Join us today on Based Camp for deep discussion on recent high-profile cases involving women convicted of serious crimes, including the execution of Christa Pike in Tennessee and ongoing legal efforts in the Lindsay Clancy case. Our conversation examines patterns in homicide data, challenges in the current justice system, and proposals for more effective approaches to crime and punishment.

We hash out gender differences in victim relationships, systemic issues with appeals and sentencing, and forward-looking ideas for penal reform such as specialized colonies and future technology-assisted solutions. After going a bit deeper into Christina Pike’s crime and punishment, we debate deterrence, incapacitation, and the need for accountability while considering societal stability.

Broadly speaking, we think conversations about justice today could shape better systems amid rapid social change—we need more of them and hope you’re talking about how society could do better, too!

Show Notes

Worrying Data

An FBI-data study covering 1976–1987 found that 60% of women’s homicide victims were a spouse, intimate acquaintance, or family member, while 80% of men’s victims were non-intimate acquaintances, strangers, or of undetermined relationship.

* The study excluded victims under 15, so it is not a measure of child killings, though for young children specifically, a 2023 US Department of Justice report estimates that 76.2% of homicide victims age 11 or younger were killed by an “other family member,”

* Though it does not tell us from that figure whether the offender was a mother, father, or another relative

The Latest Moves of Lindsey Clancy’s Lawyer

In the original trial, At the defense’s position was effectively: she caused the deaths, but psychosis meant she was not criminally responsible.

Kevin Reddington’s new argument is that prosecutors did not present legally sufficient evidence that Lindsay Clancy killed her three children.

At the September 29 hearing, Reddington sought a required finding of not guilty: a ruling that the trial evidence was insufficient to permit a rational jury to convict. “Where is the evidence that she did this?” he asked. “Where is the admission? Where does she say that she did this?” He attacked the investigation and the physical evidence, including DNA and fingerprint work, and argued that statements attributed to Clancy after she awoke in hospital were not proof of a confession: she had been told what happened and said she could not remember it. He also continued to argue that prosecutors had failed to disprove her lack-of-criminal-responsibility defense.

“No admission” is narrower than “no evidence.” Prosecutor Shanan Buckingham responded that the record contains extensive evidence, citing DNA on the exercise bands found around the children’s necks and testimony from a hospital chaplain about what Clancy said. The judge had not ruled on Reddington’s motion as of the hearing, and the district attorney had not decided whether to retry the case.

He’s basically parroting Lindsey Clancy’s online support mob: CNN quoted one TikTok user saying, “I do not believe that Lindsay Clancy committed these crimes. I fully believe that Patrick convinced her that she did.”

* His criticism of the investigation also overlaps with online skepticism about the case.

It’s obviously his job to defend Lindsey Clancy but his arguments are part of a larger worrying trend and I’m also worried that many female murderers just aren’t getting caught.

SIDE NOTE: People are now using the word “Clancying” about fathers they perceive to not be helping out enough. E.g. “He is Clancying” about a man recently found to be sitting while his wife, carrying a toddler, brought food to their seats at a sports game and was filmed by the commentators doing so.

The Crimes of Christa Pike

Background

Christa Gail Pike (born March 10, 1976) was convicted of the January 12, 1995 torture-murder of 19-year-old Colleen Slemmer in Knoxville, Tennessee.

Motive & Setup

Per court records, Pike told others she was jealous of Slemmer and believed Slemmer was interested in Shipp.

* The day before the killing she told classmate Kim Iloilo she intended to kill Slemmer because she “had just felt mean that day.”

* She later claimed she only meant to scare or fight her and that it “got out of control.” The jury rejected that and found premeditation.

* On the evening of January 12, Pike, Shipp, Peterson, and Slemmer signed out of the dorm.

* Pike lured Slemmer with a story of making peace and smoking marijuana, after first talking about going to a Blockbuster.

* She brought a box cutter and a miniature meat cleaver she had borrowed.

* They walked to a wooded area behind an abandoned steam plant on the University of Tennessee agricultural campus (near Tyson Park).

The Murder

1:2012cv00035/63099/93/">Court records, Pike’s recorded confession, and the autopsy describe an attack lasting about 30 minutes to an hour.

What happened:

* Pike accused Slemmer of pursuing Shipp, then kneed her in the head, threw her down, and kicked her repeatedly, including in the face and side.

* Slemmer’s upper clothing was removed so she could not easily run. She was left in her bra.

* When Slemmer tried to flee, Shipp caught her and threw her back down. Pike and Shipp held her until she stopped struggling, then dragged her to another spot.

* Pike cut Slemmer’s stomach and back with the box cutter and meat cleaver.

* Pike used her own hairband as a gag.

* A pentagram (five-pointed star in a circle) was carved into Slemmer’s chest

* Accounts also describe one on the forehead.

* Shipp later testified under oath that he carved the chest pentagram.

* Some involved later described the carving as a “trapdoor to release the soul to Satan.”

* Shipp was into Satanic imagery; Pike later said she was not.

* Pike left briefly to check that no one was nearby. When she came back, Slemmer was still talking and begging.

* Pike cut her throat repeatedly—she later told a classmate she cut the throat six times—because Slemmer “continued to talk.”

* Pike yelled at her to shut up.

* Pike later said that while Slemmer was barely conscious she asked, “Colleen, do you know who’s doing this to you?”

* Slemmer tried to run again.

* Pike threw/smashed a large piece of asphalt into her head. When it broke, she threw the smaller pieces as well. Shipp also struck her in the head with a rock, per Pike’s statement.

* 1:2012cv00035/63099/93/">Pike plucked a fragment of skull from the wound and put it in her jacket as a souvenir.

Cause of death: 1:2012cv00035/63099/93/">Medical examiner Dr. Sandra Elkins testified that death was from blunt-force injuries to the head, with a minimum of four blows (two to the left side, one over the right eye, one in the nose area), extensive skull fractures, and asphalt particles in the skull. The body also had slashing wounds to face, back, arms, abdomen, and throat (including a roughly six-inch gaping neck wound), plus defensive wounds and knee bruises consistent with crawling. The body was found semi-nude the next morning by UT grounds workers.

Pike later said Slemmer “wouldn’t die,” was breathing blood, and her body jerked. They dragged her toward bushes and left.

The Bragging

The night of the murder or shortly after, Pike went to a friend’s room, showed her the piece of skull, and described cutting Slemmer’s throat six times, beating her, using the meat cleaver on her back and the box cutter on her throat, throwing asphalt at her head, and carving pentagrams.

She said Slemmer begged them to stop but she did not stop because Slemmer kept talking.

Iloilo said Pike was dancing in a circle, smiling, and singing “la, la, la” while telling it. Other Job Corps students also said she showed off the bone. She was arrested within 36 hours and she confessed to police soon after arrest.

Continued Wrongdoing in Prison

After she went to prison, she continued to do bad things.

Pike spent most of her sentence as Tennessee’s only woman on death row, for years in conditions her lawyers described as effective solitary (22–24 hours a day in a small cell).

August 24, 2001 — attempted murder of inmate Patricia Jones

In one isolated instance in which she was allowed around other women, she came up behind one (while she was arguing with a third inmate) and choked her unconscious with a shoe lace, later telling her mother on a recorded call that she “wrapped that shoe string around of her and tried to choke the damn life out of her,” describing Jones passed out, twitching, foaming at the mouth, eyes bulging. To an investigator she said she didn’t necessarily intend to kill her but “didn’t care if she died.”

The details

* After a fire at the Tennessee Prison for Women, Pike, Natasha Cornett, and Patricia Jones were put in the same recreation cage.

* Jones and Cornett argued; Cornett swung and missed.

* Pike came up behind Jones and choked her unconscious with a heavy boot/shoe lace.

* Jones weighed about 217 pounds.

* Officers intervened; Jones lived.

* Pike later told her mother on a recorded call she “wrapped that shoe string around of her and tried to choke the damn life out of her,” describing Jones passed out, twitching, foaming at the mouth, eyes bulging.

* To an investigator she said she didn’t necessarily intend to kill her but “didn’t care if she died.”

* In 2003/2004 she was convicted of attempted first-degree murder and given 25 years. Her lawyers later argued she was defending Cornett from a known bully; Jones had a violent prison history and later said Pike had previously stopped her from attacking other inmates. The state treated it as a premeditated attempt. Cornett was not charged.

2012 escape plot

Pike also was involved in a 2012 escape plot involving a personal trainer with whom she started to correspond, who bribed a correctional officer before getting caught.

* Personal trainer Donald Kohut of New Jersey corresponded with and visited Pike.

* He enlisted correctional officer Justin Heflin.

* The plan included tracing and copying a prison key

* Heflin was allegedly bribed with cash and gifts (including a guitar and a canoe he sold).

* TBI said the breakout was not imminent

* Kohut was charged with bribery and conspiracy to commit escape; Heflin with bribery, official misconduct, and conspiracy.

* Heflin was fired.

* Pike was not separately convicted on a new escape count in the material above; the plot was foiled.

* A 2024 settlement expanded out-of-cell time and contact with other women.

The Effort to Defend Her

Pike’s conviction and death sentence were affirmed on direct appeal, state post-conviction, and federal habeas (Sixth Circuit, cert denied). The Tennessee Supreme Court set the September 30, 2026 date.

Last-week/last-day efforts failed: Tennessee Supreme Court denied a stay; Gov. Lee denied clemency September 28; U.S. Supreme Court denied cert and a stay September 29.

The resistance to her execution was considerable.

Arguments made by her lawyers, experts, Amnesty, UN human-rights specialists, and more than 100 women’s/advocacy groups included:

* Age / developing brain.

* They argued she was 18 years and about 10 months old. Roper v. Simmons bars death for crimes under 18.

* Counsel argued there is no meaningful brain-development difference between 17 and 18, that she is the only person Tennessee would execute in the modern era for an 18-year-old’s crime, and that the other seven Tennessee defendants sentenced to death for crimes at 18 (all men) later had those sentences vacated.

* Average age at crime among those Tennessee has executed is about 29; the youngest previously executed was 23. Shipp, equally involved and 17, got life with parole. Peterson walked with probation. They also say prosecutors once offered life without parole for a plea and trial counsel did not take it.

* Childhood abuse and mental illness never fully put before the jury.

* Clemency materials describe heavy maternal drinking during pregnancy, neglect, physical and sexual abuse beginning in early childhood, rapes at about 11 and 17 (the later one almost exactly a year before the murder), untreated bipolar disorder and PTSD, and possible brain damage.

* Penalty-phase presentation was short; later lawyers say the jury never heard the mitigation that is now standard.

* Diagnoses in prison included bipolar disorder and PTSD.

* Rehabilitation and changed person.

* Petition described a 50-year-old woman on treatment, remorseful, useful to other inmates, no longer the 18-year-old who committed the crime.

* “Christa can still be useful.”

* Method-of-execution / Eighth Amendment.

* Claims that lethal injection would cause needless suffering because of small veins and thrombocytosis, and—more distinctively—that being extracted, held down (especially by men), and restrained would reenact her rapes and cause severe psychological terror.

* Trauma experts filed an amicus brief on re-traumatization.

* She asked for an all-female extraction team; the state said it would try to use female staff for transfer but did not guarantee the full protocol.

* Courts found she had not shown the protocol was sure or very likely to cause serious needless suffering.

* A related claim challenged Tennessee Supreme Court Rule 12(4)(E) as cutting off a proper method-of-execution challenge. SCOTUS did not take the case.

* Conditions and isolation.

* Long-term isolation as the only woman on death row was used as context for later conduct and as a reason for mercy, not as a standalone bar to execution after the 2024 settlement.

The state’s and victim-family position has been consistent: the torture was prolonged and voluntary, Pike bragged and kept a trophy, she later tried to kill another inmate, and Slemmer’s mother has said she wants the sentence carried out so her daughter “finally can be resting.” Lee’s denial statement did not explain his reasoning beyond a “thorough review.”

The way Pike’s entire life played out is an extreme tragedy and I think we should all be thinking about what we can do better.

* Has been sitting on death year for around 30 years

* She asked for an all-female execution team

* She denied her last meal (though to be fair it couldn’t be more than $20)

What Should be Done

I am heavily influenced by Scott Alexander’s “Prison And Crime: Much More Than You Wanted To Know”, published November 27, 2024. Looking at the extant research, he compared deterrence—discouraging crime through the threat of punishment—with incapacitation—preventing someone from committing crimes in the community while they’re imprisoned.

* Per his analysis, the best practical way to reduce crime is to make offenders more likely to be caught, chiefly through effective policing, rather than simply making prison sentences longer.

* He concludes that longer sentences have relatively small deterrent effects

* Also, separately, there’s not much evidence suggesting even the death penalty is a strong deterrent

* The National Institute of Justice says there is no proof that the death penalty deters crime, and cites a National Academies review finding the research uninformative about whether it increases, decreases, or has no effect on homicide.

* Though death as a means of removal could be, in a more efficient justice system, more cost effective and efficient

* HOWEVER, prison does prevent crimes while people are confined

* He just concludes (quite fairly) that expanding incarceration is costly and has diminishing returns.

* So basically, removing offenders forever would be the MOST effective, but he sees that as too costly, so he sees the risk of being caught as a better deterrent

How Can We Be Better at Catching and Punishing Crime?

The Privacy Problem

* How do we balance reasonable expectations of privacy with people’s use of that privacy to commit atrocities?

* Could AGI just protect us from ourselves?

The Removal Issue

* How can we compassionately remove people who are ruining society?

* Pleasure tubes? The Matrix?

The Sustainability Issue

* How do we make the justice system more efficient?

* In the USA, death penalty cases cost taxpayers more

* Per a Maryland, Urban Institute study published in 2008, the difference is about $1.9 million

* Death penalty case cost: About $3 million when the case resulted in a death sentence

* Comparable case without death penalty costs: About $1.1 million when prosecutors did not seek death

* Per a Washington, Seattle University study published in 2015, the difference is $1.06 million, in 2010 dollars

* Death penalty case cost: $3.07 million when prosecutors sought death

* Comparable case without death penalty costs: $2.01 million when prosecutors did not seek death

* The Maryland study also found that cases where prosecutors sought death but did not obtain a death sentence cost about $1.8 million—roughly $700,000 more than comparable cases where they did not seek it. So the extra cost starts with pursuing the penalty, not with carrying out an execution.

* Why it costs more (per ballotpedia)

* The trial takes more work. Capital cases require more extensive investigation, lawyers, experts, motions, jury selection, and a separate sentencing phase.

* Review can continue for years. Appeals and sometimes retrials add legal and court costs while the person remains incarcerated. Those safeguards matter because an execution cannot be undone.

* Confinement may cost more. Some states use separate, higher-security housing for people sentenced to death, though this varies; South Dakota, for example, reported no additional housing expense in the comparison Ballotpedia examined.

* Seeking death does not guarantee an execution. A case can incur the added trial costs and still end in a life sentence, as the Maryland figures illustrate.

What would I do?

* Today

* Create a penal colony

* Send people above a certain crime threshold to the colony after sterilizing them (because kids should obviously not be subjected to such a place)

* Make the penal colony self-governing

* People can form their own justice systems and when bad actors choose to make this second-chance society bad, they can deal with whatever justice their compatriots deem appropriate

* In the near future, when it’s technologically feasible

* Give everyone a pleasure pod option (i.e. an isolated but very pleasant existence where they can live out life in a virtual world)

* Make the pleasure pod not optional for anyone who meets certain crime thresholds

Episode Transcript

Simone Collins:Hello, Malcolm. I’m very excited to be speaking with you today because recently, a woman was executed in Tennessee. She is the first woman in the state to be executed in over two hundred years and the first person in Tennessee, who’s been executed in the modern era for a crime committed at age 18. So this only happened after her defenders went all the way to the Supreme Court to try to help this process. and, you know, to be someone so singular, to be getting the death penalty as a woman is... You know you’ve done something wrong. We’ll get into it

Speaker 5:You guys are gonna love this. She survived after two attempts. It appears they didn’t hit her veins because medical staff are not allowed to do this. So if somebody was out enough medical training who was working on it, they had failed in the same way with another execution, recently in the same area.

Speaker 9:This doesn’t mean she gets out of her execution, but you guys know how this works.

Simone Collins:. But meanwhile, Lindsay Clancy’s lawyer is now trying to claim that there’s insufficient evidence that she even killed her children despite

Malcolm Collins:the situation. Didn’t.

Simone Collins:Everybody said And all the evidence, the DNA evidence as well, it’s kind of unhinged. And I’m like, what’s going on here? Why are people trying to stop the execution of a woman who’s done utterly monstrous things? Why are you trying to claim that a woman who has admitted to murdering her own children that there’s no evidence of it? What are you talking about? As a society, I feel like we’re systematically and openly flubbing justice, just messing it up. And it has me trying to work out how we should actually address crime and punishment, not only because people keep trying to undo punishments slated for women who have committed horrific crimes, men too, obviously, but I’m focusing on the the prominent cases right now. But because we’re entering a period of insane disruption, so it’s an important thing for us to be talking about now because we may be in a position somewhat in the near future to actually rethink justice systems. So conversations that get started now could result in some kind of change. We should be discussing this. and I do also have this low grade deep fear that women lie at the heart of a larger problem, which is one, criminals not being caught, and two, dangerous people not being dealt with effectively. and there’s also this deeper, more scared part of me that after you did your episode on women killing children, that women are just getting away with a ton of crimes, primarily because the people that women kill are people in their family and probably children. And they’re just like, I don’t know what happened. Like, you know, they... They’re they’re able much more easily than men killing strangers to ex... Just explain it away as an accident, if you know what I mean. And I looked at this this one FBI data study covering 1976 to 1987 that found sixty percent of women’s homicide victims were a spouse, intimate partner, acquaintance, or family member. While eighty percent of men’s victims were nonintimate acquaintances, strangers, or under... Undetermined relationship kind of people. We’re like, it’s not clear if they knew each other or not. So the vast majority of people men are killing kinda don’t really know them well. The vast majority of women... Of of people that are... Women are caught killing, emphasis on the caught part. People they know extremely well. And what made me disturbed is this study excluded victims 15. So it’s not a measure of child killings. I know. Why?

Malcolm Collins:Which women do disproportionately when you’re talking about her drinking.

Simone Collins:And so I’m like, hold on. Also, why are you, like, specifically, like, la la la la la la We’re not looking at this, like, what area?

Malcolm Collins:Places where you know the numbers would be the the biggest. I know.

Simone Collins:And it makes me very, very, very uncomfortable. And so... Okay. Well well, the study excluded victims 15. It’s not a measure of child killings, but, young children, specifically, if we’re looking at them, there’s this twenty twenty three Department of Justice report that estimates that seventy six point two percent of homicide victims age 11 or younger were killed by an other family member. But then this study also doesn’t tell us who that other family member is. They just categorized as family member. And so I feel like there’s this systematic covering up of the fact that, no. This is women. Because I don’t I don’t know why they’re doing it. But, anyway, this is just... Like, this

Malcolm Collins:kind of know why anthropologists are trying to hide how horrible women are. You don’t know? I could I could give you a guess.

Simone Collins:Well, these are criminologists as well. Why? Why?

Malcolm Collins:These fields are overwhelmingly female and woke.

Simone Collins:So you think that they’re just trying to hide this all? Of course.

Malcolm Collins:Look at the Lindsay Kansi trial. These women who attempted to get her off for this were so incredibly proud of what they had done. Going on all of these shows with absolute infinity, trying to talk to the jurors. You know, they go on Oprah, and they expected no one in the crowd to be like, what were you thinking, you psychopath? Like I know.

Simone Collins:They were so smug. And I don’t know if you saw the the the the juror who held out recently came out and made a video and started it off with exactly the right thing to be like, look. I’m not just talking for myself, or I wasn’t just representing my own views. I... We need to talk about the three, as he put it, angels Yeah. Who were victimized here. Why was nobody talking about that?

Malcolm Collins:Was a Catholic, by the way. Good on him.

Simone Collins:And he did he did mention his Catholic faith as well. And what a what a guy. Like, hero of the year, in my opinion. I I really am well... Okay. And, also, like, there’s a lot of other heroes. We talk about them frequently, but he’s absolutely up there for someone who stands by his values, and I really, really appreciate that. But, yeah, it it... I guess you’re right. And let’s let’s... I guess, let’s start then with the... What’s going on with Lindsay Clancy’s lawyer because it is... I think it’s one element of this this problem.

Malcolm Collins:It’s so weird to me. It’s like he thinks he’s arguing on the Internet, and maybe he is. Maybe that’s what the court is these days.

Simone Collins:It could be because when you look at the women who are on the jury, they kind of were in that place. They’d already made their own conclusions there. In the original trial, to be clear, at the defense’s position was... It was effectively she caused the deaths, but psychosis meant she was not criminally responsible. That was their key legal argument. But now her lawyer, Kevin Reddington, is is arguing that prosecutors did not present legally sufficient evidence that Lindsey Clancy killed her three children. And that just, well, as of recording, so yesterday, he he sought a required finding of not guilty, a ruling that the trial evidence was insufficient to permit rational journey to... Sorry. A rational jury to convict. He said, where is the evidence that she did this, and where is the admission? Where where does she say that she did this?

Malcolm Collins:Didn’t she describe how she did it and the timeline in detail?

Simone Collins:Like At the hospital. I believed so. he... But he attacked the investigation and the physical evidence, including DNA and fingerprint work, and argued that statements attributed to to Clancy attributed to Clancy. Attributed. Others just

Malcolm Collins:made it up.

Simone Collins:Someone said this, and people said that Lindsay Clancy said it. After she awoke in a hospital, we’re not proof of a confession. He argues that she had been told what happened and that said she could not remember it. He also continued to argue that the prosecutors had failed to disprove her lack of criminal responsibility defense. So it’s... He’s basically parroting Lindsay Clancy’s online support mob. The argument that Lindsay, before Clancy, had not done it was was

Malcolm Collins:To pretend that she... I mean, I think this is a terrible move on his part because it’s it’s... Now you have to convince... I can... If I’m going to a jury. Right? Yeah. And I’m trying to be like, look at this mother. Look at how sad she must be. Like, nobody does this out of the blue. Blah blah blah blah blah. Clearly, she was completely mentally out of her mind at that moment. That’s something I can sell. That is harder to sell when you’re then lying about not remembering doing it.

Simone Collins:Yeah. I think he needs... He would just need to... He needs to try with the original somewhat plausible argument with a different jury. Though Yeah. Goodness, it’s gonna be difficult to find a a jury. Well, I guess he’s actually in luck after this, you know, finding a jury that’s all about her and all about that Oh, I’m

Malcolm Collins:gonna get famous for getting off the killer or the

Simone Collins:You know that. And... Look. But, like, it’s it’s... What’s really disturbing to me is I feel like there’s a bit of a gaslighting echo chamber, perhaps the same one that caused all these researchers to be like, la la la. I’m not gonna look exactly where women are murdering people and not talk about it. And I feel like that’s... Similar dynamic, some similar dark magic is happening here because he’s seeing the online argument being made, and now he’s going forward and making it and, like, sort of trying to commit it to reality. And he... He’s using the exact arguments. Like, CNN quoted one TikTok user saying, I do not believe that Lindsay Clancy committed these crimes. I fully believe that Patrick convinced her that she did. That was the big theory. Like, they were they were pulling from one of the most famous arguments being made right now, and it’s it’s disturbing. Plus his his criticism of the investigation into the murders parrots everything that was online. It’s like he’s now... He has he has accepted the narrative that people want, and he’s attempting to legally argue it into existence. also, a side note, I don’t know if you’re aware of this, but people are not using the word clancying about fathers that they perceive to not be helping out enough. Did you know this? What? Yeah. So, like, you might say, he is clancying, about... This this happened recently. For example, a man was was recently filmed, like, at at a sports game sitting down as his wife with a toddler in a front carrier brought, like, food to their seats. and people freaked out online commenting, like, like, how dare she be forced to, like, carry a toddler and get food from him at the sports stadium? and then That happened

Malcolm Collins:to us when we were at a a grocery store recently, and you were damn ill.

Simone Collins:Yeah. She could have said to you, he is clancying when I put a gallon of milk in our shopping cart because, god forbid, these spaghetti arms

Malcolm Collins:lift A bottle of milk. Yeah.

Simone Collins:Minuscule pin weight to move. You know she was

Malcolm Collins:a Lindsay Clancy supporter to just... In a in a

Simone Collins:She came across as a Lindsay Clancy supporter. I can’t even

Malcolm Collins:remember what she said. She’s like like, good job helping out or something like that. Like

Simone Collins:Some Karen like remark. Whatever. look. These arms need a workout. Do you see this? Where are they? I can’t. It’s like looking

Malcolm Collins:at I am so glad that women like her are divorced or miserable because you know she doesn’t have a partner or stake in the future.

Simone Collins:Anyway, that that is one element of this. Right? So this is one thing that is weighing on me as I also contemplate the future that could be and the future that we are obligated to make as people who want to inherit the future. Right? We have to build a better justice system. This is what our justice system is doing now. And now I wanna tell you about the crimes of Christa Pike, who is the woman who, as of recording, she just got executed at 10AM this morning. This... But, you know, if you’re watching this recently, she was executed. She is... She... I think she was in her fifties. She was born in 1976 and then convicted 01/12/1995 for the torture murder of ‘19 year old Colleen Slimmer in Knoxville, Tennessee. She has been on death row for thirty years, which is another issue that I have with the justice system.

Malcolm Collins:Yeah. Just kill them.

Simone Collins:I know. I know. Firing squads. So efficient. Per court records, Pike told officers that she was jealous of another girl at this, like, work program that she was in because she believed that that girl was interested in her current boyfriend. The day before she killed this young woman, she told a classmate that... Named Kim Iolio or Yolio that she intended to kill her because she, quote, had just felt mean that day, end quote. Okay. This is the type of person where

Malcolm Collins:This is women.

Simone Collins:Yeah. I... Well This is why women

Malcolm Collins:are so dangerous because they

Simone Collins:Not not all.

Malcolm Collins:Feel mean that day.

Simone Collins:I... Well, yeah. I mean, at least this this young woman. She later claimed that she only meant to scare or fight her, and then it got out of control. But the jury rejected this and found premeditation for the murder. So on the evening of January 12, Pike, this young woman, and then one lookout friend, her boyfriend, and the victim signed out of the dorm. And Pike lured this young woman with her boyfriend with a story of making peace because apparently they had some beef and smoking marijuana and first maybe going to a blockbuster. Like, this is the alleged premise of this all. But she brought a box cutter and a miniature meat cleaver that she had borrowed, and they walked into a wooded area behind an abandoned steam plant on the University of Tennessee I’m turning off sound.

Malcolm Collins:So you could let me know when I can listen again because I don’t wanna

Simone Collins:She’s not a Continue. Continue. Okay. I’m gonna... I’m... Can you hear me? No?

Malcolm Collins:Okay. I’m waiting on you to finish the story.

Simone Collins:He’s gonna have to edit this.

Malcolm Collins:Gonna listen. You finish the story. I do this for you all the time. I don’t wanna listen to this.

Simone Collins:Okay. Fine. Court records, and Pike’s... Sorry. Court records, Pike’s recorded confession, and the autopsy described an attack lasting about thirty minutes to an hour. So what happened is, first, Pike accused this young woman of pursuing her boyfriend and then kneed her in the head, threw her down, and kicked her repeatedly, including in the face and the side. And then her upper clothing was removed so she couldn’t easily run. She was left in her bra. And then when she tried to run, her... The boyfriend caught her and threw her back down. And then Pike and her boyfriend held her until she stopped struggling, and then they dragged her to another spot where then Pike cut her stomach and her back with a box cutter and the meat cleaver, and then she used her own hairband to gag her to to stifle the screams. Then a pentagram was carved into her chest. some people also said this happened to her forehead, but I think her forehead was so far gone by the time they got to her that you couldn’t even maybe see it on autopsy. She later testified... Oh, sorry. The boyfriend later testified under oath that he had carved the chest pentagram. So this isn’t, this is not Pike. This is not the the woman that we’re talking about here. It’s her boyfriend and accomplice. he was into satanic imagery. She said she wasn’t. So that’s a him thing. I’m not gonna get into it. But, anyway, she left briefly to check that no one was nearby. And then when she came back, the boyfriend... Or sorry. The the victim was still talking and begging. So she decided to cut her throat repeatedly. She later told a classmate that she cut the throat six times because she continued to talk, and then she just kept yelling at her to shut up. She later said that while this this woman was barely conscious, she asked, Colleen, do you know who’s doing this to you? She tried to run again. I don’t know how after having her throat slit so many times. But then Pike, again, this this aggressor, threw and smashed a large piece of asphalt into her head. When it broke, she threw smaller pieces as well. And the boyfriend also struck her in the head with a rock, at least per Pike’s statement. And then Pike, this monster of a person, plucked a fragment of the skull from the wound and put it in her jacket as a souvenir. So the medical examiner who was... Found her... I mean, observed her... Examined her the next day testified that the death was from blunt force injuries to the head with a minimum of four blows, and she had extensive skull fractures. Asphalt particles were in her skull. The body also had slashing wounds to her face, her back, her arms, her abdomen, and her throat, including a roughly six inch gaping neck wound, plus lots of defensive wounds and bruising on her knees. and Pike said she, quote, wouldn’t die, was breathing blood, her body jerked, and they dragged her towards the bushes and left. So they didn’t even wait to make sure she was fully dead before leaving. They just, I guess, got bored of her. And then they go back to their dorm. They sign back in. and then Pike goes to a friend’s room, the same friend that she was saying, oh, I just... I feel like I’m just feeling mean today. She showed her a piece of the skull and described cutting Slimmer’s throat six times, beating her using the meat cleaver on her back and the box cutter on her throat, showing... Throwing asphalt at her head and carving pentagrams. And she later, she she said that Slimmer begged them to stop, and she didn’t stop because this victim kept talking. And this friend who heard all this said that Pike was dancing in a circle, smiling and singing la la la while telling it. And then other students also said that she showed off the bone, and she was arrested within thirty six hours and confessed to the police soon after the arrest. Like, there’s very little How did she

Malcolm Collins:not think she’s gonna be caught? I I heard enough of this to be like, you did a murder and then showed it off?

Simone Collins:She appeared to have absolutely no

Malcolm Collins:Concern for consequences?

Simone Collins:Foresight. Yeah. It was just like, I don’t like this woman. I am going to torture and kill her. That was just her thing. Or I I think it was just I’m gonna beat her up first, and then it was like, you know what? This is so fun. She got carried away. But guess what? So she goes to prison. She gets a death sentence. She able to calm down while she’s waiting slowly in prison to die? I mean, they actually... Because some states have death sentences, they they put you in jail differently. she was in a state where if you’re on death row, you are isolated. So she spent most of her time completely isolated in this prison. And then in one of the few instances due to a fire that took place in the prison, she is left alone with two other inmates who are very tough women. She does something insane again. So these women, not her, these women start fighting. They’re just yelling at each other. What does she do? She takes one of the shoelaces off of her boots. She comes up beside... Behind one of the women, and she starts to choke her out. She chokes her unconscious until police guards, I guess, finally see what’s going on and and try to stop her. But, yeah, she... She’s a murder junkie. She told her mother on a recorded call after this happened that she, quote, wrapped that shoestring around her and tried to choke the damn life out of her. She described how she passed out, was twitching, foaming at the mouth, eyes bulging. To an investigator, she said she didn’t necessarily intend to kill her, but, quote, didn’t care if she died, end quote. So there was also

Malcolm Collins:And there’s a women’s organization spending millions of dollars trying to prevent her from getting the death penalty. Yes. So their own worst enemies because the people who she’s torturing are women. The people who she’s killing are women. Women just do not care. They they remind me so much of that study of the bad actors versus good actors. and men watched a person be shocked when they were playing a game, and they felt bad about it. But they watched the person who was cheating being shocked, and they felt good about it. While women felt equally bad for the person who was cheating and the person who wasn’t cheating. Women do not care. They do not care.

Simone Collins:Here’s the thing, though. This... It it takes... Know, men are complicit in this too. With the twenty twelve escape plot she was involved in, there was this personal trainer that was corresponding with her that bribed a guard, and there was this whole plan to get her out. And he was a man. This wasn’t a woman. So, like, it it isn’t just it isn’t just

Malcolm Collins:And you know she would have immediately started killing people if she got out.

Simone Collins:Oh, absolutely. I mean, this this is a woman who’s... Who seems genuinely quite quite dangerous. But

Malcolm Collins:I will say, thank god, she’s been in solitary for, what, thirty years. I can’t imagine the horror of being in solitary for thirty years.

Simone Collins:I... That is... Yeah. It’s a it’s a it’s a pretty intense punishment. In fact... So first, the Tennessee Supreme Court set the September 30 date. That’s today. This was the day she was killed. but they... And there were a ton of last moment efforts. So the Tennessee Supreme Court denied a stay. Governor Lee denied clemency on September 28, and then the US Supreme Court denied a certain stay on September 29. So up to the very last day, people have been trying

Malcolm Collins:to resist your decision. Thinking? Like, what was their logic in doing this?

Simone Collins:Will share the logic. I will share the logic. because these are these are administrated by

Malcolm Collins:Is that it? That she was administrating?

Simone Collins:No. Actually, that isn’t one of the arguments. That’s that’s kind of crazy. So... But these are arguments made by lawyers, experts, amnesty, UN, human rights specialists, and more than 100 women’s advocacy groups. Okay? Over a 100 women’s advocacy groups. 100. Over a 100 women’s groups and

Malcolm Collins:advocacy groups. Some point, likely groups of women, likely well over, decided that women just shouldn’t face punishment.

Simone Collins:Yeah. Even though one of their own was like, I just feel mean today and tortured and killed another woman. I don’t know. Like, again And showed interest in continuing this behavior. Yeah. I didn’t care if she died. Yeah. Choked out a woman who wasn’t even fighting with her. She was just like, here’s my opportunity, I guess. I... Anyway. So one thing that they... That they’re... One of the arguments they make is very legalistic in the same way that Lindsay Clancy’s lawyer is like, do you even have proof? Blah blah blah. Like, chain of custody something something. She was what... She was told what was happening, and she didn’t know, and she was on meds. so I think they’re trying to do this whole thing where she got the death penalty, whereas her boyfriend and accomplice, you know, the one that carved the pentagram into this poor woman, did not. He got, like, twenty five years or so. He... A parole was denied, like, two years ago, but he’s in jail because he was 17. She was 18, so she got the death penalty. And they’re trying to argue that there’s no fundamental neurological difference between someone who is 17 years old and 18 years old. Look. It’s an arbitrary cutoff. Like, it’s... I think it’s a stupid argument. They... The most compelling argument... Although, I don’t think this is compelling, in terms of getting her excused from her punishment, but this is another thing that makes me think we need a better justice system. Is it from the start, this woman, Pike, was subjected to abuse even in the womb. So apparently, her mother drank heavily while she was pregnant. This could have caused, like, you know, lifelong brain damage. She had been That’s BS.

Malcolm Collins:My parent drank heavily while she was pregnant, and I’m Who knows?

Simone Collins:Who knows? Could have

Malcolm Collins:been fine. Who knows? I... People will be like, oh, he’s clearly brain damaged. It’s like, well, if I’m clearly brain damaged and I got a Stanford graduate degree and a St. St. Andrew’s undergraduate degree, two of the top universities in the world. Why did you fail at that? Okay. So maybe I wasn’t that brain damaged. Right? Or maybe maybe the brain damage is just, that I’m too awesome. I’m too brain awesome.

Simone Collins:Too too brain awesome. Yeah. She... There’s, like, this weird local minimum of, like, not enough drinking in the room, but you got so much that you were superpowered.

Malcolm Collins:Yes.

Simone Collins:I don’t know. I don’t know. But, anyway, she was also abused. She was also r to the apes, you know, all the things. Right? Like, just... She had a very, very, very bad life and was never really given a chance. And... Look. Had we had a better justice system that caught people and helped her earlier in her life, this may have never happened. And so this is something that I do think about. But they’re very much like, look. She had untreated bipolar. She had PTSD. She was abused. Like, how could you give someone like that the death sentence? I still think, like, look. Everyone who commits atrocities, who tortures, you can’t let them out on the streets for sure. I mean, I guess they just wanted her to get life in prison. I get that.

Speaker 6:I find it interesting actually because I... You know, Simone’s a smart person how uncritically she accept all of this trauma related stuff about this woman’s childhood, which was really only established in her first trial. The only thing we have any evidence of is one case of sexual abuse when she was 11, and the rest of it is just stuff that she says, um which is bad. But uh I I think we need to be realistic about what somebody would say when they were put on trial for something like this. They’re they’re going to look for, oh, look at this happened to me. Look at this happened to me. You... You’d almost expect them to be able to come up with a bunch of stuff related like this.

Simone Collins:they also try to argue, and I don’t know how they’re doing this, that she has really rehabilitated, that she is a changed person.

Malcolm Collins:But she tried to escape and kill people.

Simone Collins:That’s why I’m really not... I don’t know why they took that angle, but these are women’s groups. You know? Maybe they’re not the best and brightest here. And, also, they

Malcolm Collins:This is this is where I stand with all of this. Why can’t we profit from women more easily if they’re so easily scammed? Like, what... This is the thing. I need to I need to get better at exploring

Simone Collins:Because men are being stupid about

Malcolm Collins:this

Simone Collins:too. I, you know, I I... I’m going to do an episode soon on what I call man witches. And an argument that they... That many of the man witches are making is that men have, relinquished their role in the occult, and that’s why the occult has gotten so bad. and I think that to a a great extent, men are relinquishing responsibility, for for women. And, you know, that’s that’s bad. They are being fooled too. You know, like, fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice. Wait. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Look. I’m a little... Something. something like that. But it’s a very confusing statement.

Malcolm Collins:I get why. Well, because famously, George Bush messed it up, people only remember the messed up version.

Simone Collins:Maybe. I don’t know. I could... I’m, you know, in solidarity with George Bush here. But, look, men are men are playing a part in this. Of course, to your point, people are arguing that her isolation in solitary for so long was also pretty cruel and unusual, and that she should get mercy just for that. And then the final thing sense. Yeah. I mean, that’s

Malcolm Collins:They should have just killed her immediately.

Simone Collins:They really should have. I also... Like, why on earth

Malcolm Collins:Well, because it takes a long time. It is very expensive to put someone on death row.

Simone Collins:I know. We’re we’re gonna talk about that because the whole discussion here is really what should the justice system be. so the final argument is that because because she was... Are and abused as a child that she has asked... They’ve been denied for an all female execution team because a a lot of psychologists are arguing that as she is being killed, she’ll go into some kind of regressive state where she thinks she is being

Malcolm Collins:ripe. So dumb. Every every histionic woman I have ever met claims that they were raped to the child. this is a normal thing for histionic women to I’m I’m sorry that it is offensive to say this, and for a lot of women who genuinely went through hardship with the child, this is one thing. Right? Like, this is... It’s it’s bad that this happens. But a lot of sociopathic histionic women... I’m gonna say virtually... Would you agree? I... I’m actually wondering this in your life. When you have known, like, really selfish histionic narcissistic women, have you ever known any of them who didn’t claim to be groped to the child?

Simone Collins:I don’t know any such women.

Malcolm Collins:You might have an argument woman who was a crazy bee.

Simone Collins:Now you could say it’s causational. Women like I won’t talk

Malcolm Collins:to about causational, but what I’ve noticed is claiming this gets you a lot of benefits as a woman as we can already see from this woman. It gets you out of a

Simone Collins:lot of... As a woman. And so if you’re all ready as a psychopath, why not claim it? If I were the the person who was about to be put down, I honestly would not care about the gender. I would I would not ask because I’m being killed. Like, it doesn’t matter. But she’s arguing that living through another experience in which she’s being, you know, physically restrained by men, like, tied down is gonna be

Malcolm Collins:So what? She did this to other people. They could come on. You’re

Simone Collins:Well, because we have the eighth amendment against true... Cruel and unusual treatment. It’s not People are trying to

Malcolm Collins:It is the usual. She wants special treatment.

Simone Collins:Yeah. Anyway, the The States and the victim’s family hold a very, very consistent position here that, you know, she tortured. She she had a a prolonged involuntary choice to torture this woman. She bragged about it. She kept a trophy. She later tried to kill another inmate. And she... The the the the the victim’s mother just wants, you know, or as she puts it, her daughter to finally be resting. And I I think that that’s entirely fair too. Although, personally, I don’t think that hurting someone in exchange for being hurt really does anything.

Malcolm Collins:I disagree. They’d help society stay stable if you look at the countries with some of the Honestly,

Simone Collins:when when when you go through Leviticus, at least... Guys, in the comments, tell me if I’m wrong here. It... The the punishment seem to go like this. there has to be... And we’ve discussed this with some of our listeners too. There has to be proof of burn. Like, you have to pay a penalty when you do a bad thing. And if you’re dangerous to the society, you have to be removed. Basically, you’re gonna get killed or shunned. like, we all agree upon that. If you are a danger to society, you’re gonna be removed. But it doesn’t matter necessarily how you’re removed, and most of the removal is fairly quick. The stunning to death is not exactly. But, presumably, people do it fast, hopefully. but it’s it’s about removal, or it is about costly, like, proof of burn. I I don’t think that, like

Malcolm Collins:So, Simone, did... If you look at... Like, let’s take certain populations here. If you look at The Middle East or you look at, like, let’s say, Muslim countries, the ones that are the safest are the ones that often have some of the most severe punishments.

Simone Collins:Yeah. The removal. You you and I were talking about this earlier, like, cutting off hands. I... It it just occurred to me when you said that if someone doesn’t have hands, it’s a lot harder to murder someone. I know there was that person who had no legs and no arms who shot someone recently, but, you know, he was an exceptional man. And it’s otherwise very hard to do that. so Simone There’s something to I think What... No. Honestly, though honestly, though, instead of just, like, putting people in prison for, like, an overnight period and letting them go because there’s no room in this prisons, don’t you think we should just cut off hands?

Malcolm Collins:Yeah. Cutting off hands would be good, but I think it’s probably better. Like, when somebody is arrested... Like, I have an easy... If you’re arrested over 200 times, execution. It doesn’t matter if it was a misdemeanor. It’s... You’re just a problem for society at that point. If if you have to be picked up that many times, if you have to... Like, there’s people out there who have, like, robbed a store, like, 300 times in a year or something in New York. Right? Like, these people are just negative externalities for society. And I think cutting off their hands, I mean, what are we gonna do? We’re gonna put them under presumably at first. Right? And then they’re gonna have to live off the state because they don’t have hands. Like, I think it’s better to just take care of these things. Right? Like, I think being a... I I think we were able to be a less harsh society when there were social punishments for doing stuff like this. If you were in a, you know, an old Puritan settlement and you stole from something, the... Your treatment from the community, like, the way that would change your life would likely be worse than having your hands cut off.

Simone Collins:Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and it could... Even if you’re just shunned from many communities, it’s functionally death. And we talked about that self organizing community in Portland called Dignity Village where, you know, if you cross some... Like, you know, even if you escalate to violence ever, you’re out forever. That is that is a shame.

Malcolm Collins:Loved one of the comments we got on that, which it said, for somebody claiming to be a Christian, you don’t have a lot of sympathy for these homeless people. And I’m like, have you read the bible?

Simone Collins:Because I’m I’m

Malcolm Collins:Like, you’re worshiping buddy Christ, man. This is not like the bible. You know, like, the bible is not a a not harsh document in terms of how people are treated or how punishments are doled out. I mean, god kills a guy’s kid because of sexual impropriety and getting a guy killed. But that... I mean, he seems to lean more on the sexual impropriety in the way that he he he words it. But, yeah, that is... You know, the... God is very hard. He’s a... A guy picks up sticks on the Sabbath. Moses isn’t sure what to do, and god’s like, stone him.

Simone Collins:Yeah. Just stone him. Stone him to death.

Malcolm Collins:Beat him to death with stones. Right? Like, this this is the Well,

Simone Collins:I mean, Christian would be like, that was the old testament. We are a different people.

Malcolm Collins:God grew up? I don’t think so. I know.

Simone Collins:I know. I know. Let’s... But I I think, yeah, we’ve we’ve we’ve definitely arrived at the point in this conversation where we do discuss what should be done. I wanna give you a sort of basis for that because the thing that gives me my big influence in terms of crime and punishment is this sub stack post by Scott Alexander that he published in November 2024 titled prison and crime, much more than you wanted to know, which is a really good read. I recommend it. I link it in the show notes, which you should check out on Substack and Patreon. And if you if you look at the extant research, which he did, he he compared deterrence, like discouraging crime through the threat of punishment with incapacitation, like preventing someone from committing crimes in the community while they are imprisoned or maybe while their hands are cut off, but he didn’t look at that, obviously. But per his analysis, the best practical way to reduce crime is to make offenders more likely to be caught chiefly through effective policing rather than simply making prison sentences longer. And he concluded that longer prison sentences have relatively small deterrent effects. But separately, there’s not much evidence that... Suggesting that even the death penalty is a strong deterrent. I I looked at this national institute of justice page that said that there’s no proof that the death penalty deters crime, and it cites a National Academy’s review, finding the research uninformative about whether it increases, decreases, or has no effect on homicide. And here is how I feel about that. Okay.

Malcolm Collins:This is one of those categories of research where you just can’t trust it.

Simone Collins:Yeah. It was

Malcolm Collins:in the academic fields that are doing this research. There is far too much political baggage. It’s one of those things like spanking. Like, you just can’t trust a a modern anthropology professor to be honest about the effects of spanking. None of them are going to... Like, it’s it’s very difficult from a career perspective. Imagine you, a leftist professor in a field where, like, 99% of people are leftists. And and note, there were the recent studies showing that even moderates have mostly left academia at this point or a bit pushed out. And you published something saying that the death penalty is good for society. You are going to be crucified. That is horrible for your career. You you you just cannot trust the research on this. You need to look at common sense. And I think the common sense answer is that you need to find a way for the death penalty to be a cost and time reduction mechanism, not even a deterrent.

Simone Collins:Yeah. Because I actually looked at this. in The USA, the death penalty costs taxpayers a ton more. For this one Maryland Urban Institute study published in 2008, the difference is about 1,900,000 per case. So a death penalty case costs about 3,000,000 when the case resulted in a death sentence, and then a comparable case without the death penalty costs about 1,100,000. And also per Washington Seattle University study published in 2015, the difference is 1,060,000

Malcolm Collins:And we shouldn’t be spending over $1,000,000 per criminal that we’re dealing with as a society. Well, just

Simone Collins:to kill them. Keep in mind, the death penalty case cost 3,070,000 when prosecutors sought death. But without the death penalty, it be 2,100,000 to put someone away for life.

Malcolm Collins:2.1... Yeah. Just that that should not be the case. We should not be spending 2,100,000 on these

Simone Collins:Yeah.

Malcolm Collins:There there should be a way to do this at a a quarter of that price.

Simone Collins:And, obviously It takes more work, with capital cases, though it also costs a lot for... To put someone away for life. The the review can last for years. Mean, woman was in jail for thirty years. Confinement confinement costs more, and it it did in her case because she had her own separate area to be in where it was also fairly cruel I mean, I

Malcolm Collins:think your plan to build, like, you know, quarantine city or something like that.

Simone Collins:No. No. Yeah. Here’s my proposal. This is a modest proposal, and this is my today proposal. I’m gonna have a different one for the near future. Okay? So hear me out here. Today, we, one, create a penal colony, obviously. Two, we send people above a certain crime threshold to the colony only after we sterilize them because there’s no way I am bringing new life into this colony. I’m not subjecting children to this colony. Okay? So you have to sterilize the people before they go off to the colony, though life finds a way. they might do weird Jurassic Park frog stuff. But, anyway, then you make the penal colony self governing. I’m talking Dignity Village penal colony edition.

Malcolm Collins:Yes.

Simone Collins:so that people can form their own justice systems. And then when bad actors choose to do bad things, they will be dealt with according to the rules of that society or whatever enclave they choose to join once they go to this place. But

Malcolm Collins:And then the colony can choose the death penalty.

Simone Collins:Exactly. Well, then the colony... Or I imagine, personally, I would imagine that the colony would form different enclaves, like different forms of dignity village each with their own rules and with their own specialties. Like, you know how when you go to jail, you... Like, jail consultants are like, look. Sorry. But you’re just you’re just gonna need to enter

Malcolm Collins:You’re gonna join one asset group. Yeah. So you allow You’re white. You’re going with the whites. At the colony, one that is the the white gang, one that is the black gang, one that is the Hispanic gang, and you just opt in to whichever one you wanna opt into.

Simone Collins:Or, like, honestly, if if you give people freedom because they’re not locked in a jail anymore, they might actually form less boring kinds of enclaves. But you have to join your thing, and then you’re subject to their rules. And I feel like this would give people a second chance. Like, we wouldn’t set them out in, a desert. You know? I would put the penal colony somewhere where they they could build settlements. They could have a shot at life. And, honestly, I feel like a lot of them would instantly do a ton better and actually get to live a life. You know, get to live a life and do good, at least within a small enclave and have a second chance and and not... At least not hurt people because the most important thing, okay, it’s it’s the portal song. I used to want you dead. Now I only want you gone. We just need them gone. We just need them gone. And so if they’re off in the penal colony, I don’t care if they’re having a great time. In fact, my near future recommendation is this. Okay? I think this is the best possible solution. So in the near future, when technology makes this feasible, give everyone the option to have a pleasure pod. Like, this is not necessarily UBI, but if you want to

Malcolm Collins:put yourself a really bad solution for a woman like this who tortures and kills people. You can’t give them this sort of it out if they’re a a torture killer.

Simone Collins:No. But I’m... No. No. What I’m saying is give every citizen this option. Every citizen, regardless of where they are in life. She, at that time, only knew this other woman that she hurts because she was in this job training program with Presumably, she

Malcolm Collins:would have opted into the pleasure podge

Simone Collins:before Obviously, what happened, she wouldn’t have hurt anyone. Okay? So... Because, look, I’m looking even back to her childhood. Right? I’m looking back to the fact that she had an alcoholic mother who probably didn’t wanna have her in the first place and then had this whole abusive childhood. That mother never would have had her because that mother would have been in a pleasure pod. Okay? Like, the whole... I just... I’m trying to figure out how do we break this cycle. And I think if you take anyone who is not ideologically motivated, who is not trying to build a better world, who just is lazy and wants to have fun, and that is... That’s fine. Okay. Our bodies are designed to conserve energy and to pursue pleasure, because that has historically, you know, led to more offspring, but now it doesn’t. Right? So everyone gets an option to get a pleasure pod. Okay? That is no longer optional after you do a bed. Then you have to go into the box. I don’t need people to suffer. I don’t... Again, we don’t benefit from people suffering. We benefit from them being gone. So society Okay. Has to

Malcolm Collins:be often. I’m fine with this. Yeah.

Simone Collins:Okay. Okay. It has been declared that in the future, when people are dead, they will have to go to the pleasure pond. But also anyone who wishes to go into the pleasure pod with

Malcolm Collins:their own option. If they’ve already done something bad, no.

Simone Collins:That is not optional. It is not optional. They have to go into it. Okay. Yeah. So you go in the box if you want to go in the box, which is gonna prevent the... Malcolm, I swear to you, the vast majority of crimes, at least like the stupid ones where people, you know, kill each other, the the the the... You know? There will still be murders and power struggles, you know, like power struggle based murders, court intrigue nonsense. Right? And there will be punishments for that, obviously. Right? But the vast majority of the atrocities, including the abuse that this woman faced throughout her life from her in utero experience allegedly would not have

Malcolm Collins:Allegedly. Come on. You think she’s not gonna claim that?

Simone Collins:Do you think she would have been born if her mother had had the option to enter a pleasure pod?

Malcolm Collins:You don’t know that anything she... I mean, I don’t know if I buy anything about her mother, but sure. Would she have been born? Hopefully not. Right?

Simone Collins:So I We’re doing my option. We’re doing my option.

Malcolm Collins:You get evil ideologies that are strictly believed, which can be even worse? Like what? Islam.

Simone Collins:Oh, so you’re saying Muslims aren’t gonna go in the pleasure pod?

Malcolm Collins:Well, actually, yeah, of all the religions, it’s the one that would most likely go in the

Simone Collins:pleasure pod. Their heaven is a pleasure pod. They’re gonna prefer the pleasure pod because at least the the hot chicks there don’t have see through shins.

Malcolm Collins:Yeah. It’s like, immediately, we can give you what you think the after life is gonna be. See our... What it must be.

Simone Collins:You don’t have to wait. Also, if you’re in there, you’re not gonna commit the sins that are gonna get you sent to hell. So... You know? It’s a win win. Alright? Like, maybe do some good proselytizing and then go into the pleasure pod, and then you’re you’re good. Oh, then now I hear that they’ll martyr and then... Well, no. If they’re martyr, they’re dead. So then that’s not a problem. But anyway But DNA is a needleless. I still think that this is the best option in terms of a justice system because it’s clear to me that the justice system, as it exists, sucks. But what would you do, okay, aside from my penal colony thing now, PleasurePod in the future solution?

Malcolm Collins:I mean, I think for egregious cases like this, you do need form form of negative consequence. I think it could be the pleasure pod for most people, but once you’ve done something bad

Simone Collins:How how does that make anything better? It doesn’t bring your better by...

Malcolm Collins:Imagine how the family’s going to feel. The family of the daughter who was tortured to death is going to feel if they know that their killer got the pleasure pod. How is Lindsey Clancy’s husband going to feel if his wife gets the Pleasure Pod? I think she’s getting

Simone Collins:it now. She’s drugged up to high heaven. That’s the rest of her life. I mean, I don’t

Malcolm Collins:I think that you’re not considering the effects on the society when you know that there isn’t justice for a crime. and I think having a degree of real and severe justice, is what allows the rest of society to feel okay with what’s going on with their lives. You know, you you haven’t had one of your kids tortured and killed by somebody yet, Simone. You’re gonna feel real different about that person being in a pleasure pod once that happens to you.

Simone Collins:So I guess you could just shoot them.

Malcolm Collins:This is abstract for you. It’s not your life. And I think that if you accept that this could be one of our kids, absolutely. I I do not think a pleasure pod can be an option once you have done something that bad. I think society needs to be okay with the types of punishment that used to be normal.

Simone Collins:Okay. Then they get vaporized.

Malcolm Collins:I don’t understand why we can’t just Starship Trooper three it.

Simone Collins:Oh, hangings? She she actually requested a hanging, I think.

Malcolm Collins:Oh, fantastic. Yeah. So Did she get one?

Simone Collins:I don’t know why she would request a hanging and not a firing squad, which some states actually are bringing back. I would wanna die by firing squad personally. So I don’t get the hanging thing. Because hangings don’t always work. You know? Like, you wanna you wanna want it on it. I mean, firing squads don’t always work either, but that’s only when they collude to mess up.

Malcolm Collins:Oh, do they do that sometimes?

Simone Collins:Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins:They should.

Simone Collins:Yeah. I know. I... Well, there I am saying it. Maybe I’m admitting my true feelings here. But, again, they need to be gone. They don’t Okay. The hurting doesn’t... More hurting doesn’t make anything better. It just adds more hurting.

Malcolm Collins:I appreciate your logic, Simone. That is very correct and logical. I just... If it was one of our kids, I wouldn’t be okay with that. And I think that we need to consider the people whose lives that these people have damaged, both the tortured individual and that people’s... Person’s family, and that requires some form of justice. And it’s not just about what’s best for society in a sort of sociopathic way. It’s about making society right. And the audience can chime in who’s who’s more correct here.

Simone Collins:They’re all gonna support you. But then if we’re not... So how how are how are we killing people who did bad... Very bad things?

Malcolm Collins:I think I think

Simone Collins:Firing squad?

Malcolm Collins:Firing squads are the Old school even in the future. Cheap. You know?

Simone Collins:See, how is

Malcolm Collins:Lots of people get to participate.

Simone Collins:Oh, so firing squad... But if you want to, you... The victim’s family. And Firing squad, they’re still alive.

Malcolm Collins:And Or they’re always gonna screw up on purpose.

Simone Collins:Yeah. I think that would that would... I’m a I’m a... I’m okay with that. As long as it’s, of course, obviously efficient and fast instead of... See, the thing is I think with PleasurePods, like, if it was just... If you don’t follow the rules, you’re into the box. It’s one of those things that isn’t going to end up being caught up in the amount of bureaucratic morass that adds an additional 1.9 to $1,200,000.

Malcolm Collins:The pleasure pods when we have the technology for it. The tech...

Simone Collins:Because that’s the That’s that’s why Scott Alexander ended up in his blog post saying, we just need better police policing and and finding people who commit crimes because having more jail sentences than we’ve

Malcolm Collins:already found. A big problem is that we don’t arrest people.

Simone Collins:They they steal some s**t. Anyway,

Malcolm Collins:love you, Simone. Have a spectacular day. You too. For dinner tonight, I don’t really want anything. I’ll do two I

Simone Collins:was gonna make you pasta with pesto, but you don’t want it? A little bit. A little bit.

Malcolm Collins:Very little bit. I had a lot of prosciutto today.

Simone Collins:Oh, so just nothing? If you wanna just take the night off, also, that’s an option.

Malcolm Collins:we’ll see. I love you. Have a good day.

Simone Collins:Well, I mean, I need to know if I’m making it or not. So You wanna rest? Prefer chips and salsa. So do you want to come downstairs, or do you want to stay?

Malcolm Collins:I may come downstairs. I will decide. You’ll...

Simone Collins:You may make an appearance. The the children will have to wait and see. Daddy. They’re so sweet. Well, you might wanna come down just to hear Indy meow. Meow. She’s so cute. Meow. Oh

Malcolm Collins:my. Okay. Why are you a cutie?

Simone Collins:I’m certainly not, but these kids, man. God. I love it. I love it. Bye.

Malcolm Collins:Bye.

Simone Collins:Yes. Okay. This is our stupid ASMR where we we molest our mics in Malcolm choose food, which is just everything to me. Hey. You know, as content creators, we don’t even have any ASMR videos. I actually think... You know, I I told you about that one of the... YouTube has been doing a bunch of sweeps. And one of the big sweeps that YouTube did recently is a lot of ASMR creators. I think that’s because many of them had OnlyFans in their link trees and stuff. And even if it was, like, secondarily linked to from YouTube, they just took them out. But, yeah, ASMR is a gateway really sad. To darker things, apparently.

Malcolm Collins:ASMR. Well, I mean, Straub, you know, Rev’s wife Yeah. Just had a kid. so she, there’s been a big controversy recently because she went after conservatives who look up to Sydney Sweeney because Sydney Sweeney had a bunch of sexy art of her. And then people pointed out, well, I mean, you used to do sexy content, so she did ASMR videos back in the past. But these specifically

Simone Collins:That is highly contested by many ASMR artists that ASMR

Malcolm Collins:is not was erotic because she took it down. Oh. And so, I mean, my my take on all this is, one, I think it’s annoying that she’s out there policing conservative influencers who use their body for sending... I mean, she’s an actress. Sydney’s... All actresses are prostitutes. We’ve done a video on that. Right? Like, they are selling their body. They do appear naked.

Simone Collins:So what is it worse for her to do to, like, lightly shame her versus you being like, she’s a prostitute. It’s normal. It’s normal. No. Well, I I...

Malcolm Collins:All actresses are prostitutes. And I think that, you know, it’s it’s not useful if somebody’s, you know, helping promote our side and our our wider cause.

Simone Collins:Is she... She’s never come out explicitly as conservative or anything. Everything is so based.

Malcolm Collins:She’s at least willing to

Simone Collins:do the ads. She’s at least willing to do the my jeans. You know? Like They’re ads for jeans. They’re ads for sports bettings. There’s nothing politically coded per se, I guess. Oh, wait. Sorry. Admitting that genetics exists is now an inherently conservative statement.

Malcolm Collins:Okay. I like that somebody who hasn’t been blacklisted from the acting world... You know, if she came out as explicitly conservative, she’d be fired, like, whatever her name is, like, whatever, the Star Wars woman. Oh. So even if she does have conservative sentiment, she couldn’t she couldn’t say them publicly. But I I think that, you know, it’s it’s best for us to not be shooting on team. But even even if that wasn’t the case, even if I thought, you know, Straub’s original criticism was something that she really needed to litigate, She deleted all her old content. Right? Like, she’s very clearly, like, on team these days and doesn’t come across as particularly... I mean, I only know her through her relationship with Rev, which doesn’t come across as griftery. I mean, clearly, he’s a Twitter monkey.

Simone Collins:People want to engage in online stuff, and a lot of people think that the way to start or the only way that people are gonna pay attention to you is if you cater to less intellectual things, which, I mean, as the inherently limited nature of our audience demonstrates, like, it it is a small... You... Growth is way slower than if you immediately put out kid slop or ASMR or... I mean, even Yuki Wado was talking about how, like, in the beginning, her her avatar was really bodacious and very different from the way that she looks now. Because she’s like, well, I guess if I have to succeed, I better be a fan service kind of character. And I don’t I don’t fault anyone for that. I I don’t fault anyone also for having done that in the past and then criticizing it because they know better than anyone else the downsides of it. So I I stand in in defense of Straub here. Dismissive dismissive nod. sorry. What would the subtitle say? I depend on subtitles to understand

Malcolm Collins:Just checking because I was very surprised at our episode about Jews breaking rules. It’s not eight out of 10. It’s just not doing very well. And usually

Simone Collins:I think my title card was better.

Malcolm Collins:Should’ve used mine. Should’ve used yours, you think?

Simone Collins:Oh, yeah. I do. Well, you can switch it now. You get mad when I mess with anything. But, yeah, I I will I will switch it then. Thank you. I appreciate it.

Malcolm Collins:You have permission to switch it out. Permission. Delete the video or something. You’re so sure. I changed the text that’s on it so you can use my text or your text.

Simone Collins:I’m gonna use my text. I’m gonna just do the thing. Alright.

Malcolm Collins:Let’s see how it does.

Simone Collins:This is... Speaking of do the thing, I... One of my, like, deep underlying fears is that you can just do... You can yell do the thing to AI. And then what am I there for? How am I

Malcolm Collins:I am having so many fun with you and then Julie when Veric finds vibe coding. You know what

Simone Collins:I mean? Like

Malcolm Collins:Do the thing. I’m gonna eventually not need you. Well, I’ve asked you for help with a few things. It’s just they haven’t really moved forward. Haven’t helped you.

Simone Collins:Look. I understand. On so many other things helping you that

Malcolm Collins:You’re very busy keeping the same the video, though.

Simone Collins:I downloaded the video of the

Malcolm Collins:the So speaking of not safe for work, try out our FAB, the best chatbot website online. You could use any of the Frontier models, and even our free model is Kimi two, which is to use at the speeds that we’re using at, if you were using it as a local model, I learned would be 500 gigabytes, half a terabyte. So even our free models are way better than Candy’s, like, highest paid models or GPT Flow’s highest paid models. So janitor AI obviously doesn’t even come close. Like like, what are you doing if you’re on janitor AI these... Still these days? So great site for chatbots, but we can also do things like turn a comic into a video. Any comic into an... A a video with the right scenes, playing at the right times, with the right language, so it’ll auto translate for you. We have a a translator. If you’ve ever had a comic or something you’ve seen on a site and you’re like, I’d really like to know what this is. You can just put it in, and it’ll translate it for you. And then you can repost it and make a whole business out of that. That could be your business is making and putting them on YouTube about villainouses. That’s what I

Simone Collins:feel is just I think age of arrogance.

Speaker 3:Emperor Kendrick Everest sat the jeweled throne

Simone Collins:Oh, this is

Speaker 3:crown on his white hair, the fur mantle across his shoulders.

Speaker 4:Oh. The right to choose a marriage partner.

Speaker 3:From the throne, he addressed the court, cloaked figures standing on the red carpet as the crowd murmured below.

Speaker 4:That is what I shall bestow upon you as a reward for leading us to victory.

Speaker 3:Shinne Shapravaz stared ahead, stunned. Still on the throne, he grant

Simone Collins:Oh my gosh. It’s actually really good.

Malcolm Collins:What a Why don’t you post it before this episode, and we can make a link to it?

Simone Collins:Okay.

Malcolm Collins:Because, we’re we’re gonna make a villainous channel. And I’ve actually read this this malware before, and it’s pretty good. I put it on one of

Simone Collins:my I I started with the bottom of your top list because I figured I’d screwed up at the beginning. But, no, this is chapter one to 10. It’s, like, more than an hour. Wow, man. That was... I just uploaded a file. No. I I just put in a URL and clicked your button, and it made that.

Malcolm Collins:It auto detects all of the chapters.

Simone Collins:It Dude, sir. Yeah. And right now, I finally got the not safe

Malcolm Collins:for work comic engine working pretty well. Yeah. And you will make not safe for work comics for you beginning to end that you could make a business publishing to other sites. And we need people doing that because we need a bunch of our fab branded stuff.

Simone Collins:Oh my gosh. If I make a username on the sites that I’m gonna post these to once you make them because I don’t know

Malcolm Collins:what to make, Can I? Could the username be p r v a y e r, purveyor? The purveyor?

Simone Collins:I think there’s something about people with Asperger’s and, like, puns or something.

Malcolm Collins:You probably want it to be the company name.

Simone Collins:Oh, fine. You’re right. Someone else, please be the purveyor. I need this to happen. anyway

Malcolm Collins:We can Anything to grow. Anything to get bigger, we’ve

Simone Collins:gotta figure it out. I’m so impressed by that. That was... I’d literally hit download before we started to record because I was like, oh, I gotta get this... You know, gotta move on to the next chapter set because you’re right. You know, it takes a little while. But... Wow, Malcolm. Oh, I was like, I

Malcolm Collins:feel like few chapters at once.

Simone Collins:Oh, yeah? You mean, like, a few processing thingies? Well, like So to be

Malcolm Collins:like, can

Simone Collins:you do do one video of chapters 10 to twenty, twenty to thirty, thirty to 40, and then it just makes three videos in turn. That would be... I mean, that would... I’m sure people would like that as a feature. I know that I would like that as a feature because then you can just upload all of them and be done with it. But I I just... I wanna stop and watch the room. Like, wait. What? I wanna I wanna watch this. That’s great. That’s great. Thank you for for doing that. I know that you found this whole genre to be quite enjoyable, and so other people will as well. You carrying out the trash, holding your phone in front of your face.

Speaker 7:Check the comments. I have pinned another channel where we are posting these now so you can watch your own villainous Moas while you’re doing things.

Speaker 8:The rest of them cut it out. Look at those ones tipping. Yeah. Indy, do you know what this means? You see that tree right behind you? That means beavers have here. Beavers have been here. Right in there. Yeah. You see the beaver? I don’t wanna see if they’re not here. I said. Okay. Let’s... Do you wanna find a beaver? Is this beaver hunt time? Yeah. Mommy.