A light hearted episode where Ann gets really self-conscious and totally not on brand, Kim thoroughly enjoys playing with the hashtag and both of us admit the times when we're consciously not on brand. May you find it easier to be human too.

Keeping appetite throughout big change moments

Ann de Passos and Kim van Niekerk on leadership and the impact of the state you lead from. Conversations about pressure, presence, burnout, and what becomes available when the nervous system isn't managing threat. Sometimes just us. Sometimes sharing space with a leader who knows the terrain.

Music by Anastasia Chubarova.

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