hole started with me being like, are Japan... ‘Cause if you look at Japanese not-safe-for-work art it is, has an unusually high rate of phenotypically young-looking women.[00:00:40] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:00:40] Malcolm Collins: If, if you catch my drift. And I started to think, I was like, “Could there be a genetic reason for this?” Right? Like, when did Japanese people get married historically? When would have been their first sexual encounter historically? And as I went through that, I was like Oh, wait a second. Everyone but Europeans got married at these super young ages at a historic level.[00:01:04] And now this makes sense why you have these super young age marriages in Africa, in the Middle Easterners, right? Like we, we keep seeing this, oh, Aisha is six, nine, et cetera, right? Like, they, they... This would be weird for European. What’s, what may surprise you is that in Europe, even in the Middle Ages, it was very common for women to not get married until their mid-20s.[00:01:28] Simone Collins: And we’re gonna go into that. We’re gonna go into that ...[00:01:29] Malcolm Collins: which is very rare for any other culture. But hold on, it gets weirder. Before we go, ‘cause I, I wanna get all the, the fun stuff out of the way. It turns out that Europeans... Remember how I’ve always said that Northern Europeans have weirdly high fertility rates compared to every other group on Earth?[00:01:44] Well, Nor- Northern Europeans are also genetically unique among all of the ethnicities on Earth, and that we have significantly, like multiple years longer fertility windows. Euro-[00:01:56] Simone Collins: And we’re gonna go into that too ... pean women go into menopause- Yeah, which people should know about ...[00:01:59] Malcolm Collins: much later. People should know.[00:02:01] So when we started to tell other people around the world, “You can’t start being sexual, you know, with-” Yeah,[00:02:09] Simone Collins: like the appropriate time to start is in your 20s ...[00:02:12] Malcolm Collins: mid-20s. Yeah. We were actually sniping more than half of many of these groups’ reproductive windows. Mm-hmm. And now we’re seeing fertility rates crash around Latin America.[00:02:24] We’re seeing fertility rates crash in East Asia. We’re seeing them crash in India, and it could partially be in results of this. But go, go into the data.[00:02:31] Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, first, some little, here are some of the breadcrumbs that kind of got me to this episode that I think are really fun. Aella just released a Substack post called The Hotness Curve: How Age Changes a Woman’s Appeal, and she used photos of women at various ages.[00:02:46] Some were AI-generated, some were real, including real photos of her throughout her life and her friends. She asked questions like, “Casual sex. A 200-year-old vampire shows up in your window at night. She wants a one-night stand. There are no consequences and nobody will know. Do you say yes?” And then she says this paired with various photos of women, right?[00:03:07] So the resulting graph is a little concerning, I guess. You can see it here On WhatsApp.[00:03:17] What you’ll find and I’ll just read from Aella’s post here. Okay. Aella found that sexual interest climbs very fast and generally hits a crescendo around women who appear to be 24 years old, or 28 years old for older men.[00:03:31] But 15, and I’m quoting from her Substack article, “15% of men said yes, they would have casual sex with a vampire in the body of 11- an 11-year-old.” Sure. “This rose to a third of men for the body of a 13-year-old, and half of men agreeing to the body of a 15-year-old. By 18, we’re at roughly 70%, and at the time a 24-year-old is hypothetically entering your window, 90% of them were down.”[00:03:56] I, I was shocked.[00:03:57] Malcolm Collins: Wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold on. So the midpoint for men is 15? [00:04:00][00:04:00] Simone Collins: Yeah, basically. But I mean, I was just shocked that at the age of 11, 15% of men were like, “Yeah.”[00:04:06] Malcolm Collins: Well, this is actually really fascinating because if this is the actual midpoint of, you know, attractiveness for men-[00:04:14] Simone Collins: Yeah ...[00:04:15] Malcolm Collins: the, the way in society that we treat this, right?[00:04:19] Like, “Oh, you’re aroused by something that looks like that. You must be, like, a wildly deviant individual.”[00:04:27] Simone Collins: Yeah. “You must be a monster. You must need to be arrested,” et cetera. When[00:04:30] Malcolm Collins: literally 50% of men... 15 is astonishingly young. For, yeah, but for 11 is yeah,[00:04:37] Simone Collins: but yeah, 15 as well,[00:04:38] Malcolm Collins: yes. Yeah, but the, the, I’m going, I’m not going with the tw- the 25% of men. I’m going with the average man. The average man-[00:04:44] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah ... is[00:04:45] Malcolm Collins: 15. And that is the reason why it’s important to, like, make this known to people is because if a guy gets into their head that they’re some absolutely monstrous deviant within one category, then they can begin to engage in monster, the, they begin to excuse other types of monstrously deviant behavior because they’re like, “Well, that’s what I am.[00:05:09] That’s how I am- Yeah,[00:05:10] Simone Collins: I’m a monster ... hardwired.” Who cares if I drown a puppy, et cetera? Yeah,[00:05:14] Malcolm Collins: I’m just a bad guy because-[00:05:16] Simone Collins: Yeah ...[00:05:17] Malcolm Collins: yeah. Whereas I think that you can say even if 15 is the average age at which a male may start finding a female form attractive that one, Europeans it’s likely gonna be later, so this is likely held down by, by non-Europeans to some extent.[00:05:33] Mm-hmm. But, but two it, it’s, it’s, it’s normal, but you don’t act on it, right? Like, there’s- Yeah ... a big difference between something being normal and something being a mandate for you to act on. Mm-hmm. If I can give you, it is normal for me to be aroused by a random woman who walks by. It is bad for me to hold her down and have sex with her simply because I was aroused that she walked by, right?[00:06:01] Like- For our[00:06:02] Simone Collins: culture at least, yes.[00:06:03] Malcolm Collins: No, I’m just saying that the, the, the way that we have in our society drawn these very, very thin lines when it comes to this one category of arousal I think is hugely deleterious and leads to a lot more PDA behavior than we would otherwise see if we categorized it more the way that it’s like, yeah, you can find a woman who’s married to another guy arousing.[00:06:34] Don’t sleep with her. That’s morally negative and has morally negative externalities for society, right? But anyway, continue.[00:06:42] Simone Collins: Right. Just a little aside too about the wall, because that’s a fun thing to see what her findings indicated. She wrote, “One interesting thing to note is that the drop-off in affability for women, what we might call the wall, happens for women in their mid-30s, just as predicted, but only in the eyes of men under the age of 25.[00:07:02] For older men, we find the wall occurs in a woman’s early 40s. Older men assign equivalent ‘Yes, I’d have sex with her’ ratings to an 18-year-old as they did to a woman in her early 50s.” Basically the spread of people who would be interested in both dating or having sex with women at older ages was astonishing per this research.[00:07:23] You should go check out the actual post. I’m linking to it in my show notes, as I link to everything else I, I was just shocked by the range of, of, of interest in women. I guess older women are better off now than they have been in the past maybe, or they always have been. But also you should play her Guess Their Age game. She vibe coded it. It’s super fun and you can probably beat me because I could only get better than 67% of players.[00:07:48] I apparently cannot tell people’s age, which is probably good. Also our friend Bruno wrote to us about the e-girl phenomenon. He wrote, “Why does a certain e-girl or internet girl face seem to [00:08:00] resonate so consistently with online audiences across different eras? Highly recognizable women in online subcultures seem to converge around a similar look.[00:08:07] Why does that look perform[00:08:09] so well with netizens? Early internet figures like Boxxy, later YouTube personalities like Shoe0nHead, cosplay, and streamer adjacent figures, and then more recent cases like Belle Delphine and the current wave of TikTok cosplay and Twitter X e-girl aesthetics. The most interesting question is why a particular facial and stylistic grammar keeps recurring.[00:08:28] Large expressive eyes, youthful proportions, softer rounded features, dark hair or bangs, a slightly anime coded presentation, and a mix of cuteness, irony, awkwardness, and sexual ambiguity.” And when I talked about this with Malcolm when we got the email, you’re like[00:08:45] Malcolm Collins: Because they look like children. Yeah.[00:08:48] Like Bella Delphine looks like a 15-year-old.[00:08:50] Simone Collins: Yeah ...[00:08:50] Malcolm Collins: y- she could easily pass as a 15, w- in, in her, the height of her fame. Boxxy I think was literally 15 at the height of her fame. I[00:08:58] Speaker: I realize one of the reasons why other people don’t realize this is because they think 15-year-old girls look like lollies, and they don’t. , People think 15-year-old girls look way younger than they actually do. So here I’m gonna put the pictures of the celebrities we’re talking about next to a bunch of pictures of actual real 15-year-old human girls.[00:09:18] And when you see this, you’ll be like, “Oh, 15-year-old girls look a lot older than I expected.” And it’s like, yeah, they do. And that’s why this is so scary[00:09:26] Speaker 2: And note, this isn’t me being selective. This is me just choosing all the top images when you look up 15-year-old girl. And I’d go so far now that I’m looking at the images side by side to say that these e-celebs that we’re talking about look slightly younger, than your average 15-year-old girl[00:09:41] Octavian Collins: think[00:09:41] Malcolm Collins: so, yeah. Juon Head I don’t think fits into this category. She was never really a thirst trap influencer. But if you look at the various thirst trap influencers CreepyChan fell into this as well.[00:09:52] Mm. ... like they, they all have the, the phenotypical features that make them look different than Simone. And I’ll put images on screen here so you guys can see. I’m not, I’m not joking about this. They just look very young. Yeah. But either because it was considered okay to thirst after them on the internet during that period, or because they technically weren’t actually 15, like Vampire Girls or whatever, everyone was like, “This is fine.”[00:10:16] Now again, I actually think it’s really, really bad to stereotype, Like in, in Australia, I don’t know if you know this, but in Australia you actually can’t have pornography where women have too small of breasts because they say that if the woman’s breasts, even if they’re a totally normal above age woman, it is illegal for them to participate in pornography if their breasts are too small.[00:10:36] So they’ll,[00:10:36] Simone Collins: like, pull up a thing and be like, “Insufficiently busty,” and then it says online- Yeah,[00:10:40] Malcolm Collins: because they say it makes them look too young, right? Like-[00:10:42] Simone Collins: So do erotic actresses have to get boob jobs? Like what happens if you’re interested? By[00:10:46] Malcolm Collins: the way, have you seen that immensely creepy show about the girl who looks like a, like 12-year-old and who’s dating?[00:10:55] Simone Collins: No.[00:10:56] Malcolm Collins: You need to Google this and just watch a clip from this, because I’ll put it here before we go further. I need to call- ‘Cause I need to get your thoughts on the ethics of this. .[00:11:04] Speaker 3: It’s not worth it. I would just completely ignore them. I try to let it just roll off my shoulders. Hearing Thomas’ views shows me a new perspective and allows me to understand a new perspective. He grew up with this mentality, just pick yourself and get up and do it, and I have a lot of social trauma. So I think he’s definitely a more go-getter, less worried about what people think, and I know what people think[00:11:29] Speaker 6: I love how we’re like, “Japan, the Japanese, so gross.” They’re like, “Oh, she the 300-year-old vampire, so it’s okay.” Meanwhile, middle-aged moms watching TLC[00:11:41] Speaker 8: And then fertility and where we go from there, I think the best option for you would be to get you established with an OBGYN- Hmm ... who can kinda dig into safely carrying a child, and would you be able to do it to term, and all of that.[00:11:53] Simone Collins: What?[00:11:54] Malcolm Collins: Look, look up a clip of this[00:11:55] Simone Collins: show. Oh, no. She looks like a child. No. [00:12:00] Oh, TLC, of course. Of, oh, great. Of course. It’s TLC. Oh, no. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Okay. I’ve seen, I’ve seen enough.[00:12:10] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I, th- then so I’m in this range where I’m like, if you look like 15 in the way that like Bella Delphine does or whatever, right, you know-[00:12:19] Simone Collins: Yeah[00:12:19] Malcolm Collins: I’m like, whatever with that. I’m like, I get it, you know, whatever. Right. With this girl and this show, I’m like, even if she’s technically a 300-year-old vampire, like, we need to have a conversation about this because she’s she’s like 27, by the way, Simone.[00:12:37] Simone Collins: Okay.[00:12:38] Malcolm Collins: Sure she is. She has a very rare disorder that caused her to look-[00:12:41] Simone Collins: No, I know.[00:12:42] I know. TLC is, it’s, it’s the dwarves and it’s the, yeah, it’s,[00:12:46] Malcolm Collins: it’s all the, it’s, it’s the freak show people on Earth. But then should she never be able to have a... Hold on. I’m actually thinking through this. Should she never be able to have a sex life because,[00:12:52] Simone Collins: you know- She should. Man, the, the whole point you make in The Pragmatist’s Guide to Sexuality is if you have a thing that some people’s kink or arousal pathway, whatever, like if for example you are obese, you should go after chubby chasers who are way out of your[00:13:06] Malcolm Collins: league.[00:13:06] So you’re basically saying that’s one PDA file off the streets.[00:13:09] Simone Collins: She could get a very high value ‘cause like she’s not a supermodel looks-wise, right? She may not be like the world’s smartest person. She may not be a billionaire. But she could probably find a man who’s way out of her league on one of those measures or multiple because he’s super into...[00:13:23] Yeah,[00:13:27] Malcolm Collins: I mean, like the reason why it’s bad, and we’ve pointed this out before, it’s, is not due to consent. This isn’t why underage stuff is, is bad. It’s because it has negative developmental effects. The reason I point out it’s not due to consent is nobody cares when two, like, mentally disabled people have sex.[00:13:43] Nobody cares when a super elderly person has sex. But like when we’re talking about a 15, 16-year-old who’s almost certainly smarter than most people in their like late 90s or something like that.[00:13:53] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah.[00:13:53] Malcolm Collins: And it’s because of the negative developmental effects. But I think one of the things that I’m realizing is are those negative developmental effects the same for non-Europeans as they are for Europeans?[00:14:04] Simone Collins: That’s a really good question. I did not think to look at birth complications or pregnancy complications for non-European teenagers. And by[00:14:13] Malcolm Collins: the way, the next time I’m talking, make sure you look up the average age for Jews historically, ‘cause I wanna see if they went with the European standard or they went with- Oh[00:14:19] the non-European standard. But like This is one of these interesting fields to talk about, or I find it to be interesting to talk about because there is so much just, like, reflective and reactive signaling around this stuff where individuals attempt to show that they are, Like, just y- y- to, to, to shout at someone, to clown on someone, to yell at someone, to, you know, whatever.[00:14:51] And it’s, it’s super unproductive because a lot of the fight is not where it should be. Like, consider the leftist activists, right, who constantly badger, like, anime companies, but do nothing about the immigrant communities where this is normalized, right? Like we’ve pointed out countless times, the religious court in Pakistan made a hearing, this is the primary religious court of the country that it was Islamophobic to raise the age of marriage from, I think, nine.[00:15:20] Like, how dare you? But this is normal in those countries and, and if you actually cared about this, that’s what you would be targeting and not anime that actually, Now, we can argue whether it leads to radicalizing people in this direction. Mm. Even if it does lead to radicalizing people in this direction, the number of, like, standard Westerners who ever get radicalized in this direction is so dwarfed by where this is happening outside of the West.[00:15:51] But then you have to ask is it even bad where it’s happening outside the West? Because maybe they’re, like, genetically built for... But anyway, what’d you find about the Jews?[00:15:57] Simone Collins: So, for per [00:16:00] European standards of when marriages took place, it looks like pre-1800s, which is what I looked at for the other groups many Jewish communities married what was considered way younger than most of them.[00:16:11] Like, in their teens. So that is interesting. They were, like, the weird outliers in Europe at the time, I guess. Well, now- Probably among other groups ...[00:16:22] Malcolm Collins: now, now hold on. Hold on. Does this explain the Epstein networks?[00:16:28] Simone Collins: Oh, no. Stop. No. Malcolm. Mm, we’re just gonna, we’re gonna skate right over that. No, we’re gonna skate right over this one.[00:16:38] And whatever you wanna say, you can save it for the comments. All right? Uh-uh. You can find whatever code word you wanna use for Epstein this time. Let’s just talk about it there. I’ll start by, this is actually something another friend of ours told me, or, like, mentioned in, in a text conversation, and I just had no idea.[00:16:53] And she’s like, “Well, you understand that non-European women have earlier onset menopause. Like, their fertility window is way shorter, and people should really talk to them about this.” And I had no idea. And then I look it up, and the estimated global mean age at, of menopause is only 48.8. But for Europe, it’s around 50.5 years.[00:17:17] In Asia, it’s 48.8.. In Africa it’s 48.4 years. In Latin America it’s 47.2 years, and in the Middle East it’s 47.4 years. 47, like that, 47 versus 50 is, is very significant. I- I had no idea, and also it’s, it’s crazy that we’re not telling people this, but the f- when you look at this in comparison to the average ages of marriage pre-1800 across different parts of the world, it kind of makes sense that fertility windows[00:17:49] Malcolm Collins: got pushed back for Europeans.[00:17:49] Well, and mostly Europeans have had a strong genetic pressure for a- Yeah ... very long time-[00:17:54] Simone Collins: Yeah ...[00:17:55] Malcolm Collins: for higher fertility windows.[00:17:56] Simone Collins: Because of norms around marriage. In England pre-1800, the typical arage, marriage ar- we’ll say average female age at first marriage. Keep in mind, this is average, right? This is not, you know, there are lots of younger than this.[00:18:10] But average was 22 to 26, which is kind of what modern society has rested at now, right? And maybe that’s because- Mm ... of colonialism and, and the influence of European and especially English culture, but it’s 22 to 26 pre-1800s. In Western and Northern Europe it was a little bit lower. It was 20 to 25.[00:18:29] And in China, by comparison, it’s 14 to 18 average. India, 12 to 16. Japan, 17 to 19. Korea, 16 to 18. I, I checked about, like Aztec, 14 to 17. Maya, 16 to 19. And then in Sub-Saharan Africa, 15 to 18. So when you look at these earlier onsets of menopause, they kind of track pretty well to historical marriage patterns, and I think that kind of helps to make sense.[00:19:02] Now y- when you look also at, I, one thing I decided to look at, and I’m sending you a graph of this so that you can look at it more visually. But I looked at the ages of consent today in the highest population countries, though this, the global map that I sent to you from d- Our Data Is Beautiful is also just everything.[00:19:20] But the age of consent in Pakistan, do you know what it is?[00:19:25] Malcolm Collins: What, what’s the age of consent in Pakistan?[00:19:27] Simone Collins: It’s 18.[00:19:30] Malcolm Collins: Oof.[00:19:31] Simone Collins: I know. I was like, “Wait a second. How? Why?” And no, like actually, so there’s this Child Marriage Act of 1929- Oh ... that originally set the minimum age at, at 18 for males and 16 for females Okay, I,[00:19:42] Malcolm Collins: I, I, by the way, take it back.[00:19:44] Younger Siwan head definitely looks 15.[00:19:46] Simone Collins: Okay. I’ll let it go. All of[00:19:47] Malcolm Collins: these girls look[00:19:48] Simone Collins: 15. I, I think she still looks super young. And I think she said she was in her mid-30s. Oops. I think she also just has, like, a phenotypically young-looking face.[00:19:56] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, she has a phenotypically- But yeah ... that’s what it is.[00:19:58] That’s, that’s... Guys are like, [00:20:00] “There’s this certain type of girl that I’m really into.” And it’s like, I hate to tell you this, brother, but that, that look is the look of a teenager[00:20:10] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah. Long story short with Pakistan, basically, they have a lot of different laws and efforts. There’s the 1929 Child Marriage Restraint Act.[00:20:21] There’s the Child Marriage Restraint Act in a different province. They’re like in, in Sindh province, in Islamabad Capital Territory, in Balochistan, in Punjab, in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa. India has a[00:20:35] Malcolm Collins: super old first age of marriage.[00:20:37] Simone Collins: Yeah, no, they, yeah, they, they’re very, like they have... what’s weird is when I was like, wait, but h- how long has it been 18?[00:20:44] ‘Cause we keep hearing about these really young marriages in Pakistan. Like, all these laws show up. And then I, I, I dug a little deeper and it’s kind of like, well, they have all these laws because people keep marrying kids super young. Like, the laws are there ‘cause they’re like, “No, no, no stop. But like, actually stop.[00:20:59] Can we...” They’re like, “For, super for real this time, guys. Like, let’s do[00:21:03] Malcolm Collins: this.” But I mean, throughout Africa, Africa’s the place where it’s Africa and Indonesia where you see the 11 average age.[00:21:10] Simone Collins: Yeah. But I mean, still UNICEF, for example, reports that around 18% of women age 20 to 24 in Pakistan were married before 18.[00:21:19] So it’s, it’s, yeah, but you’re right. Pakistan’s not the worst. Anyway, that surprised me. Other, other ages of consent. So India’s also high at 18, Indonesia 18, Nigeria 18, Japan 18, Ethiopia, Egypt, Democratic Republic of Congo, Türkiye. United States is actually a little different. Some of our states go as low as 16, I think.[00:21:41] In the Philippines it’s 16 in general. Iran 15 to 18, Thailand 15 to 18, France 15 Germany 14 to 16. So go Germans. But I kinda think, like, it’s so normatively weird for Germans. They’d be like, “Well, but of course we don’t need the rule because we would never. We’re German.” In Bangladesh 14 to 16, Italy 14 to 16, in Mexico it’s 12 to 18, it varies by the state.[00:22:07] Russia is 16, Vietnam is 16, United Kingdom 16, South Africa 16, South Korea 16, China and Brazil are both 14. So China’s still super low, which is wild. But you had mentioned this to me and I thought it was insane that Japan only criminalized possession of, we’ll call it CSAM involving real children in 2014.[00:22:32] Though it should be noted that the law explicitly excludes manga, anime, and computer-generated imagery, and I just love Japan for being so Japan on that front.[00:22:43] Malcolm Collins: So Japan.[00:22:44] Simone Collins: Yeah, they’re like- I- But not the mang- I mean, not the manga.[00:22:47] Malcolm Collins: That would outlaw- A little bit ... like, more than half of anime, right?[00:22:50] Simone Collins: I know, they would, yeah, they would, like, destroy the entire anime industry if they were to, like, actually follow through with that.[00:22:57] Yeah. So I totally understand, But[00:23:00] Malcolm Collins: again, we need to, in America, understand that Japanese males and females are genetically and sociologically different from us.[00:23:09] Simone Collins: Yeah, historically- Like, it- ... they married a lot younger. Their fertility window ends sooner. They, they need to marry younger, and now that they live in a culture where marriage is severely delayed, they’re gonna see a bigger hit from that.[00:23:21] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I mean, I personally will be encouraging my kids to date from, to marry starting probably around 16 to 17. I think that’s when you start dating and learning to date with the intention of eventually marrying.[00:23:35] Simone Collins: Yeah, we’re gonna have to work on them with this because Octavian just picked up At More Birth’s report that’s been sitting around our house.[00:23:42] Yeah. And started leafing through it, and he was looking at this graph of average age of first marriage- ... over time.[00:23:49] Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm.[00:23:50] Simone Collins: And I asked him how old he wanted to be when he got married, and at first he’s like, “Mm, 40?” And I’m like, “Really?” And he’s like, “Okay, maybe when I’m, like, a teenager.” And I’m like, “Oh, [00:24:00] okay, so like 18?”[00:24:00] He’s like, “No, like a hun- 100.” So I don’t know where he’s at. We need to be like, “This is the right age. After this, you gotta worry.”[00:24:09] Malcolm Collins: Well, we used to get this. Princesses, like Disney princesses, actually look this up, look up the ages of various famous Disney princesses. Wait, hold on. Let[00:24:16] Simone Collins: me get my phone.[00:24:16] Malcolm Collins: But they’re often quite young for when they, they, they got married.[00:24:20] And I think that normalizing that, normalizing not the Hallmark wedding of the divorce or whatever, but the I’m gonna get married when I’m... What, what are the ages- ... of the Disney princesses?[00:24:33] Simone Collins: Snow White is 14.[00:24:35] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. That’s[00:24:36] Simone Collins: what we need- Jasmine is 15. Aurora is 16. Ariel is 16. Mulan is 16. Hey, legal in the UK.[00:24:43] Merida from Brave, 16. Moana, 16. Belle, usually treated as 17 years old, though sources vary between 17 and 18. Now, hold on. Pocahontas is 18. Do you want me to play a little[00:24:55] Malcolm Collins: fun game? Rapunzel, 18. Now look up the ages of their partners in each of those movies.[00:25:03] Simone Collins: Okay. I mean, obviously because the men are just so unimportant in most of these, especially early movies, it’s hard to tell. But so Snow White, 14. Prince Florian, 18 to 31. So either-[00:25:19] Malcolm Collins: 18 to 31 with a 14-year-old ...[00:25:21] Simone Collins: is that, let’s see. So the half plus seven rule, that’s seven pl- s- the half, yeah, seven- No,[00:25:26] Malcolm Collins: no, keep going.[00:25:27] Just go. Just[00:25:28] Simone Collins: go ... okay. Yeah, anyway ... keep going ... the, the half plus seven rule is my, my... Okay. Cinderella’s 19. Prince Charming, 21. Appropriate. That’s a two-year age gap. Aurora and Prince Phillip in Sleeping Beauty 16 versus 20, four-year age gap. Ariel- ... and Prince Eric, she’s 16, he’s 18 to 19. Where is the biggest gap here?[00:25:47] The biggest ga- oh, it’s Rapunzel and Flynn. Because she’s 18 and he’s 26. That’s eight years.[00:25:55] Malcolm Collins: But she’s older- That’s, that’s not too bad ... so it’s okay. What about the, the Muslim one? Wh- what about the, the-[00:26:00] Simone Collins: Oh well, come on. The, the street urchin? J- that’s plus three years. She’s 15 and he’s 18.[00:26:06] Malcolm Collins: That’s, that’s[00:26:08] Simone Collins: a very normal marriage for that region ... but Pocahontas and John Smith is, is less clear. It is, it is e- it is between two or nine years. But- So that is unclear ...[00:26:17] Malcolm Collins: getting women excited about marrying in their teens, I think is where we need to be as a culture again.[00:26:22] Simone Collins: Oh, boy. Yeah. Yeah. I, yeah. W- but when, and we, I guess we have to get over this European Puritanical view shaming teen marriage.[00:26:33] And you can actually really see it in, in where various countries instituted CSAM laws basically being like, “Young looking people, no good in images. Stop.” You c- the first, all the first countries to start this are Western. All the last countries to institute these laws, not Western. So we start with 1973 in Germany, 1978 in the USA and UK, 1980s in Australia ‘83 for Canada, 1990 for Brazil.[00:27:03] That’s our first non-super Western country, even though Brazil’s pretty Western. 1996 Russia, 1997 China, 2000 India, 2003 Nigeria,[00:27:14] 2007 South Africa. Like the re- Wait. Wait,[00:27:17] Malcolm Collins: what, what is this, what is this when?[00:27:18] Simone Collins: This is when CSAM laws were instituted, when, when, when it wasn’t okay to create or possess the, the stuff that you’re not allowed to create or possess the, the bad, the images Very[00:27:32] Malcolm Collins: recently in most of these non-Western countries.[00:27:34] Simone Collins: Right? Yeah. And, and Japan’s the worst, of course with the- unique[00:27:38] Malcolm Collins: case there ...[00:27:39] Simone Collins: really dragging their feet. But n- but not for, not for anime and manga. It’s okay. Don’t worry about it. It’s gonna be okay. Your manga... God, what was that anime where, like, the- The succubus looks like she’s a child[00:27:55] Malcolm Collins: No- Naomi or whatever I told you about.[00:27:58] The w- yeah, where she, like, actually looks like a [00:28:00] child a child, and she can only survive by drinking-[00:28:04] Simone Collins: Things ...[00:28:04] Malcolm Collins: ex- things. And- Oh my God ... the whole thing’s supposed to be... Oh, hold on. R- remember I said it’s a show about being a father, right? Like, that’s, that’s the, the- Oh, yeah. Yes I had forgotten that the main character is actually literally her father, but he’s 14.[00:28:23] Simone Collins: This is worse than that anime who, like, the guy’s hand was just a girl one morning. Remember that? Just like- I did look that up. A girl[00:28:32] Octavian Collins: That’s ridiculous. That’s a girl.[00:28:34] Simone Collins: Japan’s the best. Who thinks of these things? There’s like-[00:28:38] Malcolm Collins: When I was on Linkfest streams, the, the, the manga where a guy’s willy became a girl, right?[00:28:43] Like, th- that’s, like, the whole manga People said it was funny. I don’t know. I, I, I don’t know why- I[00:28:50] Simone Collins: mean, it would be, I think. Yeah, I don’t Yeah, they just have to, like, find the weirdest people in the country, and they’re like, “You, you’re hired. Write a manga.” I like it. Anyway, this- The[00:29:03] Malcolm Collins: weirdest people ...[00:29:04] Simone Collins: this has changed.[00:29:05] I mean, I, I, I, I’ve been having a conversation with, with someone, and w- we’ve talked about things like teen marriage, and just the, the stigma that we have around, for example, even getting married in college. You know, people see it as really weird, and I think a lot of people even who are very pronatalist who understand that it’s an issue that people are putting off marriage would be kind of weirded out by the idea of their son or daughter getting married right out of high school or in college.[00:29:30] I,[00:29:30] Malcolm Collins: by the way, would not, and when our kids start dating and when I start trying to do arranged marriage for them, I think the appropriate age for a kid to get married is, perfect age is probably 19 or 20.[00:29:42] Simone Collins: Yeah, and at that age, too, the young couple can, if they need to, like while they’re still getting their footing, live at our house.[00:29:49] You know, like, live with the parents if, if they help out and everything. Like, it, it’s such an easier way to start your life. Build savings, you know, while you’re young enough to- And if[00:29:57] Malcolm Collins: we start having kids at that age, we just take care of the kids.[00:30:00] Simone Collins: Exactly. It’s, it’s the smartest thing. And guess what?[00:30:03] That, that is actually what my parents did. When my parents came back from Japan with me, for a while they lived at my dad’s parents’ house. And th- this is, this is a very normative thing. Like, the reason we had baby showers wasn’t because people wanted some bougie party that cost $10,000. It was because this was a young 20-year-old couple right out of high school, and they didn’t have money to buy diapers, and so people chipped in and bought them diapers and, like, t- taught them baby things and whatnot.[00:30:32] Like, there’s a reason for these traditions. The same for bridal showers. It was that, oh, this is a new couple. And wedding gifts. You bought them silverware because they hoped to buy a house together and get silverware, not like they were already 30 and living in an apartment and they owned everything they’d ever need in their life.[00:30:48] Anyway, apparently we just need to get over the fact that, Everyone else likes young girls especially. This is... We’re the weird ones.[00:30:58] Malcolm Collins: We’re the weird ones- That’s all. Yeah ... for thinking that this is not cool?[00:31:02] Simone Collins: Yeah. This, well, this has significantly changed my views. Like, the, in, in, in, in, in a am I the a*****e situation, we Europeans are the a*****e.[00:31:11] We’re sorry. This was our mistake. Bring back teen marriage, bring back my Big Fat Gypsy Wedding, bring back teen pregnancy. We were wrong. We are prudish m- procrastinating Europeans. And also, if you are not of European ancestry, please adjust your childbearing years accordingly because who knew?[00:31:39] I didn’t know. I hope everyone else[00:33:56] knows this, but I don’t think they do. Anyway, I love you, Malcolm.[00:33:59] Malcolm Collins: I love you too. Have a good time. This was a, a really interesting what, there was something I was gonna- About Japan or something. Now we’re just all of these other groups. I mean, what’s, what’s your takeaway on all of this in regards to the way we as a society...[00:34:16] I mean, I just think that some groups were never really designed, or not designed, but, like, cultures are different in a way where some may genuinely not be, be compatible. And this is one of those areas wh- fascinatingly that, that Europeans may have psy-oped the rest of the world into eradicating themselves.[00:34:38] Simone Collins: Hmm. Oh, yeah, I mean, you did an, an episode once on are some countries just not compatible with democracy. Apparently some countries are just not compatible with later onset marriage for example.[00:34:48] Malcolm Collins: Yeah.[00:34:49] Simone Collins: So yeah, I, I, I think you’re onto something there. Are we becoming skeptical of the benefits of colonialism?[00:34:55] I don’t know.[00:34:56] Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, we, we just need to colonize them harder until, you know-[00:35:01] Simone Collins: Until their fertility windows are moved, but we will force them back. It’s fine.[00:35:05] Malcolm Collins: Colonize me harder, Daddy.[00:35:07] Simone Collins: Yeah. It’s, it... You’ll like it. Don’t worry.[00:35:10] Malcolm Collins: You’ll like it. You’ll like it at the end of the day. Come on.[00:35:14] Simone Collins: Okay.[00:35:14] Malcolm Collins: They, they, r- I mean, there’s been countries that have asked to be colonized in the past.[00:35:19] Simone Collins: Yeah. And were there some countries that asked for their colonizing forces to not go?[00:35:24] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yeah. Like, the, the idea that, like, colonization was this like a universal negative is as, you know, i- it’s, it’s like, do some people in America not like the US government?[00:35:36] Yes, a big chunk. You can get people to protest, but a lot of them like it as well.[00:35:40] Speaker 5: There’s a great quote from an Indian under the early stages of occupation, , and they asked him like, “What, what do you think of occupation? What do you think of having to pay taxes to the British government?” And he was like ecstatic about it. He’s like, “, now with the British government, every year a taxpayer comes around once.[00:35:56] It used to be every year all of the local [00:36:00] warlords sent taxpayers to my house.” , So basically the idea is that before the British came in, there was a bunch of overlapping regions that might have power, or at least the power to force you to give them money, and they’d all send , , tax collectors to you, , at least within this region of India.[00:36:14] And he was, , he felt so out from under , , the burden of that under the British system. We act like everyone was saints before the colonial system came in, but in a lot of these regions, the people were, , comically cruel compared to what the West did[00:36:29] Speaker 9: Again, if we’re talking about India here, you can look at the practice of sati, where they would burn a wife alive when her husband died. , And there’s the famous case of the English general who’s, , working with Indian troops, and they start to build a pyre to burn a woman alive because her husband had died.[00:36:47] And he looks at them and he goes, “, don’t do that.” And they’re like, “What? We’re your allies. This is our practice.” And he goes, “Well, okay then, , we have a practice in Britain, and when men burn a woman alive, we hang them. So I’ll just set up the gallows right here, and as soon as you’re done with this fire, we can hang all of you.”[00:37:05] , And they’re like, “Oh, okay, okay. I guess we won’t do this.” But, , , the reality , is that a lot of these places were far more cruel and brutal than is portrayed in, in the common narrative today[00:37:15][00:37:15] Speaker 10: And note here, this isn’t just in the words of the quote-unquote colonizers who were recording this. One of, like, the big moments I remember from childhood is we were reading this book called Things Fall Apart, which was supposed to be about how bad the colonization of Nigeria was, and there’s this scene where they take a baby and they leave it to slowly die alone in the woods simply because it was a twin, and they believed twins were evil.[00:37:42] And the complaint was that the Europeans wanted to stop this practice. And I remember, like, looking around in the woods, , the room and being like, “Wait, so, like, w- like, th- uh, like, everyone else here thinks this was a bad thing that we stopped this?” , The level of horrors of things that we stopped through colonization are almost unspeakable in many of these regions[00:38:07] Speaker 11: And I say this as someone who has a British background because my own ancestors before they were colonized from Rome practiced human sacrifice regularly, practiced the sacrifice of children regularly. They would bury them under bridges to like keep them from collapsing or something. , They f- monstrous, monstrous stuff.[00:38:26] , Before colonization we were all animals[00:38:28] Simone Collins: Well, and I think that’s kind of what China was trying to sell with the Belt and Road Initiative. They’re like, “Don’t you wanna be colonized? Wouldn’t you like me to build some infrastructure for you? Let’s do this.” I- it’s, it’s colonizing 2.0 with different branding.[00:38:41] So I agree with you. Yeah, I see it. Okay, bye.[00:38:45] Malcolm Collins: Bye.[00:38:48] Whoa, I didn’t ask you to bring it and fill it, but thank you. Octavian, come here. Come here. We’re gonna say happy birthday.[00:38:54] Simone Collins: I gave you 2% milk. That’s really nice of you. Oh, Octavian, that’s[00:38:55] Malcolm Collins: so nice. Did you spill any? Did you make a mess?[00:38:58] Simone Collins: No.[00:38:59] Malcolm Collins: Okay,[00:38:59] Simone Collins: by the way, I don’t know if you saw. Did you see the basically, like, lore encyclopedia that’s super interactive and full of fun, like, games and cool elements that Leaflet built?[00:39:10] Malcolm Collins: No.[00:39:12] Simone Collins: Oh my gosh, it’s amazing. I have to send you a link. Did you[00:39:14] Malcolm Collins: share it with me?[00:39:16] Simone Collins: Yeah no. I, I didn’t share it with you. I just learned about it. It’s at clyo.angelsword.com. I’m sending it to you.[00:39:23] Malcolm Collins: It’s- Is this the one where she has, like, the cartridges that you can put in, or are you talking about something else?[00:39:27] Simone Collins: There is a, there’s a combat training game. There’s a library with books to go through. There... Y- you basically get to explore the lore and learn about the RPG, but in a very immersive, interactive, game-like way. Not even game-like. It, as a game. Like, it’s- So[00:39:43] Malcolm Collins: do you wanna hear the crazy thing-[00:39:44] I think it should be ready to go live tomorrow, which I’m absolutely shocked about. But it is a new standalone app that you can download for free on RFAB. And what it does is it, for reasons, like if you [00:40:00] ever had a reason to do this, but in terms of the type of- Who[00:40:02] Simone Collins: knows why?[00:40:03] Malcolm Collins: Image generation- I don’t know why ... and video generation on RFAB you can open, like, a collection of images or videos, and then it auto-sizes them to the size of the app’s screen and puts them in order. So, you don’t, like... You can say, like, “Oh, I want five images open on my screen,” and it will automatically size them to use maximum screen real estate.[00:40:25] Oh ... and the thing that I’m still working on is dragging and dropping one folder of this into another folder of this so it’s even, the UI is even easier. Okay. But it also works with clicking on opening images or videos, and that it will auto open them in a very lightweight screen that’s very easy to both resize, but also that, like, doesn’t, like, it- If you’re using, like, VLC, it, like, puts the title in front of it and stuff like that.[00:40:49] Yeah. And it doesn’t auto loop, and it’s very annoying if you’re creating AI videos. But no, this is all handled automatically by this system.[00:40:56] Speaker 12: Basically, this is a totally free app that you can download from the, , image generation page or the page that allows you to search every not safe for work database at the same time, , from that link up there. And, , if you set it to your default viewer, uh, you can just drop any additional image into the, , another image, and it will equally space them in relation to each other, as well as some other quality of life features[00:41:21] Malcolm Collins: And then it does other useful things that you might run into with RFAB, like, if you’re using the not safe for work image search feature, because it allows you to download zips from various websites- Okay[00:41:30] You can get, like, an entire folder full of zips, and now this has a feature that automatically unzips them all and can automatically take them all out of their subfolders if you want them all in the, the parent folder. Now it’s being-[00:41:40] Simone Collins: This just sounds like it’s for a very specific type of person.[00:41:42] Malcolm Collins: It’s being... Chud, Chud backs it. Yeah, it’s, it’s being built right now. But it’s getting close. Like, like, like, it’ll be improved because I just started working on it today, but at a base level it works right now.[00:41:54] Simone Collins: Okay. Wow.[00:41:56] Malcolm Collins: But, Wow ... yeah. Well, I’d say if, if you... I mean, even, it even has, like, normal safe for work uses.[00:42:03] Like, if you’re just doing a lot of like image creation and you want to go through tons of images at once it’s a really intuitive way to do that that’s incredibly lightweight. Okay. Now, right now it’s only for Windows because I have to send it to Simone if we wanna make a Mac version. So if people want a Mac version you can let me know[00:42:22] Simone Collins: Thanks.[00:42:22] I don’t know, Macs are more used by women. Women are less likely to want this use.[00:42:27] Malcolm Collins: Well, yeah. I know it’s only th- th- those are women things.[00:42:31] Simone Collins: Yeah, I feel like the, the overlap between the type of, let’s just say it, guy who wants to use this and their, like, computer use, like, they’re gonna use gaming PCs.[00:42:41] They’re, they’re not gonna be idiots who use Macs like me. Sorry. But yes. No, I mean, anyway, it sounds really cool. I will-[00:42:49] Malcolm Collins: Oh, and I, I hugely improved the not safe for work video generation feature to the point where it’s basically unrec- Well, because the problem that I realized I had is the text to video was not using not safe for work CDance, which is the best if you want to describe a scene.[00:43:05] And now it works really well for scene descriptions.[00:43:09] Simone Collins: Huh. Interesting[00:43:14] I’m gonna have to- And,[00:43:14] Malcolm Collins: and you can generate quite long videos, like 15 seconds[00:43:17] Simone Collins: I need to do video generation on this. Okay. Well, I’m excited to do that then. But for now I will, I will kick us off. Okay. Ready? Yeah?[00:43:29] Speaker 13: I know which one it is. It feels so much better than having one. I’ll tell you, just like this little herd. You’re gonna be with me, Toasty? Aw, thanks. It’s texting me Do I like frogs? Yeah, frogs are super cool.[00:43:57] Speaker 14: Yeah, see that’s why you were gonna give me a frog question. Oh, yeah. [00:44:00] ‘Cause I like frogs. Yeah. We’ll give it to you if you eat your food, Toasty. Yeah, Toasty. Okay. ‘Cause we want you to grow big and strong, right, buddy? Look at that This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of Based Camp, Simone and Malcolm Collins break down The New York Times’ recent coordinated coverage of masculinity and fatherhood. They analyze four pieces that attempt to redefine what it means to be a dad — including a cartoon about a trans father on Father’s Day, a childless writer’s take on “modern” fatherhood, an attack on Scott Galloway’s views on paternity leave, and Ezra Klein’s conversation with Helen Lewis framing the “New Right’s very old vision of men.”The Collinses argue these articles reveal deep cultural elite contempt for actual fathers and promote unsustainable, self-indulgent views of parenting that prioritize personal identity and emotional affirmation over duty, sacrifice, and long-term human thriving. They explain why pronatalist, traditional approaches to masculinity and fatherhood will inherit the future while progressive narratives collapse under their own contradictions.Expect sharp cultural analysis, personal parenting stories, and a direct challenge to the mainstream media’s attempt to gaslight men about what fatherhood really is.Show Notes@AlexBerenson wrote: Cannot make this up, either.@nytimes opinion has had four recent pieces about fatherhood and masculinity, with six authors:Three womenA trans “man”Two childless menNot one father. The cultural elite contempt for dads runs so deep we don’t even get to speak for ourselves.The four pieces appear to be these recent New York Times Opinion items on fatherhood/masculinity:* “To My Daughter, My Gender Was Never Complicated” (guest essay in comic-strip form, by Zach Ellams, a trans-identifying parent writing about being a “trans dad” and fatherhood).* “The Most Important Way That Fatherhood Has Changed” (Father’s Day–timed essay on changing perspectives on fatherhood).* “This Masculinity Influencer Is Loud and Wrong About Paternity Leave” (criticizing a male influencer’s stance on paternity leave and broader masculinity issues).* “The New Right’s Very Old Vision of Men” (Opinion video/transcript focusing on men, masculinity and the New Right, featuring journalist Helen Lewis).“To My Daughter, My Gender Was Never Complicated”https://www.nytimes.com/2026/06/21/opinion/trans-dad-parenting-fathers-day.htmlhttps://www.nytimes.com/2026/06/21/opinion/trans-dad-parenting-fathers-day.html?unlocked_article_code=1.r1A.oWDB.tcG4utZreGgZ&smid=url-shareThis shows a series of cartoon panels about a trans father who underwent surgery at 18 and has lived as a father of a daughter, mostly quite out, for some time.It’s about how he found self acceptance through parenting (and I love that, because I—Simone—have also experienced that and can totally relate)The panels include things like:* His daughter yelling: “HOW DID YOU GROW A MUSTACHE IF YOU WERE A LADY?” at a public school* His daughter asking about a pre-transition picture of him in an album and asking:* “Who’s that?”* “It’s me”* “Oh. You look cool.”* “Then or now?”* “Then.”* Him worrying about his daughter outing him at school* “I don’t actually tell everyone I’m trans. I save that for special people”* Eventually she outs him, saying she wants to grow a beard when she grows up, and when told she can’t, insisting she can because her dad did and he was a girl.* Her various sick burns* “You’re slow because you’re old!”* “Maybe I’ll be like you when I grow up” // “Yeah?” // “Yeah. Really short.”The Backlash:* @realBrandonGill: “On Father’s Day, the New York Times decided to promote a cartoon of a woman cosplaying as a father. And they did it for a reason. Because the cultural left knows that the first step to conquering the future is brainwashing the minds of our children— and they’ve realized that strong fathers are the biggest obstacle to that goal. They want to tear the institution of fatherhood down to nothing because, to the left, things that are normal, good, and holy are a threat to their marxist revolution.”* Matt Taibbi: “Today’s NYT editorial on Father’s Day is an all-timer. Again, don’t know where to put it on the funny-vs-horrifying axis:”* @EndWokeness: “The New York Times on Father’s Day. We do not hate the media enough.”* Caitlin Flanagan: “The child’s job was to help the parent feel comfortable with his gender.”* @AfterTheReset: “Message aside, is it necessary for the cartoons to be ugly, poorly drawn, and unappealing?”Is this an affront to father’s day?* Sort of* Mother’s Day in the modern U.S. sense was founded by Anna Maria Jarvis in the early 1900s to create a solemn “memorial mothers day” honoring the sacrifices and care of individual mothers, inspired directly by her own mother Ann Reeves Jarvis’s wish for such a day and by Ann’s community health and reconciliation work.* Anna’s drive was rooted in her mother Ann Reeves Jarvis’s work: Ann had organized “Mothers’ Day Work Clubs” in the 1850s to improve sanitation and reduce infant mortality, and later “Mother’s Friendship Day” events to heal divisions between Union and Confederate families after the Civil War. Ann also expressed in a Sunday school prayer that she hoped someone would someday establish a “memorial mothers day” for the “matchless service” mothers render to humanity, a line Anna took as her guiding mission* In the U.S., Father’s Day is generally credited to Sonora Smart Dodd of Spokane, Washington, who proposed the holiday in 1909 after hearing a church sermon about Anna Jarvis’s newly established Mother’s Day. (her civil war veteran dad raised her and her siblings alone after her mother died).* I find this really relatable as a parent* Many of us have peculiarities and a story about how parenting helps with acceptance and getting someone out of their heads is actually really good* In fact, these panels even demonstrate how the author’s daughter gets him to stop overthinking things* There’s a panel where she’s like: “I spot something that starts with T!”* And all he can think of is “trans”* And he’s like: Termite? Turtleneck? Tiny morsel of wood?”* And his daughter is like: “TREES.”“The Most Important Way That Fatherhood Has Changed”https://www.nytimes.com/2026/06/15/opinion/fathers-day-fatherhood.htmlhttps://archive.is/Gn93jIn this, Frank Bruni, a (childless) contributing opinion writer who has been on staff at the time for over 25 years, talks about how fatherhood has changed between his dad and his brother’s generations (his brother has three kids in their 20s)He talks about fathers spending more time with their kids now an cites an article suggesting one reason fertility is lower is that men want to give the kids they do have more attention.In short, he says modern fatherhood is high effort, high investment, and he says that’s good.He sort of misses that the investment now isn’t in empowering kids but rather indulging them, and he provides a good example: “Mark encouraged his children to let him in by inviting them to understand him. He made sure that they met and mingled with his adult friends and thus observed how he tended relationships and what they meant to him. He also showed his children his passions.“I took Frank to a Grateful Dead concert when he was 12,” Mark told me, referring to his oldest son, who, like me, is named after my father. But that outing wasn’t just characteristically ardent Deadhead evangelism (and, well, unorthodox parenting). It reflected Mark’s sustained effort to expand the time that he and Frank spent together. The more hours, the more conversation. The more conversation, the greater the likelihood of serendipitous revelations, real familiarity, deeper connection.”“This Masculinity Influencer Is Loud and Wrong About Paternity Leave”https://www.nytimes.com/2026/02/21/opinion/paternity-leave-debate.htmlhttps://archive.is/Zm4OyIn this opinion piece, Jessica Grose denounces Scott Galloway’s stance on paternity leave.It should be noted that Scott Galloway is one of the few progressive-leaning pronatalists out there (center-left liberal or social capitalist rather).In an interview with Derek Thompson, Galloway said: “I think there should be mandatory maternity leave, because I think the species needs to propagate. I’m not sure there should be mandatory paternity leave. I think it sometimes creates resentment. I think sometimes it’s abused. And so I’m a bit of a capitalist here. I think it’s between the company, but I don’t know if I immediately default to oh, the father needs to be there.”Grose added: “Galloway also commented that he doesn’t think men should be in the delivery room. “I thought that was so disgusting and unnatural,” he says. When I asked Galloway if he had a response to the backlash he has been getting over these comments, he said over email, “My comments were intentionally provocative in the context of a friendly/snarky conversation with Derek.””She also noted: “Poor Derek Thompson tried to push back, and launch a defense of parental leave. “Most of the gap between prime age adult male and female earnings is a motherhood penalty. And so one benefit of paternity leave is that it puts men and women on relatively more equal standing,” to which Galloway replies, “By lowering the economic standards of the man?””She proceeded to cite research finding that “Paid paternity leave in Quebec did not fix the motherhood penalty for women, nor did it substantially hurt men’s economic standards.”She also attempts to exploit that “not a baby man” aspect of Galloway’s personality:* “It gets worse. Thompson, who is still glowing from the birth of his second child, shares a very sweet story with Galloway about playing “monster” with his eldest child, a 2-year-old, and how he feels “an enormous upsurge of instinct for how to parent my child.” Thompson adds, “I love discovering a new piece of myself in parenting.”Galloway doesn’t even seem to be listening to Thompson, because his response is, “The bad news is it just sucks for the dad. We pretend to like it.” Galloway thinks dads are full of it “when they say they like babies. They’re awful. As a new dad your job is to make sure moms don’t lose it, “and get some sleep and keep the baby away from bodies of water. That is literally your only two jobs right now, or the only two things that you’re any good at. At about 2 or 3 it starts to get less awful and then by 4 or 5 it almost becomes fun.””She imposes an implication on Galloway that is unfair: “Scott Galloway is entitled to his feelings about parenting babies, and I’m sure he’s not alone. What I am objecting to is the unsaid implication that it’s super fun for moms all the time, while also talking to a man who seems to be wholeheartedly enjoying his small children.”She tries to argue that many men like being fathers (implying Galloway is heartless) and that studies show people want supportive partners and that partners who take paternity leave “have higher levels of life satisfaction, better health, better marriages and better relationships to their children”She writes: “When I asked Galloway if he was familiar with any of this research, he said, “My point wasn’t that paternity leave is bad — it’s that we should be honest about trade-offs and let families make decisions based on their circumstances rather than treating one model as morally superior.””But then she frames his statement as elitist, writing about how few people have that choice.She finishes with: “I don’t think it’s unusual for men to find childbirth uncomfortable or scary to watch, and becoming a dad can be a rough transition for many; there’s a whole genre of internet videos of dads passing out in the delivery room. But I don’t think saying that watching women give birth is “disgusting and unnatural” is the best way to start this conversation. Galloway told me in an email, “The broader point I was making — clumsily — is that we should be honest about the different experiences people have rather than prescriptive about what every father must feel or do. Some dads experience profound bonding in the first weeks; others find their stride later. Both are valid.”I wholeheartedly agree with that sentiment.”This is exactly why we don’t have very many left-leaning pronatalists.* On one hand we have a woman who has unreasonable demands for a pet project* On the other hand we have a man trying to share a relatable view and espouse practical solutions“The New Right’s Very Old Vision of Men”https://www.nytimes.com/2026/06/05/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-helen-lewis-gender-right.htmlhttps://archive.is/kuEGGThis is an episode of the Ezra Klein show with Helen Lewis as they discuss a concept she wrote about and refers to as masculinism.They open with clips of Bronze Age Pervert and Tucker Carlson yearning for “the ancient Hittite Empire or the ancient Mitanni Empire” and “what we had before Betty Friedan wrote “The Feminine Mystique,” before lifestyle feminism dominated every institution in the West.”They argue:* There is a coherent masculinist ideology on the American right that goes far beyond the online “manosphere” provocateurs like Andrew Tate.* Its central claim: modernity and liberal democracy have “thwarted” true masculinity, which is defined around hierarchy, dominance, risk‑taking, and clear gender roles (male breadwinner, female homemaker).* Figures like Raw Egg Nationalist, Bronze Age Pervert (Costin Alamariu), Helen Andrews, JD Vance, Doug Wilson, and parts of Heritage’s agenda are all different expressions of this same ideological current.They talk about various concerns expressed within the sphere of masculinism (from dropping testosterone to boys’ struggles in schools, male suicide, endorcine-disrupting chemicals, sedentary work, etc.)Their primary criticism of it center around:* A lack of what they find to be empty or incoherent intellectualism* Klein keeps finding “less there than I thought”: beneath the grand talk of thymos, Nietzsche and liberal decadence, the arguments often collapse into trivial lifestyle advice (e.g. “throw out your plastic chopping board”) or conspiratorial hormone politics.* They argue that much of the literature swaps serious argument for trolling, irony and “vibes,” making claims hard to pin down and allowing proponents to dodge accountability for what they’re actually saying.* The movement’s misogyny* Historical nostalgia and bad faith use of “the past”* FAIR.* They argue the movement builds on mythic, cherry‑picked pasts: a fake 1950s Pleasantville, a sanitized Rome or Sparta, or vague “longhouse” matriarchies that collapse under any concrete historical scrutiny.* The movement’s contempt for liberal self‑restraint and equality* They find masculinists overly valorize aggression, domination, and hierarchy* Klein argues healthy masculinity is a matter of self mastery* The self-helpishness of the movement* The looksmaxxing* The extreme body aesthetics (steroid use)* Their allegedly exploiting real male distress in exploitative ways* They say masculinists focus too much on butthurt and hierarchy and not on actual constructive reforms* Their policy threat* E.g. pushback on no-fault divorce* The tone* Klein emphasizes that the movement’s heroes (like* Trump and Nick Fuentes) embody disinhibition, cruelty, and narcissism rather than courage, responsibility, or fatherhood; he calls this a “terrible vision” of adulthood and manhood.Episode Transcript[00:00:00] Simone Collins: Hello, Malcolm. I’m excited to be speaking with you today, because The New York Times seems to be, in some either organized or unintentional fashion making a stance on what masculinity is, really trying to shape the narrative in a very, like, kind of obvious way.[00:00:15] Malcolm Collins: Is it, is it bopping your kids?[00:00:17] Simone Collins: N- no. No, no, no, no. It’s- No, no,[00:00:19] Malcolm Collins: no, no, no, no, no.[00:00:20] Simone Collins: They don’t get to- ... the opposite of that. And I started falling down this rabbit hole when I saw this tweet on X at Alex Berenson wrote, “Cannot make this up either. @NYTimesOpinion has had four recent pieces about fatherhood and masculinity with six authors.[00:00:36] Three women, a trans man, two childless men. Not one father. The cultural elite contempt for dads runs so deep that we don’t even get to speak for ourselves.” He didn’t directly reference all of the four articles in his, his post, so I-[00:00:54] Malcolm Collins: The trans article was really creepy.[00:00:56] Simone Collins: The trans article, we we’re gonna go...[00:00:58] That’s our first one. But I did, I did, I think I found the four of them. There is, “To My Daughter, My Gender Was Never Complicated.” This is the- Trans one that Malcolm alluded to. We’re gonna look at The, The Most Important Way That Fatherhood Has Changed, a Father’s Day themed essay on changing perspectives on fatherhood.[00:01:17] This masculinity influencer is loud and wrong about paternity leave, which is criticizing Scott Galloway’s stance on paternity leave and broader masculinity issues. Him being a left-leaning pronatalist, and one of the only ones. Mm. So great. Thanks, guys. And then finally, The New Right’s Very Old Vision of Men which is from the Ezra Klein podcast actually, where he has on Helen Lewis.[00:01:41] So two people I think are great and, but no, they have to talk about basically reframe the entire... They call it, I think, well, we’ll, we’ll get into it. Some, some name that Helen Lewis has chosen for the masculinity, masculinity movement, like raw nationalist and bronze per- pervert and a bunch of other people in our broader space.[00:02:00] But why they’re like shallow and evil. So this[00:02:04] Malcolm Collins: is very much- These people are awesome. Hold on. No, the thing is, is we will replace them. None of these people who are whining about what it means to be a dad is a real dad. Well,[00:02:12] Simone Collins: and you’ll see this actually. And here’s who’s gonna replace them. So what I think is interesting is this, this is their attempt to frame this is what masculinity is or should be.[00:02:19] This is what fatherwood- fatherhood is or should be. And in so doing, they actually, I think, explain exactly your point, why they are going to be replaced, why they are not going to inherit the future. Ooh. Because the views they express are inherently unsustainable and not going to produce something that helps humans thrive in the end which I think is telling.[00:02:44] So let’s jive right in to the one that really got X clutching its pearls in such a way that they just burst into powder. To my daughter, my gender was never complicated. This was a series of cartoon panels about a trans father who underwent surgery at 18 and has lived as a father of a daughter mostly, mostly not quite out actually for quite some time.[00:03:11] And it’s supposed to be- Okay ... this heartwarming story about h- how a parent has found self-acceptance through parenting. And on the surface, like, I really like that because, as you know, I have to give myself grace more now, knowing that our children are a lot like me and that some of the most difficult things about them are traits that are deep from within me, and I have to...[00:03:34] It’s a whole thing. I like that. But so for those of you just listening, the panels include things like his daughter yelling, .” How did you grow a mustache if you were a lady?” at a public pool where this father is not out. His daughter asking about a pre-transition picture of him in an album and asking, “Who’s that?”.[00:03:53] And the father says, “It’s me.” “Oh, you look cool. Then or now?” “Then.” [00:04:00] She’s just full of sick burns, honestly. He- Just[00:04:02] burns ...[00:04:03] he has some panels about worrying about his daughter outing him at school where she talks about like, “Oh, my mommy, I, I told them how my mommy made a cake for you after your surgery.”[00:04:14] And he, he says, “I don’t actually tell everyone I’m trans. I save that for special people.” And then eventually she does out him, saying that she wants to grow a beard when she grows up, and when told that she can’t, she insists that she can because her dad did and he was a girl.[00:04:29] And[00:04:30] Malcolm Collins: some more- Oh, then it’s not grooming at all.[00:04:32] Simone Collins: No, I know, I know, I know. Some other sick burns from her that I love-[00:04:35] Malcolm Collins: I love how they just, they’re, they’re always like, they’re always like this. They’re always like, “We’re not grooming people.” We’re not[00:04:40] Simone Collins: doing that.[00:04:40] Malcolm Collins: And then they show an example of a kid growing up in an environment where this is normalized wanting to do it themself,[00:04:45] Simone Collins: and they don’t- I thought I would marry a woman and have 100 cats and live in a van,[00:04:49] Malcolm Collins: okay?[00:04:49] You, like you literally thought the norm was being a lesbian. And, and, and the-[00:04:52] Simone Collins: I know I did. I really did, ‘cause all my friends[00:04:55] Malcolm Collins: grew up in San Francisco. You[00:04:55] Simone Collins: grew[00:04:55] Malcolm Collins: up in San Francisco. Yeah ... and it’s, you know, I think that one of the things To remember is that grooming is normal to an extent, right? Like, in that everybody grows up into the culture, or often into the culture, th- they’re surrounded by when they’re a kid, and that’s often the culture’s goal.[00:05:14] This is why at the San Francisco Cho- Choir, you know, they’re saying, “We are coming for your kids.” Because these groups breed at well below replacement rate. The only way they can be stable is by converting children from other cultural groups. Mm. They just need to define this, and those children would normally be groomed into their own healthy culture, right?[00:05:31] But now they are being parasitized into cultures that their birth culture typically would see as negative. And that by the statistics seems to have negative outcomes in terms of mental health, life happiness, et cetera. But continue.[00:05:48] Simone Collins: Just two more sick burns from the daughter before we go over the backlash.[00:05:53] And it, it is, this is really an affront on Father’s Day. She said, “You’re slow ‘cause you’re old.” I, which is just kind of a young person thing to say, but I love it. And at one point she, she told her dad, “Maybe I’ll be like you when I grow up,” and he’s like, “Yeah?” And I think he’s thinking maybe, like, trans like me or something, but she’s like, “Yeah, really short,” which is just delightful.[00:06:15] This girl is really funny. And I think that, you know, the, the, the parent who was able to notice the humor in these moments is funny. But the backlash, ooh, the, a lot of people on X didn’t like it. @RealBrandonGill wrote, “On Father’s Day, The New York Times decided to pronote- promote a cartoon of a woman cosplaying as a father, and they did it for a reason.[00:06:35] Because the cultural left knows that the first step to conquering the future is brainwashing the minds of our children, and they’ve realized that strong fathers are the biggest obstacle to that goal. They want to tear the institution of fatherhood down to nothing because to the left, things that are normal, good, and holy are a threat to the Marxist revolution.”[00:06:56] Matt Taibbi wrote, “Today’s NYT editorial on Father’s Day is an all-timer.” Again, I don’t know where to put it on the funny versus horrifying axis. @EndWokeness wrote, “The New York Times on Father’s Day. We do not hate the media enough.” Caitlin Finne- Flanagan wrote, “The child’s job was to help the parent feel comfortable with his gender.”[00:07:17] And @AfterTheReset, “Message aside, is it necessary for the cartoons to be ugly, poorly drawn, and unappealing?” And per our episode on communists and terrifyingly badass girls-[00:07:29] Malcolm Collins: Yes, and now we’re like, “Oh, that’s the point” ... like, that’s why they do it. Yeah. Yeah, but the problem is that they’ve so promulgated it within their culture specifically that the other side is, i- you know, we can compete with our sexy anime girls made with, with AI.[00:07:43] In fact, you know, why don’t I put in a sexy Simone right now just so everyone can see my-[00:07:47] Oh, my God. Okay, great ... my hot German anime waifu. Thanks. The, the... I, I think, I think we, we can beat them because we get the sexy art, and we can make it- ... for virtually free. Go to RFAB. By the way, if you’re wondering the model that I [00:08:00] use most for these, it’s RFAB’s GPT model is the one- Oh[00:08:04] that’s best for the-[00:08:04] Simone Collins: No way ... producing sexy[00:08:05] Malcolm Collins: German women. Yeah.[00:08:06] Simone Collins: Really? Mm-hmm. I’m just so used to GPT art being h- awful. Like, the, the short legs. You know what I’m talking about, the short legs. Did they get over that, I guess?[00:08:16] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. It’s great. I mean, I, I like... If you’ve liked the images that I show, they’re genuine- Yeah[00:08:21] GPT, Maybe[00:08:22] Simone Collins: it’s just better at anime. Hmm.[00:08:24] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, I mean, I, I tell it to do it in an anime style. Yeah. You know, so.[00:08:28] Simone Collins: Okay.[00:08:28] Malcolm Collins: Oh,[00:08:28] Simone Collins: ooh. Hold on,[00:08:31] Malcolm Collins: buddy. But I mean, if we can fight asynchronous warfare where everything in their world has to be ugly... And I do think the other point that the person made here is really interesting about this- Yeah[00:08:38] is the piece and the focus was on his daughter affirming his lifestyle.[00:08:45] Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like- Which by the way actually i- is an affront to the concept of Father’s Day and Mother’s Day, which isn’t about This is about me. This is my day. These holidays existed to be a memorial to the sacrifice and hard work that parents do.[00:09:05] Yeah. Not of, like, the affirming role that their children play for them. So Father’s Day was sort of, it was inspired by Mother’s Day- ... which was founded by this woman named Anna Maria Jarvis. She wanted to create- ... a solemn memorial Mother’s Day honoring the sacrifices and care of individual mothers.[00:09:26] Inspired by her mother, Ann Reeves who had done all sorts of, like, amazing things to help, like, just sort of community works and things like that. But Father’s Day, even more so- ... is really about, like, immense sacrifice to help raise your kids. So Father’s Day was founded by Sonora Smart Dodd of Spokane, Washington, who heard about Mother’s Day-[00:09:48] and was like, “Hold on,” like, “Dads need this.” ‘Cause her Civil War veteran dad raised her and her siblings alone after her mother died. So this is about dads going above and beyond, sacrificing their happiness and their wellbeing and their sanity to take care of their children. And- Hmm ... yeah, I mean, this is not really, I would say, in the at least original spirit of Father’s Day.[00:10:09] Even though I find it relatable as a parent I, I do think that our kids teach us how to give grace to ourselves or accept ourselves better, but that’s not what being a parent should be about, ever. It should not be about self-affirmation.[00:10:25] Malcolm Collins: And, and that’s wild. This reframing of parenthood as an act of self-affirmation,[00:10:30] Simone Collins: which- And that’s, again, that’s part of the problem.[00:10:31] Like, again, to the theme of this episode, this is why the progressive left is not going to inherit the future, is because they, they’re not having children out of a sense of duty or obligation, self-sacrifice. They’re having it as, an ef- and even contextualizing it as sort of an indulgent my spiritual journey, my journey of self-acceptance kind of thing.[00:10:56] And it’s th- this, this, this parent is so in their head about their trans identity, for example. One kid who already wants[00:11:07] to sterilize[00:11:08] themselves. There’s even a panel in the, there’s even a panel in the, the, the, she, the, sorry. The, the author includes where the daughter, they’re in a park, and the daughter’s like, “I spot something, it starts with a T.[00:11:19] Can you guess what it is?” Basically, and the, the father’s like, “Aw.” Like, can only think of trans. Can only think of trans in a park, and is like, “A termite? A tiny morsel of dirt?” Like, coming up with all these things and, and the daughter’s just like, “Trees.” It just, I think demonstrates the extent to which this parent is so preoccupied with their own identity[00:11:43] Malcolm Collins: and- Yeah, they can’t even see...[00:11:44] Well, what a great metaphor. They can’t even see the trees in a park.[00:11:48] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:11:48] Malcolm Collins: They can’t even see the trees around them. They, they can’t see the tree. It’s, it’s- The woods for, the[00:11:52] Simone Collins: woods for the trees. Yes. Is that what you’re going for here?[00:11:55] Malcolm Collins: Yes. Okay. Yeah. But they’re, to, to miss the world around them so [00:12:00] holistically-[00:12:00] Simone Collins: Yeah[00:12:01] Malcolm Collins: out of a focus on their own identity.[00:12:03] Simone Collins: Yeah. And this, again, like I, I find it a relatable message. I think it’s, it’s sweet, but it’s also, I think, very telling, and it is, it is a bit of an affront to the original point of the holiday. By the way, Malcolm, thank you for your sacrifice. I was, we were so busy on Sunday that I, We’re gonna have to do a delayed Father’s Day, and I’m really sorry.[00:12:23] Malcolm Collins: No,[00:12:23] what?[00:12:23] Simone Collins: You’re an amazing dad. You’re such an amazing dad. You, you sacrifice more than any other man I’ve ever encountered. You put yourself on the front lines of parenthood in a way that no father or husband I’ve ever met will. Like- Mm ... that you’re always the one that takes the kids to the doctor- I don’t know if that’s true.[00:12:38] You’ve been doing a lot recently ... you’re alw- always the one the kids are with on the weekends. Though you’re always the one-[00:12:43] Malcolm Collins: He’s started coding.[00:12:44] Simone Collins: I, I, well, look, we need to, we need to get something to work there, and you’re doing a really great job. But you are amazing- Well, I mean, we are happy- ... and I appreciate you[00:12:56] Malcolm Collins: I’ve built out all of the core features. Right now we’re just working on extra stuff, like a integrated email management feature, which- We’re very excited about ... hopefully save... I mean, w- if I can get email off of my daily to-do list, that would save me so much time.[00:13:09] Simone Collins: Same. Yeah, especially, yeah, ‘cause w- now there’s more coming in than we can manage, but we still don’t wanna not read everyone’s message.[00:13:16] So if we just make it slightly more efficient, and you’re making it crazy more efficient. Anyway, let’s go into the next article which is titled The Most Important Way that Fatherhood Has Changed. Mm. In this article, Frank Bruni, who is a childless contributing opinion writer who’s been on staff-[00:13:33] Malcolm Collins: Why?[00:13:34] Why did they let a childless writer write this?[00:13:36] Simone Collins: Well, so I think he believes that he is in a position to talk about fatherhood because he’s talking about it from a removed perspective. In this article he talks about- Mm ... the difference between the way his father raised him and his brother, and the way- Mm.[00:13:53] Mm ... and his brothers, and the way that his brothers have in turn raised their children. And he talks about how fathers are spending more time with their kids now. He cites an article that suggests one reason fertility is lower is that men want to give the kids they do have more attention- Lame ... which he frames as a good thing,[00:14:12] Malcolm Collins: and- Don’t spend time with your kids.[00:14:13] Walk up, hit ‘em, walk away. Oh, my God. That’s, whether they’ve done something bad or not. Yeah. Kids love being hit.[00:14:18] Simone Collins: No, honestly, they, our, our kids really do. They really like fighting. They- And if you don’t do it, they’ll start it so that you do do it. Octavia- Watch out, ‘cause they hit hard ...[00:14:26] Malcolm Collins: dropping on the floor to try to kick me in the nuts in the store.[00:14:28] Simone Collins: What?[00:14:30] Malcolm Collins: This is a real thing that just happened yesterday.[00:14:35] Simone Collins: Yeah, all these other pliant children in their shopping carts. Octavian coming in for the kill. Classic. But yeah this again is, is I think that constant theme. This is why the progressive left is, is choosing to relinquish its position in the future.[00:14:49] There is this choice to indulgently spend more time investing in children. But I think what’s really telling about his article is that the examples he cites on like, well, here’s this valuable additional investment that these children have vis-a-vis his 90-something-year-old father who is just a provider.[00:15:09] These, these parents are getting emotionally involved in their kids’ lives, and they are... here’s one example. He wrote, “Mark,” and this is his brother, “Mark encouraged his children to let him in by inviting them- To understand him. He made sure that they met and mingled with his adult friends, and thus observed how he tended relationships and what they meant to him.[00:15:30] He also showed his children his passions. “I took Frank to a Grateful Dead concert when he was 12,” Mark told me, referring to his oldest son, who like me, is named after my father. But that outing wasn’t just characteristically ardent Deadhead evangelism and, well, unorthodox parenting. It reflected Mark’s sustained effort to expand the time that he and his, and Frank spent together.[00:15:51] The more hours, the more conversation, the more, the more conversation, the greater the likelihood of serendipitous revelations- Why see a dad going to a- ... real [00:16:00] familiarity, deeper connection. So basically, this father was like, “This is my passion. Witness me.” And you know, he made his son go and listen. And listen, I like Grateful Dead music.[00:16:10] I thought I was a Deadhead when I was a kid, ‘cause my father too shared his Grateful Dead passion with me. But it wasn’t that aspect of my growing up with him that was actually helpful. What, what he’s missing here, what Frank Bruni is missing I think, is that investment in children is not all equal.[00:16:24] The investment in children in their careers, in the way that like Benjamin Franklin’s father invested in him, walking him along the street, showing him different trades, asking him what stood out to him. The way that my dad, for example, invested in me. Taking me to work with him, helping me get jobs teaching me what business m- meetings look like, taking me to trade shows.[00:16:40] Like, this, this is really valuable investment, and this is stuff that I think parents are really missing. You know, they’re, they’re treating children like pets. Like this thing where like, “Oh, you’re gonna see how I, you know, my friends, and I’m gonna raise you to be this indulgent, happy person, and we’re gonna be like emotionally so close.”[00:16:59] And it’s true that younger generations now are closer like friends to their parents than ever before, but they’re also more mentally sick. And I don’t know- Yeah ... like there’s, there’s no proven causation. There is this- But it’s not great ...[00:17:10] Malcolm Collins: optimization of closeness without thought for the long-term negative effects.[00:17:15] That’s not great ... and there are going to be long-term negative effects for the way that they’re raising their kids like this. And worse, the way he’s spending money. Look, a father going to a concert? W- what? Paying for a ticket for your kid? That is not sustainable if you have a large family.[00:17:32] Simone Collins: Yeah, and, and way to...[00:17:33] Hopefully he had him wear earplugs. That’s a very easy path to early hearing loss, which is not, not great. But yeah, here’s... The next one made me so angry because we, you know, have personally tried so hard for there to be, to encourage the existence of and, and foster the growth of progressive or left-leaning at least pronatalists.[00:17:59] And yet here is one, and- Scott Galloway ... the New York Times opinion is, yeah, Scott Galloway defenestrating him for holding a very practical and pragmatic view vis-à-vis paternity leave. So in this particular opinion piece, Jessica Grove or sorry, Grose, who is a, she is a mother, but she’s a woman of, of two children in Brooklyn.[00:18:21] She denounces Scott Galloway’s stance on paternity leave. And again, see, Scott Galloway, he, he considers himself, I think, more like center-left or a social capitalist, but he’s still as far, as far as it can get when, when you’re left-leaning and pronatalist.[00:18:38] Yeah.[00:18:38] And in this interview with Derek Thompson-[00:18:40] Galloway said, quote, “I think there should be mandatory maternity leave because I think the species needs to propagate. I’m not sure there should be mandatory paternity leave. I think it sometimes creates resentment. I think sometimes it’s abused. And so I’m a bit capitalist here. I think it’s between the company but I don’t know if I immediately default to, oh, the father needs to be there.”[00:19:04] Grose added, this is the au- the author of the op-ed. Galloway also commented that he doesn’t think men should be in the delivery room. Quote, “I thought that it was so disgusting and unnatural,” he says. When I asked Galloway if he had a response to the backlash he’s been getting over these comments, he said over email, “My comments were intentionally provocative in the context of a friendly, snarky conversation with Derek.”[00:19:28] Which It’s s- it, it’s like exactly the kind of thing that I think many fathers can relate to. And making these conversations open and transparent I think is crucial and important. Like, w- when people pretend that like the birthing experience is beautiful, especially for men-[00:19:47] Malcolm Collins: Ugh. I don’t- That, that- I do not go.[00:19:49] My wife doesn’t have me come to the delivery room. Like, I mean, you-[00:19:51] Simone Collins: Well, yeah, and there was the one time where you were in, in with me with the C-section, and you were like, look. Like you were so uncomfortable. And, and trying to force this on men, or even [00:20:00] worse, to sell them this fantasy of like you’re gonna love being a baby daddy, like a, a, a, a, a father of an infant.[00:20:06] You’re gonna love being in the delivery room. Will then set men up to think, “Oh, gosh, like I, I actually don’t like this, so this means I’m not gonna like to be a father at all.” Yeah,[00:20:16] Malcolm Collins: I’m not gonna like all the other stuff.[00:20:18] Simone Collins: And actually in, in his, in his talk, Galloway makes it clear that it gets better.[00:20:25] So I’ll keep going. Sh- so she also noted in her op-ed I’m reading from it now, “Poor Derek Thompson tried to push back and launch a defense of parental leave. Most of the gap between prime age adult male and female earnings is a motherhood penalty, and so one benefit of paternity leave is that it puts men and women on a relatively more equal standing.”[00:20:46] To which Galloway replies, “By lowering the economic standards of a man?” Which is a super like valid retort.[00:20:53] Malcolm Collins: Reasonable point, yes.[00:20:54] Simone Collins: Yeah. She proceeded, however, to cite research finding that paid paternity leave in Quebec did not fix the motherhood penalty for women, nor did it substantially hurt men’s economic standards.[00:21:06] So good for you. But then she also attempts to exploit that not a baby man, which I talk about like there’s like 10% of men who are like they love babies. They just, infants, like they, they, they wanna hold them, et cetera, but like most men aren’t. But she tries to exploit his, Scott Galloway’s not, disinterest in babies with this.[00:21:27] She wrote, “It gets worse. Thompson, who is still glowing from the birth of his second child, shares a very sweet story and, and how he feels an enormous upsurge of instinct how to parent my child. Thompson adds, ‘I love discovering a new piece of myself in parenting.’ Galloway doesn’t even seem to be listening to Thompson because his response is- The bad news is it just sucks for the dad.[00:21:49] We pretend to like it. Galloway thinks dads are full of it when they say they like babies. They’re awful. As a new dad, your job is to make sure your moms don’t lose it, and get some sleep, and keep the baby away from bodies of water. That’s literally your only two jobs right now, or if the only two things that you’re any good at.[00:22:08] At about two or three it starts to get less awful, and then by four or five it almost becomes fun. That’s what Scott Galloway said, and she’s quoting him in her article. And I think you would, like, you have said almost the same thing, and other very pro-natalist and kid-loving fathers that we know and trust and love, who are very culturally different from us as well, have said the same thing, that they’re just not into kids before they turn, like, five basically.[00:22:31] And then, like-[00:22:31] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and then they get awesome.[00:22:33] Simone Collins: Yeah. And so that this woman is shaming Scott Galloway for expressing an extremely pervasive view held by fathers, and making Galloway seem like kind of a monster for doing so is It’s both, like, unfair and un- and, and, and f- and fairly cruel, but also I would argue pretty anti-natalist.[00:22:55] Because again, if you make men think- Yeah ... like, “Oh, this is not normal, this is bad, this must mean that I’ll ne- not like anything about being a father,” they might decide to get a vasectomy. They might decide to just give up on that and have just one kid. Well, the[00:23:08] Malcolm Collins: thing that really hit me recently is the day when I decided to go with you because you’re doing your next implantation, which we’ve done recently, so hopefully you’re pregnant.[00:23:15] Everyone be praying. Fingers[00:23:16] Simone Collins: crossed ...[00:23:17] Malcolm Collins: and getting in the car and driving out, and I realized at no point did it occur to me to not do this. At no point- Hmm ... did I sit down and think, “Do I really want another kid? Can we really afford another kid? Does this make sense for our family?” It was just a regular yearly activity happening when it happened.[00:23:37] And it reminded me, in the same way when we read that piece about the early stage abortion and the I Met My Husband at a Gang Bang episode. Watch that episode if you want to. It’s traumatizing. But, Mm ... that was when the radicalized Simone against early stage abortion. If y- if you haven’t seen it, watch.[00:23:53] It’s w- I think one of our craziest episodes. It’ll start with you being all mad if you’re a conservative, and then you’re like, “Wait, this is c- what? [00:24:00] What?” But- Mm. Mm. Mm ... when she went to have an abortion, there was no moment leading up to the abortion that she really considered keeping the baby. It was-[00:24:11] Simone Collins: Yeah, there was...[00:24:12] It was unthinkable. Of course. Just like it’s unthinkable for us not to try for kid six, yeah.[00:24:17] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And I realized that that’s the way it needs to be. Like, not having kids needs to be completely unthinkable in a marriage. That is how you make this work for you, for your kids, for the way you make this work.[00:24:29] In the same way that... And, and when do we start? In fact, let’s just lay this out. When do you start with intechno-puritanism? At the maximum, whether or not you’re financially stable, two years after you’re married.[00:24:43] Simone Collins: Yeah, that makes sense. Oi. Yeah.[00:24:46] Malcolm Collins: And if you, and if you, and if you can start before that, better[00:24:50] Simone Collins: Yeah, the sooner, the sooner the better, for sure.[00:24:53] Yeah. It just, so that’s super unfair. She, she also imposes another unfair implication on Scott Galloway. She says, “Scott Galloway is entitled to his feelings about parenting babies. I’m sure he’s not alone.” Oh, you’re sure. “But what I’m objecting to is the unsaid implication that it’s super fun for moms all the time, while also talking to a man who seems to be wholeheartedly enjoying his small children.”[00:25:21] First, he’s not implying that it’s fun for moms all the time. What he’s implying when he’s like, “Oh, you can only do two things: try to get some sleep and, like, make sure the baby’s not close to bodies of water,” is that, like, mothers are dependent or, like, the ones who have the, the breast milk. Like, you can’t really substitute that.[00:25:37] I mean, I, you, you can obviously do formula or you can feed bottles of breast milk, but if, if a woman is lactating, like, you can’t lactate for her. You can’t really do that. And women who are newly postpartum have also gone through a bunch of hormonal shifts, which I would argue make them more tolerant of sleep deprivation, make them more capable of not being super stressed about taking care of a screaming infant in the middle of the night or something like that than a father was.[00:26:03] I mean, things do change when you become a father, but not in the same way they do for someone who’s been pregnant for nine months. So I just think it’s not, it’s not even fair. And then she frames his statement, As elitist. When he tries to defend himself when given a chance to comment on this article she, she wrote, “When I asked Galloway if he was familiar with any of his research, she said, ‘My point wasn’t that...’[00:26:26] Or sorry, he said, Galloway said, ‘My point wasn’t that maternity leave is bad. It’s that we should be honest about trade-offs and let families make decisions based on their circumstances rather than treating one model as morally superior.’” Which she’s clearly doing. She’s like, “Well- Yeah ... maternity leave is, is categorically better.[00:26:43] There’s no, there’s no ambiguity. The studies say-”[00:26:46] Malcolm Collins: Nuance.[00:26:47] Simone Collins: Yeah. There’s, there’s no nuance there. But, but he is, he is elitist because she’s like, “Well, not everyone has that choice.” And she, she finishes with, “I don’t think it’s unusual for men. to find childbirth uncomfortable or scary , to watch, and becoming a dad is a rough transition for many.[00:27:10] There’s a whole genre of internet videos of dads passing out in the delivery room.” Which I now need to explore. But-[00:27:16] Malcolm Collins: Wait, really?[00:27:17] Simone Collins: I, yeah, I need, I need to check this out. “I don’t think that saying that watching women give birth is, quote, ‘disgusting and unnatural,’ end quote, is the best way to start this conversation.[00:27:27] Galloway told me in an email, ‘The broader point I was making, clumsily, is that we should be honest about the different experiences people have rather than the perspectives about what every father must feel or do. Some dads experience profound bonding in the first few weeks. Others find their stride later.[00:27:43] Both are valid.’” And she says- Good talk, Galloway ... he wholeheartedly agrees with that statement, but only after an article criticizing him for it. And Galloway’s making such an important point that, you know, you’re not, not all dads feel this, like, love at first sight thing with their kids. Yeah. Like y- you really don’t.[00:27:59] You’re [00:28:00] like, “I need a paternity test. I don’t know about this.” Like, and that’s natural. You are the most loving dad I’ve ever met. You adore our children. Like sometimes when I am like, “I, I, I need a moment,” you, you really don’t. Y- you’re just always there for them. Yeah,[00:28:14] Malcolm Collins: I’m never like, “I need a moment.”[00:28:15] I’m always available for the kids.[00:28:17] Simone Collins: Yeah. L- and then that’s- But you’re still, you’re not a baby man. And it’s, so, so that’s the thing, is like she’s communicating this, this, this really bad lie. So anyway, this is, yeah, facet number three is the one leftist pronatalist who has a really big profile gets defenestrated[00:28:37] Malcolm Collins: for- Defenestrated by The New York Times[00:28:38] Simone Collins: sharing realistic policy positions and trying to make men who don’t love babies not feel like they’re just gonna be bad fathers and not suited to be parents at all. Okay? Great. Thanks, New York Times. So now we get to the new right’s very old vision of men. This is an episode of the Ezra Klein Show with Helen Lewis.[00:28:56] They discuss this concept she wrote about and refers to as masculinism. So they, they open with clips of Bronze Age Pervert and Tucker Carlson, who are yearning for the ancient Hittite Empire, or ancient Mittani Empire, or what we had before Betty Friedan wrote The Feminine Mystique and before-[00:29:15] Malcolm Collins: But we need to talk about this, ‘cause this is just not...[00:29:17] But question, Simone, question.[00:29:19] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah.[00:29:20] Malcolm Collins: Total side note. Should I get Octavian another Game Boy emulator?[00:29:24] Simone Collins: Well, he was really jealous of Tex’s chew toy that looks like a Game Boy,[00:29:29] Malcolm Collins: so. It’s $59. I, they, the-[00:29:31] Simone Collins: Oh, you’re just browsing Prime Day ... the one I’m thinking[00:29:35] Malcolm Collins: about. I was-[00:29:35] Simone Collins: I was wondering why a white light reflected in those glasses of yours[00:29:39] Malcolm Collins: I know. Hold, you gotta listen to me. This is actually important. So it, it turns out that it, the, the model that’s the best and the most robust, because I, that’s what specifically what I’m looking for, is not discounted for Prime Day, which doesn’t cost that much. And-[00:29:53] Simone Collins: Oh, because we have time.[00:29:54] Malcolm Collins: No, we-[00:29:55] Simone Collins: Look, he broke it.[00:29:55] They break everything. I, I don’t think we need to teach him- Well,[00:29:59] Malcolm Collins: that’s why I’m trying to get something more robust ...[00:30:01] Simone Collins: when we break something you just get a new one.[00:30:03] Malcolm Collins: He broke it over a year ago at this point. Come on.[00:30:08] Simone Collins: See, you’re more forgiving than I am. Oh, sir.[00:30:10] Malcolm Collins: So we’ll let the audience decide.[00:30:12] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:30:12] Does our kid- The audience will decide. Yeah, yes or no to the... Please no, Tex. Oh my God. So, right. So basically they open with these, you know, right, right-leaning influencers, although Tucker Carlson, I think just to be clear, he’s not a Republican about, like, yearning for the, the earlier days. What they argue essentially in this episode trying to basically encapsulate and then comment on the broader, like, masculinity sphere, is that there is this coherent masculinist ideology on the American light, right, sorry, the American right, that goes way beyond just, like, manosphere provocateurs like Andrew Tate.[00:30:52] That the central claim of masculinism is that modernity is, is broken, especially for men. It is, it is thwarted masculinity. There’s dropping testosterone. There’s dropping fertility. Men are ill-suited for this kind of society, and they, Think that true masculinity centers around hierarchy and dominance and risk-taking and clear gender roles with male breadwinners- Well, this,[00:31:18] Malcolm Collins: this is all true[00:31:20] Simone Collins: and then they, they point to figures like Raw Egg Nationalist, who we consider to be a friend and really like. Bronze Age Pervert, Helen Andrews, who wrote the Foundation[00:31:29] Malcolm Collins: for- Oh,[00:31:29] Simone Collins: by the way, we’ve had Raw Egg[00:31:30] Malcolm Collins: Nationalist on the show. If anyone has a contact to Milo or Bronze Age Pervert, I’d love to have both of them on the show.[00:31:35] Simone Collins: Truly. They include JD Vance in all this, Doug Wilson parts of Heritage’s agenda. And we love Heritage Foundation, so, like, we take this all very personally. They talk about various concerns expressed with mac- masculinism. I think their, their primary criticism, and it is abundant. They s- I- they, they spend a lot of time.[00:31:55] This is, like, all that was playing in my office all afternoon. They don’t like... [00:32:00] They think it has incoherent intellectualism. Klein keeps finding that there’s less here than I thought be- beneath this, for his, for his stance, grand talk of thumos and Nietzsche and liberal decadence, and the arguments often collapse, per his argument, into trivial lifestyle advice like, “Throw out your plastic chopping board,” or conspiratorial hormone politics.[00:32:26] Or as Bronze Age Pervert would write, “w***e-mones.” They- W***e-mones. W***e-mones. Yes, he knows[00:32:32] what’s up.[00:32:33] He knows what’s up. They argue that a lot of the literature swaps serious argument for just trolling or irony and vibes. Meaning that it’s, it’s- No,[00:32:41] Malcolm Collins: they miss it. They don’t understand what’s happening.[00:32:44] Simone Collins: Yeah, they, they don’t, they don’t yeah, they, they just sort of completely misread it. Like, they don’t understand the trolling. They don’t understand the aesthetics.[00:32:53] Malcolm Collins: If you watch our show, you will note that a lot of our show is trolling feeling. Yeah. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a lot of substance to it.[00:33:02] There is[00:33:03] Simone Collins: substance. There is research. There is-[00:33:08] The trolling is authenticating. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the, yeah, the trolling is a, a sign of authenticity and a way to socially signal what we’ve called, I think, what, performative vice to say, like, we are gen- like, that we’re doing the opposite of vir- virtue signaling. Like, signaling vice to the extent that it will hurt our reputation just to show you that we have no desire to be seen as good or smart for example.[00:33:30] Of course, they also highlight the movement’s misogyny. They, and this is actually the argument that F- Misogyny? Come on ... that we’ve also made. Yeah.[00:33:38] Malcolm Collins: Dude, literally. The reason, like, we have no misogynistic opinion The only reason we don’t want women to vote is because they keep voting for the wrong candidate. I, I’m joking of course. The real reason why it’s bad for women to vote is because if voting is a proxy for force, so basically the reason you vote is, like, if you went to war, who would actually win of the two perspectives?[00:34:05] And women wouldn’t be included in that fighting force. Then eventually you create an asymmetry where it may make sense for a faction of the population to just capture power via war. So suppose, as is increasingly happening, all of the women are sorting into one population bloc- voting bloc, and all the men are voting for another candidate, and then the male candidate loses, and then the men just say, “Well, f**k it.[00:34:26] I don’t care anymore.” And this is why democracy prevents that, but it doesn’t prevent it when you allow women to vote.[00:34:32] Simone Collins: Right. And, but they, they... In- instead of hearing this, like, let’s talk about the misaligned incentives and how this is all playing out, what they just see and what they talk about in their podcast is like, this...[00:34:44] They, they’re just anti-democracy and they’re just pro-violence. And they don’t really go deeper than that because they just... I, maybe they lack the capacity to read this more closely. Like, you really have to be looking at the problems in a very critical way. Well, they still acknowledge the problems.[00:34:58] Like, they acknowledge that boys are, are completely, you know, maladapted for the schools the way they’re set up now. They, they acknowledge that there’s a health crisis and there’s too much sedentary life and everything. So they, they say that these are very real issues, but then they criticize the movement for Using it to exploit young men, for example with this sort of, like, self-helpishness that isn’t actually self-help.[00:35:22] It, the long story short, ‘cause I could go into so much more detail, is that this, this is a podcast that has huge, huge viewership, that’s, that is made by very thoughtful people, Ezra Klein is, is very thoughtful and I think very well-meaning. But it’s still trying to frame this movement that is questioning modern norms in a way that isn’t intended to damage its credibility and stifle conversation about those genuine problems which they even acknowledge to be real.[00:35:53] Which I think is very annoying and grating. But also because they’re not dedicated to actually solving these problems in a [00:36:00] way that could lead to inconvenient truths surfacing. Again, they’re representative of a group that is not likely to inherit the future. Yeah. So there’s these different facets of the way that The New York Times is trying to cover masculinity.[00:36:13] They’re trying to cover it by defenestrating the one leftist pronatalist and, and practical parental leave policies. They’re trying to... I’m so sorry about Tex. Tex, friend. You, like, you’re not distressed, you just, you just wanna troll me and maybe you’re tired. They’re trying to under- undermine masculinity by having a, a woman write about Father’s Day and a trans man write about Father’s Day.[00:36:41] And they’re, they’re trying to undermine masculinity by having a, yeah, like the person on X pointed out, a childless man decide what good parenting is and, and proclaim it in The New York Times opinion section. It’s, it’s weird. I don’t know if, like, there’s been some concerted effort to talk about masculinity and to be like, “This[00:37:04] Malcolm Collins: is-” I almost wonder if it’s, like, a reaction to the pushback from the first piece.[00:37:08] Like, we’re just gonna go extra hard on this now that we’ve gotten pushback or...[00:37:13] Simone Collins: What, what do you think? No, because I mean, I, I think these things required some research and scheduling and prep to put together. I don’t know if it’s just this, like, immune system, like it, like, it could be, and I, I’ve been thinking about it as some kind of collective immune system response, right?[00:37:27] That the, the white blood cells have recognized the, the virus that is this, this new movement broadly of, of fighting back against urban monoculture masculinity, and the immune system is now attempting to kill the virus by saying, “No, this is what fatherhood is. This is what masculinity is. This is what correct[00:37:49] Malcolm Collins: parenting is.”[00:37:50] Well, masculinity doesn’t involve men. I mean, that seems to be the point of this, right? They- Yeah.[00:37:55] Simone Collins: It doesn’t involve men and it doesn’t involve fathers and it doesn’t involve genuinely trying to Question the broken systems at play that are harmful toward both men and women. It’s very frustrating, but there you go.[00:38:13] It’s wild. I still really enjoyed the sick burns from the kid, ‘cause I love sick burns from the kid.[00:38:17] Malcolm Collins: Legit, just burning the train. Yeah, but like, I mean, we see where this is going. Like, it’s very concerning. It’s very concerning to me that, like, we can’t have an honest conversation around the things that don’t seem to be working as a society, and are just supposed to go along with it.[00:38:38] Just supposed to be like, “Oh, yeah, this, this is all fine. This is all working. We, we can look at the outcomes and see how f*****g terrible they are.” But nope. We’ll just go along with it[00:38:49] Simone Collins: Yeah, I don’t know what to say aside from I can see why people on X were so mad. Now I understand. But also, maybe we’re gonna have to reach a point where maybe, guys, we don’t need to read The New York Times.[00:39:02] I don’t, I don’t know.[00:39:04] Malcolm Collins: I mean, The New York Times readership is basically a contraceptive at this point, right? Like, if you re- I used to love The New York Times. It was one of my favorite newspapers. But, We all,[00:39:12] Simone Collins: well, we did it all, I guess,[00:39:13] Malcolm Collins: but- That future is over, right? Like, that world is over. The world of The New York Times is not the world of the future of humans, right?[00:39:22] We are the future of humanity. We, as hard as they fight back against this, I was telling Simone today that Nux got demonetized across YouTube, across all his channels.[00:39:32] Simone Collins: I’m so mad.[00:39:32] Malcolm Collins: And they said harassment. I watch Nux’s channel. He doesn’t harass anyone as far as I’ve seen. He, he very rarely makes specific call-outs except for Hasan.[00:39:41] I guess if it’s harassment against Hasan, okay. That, the- Touché ... the delicate little flower needed protection from Nux. But Hasan regularly- Oh ... harasses other people, right? Like, so I mean, that’s scary. That’s scary to be on a platform that can just do that when you’re following all of their rules [00:40:00][00:40:00] Simone Collins: I hope he gets monetized again.[00:40:03] This, this reminds me actually of what happened to Leaflet when you included a clip of our kids being, our kids being the, you know, insane reavers they are and you being like, “You b******s,” Yeah, you little b******s is what they said. And, and I think they, I think they referred to that as hate speech.[00:40:20] Malcolm Collins: No, they said I was, like, a- attacking children or something.[00:40:23] Simone Collins: Yeah, wasn’t it bullying? Calling them little b******s. I think it was, I think it was exactly the same moderation reason, though-[00:40:27] Malcolm Collins: Mm ...[00:40:28] Simone Collins: as what Leaflet saw when hers was demonetized. So.[00:40:32] Malcolm Collins: I mean, I don’t, when you say it, but it’s the standard trans approach, you know?[00:40:36] And the fun thing is, is like I’d actually be okay if somebody figured out a way to make transness demographically stable, right? Like, if you’re a trans person and you’re watching this and you’re like, well, like let’s, let’s... Can I make it demographically stable? Fine, like go for it. That’d be great.[00:40:51] Simone Collins: In the Culture Series it is.[00:40:52] So in Ian Banks’ Culture Series I think a lot of humans, because the, the body’s modified so much that if you want to grow a uterus, you, like over a series of months can just grow that organ and then shift your hormone, because you have a, you have a drug gland. Every, every Culture citizen has the option to install a drug gland which can at any point, like release a variety of different mind-altering compounds.[00:41:15] Like, you can just instantly get drunk when you want to get st- a stimulant when you need it. Like, it has, it’s just an, an endogenous drug producing gland. That means you can also endogenously for the most part I think, produce everything you need to in order to transition your gender. And there are characters that are featured in the Culture Series who at points in their lives like decided to become a man for like a couple years, and become a woman for a couple years.[00:41:39] And that’s a version of transness where like y- you genuinely could with this drug gland grow a uterus, have a baby Get rid of the uterus, turn into a man again. It, and I, I wouldn’t, like, it’s, it’s theoretically possible. You could possibly, plausibly have some kind of, like, with really, really advanced technology, you could have this, right?[00:42:09] Malcolm Collins: Theoretically, yes.[00:42:10] Simone Collins: Theoretically. So okay, that, that is my version. My version of an, an ideal future is basically just the, the culture though. I’m, I’m obsessed. What is tech- Yeah, like I[00:42:19] Malcolm Collins: don’t- What is this mood? As society changes, my views on this would change. As technology changes, my views on this would change.[00:42:26] But right now the wider culture around the trans phenomenon is so toxic and so damaging, I just have to take the stance that if only to distance yourself from that wider culture, it’s better not to transition, right? Like, no- no matter how much you feel that you would benefit from it, because the culture will attempt to...[00:42:50] Like, if you transition and then you have an opinion that’s not an approved opinion, or even the average opinion of the community shifts and now your previously approved opinion falls in the unapproved category, you get thrown in the gutter, no matter how much you’ve done for the community. I mean, look at how the community treats Caitlyn Jenner.[00:43:08] Look at how the community treats Buck Angel, the, the two real, like, out in front advocates for it, right? Like, there, there is no respite in the community. Look at how the community treats Ana Valens. Did you know that Ana Valens ended up being canceled by leftists? This, this was this year.[00:43:24] Simone Collins: Oh, gosh.[00:43:24] Malcolm Collins: For, can you guess what? Can you guess why she was canceled?[00:43:29] Simone Collins: Well, I, I’m sure it had something to do with her general oversharing, but I can’t quite tell what.[00:43:32] Malcolm Collins: No, no, no, no. What would be literally the craziest clown worldest reason for her to be canceled?[00:43:38] Simone Collins: Her giantess interest?[00:43:40] Malcolm Collins: No, no, no. Literally the craziest.[00:43:42] Simone Collins: Ah.[00:43:44] Malcolm Collins: Being a Kirsha fan.[00:43:48] Simone Collins: Aw.[00:43:49] Malcolm Collins: She’s not a Kirsha fan, by the way. She tried to destroy Kirsha’s life, but the left doesn’t care about what’s true. She did an article about why Pippa wasn’t so bad [00:44:00] compared to Kirsha, and somehow people got confused and thought she was a Kirsha fan, and Blue Sky just ran with that[00:44:11] Simone Collins: Blue Sky seems like the most toxic but too boring to find amusing place in the entire internet Is there a moment where, like, you wake up[00:44:20] Malcolm Collins: and you’re like, “Wait, did I choose the wrong team? Did, did I choose the everybody stab everybody in the back team?”[00:44:28] Simone Collins: Mm. I don’t know, man. It’s very frustrating.[00:44:34] Malcolm Collins: But look- I like that you brought these to my att- oh, now he’s asleep?[00:44:37] Simone Collins: You see... Yeah. He just, he just, he needs to, like, scream and scream. This is what I say when he, like, has to yell himself to sleep and then[00:44:46] Malcolm Collins: he’s out. And[00:44:46] Simone Collins: you’re like, “Oh.” Right when I need to get up and make dinner.[00:44:50] Malcolm Collins: Right when you need to get up and make dinner. Well, I’m sure you’ll be able to make dinner even more obediently-[00:44:56] because of this, Simone. Which is really what all of us care about here, right?[00:45:01] Simone Collins: Right? I need to know my place, because we are... Oh, God. Let me look at my notes. What did Helen Lewis call them? I love Helen Lewis. This is the problem. I find her very funny and fun. She calls it masculinism. Yes, because we are masculinists, and so my job is in the kitchen making- Well,[00:45:21] Malcolm Collins: as, as a masculinist, I’m gonna get our kid another game console, ‘cause he deserves one- Oh.[00:45:26] for being a sweetie. What?[00:45:29] Simone Collins: He is a sweetie. How can we, how can we deny him? Plus, he is our son. Our sons must have everything.[00:45:36] Malcolm Collins: Yes. Not our daughters. I’m not getting one for our daughters.[00:45:39] Simone Collins: She’s a shark princess. She will take it from you.[00:45:41] Malcolm Collins: She has made that very clear in recent episodes. I had a... One of the ends of a recent episode where she was talking about how she will only eat some color fishes.[00:45:52] Not her favorite color, but, like- Oh, yeah ... gray fishes. And then she makes an eating, a, a show of how she’s gonna eat them. And then she’ll eat divers like me. She explicitly points at me. Like, not regular people. She’s like, “No, you.”[00:46:09] Simone Collins: It’s terrible ‘cause it’s rubbing off on, on her little sister Indy, and now Indy’s just all about being defiant when she used to be my little, my little turkey.[00:46:18] Doing- She’d be my little helper. She would bus her table. She’s still obsessed with cleaning, though. I, I, I need to- ... pretend that that’s subversive.[00:46:26] My spray bottle.[00:46:27] My spray bottle.[00:46:29] My sp- Wait, Indy fights back now?[00:46:32] Why? I wanna cleaning. Because I think she sees all her siblings do it, and she wants to be like her big n- big brothers and sister.[00:46:40] Malcolm Collins: That’s really sweet. I wanna cleaning. You did a good job making these little monsters.[00:46:45] Simone Collins: Yeah, well, she used to clean, and now she just uses her spray bottle to attack people, so.[00:46:51] Malcolm Collins: And I demand praise for the expensive microphone, guys. I got a...[00:46:55] Simone Collins: Yeah. Now you’ve listened to Tex screaming in your ear. How do you feel now?[00:47:01] Do you want me to go back to the old one? Do, do you, do you, did I do the right thing? Are you happy now? Are you hap- are you happy now?[00:47:11] Malcolm Collins: Oh my God, you are so... Look, I’m gonna be, I’m gonna be good about this. I’m even or- ordering it slow so we get the 7% back.[00:47:20] Simone Collins: Thank you, actually. I always do that. I did that for these ‘cause they cost the, as much as our house.[00:47:30] Malcolm Collins: What, what- So we- What cost-[00:47:31] Simone Collins: I, I... Oh, no, I didn’t do it with these. I didn’t do it with the microphones.[00:47:35] Aw. No,[00:47:38] Malcolm Collins: but we needed these quickly.[00:47:39] Simone Collins: Yeah, we did. For you g- for you guys. For you a******s.[00:47:46] Okay.[00:47:47] Malcolm Collins: We gotta get more swords while they’re on sale. Swords, flamethrowers- All[00:47:51] Simone Collins: right, I need to- ... nails, chases ... Frank, I need to end. I’m sorry, Tex. All right. Before he starts screaming, we’re gonna, we’re gonna hit end here. Love you guys. All right, love you. [00:48:00] Bye. I love you, Malcolm.[00:48:01] Malcolm Collins: Love you too.[00:48:02] Simone Collins: You’re my special sub pony[00:48:06] Malcolm Collins: Oh, but I think Texas.[00:48:07] Look at that, he’s getting all the love, not me.[00:48:09] Simone Collins: You’re, you’re, he’s a, he’s shards of your soul, Malcolm. He’s here, and he’s made of you.[00:48:17] Yeah. Okay,[00:48:18] Malcolm Collins: bye. But you guys need to become dads too. So find a wife, work really hard.[00:48:22] Simone Collins: Yeah, become a dad. Don’t, don’t expect to love labor and delivery. And don’t expect to love babies. But if you[00:48:28] Malcolm Collins: do, that’s great. And if you’re a woman watching this, go to the freaking Discord. There’s some guy there who will wife you up.[00:48:34] Simone Collins: There’s some great guys in the Discord who are very[00:48:36] Malcolm Collins: interesting. Or better, among our paid users. That’s, that’s where you know you get the big spenders, right? The real professionals.[00:48:41] Simone Collins: Yes. No, true, true. That’s how you know they are financially secure.[00:48:45] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Oh, yeah, we should I... Yeah, actually, if you wanna, if you’re a woman looking we, we should, like, be able to email all the paid subscribers women who are looking for husbands.[00:48:53] I don’t[00:48:53] Simone Collins: know. Should we do... Locked and Reported does, like, o- once a year, some kind of singles thing.[00:49:01] Malcolm Collins: No, I think because we’re majority male just female only if you’re looking for a husband. Mm-hmm.[00:49:06] Simone Collins: Oh, we should have just, like, some kind of directory of profiles.[00:49:10] Malcolm Collins: No. We, we should just do an email blast for paid subscribers.[00:49:14] Simone Collins: Okay, fine.[00:49:14] Malcolm Collins: You have all their emails. I’m sure most of them would appreciate even just knowing, like, even if they’re not, even if they’re married or whatever, they’d appreciate that we’re trying to get somebody married. And it’s another reason to subscribe.[00:49:27] Simone Collins: Oh, yeah. I’ll find a way. I’ll find a way to do this in a thoughtful way.[00:49:32] We’ll take advice. Okay, bye guys. Bye, bye, bye, bye, bye.[00:49:35] Bye. Bye.[00:49:35] Simone Collins: Tex ate like half a sleeve of Ritz crackers today. That, that’s a slight overstatement I can hear you But only slight He[00:49:41] Malcolm Collins: ate half a sleeve of Ritz[00:49:42] Simone Collins: crackers? He’s obsessed. He’s obsessed. He’s a man. He’s putting on the Ritz. It’s his- Putting[00:49:48] Malcolm Collins: on the Ritz? Yeah.[00:49:49] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:49:50] Malcolm Collins: And look, look, look, I got a Technofuriten knife, the first one.[00:49:56] Was able to get this on Amazon Day for 15 bucks, so it’s a good price for a- Prime[00:50:00] Simone Collins: Day, yeah ...[00:50:01] Malcolm Collins: stabby knife. Stabby. Significantly because it’s a, a bowie knife- It’s more slicey[00:50:05] Simone Collins: than stabby ...[00:50:06] Malcolm Collins: it’s significantly better than the, the ones that the Sikhs have, Oh, that’s wonderful, Tom ... in, in terms of a knife fight.[00:50:13] Great. Well, I mean, their knives were invented a long time before, it’s that they’re just not as sophisticated.[00:50:18] Simone Collins: Yeah, that’s interesting. Yeah, I feel like the LDS church would, if they had knives, update them with time. Maybe the Sikhs just haven’t had enough time, and then they’ll update The, it’s called the cure pen, right?[00:50:28] I’ll update[00:50:29] Malcolm Collins: it with pen. Yeah. Well, I mean, the, the Bowie knife is really the knife of the American frontier.[00:50:32] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:50:32] Malcolm Collins: And so it is a traditional- ... American knife. It’s called the Amer- the, the Excalibur of the Americas, so. The[00:50:39] Simone Collins: Exca- That is amazing. I’ve not heard that.[00:50:41] Malcolm Collins: But I’ve already used it, like, multiple times.[00:50:43] I didn’t know how useful it would be to just have a knife on me at all times.[00:50:46] Simone Collins: My favorite part, though, was when you were trying to tell me the amazing history of the Bowie knife and the guy who invented it. You kept confusing his name. Because we, both you and I are terrible at names, but you kept calling him David Bowie[00:50:57] Malcolm Collins: David[00:50:57] Simone Collins: Bowie. I’m just blinded by that. Because every time I hear the name David Bowie, I, I get that one clip from Zoolander where it’s, “David Bowie,” and Let’s Dance flashes on real fast. It’s it’s great. It’s great. So now every time I see your knife, just so you know- And for dinner tonight- ... that clip from Zoolander plays in my head[00:51:15] Malcolm Collins: Any sort of a curry with french fries would be good, or,[00:51:18] Simone Collins: Okay ... any- Do you want sweet potato again, or you want, you want me to mix it up? You have a fry wardrobe now, basically, so is that what you, I[00:51:25] Malcolm Collins: mean, the sweet potatoes were fantastic. I would love to go for something[00:51:28] Simone Collins: else. A new curry and sweet potato?[00:51:30] Malcolm Collins: Okay. Yeah, the sweet potatoes works. Yeah. I mean, the, the-[00:51:33] Simone Collins: Or, or we have d- again, we have different fries. If you want different fries, we can try a different- Well,[00:51:37] Malcolm Collins: which ones do we have?[00:51:38] Simone Collins: Just- I don’t, I... The freezer’s not in front of me, but i- I think it’s a new one. It’s maybe one you got at Walmart that’s, like, a seasoned fry.[00:51:45] Malcolm Collins: Oh, I wanna try the seasoned fries. Let’s try those.[00:51:48] Simone Collins: Oh, boy. Tex, we got a new mic. You’re trying it out. Say[00:51:52] Malcolm Collins: your piece. Yes. Guys, we finally got those super expensive, like, $300 mics that everyone’s been telling us to get, the Shure Sevenss. [00:52:00] So, Yeah ... they better sound better, because they were very expensive, okay?[00:52:03] They were very[00:52:04] Simone Collins: expensive. But what have you guys done? We even got them on discount, and we were like, “I’m never going to financially recover from this.” So what have you done? What have you done?[00:52:11] Malcolm Collins: What have you done? But you, you guys wanted better audio, and now you’re gonna get-[00:52:15] Simone Collins: Yeah, now you’re gonna hear Tex screaming and drooling into your ear in-[00:52:20] Malcolm Collins: Well, that’s what you-[00:52:21] this audio vision, like, equivalent ... that’s what you get throughout the day, Simone. Come on.[00:52:24] Simone Collins: Oh, yeah. I guess that’s, I’m so sorry to all of you. I might put... I’m gonna, I’m gonna see if he can chill in his Snappi later while we’re out. Do[00:52:31] Malcolm Collins: I sound any different to you on here, Simone? No. But, you know, we don’t- I don’t hear it.[00:52:36] I don’t hear the difference between audio quality. Like, everyone else is like, “Audio this, audio this.” To me, we sound no different from Asma Gold. We sound no different from Nuggs. So that, that’s part of the problem- Oh, boy ... with, like, the audiophile is- He’s so upset ... I can’t hear the difference between Ah.[00:52:52] Simone Collins: He’s not happy Okay, am I gonna get him milk before we start?[00:52:58] Malcolm Collins: We’re g- we’re gonna start. Yes.[00:53:00] Simone Collins: He’s an angry elf. I’m, I’m not, you know, I can’t think when there’s a baby crying, so I will be-[00:53:04] Malcolm Collins: You will get him milk?[00:53:06] Speaker: deep into the jungle, guys?[00:53:11] Is this a jungle or woods?[00:53:21] And that’s called a temperate rainforest, guys This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe