] Hello, Malcolm. I’m excited to be speaking with you today because Iwe’ve had a lot of evolving ideas about our immigration policy. Like sh- you know, can we, can we do some form of immigration that’s okay? And we’ve kind of shifted to like, “No, it’s not possible.” But then people kept telling us to look at what Denmark is doing.And I thought that maybe Denmark would have some super based policies like, oh, you know, you should have assimilation tests, you should learn the language, you should, I don’t know, like we should limit the number of, of asylum receivers that we, we, we accept. But no, it’s so much more than that because they’re like, “You know what I really hate?I really hate immigrant slums. Let’s just destroy them systematically- ... and with data.” And that’s actually what they did. They, they, they, they implemented this, like, anti-ghetto program starting in 2018- ... that has actually been really effective. And it’s this whole system for identifying them and then [00:01:00] subjecting whatever they consider to be a ghetto, th- subjecting them to punitive measures.Like, they’ll kick out entire families if just one member has convicted a crime. They will force their children- Ooh,Malcolm Collins: that- that’s some good stuff. I like this.Simone Collins: It’s good. It’s good. They’ll force the children to learn Danish language, traditions, and norms. For a while, although this has stopped, they even imposed harsher sentences for vandalism and theft and threats that they, that anyone committed within one of these designated areas.So like, it’s like me telling our kids, like, “Look, you’re gonna get, you know, grounded for a week if you do X in general, but if you do it in the middle of a messy room that you just made messy, like, two weeks, done.” This was called double punishment or dobbeltstraff, which is delightful. Dobbeltstraff.Malcolm Collins: I love the Danish- Dobbeltstraffmaking it all nice with their longSimone Collins: phrases. I know. And just like if someone told that to me, I’d be like, “Oh, two scoops, please. That sounds fantastic.” Like, whatever. I,Malcolm Collins: I agree with this. I think that we should be implementing laws like this. And I think we need to get back to it in [00:02:00] the United States.Like, a- a- and, and frankly, it makes even these communities safer.Simone Collins: For real. Yeah, we, we, I mean, what we’re gonna get into, I’ll walk you through the details of it, and the more I, I learned about this, the more I thought, I wish that various communities around where I lived were subject to these same rules because they’re, they’re actually really smart.They’re good for everyone involved, be they immigrants or non-immigrants. Like, what they’re really trying to do is just break up these areas that become slums, that become unsafe and unpleasant for everyone involved. AndMalcolm Collins: this is exactly the way I feel about this. In terms of like who do we want to get out of the country, and people are like, “Oh, the immigrants or whatever,” you know, there’s some groups that have been in America for a long time that cause just as much damage, right?Like-Simone Collins: It’s true. Yeah ...Malcolm Collins: a- and, and there are some immigrants that are very economically productive and- Yeah ... really help move the country and our value system forward.Simone Collins: Yeah.Malcolm Collins: And those people aren’t the problem, right?Simone Collins: Well, and that, what’s great about this is this [00:03:00] is a system that doesn’t punish them. Like, what’s the case with so many other countries, like there are countries in the, in the EU even that are even more strict with immigration.Like Hungary- Well, this is, this is a great thing- ... is like not even, don’t even come ... I,Malcolm Collins: I think a lot of people are, are not seeing it this way, is- Yeah ... in the United States where you have some communities, like when we talked about the Anthony trial, Mm ... this feeling of persecution the Black American population has or, or p- a portion of it has that is just completely imaginary.When you look at the actual data- Mm ... or what’s actually being done as we saw in that case and the people freaking out about it, and it’s like Just make this m- mythical persecution that they feel so high that they just self-deport if they’re going to be that much of a negative externality for society.Because these people who are out protesting that case middle of the day on a weekday, they don’t have jobs, right? Like, that’s why they’re able to, to go there every day and do this, right? And we’re actually already starting to see this. I don’t know if you’ve seen this video thing where it’s it’s a, it’s a classic, like, right-wing video where they [00:04:00] go over the video of an American a, a Black American who had, like, a persecution complex, so they decided to move to Africa- Oh, nowhere, like, everything was gonna be great and awesome. Oh, no. And then they realize how terrible it is and how everyone there is just constantly, Mm ... exploiting them and victimizing them and, and sees them as the bad guy. And that they just don’t understand why the, why, why everybody... And it’s like, well, I mean, that’s...One, they’re partially doing it ‘cause you’re an outsider, but two, I mean, these countries, there is a reason why they are so much poorer. And one of the reasons is, is, is, is just they have a culture in a lot of these regions of scamming people constantly. Like, that’s, that’s the main way... And, and cultures differentiate.I know that this is something that, like, horrifies people to hear, and there are obviously a lot of different reasons why, I mean, a whole other episode, why is Africa poor? We’ve explained one of the reasons is belief in witches is so high that it leads to distrust in business interactions. Yeah. Like, it’s actually a, a big problem how much they believe in witches.Simone Collins: Oh, yeah. We did a whole episode on that, [00:05:00] and that, like, they think that the United States is cursing them with spells, and that’s why things aren’t- Yeah ... working out.Malcolm Collins: But if you, if you’ve tried to or if you have read about this might actually be a great way to look at, like, why Africa is poor, to just read through one of these Black Americans who went to Africa and, like, tried to start a company.Mm-hmm. And then it just, like, every stage people don’t show up. Like, you’re paying them, and they just stop showing up one day, or they steal stuff from you even though you’re paying them at above-market wages, or they... And then at every stage, the level of corruption just makes the end product worse and worse and worse until it’s just not competitive, no matter how low the wages are within a region.And this is, it, I mean, it, it, it’s, it’s really horrible. And we’ve seen this to a lesser extent in Latin America. Like, you, you get this doing business in Latin America as well. Everything’s a scam. Like, top to bottom, there are, it’s, it’s just like some scam involved in so many parts of, like, regular business interactions or trying to make something [00:06:00] work that you do not have in a lot of these other countries, and it causes negative externalities for the society around it.Simone Collins: Yeah, it just makes everything more expensive to function properly. Like, because of the, because of rampant scams or people trying to avoid things, for example, their version of the IRS called Sunat is, is forced to, like, literally show up at businesses and start just randomly interviewing all of your employees and asking them how much they’re, they make.Because they, they know that people are lying that much that this is the only way they can actually functionally catch people, and you have to file your taxes every month instead of every year. Like, imagine if the IRS had to have a budget for field agents to just literally, like, visit virtually every business on a regularMalcolm Collins: basis.Well, I mean, we’re gonna need that if we keep accepting people from countries where that’s normal into our country.Simone Collins: Yeah.Malcolm Collins: Right? Like,Simone Collins: Yeah. I know, at this point, I kinda wish that we just had an... Honestly, like, my, our in- our interactions with Sunat, as, like, tedious as they can be, I was like, “All right, guys.You’re, you’re doing it. This is good, actually.” You’reMalcolm Collins: doing your job, yeah.Simone Collins: [00:07:00] Yeah. It, it, there was, there was some comfort in that. That’s a, a very fair point. But yeah, I mean, yeah, I do, what I do like about Denmark is that they are, they’re trying so hard when all these other countries, like, you know, in Japan, it’s almost impossible to immigrate.It’s, it’s almost impossible to immigrate to Australia which basically doesn’t accept as- asylum seekers, nor does Hungary, nor does, I mean, I, Poland, I think, is more restrictive too. Well, JapanMalcolm Collins: made it easier to immigrate for a while, and now they’re, they’re making it re- more restrictive again.Simone Collins: Yeah.Well, and yeah. But, like, it’s, those are just th- basically one policy which you see across many of these countries that I just mentioned, for example, is just nobody. No one comes. We’re not allowing it to happen. What I find interesting about Denmark and what we might be able to learn from them is there may be ways to accept people in, to try to help people, to give an opportunity to those who want to opt into your culture and opt into your world and contribute to your economy.They can come. They can help. And if they’re not gonna help, then let’s [00:08:00] get rid of this. Also, I think it’s really, this, what makes them unique is this, especially this ghetto policy of we’re not going to have, as they put it now more diplomatically, parallel societies in our country where there are just these whole zones that don’t feel like- Like Denmark.And there are so many of these zones in the United States too. In some ways growing up, I really liked them. Like, it was so cool when we lived in Miami for a while, where, like, it really didn’t feel like Miami or, like, the United States, ‘cause you’d get in a car and, like, your Uber driver doesn’t speak any English.And you’d, you’d go shopping and no one speaks any English, and everywhere you walk no one speaks any English, and you’re like, “This is weird, but interesting.” And then we’ve had Chinatowns forever, where it totally feels like another country. Like Oakland’s Chinatown had, like, a pretty good concentration of that in the San Francisco Bay Area.Plus, there’s the San Francisco Chinatown, which could feel like that in certain parts of it. So, like, there are parts of it that I [00:09:00] think are cool, but if you have that with increased poverty and crime, it gets bad. And actually, that’s kind of how this works with Denmark. It’s not like, oh, if you have some kind of cultural flair you can’t be here.It’s based on the statistical nexus of bad things. I, I’ll get into it. But, like, the, the primary thing with Denmark in terms of what differentiates them is their asylum status has shifted from just being like, “Okay, we’re gonna help you, you can come,” to, “You can be here for a while, and then we’re gonna get you back home.”They have very low asylum recognition rates, and then they also have strict self-sufficiently requi- s- self-sufficiency requirements. You can’t just go there and leech off the state as easily as you could historically in Sweden or as you can in Germany and France. Also, they are more relatively open to skilled laborers, which is a really common thing among many strict immigration countries, but they’re [00:10:00] really strict with People who are both non-skilled but also non-EU, and this is one of the pivotal things about Denmark’s immigration policy, where they, they have different policies if you are Western or if you are not Western.Ooh. And we’re gonna get back to how that’s going for them, because I did write- Probably prettyMalcolm Collins: well?Simone Collins: It’s, it’s going well for them, but somebody doesn’t like it and is trying to stop it. I wonder if you can guess who.Speaker: We’ve been fucked by the Pope. Oh, for the love of God, context. Hey. Buzz off, the new pope is apparently chill AF.Speaker 4: And Jesus said, “I shall not bogart salvation. Heaven is dead as Litfam.Ocasio-Cortez 2024.”Speaker: I need one of you to go to Rome and brainwash the Pope into a hardcore religious conservative overnight.Note, in this case, it’s only downstream of the pope’s push for unfettered immigration in terms of the EU pushing for this and the laws of the EU [00:11:00] pushing it on non-Catholic majority countries evenJust as a side note, ‘cause I didn’t know where to put this in the episode, , but I had this revelation yesterday where we did the episode, and we had a few people in the comments who were like, “Oh, the Holocaust didn’t happen,” or whatever. And I got very confused by this , , assertion because, you know, like I have grandparents, Simone has grandparents, , and our grandparents fought in the Western Theater, right?So like we are aware, like from their own stories, I asked Simone about this. I mean, is it normal to like talk about seeing the camps or hearing about the camps? Because they had... If you didn’t see them personally, you would have heard other people who had seen them. , And, , I had this realization where I was like, oh my God, what are the two things that are most common in people who deny the Holocaust?And it’s either they’re from broken families, e.g. it’s very common in Black communities where they don’t have fathers as frequently, and in Catholic communities [00:12:00] who are recent immigrants. And most Catholic countries didn’t actually fight in World War II or at least fight meaningfully against the, the ends., Specifically Ireland didn’t fight, Spain didn’t fight, France was immediately conquered, Italy was on their side.And Latin America was largely uninvolved So if you’re from any of these countries, you wouldn’t have grandparents who were involved in this. , Now I’m not saying they’re all the descendants of cowards and everything, but it just makes sense, something that seems so confusing to me.It’s like, didn’t you hear stories about it when you were growing up from your grandparents? And I was like, oh no, they probably didn’t, either because they’re from broken families or they’re from families that were not involved in the warSimone Collins: But yeah, they, they, they, they literally have... This is how their explicit non-Western targeting works.So if you’re an immigrant or a descendant, this isn’t just first generations from a country outside the EU you are considered non-Western. So this includes the Middle East, North Africa, [00:13:00] Pakistan, and Turkey. But it doesn’t include, for example, like, the United States, Canada, Australia, like generally Western countries, even if they’re non-EU countries.The UK, those are all, like, f- fine. They’re, like, they’re Western. Yeah. Which is, I think, quite interesting. So they really are looking for a cultural match. And here’s how their vulnerable residential areas or parallel societies policy works. First it, it, it came out of their initial 2018, like- They kind of had this crash out in 2018 where they were just so done with immigrants, and it was that year that they released the, the progenitor of this called their ghetto package, and they literally called it the ghetto package, which isMalcolm Collins: delightful.TheSimone Collins: ghettoMalcolm Collins: package? Okay.Simone Collins: Yes. And they, they had to- they’ve decided to officially drop the explicit term ghetto in 2021 because they considered it stigmatizing, and then they replaced that with- OhMalcolm Collins: my God ...Simone Collins: vulnerable residential areas and parallel [00:14:00] societies. But I still, even though they did that, the fact that they started out by calling them ghettos- TheMalcolm Collins: ghetto packageandSimone Collins: we all know that they’re ghettos, is enough for me. And I’m so with that. No one wants ghettos. People in the ghetto don’t want ghettos, okay? Like, they might want cool cultural enclaves, but they don’t want ghettos. And this is, is, this framed under larger policies they have called One Denmark Without Parallel Societies.Like, basically, if you wanna be in Denmark, freaking be in Denmark. Don’t half-ass it. And what happens is every year they publish this list that identifies crummy social housing neighborhoods, and then it applies graduated and increasingly coercive measures to them if they stay on the naughty list.And it’s very data-driven. It focuses on socioeconomic metrics and crime metrics and ethnic composition Ugh ... which is how they’re kind of getting in trouble. And [00:15:00] this parallel society, which I’m reminding you means ghetto, and they explicitly said that earlier, so I should just call it ghettos. A ghetto, as far as they’re concerned, is both vulnerable and more than 50% of residents are immigrants or descendants from non-Western countries.That is outside the EU, UK, USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand. So you could have a vulnerable society, but if it’s all, like, Brit- British expats, this is not gonna end up on the danger list. Do you see what I’m saying? Yeah. Like, they are targeting. They’re, they’re being very explicit about, like, integration with Western society, which is interesting, and I d- I just, I didn’t I don’t know, like by progressive programming.I didn’t know you could do that. Can you do that? Are you allowed to do that? We’re gonna get to that, but I, I didn’t know anyone had the balls to do this. This is very interesting. And okay, so first this is how they identify a vulnerable area, and anyone could be in a [00:16:00] vulnerable area. It could be all people who’ve lived in Denmark for hundreds of years, it could be people from, you know, Germany or Australia.It has to have at least two out of these four criteria met on a two-year or more basis. So more than 40% of the residents aged 18 to 64 are neither employed nor in school. Already that’s like a... That’s pretty generous in my opinion. If nearly half of the people in an area are NEETs or, like, unemployed and not studying, that’s, that’s a sick area.So I think- Yeah ... they should be a little more strict with that, but it’s a start. Also, so cri- next criteria is that the share of residents convicted of penal law, weapons, or drug offenses is more than three times the national average. Totally fair. I would have it two times- Yeah ... but whatever. Also, more than 60% of residents aged 30 to 59 have only primary school education.So, like, if it’s we’ll say [00:17:00] an unemployed crime, crime-ridden neighborhood... Oh wait, that’s already two criteria. But if it’s, like, a crime-ridden neighborhood but everyone has graduate degrees and they’re employed, it’s okay. All right? And, and then average gross income for residents aged 15 to 64 is less than 55% of the regional average.So really they’re targeting poor, uneducated, non-working, crime-ridden areas. Like, that screams ghetto, so I think they’re being super reasonable with this. Yeah ... and they also have this like- Even if you are not super immigrant heavy, you can still fall into some kind of, like, program. They have a separate prevention areas list that they introduced in 2021 for earlier intervention, so it only has thresholds of, like, over 30% Western, non-Western share.So th- th- this isn’t, like, all or nothing. But here’s what they do with the ghettos that they’ve identified. If a place has been designated as a parallel society, AKA [00:18:00] ghetto, for at least five consecutive years... So again, I would just say two. I, I really don’t care. Two consecutive years. Here’s what happens.Their kids get a remedial intervention. Basically they have to get a Danish le- level test before they start school, and they’re offered preparatory language training. So they’re like, “Dude, you gotta learn our language.” All children aged one year and older living in a vulnerable area have to attend preschool for at least 25 hours a week, and that has to be focused on Danish language, traditions, and norms.And parents may provide the equivalent instruction at home instead, but they have to be monitored for that. And parents who refuse to preschool their children along these lines can lose the normal Danish child benefit which i- is good. I would be more strict than that, but it’s a start.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I wouldn’t give them child benefits at all.What, what, what are they doing with these? Yeah. I mean-Simone Collins: They, they’re being very generous, but still, I say it’s a start and it’s inspiring. You can learn from it. Just do the evil, strict version of this and [00:19:00] you’re fine. In terms of adults, they’re coaxed into integrating. So housing association meetings in vulnerable areas have to be held in Danish.They can’t be in whatever, like, the predominant language is. Residents... A- and this is big, ‘cause keep in mind, like, there are plenty of communities in the United States where they’re trying to change languages to the immigrant community’s language because they’re trying to be so accommodating. So I appreciate that they’re pushing for, “No-Yeahthis is our country. You’re gonna use our language.” Residents are also subject to mandatory Danish language and active citizenship integration programs. So they’re not only being taught Danish, but they’re also being taught Danish societal norms, and there are participation expectations. Like, if you You can’t just know our norms, you have to conform with them.And if you don’t participate, you can get reductions in your social benefits on top of already lower integration allowance rates compared to higher standard social assistance. So [00:20:00] Danish citizens who are not immigrants are getting more social services than people who are immigrants, to your earlier point.And then my favorite part is that housing has changed. So s- the social housing share in these neighborhoods has to be reduced to a maximum of 40% in redevelopment areas, and that’s a 60% reduction target. So they will literally just demolish social housing blocks and empty buildings out and convert them into private or cooperative ownership.Like, they... It’s forced gentrification of ghettos, which I’ve never seen done before, especially not on a government level. And you can imagine how people would freak out if that was done in the United States. So again, I’ve gotta tip my hat to them. This is impressive, especially for a EU country. And they will evict entire families from social housing and relocate them to a different part of Denmark if just one member commits a crime, which I think it’s great.[00:21:00] I, ‘cause we, we’ve been talking a lot internally and among the Basecamp community about high trust societies and the importance of basically, you know, people being encouraged to self-police. And this is a great kind of policy you can implement within a government that will force citizens to self-police.Mm-hmm. Like, if I know I’m gonna lose my sweet housing deal because my brother is messing around, I’m going to be so on him. You know what I mean? And it’s, it’sMalcolm Collins: been pretty- Well, and, and yeah, it, it encourages communities to handle. But what- Yeah ... what, what is the level at which the community is just demolished?How does that, that... Is it, or do they not do that?Simone Collins: Yeah, so they v- oh, they’ll just evict people. They’ll evict people and demolish the buildings, and then give that land or, or in- facilitate contracts going to companies that will develop them as private co-ops- ... for, like, bougie people. TheyMalcolm Collins: just- I love that too, yeah.Simone Collins: Yeah. You know, like I, I feel like as kids who grew up in the [00:22:00] ‘90s, a really common plot in films was, “This folksy old bookstore is going to get steamrolled over by a private equity company that’s gonna build high-rises.” And this is just Denmark being like, “Yes, we will. No.” Yes. “Let us help you. We’ve got you here.We’re doing this.”Malcolm Collins: But I think w- I, I mean, if I was implementing a policy like this, along with the eviction I would like revoke citizen status for everyone in the- I agree ... in the neighborhood.Simone Collins: Yeah, and I asked about that. I’m like, “Why are they, why are they not also being deported?” I’m, I’m baffled as to why they would not just deport people.And this is something that does happen in places like Japan. If you commit crimes, you’re out. We don’t like you. And I don’t, I honestly don’t get- Well, I thinkMalcolm Collins: what they might be like is, “Well, what if they’re second generation immigrants?” I’m like, “I don’t care if someone’s a second generation immigrant.Deport them,” right? Like, I don’t-Simone Collins: Honestly, like I think it, we should get to a point, w- bring back penal colonies, like I keep saying, right? And this is like the, the dream of mine. Well,Malcolm Collins: I mean, I think Trump has g- you know, when people keep freaking out [00:23:00] about the, them sending deportees to places like Haiti when they’re not Haitian, I’m like, that’s, you know,Simone Collins: that- No, but I mean for, like American citizens too.What we see from crime data-Malcolm Collins: No, I, I mean that too Oh, okay Like, let’s deport more people to Haiti. Like, like that’s our penal colony. Just deport them there. Like, it’s, it’s a, it’s a PVP server, okay? Like, people wanna playSimone Collins: PVP- I mean, after a while it would probably improve Haiti, so. I mean, like look at Australia.It, it wouldMalcolm Collins: actually.Simone Collins: Australia’s doing great now, relatively speaking. And They now actually are one of the most rest- western countries when it comes to immigration.Yeah, and theystarted as a penal colony. Because they’re so good, they can’t let any of the undesirables in. Meanwhile, they were, like, literally the trash can of the world for a while.So look, that could, Haiti could be next. Let’s do it. I’m saying, like, this is, this doesn’t have to be about immigrants. We, there was this long analysis, I can’t remember if, I think Scott Alexander published it, maybe it was Cremieux about crime and incarceration and what actually works, right? Is it [00:24:00] deterrent?Is it deterrence that scares people away from doing crimes? Or is it the fact that they’ve been removed from society? And it was just so clear from the data that the benefit of incarceration or f- punishment isn’t to scare people away from doing bad things, it’s literally to take them away. We need them gone.Yeah. And the more they can just be removed from a society, the better off that society is. And I don’t want these people to suffer. I’m all, I’m fine with just, like-Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, if they- ... puttingSimone Collins: themMalcolm Collins: somewhere else ... cause suffering on people around them, right? Like, they are the cause. It is, it is their culture.It is people like them that leads to the suffering.Simone Collins: Yeah.Malcolm Collins: So if you move them to an environment where everyone’s like them, then it forces them all to either have to improve or live in the hellscape they’ve created. Yeah. The problem is, is that you think, oh, they will improve, when what we really see, I mean, an- again, this is why so many countries in Africa are as poor as they are, is they just don’t.They just keep scamming each other, scamming each other, [00:25:00] scamming each other, faking projects, faking doing this, faking the construction, faking that, until the whole society is just a hellscape. Well,Simone Collins: I don’t know. I mean, Australia... I don’t know Australia’s history very- We actually have a lot of Australian listeners.Maybe they can explain what they’ve been taught in history class about how they turned from a penal colony to a successful country But whatever. I, here is, is what, what happened though. ‘Cause this is relatively new, right? So just from 2018 to 2022, these vulnerable residential areas, which are pretty bad per the criteria that I listed off, right?They fell from 43, so there were 43 of these in Denmark in 2018, to 17 in 2022.Malcolm Collins: Wow.Simone Collins: This works. Like, you can ... I mean, it might be because you’re, like, evicting and demolishing social housing, but it works. Parallel societies dropped from 29 to 10 in the same period. Wow. Remember, vulnerable neighborhoods residential areas [00:26:00] don’t have to be immigrant-based, but, like, even during this time, even, like, non-immigrant communities became a lot, well, reduced in frequency I guess or whatever.Malcolm Collins: So- Yeah, and I’m, and I’m okay with this being applied to redneck communities, to anything, right? Like, you- Yeah ... you apply this anywhere where you have a genuine parallel society. IfSimone Collins: it’s a ghetto, if it’s a blight- AndMalcolm Collins: they’re committing lots of crimes ...Simone Collins: if it’s not a goodMalcolm Collins: placeSimone Collins: to live- Yeah ... gentrify. Like, force gentrification all the way.This is great. So I alluded to someone trying to resist this. The EU is, is trying to, like, literally block this from happening.Malcolm Collins: The EU is trying to- Yeah. The EU is so f-ing evil.Simone Collins: Yes. So the, this whole parallel societies program, despite the fact that they took out the word ghetto- And it’s working ... yeah, anyway, the parallel societies program is facing legal challenges on EU discrimination grounds, you see.The explicit use of the non-Western ethnic criterion for triggering the strongest measures, [00:27:00] that is to say, the parallel society, AKA ghetto, designation and redevelopment has been criticized by the EU. In February of last year, an EU Court of Justice advocate general opined that it constitutes direct discrimination based on ethnic origin.And obviously, yes, but-Malcolm Collins: We all of, all, all of the, our countries are built on that. That’s like-Simone Collins: Yes ...Malcolm Collins: that’s, that-Simone Collins: I mean, like, that was the point. That’s why they made the designation because there’s this one group, and I can also share thatMalcolm Collins: data. Different groups are different. Pretending thatSimone Collins: different groups are different- And the data is so freaking clear on that, and we will cover that, but it just, ugh.So but in December of last year, the Court of Justice issued statements indicating that ethnic criteria breach EU law, and they recommend for Danish courts to change their ways. And we’re still waiting for final rulings on very specific [00:28:00] cases of people trying to, like, contest all this and-Malcolm Collins: I recommend you do what I tell you to, or else.Simone Collins: Yeah, because what’s happening is I’m sure some social justice nonprofit has funded people who are being evicted. Say, like, one of their kids murders someone, and they get lo- they’re kicked out of their social housing, and they’re like, “I’ve had injustice done.” And some nonprofit comes in and is like, “Hey, why aren’t you letting families’ kids murder people in their neighborhoods?Why are you kicking themMalcolm Collins: out?” I mean, this is literally where leftism is at this point, right? Like...Simone Collins: There’s a reason why that one why that- Armie Hammer movies been very successful. People are like, are you kidding me? Like, we’re not allowed... You’re telling me that if... And I, again, the criteriaMalcolm Collins: for RP are not strict enough I think, I think we need to go full Armie Hammer on the problem and just eat them.Well, that, again, that,Simone Collins: that is why-Malcolm Collins: That’s, that’s, that’s where we’ve got to... For people who don’t know, the reason Armie Hammer was canceled and, like, disappeared from the public was [00:29:00] because it came out that he had a vore fetish. And then he wasn’t in movies forever. Now he’s in this new movie where he hunts down, like, rapists, and I’m like-Simone Collins: Just, no, no, so he doesn’t, he’s so, he, he’s, in the movie, the plot of the movie is he’s this ex-military dude living in the EU, and he doesn’t only murder the, the people who committed these crimes. He also goes after officials who don’t do anything about it. Because this, it, the European and I think broader anger isn’t just aboutlike migrantscommitting crimes.‘Cause to a certain extent you’re like, look, they’re coming from these circumstances. A lot of this is out of their control. Like, I don’t want them here, but I don’t, like I, I expect... They’re the scorpion, they’re gonna do what they do. It’s a scorpion, what do you expect, right? Like your whole thing. But It’s these peopleMalcolm Collins: who know- You need to go full Armie Hammer on the solution, yeahSimone Collins: but it’s the officials, it’s the officials who know that certain groups are disproportionately committing crimes and hurting their local societies, and then [00:30:00] showing up to Denmark and being like, “You can’t do that, that’s discriminatory,” even though the stats are super clear. But yeah, despite, despite the fact that, that the EU’s trying to reach out- He’s likeMalcolm Collins: Dexter but for immigrantsSimone Collins: like Dexter, but f- for immigrants and for officials who turn a blind eye or even attempt to suppress criticism of policies that are leading societies to fall apart and lose essentially-Malcolm Collins: Everybody wanted this ... their power Everybody wanted this movie. Everyone’s like, “I’m so f*****g done with this.”And I think th- that’s what we’re going to start seeing in the EU. I mean, I expect more vigilante justice, es- especially against officials sort of going into the future. We’ll see. Because the problem feels so intractable at this point. And I think, you know, where this is, like, w- most effective is specifically at the lower level people who are initiating things, like the challenge to Denmark and stuff like that, right?Mm-hmm. When people don’t feel that they can go out and try to [00:31:00] enforce this or there, or there is some sort of negative externality to them other than just status seeking you’ll start to see it happening less.Simone Collins: Yeah.Malcolm Collins: No, I’m not, I’m not advocating for anything. I’m, I’m just saying that y- th- somebody’s gonna reason through this and think that.Because that’s sort of the position that people are being forced in when they’re voting for these programs. These programs are being enacted and they are working, and then people are still like, “No, let’s keep in the g- the, the greatest,” right? Like, come on.Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Well, and I mean, th- yeah, there’s this really weird resistance taking place in Europe.Like, the Netherlands and the UK are, to a lesser extent, trying to sort of push back in a way similar to what Denmark is doing, but not even close. I mean, Denmark goes beyond New Zealand... Or sorry, the Netherlands exam-based national system, where they’re trying to, like, sort of test people’s ability to integrate into the Netherlands language and society and traditions.And the [00:32:00] UK also has this citizenship test because Denmark also has these area-specific... I just, I love the ghetto policy, and the child mandates, and the housing redevelopment tied to specific ethnic mandates. And then e- even Sweden, which historically was so open to immigration, leading to huge gang problems, fire bombings, integration issues.In fact, we’re gonna have a guest come on later this month, I think maybe for, like, one main episode and then one weekend episode. And in one of the weekend episode, he, he said he could talk to us about these, like, integration towns where they’re trying now to, like, teach immigrant groups to integrate in meaningful ways.Like- He was describing them giving lessons to, like, literally learn how to use ovens because they were lighting fires on the floors in their apartments and causing buildings to burn down or something I, I,Malcolm Collins: I’m sorry, you shouldn’t be accepting immigrants who are [00:33:00] that out of out of your culture.Simone Collins: I, yeah.So I mean, look, let’s just say Denmark is fairing better than Sweden right now. Okay? Den- I don’t see Denmark like, “This is how you use an oven.” Like, they’re now just trying to get people to, like, “Hey, y- your kid needs to speak some, some, a little more fluently.” But the outcomes are, are pretty clear. So first off, in Denmark, despite all of these interventions, they still see more crime from non-Western immigrants and descendants.So let’s see. They have high crime indices for male descendants from Lebanon, that’s three to 4X the general population. Somalia, Syria, and Iraq at two to 3X, and then young male non-Western descendants have markedly higher rates, like 13% of certain 17 to 24 cohorts were convicted in their peak data periods.And this is strongest in violent crime, certain sexual offenses, [00:34:00] property crime, and traffic violations. So first off, I feel like... I, I mean, I guess EU’s non-discrimination policies have nothing to do with, like, is it discrimination when a group statistically and clearly, even within, despite your more punitive measures in yourMalcolm Collins: country- Bro, it’s discriminate...When, when, when multiple people see you stab a white kid to death, it’s still discrimination if you’re punished for it, right? Like, that- Yeah ... th- this is where the left is right now. It has nothing to do with whether or not they actually are a negative externality on other groups, or whether or not they actually did something criminal.It’s just about what really the destruction of Western civilization. Like, that’s, that’s where we are with, like, the EU and stuff like that at this point.Simone Collins: Yeah. But I just... I wanted to make that clear, that like, despite all these measures, Danish citizens and, and, and even immigrant groups are still being disproportionately hurt by these non-Western immigrant participants in their society.And [00:35:00] if they’re super not wrong for being like, “No, we’re gonna hold you to a higher standard because you have a worse reputation, and statistically you’re doing worse stuff.” I mean, like, if, like we, as, as parents understand that some of our kids are way more likely to.. Like, vandalize our house and draw on our walls and do stuff like that, right? Like, we know that, and so we keep a closer eye on them. That... We don’t hate that kid. We just know they they just tend to do some stuff, right?Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So, like, we w- if, if, if, if, you know, in Denmark, you can have laws where groups that are more stabby, like even if a normal person can walk around with a knife, you know, you shouldn’t let a Sikh walk around with a knife.OhSimone Collins: my God, Malc. Okay. Right. What I should say, though, is despite this fact that non-Western immigrants and descendants of immigrants in Denmark are more likely to be committing crimes, they still have, in Denmark, overall public, better public safety and lower escalation [00:36:00] of gang violence than, say, Sweden, which saw all these sharp rises in bombings and shootings linked to immigrant background networks.And Denmark’s earlier strict controls on numbers and proactive area interventions do correlate with fewer visible no-go style problems, although I’ve only really heard of no-go style, like s- no-go neighborhoods in Sweden. Sweden’s just so screwed by that. And then there are also similar over-representation patterns in the Netherlands.Like some CBS data found that second generation both foreign parents people were committing crimes at 4.7 times the native suspect rate, which was highest among Moroccan and Caribbean and Somali origins. So again, non-Western, per Denmark’s qualifications, and same in, in Germany and France. But anyway, the, there is a reduced number of high crime convictions in Denmark and there are [00:37:00] fewer dangerous areas.And, and as I said earlier, they reduced the number of areas that even met their criteria for ghettos, AKA parallel societies, since 2018. So that’s huge. Also, there’s a lower strain on their social services than in other countries. So there are definitely gaps between their immigrants and their native citizens but it’s not as bad as places in like Germany or France or Sweden, for example, where they were just way more generous.I- in terms of their sort of fiscal situation, multiple register-based studies have found a large negative net fiscal impact for non-Western immigrants and descendants due to their lower employment and their higher benefits. And here’s the crazy thing. Again, another reason why I feel like Denmark is super justified, Western immigrants are positive or neutral.So I don’t know. I feel like- [00:38:00] Maybe we should just make a rule that you... I Rob, we’ve discussed this actually that if you’re a net taxpayer i- if you’re a net positive fiscally to your country, then you can stay. And if you’re not, then you, you either get deported or at least you lose the right to vote.You have to lose the right to vote if you are not a net payer into the system. I think that should just be the case whether you’re an immigrant or immigrant descendant or not. But they have definitely, here’s another really big thing, addressed the concentrated costs that are associated with problem areas by gentrifying them forcefully, which is pretty meaningful.A- and which has reduced this, like, pressure that you’ll see on Germany and France where they have these areas that are just incredibly expensive to try to remediate. I mean, that program that I described earlier- Mm ... that we’re hopefully gonna learn more about from one of our guests sounds incredibly expensive and, and just ridiculous.So basically, Denmark is doing better off. There are countries that are stricter around the world, but [00:39:00] Denmark is doing its best to help, and I feel like we can learn a lot from it. And this has moderated somewhat my view of how to manage immigration. Because remember, originally we were like, “Okay, you can choose one thing, generous social services or open borders.”But then we realized that if you have open borders but no social services, eventually it’ll get to a point where there are so many immigrants that they’ll just vote generous social services in. So then I was like, “Well, then screw that. We can’t have open borders.” But maybe, maybe based on this, one, I’m, like, a really big fan of identifying areas that are Really not doing well, and just, just changing them forcefully.Being like, “No, you’re not allowed to turn into a slum. We’re not doing this. We’re not gonna provide social housing here anymore. We’re going to reduce the percentage because we can’t have this become this, this hole in the larger area.” And, and I [00:40:00] do think that everyone benefits. If you’re in social housing, you don’t wanna be concentrated in a ghetto.Like your mom always said with purchasing houses, like you wanna be in the worst house in a nice neighborhood. Like, that’s how you know you’re in a good, you’re in a good investment. So I also think the general policy, like if you care about vulnerable people and asylum seekers and migrants, you want them to be integrated into good communities with low crime and people who are doing well, because then they’re more likely to themselves do well.Like everything rubs off, right? Depression rubs off among friends. Being fat is, is contagious in a way. Like you’re more likely to be overweight if you have a lot of overweight friends, and I think it’s the same thing with this kind of thing. So I think it’s really good policy, and it, it sort of shapes how I view bad neighborhoods going forward.I love that Denmark’s doing it, and I hope the EU’s not able to stop them, and that’s all I have to say.Malcolm Collins: All right. Well, I love it, and if they, if they do try, it’s revolution time. You gotta go Army Hammer on these people. The- [00:41:00] ReleaseSimone Collins: the hammer. Yes ... yeah,Malcolm Collins: the Army Hammer solution, turn them all into food.Turn...Simone Collins: Eat them. Right. Right. I guess, yeah, what, who... There was that UK politician who was, he wanted to fill the potholes with them. But why do that when you can just turn them into Soylent Green? It’s fine. Yeah. Mm-hmm.Malcolm Collins: That’s the, the, the, the truly Western solution. I mean, if you look at the way Northern Europeans used to actSimone Collins: OhMalcolm Collins: during like the Roman period and stuff like thatSimone Collins: for- Well, the Romans saw them as like noble savages, though. I think they kind of appreciated the the raw animalism of,Malcolm Collins: They did though, they did though. They did see them as like noble and ethical w- w- in contrast with like how they saw the Greeks or the Persians or the,Simone Collins: Yeah, like the Greeks were the source of all their culture, but they were these effete, lazy people, whereas like the Germans were, they were animals, they were stupid.But like they fought hard, so that’s nice.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I mean y- you, you could look at our episode on the history of racism to learn how to be a better- the get a, get a PhD in racism- Yes, yes one does ... to, to learn how to be [00:42:00] racist like a Roman.Simone Collins: Like-Oh, gosh. Go, what was it? Go worship your horse god? No, donkey god.Donkey god. Go worship your donkey god, Antonitus or whatever it was.Malcolm Collins: Antonitus.Simone Collins: It was great, yeah. Nerd. Go worship him. That’s, that, that is all that is left of one man for all of human history is someone making fun of him saying, “Go worship your donkey god.” For being aMalcolm Collins: Christian.Simone Collins: Yeah.Malcolm Collins: SoSimone Collins: yeah.Malcolm Collins: So most people today are sympathetic to the person being made fun of.Simone Collins: I don’t know. I look at the picture and I think it’s funny and I laugh at him, but it’s okay. Okay.Yeah. You think they did a good job with the graffiti?I do, man. Like there were, you saw some of the, the, even the non-racist drawings I pulled up, they’re just like, they’re just funny, and also animation has not changed at all among g- teens with a sense of humor, which- I find great comfort in that, Malcolm.I do.Malcolm Collins: Mm.Simone Collins: Yeah, Invader Zim actually [00:43:00] is a high culture hat tip to historical medieval cartooning, so...Malcolm Collins: You know, the, the animation style we’re talking about there. Anyway this is very heartening news. Mm-hmm ... and we will continue. We need, like, double ICE. Whatever ICE is, is... Recently somebody tried to run ICE over again and got shot, and, like, the, did they not l- l- like, are they shocked that it’s still illegal to try to run over a law officer?Like, like, the, the, the, the, the likely response of a law officer to you trying to run them over is to shoot you in the face, because that should be the response that law officers have. But this is the first time that an ICE officer has shot a migrant.Simone Collins: Oh, because this wasn’t a protester, it was an actual...It was a migrant ...Malcolm Collins: yeah, who was here legally as well, so, like, shouldn’t have even tried to escape being an idiot. But yeah, that was a migrant this time. I, up until now- ButSimone Collins: were they targeted in an arrest, or were they trying to stop the ICE official from-Malcolm Collins: They were trying to just get away. They didn’t wanna be pulled over, I guess.Simone Collins: Oh, [00:44:00] okay.Malcolm Collins: So, yeah. Th- this, this this is the first time I’m aware of. All the other migrants who have been shot were actually shot by protesters by leftists. And all of the non-migrants who were shot were shot by ICE, Right ... re- because the, the, the last lady who got shot, she was not a protester.I mean, she was a protester, but, like, a white lady. And then the, the people who were shot outside the detention center who people at first pretended were right-wing extremists, and then that story just completely got covered up when everybody found out it was left-wing extremists trying to shoot ICE but missed them and shot a bunch of immigrants because they are idiots.And that’s what we should expect from them. But yeah, we need way more of whatever ICE is doing. Like, way more aggressive, way more aggressive. I think shut down the CIA, shut down the FBI, make super ICE.Simone Collins: Super ICE.Malcolm Collins: Super ICE.Simone Collins: What, what would that be? What is that really cold, dangerous frozen gas?We need,Malcolm Collins: Nitrogen?Simone Collins: We need... Yeah, we don’t need ICE. Liquid nitrogen? We need, we need liquid nitrogen asMalcolm Collins: the super cold- No, but I justSimone Collins: thinkMalcolm Collins: super ICE sounds cool. I [00:45:00] think,Simone Collins: Super ICE ...Malcolm Collins: it would really freak out leftists if we were like, “We’re gonna doSimone Collins: super ICE.”Malcolm Collins: Not nitro? Come on. Nitro? Okay, that’s pretty cool.Simone Collins: Yeah. I like it. Nitro. They’re bringing in nitro. Yeah, you gotta, you gotta up your- All right, love you, Simone. I love you too. Hmm. One thing I, I did hear about data centers that I hadn’t heard before that’s in their favor, and I’m like, “Oh my gosh, I want a data s- data center near us,” is that in one county in Virginia, that I’d heard of before too, they have received so much income, tax income from data centers, they were able to reduce property taxes down to a third of what they were previously, which is amazing.Malcolm Collins: Everyone’s like, “You don’t want data centers in your neighborhood.” I mean, I ... If we’re able to do that, I j- I certainly do.Simone Collins: For real, yeah, and I’ve actually seen in, in local Facebook groups all these people trying to organize anti data center protests, whereas in our area actually we have uniquely high property [00:46:00] taxes.And I feel like if someone just mentioned just once to these people, “By the way, your property taxes would go down,” they would come out in droves. They would, they would drive over the protesters with their cars. They would do anything they could. I wish someone would spread that message, but of course, as we’ve gone over, there’s a lot of people, like, laundering money through the NAACP and through all these environmental nonprofits to try to fund anti data center protests and organizing and movements, so it’s not gonna happen.But still, I was so envious when I heard that. Please. They are considering data centers in our area, though, and hopefully Nothing will stop them. We’ll see.Malcolm Collins: I’m trying to get Chud Tech working live.Simone Collins: Oh, you already built some- what did youMalcolm Collins: build? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s live on the website, it’s just not populated yet because I built all the things for it locally.For people who don’t know, I’m creating a listing of [00:47:00] all of the best AI like, right-wing well, really any- anything that’s made with AI. All the best AI movies, all the best AI videos, all the best hacked together products by, like, average jack offs like me and Leaflet and stuff like that. Mostly because I keep finding small ones that I was unaware of that are really good, and I’m just like, “Why isn’t this bigger?”An example of one that’s up there right now is I found that somebody had taken a manhwa, you know, one of those, like, online comics about a human- Oh, you showed me this lastSimone Collins: night. It’s so amazing ...Malcolm Collins: who ends up in a furry world, right? And they turned it into a, a full movie that is... I- how would you rate the quality of it compared to anime?Simone Collins: It’s as good as any mid-tier, like, not a Naruto filler episode, but just a Nar- a normal Naruto episode, where, like, the plot actually moves forward. It was that level of good. I, I started watching it as a joke, and then I just watched the whole freaking thing. So you were like, “Well, check it out. You should see what it’s like.”If you want to see it, go to [00:48:00] rfab.ai and then look for ChudTech. It’s one of the top choices, also we invented a system that I just put live. It’s super alpha right now, but it rigs up the models that you can create with the leaflet system so that AI can puppet them, , to create like fully puppeted characters, , that you can even do your own streams withSimone Collins: And I’m like, “Oh, let’s see how the quality is.” Yeah. And then I got invested in it and I watched the whole episode. And he’s making-Malcolm Collins: ButSimone Collins: the guy- I think the second episode’s out already.Malcolm Collins: It is?Simone Collins: I think so.Malcolm Collins: Yeah, so the guy who made this his channel has 5,000 subscribers. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, nothing. Yeah. It came out of nowhereand this shouldn’t be the case. This is incredibly high quality stuff that’s being made here.Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. Well, it’s niche. This, this com- this, this manhwa about-Malcolm Collins: Furries aren’t niche. Come on. Furries and anime? Like, do you know who our audience is? One of the top voted comments under the video where we announced the Leaflet [00:49:00] device- YeahSomebody said, “If you made this for fur suits it would break the US economy,” and that was the top voted comment. That’s our audience, Simone, okay?Simone Collins: Yeah. Well...Malcolm Collins: The, the, the, the Chud world is a world of deviance, all right? The, the, theOh my goshSimone Collins: Look, per that mala, is it so deviant to just love furries? I don’t know. Love is love, Malcolm. Don’t judge.Malcolm Collins: No, no, no. You should not love animals. Furries are okay, actually. I’m, I’m totally chill with furries.Simone Collins: Yeah. What, you... Everyone loves cat girls. Like, don’t even. Yeah. I,Malcolm Collins: I- Everyone loves fox girlsI believe that the people who are like, “I don’t find any of this hot at all,” are f*****g lying. They’re lying. I, I, I, I, I cannot believe that you can see what, what are like clearly sexualized images that your brain is gonna process as a human and think, “Oh, that’s...” Like, that’s not gonna activate that section of your brain.[00:50:00]Simone Collins: Mm. Yeah. Yeah.Malcolm Collins: I, I mean, that doesn’t mean that it’s like your preferred thing. But for the people where it’s like their top preferred thing, I mean, I guess I can see why that would be weird. But I mean, it really depends on how down the furry spectrum you are, where it’s like, well, is it just cat girls or, yeah, are we- This is actually one of the, the core problems with AI.Simone Collins: Mm.Malcolm Collins: Is if I ever try to make furry art with AI- Okay ... it always makes them way, way too animal-like. Like the default training knowledge- Oh,Simone Collins: no, I so agree with you. I’ve been so frustrated with this when I’m trying to make ads for furries on Reddit to go to RFAB, and then it just makes a freaking cat.And I said, “No,” I said, “An anthropomorphic cat,” and it just draws a freaking cat, and I don’t want a cat. I want, I want a- You want an anthropomorphic catMalcolm Collins: sexy woman who has cat ears and some fur on her body. Yeah. By the, by the way, the way you get around that is you do not write anthro. You- Like, AI can’t handle anthro. It does it way too furry. So what do you say? What do you say? You just like sexy woman [00:51:00] with cat ears and tail.Simone Collins: Oh, okay. Well, but th- then you don’t get the furry look.Like, furries have snouts, for example. So-Malcolm Collins: Well, then you can, you can describe and whiskersSimone Collins: And we’ll see. Look, I’ve, I’ve tried. I’ve, I, and I’ve gotten some good results, as you saw, which Reddit just then summarily bans because-Malcolm Collins: Furries are inherently sexual, I guess ...Simone Collins: a- and, and threatening to people’s wellbeing.Yeah. A- and here’s the annoying part, is they will accept the, the, the, the non-successful AI attempts at furries. So there’s a Reddit ad floating around now of a non-anthropomorphic dog running toward a Chinook helicopter speaking Japanese- ... because that’s what Reddit’s accepting. They won’t accept my sexy dog woman walking down a hallway bashing out lights with a baseball bat, because apparently that’s [00:52:00] life-threatening, too.No, it has to be a rescue dog that speaks Japanese and runs in the rain. Whatever. Anyway, I’m not gonna get into it. I’m very triggered. It’ll accept mermaids. Anyway. One of the more successful ones is the viewer... This is just to general men who are into, like, AI. The viewer, like, coming to in a room full of wizards.And like, one of the wizards is like are you okay?” And then that’s, like, that’s what’s doing well. I don’t- I don’t get it. All right, you ready? Need aMalcolm Collins: five-second break? Two seconds actually. Just, just two seconds ‘cause I have to get this started.Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.Always working You will never give up. You will never surrenderWhoa. Okay. Oh, they look so good. Here you go, Mom. Oh, thank you, Octavian. Here you go. They’re so pretty. This one’s the biggest. Yeah, the biggest. Wow. Oh, nom, nom, nom, nom, nom. I want open the gummy. Okay, Andy. Uh-huh, here we go [00:53:00] Wow. Is this your favorite food in the whole world? In the whole world. In the whole world.In the whole world. Let’s go to Steak and Bone now This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe