For years, Mark Ritson and Byron Sharp have been two of the most influential and most opinionated voices in marketing. They've challenged each other's ideas, debated strategy, and helped shape how an entire generation of marketers thinks.Now, for the first time in more than a decade, at Cannes Lions, they sit down together to answer a simple question: what do they actually agree on?From How Brands Grow and the 95:5 rule to distinctiveness, the 4 Ps, mass marketing, luxury brands, purpose and AI, this conversation explores the fundamental marketing principles they both believe every marketer should understand.There are still plenty of disagreements (and more than a few jokes at each other's expense), but this is a rare opportunity to hear two of the industry's biggest thinkers build a shared foundation for modern marketing.This episode is brought to you by System1. Download their creator effectiveness report here: https://system1group.com/the-creator-effectiveness-playbookTimestamps00:00:00 - Start00:00:40 - Teaser00:02:08 - Mark Ritson on Champagne00:03:42 - When did Mark and Byron meet00:05:36 - Why Byron and Mark are coming together after a decade00:07:25 - When Jon met Byron00:08:57 - Is AI more brand centric than humans?00:11:08 - Mark and Byron’s criticism on their Cannes talk00:12:49 - The problem with academia00:13:45 - What do marketers still not understand about How Brands Grow00:18:06 - You are not the customer00:20:56 - Distinctiveness vs relative differentiation00:28:45 - Why we need to control all 4 Ps00:33:10 - The 95:5 rule00:39:20 - Why Byron doesn’t like the term “Long Term”00:42:41 - The role of mass marketing00:46:40 - How to do mass marketing as a challenger brand00:53:45 - How long does it take to build a proper brand00:56:10 - What does Byron think of P&G00:58:47 - The power of distinctive brand assets01:03:42 - Why brand anniversaries are pointless01:04:40 - How luxury brands grow01:09:16 - The role of purpose01:16:58 - The dark lord of penetration01:18:17 - What pet name does Byron have for Mark01:23:17 - Closing remarks

In this episode, Josh Spanier from Google and Lauren Wiener from BCG join us to discuss how AI is transforming marketing, organisations, and the role of the CMO. From navigating the AI hype cycle to building the right culture for change, they share practical advice for leaders trying to turn AI from a buzzword into a genuine competitive advantage.We also explore the future skills marketers will need, the changing role of agencies, why marketing should lead AI transformation, and where the industry is likely to be just 12 months from now.This episode has been produced in partnership with BCG. Browse their CMO Report here:https://www.bcg.com/publications/2026/making-the-agentic-marketing-transformation-a-realityTimestamps00:00 - Start01:52 - Where are we in the AI hype cycle04:48 - How are Google seeing AI impact businesses06:50 - The difference between the CMOs who are getting it right and wrong09:05 - The future of marketing in the age of AI10:48 - The skills of the future CMO16:41 - Why marketing needs to drive the change19:18 - Positive examples of AI24:01 - How do organisations make the change27:02 - When AI campaigns don’t go so well29:11 - How AI data will transform marketing30:13 - Dealing with higher expectations but less resource35:25 - The culture to enable successful AI transformation36:55 - The role of agencies in an AI world38:50 - AI predictions in 12 months40:23 - The best advice you’ve ever been given41:52 - Where will marketing be in 12 months

Adam Morgan, founder of eatbigfish and co-creator of The Cost of Dull, joins us to explore why surprise is one of the most powerful tools available to marketers. Drawing on new research unveiled at Cannes Lions, Adam and Jon explain the psychology behind surprise, the science of reward prediction error, and why memorable brands consistently give people more than they expect.We discuss the different types of surprise, why products need to live up to the expectations created by advertising, and examine some of the best examples of surprise in modern marketing from Aldi to Jaguar and beyond.Timestamps00:00 - Start01:58 - The surprising outcomes of Cost of Dull06:04 - The genesis of Cost of Dull09:01 - Why are we talking about surprise?10:08 - Why the best marketers look outside of marketing13:42 - What the data says about surprise15:50 - Reward prediction error17:26 - Why your product needs to exceed expectations set by your brand19:59 - The surprising power of giving people more than they expect21:48 - The two types of surprise25:00 - Adam’s favourite examples of surprise26:09 - Jon’s favourite example of surprise28:20 - Was Jaguar intentionally surprising?29:39 - Examples of long term surprise31:50 - Why Aldi are so successful at surprise34:28 - Why you need a system for your surprise38:15 - The right balance of surprise42:12 - When is shock necessary

Suso O'Brien, former CMO of Just Eat, joins us to discuss what the role of the modern CMO really looks like. Drawing on her experience helping scale Just Eat and the findings from a new CMO survey conducted with TikTok, Suso argues that today's marketing leaders need a completely different set of priorities.We revisit the growth of Just Eat, the success of the iconic “Did Somebody Say…” campaign, and the role celebrity partnerships and sonic branding played in building the brand. But beyond the advertising, Suso shares why CMOs spend surprisingly little time on the work itself, why internal influence matters more than ever, and why managing expectations may be more important than managing brands.The conversation also explores the lack of marketing representation at the top of organisations, the pressures facing today's CMOs, and Suso's framework for leading people through her five Cs of great management.Timestamps00:00 - Start02:52 - The food delivery category in 201604:05 - The role marketing played in the growth of Just Eat05:55 - Does “did somebody say?” translate globally?07:26 - The celebrity strategy behind Just Eat09:47 - The power of sonic branding12:12 - What impact did the campaign have vs other growth levers for Just Eat14:36 - CMOs rarely spend any time on the work17:28 - The real 4 Ps of the CMO19:06 - Discoveries from the CMO survey with TikTok20:56 - Why the lack of marketing representation at the top of companies is worrying22:00 - What skills are lacking in an organisation23:08 - The short term pressure on the CMO24:34 - How do you make the case to invest in long term28:20 - The power of compounding creativity29:04 - The CMO’s role is managing expectations, not brands30:04 - Why CMO’s need to persuade internal stakeholders36:10 - The #1 challenge CMO’s face40:58 - Suso’s hardest challenges as Just Eat CMO42:40 - Why Suso asked her colleagues for feedback when she left Just Eat44:17 - 5 C’s of great people management44:32 - 1: Care45:30 - 2: Clarity47:35 - 3. Calling it early49:12 - 4. The cost of comfort51:33 - 5: Constant feedback53:25 - Suso’s advice to future CMOs

Jamie Domenici, CMO of Klaviyo, joins us to discuss why customer experience has become one of the most powerful drivers of growth. Drawing on lessons from nearly a decade at Salesforce and her experience joining Klaviyo just months before its IPO, Jamie shares how great brands create loyalty by obsessing over the customer.We explore what marketers can learn from customer success teams, why events like Dreamforce are so memorable, and how Klaviyo has repositioned itself while building a competitive moat in an increasingly crowded market.Jamie also shares her views on AI, the future workforce, the skills tomorrow's CMOs will need, and the difference between good marketing leaders and truly great ones.Timestamps00:00 - Start01:05 - Jamie’s strange first job02:26 - Best and worst customer experiences05:56 - The power of a good customer experience08:45 - Marketing lessons from customer success11:48 - Marketing lessons from 10 years at Salesforce13:05 - Why Dreamforce was a great example of good customer experience14:46 - The key to a great keynote21:56 - Joining Klaviyo just months before an IPO24:28 - Repositioning a company25:45 - How does B2C differ to B2B when it comes to CRM?28:41 - How Klaviyo are building their moat30:51 - Where is AI going to have the biggest impact?32:19 - How are Klaviyo using AI in their product?34:14 - How AI is going to change the workforce35:42 - What skills will future CMOs be hiring for?37:31 - The difference between a good CMO and a great CMO39:17 - Why Klaviyo invest a lot in events40:52 - The best advice Jamie has ever received

Anselmo Ramos is one of the most respected creatives in advertising and the co-founder of GUT, the agency behind some of the world's most talked-about campaigns. Built on the belief that brave creativity drives business growth, GUT has quickly become one of the industry's most successful modern agencies.In this episode, Anselmo shares the story behind founding GUT, the principles that guide the business, and why marketers need to trust their instincts more. We discuss the power of relationships, how to build a great co-founder partnership, and why the biggest challenge often comes after success.We also explore GUT's approach to pitching, the bravery gap facing modern brands, the role of AI, and the campaigns that have helped define the agency's remarkable rise.Timestamps00:00:00 - Start00:02:44 - Why is the industry obsessed with making rational advertising?00:04:19 - Why GUT have 68 principles00:06:27 - Why you need to pay more attention to your GUT00:09:10 - The GUT agency founding story00:12:41 - The secret to a successful co-founder relationship00:14:42 - Lessons from creating a successful agency00:17:58 - The surprising challenges of growing a successful agency00:20:14 - The compounding power of relationships00:22:55 - GUT’s approach to pitching00:29:26 - How to be productive and find inspiration00:31:50 - The power of working without approval00:36:26 - The bravery scale and the bravery gap00:40:17 - How to become a brave brand00:43:26 - Why brave creativity drives business results00:45:52 - Why black t shirts?00:49:09 - How GUT’s acquisition changed the business00:56:21 - How to plan your exit strategy00:59:29 - The Artois Probability: a Grand Prix winning campaign01:03:55 - Wimbledon All White Stella Artois Can01:05:59 - Stella Artois partnership with David Beckham01:11:06 - Where Anselmo uses AI01:13:53 - The best advice Anselmo has ever been given

Greg Hahn returns to the podcast to discuss the philosophy that has made Mischief one of the most talked-about agencies in the world.From Tubi's famous Super Bowl interruption campaign to turning around legacy brands like JCPenney, Greg explains why the biggest risk brands face today isn't failure, it's being ignored. We discuss how to create safe spaces for dangerous ideas, why AI risks making marketers more cautious, and the hidden cost of playing it safe.Greg also shares the traits of great CMOs, the future of agencies and pitching, the campaigns he's most proud of, and the advice he'd give to the next generation of creatives.Thanks for System1 for supporting the podcast: https://system1group.comTimestamps00:00 - Start01:43 - Who are Mischief and what do they stand for?04:26 - What would Greg Hahn’s walk on track be?05:05 - How to make a safe space for dangerous ideas07:46 - Is AI making us play it safe?10:37 - What is the real cost of playing it safe?14:31 - The Mischief strategy behind Tubi16:20 - Tubi’s famous Super Bowl interruption campaign17:20 - The reward prediction error theory22:16 - Turning around a large legacy business like JCPenney25:55 - The traits of a successful CMO28:06 - The JCPenney movie trailer30:16 - Goldfish Chilean Sea Bass campaign35:51 - Why Greg likes George Felix as a CMO37:09 - The work that Greg is most proud of38:03 - What does the future of pitching look like?40:50 - How much of Mischief’s work comes from pitching42:13 - The future of social media43:17 - What other agency work is Greg envious of?45:03 - What would Greg do if he wasn’t afraid?48:01 - What does the future creative agency look like?49:14 - What does the future CMO role look like?51:12 - What does Greg want to achieve next?53:29 - Greg’s advice for young creatives54:25 - What’s the best advice Greg Hahn has ever been given?56:59 - What content does Greg consume? - Post chat

George Felix, CMO of Chili’s, joins us to tell the story behind one of the most impressive brand turnarounds of recent years. From iconic menu items like chips and salsa and the famous margarita to viral social media moments and creative partnerships, George explains how Chili’s became culturally relevant again and reignited growth.Before Chili’s, George played a key role in the legendary Old Spice turnaround, and in this episode he shares the lessons he's learned from transforming legacy brands. We discuss the power of nostalgia, making the most of your agency relationships, influencing product and pricing decisions, and why the customer experience often drives more value than advertising alone.Timestamps00:00:00 - Start00:02:07 - The famous Chili’s chips and salsa00:03:39 - The famous Chili’s margharita00:06:32 - Why Chili’s has signature items00:08:01 - How Chili’s became one of the biggest brand turnarounds in history00:10:51 - The importance of working with people you trust00:12:26 - George’s role in the Old Spice turnaround00:18:10 - How to build the case for increased brand investment00:21:16 - The power of nostalgia for a legacy brand00:25:57 - How George pitched an idea to his creative agency and they bought it00:29:03 - The System1 data for the Chili’s ad00:30:45 - Fostering a great client / agency relationship00:38:19 - How experience drives better ROI than marketing00:42:43 - The viral cheese pull trend00:45:45 - How can a brand create cultural relevance?00:48:45 - Chili’s brand collaboration with Tecovas Boots00:51:19 - How George has influence over the Product “P” in marketing00:54:51 - How to leverage the Pricing “P”00:57:43 - The concept of “barbell pricing”01:00:27 - What is the most important attribute for a successful CMO?

Rory Sutherland and Tom Goodwin return for part two of our wide-ranging conversation on the future of marketing, creativity, and business.From driverless cars and Silicon Valley thinking, to the dangers of digitising every human interaction, Rory and Tom explore what businesses lose when efficiency becomes the only goal. They also discuss why governments need creative departments, whether we truly understand how advertising works, and how marketers can finally gain the influence they deserve inside organisations.Timestamps:00:00 - Start00:56 - What will be the advertising agency of the future?10:39 - How to change the way we think about ad agencies15:42 - Why the government need a creative department19:44 - Creativity isn’t dead because AI only uses data from the past22:32 - How marketers can achieve the influence they deserve24:08 - Do we really know how advertising works?29:29 - Is Tesla applying marketing thinking?31:58 - The future of driverless cars and the danger of Silicon Valley44:03 - Human interaction vs digitising everything47:43 - Tom and Rory’s advice for CMOs

Two of our most popular guests return for a conversation on what’s gone wrong in modern marketing and how to fix it. Rory Sutherland and Tom Goodwin tackle everything from digital overload and bad choice architecture to the disappearance of taglines, long-term thinking, and genuine creativity.Expect behavioural science, contrarian thinking, and plenty of ideas that will make you rethink how marketing really works.Timestamps00:00:00 - Start00:01:31 - Digital overload - are consumers given too much choice?00:05:51 - The power of “Easter Egg Thinking”00:07:54 - Have hotels destroyed choice architecture?00:10:56 - More choice reduction failures00:14:46 - Do consumers need more choice?00:17:45 - How ad agencies can discover real insights00:19:21 - An idea to revolutionise Cannes00:20:49 - Why Rory and Tom think differently00:24:05 - What are the biggest marketing myths today00:30:41 - Fat tailed distribution - the Dulux Dog00:32:18 - Why we need to bring back the tagline00:35:17 - Are marketers too young?00:37:15 - The long term work only pays off after you’re fired00:42:34 - How to we make companies look more long term?00:48:03 - Why people love Ryanair but hate BA00:49:09 - The role of surprise in advertising00:50:43 - Is marketing actually rather easy?01:00:49 - Is the advertising agency model broken?Thank you to our sponsor, System1: https://system1group.com/