hey01:19humans hello how are you i’m01:22really glad to see some of you tuning in01:25i want to hear uh01:26hear from you those of you who are01:27online let me know where you’re watching01:29from01:30tell me how how the weather is there as01:32we’re moving into fall01:35really glad to have you here you’re01:37tuned into the tech humanist show01:39it’s a multimedia format program01:41exploring how data and technology shape01:43the human condition01:44i’m your host kate o’neil and i hope01:47you’ll subscribe and follow wherever01:49you’re01:50tuning in from so today we are talking01:53with renee cummings wait let me01:55let me uh before i read fantabulous bio01:59for our guest02:00i am i’m just gonna do uh one little02:04retweet here and make sure folks are02:06able to catch us from the tech humanist02:07twitter account02:08hey stu saunders checks in and says02:11great to see your smile thank you stu02:15i wish i could be seeing your smile too02:17but oh look you’re there in your uh02:20in your icon so good i’ve i’ve got you02:24who else is out there and tell me where02:25you’re where are you tuning in from02:28i’m i’m really excited this is going to02:30be a really02:31important and great discussion today so02:33i think you’re i think you’re really02:34going to enjoy it02:36let me go ahead and introduce our guest02:38and everybody else feel free to start02:39keep checking in and let me know where02:40you are and where you’re tuning in from02:44today we are talking with renee cummings02:46who’s a criminologist02:47and international criminal justice02:49consultant who specializes in artificial02:52intelligence02:53ethical ai bias in eai diversity and02:56inclusion in ai02:58algorithmic authenticity and02:59accountability data integrity03:02and equity ai for social good and social03:04justice in ai policy and governance03:07for seeing trends and anticipating03:08disruptions she is committed to diverse03:10and inclusive ai strategy development03:13using ai to empower and transform03:15communities and cultures03:17securing diverse and inclusive03:18participation in the 4ir03:20helping companies navigate the ai03:22landscape and developing future ai03:24leaders03:25a multicultural cross-connector of03:27multiple fields evidently as we can hear03:30and an innovative collaborator her03:31passion is forming connections03:33and unifying people and technologies03:36enhancing quality of life and economic03:38prosperity03:39she’s also a criminal psychologist03:41therapeutic jurisprudence and03:42rehabilitation specialist03:44substance abuse therapist crisis03:46intelligence crisis communication and03:48media specialist03:50creative science communicator and03:51journalist03:53that’s an impressive set of skills if03:54you ask me she has a solid background in03:56government relations03:57public affairs reputation management and04:00litigation pr04:01she’s a sought-after thought leader04:02which i can vouch for following her on04:04linkedin04:05and twitter all i see all day long are04:07like this is where i’m going to be this04:08is where i’m going to be i’m like how do04:09you have the time and energy in the day04:12which is why i’m really really glad she04:14can join us today she’s an inspirational04:16motivational speaker and mentor which i04:18think you’ll04:18you’ll get from listening to her today04:21and miss cummings is also04:22a columbia university community scholar04:25so04:25audience please start getting your04:27questions ready for our incredible04:29guest please do note that as a live show04:32while we’ll do our best to vet comments04:34and questions in real time we might not04:36get to all of them04:37but we very much appreciate you being04:38here and participating in the show04:41so with that please help me welcome04:44renee cummings renee04:47you are on the show let me have you um04:50lift up if you can04:51lift up your camera just a little bit or04:53uh04:54bring yourself up in the there we go04:56yeah i don’t want you cut off04:57on the screen there renee thank you so04:59much for being here05:01thank you so much for inviting me kate05:03it’s certainly an honor and a pleasure05:04to be with you oh my god05:06it’s my honor thank you uh little note05:09of administration let me go ahead and05:10have you do a little bit more if you can05:12bring if it’s a05:13laptop camera if you can bring it down05:15just a little bit05:16we’re cutting off you’re like here oh05:19perfect05:19perfect i don’t want you to look back at05:22it and see just this05:23uh now i see this much can we do a05:25little more perfect05:27i’m sorry we should have caught this05:29beforehand yes05:30it’s much better so renee after uh05:33reading that incredible list of05:34accomplishments and distinctions05:36i also just noticed on linkedin earlier05:39this week that you used to be a05:40sportscaster05:41is that right that’s true a very long05:44time ago05:46that’s an amazing career trajectory how05:48did that happen05:50well i started as a print journalist and05:52then i went into broadcast and while i05:54was in broadcast05:55i’ve always had this love for sport and05:57the station that i was working at did05:59not have05:59any woman doing sport so i saw it as an06:02opportunity to do something different06:04uh to have a little more fun on the job06:07and really uh put women06:08out there on camera doing sport and06:12it was a fantastic experience it06:14contributed so much to06:16who i am and it keeps me alive because i06:19still love sport and i think it06:20certainly gives me a particular energy06:22that keeps me going06:23yeah well you have such a presence you06:26have a great voice and presence for06:28being06:28on screen anyway so i can see where that06:31carries through to this day06:32what’s it like for you now as a fan of06:34sport watching all of these06:36athletes compete with no audiences06:38what’s that feel like06:40well that’s where we are now and it’s so06:42many things that have created that and06:43it’s so funny that06:45what’s happening in sport really informs06:47the work that i do when it comes to06:49social justice06:50uh racial justice and even looking at06:51things like racin and covet and how06:54covert06:54uh is really are changing covert 19 is06:57changing the ways in which we engage and06:59we interact and07:00how ai is now uh really uh creating a07:03new type of context07:05for what sport is going to look like and07:07what fans are going to look like moving07:09forward07:09yeah it’s also been really interesting07:11to see the intersection between07:13sport and social justice playing out07:15over the last few months07:16right with the the sort of um conscience07:19coming from i think the women’s nba07:21league seems like that then women’s07:23soccer has been doing a really great job07:24of07:25sort of leading the path and then nba07:27following and and07:28other other leagues stepping up and07:30saying well we’re going to either strike07:32or07:32we’re bringing the protest to the court07:34or the field that’s really encouraging07:36it seems like07:37to me how do you feel about that well07:39well it is and i think uh07:41for a very long time i think we’ve07:42celebrated men of color in sport on the07:45court and on the field07:46and i think what they’re saying now on07:48the street we need that kind of respect07:51as well so i think it is really powerful07:53and i think it’s something07:54that we’ve got to celebrate and07:55something that we’ve got to support07:57yeah wonderful thought in fact it’s a07:59really great transition it seems like to08:01to the topic of ai and technology08:03because i’ve seen where you have said08:06the line the phrase criminology must be08:09the conscience08:10of ai and i found that profound08:13i i think you know certainly for me it08:15seems like discussions of algorithmic08:17bias08:17are always sort of bouncing around near08:19the areas of law enforcement and08:21criminal justice and that’s an08:22overlap area in those conversations but08:25it’s rarer in my experience to08:27like plant the conversation there and08:29from the beginning and say let’s08:31design from here outwards and yet once08:34you08:35establish that orientation it makes08:36perfect sense so08:38how did you arrive at that insight in08:40your career08:41well i think i i entered uh ai08:45from the perspective of what was08:46happening in the courts and how risk08:48assessment tools08:49were being used to uh give a score as to08:52whether or not someone was going to08:53reoffend08:54and uh attaching risk assessment uh08:57tools to08:57recidivism rates and i felt that to be09:00uh something that was a bit too shaky09:02and what we saw with with criminal09:04justice is that many of the uh09:06high impact decisions happen there when09:09it comes to life of liberty when it09:11comes to life or death09:12and if you’re planning to use an ai or09:14an algorithmic09:15decision-making tool in the criminal09:17justice system09:18you cannot be using a tool that is so09:20opaque or a tool that’s providing09:23predictions that have overestimating09:25recidivism09:26and i felt that what i was seeing was09:28not uh09:29really a conscience when it came to the09:32use09:32of artificial intelligence in the09:34criminal justice system09:36because too many of the tools that were09:38being designed09:39were being designed from a place of bias09:42data a place uh where data was09:44discriminating and what i realized i was09:46seeing09:47is what i called uh guilty conscience ai09:50because now we’re seeing the pull back09:52we’re seeing the moratorium on09:54predictive uh policing on facial09:56recognition09:56uh technologies and many of the09:58technologies that are being designed10:00to uh lead what they call10:02intelligence-led policing or10:04or big data policing so i said that what10:06we really need are not only data10:08scientists10:09designing tools for criminal justice but10:11criminologists and criminalists and10:13criminal psychologists and other10:15individuals involved in the criminal10:17justice system10:18working alongside those data scientists10:20so it was really a call for a multi-uh10:23disciplinary approach to how we do ai in10:26criminal justice10:27and the fact that what we don’t want to10:29continue making10:30in the criminal justice system would be10:32the mistakes that we’ve made10:33in the past so why use new data why use10:36new technology sorry10:37to amplify old historic biases10:41that have kept us trapped yeah what a10:43brilliant observation10:44that is it’s because it seems to me that10:46it may be possible to think10:48of other applications of ai and10:49algorithmic decision making that stand10:51to affect10:53people more people in a broader range of10:55ways but it would be hard to think of an10:57application that has a greater chance of10:58doing more harm to11:00an individual’s rights liberty and11:02quality of life than11:03how law enforcement and criminal justice11:06uses11:06ai and other technologies right is that11:08affair11:09when you look at it when someone is11:11arrested when someone is incarcerated11:13and someone has a sentence to serve11:15think of how the families are impacted11:17think about what happens to a child when11:19a parent is incarcerated11:21what happens to the trajectory of that11:23child’s life11:24and then you start to see the social11:26cost of crime so it’s just not that one11:28individual11:29who is incarcerated but it’s families11:32and generations that are impacted by11:34that11:35so this is why i speak a lot about11:37intergenerational11:38trauma in data and the fact that we’ve11:40got to look at the data11:42and understand the history of the data11:45the psychology the sociology11:47behind it it’s just not numbers it’s11:49lives we’re playing with11:50yeah yeah and so when i think about11:54the tech the taxonomy of sorts of of ai11:57or algorithmic systems and how uh they12:00intersect with with criminal justice12:02um i i sort of imagine a few broad12:04categories like i think about law12:06enforcement i think about courts12:08and then i think about detention or12:10supervision uh of12:12sort of parole and that sort of thing12:14and so first of all my question to you12:15is is that a fair taxonomy12:17in terms of the breakdown of how you12:20know ai and other technologies12:21intersect with with law enforcement and12:23criminal justice12:25yeah definitely so it’s going to be the12:27police it’s going to be the courts and12:28it’s going to be corrections12:29that’s the triad in criminal justice12:31you’re going to find that those are12:33definitely the big categories where ai12:35would be applied okay and then within12:37within that uh do you find that you have12:39equal focus12:40across each of those areas or is it more12:43focused12:44is your focus more let’s say on law12:45enforcement because it’s sort of12:47you know top of the funnel and the most12:49urgent problem of policing and racial12:51disparities12:52well i think what we’re seeing right now12:54would be policing and the courts because12:56those are the two that are up front12:57we’re not seeing much what’s happening12:59in corrections because most of us don’t13:01exist behind the prison walls13:03but definitely there are things that are13:04happening there and what’s happening13:06and now and it’s something that i keep13:08speaking about it’s we’re creating13:10digital prisons13:11we’re using ai to create digital prisons13:14so13:14you don’t have to be behind the prison13:16walls to be serving13:17a sentence with this technology so13:20that’s how we’re using it when it comes13:21to13:22algorithmic policing when it comes to13:24the algorithmic decision-making systems13:26in the judicial system or when it comes13:28to e-incarceration or what’s happening13:30there13:31we are creating those digital prisms13:33outside13:34we are using the technology to create13:36what i call the13:37digital chokehold and this is why i’ve13:40been speaking so much and how13:42we fuse ai in criminal justice but13:44something that we don’t think about when13:46it comes to these risk assessment tools13:48they’re already being used in a juvenile13:50setting so how is that going to change13:52the trajectory13:54of a child’s life it’s being used in a13:56child protection case13:58so are we going to use an algorithm to13:59separate a parent and a child so we’re14:02not14:02seeing those other cases but those are14:05indeed as traumatic14:07and will have extraordinary impact on14:09the life outcomes of children14:11and families and generations yeah indeed14:14that really sounds like it14:15it’s a very serious and urgent14:17consideration what are the problems that14:19at each of the other levels so in court14:21systems14:22bias and prediction models and things14:23like that how how is ai14:25entering into that that process or that14:28part of the trial is probably14:30frustrating due process14:32particularly in the judicial system and14:34it’s overestimating risk for black and14:36brown people14:37so that is really a challenge given uh14:40the system itself14:42in corrections what we’re seeing is that14:44people are now14:45challenging algorithms to gain parole14:48to gain their freedom and and that14:50really is unfortunate14:52and you’ve had a few cases where uh14:54persons were formally incarcerated14:56returning citizens14:57had to challenge these vendors uh to get15:00their freedom to get the15:01parole board to say uh you know we’re15:03going to sign15:04uh that release so those are really15:07critical things15:08that we’re not thinking about when it15:10comes to ai15:11whether or not this technology is15:13accountable15:14whether or not it is transparent whether15:16or not it is explainable15:18do we have rights to peep into the black15:20box if someone is incarcerated and an15:23algorithm keeps saying that you’re a15:25risk15:25when you’ve done 15 years of good15:27behavior15:28when you are ready to to reconnect with15:31your family and to build back your life15:33and now you have to face an algorithm15:36that is unfair and indeed that’s why i15:38say15:38that criminal justice must be the15:40conscience of ai15:42because those are some big decisions15:46and we can’t leave those life and15:48liberty decisions15:49to an algorithm yeah or even15:52it seems like or even to a set of you15:55know software developers and designers15:57who are15:58uh bringing their own biases into the16:00design of those systems right so16:02that is one of the ideas that seems like16:04it needs to be exposed is16:05that the data models of course and the16:07biases that go into the data models16:09themselves16:10must be uncovered even before we can16:12talk about the bias16:13in the designs of algorithms in terms of16:14logic and flow and16:16you know rules and so on so that is part16:18of the discussion that happens i know16:20within16:21ai in a larger sense how often is that16:23part of the work16:24that you’re doing within these different16:26pieces of the the triad16:28uh in criminology well it’s it’s the16:31work that i’m doing now and this is16:32where my life is situated16:34really looking at data really trying to16:37understand what are we doing with this16:39data16:40and understanding that if people of16:42color had trust16:43issues with the criminal justice system16:45before ai16:47how can we trust the data that we’re16:49using now16:50so one of the things that i like to ask16:52you know when i look at bias16:54and discrimination and systemic racism16:56in the data and how it’s16:57baked into the data and how we keep16:59using this data to design17:01tools for the criminal justice system so17:04if you’re using data that’s been17:06gathered17:07from communities that have been over17:08policed of course the data17:10is not going to be as accurate as you17:13want that data to be17:14but i always ask you know when you look17:17at the history17:18in the country of enslavement when you17:21think about things like the slave codes17:23and the17:23fugitive our slave or you think of the17:2613 amendment or the the one drop rule or17:28the17:28three-fifths compromise and jim crow and17:31segregation17:32how do you remove that from the data how17:35do you take that history17:36of systemic racism out of that data and17:39if that history17:40is baked into your data sets what are17:43you going to produce with that17:45yeah that was actually a question i had17:46for you because i i noticed that there17:48was this17:49article that surfaced last week in the17:51route about17:52a judge asking harvard to find out why17:54so many black people were in prison and17:55they could17:56only find one answer systemic racism so17:59while that’s not18:00a tremendous surprise i think to anyone18:02who’s been paying attention18:03it’s a striking thing to have on record18:06and i wonder18:07when that kind of data exists in the18:09larger system around us18:10are there ai approaches and solutions18:14that could help potentially overcome18:15that or is it just a matter of18:18of governance and oversight you know in18:20the development of ai systems to make18:22sure that that’s not18:23furthering and deepening those those18:25issues18:27well i think there are many uh companies18:29right now particularly at this moment18:31where systemic racism seems to be on the18:34front burner18:35you know in every conversation there are18:37many uh designers who are presenting18:39tools18:40that are looking for risks you know18:42detecting and and monitoring and18:44managing risks and18:45uh they have bias and discrimination in18:47there and racism18:49but it’s bigger than that you’ve got to18:51go back to the subconscious18:52you’ve got to go back to the design18:54consciousness you’ve got to go back to18:56the18:57millions of dollars companies have spent19:00in implicit bias training19:02that really have not bore any type of19:04fruits19:05so you’ve got to think about that so19:07it’s going to take a combination of19:09thinking19:10it’s going to take a new type of19:11consciousness that we’ve got to develop19:14it’s going to take uh a lot of due19:16diligence19:17at the design table it’s going to take19:20vigilance19:21because you’ve got to be constantly19:23aware and we all have biases19:26we all have prejudices so we’ve got to19:28be constantly aware of these things19:30but it also calls for diversity and19:33equity19:34and inclusion as a risk management19:36strategy19:37it’s not going to be perfect yeah19:39there’s no way19:40i was just going to say there’s no way19:41for people to to19:43understand the diversity of experiences19:45unless there’s a diverse group of people19:46at the table participating and building19:48systems right i mean that19:50makes sense to me diversity in itself19:53just doesn’t uh19:54create an ai system that’s perfect but19:56at least we will know that certain19:58checks and balances20:00have been applied at least we know that20:02what we are producing20:04a certain or requisite level of due20:06diligence has been applied20:08but i think uh from being in this area20:11right now20:12where it comes to diversity equity20:13inclusion in a digital space20:15i keep asking myself you know what is it20:18about diversity that intimidates20:20what is it about inclusion that breeds20:23fair20:24what is it about equity that makes us so20:26territorial and tribal20:28because we are many years along20:31but we still seem to need a different20:34kind of formula20:36a different kind of engagement to get20:38these things right20:40so you had a story i heard on one20:42interview one discussion you talked20:44about a study that had been done20:46at stanford uh can you i i you seem like20:49you know the study i’m talking about can20:51you give us the lay of the land on that20:53well it was just a basic study that20:54looked at implicit bias and i think what20:56the scholars were trying to do and this20:58is what they do now in law enforcement21:00as well21:01when they do this shoot don’t shoot uh21:03sort of simulation21:04uh trying to introduce positive images21:07of black men21:08to see the kind of response that you’re21:10going to get so maybe if you were to put21:12the face of you know non-threatening a21:14black man maybe uh21:15will smith i don’t know right so they21:18were putting friendlier faces21:20trying to see what the impact would be21:22and they realized that when they21:23introduced these are friendly faces21:25handsome faces uh good-looking you know21:28young agile21:30men young black men the uh perspective21:33change but how long did it last21:35and that is what they were saying it21:36lasted for a week for two weeks so three21:38weeks and then we fall21:39back into our behavior because that’s21:42how does the psyche work21:44and and that’s how we work think about21:46it like a diet you know sometimes you21:47start a diet21:48and it’s working and then we see a piece21:50of chocolate cake or whatever it is that21:52we like and we slip right back into old21:54behavior21:54so this is why i’m saying it calls for a21:56different kind of consciousness21:58it calls for an eternal kind of22:00vigilance it calls for that kind of due22:02diligence22:03it calls for at the design table you22:06know intellectual curiosity22:07and intellectual confrontation to ensure22:10that those things are part22:12of the risk management strategy so it’s22:14it’s just not only designing22:16a risk culture or encouraging a risk22:18culture22:19in a a tech organization but it’s about22:21drilling down22:22deeper into that and understanding that22:25we’ve got to ask the tough questions22:27understanding that the answers are going22:28to make us very uncomfortable22:31but it is in the uncomfortable answers22:34in that kind of conflict that we can22:36really build22:37the systems that we need yeah i feel22:39very called out about the chocolate cake22:41though22:43especially during covid times right hey22:46so our friends at all tech as human have22:48piped in on youtube and ask is there a22:51visual way we can better understand the22:53concerns around the power of an22:55algorithm to shape our society and then22:57they elaborate and said for example22:59every news story runs with a pick23:01like terminator or pepper or sophia or23:03handshake with a robot23:04what’s the best way to represent what23:06we’re talking about here is there a23:08metaphor23:08is there a visual that that you use or23:10can think of23:12well actually i usually speak about that23:14you know that that uh robot stepping out23:16of the sky or the two hands are they’re23:18going to judge23:18i think we’ve got to think about how do23:20we rebrand that because23:22so many people are using the technology23:25right now but they don’t know that they23:27are using it so most people are still23:29waiting for ai to come ai is here23:31it is super powerful super pervasive and23:34i think23:34people have got to understand that this23:37is something that can have an23:38extraordinary impact23:39on society i am very passionate about23:42the technology23:43but passionate about the ethical use of23:46the technology the responsible use23:48of the technology ai we can trust so i23:51think we’ve got to build23:52images that look as though23:55trust is at the center that look as23:58though they can build23:59public confidence because i think uh to24:02ensure24:02ai maturity we have got to ensure24:06diversity equity and inclusion is part24:08of that or as we’re going to have a24:09technology24:10that is very immature so i think things24:13that build confidence24:15things that build trust and and really24:17things that show that24:19each of us have the opportunity24:22to use this technology to do things that24:25are better24:27i love that because it’s actually one of24:28the recurring questions that i ask24:31uh guests from time to time is you know24:34what24:35what makes you most optimistic about24:37when when you think about tech and the24:39future of human ex24:40experiences are there applications of24:42tech that you get really excited about24:44and that maybe even fill you with hope24:45and the good that you that they can do24:47and i want to hear your answer but i24:48also wanted24:49to note that it sounds like you you have24:51already given at least an indication of24:53you know the idea that ai can help us24:56lead better lives right24:57what is it that that makes you hopeful24:59about that25:00well i am it’s an it’s a very powerful25:03uh suite of technologies when you think25:05of artificial intelligence25:07what it can do when it comes to25:08communication and connectivity25:11and connecting people who are apart i25:13mean that’s brilliant25:14what it could do in healthcare it’s25:16absolutely amazing25:18the kind of change that ai can make in25:20healthcare25:21just about every industry ai can have25:24an extraordinary impact that could25:26really uh25:28create a world postcovid25:32that uh you know can be much better than25:34the world that we were in25:35you know before so i’m very passionate25:38about it i’m very passionate25:40but i’m also passionate about doing it25:43right25:44not creating any harm with the25:45technology25:47inclusive innovation ethical technology25:51those are the things25:52that i’m passionate about about ai25:54justice25:55and and my uh passion is about using ai25:59to create justice at scale26:02using ai in positive ways in the26:05criminal justice system26:07you know i think what we’re doing now26:09with it just trying to catch26:10criminals you know that26:13you know it’s just the basic26:16let’s take it to the next level so26:18unimaginative26:22yeah i know that and that’s beautiful i26:24mean i you really touched me when you26:25said justice at scale26:27because that really feels like it’s an26:28important way to think about26:31you know what’s possible to me a lot of26:32my work i talk about as human experience26:35at scale or meaningful human experience26:37at scale so just26:38as at scale makes complete sense to me26:40and26:41i think you know i would love to to push26:43you a little further on that like26:45what does justice at scale look like in26:48applications like26:49what what would we see if we saw ai and26:52emerging technologies helping26:54shape a world around us that had justice26:56at scale26:58i think what we will see is this27:00technology27:01and technologists working with27:03data-driven technologies27:05understanding that in at every data27:08point27:09or every data set has a certain27:12amount of tragedy and trauma attached to27:15it27:16and we’ve got to think about that and27:17that’s something i learned working in27:19homicide you know you would see27:21the statistics you know the homicide27:23rate but then27:24to every individual there was27:28a partner a family a generation27:31attached to that and much of the work27:33that i did with therapeutic27:34jurisprudence which is27:36pretty much using the law in a27:38therapeutic way27:39looked at the impact of children how a27:42child’s life27:43changes if a parent or a caregiver is27:48murdered27:48and there is no justice or if justice is27:52delayed27:53or you know we don’t think about how it27:55impacts27:56generations and intergenerational trauma27:58in data is something that i am28:00a very very passionate about oh that’s28:03interesting yeah i mean we hear about28:06intergenerational trauma but i hadn’t28:08thought of intergenerational trauma in28:09data how do you see that modeled in data28:12well this is what i’m working on now and28:14this is what i’m thinking about and this28:16is where28:17where i am when it comes to28:18understanding that and this is how28:20criminology and criminal psychology28:23and therapeutic jurisprudence and the28:24work that i’ve done uh when it comes to28:26being a substance abuse therapist28:27working28:28in rehabilitation this is how it it28:30fuses with a.i28:32uh to really think of new ways of28:35ensuring that justice is served28:37in real time ensuring that children28:39don’t become28:40collateral damage and understanding that28:43we really have got to28:44use this technology in the criminal28:47justice system28:48in more positive ways looking for28:50positive outcomes28:51as opposed to what we’re seeing right28:53now that’s i28:55i love the imagination you use with that28:57but it’s28:58fused with empathy right and that makes29:00it brings it all right back around to29:02that whole ai29:03uh you know that criminology is the29:05conscience of29:06ai or should be uh so that’s a that’s29:08everything that i do29:09comes from a place of compassion and29:11empathy and i think we’ve got to think29:13about29:14also fusing that with technology29:18i love that so i think too about29:21you know you talked about earlier about29:23um about surveillance and29:25and other deployments of of what really29:28are ai29:28in some level you’re the ceo of urban ai29:32right uh so clearly a lot of predictive29:35policing is deployed through the mesh of29:36city infrastructure and increasingly the29:39the promise of29:40smart cities quote unquote so how do we29:42go about ensuring that we can reap the29:44benefits of ai and emerging tech29:46in cities which you know i think anyone29:49can agree that there’s there’s some29:50benefit that can happen from that the29:52smart monitoring of29:53resource availability and utilities and29:55sanitation and so on29:57without further enabling surveillance30:00and broken windows policing and30:01disproportionate policing of30:03marginalized communities30:04what’s the work that we need to do there30:07well you know covert 19 has sort of30:09toppled that smart cities model30:12and it’s not a model it’s a model that’s30:14trying to rebrand right at this moment30:17because so much of cities is going to30:19have to be contactless and what you’re30:21seeing30:22is an escape out of the cities as30:24opposed to what we had had30:25prior so cities may be a pretty empty30:27place uh30:28as we move forward so but when it comes30:31to smart cities and when it comes to30:32that whole concept of urban ai30:34urban ai is really about bringing ai30:37into an urban space30:38so there are two things there’s a part30:39that really looks at how do we use30:42ai to ensure that resources in cities30:45are equitable that the individuals who30:48are living in the cities30:49are just not only are there existing30:52but they have a stake in what this city30:54looks like and what this city feels like30:56and the only thing that we’re30:57are going to do in the cities would be30:59surveillance no uh the the only31:01application so far when it came to crime31:04and criminal justice and31:06criminality in the smart city space was31:08surveillance technology31:10and it’s much more than that but it’s31:12also about31:13understanding the demographics of the31:15cities and understanding who lives in31:17the cities31:18and understanding that we’ve got to31:20empower all31:22people all demographics we’ve got to31:25look because in our cities it’s where we31:26find31:27our disenfranchised off you know31:29underserved under-resourced31:31disinvested marginalized communities so31:34what the smart city model was doing31:36was building a city within a city31:38because it did not include31:40those marginalized communities in their31:42plans31:43and if you don’t invite people to the31:46party31:48what happened it’s not a very good party31:54i mean yeah that and that’s a it’s a31:57really31:58important observation you and i are both31:59in new york city right32:01yeah so we’re both here in a big city uh32:04that is as you say32:06a little emptied out uh in the wake of32:08covid uh or during covet i don’t like it32:10when people are talking about covet in32:11the past tense it’s like32:12it’s still going on people no it’s still32:14here right right32:16um but but i love the idea of of32:19thinking about32:20the the more creative imaginative ways32:23that we can use ai32:24and and bring that equity to different32:26communities32:27one of the things that it seems like32:28that calls to mind is there’s you know32:30of course the big uh movement right now32:33for32:34um uh defronting and even maybe32:37abolishing32:38police in different communities and then32:40the the reinvestment32:41into community policing or community um32:45you know management policies okay32:47perfect community-led policing32:49yeah community legislation so i think32:51and i don’t know32:52another community resources right32:55definitely so i think what we need to32:56see and what i’m hoping to do32:58with some of the uh the projects that33:00i’m working on right now33:02is empowering i think what ai also needs33:04is is more diverse33:05stakeholder engagement so so far we’ve33:08been designing technologies33:10that are re-victimized re-marginalize33:12communities when you’re thinking about33:14the33:14deployment of surveillance technologies33:16into a disinvested community33:18ah what we do need is to educate people33:20in communities all these technologies33:22that are being used against them uh they33:25need to understand the kind of digital33:26force33:27that’s now being applied against them33:29and one of the things that i have been33:31seeing when it comes to33:32algorithmic policing would be uh the33:35digital subpoenas33:37are doing things like uh you know33:38geofacing uh warrants and33:40geolocation warrants and and we’re33:43creating what i call you know the33:44digital handcuffs and the digital choco33:46we’re doing all of these things33:47with algorithm but all of it is focused33:50on marginalized communities33:52disinvested communities communities that33:54are already culturally alienated33:56communities that need resources so what33:59we need to use this technology to do34:02is to really empower communities because34:04what we’ve been doing uh34:06in these early stages of ai would be34:07disempowering communities34:09and what we really need to do is34:11democratize this technology34:13so people in in communities understand34:15how their data34:16could be weaponized against them people34:19need to understand34:20the power of their data this is why data34:22advocacy34:23is so important because data is a part34:26of your civil rights34:27it’s a part of your human rights and34:29most people are just not there yet34:31uh when it comes to understanding as we34:33would say the social dilemma34:35of data so people have got to think34:37about that but definitely more34:39community-led uh policing34:40which means communities need to decide34:42what type of resources34:44are required in the communities because34:46i mean i’ve been in policing for a very34:47long time34:48it really doesn’t make sense when a34:50community is disenfranchised34:52when a family is already traumatized34:54where you have intergenerational trauma34:55and free floating anger34:57to apply law enforcement to that that is34:59not the solution that you’re looking for35:01so definitely community-led uh policing35:05strategies as well as greater35:07stakeholder engagement35:09between communities and law enforcement35:12in designing35:13the kinds of strategies that are35:14required35:16yeah that’s a really super important35:18area and i i it seems like such a35:20wonderful time for it right now that35:22that intersection is happening between35:24the growth and the discourse around ai35:27and this movement35:28around uh reforming police and and35:31thinking35:32more creatively about community35:35solutions35:36uh and reinvesting in those communities35:38uh definitely because it’s about racial35:40justice and it’s about social justice35:42and it’s really about policing35:44rethinking itself and every35:46uh change in policing has been attached35:49to a social movement35:50so uh when we think about uh the war35:53when we think about vietnam35:54and how police had to change their35:56strategies uh when we think about35:58uh the gay rights uh liberation movement36:01and that36:02and stonewall and how that impacted uh36:04law enforcement36:05and when you think about uh the civil36:07rights and and36:08and the movement pre-civil rights and36:10how that impacted law enforcement36:12this is impacting law enforcement as36:14well so law enforcement also has to36:16rebrand36:16has to rethink reposition and understand36:19that36:20you know you’ve got to you have got to36:24treat communities with dignity and36:27respect and i think we’ve got to bring36:30that back into the question36:34i love that that’s so important when you36:36think about36:38regulations and protections that those36:40that are in place now those that you36:42think are most vital to get into place36:44which ones come to mind as as the most36:47important to protect36:49uh the most vulnerable and marginalized36:51from wrongful prosecution uh whether it36:53be through36:54faulty facial recognition or flawed36:56algorithmic models that36:57disproportionately identify black and36:59brown suspects or anything like that37:00what what do we need still37:03i think what we need at this stage is to37:05do an audit37:06and all the technologies that are out37:08there when it comes37:10to surveillance our law enforcement37:13uh how technologies are being used37:15because i don’t think we have done that37:16audit just yet37:18i think there needs to be an education37:20so people have got to be educated37:22about their digital rights as you’re37:24educated about your civil rights and37:25your human rights37:27you’ve got to be educated about how ai37:30informs37:31or your rights i think there are37:33frameworks out there that we have been37:35using but they’ve been very broad37:37so we have the uh gd uh you know the37:40general37:40data protection we have that we have the37:42california consumer37:44privacy we have the illinois we have37:45there’s several you know there’s the37:46algorithmic37:47accountability so they’re all of these37:49things that are out there and there’s so37:51many every day it’s a new framework37:53every day it’s the new ethical framework37:55that’s being applied37:56but one of the things that i keep37:57realizing from some of these frameworks37:59is that uh they lack uh they mention38:02diversity equity38:04and inclusion but they all come from a38:07very38:08uh western and eurocentric perspective38:11so when you look at the committees and38:13you look at the groups and you look at38:15the designers38:16there’s a total lack of diversity equity38:18and inclusion but they’ve become great38:20slogans you know everybody’s talking38:22about it but how do we operationalize38:24this38:24in real time how do we make this change38:27meaningful and sustainable and how do we38:31do38:32things that speak to a particular kind38:35of truth and i think we we’re just not38:38there yet38:39so uh when it comes to what’s out there38:42we have got to understand38:44that many of the technologies because so38:46many of these technologies are being38:47designed38:48not in clandestine but being designed uh38:51not in the open you know there’s a lack38:52of38:53many of them are not are done through38:55public procurement or many of them are38:56being funded by private agencies38:59uh private companies our brands so we39:01really don’t know what law enforcement39:03what the justice system39:04or what the companies who are designing39:06for them are coming up with39:07so this is why it’s so critical for39:10individuals to be39:11educated on their digital rights and to39:14build39:15that kind of public understanding it’s39:16only going to make the technology better39:19yeah i agree that makes total sense and39:21it it’s long overdue and i love39:23your point that so many of you know gdpr39:26in california and all of the other39:28things39:29there there is you say it is this kind39:30of glancing blow at diversity like oh39:33let’s39:33include diversity in there but it’s not39:35everybody’s talking about it now39:37yeah yeah but he’s talking about it it’s39:40not oriented from there it’s not39:42saying hey let’s make sure that this is39:43a truly inclusive framework39:46and start from there and then build out39:48then design39:49out from there definitely yeah so39:52that that’s beautiful you know a lot of39:54your work seems to have to do and even39:56your your background39:57includes uh psychology and so on so it39:59seems to have to do with understanding40:02sociology and neuroscience and and so on40:04uh so40:05with so much focus at the in the moment40:08within companies and organizations on40:10trying to improve40:11diversity and inclusion and reduce40:12biases and you also made a reference a40:14little while ago about how40:16you know some of that bias training has40:18been ineffective40:20what do you find about whether we can40:22unlearn40:23bias and privilege and even racism and40:25and what do we need to do40:27to do that what what’s the emphasis that40:29we need to to put forward40:31in in society for that so40:34it’s not easy no it’s certainly not40:37going to be easy it’s like unlearning40:38violence and that’s where i work you40:40know really trying to40:41bring people back people who are using40:43violent children who are using violence40:45um but it comes to exposure and one of40:48the things we say when it comes to40:49violence is the greatest predictor of40:51someone going to use violence40:53in their adult life is early exposure to40:56violence so40:57think about it when it comes to things40:58like systemic racism41:00and it really goes back into the41:03individual41:04the family the mind and i think what41:07we’ve got to do41:08again uh particularly when it comes to41:11understanding that a half-day course in41:15implicit bias of subconscious bias41:17is not going to do it it’s not going to41:19do it41:20or just saying that i’m not racist or41:22saying that i’m anti-racist41:24or just saying things we’ve got to start41:27to see action because now41:28there’s a lot of talk there’s a lot of41:30talk in all these companies everybody41:32wants to41:33invest now in black excellence and41:35that’s a great thing because there’s a41:36lot of black excellence to invest41:38in but what we really need to see are41:41the systems41:42changing we really need to see the41:44organizations41:45changing we really need to see the41:48country thinking41:49in a different way as well it’s hard41:52work41:52but i think we all can do it i’m very41:55optimistic41:56i’m very optimistic i think what we need41:59is a little more imagination42:01we’ve got to look at the imagination of42:03the individuals who are designing42:05and how implicit bias informs the42:08subconscious imagination and uh i think42:11there are ways42:12in which we can really deconstruct and42:15and rebuild42:16but i think as i say we’ve got to be42:18bold enough to have those uncomfortable42:20conversations42:21and we’ve got to be brave enough to42:23create room at the table42:26and invite people who don’t look like42:29us yeah to sit discuss42:32build together make it a better party as42:35you say42:36right i’m all for a better party what42:39seems like one of the complementary42:41issues there42:41is that of representation right uh so42:45people too often seeing people who look42:48like them42:48imprisoned or arrested or depicted as42:51being imprisoned or arrested42:53and it seems like that must do a number42:55on people’s psyches and identities i42:57would imagine well it’s42:59it’s more than that you know everything43:00is attached to history and when you look43:02at uh some of the ads43:04the advertisements uh from the uh43:07time just after uh enslavement43:09emancipation43:10and the fugitive uh slave flavor and the43:13kinds of ads43:14that were created when an uh an african43:17uh american individual43:18uh ran away from the plantation or43:20decided and you looked at the kinds of43:22ads that were put out there43:24there are certain images that were43:25created certain stereotypes43:27of individuals that were created so i43:29think there’s a stereotype43:31sometimes in people’s minds that when we43:33see black or brown we see criminal and43:35and43:36it really a lot of people for them that43:38changes particularly if you43:39have diverse experiences particularly if43:41you’ve traveled to other countries i43:43mean i am originally from trinidad43:45and tobago so i come from a country that43:47is very diverse43:49a country that’s very cosmopolitan in my43:51own family43:52i’m a mixture of afro trinidadian and43:55asian trinidadian so i have a43:57history of my family uh having lives43:59before44:00in india as well as in africa so i come44:02from a very diverse perspective44:04which makes me understand uh the beauty44:07and44:08i see beauty in all things so i think we44:10really need to embrace a more44:11multicultural44:12uh perspective and i i always believe in44:15honesty44:16and sometimes honesty hurts but you have44:19to go through that process you’ve got to44:22go through that process44:24and this is why i’m saying empathy44:26compassion44:27in ai this is why i’m saying we’ve got44:29to reimagine44:30ai ethics some of it looks really good44:33on paper44:34it sounds really exciting on paper but44:36what you’re seeing at the companies44:38what you’re seeing on the advisory44:39boards what you’re seeing is not44:41diversity equity and inclusion44:43so we really you know let’s start with a44:46place of honesty and i think we can44:47build from there yeah that’s fair enough44:49it also seems like you know there’s a44:51wide range of places where44:53representation can be improved right44:55like44:56vr we talked about this in a recent44:58episode uh44:59gaming i think i i heard you talk about45:01uh games and and the representation of45:03you know the difference between the45:04developers versus the consumers and45:06players of those games45:08uh you had a great quote something about45:11why can’t a black man45:12or black boy ride a dragon i think that45:14was a well i’ve read that that was45:15something that i actually read in45:17a magazine i had quoted that and it45:19really was you know45:20what about a black superhero and you45:22know let’s i mean we saw you know45:24a black superhero in the black panther45:26you know you know bless lest his soul45:28rest in peace uh45:29chadwick but you know what about when45:31are we going to get some more of those45:33and really it’s about45:34the imagination and this is what i can45:36keep saying what45:37informs the imagination does implicit45:40bias inform the imagination45:42so if we’re imagining if we’re using45:44this great technology45:45to design uh something that is new why45:48do we keep replicating45:50old stories biased traditions45:53all ways of thinking and operating that45:55we45:56are using new technology to create yeah45:59and it seems like especially46:01you know we we have evidence now i mean46:03black panther was46:04such a highly grossing film and uh the46:06spider-verse movie did really really46:08well and there’s been so many great46:10examples of46:11you know if you if you build it they46:12will come right like we need to actually46:14just46:15acknowledge that there’s a a market46:17dying for it and46:18plenty of multicultural consumers will46:20be out there46:22so hopefully fingers crossed you know46:24you talked earlier about46:26so much of the emphasis with ai and46:28criminology being on46:30uh policing and communities and street46:32crime but i i also46:34noticed that when we think about that46:35intersection of of ai and crime there’s46:37also46:38the angle of maybe new crimes that can46:41be committed46:42through the interventions of technology46:45right so46:45identity frauds cyber security financial46:48schemes and so on so i actually heard46:49you use the expression46:51crimes of the sweets in contrast to46:53crimes of the streets which is46:55brilliant i love a little word play do46:57you spend much of your time in that46:58space examining you know whatever types47:01of new crimes ai could help facilitate47:03and47:03and helping build that uh sort of47:06infrastructure47:07too to deal with that well actually47:11i’ve not been doing a lot of that right47:13now but it’s something that i47:14had done you know i’ve done in the past47:16so i do look at new crimes it’s47:18something that i i’m just doing on my47:20own looking at47:21new crimes but also uh i did a lot of47:23work on investigating white-collar crime47:26and the uh psychology of white-collar47:28crime and47:28profiling white collar criminals and47:30this is why i’m saying that47:31so many of the tools that are being47:33designed are all focused47:34on the street you know the low-hanging47:36fruit uh let’s use the technology to47:39to really look at other spaces uh where47:41crimes has happened and of course you47:42know there’s much work happening47:44in cyber security and looking for those47:46bad actors but there are other things47:48that we can do47:48uh when it comes to using the technology47:51and just not investing47:52in repo you know in over policing47:54communities that have been so47:56traumatized47:56by law enforcement in the past there’s47:58so much more money to be made from48:00prosecuting those big48:02big crimes anyway but you wouldn’t think48:05that right right one is just on the48:06streets48:07yeah it really does it’s like one note48:09it doesn’t play48:11right now it seems like also there’s a48:13with the release of the social dilemma48:15as you48:15alluded to earlier a lot of people are48:17chattering about tech addiction48:19and how we need to break our harmful48:20relationships with social media but48:22i’ve also heard a number of compelling48:24arguments from underrepresented48:26communities about how48:27important social media has been in48:28offering access and reach and48:30amplification48:32to you know voices who might not have48:33otherwise had a platform so48:35do you have strong feelings about the48:37healthiest framing here of the balance48:39between those those sort of pulls and48:40that dichotomy48:42well it’s about balance it’s definitely48:44about balance but i think what we saw48:46in particular when it came to the social48:48dilemma48:49would be a different kind of a form of48:51enslavement digital enslavement that’s48:53what48:53that was presenting but we also saw48:56undue influence48:57and manipulation and exploitation and49:00grooming49:01of children and that’s a particular kind49:04of abuse so49:05when you’re looking at designing these49:07ethical frameworks you’ve got to really49:09look at the49:10impact of technology that level of undue49:12influence that technology has49:14but of course it’s very i mean social49:16media is very powerful49:18uh and it’s done extremely uh positive49:20things so49:21in everything it’s about balance it’s49:23about bringing the requisite kind of49:25balance this is why i’m saying that49:26um it’s about data serenity it’s it’s49:29about49:30that and it’s about data ownership as49:32well and as much as we have49:34conversations about civil rights and49:36about49:36human rights we’ve got to start to have49:38conversations49:39about digital rights data is a new49:42language that we are using49:44uh most of us uh you know speak whatever49:47is the language of our mother tongue we49:49speak that49:50but we’re also speaking another language49:52and we’ve got to look at data and49:53algorithms49:54as a new language and we’ve got to49:56create the requisite uh kind of literacy49:58programs49:59to empower people so they can understand50:01what’s going on with their data50:03yeah it’s like in that metaphor i guess50:04what you know the language is being50:06spoken all around us50:07and some of us have the privilege of50:09understanding that language but many50:11many people50:12who are subject to the whims of that50:14language do not speak that language do50:16not understand that language and haven’t50:18had it explained to them so50:20that seems like a really important it’s50:22a i think what all tech is human was50:24asking for earlier with a sort of50:26a visual there’s a there’s a metaphor50:28that seems like it’s a really useful one50:32yeah so i also noticed a line in one of50:34your bios that described what you do as50:36using50:36ai to save lives which is a beautiful50:39turn of phrase50:41i wondered about the model that you50:43conceive of or the framework in your50:45mind as you think about that i often50:46refer to the united nations50:48sustainable development goals as a model50:50for what i think ai can align with50:52in trying to create a better world do50:54you use any different50:55framework or taxonomy of the ways in50:56which ai can be used to save lives50:59well i use the the taxonomy of the51:01streets as a criminologist when it comes51:04to saving lives and saving lives is not51:06just only about51:07life and death there are some lives that51:09are existing right now51:10that need to be saved lives that have51:12been impacted by the criminal justice51:14system51:15lives that have been impacted by51:17homicide and by violence51:19and by trauma and intergenerational51:21trauma there are lots of people walking51:23around51:24with a lot of pain and those lives are51:26lives that feel as though51:28they’ve been lost so yes i think about51:31ai within the concept of doing no harm51:33thinking about things like autonomous51:35vehicles and autonomous uh51:37weaponry and how these things could51:39impact and cause death51:40that’s real that’s real and but i also51:43think about trauma51:44and and saving lives from trauma and not51:47re-traumatizing communities and and51:50continuing to re-victimize communities51:52with data51:53and this is where i come back to me uh51:56finding ways to now look51:58at intergenerational trauma in data52:01and how do we remove that trauma how do52:04we create52:04a risk assessment tool that looks at52:07that and that’s why it’s so important so52:09definitely using ai to save lives and52:12really using ai52:13to build better futures yeah that gives52:15me chills on the back of my head that’s52:17such an52:17it’s such an imaginative uh sort of52:20combination of the idea of that52:21intergenerational trauma and the idea of52:23data and technology and trying to find52:25you know what is a pattern that can be52:28understood and how can we52:30how can we manage this and then pull52:31this out and uh that’s52:33it’s brilliant and so i’m so impressed52:35with you that’s where i’m52:37doing my work right now and that’s where52:38my mind is right now52:41well you know one other question i have52:44for you is52:45when you think about what we could do in52:47culture to stand a better chance of52:49bringing about the best futures52:51with technology rather than the worst52:53futures you know everybody seems to love52:54this kind of framing of dystopia versus52:56utopia and52:57i think we’re in alignment on the idea52:59that it’s it’s not53:00either or it’s kind of always both and53:02you you have to do the work53:04to steer it toward the best outcome so53:06what what do you think we can do in53:08culture53:09to to bring about those better those53:11better futures53:13i think we’ve got to understand uh of53:15course uh representation53:17is critical we’ve got to amplify our53:19voices53:20all voices need to to be heard i believe53:23always in collective53:24responsibility and individual53:26responsibility but53:28also it it really calls for53:31greater stakeholder engagement and53:33that’s something that i’ve not been53:35seeing53:35with ai i keep saying that ai speaks to53:38ai53:39data scientists speak to data scientists53:42and that’s what we’ve been seeing53:43so we definitely need a more53:46multi-disciplinary53:47approach we need more criminologists53:49more social workers more educators more53:51psychologists53:52we need to bring different types53:56artists different type musicians are you53:59know53:59into the conversation because this is a54:03technology as i said to you i’m so54:04passionate about it54:06it’s power it’s potential it’s54:07pervasiveness and and its promise54:10it’s extraordinary promise but we’ve got54:13to ensure that promise is for54:14all and we’ve got to look at the54:17inherent uh privilege54:19and power in this technology and we’ve54:22got to54:23try to find more ways to do more54:26stakeholder diverse54:28stakeholder engagement in ai54:31and we’ve got to bring more diverse54:33voices in the technology54:35and i think because of the lack of54:38diversity54:39and inclusion i i think uh54:42you know the imagination of ai54:46is being cheated54:49yeah that i like the way you put that54:52because it does feel like to me some of54:53the things that54:54we’ve talked about here today and that54:55i’ve heard you speak about since i’ve54:57been54:57following your work are far more54:59imaginative and creative than i hear55:02in any other from any other expert in55:05any other any other circle55:06and i think it does probably stem from55:08you know this55:09reorientation you saying criminology has55:13to be the conscience of ai55:14and what i feel like you mean and this55:16may be not correct but what i’m going to55:18tell you what i55:19hear is the idea that we need to55:23really understand the humanity of those55:26in the criminal justice system is that a55:29fair way to characterize that55:30we’ve got to we’ve got to and how do55:33they enter the criminal justice system55:35how do they enter and why is it that a55:37particular group55:39enters faster than any other group and55:41spends more time55:42in there why is that what is wrong with55:45the system what is wrong with society55:48and i think we don’t understand the55:51impact of55:52trauma but we experience it55:56we don’t understand how it impacts a55:59generation56:01how it impacts a generation and how many56:04people in a family56:08become victims of that experience and i56:12think56:12one of the things that we’re seeing yes56:15when it comes to ai56:16is that you know we think that somehow56:19uh criminal justice and persons who are56:21incarcerated56:22and persons with a propensity or56:24proclivity to56:26you know to do crime or people who’ve56:28done56:29crime before or people who have a56:31criminal record people who are known to56:33the police56:33somehow it makes them open season and it56:36doesn’t56:36it doesn’t make them open season to56:38create technologies56:40uh to further uh56:43traumatize or victimize or those56:46community it doesn’t56:47and i think we’ve got to think about56:49that we’ve got to think about that and56:51when we look at the criminal justice56:53data it’s data that56:54i’ve worked with for many years how do56:56you enter a gang database56:58how do you get into that you could be in57:00the community you could be on the street57:02you could be at the street corner57:03where there’s a rest done uh police you57:06know there’s sometimes57:07there could be victimization included in57:10that data57:11mistaken identity how does a 10 year old57:14or 11 year old57:15end up in a gang database so the fbi57:17database maybe we’ve got to think about57:20how we’ve been collecting criminal57:22justice data57:23and if we’re using that to design57:25technology what are we going to get57:28yeah yeah i i think57:31what i wanted to also point out or57:33include here is a link to our our peers57:35our colleagues over at57:37all tech as human have published this57:40responsible tech57:41guide in which you are featured and i am57:44but you are57:45you’re profiled in this uh in this guide57:48and i think there’s gonna be some value57:50for uh57:52for our listeners for our audience here57:54to57:55to look into this and understand a wider57:58array57:59of you know the kind of brilliance it’s58:01a brilliant document i call it a jewel i58:03think david has given us a gift58:05and i really appreciate the work that58:06he’s been doing and his great team at58:08old tech58:09is human and we’ve got to think about58:11responsibility58:13individual collective responsibility58:16what is responsible check and you’ve got58:18to think about accountability and58:20transparency and explainability and58:22auditability and all of these great58:24things58:25and you’ve got to always remember due58:27process58:28due process is so critical when it comes58:31to data58:32and ai and duty of care when it comes58:35to data and ai and this is where i come58:38from58:39that that space of understanding that58:41the people have rights58:43yeah people describe justice it feels58:45like too when you’re talking about that58:47the the one thing that58:48i think it was even mentioned in the in58:50the movie 13 uh58:52that that um prisoners rights are sort58:55of the last58:56frontier of human rights you know58:57there’s so many as you said people seem58:59to59:00write off people who have been59:01incarcerated or who have been through59:03the criminal justice59:04system and it seems it’s so critically59:06important that we59:07move our minds into that space to be59:09able to59:10accept the full humanity of every human59:13every person59:14in the criminal justice system and59:16beyond and as if we’re talking about59:18rehabilitation and if we’re talking of59:20restorative justice and59:21and reentry and these individuals are59:23returning citizens and what do they get59:25when they return i mean59:26we’ve got to come from a place of59:28compassion and my criminology comes from59:30a place59:31of compassion because i have seen pain i59:33have seen pain in the criminal justice59:35system and when you59:36work with children in the criminal59:38justice system59:39it really brings you to a place of of59:41asking59:42certain questions and when i see59:44something like an59:45algorithmic decision-making system being59:48used59:48when it comes to juvenile justice and59:51being applied to59:52who’s deemed a juvenile delinquent and59:54who gets the chance and who has to go59:56through the criminal justice system59:58you don’t want to put someone through59:59the criminal justice system what you60:01want to do60:02is reduce contact with the criminal60:04justice system60:05and those are the things we need to be60:07thinking about using ai to do60:09not to over surveil communities and to60:11to use facial recognition to misidentify60:14and mistakenly identify and use60:16technologies to60:17to trap and to incarcerate um yes those60:20things60:21are there as part of the legal system60:24but60:25let’s use our imagination use our60:28imagination60:29i love that it’s a very boring60:31interpretation of it if you just do it60:33that way i love your interpretation i60:35think that’s beautiful60:36i have on the screen the link to60:39responsibletechguide.com60:41and since this will be an audio podcast60:42that will be helpful for people60:44uh please uh feel free to go and check60:46that out read60:47uh renee’s profile it’s brilliant she’s60:50been interviewed in that and featured60:52and it’s it’s60:53it’s gorgeous and i think you’ll find60:55just as much inspiration60:57there as you have from hearing from here60:58today although61:00i’m honored that i got to have this61:01conversation with you directly61:03so last question is how can people find61:05and follow you61:06and your work online well i’m on all61:09social media platforms most people reach61:11out to me uh via lincoln uh61:13linkedin uh twitter instagram61:17facebook wherever i always respond and i61:20i do uh some mentoring uh with uh61:23you know women in ai ethics another61:25great organization that has been61:26bringing a lot of diversity equity and61:28inclusion61:29to the space and another organization61:31that has been celebrating of course61:33black women in ai which is61:35uh so important black and brown women in61:37ai which is really critical at this time61:39so61:40uh yeah so whenever they reach out i61:42always respond so61:43wonderful you you heard it here people61:45you can reach out61:46uh do your own interview bring renee to61:49more stages and more platforms because61:51this creativity needs to be heard i61:53i love the compassion and the creative61:55approach61:56that you bring to this and obviously61:57your passion it’s it’s so clear what62:00comes through so62:01i want to thank you very very much for62:02joining me here today62:04and thank you to all our viewers and to62:06our listeners on the podcast62:09uh everyone i hope that you have a62:11beautiful week weekend ahead62:13and thank you again renee thank you for62:16the extraordinary work that you’re doing62:17it was an honor being with you62:19thank you very kind thank you bye-bye62:21everyone62:23bye-bye