This podcast was a treasure trove of information and empowering insights which ultimately helped me achieve my VBAC in April 2026. Listening to the ladies on here inspired me to get a doula, change providers and go into birth armed with knowledge. I owe my wonderful birth experience to this podcast and highly recommend it to all parents-to-be. Keep up the phenomenal work!

As a birth doula, I found The VBAC Link podcast after my first VBAC client recommended it to me. After just a few episodes, I knew I wanted to take the doula course too. I spent months listening during every car ride and learned so much along the way. Taking the course deepened that knowledge even more and gave me so much confidence in supporting VBAC families. I’m really thankful for everything The VBAC Link team shares through both the podcast and course.

I love this podcast and found it so very helpful, informative and encouraging while planning my VBAC. I will admit, I found it somewhat annoying to keep hearing over and over that you have a better chance of having a VBAC if you hire a doula. After my first birth where I had so many people in the room while I labored, I really wanted it to be just my husband and I other than doctors and nurses coming and going as needed. But I really wanted a VBAC, so I found a doula that I felt drawn to and I AM SO GLAD THAT I DID! I don’t think I would have hired a doula if it had not been for the VBAC link reiterating how helpful doulas can be. She was amazing (and also had taken the VBAC links doula course/certification) and I really attribute so much of getting my VBAC and it going fairly quickly to her. So, thank you, VBAC Link!

I knew I would come back to leave a positive review no matter the outcome of my second birth, but sharing the news of a successful VBAC in my review was something I visualized and am thrilled to include! I first found the VBAC Link via a blog you all posted as I laid in my recovery room post c section back in 2024. From there I found the podcast and this course. The combination of VBAC stories on the podcast and the videos/readings from the course prepared and inspired me to achieve my VBAC two days ago. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for connecting women to important information that is truly life changing. When I got home from the hospital yesterday and was able to get my 22 month old up from his nap myself with cuddles I couldn’t help but think of this organization for making that possible. I received my dream vaginal birth and am able to pour all of my love (emotionally AND physically) in to my two children.

I had a truly unnecessary ‘emergency’ c section with my second and I was totally crushed. I remember lying on the operating table thinking that I was annoyed because I knew I wanted more babies and a VBAC sounded like it was going to be hard work. Well, it was hard work and I couldn’t have done it without the encouragement of the VBAC link. My entire pregnancy I would go on Saturday walks alone for however long that week’s episode was. I got my VBAC! Full term at home after preterm labour and c section. So much love to all the women who share and the VBAC link.

For whatever reason, birth is a taboo topic. Women don’t talk about it and when they do, it’s generally ONLY the scary parts. I am so thankful to have found a podcast that is filled with the ups and downs of births because it truly is a rollercoaster! I am planning to have a vbac after 2 c-sections and I am inspired every single day by the women of strength that share their stories on this podcast. They give me hope and help me believe that I can do it too. I think mamas are better informed about all aspects of birth because of this podcast. Such an amazing resource! Thank you, thank you, thank you for this podcast and for everyone who has shared their stories!!!

Listening to these stories and learning from all of these amazing women played such an immense part in attaining my VBAC this year. I had a home birth and felt like I brought in the strength of all the women’s stories I listened to with me during those moments of doubt during my birth. Thank you to the creators of this podcast and the strong mothers who share these intimate stories with us. My life is forever changed.

I am so grateful for this podcast. I listened to so many episodes after having an emergency c section for a breech baby. I was terrified to give birth again because I didn’t want a c section and a Vbac seemed scary. (I knew two people who had uterine ruptures). However, the evidence based research and stories helped me figure out the right choice for myself and taught me to advocate for myself which was helpful after having another breech baby! I’m grateful to say that God gave me the VBAC I had been praying so hard for. Thank you for your podcast and the VBAC course!

I listened to this podcast nonstop after my first pregnancy ended up in a cesarean. I was so completely disappointed and surprised to have had the cesarean that I decided I would stop at nothing to get a VBAC. This podcast, the Women of Strength before me, the valuable education and support that Julie and Meagan provide in each and every episode is without a doubt the reason I had a successful HBAC this last April! I feel so complete in my birth journey and so thankful for this podcast as it was a huge resource and motivation for me to never give up. I will continue to share this resource to all woman. You all are changing the birth world and bringing power back to us mamas. Thank you so much!

I stared listening to this podcast a few months before the birth of my second baby. I knew I wanted to attempt a VBAC and hearing all the different success stories and scenarios helped me feel so educated and empowered to believe in myself and my body, even when I knew I was bound to have another big baby (over 9lbs), I was able to maintain a calm and determined mindset going into labor and was successful with my VBAC!!! Thank you for sharing this stories and providing so much insight into birth after csection!!!!

I love the VBAC link!! They give away so much free information which is so rare these days! I am hoping to have a Vbac and heading this podcast gives me hope! I also purchased the course and am excited to learn! Thank you, Meagan for sharing your wisdom with us!

Been listening to you ladies for months and getting ready for my VBA2C. Had our baby yesterday, with an unmedicated hospital birth. Still amazed and ecstatic. Here again and I had an HBA2C this time! The best way to learn about birth is hearing as many stories as possible. Thank you for such an encouraging podcast.

I got my vba2c 6 days ago, and it was the most amazing and empowering experience! I listened to this podcast everyday of my pregnancy, I truly gained so much knowledge from just hearing other mamas share their stories. So Thank you TVL and community, you helped me tremendously!

Listening to this podcast feels like catching up with old friends. These women bring together powerful stories to help any woman process and plan birth. Most stories made me sob with joy and feel the togetherness of all birthing women. I was able to experience a recent vbac and the women who organize this podcast and the women who share their stories are all a part of my journey. Thank you for all that you do!

I found the VBACLink when I was in a dark place after my c-section with my 1st child. I was angry, depressed, and anxious because of the birth trauma I experienced with that birth. Through listening to the VBACLink, I learned the importance of gathering a supportive team, how to arm myself with education, and practical ways to advocate for myself. I’m elated to share I got my VBAC just 4 days ago with our surprise gender baby (it’s a girl!). What an empowering, healing, and positive experience it was! I couldn’t have done it without my amazing OB, incredible doula, and the education and inspiration from the VBACLink. I’m proud to be a woman of strength, and thank the VBACLink for all it did for me!

I started listening to this podcast late into my pregnancy as I was preparing for my VBAC at the end of the 2024. There were times I wanted to give up, because I didn’t have a supportive provider, but these stories and info sustained my desire to keep trying! I am so thankful that I kept listening, because the information about VBAC was vital during my hospital birth. I am thankful that I was able to deliver my daughter vaginally at the end of December. After my VBAC I have kept listening as it brings back memories of one of my favorite moments of my life & has brought me peace about my c-section.

I’ve been listening to the podcast for over a year, and it’s been so inspiring! And helped me find resources to feel confident in finding the right provider, understanding and processing my c-section, and preparing for my HBAC. I’m 41 weeks today and looking forward to the experience to come. Thanks to the podcast and the woman sharing their stories!

After I had my c-section in April 2022 I thought I would always have to have repeat sections. I found this podcast and started bingeing every episode while I was pregnant with my second. My confidence in my body grew with every story I listened to and I learned how to advocate for myself with the informative statistics. I loved hearing the powerful vbac stories, the repeat section stories, the cbac stories, and even the vba2c/ vbamc stories. Hearing strong women talk about their birth has become an obsession of mine and I’m so glad I found this podcast. With that being said after doing everything “by the books” to achieve a vbac I , unfortunately did not succeed. However, because of this podcast I was able to have a healing cbac. I also will not give up on my vbac journey because I know the statistics and have heard the wonderful success stories of vba2c. I am so grateful to have found this podcast and Facebook page because this community is so strong and understanding.

After having a c-section in November 2022 I had a successfully induced VBAC in August 2023 and all the information I learned from this podcast came into play! Thank you for all your effort in putting together evidence, experts, and encouraging stories.

I had a c section for breech presentation in 2022, an experience that I found disempowering and that undermined my confidence in my body and trust in providers. When I found myself pregnant with my second, not having processed my first birth, I knew I needed to have a different experience this time. Listening to other women of strength sharing their stories equipped me to go into my next birth knowing that I was in charge of my own experience and the expert on what was best for me. In March 2024 I got my VBAC! It was not entirely the birth I wanted, but it was the birth I needed. Every intervention was my choice and my birth team looked to me as the leader, which was so empowering! I couldn’t have done it without the support and confidence instilled in me by this podcast!

I am so thankful I came across this podcast and know it was an invaluable tool when educating myself regarding VBACs and the birthing process in general. My first son was born via cesarean due to his stubbornness and refusing to turn from his breech presentation. Leading up to my c-section, I was devastated that I wouldn’t be able to experience the natural birthing process I had always wanted. I’m in the medical world and I knew about VBACs and it was never even a thought I wouldn’t try for one with my next pregnancy. I found the VBAC link halfway through my second pregnancy and it was so addicting! I listened to every episode (sometimes multiple times a day!) until my delivery. Every woman’s story was amazing and truly helpful to me personally. Thank you Megan for being passionate about VBACs and educating women all over the world! I can excitedly say that God was so gracious and I had my beautiful VBAC this past August! Thank you to every woman who shared your story on the podcast and for all the women who are listening and expecting a sweet baby, I’m cheering you on!

I had an extremely traumatic birth center hospital transfer than emergency c section over the course of 5 days. I went onto plan a vbac for my second. Prepared to the best of my ability with the information I had. With an unsupportive provider I had yet another c section. Now planning a 3rd I came across this podcast and have never felt so validated. My birth trauma was too painful for me to relive. I had accepted the reality of never “experiencing” the birth I craved and felt I needed in my soul. It was all too traumatic for me so I locked it all in a closet never dreaming to open that door. This podcast has gradually allowed me to not only open that door but to slowly sort through all the heavy baggage. I could not be more grateful. I am healing in a way I never knew possible thanks to this amazing podcast. I can say confidently I KNOW I can have a vba2c. I am now in the process of interviewing midwives for a hba2c. Please never stop doing what you are doing. I can only speak for myself, however I know I am not alone. This podcast quite literally has changed my life. 🩷

This podcast has been such a great help as I healed from my very unwanted cesarean birth. I had a lot of confusion and guilt after the birth of my sweet girl in September of 2022. This post cast has been and important key to my healing from my terrible experience.

The VBAC Link gave me the confidence and knowledge to advocate for myself and for the birth I knew I was capable of. For that, I will always be grateful! Having had ICP with my first pregnancy and delivering vaginally after that 38 week induction, I never imagined the second birth would go so wrong. I didn’t prepare for the birth at all, I just rode it out as a passenger to my induction with well-meaning medical professionals steering the ship. I ended up with a spontaneous complete placental abruption that nearly cost us both our lives. Fifteen minutes after his little lifeless body was taken out of me, my son’s heart spontaneously restarted following all resuscitation efforts by the medical team. Because of the quickness in which he had to be delivered, I had an unusually painful and slow CS recovery. To add to the trauma of everything else and my husband was away for the military, so I was completely alone, recovering from the trauma of almost dying, my son almost dying, major surgery, an infant who needed me all the time, all while taking care of my 2 year old daughter. Needless to say, the trauma for this was lasting and multi-layered. I told myself that if I ever had another baby, there’s nothing that would stop me from delivering vaginally, unless it was life-or-death. I found myself pregnant when my son was barely two and immediately poured myself into research supporting my desires and found the VBAC Link. Like so many of us, I became obsessed and listened to every episode of the podcast and read every blog, article, and post online. My doctor was supportive and willing to do a VBAC and we started the pregnancy with her saying that would be our goal, but was cautious to make any promises because of the last delivery. She was incredibly kind and was always willing to discuss it, but she had also been traumatized, so she was cautious too. Thanks to the VBAC Link, I knew to see that trauma in her and still be able to hold my ground and verbalize my desired outcome. I made it through most of the pregnancy fine, until the last trimester when the ICP showed back up. I began regular testing which I was okay with because I knew ICP could be dangerous. I declined a lot of things suggested by my MFM (including a RCS repeatedly) because the VBAC Link had taught me that it was okay to say no. By the 34th week, I had developed signs of preeclampsia and despite meeting a few of the criteria, I wasn’t diagnosed with it. I was still up against a lot and after a few weeks, my doctor seemed less keen to allow me to TOLAC, because she knew I would need an early induction. At that time, it seemed like a 36 week delivery was more likely and she wasn’t comfortable inducing me that early. While I knew that I had a right to say no, I decided instead to do research, as I had learned from the podcast and the group, and then I presented it to my medical team. After hearing me out, they agreed that baby was safe to stay in at least to 38 weeks. I decided to just shoot it straight with my doctor about where I was at. I had heard it so many times on the podcast, trust your body to know what’s right, so that’s what I told her. I told her I knew that my body could do this and all I wanted was to be able to try. If I tried and it didn’t go well, I’d be okay with that as long as I had the opportunity. She told me that through everything she had grown to trust my judgement and if I said I could do it, she would help me try and she told me she knew I trusted her enough to listen if she said it was time to call it. We both made compromises so that we were comfortable with the plan. I knew medically, we had been fortunate to have survived last time and it weighed on her a lot, so I was willing to meet her halfway. And so, she agreed to induce me at 38 weeks! When I went in for my induction, I was firm on the low and slow to start, which felt good, like I was in control of something. I eventually agreed to go up a little more and my amazing nurse helped me with all of the positions and movement. Even when I got the epidural (very light thanks to all I had learned!), she had me switching and moving! I’ll never forget the moment when my doctor walked in and said “Okay, we’re ready to have this baby!” I just cried big happy tears while they set up. Before they could finish, I couldn’t help the urge to push and literally 4 minutes later, my VBAC baby boy was born! Having that VBAC healed me in every way. Ways I didn’t even know I was broken. It’s like the trauma melted away as they placed him on my chest. I can’t even begin to describe how invaluable the VBAC Link was to my success and to my healing. Without everything I learned, who knows where I would be. I don’t have nightmares anymore or flashbacks. I can think about my first son’s birth with a smile rather than terror. I am so thankful that you all helped me find my voice and my confidence to advocate for myself. I am so thankful for your willingness to facilitate this insanely helpful world of VBAC. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart. Love, Aubrey

Listened to Emmy’s VBAC and just hearing another mom talk about her experience in the hospital vs home birth gives me so much hope!

This podcast can be a valuable resource in the birth world and I used to recommend it often. I’m grateful for the tremendous amount of work that Julie and Meagan put into it gathering such a huge collection of VBAC stories. Some are wonderful and so encouraging. However it often comes from very very medicalized approach to birth. Your doctor will “let” you, “make sure to ask your provider”, etc. Some of the guest OBs have been absolutely TERRIBLE full of fear mongering and VBAC red flags and honestly should never have been published at all or should be deleted. I don’t love the new format this past year with more sometimes odd commercials and the guest cohosts (it’s hard to tell who is who and follow as well).

I am extremely grateful for this podcast that Megan and her team has created . The stories on here have helped me tremendously through one of the most life altering times in my life. With my first unwanted cesarean i was left so confused as of why i was so sad even though myself and baby were healthy. I tried talking to others but nothing has helped me more than this resource right here. I resonate so much when Megan after my second unwanted cesarean and now planning for my vba2c in a couple weeks. Truly thank you so much for being a source , ears, and guide for so many woman that are going through “it” All my Love, Missy

I wasn’t able to make it through a whole episode. I just had a hard time with the host constantly jumping in with “mhmm” “mhmm” and I felt like she talked too much it took away from hearing from the person who’s story it was. Sad because I was really excited about the contact but I guess this might just be one of those things were I get too annoyed with the hosts voice.

Just three days ago I achieved my dream of an unmedicated VBAC, bringing to close a journey that started last year when I began to learn about all things VBAC from this podcast and your website. Through you I found my doula, and through her I found a new provider, chiropractor, and perinatal therapist. In addition to those professionals I also saw a pelvic floor physical therapist during my pregnancy. Without the support of this amazing team and my wonderful husband, I truly believe the VBAC would not have happened. The stories on your podcast gave me hope that what I wanted was possible and inspired me to keep going when all those chiropractor and therapist appointments just seemed overwhelming. Thank you!!

In 2020, I had an urgent C-section with my son after pushing for five hours. In the hospital, the OB told me that I may never have a vaginal birth because my pelvis was likely “too small” (how would she know this? I changed providers at 36 weeks due to COVID restrictions, so she did not know me or any of my health history). I suppose I am a smaller woman (5 feet 2 inches) but let me tell you, it had no bearing on my VBAC! I pushed for only 20 minutes with my second, who was almost 9 lbs (1 lb bigger than my C-section baby)! This podcast equipped me with the FACTS and underlying research to push back and advocate for myself in the hospital. Would recommend for any expectant mother!

I am SO happy I found this incredible podcast. After having two prior c-sections, I was convinced I would have to have another c-section for my birth this November. I feel empowered, educated, and hopeful I can do this! Thank you for all the true facts and a safe space we can all talk about our birth trauma and a space we don’t sound “crazy” for wanting to do something God created our bodies to do!

I recently discovered this amazing VBAC podcast and I am absolutely hooked! The host is incredibly knowledgeable and passionate about all things related to pregnancy, childbirth, and postpartum care. Each episode is packed with insightful information, personal stories, and practical tips for expectant mothers and families. I love how they bring on guest experts to cover a wide range of topics, making each episode engaging and informative. Whether you're a first-time mom or a seasoned parent, this podcast is a valuable resource that empowers and educates. I highly recommend tuning in and soaking up all the wisdom shared on this VBAC podcast!

To be able to write the words, I got my VBAC feels surreal. 2 years ago I gave birth to my daughter via cesarean and since the OR I have been dreaming of a vbac. It felt like a primal right I was robbed of. Yesterday I gave birth AT HOME, with gestational diabetes, to a 9 pound 2 ounce baby. I pushed him out of my vagina, pulled him out of the water and sobbed in joy / relished in my redemption and power. This would not have been possible without the vbac link! I listened EVERYDAY postpartum, sobbed and cheered with all the women of strength. I cannot recommend this podcast enough to all expecting parents. Thank you thank you thank you.

Listened to 10 episodes and found that the stories they choose to share are usually always the same with a twist. Didn’t find any episodes that said “a c section saved mine and my baby’s life”, so lots of bias and fear mongering from people who are selling female empowerment(maybe I’m missing the episode where the hosts say sometimes it’s ok to have a c section) . With all these birthing stories you would think I could relate with one but I find that the antidotes shared in this podcast are a really easy way to avoid talking about women that are actual statistical outliers.

I started listening to the VBAC Link podcast as I started my doula training in 2018 (I also trained through your doula program as well in 2022!). Even after working through so much since my own very necessary and life saving cesarean birth in 2015, your podcast continued to help me process and heal with each episode I listened to. Each story shared contains knowledge and experience that are so powerful for the world to hear. These stories are crucial to healing both for the story teller and us listening, as well as shedding light on both necessary and unnecessary cesareans and the opportunity to plan for a VBAC. Thank you for creating this podcast- the world is a better place because of it!

I started listening to this podcast shortly after my C-section in 2021. I had a 49 hour induction at 41 weeks and pushed for over 3 hours but wound up needing a C-section due to my son being OP and getting stuck. My surgery was traumatic and I wasn’t sure I wanted to have another child given the complications I experienced. In March of 2023 I unexpectedly became pregnant and immediately hired a doula and started interviewing providers. I used many of the tools and advice from the show to ensure I was set up for success such as seeing a chiropractor, pelvic floor PT, and much more. In November I went into spontaneous labor at 40+5 and had an unmedicated VBAC in the hospital. Thank you to this podcast and all the women who shared their stories. It gave me the confidence and information I needed to have the birth I desired.

I absolutely love listening to this podcast! It has been so helpful to me listening to all of the different stories of VBAC, CBAC, and HBAC mommas!!! I just entered my 2nd trimester and am preparing for my own VBAC and I love all the information that is provided through this podcast. You girls are amazing and I wish I lived in your area so you could be my birth doulas!!!

So glad I found this podcast when I needed it most! Have been listening since 2020, and it helped encourage me to go for that VBAC! Which I successfully just had 5 days ago, I got my VBAC!!! So useful and filled with information.

Cannot recommend enough. Listening to the VBAC link honestly changed the course of my life. The education and empowerment to be gained by listening is incredible. If you found this page, if you are reading or listening to this review, search no more. You found the podcast you need to listen to!

Megan and Julie have compiled all the research facts & statistics on VBAC (vaginal birth after Cesarian section) so you don’t have to spend hours upon hours doing it yourself! Listening to just the first 3 episodes of this podcast has made this CS momma feel seen, and is a great place to hear about how moms around the world have gotten their VBAC’s. I can truly believe now that my body is not broken, and I’m more empowered than ever that I’ll get the vaginal birth(s) I’ve always wanted!

Sooo thankful for the VBAC link. I had my VBA2C in March of 2023 and the vbac link was a huge part of my journey learning about what was possible. Thank u!!

I found your podcast near the beginning of my pregnancy with my 3rd baby. I had had 2 undesired c-sections and knew I didn’t want to put my body or my family through another if not absolutely necessary. This podcast gave me the tools and resources to decide for myself what was right for me! It gave me the motivation to keep looking when OBs would tell me I’d need a 3rd c-section. And it gave me strength hearing from all the women that pressed forward through the challenges and bumps along the way that pregnancy can bring! On Oct 17 at 40weeks and 2 days I got my VBA2C! Thank you so much for all you do!!

I learned about this podcast from a pregnancy app and at first I thought it was kind of silly because i didn’t know people struggled to have VBACs, until I started the process of finding a doctor and then I realized this wasn’t going to be as easy as I thought especially in the state that I live in, so I decided to give it a listen and then I listened to every single episode. I learned so much and shed so many tears. I didn’t feel alone anymore with my story because there were other women out there who went through what I did too. I needed this podcast, it was an important part of my journey to achieve my VBAC , which I did on 9/26/23. Thank you for every episode.

I listened to this podcast after my son was birth. I learned so much that I knew I wanted a VBAC for my second birth. When I became pregnant again, I would listened to this podcast during my walks. Thanks to the wealth of knowledge that I gained, I had my unmedicated VBAC in July 2023.

I won’t go into details about my first birth, but I will say I was devastated I ended up with a C-section. My mental and physical recovery was terrible! So I immediately knew when it was time for us to have our second I wanted a VBAC. I did a lot of research here and there, but when I got pregnant again, I really started diving in. I heard about this podcast and listened to it day in and day out! Driving in the car, while doing the dishes, in my walks with my toddler, if I couldn’t sleep at night, etc. I learned so much and was able to use this education to advocate for myself. I remembered what I learned through this podcast while I was in labor and it helped so much. I will say my TOLAC was AMAZING until it wasn’t. I made it to the pushing phase this time, but ultimately I wasn’t able to get my VBAC and it turned emergency c section. It was pretty traumatic. I will say I don’t regret TOLAC. I was prepared for another c section in the event something like this happened. I wasn’t prepared for the emergent part. But I’m working through it and I’m happy me and babe are here. There are so many unknowns during labor and delivery but all we can do is make the best choices based on our knowledge. I am soo happy you ladies do this! Keep it up 👏🏼

I started listening to this podcast after my C-section with my first son. As soon as I got pregnant with my second I started listening religiously and I truly don’t think I would have known enough to advocate for myself to get my VBAC had it not been for this podcast! I cannot recommend this podcast enough and not just to those attempting to VBAC but anyone who is pregnant or wanting to have a vaginal birth. I’ve been so busy with my two littles but I plan on sharing my story soon!

I just had my successful VBA2C and would love to thank the VBAC link podcast for motivating, educating and uplifting my spirit to help prepare myself for my VBA2C. I listened to the Vbac link podcast on my drives to work and while cleaning around the house. Each birth story brought so many emotions back to me relating to other mamas on birth trauma from our prior births and how deeply we dream of a VBAC. I recommend this podcast to anyone who wishes for a VBAC and also to any pregnant moms who just would love to hear birth stories and to educate themselves more on birth facts.

I first found this podcast in 2020 while in the depths of postpartum after a very traumatic unplanned cesarean with my first baby. I listened to every single episode as I struggled to process what had happened to me, and finally gathered up the courage to seek help for postpartum PTSD that I was experiencing. This podcast is a treasure trove of inspiring stories which helped me regain confidence in my body and have a beautiful VBAC with my second baby last year. Thank you for being such a huge part of my healing journey!

Just had my vbac! My pregnancy and birth changed all for the better thanks to this podcast and the women who shared their stories. This tool gave me the information I needed to advocate for me and my baby. I learned about the medical system and about myself. AND I had a fantastic birth as the icing on the cake. I can’t thank you all enough.

I listened to as many episodes as possible while preparing for my VBAC. The stories on here were SO encouraging to me and Megan is so knowledgeable and reassuring. I’m happy to say I had my unmedicated hospital VBAC last week and I CAUGHT MY OWN BABY before the doctor got in the room!