] Malcolm Collins: Hello, Simone. I’m excited to be here with you today. Today, we are going to be talking about a couple books that became bestsellers in the Spanish-speaking world, particularly in Spain, and caused a huge controversy. So-[00:00:13] Simone Collins: Like just now? Like in 2026?[00:00:15] Malcolm Collins: Actually, they were released in 2011 and they have increased almost immediately they became the top seller on Amazon.[00:00:22] And then they they’ve been increasingly trying to ban them for a really long time. They’ve been trydoing these big things where they walk around town and rip them apart.[00:00:30] And you’ll understand why when you hear their name.[00:00:32] Simone Collins: Walk around town and rip them[00:00:34] Malcolm Collins: apart ... the, the name of the first book, which is for women and is popular amongst women, it’s not like unpopular amongst men, is called Marry and Be Submissive.[00:00:42] And women apparently really like this book. And then the second book, which is for men, and surprisingly people haven’t been protesting, is Lay Down Your Life for Her. And the- It’s so good ... they’re, they’re written as a, as a comp- I also love it too, like w- they’re like, oh, what’s asked of women in the women’s book, first of all, though you’re like, “Oh, it’s abusive.”[00:01:03] I, I, I looked into it as much as I could. Nowhere in the book is abuse mentioned anywhere, but they act as if the book is promoting physical abuse simply because it asks women to be s- to submit to their husbands as the Bible says. This is a very Catholic book written by Catholics. And I’m, what I wanna take this episode to do is to, one, go over the key points of the book to- Hmm[00:01:25] sort of, better understand the message it’s trying to convey, why this is resonating with so many women in these countries. Okay. And then go over well, and while we’re doing it, go over where I disagree. And I’d actually say that most of the areas I d- or no, literally all of the areas in which I disagree with the book, it is a mere cultural disagreement about the role of women in a family.[00:01:48] Oh. Which in Catholic culture is simply more submissive than it is in the, the various cultural traditions of the United States. Okay. So, th- that, that’s what we’ll go into.[00:01:59] A side note, by the way, the woman who wrote this is both very pro-natalist, she has a lot of kids, and she appears to be a really sweet person[00:02:08] Speaker: my four children, I’m at lesson number two. So the cat is under the table, so I’m sorry. And I, I, I don’t know the coloring the word has in English, but I, I don’t use it in a negative way. It’s a word taken from the letter of St. Paul to the Ephesians, and it doesn’t mean in any, any way being, uh, li- like a doormat for, for the husband.[00:02:37] I use it in a, the etymological sense of being beneath, , or underneath. , And so providing the support , like , a column supports a roof[00:02:49][00:02:49] Malcolm Collins: But let’s go over some of the lines that they’ve been freaking out about.[00:02:52] Simone Collins: Okay.[00:02:52] Malcolm Collins: Lines like, “Like humiliation because it is for the greater good.”[00:02:58] And then, “To listen to your husband’s words as if God is speaking.” Now- What we’re gonna go into here is actually the first one that everyone’s been freaking out about, which is like humiliation, is an intentional mistranslation that people have been using to freak out about the book. Oh. And they’ve been quoting that line, even in Spanish it could look like the word humiliation, but the actual word is, and you’re familiar with the word probably, Simone, mortification is the word that’s used here.[00:03:25] Oh,[00:03:26] Simone Collins: come on.[00:03:28] Malcolm Collins: And so it goes, “We like mortification because it for, it is for achieving a greater good, and that greater good is to welcome your husband, and therefore to give birth to yourself again, regenerate yourself.” That is not a particularly offensive line that- How are[00:03:44] Simone Collins: they mistranslating that?[00:03:45] Isn’t it mortificación? Like, how do you like... They’re semi-cognates. You can’t... Wait, is that... How can this be? Are they just being that crazy in, in trying to freak us- Sorry, for[00:03:58] Malcolm Collins: people who don’t know, Simone speaks fluent Spanish. [00:04:00] That’s why she’s freaking out about this I’m[00:04:01] Simone Collins: just checking, but I, I don’t know.[00:04:02] I don’t use that. I use other language when I speak. So mortification, Spanish. Yeah, mortificación. Okay, so there’s no way you can misinterpret that. Like...[00:04:15] Malcolm Collins: So even you, if, if you heard that as a, as a Spanish speaker- Welcome.[00:04:17] Simone Collins: If you saw the word mortificación, what do you think it means? I mean...[00:04:24] Malcolm Collins: Not humilia- I mean, I, I, I would think of DSM stuff is- Yeah, you[00:04:27] Simone Collins: would think it means mortification because it’s a semi-cognate.[00:04:30] Malcolm Collins: It’s, oh, because it’s a semi-cognate to the word in English mortification. Yeah. Well, most people don’t know the word mortification in English I mean, I always think of it as sort of a Catholic thing. But in English language- That’s a mortified word. People use it all the time. That’s, this is a normal word[00:04:41] So in, in Catholic spiritual language or, or Spanish more broadly mortification is a traditional term. It does not mean enjoying physical or sexual humiliation, abuse, or degradation. No. It refers to the deliberate practice of denying one’s own will- Yes ... pride, ego or immediate comfort for higher spiritual purpose following Christ, growing in virtue, and loving others more selflessly.[00:05:03] Classic examples include accepting small daily inconveniences, biting one’s tongue, and accepting correction without defensiveness, or putting someone else’s preferences first. Which is kind of a great advice for a woman getting into a marriage, right?[00:05:18] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:05:18] Malcolm Collins: Like, but what I find, what I find so f- fascinating about this backlash and this absolute panic, some of which has come from the Catholic Church as well.[00:05:27] We’ll have a few bishops here, quotes from them- Okay ... about how this doesn’t reflect the church’s teachings to women at all. And like- Mm-hmm ... no, it, it kind of does, first of all. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But I mean, at least the traditional church’s teachings. Maybe not whatever you’re teaching. Like, whatever the church is doing today.[00:05:43] But you know, traditionally. The book really doesn’t, if you go into it, it’s... This is not like 50 Shade of Grey, which did not get these protests or anything like that. It’s, it’s literally just telling both husbands and wives that you need to dedicate your life to your partner and to being a good partner to your partner.[00:06:03] Actually, only to wives. To wives it says be submission. To men it says lay down your entire life for your wife, right? Both of which I think are, are fairly good pieces of advice. But the, what’s fascinating is that leftists, and even some people on the right have been speaking against this, ‘cause this has gone o- over the party line in, despite being a bestseller.[00:06:21] Really? Are, are saying that this book represents violence and abuse to women. What is interesting is what they are showing there is the idea of a woman being or, or submitting to her husband is the idea that they found violence in, in the[00:06:40] Simone Collins: book. Yeah, well, that, that a woman would sublimate herself, I think more broadly, that a woman would sublimate herself to anyone except her own personal hedonic desires.[00:06:52] So I mean also a woman, a woman subjugating herself, or sorry sublimating herself to God, for example. That would also be bad. Sublimating yourself to children, sublimating yourself to God. S- Anything aside from, like, your own status, identity, and comfort is- Actually- ... considered bad ...[00:07:13] Malcolm Collins: it’s, it’s funny that you mention that, because I think you just hit on something that’s very spiritually true about the urban monoculture.[00:07:21] But I had never isolated it so, loud. Hmm. Which is to say, you know, if you’re a Christian, right, you submit to God, right? Like, if you’re a, you know, Muslim, you submit to Allah. If you’re a, right, w- whatever thing you are, it’s, it generally involves some degree of submission-[00:07:39] Simone Collins: Yeah ...[00:07:40] Malcolm Collins: to that thing.[00:07:41] Simone Collins: Well, it[00:07:41] Malcolm Collins: should[00:07:41] Simone Collins: if you’re doing[00:07:42] Malcolm Collins: it right It should.[00:07:43] Simone Collins: Yes.[00:07:43] Malcolm Collins: The, the urban monoculture literally treats personal desires, because that’s what you’re submissive to-[00:07:51] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm ...[00:07:52] Malcolm Collins: as their god. Hmm ... it, it is, it is literally a religious and theological [00:08:00] framework downstream of the most pure form of hedonism possible. I had never really thought about hedonism historically, ‘cause I thought of it as just like, well, d- do the thing.[00:08:15] It’s just like you do the things that make you feel good. But it is actually a form of worship of Pleasure[00:08:26] Simone Collins: Yeah, I think that’s accurate. Yeah[00:08:29] Malcolm Collins: And pleasure here being you know, what, what, what is that at the end of the day? It’s sort of like e- from their own perspective the things that led to your ancestors having more surviving offspring than other, th- th- than their peers, right?[00:08:44] Like, a very, a very it, it’s interesting to me as well as, as how hollow pleasure is within an entirely secular perspective, and yet to still pedestalize it to that extent. Hmm. I, like that was the realization that basically put me down the whole path to like my modern philosophical framing, and I’ve always really struggled with how so many people just are like, “Well, feeling good is obviously an intrinsically good thing.”[00:09:12] Right? Like, I’ve always been very surprised by that, but let’s give a very interesting point here, Simone. So, the book is written very interestingly. It’s like a series of like anecdotes about her life and very, very Catholically. We’ll, we’ll get to that in a second. Like it’s, it’s not a, a structured book.[00:09:27] It’s not like even a list of advice.[00:09:29] Simone Collins: Actually, that sounds like a very, very common self-help format. You would just never know because I don’t think you’ve ever read a single self-help book in your life .[00:09:36] Malcolm Collins: Oh, yeah. No, it’s, it is. Yeah. And quotes from the Bible. Specifically Ephesians 5 dynamic is what it’s all about where husbands are called to love their wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.[00:09:48] So literally asking for self-sacrifice on behalf of the husband which I find so interesting that just like nobody’s like, “It’s asking men to go too far.” So let’s go over all the, the points in it and talk about where we agree, where we disagree. And I, well, first of all, on the, the, the male framing here I, I would like, and we’ll get to the, the points they make in the book for men as well.[00:10:09] I will note that, yes, this is a biblical framework for how to treat your, your life and your relationship as a male. Hmm. But I think it’s also important to remember that there are things biblical or non-biblically framed that are more important than your partner which is, it- from my perspective, your shared goals.[00:10:30] And I think that there is a, And your children. Your children are more important than your partner, and your shared goals are more- 100% ... important than your partner.[00:10:38] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:10:38] Malcolm Collins: And I think that it is possible to accidentally overly end up focusing on these questions, these framings as they relate to your partner.[00:10:50] Like, if you as a male live your entire life just dedicated to your wife, right, rather than you and your wife’s shared goals, I think you’ve lived a pretty selfish life, if I’m gonna be honest. But what’s interesting is I don’t think that you can truly dedicate your entire life to your wife and still have that life have been a positive one from the perspective of even dedicating to her.[00:11:15] Because what, what what does it mean to dedicate your life to her? To dedicate your life to her pleasure? Like, obviously, that’s not what’s being talked about here, right? It’s, it’s, it’s her goals for herself within the wider sort of moral framing that you both have as a married couple.[00:11:30] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.[00:11:31] Malcolm Collins: Which would presumably, because you’re not in the urban monoculture, are not just her pleasure and her desires.[00:11:36] Simone Collins: Presumably , yeah.[00:11:39] Malcolm Collins: So the first core point that the book makes is men and women have equal dignity, but are profoundly different. Complimentary, not sameness. Show you that treating the sexes as interchangeable creates frustration and unhappiness. Women are naturally oriented towards reception, relationship, and support, and men towards initiative, guidance, and outward [00:12:00] action.[00:12:00] Simone Collins: Yeah- It’s just so funny to me that people make this point now. Like, e- even just 100 years ago, or, or like i- ... 100 years ago and beyond, if, if someone, if we had to tell someone, “Look, this is, this is an important point to make to people in our time,” they’re gonna be like, “Are you guys...[00:12:16] What happened?”[00:12:17] Malcolm Collins: No, they, like, they would think that you had to make the point, that you would even mention this-[00:12:22] Simone Collins: Yeah, like- ...[00:12:23] Malcolm Collins: that you might be mentally ill.[00:12:24] Simone Collins: Yeah, is the future of humanity just... They would, th- we, we are Idiocracy. This is Idiocracy.[00:12:31] Malcolm Collins: And we pointed out in another episode, if you look at preferences for different t- sorts of chores and tasks around the house and everything like that women typically prefer the preferences that mo- like, they prefer cleaning, they prefer cooking, they prefer a few other things.[00:12:45] Simone Collins: Yeah, we did a whole episode on that. It was, it was really interesting, the research that was done. Yeah,[00:12:49] Malcolm Collins: yeah. The things that we think of as stereotypically female are stereotypically female because on average, women prefer those things. I, I will note in, in relation to all of this, is that not all women, obviously.[00:13:02] There, there are outliers. We often push the idea of we call a, a sword and shield marriage which is one partner does the boring, more stable thing or work, and the other partner does the more likely to raise the entire status of the family work. I mean, I often use going a-viking as a way to do this, where the, the viking wife stays home and, and tends the farm, and then the husband goes, and goes raiding and does the, the risky thing.[00:13:28] Or this could be, you know, a building an online career th- as a, as an influencer. This could be you know, a, a societal b- Engagement, this could be b- entrepreneurial-type work. Now, obviously Simone and I are pretty bad at, at sword and shield. We’re just like sword and sword. Yeah. Which creates challenges for us, right?[00:13:48] Because it means we don’t have the fallback position that a lot of families have. However, if we ever fell into that position and we truly needed us, you know, you would take on the shield role. It’s very obvious within our relationship. And I was talking to a fan about this once and they, they seemed, like, embarrassed.[00:14:04] They’re like, “Well, in our relationship, I, the woman, would be more likely to take on the, the sword position and my husband would be more likely to take on the shield position.” And this is where I’d be like, “No, that’s, like, totally okay.” It’s-[00:14:17] Simone Collins: Oh, especially in our society where women have a leg up in job markets often or w- even in certain sectors of investing and everything.[00:14:24] Like, it makes sense.[00:14:26] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it often makes sense. In fact, that’s what Simone and I did historically is I sort of wore her face and did all the work. Mm-hmm. I’ve noticed this about a lot of female entrepreneurs it’s often their- Yeah,[00:14:34] Simone Collins: well you present the asset that has the most, the greatest odds of success, but as a married couple you get to interchange what’s behind the mask.[00:14:42] It’s amazing.[00:14:43] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well th- this is also an interesting point here, which we’ll get to in regards to submission. Actually let’s get to the submission part and we can, we can talk about this. Submission means freely choosing to be the foundation that holds the family up, not inferiority, passivity or being a doormat.[00:14:59] The Italian or Spanish word she uses literally means placed under. She redefines it as strong, elastic, patient role of supporting everyone else. It is a voluntary gift of self, not forced obedience. So again here the way that my wife and I relate to each other, I am the end voice in everything, right?[00:15:23] Like, I- my decision is the final call at everything. So in that respect, she is submissive to me in the relationship, right? Mm-hmm. That said I would have two points here. One is while I would say usually or maybe almost always the man should have that role, I do not think always the man should have that role.[00:15:49] I think that there are some relationships I have seen where it is obvious to both of them that the woman is smarter and has more emotional control. Now, the, [00:16:00] basically the person who is smarter and has more emotional control should always be the backdrop in terms of decision. And I’m sure[00:16:05] Simone Collins: pretty much anyone listening to this podcast can think of a couple in which that’s what’s going on.[00:16:10] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And that’s what’s, what’s going on. And, and you know what’s really funny about these couples as well? Most of the ones that I know, the woman actually still takes on a submissive role. Mm-hmm. She just has the last say in everything. Mm-hmm. So I’m gonna d- divide this into two things here.[00:16:24] Who has the final call? And submission was in the relationship, right? Like, the, the submissive role was in the relationship. Here’s where I’m gonna say I actually do believe that women should always take on the submissive role in the relationship. And I will explain why, because it goes again, you know, a lot of the time I try to be very well, you know, not everyone is necessarily made that way, not everyone is blah, blah, blah.[00:16:49] Even women who naturally, let’s say, are dominant women be that they prefer to be in a dominant position vis-a-vis their partner, or they are aroused by being in a dominant position vis-a-vis their partner. I think if they do that in the relationship itself, they will begin to respect the partner less over time.[00:17:12] Mm-hmm. And eventually no longer be interested in the partner. I, I actually think Rick and Morty does a good job with this in the way it, it, it treats Jerry’s relationship with, with his wife. In the... You know, she sees him as, like, a sniveling worm aft- after a long period of time.[00:17:28] Speaker 2: Here we have Gar and Zarbadar glooch. Or should I say, here we have the way Gar and Zarbadar perceive each other. That’s what makes us better than them. We can find solutions. We can adapt. We can communicate And most importantly, we can work together[00:17:54] Malcolm Collins: And people can say, “Why, why don’t men do this with their women?[00:17:58] Why do, if a woman is submissive to a man in a relationship for a long period of time why don’t they begin to see her as lesser?” And I think it’s just the way the social roles are structured and the way that we are socialized to see them. And, and somebody can be like, “Well, then create a new s- social whatever way of seeing, way of contextualizing.”[00:18:19] And I’d respond like, “I mean, you can try, but, like, you didn’t grow up in it. It’s gonna be very, very difficult for you,” right? Like, it’s, it’s really putting a lot of risk on an experiment that doesn’t have any, Okay, so a- another note I’d be here is, is some people will be like, “Well, not all women like to be submissive.”[00:18:42] And I will be honest here as like, just thinking through as somebody who slept around a ton, who’s dated a ton of people in my entire life, it... And I’m, I’m saying in my entire li- so, like, literally you know, 150 people in terms of, like, relationship experience, and then if you add you know, other people I’ve just met as friends, talked to, gotten to know deeply, you know, we’re probably talking about a pool of, like, 300 people I’ve gotten to know enough to know this.[00:19:12] I’ve never met a single woman who didn’t, to some degree, like being in the submissive role. Have, have you, Simone? Like, I’m, I’m, I’m actually thinking here.[00:19:26] Simone Collins: Yes but they’re non-binary so[00:19:33] Yeah, yeah[00:19:35] Malcolm Collins: Yeah[00:19:36] Simone Collins: Just one person[00:19:36] Malcolm Collins: So one person, right? So the, the, the point here being more broadly is it’s just like the people being like, “Well, not all women are like...” This is one thing where I’d be like almost all women are comfortable with a submissive role in a relationship. And again, why, but what does that mean?[00:19:55] Submission to her likely within this, this Catholic framework, within the, [00:20:00] the, is likely significantly more, and we’ll get to this, it is more of a true form of submission, right? Like, at the end of the day, not just is the, her husband the backstop for all ideas, but she is submissive to him in all things.[00:20:13] Hmm. In our relationship, and often in the culture of, ‘cause we’ve had episodes where we studied American relationships going back to America’s founding of different cultural groups submission, the, the role, the submissive role that women take looks very, very different and is much closer to the supporting position in a partnership.[00:20:36] Which I think goes against what a lot of people would intuit. Well, and a lot of guys, right? Like, if you’re an American guy and you’re going out there and you’re looking for a girl of the, the American cultural set, that’s probably gonna be what she wants and expects, and I think that that’s totally fine.[00:20:51] Like, those relationships like our relationship for example, works spectacularly well. But I never think about Simone submitting to me because she, without any sort of framing from me in that direction, is just always proactively working to help m- me, my, our family, and our goals, that it never feels like the word submission i- i- is really a good fit for what you’re doing there.[00:21:24] Simone Collins: Do you- Well, I think what some other people who listen to the podcast had said is that, like, a, a, a genuinely dominant, in this context husband, yeah, but this person said husband too, would, would never, like, demand or ask for submission. Like, if anyone does that, they’re not dominant. It is just a natural order that folds out, you know, like a crystalline structure.[00:21:47] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. That- Just falling into place ... that’s actually a good, a p- a good point. Yeah. And as a husband, in terms of how you relate to this, it is above all else out of appreciation and gratitude for her dedicated and continuous work on behalf of the family that motivates my selfless devotion to her and our family’s goals.[00:22:12] It, like, moves that forwards. She talks about this as a virtuous cycle, but for those who have not experienced it, it, it is genuinely a very natural and easy virtuous cycle to fall into. One person... And, and it’s also a truly evil thing to break this cycle, right? For me, for example, to begin exploiting her constant dedication to myself, to the family, to, you know,[00:22:38] Simone Collins: But also for, and this actually I think happens a lot more Then that exploitation, or maybe that exploitation happens sometimes, it’s talked about a lot on social media, so s- you don’t need to worry about whistleblowers not being out there.[00:22:50] But what happens often is one woman in a friend group will just get this in her head that she i- resents this, and then try to get all of her female friends to sort of become, like incept them with this idea as well. And it just starts to ruin the entire, like everyone’s, everyone’s relationships, unless someone else puts it to a stop.[00:23:11] Because often, like women soft disagree to begin with, Yeah ... but don’t want to express it because they’re agreeable and they wanna be nice. And then in the end it just can make everyone resent their, their marriages and ruin their marriages, which is probably why one of the many reasons[00:23:25] Malcolm Collins: why divorce is- Well, I, I actually think a good rule of thumb around this is- Yeah[00:23:28] don’t be friends with people who don’t like their partners.[00:23:31] Simone Collins: Yeah, who are in unhappy marriages. I, I- Gotta dump your friends ...[00:23:34] Malcolm Collins: no, it’s just, it’s not a, it’s not a, there’s, there’s very little benefit to you that’s going to come from being friends with ... If, if somebody chose a partner and they don’t like the person they chose, that to me says an awful lot about the person who chose that partner and that particular mindset.[00:23:51] I mean, maybe they’ve emotionally grown since then, maybe they psychologically grown since then and, Mm-hmm ... and they are incompatible now because they weren’t really thinking when they, [00:24:00] when they chose the individual and stuff like that. But at that point it’s then leave, right? Like the act of being in a negative relationship and then you know, incepting other people with that, which, which does happen.[00:24:11] People who don’t like their partners are very confused by people who do like their partners. Mm-hmm. And they often believe, as we’ve seen with our relationship in terms of talking to reporters, in terms of talking with leftists, that the people who like their relationships are lying about it, or their[00:24:29] Simone Collins: partner.[00:24:29] Yeah, yeah. And, or that they’re delusional and they need to be, like they’re actually in horrible relationships and they just need to be told that, because as soon as they realize it then they’ll leave their terrible relationship and be like them.[00:24:42] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and be like them. But yeah. No, I mean, I, I I, I think that that’s a, that’s a great point.[00:24:47] And, and this woman does seem to be in a very genuinely good relationship from everything I can tell. She, next point she makes is women have a tendency to control everything. Submitting counters that tendency and frees the husband to lead and give himself. Mariano says women’s main marital defect is wanting to decide, organize, and improve everything, including the husband.[00:25:06] When a husband steps back and trusts, the husband is more likely to abandon his own defect, selfishness or withdrawer, and becomes more present and sacrificial she talked about this early in her relationship. I, I w- if I was talking to a, you know, I grew up partially in Italy, so, like, that’s my best mirror of, like, Spanish culture is, is Italian culture.[00:25:31] And the or, you know, I’ve, I’ve known a lot of Greek American families. The women in these families, I would give this advice to them. The women have a tendency to want to control everything and submitting can help you break out of that tendency. But I, I would say that this is not true for most women of American stock that I’ve met.[00:25:51] They do not seem to have this tendency as, as described. Well, and[00:25:53] Simone Collins: maybe though it’s even worse for your average, like, urban monoculture woman in the United States because rather than being like, “I’m going to mold him into the person I want him to be,” it’s, “I expect a man who’s perfect out of the box,” a, you know, nine out of 10, 10 out of 10.[00:26:10] Which is, I don’t know. Yes. Yes. I don’t w- I would prefer a woman who’s like, “I’ll take a fixer-upper. I’m gonna, like, annoyingly try to control you,” over a woman who won’t even consider, you know, someone who’s imperfect.[00:26:25] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I- Also,[00:26:27] Simone Collins: I, I do soft disagree with her on the whole, like, don’t try to melt, mold a man, because we just did this episode on asking a- Do[00:26:33] Malcolm Collins: try to mold a man.[00:26:34] Yeah.[00:26:34] Simone Collins: I, I- Yeah. Like, actually you should, and there’s just three types. There’s the s**t-testing type, which is bad. There’s the trying to turn a husband into something you want him to be, but he doesn’t want to be, that’s not in alignment with your values or his values, and that’s bad. But then there’s a third one, which is just helping him become the person he wants to be, and then you do ha- kinda have to be a, a hard-ass with him.[00:26:54] You have to annoy him sometimes. Because look, a- any good coach of, say, an Olympic gymnast, that gymnast wants to win the Olympics.[00:27:02] Malcolm Collins: No, no, I, I agree. Is that coach gonna push them- I mean, so Simone, when you’re thinking of, like, think of the women for, like, My Big Fat Greek Wedding or something like that.[00:27:09] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:27:09] Malcolm Collins: Like, this would have been good advice for them.[00:27:12] Simone Collins: Yes.[00:27:12] Malcolm Collins: For, for, like, that s- but it’s not good advice, I think, for most of our followers or women like you. The, that you, most of these women are women with a level of emotional control and regulation that when they are nitpicking things the things that they are nitpicking are actually generally for the combined best interest of the family.[00:27:37] Mm-hmm. And if the husband doesn’t want you nitpicking something, I mean, I think that’s on him to say, “This is not something that we’re going to talk about or you’re gonna criticize.”[00:27:46] Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, and there are also just some pretty real things ... and here’s why. Like, I think, Some, some conclusions people need to reach on their own, and if you try to, to push it on them, they will, you are just going to push them away from you.[00:27:59] So you [00:28:00] also have to be aware of those third rail things.[00:28:03] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. She argues that feminism fundamentally became subverted and went on the wrong path. And she argues that a true female freedom and happiness come from embracing feminine nature, welcome service and motherhood, rather than competing on male terms.[00:28:17] I think everyone is, e- everyone has figured this out by now. Like- Yeah ... all the feminist women have figured this out by now, right?[00:28:23] Simone Collins: Like- Dude, even men don’t wanna compete on male terms. If men could compete on female terms, they t- totally would.[00:28:29] Malcolm Collins: Everyone, yeah, fe- w- when you... What? Yeah. Like, why, w- whoa. It’s crazy that any woman was psyops’d into believing that women wanted this.[00:28:38] Yeah. And then they got it and they have been less happy, and I’m, I’m not talking here about my subjective... as feminism gained more power, women’s happiness went down, ob- objectively. The, the, it’s, the, there was a big study on this called the the Paradox of Feminism or something like this, and if you go from the 1970s women used to be happier than men on average.[00:28:59] And just as, as women got more and more rights their happiness- Hmm ... went down and down and down and down. And male happiness ironically went up relative to women, and now women, men are significantly happier than women on average. And- Interesting ... like, it’s something, like, women wanted this, this form of, this sort of whatever they wanna call it, equality or whatever, in theory, but not in practicality.[00:29:24] Simone Collins: Yeah. None, none of the drawbacks. It actually really sucks to be a dude, so.[00:29:28] Malcolm Collins: The, yeah, women want equality in a relationship, but they also know they wanna be the submissive partner in a relationship. Like, it’s one of the things that’s like they, they want the idea of equality without actually thinking through the implementa- implications.[00:29:45] Yeah,[00:29:45] Simone Collins: because what it means to not be the submissive one, what it means to be the dominant one, is that all the responsibility falls with you in the end. And also, a lot of the work falls with you, and the, the scary work. So most people would avoid that. I think it was really personified well in, in what we experienced when we tried to give people promotions in Peru, and they were like, “No.[00:30:08] No, I don’t want that. Don’t give me more responsibility, ‘cause then if something goes wrong, it’s gonna be my fault, and I’m gonna have more work, and I don’t want that. Don’t even, don’t even think about it. I don’t care about more money. You can just keep your money.”[00:30:23] Malcolm Collins: Which happened with our real- Which, which happened, yeah[00:30:26] we really struggled to promote people. And th- this is a, a different, well, it’s a different cultural framing to it, but I think it’s a correct cultural framing of what responsibility means. Like, what it means-[00:30:34] Simone Collins: It’s based, yeah. Because I, yeah, I think in the United States, people to a certain extent are gaslit about the, the glamour of dominance.[00:30:45] They’re led to believe that it is, you know, just all fantastic and perfect, when actually it means you have a ton of responsibilities, the buck stops with you, and y- all of your decisions are going to be capable of causing a lot more damage and pain and blowback. When, when you are at the bottom you, you have kind of have a lot more freedom and a lot less stress.[00:31:09] The one situation where you don’t wanna be, and I think this is maybe what people index on really heavily in the United States, is that it really sucks if you are under someone else and they are not a very good manager or, like, dominant person. That’s the big problem.[00:31:28] Malcolm Collins: Yes. Well, and I think that this, this is, this is why it’s useful for men.[00:31:33] When, when a male tries to take on the role of the truly equal partner, to an extent I think women at, I would say the average woman and even the vast majority of women, find that disgusting to an extent. Mm-hmm. It, it, it’s almost as if they are belittling themselves by being with a partner who is their equal in, in[00:31:58] Simone Collins: the way that they communicate.[00:31:59] Well, and to a certain extent they’re gonna accuse [00:32:00] you still of all of the bad man things that women confuse men, or a- accuse men of. For example, you’re putting off, off, offloading a huge amount of mental load to me, ‘cause now I have to decide where we’re gonna eat dinner. I have to decide all these things.[00:32:15] And that is-[00:32:16] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, didn’t they make some, some big new thing about, what, what was the new stellar, like- Mental[00:32:20] Simone Collins: load. That’s what I just said ...[00:32:21] Malcolm Collins: mental load, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That men are giving me mental load.[00:32:24] Simone Collins: Yeah. That- That I have to think to remind him to do a thing, that I have to ask, that I have to carry the emotional burden of this thing.[00:32:34] And I, yeah, I think- Contrast that with the, the, this old lost social graces of men opening doors for women and men ordering for women at restaurants. Like, the, the whole idea is that they are trying to do a, a, perform courtesy for a, a female partner or friend or family member by taking the burden of opening a door or of speaking with a waiter away from a woman so that she could relax and just chill.[00:33:05] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, I mean, a lot of manners were about that, right? Yeah. Like, taking the load off of a w- a woman specifically so that she could further dedicate herself to her role. Mm. But I, I, I think that this is the thing that was forgotten is, is, is women try to keep all of that stuff, right, all the, all the benefits, and then push back on...[00:33:25] But let- let’s keep going here to, to more pieces of advice in the book. Right. By the way, this book feels very tame to you, right? Like, generically good advice that most sane people who’d been married would agree with. Mm-hmm. And yet they are completely apoplectic about it. Ripping it apart, saying, “This isn’t what the Bible supports,” saying, you know, like, like a bishop was saying that.[00:33:45] Like, this is not a Christian value set. Like, this is-[00:33:47] Simone Collins: Really?[00:33:48] Malcolm Collins: Oh ... antithetical to what the, the Vatican teaches.[00:33:51] Simone Collins: Yeah, like- What do his Christian values say?[00:33:53] Malcolm Collins: Now I know, right? But what’s fun is that this is being published by the archdiocese, and the archbishop has been very supportive of it, so. Oh.[00:34:00] Simone Collins: Okay.[00:34:01] Malcolm Collins: Oh. There’s a faction of the church that’s based and likes this. And obviously, the, the core buyers of this are Catholic wives. The practical path to a happy marriage, if she, she breaks it down dive into marriage rather than waiting for the perfect moment or perfect partner which I, I think is very good advice.[00:34:17] Simone Collins: Super important message, especially for Catholics who end up marrying a lot later and appear to be, through their actions, just more choosy, despite being in communities that should be pretty good for matchmaking.[00:34:26] Malcolm Collins: I did not feel, for people who think that our relationship is particularly good, if you go back to my early relationship with Simone, I did not feel she was the perfect partner.[00:34:33] Simone Collins: Yeah, and he was actually kind of explicit about that. He was really not sure if this marriage was gonna work out. I was gonna be his first wife.[00:34:39] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I thou- I thought she was the good enough partner with you know, the, the core things recommending her, that she was hardworking, she worked to improve herself, and she was and, like, adored me, like, thought very highly of me, and that was what I wanted to see, right?[00:34:54] You know. And I think that now you’re the perfect partner. I think most people that know our relationship now are like, “Oh, well, Malcolm, you don’t understand. I’m not just gonna find a Simone out there,” right? And the Simone I found was, progressive environmentalist hipster who worked, managed the company’s Facebook account, right?[00:35:15] Like-[00:35:16] Simone Collins: Malcolm, I did more than that.[00:35:18] Malcolm Collins: You did more than that over time. That’s basically what you did at the beginning. I’m just pointing out, and, and she wasn’t particularly good-looking compared to what she looks like today. Don’t know why. Don’t, I don’t know how she got more attractive as she got older.[00:35:31] It, it’s mostly confidence, I think, and not, and not knowing how to style yourself. Oh my God. But no, it’s important to note this because people- Yes ... will be like, “Well, I model, I model off of Malcolm and Simone, so I look for somebody who’s as good as Simone.” Yeah, you[00:35:43] Simone Collins: don’t wanna look at- And I’m like, “Simone wasn’t-”[00:35:44] the after picture only and then just assume that you get that without putting in the work. Yeah. Yeah, Simone wasn’t as good as Simone. You marry a before. Yeah.[00:35:52] Malcolm Collins: But I-[00:35:52] Simone Collins: But also, Malcolm, you, I, you say, “I got more attractive.” You got more attractive than I got more attractive.[00:35:59] Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, that’s [00:36:00] normal in a relationship, but yeah, I definitely got more attractive as I got older.[00:36:02] Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah.[00:36:03] Malcolm Collins: Prioritize the husband and the marital bond even amid children and work. Do I agree with this one? I, I regret[00:36:09] Simone Collins: that she has to say that.[00:36:11] Malcolm Collins: I mean, I g- yes, do continue to prioritize the husband, but I think the family unit with the children as the most important part of a family unit come above the husband or wife.[00:36:22] Simone Collins: Oh.[00:36:23] Malcolm Collins: I, I, I will say that it’s possible to over-prioritize children to the extent that you forget about your partner- Hmm ... and your partner stops being as important to you. And I think that that’s, obviously I’ve seen that, that can do a lot of damage in a relationship. But I think I, I, I sort of put them as co-equals.[00:36:41] Spouse and all of the kids i- as, as the other part of the co-equal. Now over or relative to jobs, yeah, yeah, I mean, income’s important, but yeah. I, I, the, the, your family is, it can depend. I think your family’s mission is the most important thing, and because we completely combine family and job, it’s harder for us to, you know, make this distinction here.[00:37:05] Be open to life. Children are a gift, not an obstacle. Good piece of advice. Practice humility, humor, prayer, and daily small acts of service. The wife’s submission helps create the conditions of the husband to, quote-unquote, “die for her,” the, which the companion book talks about. Which again is asking a lot from the hu- like, this is not a, oh, women crawl on the knees for your husband type book, right?[00:37:30] Like, I, I think that this is a very, it’s about both people dedicating themselves to their partners to an extent that is deeply offensive within modern culture, within the urban monoculture.[00:37:44] And the, the i- i- and also note here that she’s very explicit about returning to like, a Christian anthropology of, of what a wife should be instead of our vision of the 1950s wife. You know, like, y- staying home a- against their will or whatever. Like, the stay-at-home vision of a wife in the 1950s, and I think she’s good to do this, is i- i- like, was never a real thing, as we’ve pointed out.[00:38:12] It is not a vision that should be chased. Whereas I think the vision that she presents of female mortification, as she would put it, is, is something that can be chased. So, I’ll go into now what she says in the male book. She says, “True masculinity means being willing to die for your wife and your family.”[00:38:30] The claim is taken straight from St- Saint Paul. “Virility is not dominance, success, or emotional toughness for its own sake. It is the readiness to take blows, to protect, provide, “And spends oneself for the good of the wife and children. Most of the time is, quote-unquote, ‘dying,’ and it happens in small, unglamorous ways rather than dramatic acts of heroism.”[00:38:52] Which is, I think, a great way to frame being a husband for men. When we think about what it means to live, you know, chivalrous, vulturous lives, a lot of people want to be the knight or the warrior, you know, going out dying trying to stop the terrorist or whatever in some big glamorous cycle.[00:39:09] But I, I think that the individual momentary sacrifices as, as, as we put it, like, you should live your life in a state of perpetual martyrdom. Every moment and every day you are a, a fleeting thing, right? Like, the me tomorrow isn’t the me today. It’s, it’s a, it’s a different entity. That the me today has a duty to martyr himself for not just my family and for civilization, for my children, but for me in the future.[00:39:39] And to frame life that way I think is something that psychologically is sort of deeply understandable for men.[00:39:45] Simone Collins: Mm.[00:39:47] Malcolm Collins: “There is a modern crisis of male identity. Many males today are disoriented, passive, withdrawn, or stuck in a prolonged adolescence. They avoid responsibility, decision-making, and self-giving.[00:39:58] They retreat into [00:40:00] work, screens, hobbies, or silence. This is a vacuum that harms the whole family.” I think this is a, a deeply correct attack on modern men. And I actually think here when she talks about, like, what does it mean for a wife to be submissive, and I think that this is a good understanding of a wife being submissive, is it’s to be with somebody who is not disoriented, passive, or withdrawn, right?[00:40:24] It’s to be with somebody who is active.[00:40:33] Simone Collins: I’m so sorry. Can you hear me okay?[00:40:35] Malcolm Collins: Yes. And then she goes further to argue that the woman’s attitude strongly influences whether or not the man steps up. And a note to the previous attack right there, where people can be like, “Hey, men are only acting like this because of women not taking on the traditionally woman role in society.”[00:40:52] And that, that is true, right? Like, and it is, it is also true within a marriage. For the, for the male to not be passive or withdrawn and to make decisions with authority, and to not withdraw into adolescence or hobbies or whatever d- as, as major points of their lives the woman is a partner in that.[00:41:14] But what I’d say to men who are all like, “Well then how do I do it? How do I make a woman...” Women secretly want this, okay? That they, they secretly want a guy who is on some big impressive journey that they can go on together, right? Like, that is what women want. And if, even if they’ve been brainwashed by the urban monoculture it is difficult to break them out of it.[00:41:39] It takes time to break them out of it. But the... I- I’d say, like, broadly among the wider, like, right these days, es- especially the new right, a lot of the most virulent good warriors are women who had a man break them out of this cycle, and just then go full-on, like, a, a culture war, basically.[00:42:05] Mm-hmm. And I think one of the things that causes women to do this is when other women to keep trying to tell them, “Your husband is, doesn’t care about you, is bad, is abusing you. You need to leave. You shouldn’t be happy with this. You shouldn’t be happy with your kids. This is all some weird fetish thing.”[00:42:22] And, and, and I think that that radicalizes women further- Mm-hmm ... because they see how manipulative the world is being in a way that would be harmful to them if they followed it.[00:42:32] Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. And in a way that just jarringly makes them more confident in their position that they hold.[00:42:38] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. In terms of the, like, life plan for a marriage, it’s lead the family instead of abdicating authority or treating the household as a pure democracy.[00:42:50] We advocate for this. We’ve done this since our very first book, The Pragmatist’s Guide to Relationships. The buck always needs to stop with somebody, right? Mm. Going for compromise causes both parties to drift apart in terms of their opinions, because each party is psychologically subtly rewarded for exaggerating their preferences.[00:43:09] If this isn’t clear to you, I’ll use the example here. If one side secretly wants two and the other side secretly wants four, the side that secretly wants four is psychologically rewarded for pretending they secretly want eight, and the side that wants two is psychologically rewarded for pretending they want one.[00:43:26] And if you know anything about how the human brain works, if you pretend to hold a position, you begin to hold a position more in that direction. So compromise actually moves you further. You need to just trust your partner enough to be like, “Okay, at the end of the day, on these really important things, I’m gonna trust your judgment on X because you have shown that y- if you treat your life as a form of martyrdom for the future,” right?[00:43:47] “Y- you’re not gonna act on your personal hedonistic preferences. You’re going to act on, with the information that you have access to, what is best for all of us.”[00:43:58] Simone Collins: Hmm. [00:44:00][00:44:00] Malcolm Collins: Be present, decisive, and protective. Make the marriage a priority, not just children or work. Perform the daily, quote-unquote, “little deaths,” the chores he dislikes, listening even when tired, giving the benefit of the doubt, putting the wife’s good ahead of his comfort.[00:44:16] Be a father who sets limits, educates, and provides stability, and cultivate a spiritual life, prayer, and the sacraments so the sacrifice is sustained by grace rather than pure willpower. Um I mean, yeah. I would agree with that. I think that for a woman especially, like the, the pure willpower form of hard work rather than the form of hard work that comes with as, as, as somebody who has lived both the more religious lifestyle where you live now versus a form of hard work that was just like grinding through because we had to grind through does feel significantly different.[00:44:59] Mostly because, I mean, I... The- for me the biggest difference is I know that everything is going to eventually work out for the better. And I know that civilization, not just at the level of my family but at the level of civilization and that makes the hard work feel less panicked, I, I would say and, and slightly more rewarding.[00:45:17] But that, that’s a big change that’s, that’s happened right there. And then the next one is, and, and this is one that we didn’t really realize until we were on the podcast. You can see the episode where we argue that love doesn’t really exist as the way society talks about it. She says love is not primarily a feeling.[00:45:33] She argues romantic intensity fades. Real marital love is a decision to keep going after illusions die, after fatigue and disappointment set in. Well I haven’t, I never felt the fatigue and disappointment but I will say I’ve never felt some separate emotion that I could call love. It requires both spouses to die a little every day, their a- ego expectations and preferred image of each other.[00:45:55] I don’t know. For me, whatever emotion of affection I have towards you, the the primary emotion I have is admiration. And that has not gone down over time, but I guess I, I do like the framing for people focusing on the romantic emotional subset as like the purpose of your marriage or the goal of your marriage or the barometer of your marriage’s health is really, really toxic even though it’s normalized.[00:46:20] Simone Collins: Well I, I don’t think it’s terribly sustainable e- especially if we’re going for like limerence. That, that just can’t, it cannot last. But yeah.[00:46:35] Malcolm Collins: I don’t- Yeah ...[00:46:36] Simone Collins: the, the disappointment or frustration, I think what she might be missing is she’s still, and maybe this is just to make it broadly appeal to people, that when you marry and have kids you are I mean, she talks about little deaths.[00:46:55] Like, what you are dies. You, your identity, it, it doesn’t matter anymore. You now exist within the context of your family, and you collectively as an entity are working towards something. So this idea that you would be frustrated with your partner, you’d be no more frustrated with your partner than you might be frustrated with, like, a sprained ankle that makes it hard to run your marathon, which is painful and, and, and frustrating, but i- in a very different context, right?[00:47:25] You’re like, you’re not mad at your sprained ankle. You’re like, “Okay, how are we gonna make this work? Like, can I splint it? Can I walk in a different way? You know, how can we... Like, can I ride a bike?” Yeah. So you just have to figure that out. A- and it’s, it’s not like You are part of the same body. It’s j- I, I, I don’t know how to articulate it[00:47:45] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, that’s the other thing that feels...[00:47:46] In, in our marriage, the word submission feels very weird to me because it would be like saying my, my arm is submissive to my brain. It’s like n- no, my arm isn’t submissive to my brain. My brain [00:48:00] naturally guides and commands my arm because we- Yeah,[00:48:02] Simone Collins: these things all fit[00:48:03] Malcolm Collins: together. Yeah. We’re, we’re one single entity.[00:48:06] I, I think making the man the brain within the family is a natural way to sort things and the way that most women prefer to live their lives, even if their preferred self-image of themselves isn’t that. Hmm ... and I think most women who are in touch with themselves are aware of this. It, it, it, it works j- just works really well.[00:48:28] Now, this I, I mentioned, you know, what, what some Bishop Mario Iceta of Bilbao said the title, quote, “Does not reflect what the church thinks,” end quote, about marriage and called it provocative and unfortunate.[00:48:43] Simone Collins: Unfortunate ...[00:48:44] Malcolm Collins: the the spokesperson of the Spanish Episcopal Conference, so this is keep in mind, not C- oh oh, yeah, no, it is Catholic, it’s, it’s Catholic Episcopals.[00:48:51] Mm-hmm. I think of Episcopal in the United States context. Yeah But José María Gil Tamayo stated, quote, “Submission does not correspond to the doctrine of the[00:49:00] church or the gospel,” end quote, and that Christian obedi- obedience is, not, quote, barrack style. And I love that that’s not what’s being put here.[00:49:08] They’re, they’re just literally saying you should not be obedient as a Christian, right? Like, that’s a mainstream mindset that’s becoming popular in these communities. And this is where I think, and within the nerd right online, a lot of people wonder why it can function with so many different religious groups atheists and secular thinkers all, all working together.[00:49:31] And it’s because we broadly recognize that the way that we see the structuring of a family is going to be fairly similar to the way a you know, a faithful Orthodox Jew sees the structuring of a family, or a secular person who is sane and has put some thought into the way that they’re structuring their family, right?[00:49:52] When contrasted with the, quote, unquote, “religious authority,” i- in, in, in, in, in Wokistan, right? Like, that, that’s clearly not whatever we’re about, right? Like, I would have the, the perspective that whether I am talking about, you know, Christian like leaflet or Jew or it’s actually Jew like Nux or you know, atheists like Sargon of Akkad.[00:50:15] All of us are gonna have fairly similar and in alignment with this book, which, you know, feels culturally related views on the way you should structure your marriage. Which I think is why it’s so easy to, to have this sort of wide cultural net in that it’s not actually that wide. It’s just a cultural net that’s focused on let’s try to find what actually works.[00:50:37] Simone Collins: Yeah. It’s just shocking to me that this wasn’t pigeonholed. I feel like if this book came out in the US, women would just be like, “Oh, that’s just some Catholic book that Catholic wives read.”[00:50:49] Malcolm Collins: Well, so-[00:50:49] Simone Collins: I mean, there are books that are associated with fundamentalist groups that sometimes, you know, content creators like Fundie Fridays, they’ll refer to them.[00:50:58] But they’re not... You know, people aren’t like ripping them apart in the streets like you. What[00:51:02] Malcolm Collins: I find so fascinating is, is how mild the message of the book is in my perspective, and common sense. Mm-hmm. And you’ll get people like Ana Mato, Minister of Health Services and Equity of Partido Po- Popular, say, “I do not share the title or the content at all, and I would like and have requested that this book be withdrawn.[00:51:22] I believe it is not appropriate and that this lack of respect towards women,” she, she said, “Neither any woman nor the majority of society approve of this book.” A- and then she asked the archbishop to quote-unquote “rectify” the book. Oh, this is the Partido de Popular, and said that it was a genuine absurdity.[00:51:40] And then a... Oh, th- th- this, this was the PP, the, that party. Then the P- O- S- O- A, the An- Andalusian Socialists demanded an immediate withdrawal of the book because they considered it quote-unquote “discriminatory and sexist.” And then the IU or the, this another political party, called the prosecutor’s office to investigate whether the book [00:52:00] constituted, quote, “an apology for violence against women,” end quote.[00:52:03] Simone Collins: What, what’s going on? Spain, are you okay?[00:52:07] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and then, and then Carmen Palazzo, the director of the Women’s Institute, sent an official letter to the archdiocese asking it to reconsider publication, stating that the book did not fit, quote, “The values of equality that public institutions must defend,” end quote, and describing the publication as anachronistic, I guess arguing that w- that women were never like this.[00:52:28] And I really tried to understand, like, why do they keep saying that it was about violence, right? Like, when it’s clearly the book never talks about violence. And I read-[00:52:35] Simone Collins: Wait. Okay. Maybe these groups are running out of funds. There’s nothing really for them to talk about or, or freak out over, and so this is kind of it.[00:52:47] This is, you know, this is another version of the Southern Poverty Law Center funding racism i- in whatever way they can because they need to have a big bad in order to raise money. So it could be happening, and this could totally make sense given Spain’s current economic climate and the shifting philanthropic climate as well, that these organizations that are freaking out and trying to raise awareness about this alarming book literally don’t have anything to work with, and they’re just-[00:53:16] Malcolm Collins: I’m that could be it.[00:53:17] I, I[00:53:18] Simone Collins: think- It, it, look, you can’t mis- misinterpret a word like mortificacion that poorly if you aren’t acting in bad faith, and I think one of the top things that can get people to act in bad faith is a motivation toward profit. So.[00:53:33] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So the president for the Federation of Associated and Se- Separated and Divorced Women in, in Spain has called the book a very clear manual for violence.[00:53:43] And I was very confused. You know, I, I, I think the term mortificacion in, in this context, like expecting your s- to make sacrifices on behalf of your partner in a daily manner might be the, the core thing, like the, the book’s title, Sub- Marry and Submit. Like, the idea of submission at all is sort of one of their core sins, right?[00:54:05] The idea that you would submit to anything other than your own whims is, within the urban monoculture, w- I, I think the cardinal sin.[00:54:16] Simone Collins: I just realized something about the way you mispronounce some words ‘cause you said it like morta focaccia, like it’s a focaccia, like food. And then I was like, wait, again.[00:54:27] You, you had the, the anfrotada or something. It sounded like frittata.[00:54:32] Malcolm Collins: Ca- yeah, the anfrotada. The an- the antifada. You gotta kinda call it with it. Yeah, the- And then you had the Strait of- Globalize the anti-[00:54:38] anfrotada[00:54:38] Simone Collins: You made it sound like the Strait of Vermouth. I feel like I figured out one of your pronunciation problems is you just, your mind goes to ingredients and foods.[00:54:48] Malcolm Collins: When I’m talking foreign words, I think that’s the one place where you as an American can talk foreign, all right? It’s[00:54:55] Simone Collins: when it’s food.[00:54:57] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, like when I say a disgusting Spanish word like taco, like I think that’s okay because- It’s taco, yes. That’s, it’s- It’s taco, right? Or an empanada or nacho or- Oh[00:55:07] Simone Collins: yeah. Yes, yes. Yes. And[00:55:09] Malcolm Collins: by the way, I, I, I’m, I’m joking here. For people who do not know, tacos are an American invention. They are not- Yes[00:55:13] a Spanish invention. Yes. Burritos ... which is very fu- There’s so many dishes that people are like, “How dare you steal my culture?” And I’m like actually, we invented that.” The, the, the other one that I l- that’s one of my favorites, it’s ramen. Made by American companies and popularized in Japan because we gave it to them in food rations after World War II.[00:55:30] Simone Collins: Fortune cookies, made in Oakland.[00:55:32] Malcolm Collins: W- what cookies?[00:55:33] Simone Collins: Fortune cookies.[00:55:34] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, fortune cookies is another one. But that didn’t become popular in the other country.[00:55:39] Simone Collins: Yeah, fair enough.[00:55:39] Malcolm Collins: Like for, but most Chinese people in China don’t believe that fortune cookies are actually a Chinese thing. They, they immediately recognize them as an American thing.[00:55:47] But yeah. What are your thoughts on the idea of submission, women’s roles in a marriage, and advice you would give to, to both men and women on this front?[00:55:58] Simone Collins: That you’re both submiss- submitting [00:56:00] to shared values. And, and what you are doing is becoming a member of an organization that puts the organization first, and the organization’s bottom line is your values.[00:56:11] So it’s not maximizing shareholder value, it is maximizing your collective agreed-upon shared values. And you ... I think people can understand this pretty easily because it’s seen, though demonized, in mainstream media. People regularly refer to the way that the British royal family internally refers to themselves as The Firm.[00:56:32] Mm-hmm. And the many instances framed as tragic and horrible, I don’t know. I, I, I think it is kind of tragic and horrible because of really stupid reasons why they did various things that, that involved sublimating the interests and desires of members of the family in favor of the interest of The Firm, and people being explicitly told, “You need to do this for The Firm.”[00:56:53] You know, including-[00:56:54] Malcolm Collins: Which I actually[00:56:55] Simone Collins: think of- ... abdication, not getting married to the person you really loved, right? And, like, a lot of these rules were kind of stupid. In the end, they maybe didn’t need to matter that much. But, like, that ... Th- there is this very clear example. People do understand. There are families that put the family first.[00:57:09] There are families that, ... This also I think really you could see happening with the Kennedys, though in a s- a slightly different way, where it’s like, “No, you put this family’s collective goals over your own.” And people did that. I ... They, they were a little bit lopsided in that commitment. There was a lot more commitment to hedonism among the Kennedy men.[00:57:28] But, like, still. Mm. You ... People can see this. This is not foreign. You just need to do it yourself. Your family deserves that. And you can do it. Well, I[00:57:36] Malcolm Collins: really like this framing that you’re taking right here, and I want to build on it. And I’ve mentioned this before, but I, I, I actually think this is the core.[00:57:43] I love reading romance books that are clearly written for women.[00:57:47] Simone Collins: I love you so much, Malcolm.[00:57:49] Malcolm Collins: About marrying the duke in whatever magical world.[00:57:55] But yeah, in, in, in my stories, you know, it’s always, oh, you go out and you marry the, the duke and then you join his household, and they often think of their own family as like a household with a collective mission and reputation and goals.[00:58:12] And those goals, it’s, it’s n- natural. It’s the most obvious thing in the world that they supersede the goals of the individual, right? Like, you don’t begin to think about your own goals until you’ve served your role as the duke’s daughter or whatever, right? You know? Yeah. S- Simone knows these stories.[00:58:30] They’re great stories. You’ll, y- more people, more people get into them ‘cause they’re, they’re very good at fr- framing for your family. That is what family should be. That is what we should go back to family being, and I think that that’s the healthiest way to frame family, is it is the institution of the family, the Collinses, the clan that is the most important thing in terms of advancing interests, but not just the most important thing, but my core unit of identity.[00:58:57] I am a limb of the entity which is the Collins clan.[00:59:03] Simone Collins: Oh, this shows up in Dune too. People are very committed to House Atreides, House Harkonnen. Like, that, that- Yes. Yeah. No, this is not hard for people to understand. Just grow a pair and do it, okay? And we don’t need to go any further than that. All right, love you.[00:59:17] I love you. I’m gonna make you fried rice for dinner. Again. I’m look-[00:59:19] Malcolm Collins: I’m looking forward to it.[00:59:23] Ugh.[00:59:24] Simone Collins: I still haven’t figured out what flavor is missing.[00:59:27] Malcolm Collins: I don’t know. Ask an AI. But w- you ... It, it just tastes slightly flavorless, and I don’t know ... There is some fla- It has[00:59:35] Simone Collins: soy sauce, hoisin sauce, brown sugar, MSG- There is[00:59:39] Malcolm Collins: some flavor you used in the past- ... chili peppers- ... that you’re not[00:59:39] Simone Collins: using right now[00:59:40] garlic, ginger- Are you remembering to[00:59:40] Malcolm Collins: use- ... oyster sauce ... black soy sauce and not white? Dark soy sauce?[00:59:47] Simone Collins: You want me to use dark ... There is not white soy sauce. In fried r-[00:59:50] Malcolm Collins: in fried rice, you generally use dark soy sauce.[00:59:53] Simone Collins: That would add a lot of extra s- sure. I, I, I will try that, and I will also ask AI as you’ve requested, and we’ll figure it out.[00:59:59] Malcolm Collins: I [01:00:00] love you.[01:00:02] Simone Collins: You drive me so cucking nuts. I love you too. This[01:00:04] Malcolm Collins: is[01:00:05] Simone Collins: really hard.[01:00:05] I sublimate myself to you. I will mortify myself. Ring ring ring ring ring. Mortify me. Well,[01:00:10] Malcolm Collins: you definitely, you definitely mortify yourself for me. I’m, I’m mortified just seeing it.[01:00:17] Simone Collins: Oh, no. Oh, God.[01:00:22] Malcolm Collins: I’m super excited.[01:00:24] Simone Collins: Octavian got a really good grip on why communism sucks today, like, w- in a two-minute conversation- Oh ... and I was really impressed.[01:00:33] Malcolm Collins: Wait,[01:00:34] Simone Collins: really? He was like, “Why can’t I have everything for free?” And I’m like, At first, I’m like look, just systems break when everything’s free.” And then I’m like, “Okay, fine.[01:00:43] Let’s, let’s talk about this, Octavian. Let’s imagine that we got two helicopter toys, but there are five kids. W- well, we could make the helicopters have a price, or we could make them free. And if they’re free, basically whichever kid gets to them first gets to play with the helicopter toy. That’s their helicopter toy.[01:01:02] You value helicopters more than any other kid in this family, so if I added a price to it, like you have to clean up this thing, or you have to eat all your dinner, or what, you have to do this many lessons, like, then you w- ... basically, Titan doesn’t care about helicopters. She won’t do the work. Torsten doesn’t care helicop- about helicopters.[01:01:21] He won’t do the work. So you will do the work, which is totally worth it for you, and you’ll get the helicopter. And that’s why it is important to put a price to things- ... because if you don’t, then things will end up going to people who don’t even want them, and those who actually want them- You are an excellent mother[01:01:35] won’t be able to access a, a scarce resource.” And he, like, totally got it, and he’s like, “Oh, I’m glad things aren’t free.” And it made me very happy that our son is not going to be a Marxist socialist. Very[01:01:44] Malcolm Collins: happy that you’re not raising a communist?[01:01:46] Simone Collins: Look, I was... He kept saying it. Were you,[01:01:48] Malcolm Collins: like, rapidly anti-communism when you were in college, too?[01:01:52] Or did that- I think so ... like, come as you became more conservative?[01:01:55] Simone Collins: No, I, I think I was, I think I was very against it in in high school, too. I think- ‘Cause remember, I wanted to go into environmental business, right? Oh. I wanted a business degree. I was like, the only way to actually make change in this world is through capitalism.[01:02:10] So that’s how much of a believer in it I was. Like, I was this, like, “I must save the planet” hippie, but like-[01:02:16] Malcolm Collins: With money and capitalism, of course ...[01:02:18] Simone Collins: I understood that, like, the government was gonna g- d- like, actually be effective or anything like that. That would be, that would be delusional, Malcolm.[01:02:26] Malcolm Collins: I love that you have a talk with him about communism.[01:02:29] That’s crazy talk to me. I, I didn’t go get him, ‘cause if he’s with Ali already, then he’s not gonna be doing any more lessons.[01:02:33] Simone Collins: I don’t- No, I, I don’t think he is. Well, and I asked I’m, I’m... I asked him to have Awia help him, ‘cause maybe, you know, having a friend over to help you with your math questions.[01:02:42] She’s like a cool girl that you think you want to impress, you know? Maybe she’ll help him out. I don’t know.[01:02:48] Speaker 3: Okay, what are you gonna name your caterpillar? I’m gonna name-[01:02:53] Spiky Spiky? Yeah. Well, be gentle with him. Okay? Because- All right, show me what you got, buddy ... because sea snakes- I actually have two spiders I love his leg[01:03:06] sea snakes, they are like spikes. Hello, Mr. Spiky. I want him that one. Oh, thank you. Spiky the caterpillar. My fourth grade. All right, show us. Show us what Alia sh- taught you[01:03:20] Wow. Right? You’re making... Wow, Octavian. Wow. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe