hello02:34humans who do we have out there02:38we got some folks tuning in it looks02:39like02:41see some numbers popping up so i’m glad02:43to see you02:45thanks to those of you who are already02:46online if you are tuned in02:48go ahead and pop a little comment in02:50wherever you’re watching and just let me02:51know where you’re watching from02:54so we can see what kind of an02:55international audience i’m sure we have02:57since we do have an international host03:00and guest arrangement today03:03so uh this is the tech humanist show of03:05course you are in the right classroom03:07i hope it’s a multimedia format program03:11exploring data how data and technology03:12shape the human experience i’m kate03:14o’neil03:15uh so please subscribe or follow03:17wherever you’re checking this out so you03:18won’t miss any new episodes03:21tammy evans says we love kate o’neil i03:23love you tammy evans i’m so glad you’re03:25here03:26st petersburg florida but it’s03:29a little warmer there i mean it’s been03:32very nice here but i don’t know is it03:33hot in st petersburg right now03:35i don’t know if it’s miserably hot or03:37nice it seems like it’s probably nice03:40um i am so glad to have some folks03:43tuning in and showing up03:44i’m excited because today i’m gonna go03:47ahead and talk about our guest which is03:48probably why a lot of you are tuned in03:50oh hey ted poulton tuning in from03:52connecticut hi03:54glad to see you uh today we are talking03:57with rahav harfuj who is a strategist04:00digital anthropologist and best-selling04:02author who focuses on the intersections04:04between emerging technology04:06innovation and digital culture she’s the04:08executive director of the red thread04:10institute of digital culture and teaches04:12innovation and emerging business models04:14at sean’s politique she’ll have to tell04:16me if i pronounce that well enough04:18science poe is how i always see it04:21school of management and innovation in04:23paris04:23she is currently working on her fourth04:25book we’ll talk about that and her third04:27book entitled hustle and float reclaim04:29your creativity and thrive in a world04:31obsessed with work was released in 201904:33she’s been featured by bloomberg the cvc04:35ctv and forbes for her work on04:38workplace culture formerly rahaf was the04:40associate director of the technology04:42pioneer program at the world economic04:44forum in geneva04:45where she helped identify disruptive04:46startups that were improving the state04:48of the world04:49rahaf is the co-author of the decoded04:51company know your talent better than you04:52know your customers04:54and her first book yes we did an04:56insider’s look at how social media built04:57the obama brand04:58chronicled her experiences as a member05:00of barack obama’s digital media team05:02during the 2008 presidential elections05:05and explored how social networking05:06revolutionized political campaign05:08strategy05:09rahath has been named one of the most05:10innovative women in france05:12one of the top future thinkers to shape05:14the world a young global changer05:17and a canadian arab to watch rahaf’s05:20writing has been featured in hbr05:22wired the globe and mail fast company05:24and many more05:25she’s a frequent commentator on france05:2724 and the cbc05:28in her spare time which doesn’t sound05:30like she probably doesn’t have any05:32rahav enjoys instagramming too many05:34pictures of her dog pixel05:35and as an instagram follower i can tell05:37you they are adorable05:38learning how to play the ukulele and05:40working on her first novel we’ll check05:42in on the ukulele novel status in just a05:44little bit05:44so audience start getting your questions05:46ready for our fantastic guest05:48and my friend please do note that as a05:50live show we’ll do our best to vet05:52comments and questions in real time05:54so we may not get to all of them but we05:56really appreciate you being here05:58tuning in and participating in the show05:59so with that06:01please welcome my friend rahav harfouche06:05who is here you are live on the tech06:08human show thank you so much for joining06:10us06:11hi your intro was so infectious i06:14honestly felt my mood just like06:16lift up 10 points just like seeing your06:19sparkly bubbly energy06:22isn’t it so fun too to have your bio06:24read and be like that person sounds06:25really impressive06:27i’m always like you know you know it’s06:29always so weird to hear people read06:30things06:31about you but uh it’s always so nice to06:34have like such great friends that you06:35can have i’m so excited for this chat06:37i’ve been looking forward to it06:38me too i’ve been harassing you to have06:40me on since you started oh please i was06:42like you were the one of the first06:43people i thought i’ve gotta have rough i06:45have on so i refer your work constantly06:48i don’t know if you know this but06:49people so often ask me about the impact06:52of tech on our everyday lives so if i’m06:54doing a talk06:55on tech in the uh in the workplace in06:57terms of digital transformation or06:58whatever06:59i get questions about things like you07:01know tech overload and how we personally07:03use tech and i’m always like you know07:05that’s a really07:05important and interesting question i am07:07not an expert on that you should totally07:09check out my friend ralph’s book07:11and i’ve handed your copies of your book07:13to so many people07:15uh so i am very curious to hear you know07:18basically with with covid changing07:21everything in the landscape like07:22how has that tech and personal07:25experience relationship07:26changed for you or what’s been happening07:28relative to that for you07:32um well for me i think it just amplified07:35a lot of the issues that i had with07:39the way that we were using technology07:41before so07:42um i i i’ve been very careful and with07:45my work but very intentional about the07:47type of07:47information that i consume and the07:49amount of time i spent on certain07:51platforms07:51but i noticed that in my social networks07:54and07:55in my friend groups that people were07:57home more07:58obviously we were under lockdown for08:00several months and so08:01what can we do but turn to our online to08:04this never-ending08:06sphere of content and distraction and08:08connections and i noticed in the first08:10couple of weeks everyone was all about08:12the zoom everything’s and then there was08:13like a zoom burnout and08:15uh for me i think there’s a couple of08:17big issues at play and we can dive into08:19whichever one you want the first08:21is that we have more bandwidth because08:24we’re at home so we’re like08:26consuming more information for better or08:28for worse i say for worse because i08:30think with so much uncertainty08:32a lot of these platforms uh leverage08:34this like addictive08:35constant refresh breaking news cycle and08:38with something as complex08:40and nuanced as covid i know many of us08:42were glued to our screens refreshing08:44refreshing refreshing the latest news08:46right i don’t know about you but that08:48was not the best thing i could have done08:49for my mental well-being08:51or anxiety it was at one point i was08:53like i need08:54to take a step away because i’m just08:56addicted to like08:57the news of it instead of actually08:59increasing my information or my09:01knowledge09:02um and the other thing is i think that09:04for many people09:05uh at least for people in our line of09:08work you know where we travel a lot09:10uh the forced pause in many cases09:13uh made us realize that we are some of09:16us use productivity as a coping09:17mechanism so suddenly we had more time09:20and what does that mean that to have09:21more time and so i saw people starting09:23to09:23try to make their personal time as09:25productive as their09:27professional time and really pushing09:29themselves to like pick up 10 new09:30hobbies and learn 10 new languages and09:32take 10 new classes and09:34one or two of those things is great but09:36i really saw people loading up09:38and that was a good indication to me of09:40our09:42our like lack of comfort with not doing09:44anything09:45yeah so i feel like tech just brought a09:46lot of that to the surface09:48so is uh the the goal to learn ukulele09:51and write a novel those were pre-coveted09:52goals09:54those were 100 pre-coded goals and you09:56know there was a point in time09:57where i was feeling quite low about09:59everything and and then i noticed i was10:01guilty myself for10:03not writing and not learning and not10:05doing all these things and then10:06i was like you know what like we are10:08undergoing this immensely traumatic10:11super stressful thing like it’s okay to10:14not do10:15anything it’s okay to just recover and10:17rest like that’s fine10:19and i just put all those things to the10:20to the side during that like peak10:22lockdown period and it was like really10:24scary10:26it was and i think i think it was scary10:28in a background way so it was really10:30hard to allow ourselves to acknowledge10:32that it was scary right it’s this kind10:33of muted10:34undertone of scariness that’s not10:36something like i almost10:38would have preferred zombie you know10:39what i mean like the sun was shining10:42and we couldn’t see anything but it was10:43so scary outside but like everything10:46looked normal but it wasn’t normal i i10:48found the whole thing to be quite10:50unsettling10:51and that’s different from from a normal10:53you know unhealthy relationship with10:55tech10:56in the sense that i think we always have10:58you know we always had this tendency to10:59have kind of a11:00an always-on work access and you know11:03being always connected to social and11:04there’s like the whole fomo culture and11:06everything11:07um but i i think what’s so interesting11:09about your book i mean11:10there are many interesting things about11:11your book but one is that what you’re11:13really talking about it seems like on11:15one level is about11:16creativity and how to be your most11:18creative self and in a sense your most11:21productive self but not productive in11:22the kind of11:23hustle porn sort of way it’s more like11:26your most11:27authentically productive or your most11:29authentically creative self is that a11:30fair characterization11:33yeah i think the word creative has such11:36such a hot word for people like people11:38either love it or they hate it they11:40either totally associate or don’t they11:41either say yes that’s me or that’s not11:43me11:44but i believe my definition of11:45creativity is pretty much all of11:47knowledge work so if you are a11:49researcher11:49or a marketer or a comms person or an11:52accountant or a lawyer if you are11:54solving problems and figuring things out11:57and coming up with new ideas like11:59you’re you’re a creative you’re a12:01professional creative12:02and many of us have big goals and big12:06things and big problems that we’re12:07working on and these12:09large ambitions we want to accomplish12:11and so12:12we want to achieve things we want to12:14produce things we want to be productive12:16but the problem is12:17is that the systems that are put into12:19place of how many of us12:21currently measure our productivity were12:23never designed for us12:25so they were never made for us and the12:27type of work that we do12:28and not only were they never designed12:30for us they actively hurt us12:32and so my book asks this question is12:34kind of asks two big questions the first12:36is like12:37what would a system that was designed12:40by creatives for creatives to do their12:43best work look like and i guarantee you12:45it’s not spending 16 hours a day in12:47front of a computer12:48and the second thing was is what is this12:50interesting relationship we have with12:52our work12:52whereas so many of us burn out and so12:55many of us push ourselves to the limit12:57despite knowing better right it’s not12:59like i say to you hey i’ve got this13:01groundbreaking new idea kate it’s called13:03taking a break like13:04you know what to do i know what to do we13:07all know what to do and yet we don’t do13:09it and so it was diving into the13:12the media aspect the psychology the13:14stories that we tell ourselves and each13:16other about like who gets to be13:17successful13:18and what success looks like and should13:20we wake up at 5am and should we do13:22you know all of these things tell13:25ourselves like build a world where we13:27believe that only by13:28working non-stop can we be successful13:30and worse if you don’t work hard enough13:33then we have this horrible message like13:34well you just must not want your goal13:36enough you must not be as committed to13:38your goal that’s not true13:40we as creatives we need time to be able13:43to build great things we can’t13:45build great things if we don’t have time13:46to think about them we can’t think about13:48them if we’re non-stop on technology13:50distracted all the time13:52yeah and there are certainly ways where13:54that technology can help facilitate13:56our creativity uh and i believe you13:59address13:59many of those throughout the book um but14:02it’s a really delicate balance it seems14:04like14:05i mean you and i know this and you14:07actually i learned this from you and14:09your work which is the technology itself14:11is just14:12a tool it’s like fire right i can use a14:15fire to warm up14:16my house or i can use a fire to burn my14:18house down it depends on how i use it14:20and so14:20i believe that technology can be14:22incredibly powerful to14:24amplifying your creativity to connecting14:26you with new ideas with new people with14:28new avenues with new business14:30opportunities14:31but if you don’t have that14:32intentionality it will14:34suck your creative juice it will14:36distract you it will make you feel14:38horrible it will corrode your attention14:41and your focus and it’ll just make you14:43miserable14:44if you’re not really clear about how14:47you’re using it and14:48very intentional with how you’re using14:50it to support your creative process14:51yeah so tammy evans says you are14:53speaking to my soul14:55the struggle with the deep desire to14:57create battling the wudakura soda is14:59real15:01ugh tammy you nailed it yeah right and15:04then spider gram says it seems so15:05paradoxical that taking meaningful15:07downtime can make you more productive15:09which i think you know speaks to what15:11you’re saying there15:13the trick is is that for creatives we15:16have to balance15:17periods where we’re actually producing15:19the thing15:20with periods where i called intangible15:22creativity a lot of the thinking you15:24can’t see and in our culture15:26we don’t like things that we can’t see15:28if i can’t see you working then you must15:29not be working15:30but how many of us have gone for a walk15:32and gotten that idea15:34or been daydreaming and gotten that idea15:36and so creatives we need15:38that downtime we need time when we’re15:40actually not distracted15:41and by the way like downtime isn’t15:44taking a coffee break and then being on15:45social media downtime is really15:48downtime it’s daydreaming it’s just15:50letting your brain go15:51and we don’t do that because in our15:54culture15:54any time not spent being productive is a15:57waste15:58which is why we need a different15:59framework because for a writer16:01or for a strategist or for you for you16:03and i you like you spend so much time16:04thinking about things for you to think16:07about things you16:08need the time to think about them yeah i16:10mean i asked you16:11how do you think how do you carve out16:12time in your day to just like16:15let the ideas marinate a bit i remember16:17early in my career i had16:19jobs where my title was tech writer or16:21where writing was a big part of the job16:23i was doing and i actually had a sign16:24posted at my desk that said a writer is16:26writing even when staring into space16:29ugh i love that that’s exactly it yeah16:32and i feel like it’s a really important16:33framework to establish with people16:35that like don’t interrupt me just16:37because i’m sitting here and robbie and16:38i have16:39a sort of method where since we share16:42our living room as a workspace16:43if we have headphones on that’s like16:45sacred time16:47we do not interrupt each other and so16:48you may put on headphones and not be16:50listening to anything16:51but it’s just to carve out that16:52isolation and that time16:54to just be and that might be in front of16:57a screen or it might not16:58uh but but just having that that17:00isolation is still really helpful17:03georgia o’neil my mother says i’m trying17:05to create a balance but that’s a17:07challenge17:08it really is georgia your daughter is a17:11delight and you should be so proud of17:12her she’s one of my favorite people17:15don’t beat her she’ll totally go off on17:17it17:18[Laughter]17:19no it is hard to find a balance and i17:21think it’s because we’ve shamed17:22ourselves into thinking17:24that if we’re not doing stuff it’s a17:26waste and that’s the problem the problem17:28is is like intentional recovery17:31deciding and choosing to rest as a part17:34of your life and prioritizing that17:37is really hard for all of us because we17:39constantly hear17:40these stories of ceos and celebrities17:43and17:44you know elon musk sleeping on the floor17:46of his factory and tim cook waking up at17:494 30 a.m in the morning so you hear all17:50of that and then you think17:53i can’t take a nap i can’t watch a movie17:55i can’t go for a walk because17:57then i don’t i’m not like committed to17:59being successful which is the most18:02toxic belief system that we have18:04incorporated into our society today18:05especially for creatives18:07yeah so anna milicivic says you hit the18:09nail on the head with knowledge work18:10equals creativity and then follows that18:12up saying18:13we’re still operating on industrial era18:15work assumptions time for a big revamp18:17and i was thinking that too as you were18:19talking about it that you know it’s kind18:20of like18:21daydreaming and walking is not in my18:22okrs so i don’t know how to measure that18:24i don’t know how to report on that i18:26don’t know how to tell my18:27my bosses or my clients that i’m being18:29productive you know that that’s18:31that’s what i think is a lot of the the18:33challenge with the framework is that18:35we may know intuitively once we’ve kind18:38of overcome that hurdle that18:39that there is an important piece of18:41creativity and of knowledge work that’s18:43implicit in18:45downtime and and allowing yourself a18:47refresh18:48but that isn’t built into our systems as18:50anna points out here18:53and the way that i mean you raised such18:54a good point because18:56when you start questioning the systems18:58if you just hold them up and just say18:59let’s just like talk about these systems19:01they become even more and more absurd19:03it’s like okay kate how many ideas do19:04you come up with19:06in an eight-hour day what’s your idea19:08per hour well that’s not how that works19:11and it’s like but these are the systems19:13why am i measuring19:15you know the number of hours you’re at19:17your desk and somehow equating that to19:19your creative output19:20when really what you might need is a a19:23walk in central park or a nap19:25or something else yeah it’s so so true19:28when i was working on pixels in place19:30there were points where i had hit a wall19:32just19:33kind of conceptually and i would take my19:35phone uh with the dictation19:37feature ready to go and just walk and19:40just be thinking and walking and then if19:42i thought of something i would start19:43dictating immediately but it might only19:45be19:45a few sentences and then just walk for19:47another you know19:4810 minutes of just quiet time but then19:51maybe have another sentence that occurs19:52to me19:53and that that kind of even those two or19:55three sentences can really help you19:57break through19:58that barrier so it is it’s so important20:00and it’s not20:01you’re right it’s not something that we20:02can measure on an ideas per hour20:04basis it is so absurd20:09i really like this idea of like taking20:11this time like i’ve started where if i20:13want to work on a document20:15i’ll open the document up i’ll write the20:17title20:18and i’ll write two or three sentences of20:20what i want the document to be about and20:23then i will20:24minimize the document and i will go do20:26something else for like 30 minutes20:28and you wouldn’t believe it like every20:30single time i do that20:32my brain’s working working working and20:33then it’s like okay that’s the first20:35point that’s the second point and then i20:36come back20:37and it’s so easy instead of what i used20:39to do which is like stare20:41at my screen and tear my hair out until20:43like i got what i needed and it was such20:45an unpleasant experience20:46so out of curiosity have you found that20:48to be true with fiction as well with20:50this work of fiction that you’re20:51yeah you can do that you can just start20:52with an idea and walk away and have it20:54be20:55percolating in the background the best20:57thing i’ve done for myself20:58is prep work so like i break everything21:01down in scenes21:02and then what i do is the night before i21:05look at the outline of the scene that i21:06want to work on the next day and then i21:08just like21:09sleep on it and then i wake up and i21:11have my coffee and like generally by21:12that time it21:14it’s working in the background like it’s21:15just because you’re not actively working21:17doesn’t mean that your brain21:19isn’t still doing stuff your brain is21:21constantly making connections reviewing21:23stuff thinking about stuff imagining21:25stuff so if you say to yourself okay21:26like21:27my two characters need to get into a21:28bind and i need them to find a way out21:31of this particular situation i don’t21:32know what that is21:33you just kick that to the back but your21:35brain’s like got it and then while21:36you’re21:37hanging out while you’re sleeping while21:38you’re doing stuff it’s still21:40running in the background it just saves21:42a lot of that like intense effort21:44you know yeah of having forced it ted21:47poulton says much of what you’re21:48describing is detailed in the book21:49stealing fire21:50as well in case anybody’s interested in21:52following up on that idea or that lead21:55josh canal says how do we get people to21:57realize that our present appearance21:58doesn’t reflect our future delivery well22:00that’s a really good articulation22:02of that what do you think rahab22:05i mean for me the the the breakthrough22:08that i had in doing this work was that22:10it’s not actually about systems or22:12organizations it’s about us as people22:14like we are our hardest task masters we22:17are our harshest22:18bosses and we will push ourselves to the22:21limit22:21even when other people tell us that we22:24should stop and take a break22:26and so i think if we’re going to move to22:28a more i would say instead of human22:30productivity humane22:31productivity if we’re going to move to a22:33more humane productivity mindset22:35we have to face some we have to have22:38some uncomfortable conversations about22:40the role of work in our lives the link22:42between our identity and our jobs and22:44our self-worth22:45our need for validation with social22:47media and professional recognition22:49our egos all of these things like22:52battle it out which is why i just can’t22:54come on here and be like okay guys take22:56a break here22:56do this we’re not gonna do it we really22:58have to talk about questions like23:00growing up what did your parents teach23:03you about work ethic when you think23:05about work ethic23:06how is that related to how you see23:08yourself or23:09who are the people that you admire or23:11what does success look like to you23:13and then there’s statements that you can23:14ask yourselves like you know if you work23:16hard23:16anything is like all these things you23:18can start testing your own relationship23:20with work and once you start asking23:21yourself these questions23:23you start to see that we have built a23:24relationship psychologically23:27where we feel like if we don’t work hard23:29enough23:30we’re not deserving of the success we23:32have in our lives and not only do we23:34have to work hard23:35we have to suffer for it we have to pull23:37all-nighters and23:38think of like think of the words that we23:40use hustle and grind23:41and like all of these like horrible23:44verbs23:45you know which is why i wanted to add23:46float into the mix because it doesn’t23:48float just sound23:48so chill23:52also chris westwall comes to your23:53defense and says come on ted she’s an23:55original23:55and of course of course you are23:59listen artists steal i we stand on the24:01shoulders of giants i’m happy to be24:03compared in the same company as like24:05anybody that’s working in this space24:07really so24:08yeah also chris westball says why are24:10these uncomfortable conversations24:11necessary what’s the ultimate outcome24:13defining success isn’t the same as24:14achieving it24:15but maybe it’s a start so that24:17articulation of what success is and and24:19being able to frame those questions like24:21you’re talking about ask yourself those24:22really important24:23um outlook questions of you know what24:25informed your world view24:27on that that that’s a that seems like24:29it’s it’s an important piece of the work24:31right24:32so there’s the part about like your24:34relationship with work as an individual24:36and it’s important and the reason why24:37it’s important to dig into that is that24:39oftentimes24:40our views about our work become24:42assumptions that we don’t question so24:44don’t we don’t ever stop and say24:46does this belief actually help me24:47produce my best24:49possible work or is it just pushing me24:51to a point where i’m exhausted and i’m24:53burned out that’s the first thing24:55the second thing is a lot of the stories24:58that we have been told about success24:59just like25:00aren’t true and the way that and i’ll25:02give you a super quick super simple25:04example which is if there’s an equation25:05for success most people think hard work25:07equals success like that is the the25:09summary of it25:10but in reality while hard work is very25:13important it’s super important25:15it’s not the only variable where you’re25:17born25:18your serendipity your you know like the25:21the birth lottery element your luck your25:23gender your all of these things are25:25little variables that add into the25:27equation so what i don’t like about the25:29hard work equals success25:31is the flip side of that tells people25:33that well if you’re not successful it25:35must be because you’re not working hard25:36enough25:37and part of the awakening is to25:39understand that25:40there are other factors at play here and25:43we’re all working25:44pretty hard and so we don’t need more25:46things telling us that we’re not enough25:48and we’re not worthy25:49that also seems like a distinctly25:51american mythology25:52and what i particularly love about your25:56background and your bio is that your25:58intersectional identities are25:59on full display you know being a26:01canadian arab living in france who26:03happened to work on obama’s campaign i26:04mean that’s a wonderfully26:06rich kind of understanding of the world26:09that’s26:10that’s part of that and uh also that you26:12know your your26:13parents and you were born in damascus26:15syria right26:16uh and grew up in toronto so and lived26:18in geneva and now living in in france26:21that seems like it must have something26:23to do with your ability26:25to and this is an interesting segue i26:26think into you know sort of the digital26:28anthropology thing but your ability to26:30look26:30around across culture and across the26:32stories we tell ourselves and those26:34mythologies and be able26:36to have some objectivity about them is26:38that fair26:39yeah when i first moved to europe i was26:42shocked26:42like genuinely shocked by the fact that26:45entry-level workers got 2526:48paid days off of vacation a year i was26:51like26:51what how i remember starting my first26:54job in canada and getting 1026:55days including chris including26:58everything and so26:59um living in europe really opened my27:01eyes to how a life that’s27:04that prioritizes different aspects of27:06daily living27:07could look like in practice and you know27:10in france the first couple of years that27:12i lived in france in france there’s this27:13thing called le grande pag which is the27:15big departure which is in august27:16basically the entire country shuts down27:18and goes on vacation27:20and i remember the first like year or27:22two being furious like27:23genuinely furious being like how could27:25they do this27:27what a dumb business idea everything’s27:29closed think of all the money they’re27:30missing27:31and then now seven years in august is my27:34most favorite month because i started27:36taking it off as well27:37and the first year i took the entire27:39month off which i’ve met i’d never done27:41in my life before27:42on like day like 17 it felt like my27:46brain27:46had undergone like a factory reset i had27:49never27:50taken that long of a break and and27:53wasn’t like27:53hopping from country to country on like27:55a big trip i was just27:56in the countryside just hanging out and28:00i28:00brought up a notebook with me and i said28:02to myself i’m not doing any work28:04i just brought a notebook for ideas i28:06came back in september with28:07two notebooks filled with ideas28:10wow and it was just like wow28:14yeah that’s amazing i remember too i28:17think the only time i’ve taken28:18that long of a period off at once uh my28:22late husband and i in 1998 we did a28:24three-week cross-country28:25across america road trip and i remember28:28it was about28:29day eight or ten or so that i had talked28:32with one of my28:33co-workers and she was asking me a28:35question and i legitimately could not28:37remember the answer to the question like28:39my brain was just so checked out from28:41work and it was28:42really nice it was a really lovely28:45experience so yeah28:46at that and you’ve really just convinced28:48me with those two notebooks28:51i mean you your brain needs at least a28:53week to just like28:55unwind from the stress of work like we28:57just need it took me a week to just like28:59recover to zero before i could go29:02beyond zero and then the second you let29:04your brain rest like it29:06all came pouring in i still refer to29:08that notebook honestly29:09and just look at all the things that i29:11wrote down and i was like wow where did29:12this come from and it’s like well of29:14course if you don’t give it room to come29:16out29:16it’s if you’re just constantly on planes29:19and29:19you know in deliverables and client29:21stuff and business stuff like you’re29:22never going to actually take the time to29:24imagine new opportunities for yourself29:26new potentials for yourself29:28yeah oh that’s such a wonderful29:30testimonial29:31for the value of unplugging so29:34in describing yourself as a digital29:36anthropologist are are you saying that29:38you studied the cultures of the internet29:40or is there a different way you would29:41explain or articulate that29:44i studied the interacting relationship29:47between technology and culture so one29:49how internet culture is evolving but29:52also how does culture impact technology29:54and how does technology impact culture29:56so it’s like this really interesting29:57back and forth between the two29:59yeah that’s true there does seem to be a30:01lot of that and it seems like30:02at first glance your book hustle and30:04float would seem like it’s a departure30:06from that field30:07but i would think that there’s a lot of30:09ways that technology and data and30:10algorithms and30:11and digital cultures are driving us to30:14workaholism and exhaustion30:16and reactionary and polarized discourse30:18and so on so30:19was that part of what drew you to30:21writing the book or did that crossover30:23just happen30:24naturally and that crossover happened30:27very naturally and randomly the whole30:29thing stood because i got really30:31frustrated30:32when i had my own burnout that like i30:34knew better but didn’t do better30:36and that was really frustrating to me30:37it’s like i have the knowledge why30:39couldn’t i put the knowledge in practice30:41and then eventually i realized all of30:43these belief systems and stories they’re30:45embedded30:46in every instagram meme and every30:48algorithm that asks you to refresh every30:5010 seconds and every30:52notification that interrupts your time30:54in the design of these tools where we’re30:56designing them30:57to make to socially shame people for not31:00responding bad enough31:01or sorry for not responding fast enough31:03so like with whatsapp for example you31:05know the blue check marks that lets you31:07know that the person you’ve sent the31:08message to31:09has seen and read your message like what31:12is that if not social pressure to like31:14respond so we’ve also shaped technology31:17to amplify31:18the social norms that if you’re left on31:21red31:21that is a breach of etiquette that is31:23like not okay you know and31:25i started seeing more and more of these31:27especially like memes there’s so many31:29like as you called it earlier31:30productivity porn like so many weird31:32memes that are31:33telling you the the one that sticks out31:35in my mind is one that says31:37that assumes you’ve worked a full eight31:39hour day at a job and then says if31:41you’re not where you’re at have you been31:43thinking what you’re doing between31:44midnight and 2 a.m in the morning31:46because that’s when you should be31:47building your side hustle31:48in full seriousness and i was just like31:52it just you know and then you see people31:53that like read this31:54and then make themselves feel bad31:56because then they convince themselves31:57that all they need is to work harder31:59when maybe to be creative all they need32:01is actually to do less32:03and to give their brains a chance to32:04catch up yeah and to use32:06some of those coffee breaks where32:08they’re hitting their phone in social32:09media32:10to maybe actually go for a walk and let32:12some of that space happen32:14but it is an interesting overlap and and32:17cross-pollination almost32:19it seems like also meme culture is a32:22really important part32:23of understanding the the way that those32:26um those concepts cross-pollinate and i32:30think32:30i think about when eli paris our first32:32talked about filter bubbles back in 201132:35and it was like we were only32:37experiencing a fraction of the32:38algorithmic polarization we do now32:41uh and a lot of that is through memes it32:43seems like you know the amplification32:45and the dominance of meme discourse32:49online so when you look at the32:51polarization and fragmentation of32:52digital culture in 202032:54and even looking beyond if if you do how32:57do you think it affects us and and what32:59is there to be done about it33:02what’s interesting is that the33:03polarization that you’re seeing right33:05now in the content ecosystem33:07is the byproduct of a market that has33:09prioritized personalized33:11personalization in every single aspect33:13of our lives like you can expect people33:15to33:16personalize their their their movie33:18queue33:19their book cue their playlists and then33:22somehow expect news to remain neutral33:24right we created this entire33:26technological reality where33:28your subjective experience as an33:30individual your desires what you like33:32what you want to see what you agree with33:34is constantly mirrored back at you33:37and so then what happens is it’s only a33:38natural extension then that the33:40information that you see33:41also reflects your reality what i think33:43is quite interesting33:44is that i believe that by frequenting in33:47these filter bubbles33:49we have reduced our capacity to engage33:52in things that we disagree with because33:53we don’t have to we don’t actively have33:55to33:56engage in anything that upsets us we33:58just click out we mute we block we34:01cancel34:01we eliminate it so we can fully create34:04an echo chamber of information that only34:08ever reflects back our own world view34:10and what that is doing is that it’s34:12making people get this false sense of34:14reality where their opinions slowly34:16become beliefs because it gets repeated34:18over and over and over and if every time34:20you said something34:22a hundred people were like yes you’re34:23absolutely right kate yes you’re34:24absolutely right34:25you’re gonna become more and more34:26certain about your world view and then34:29you’re34:29gonna become less capable of navigating34:32that world view because you don’t have34:34to34:34and so you see this divisiveness and i34:36mean what’s interesting is when facebook34:38did those experiments34:39of the different algorithms and how34:41different two people34:42on either end of the political spectrum34:45um34:45their their content that they were34:47seeing and the sources that they were34:48seeing34:49what we’re what we’re doing is we’re34:51ripping people apart to the point where34:53we can’t even agree34:55on a mutual reality anymore like34:58sometimes i feel like i’m in my own35:00reality and people35:01on the other political spectrum are in35:03their own reality and we’re both like35:05living in separate worlds but it’s the35:07same world and that’s quite dangerous35:09because if you can’t find35:11any common ground at all how can you35:15repair this divisiveness and the worst35:17part is is that the35:18going back to how technology influences35:20culture the metrics in play35:23that are driving the revenue models for35:25most of these technology platforms35:28depend on you spending a lot of time on35:30the platform so it’s this fundamental35:32thing of what you want versus what you35:33need35:34what you need is objective content from35:36a variety of vetted and trusted sources35:38what you want is to constantly get the35:40hit of validation because everyone35:42agrees with you and you feel like you’re35:43right35:44so we’re like little kids that have35:45gotten nothing but a constant stream of35:47junk food and now we’re wondering why we35:49don’t feel good and why we’re getting35:51like35:52becoming really healthy yeah that’s35:54exactly what we’re consuming information35:56junk and trash and this is what’s36:00happening36:00yeah when you look at a fast-growing36:03phenomenon36:04like tick-tock for example what do you36:06see in it do you see that it reflects36:09any of that piece of culture or is it a36:11completely different part of36:13a different different digital phenomenon36:15sorry36:16now i find tech talk really really36:19interesting because i think36:20they’re one of the few social networks36:22that actually got it right in terms of36:24like36:25social community design i’m gonna put36:27the data and the privacy36:29and the you know all that stuff just to36:31decide for a second because i know36:32that’s a big36:33privacy issue we should talk about it36:35i’m just literally talking about it from36:37just the way that they’ve structured the36:38flow of information36:40and if you think about it tick tock36:41understood that36:43um technology and social networks are an36:46ecosystem36:46where other platforms compete36:48desperately to keep36:50you and the content on their platforms36:52and these walled communities tick tock36:54is like take this content36:55and share it take it and take it36:57everywhere because they know you’ll come36:58back36:59that’s the first thing the second thing37:00is what i think is really interesting37:02about tiktok is that37:04the algorithm totally capitalizes on37:07people’s need for attention because for37:09those of you that don’t know or who37:10don’t use tick tock a lot37:12you navigate the page through a main37:14feed that’s called the for you page37:16and the for you page shows you content37:18say 50 content from people you follow37:21but 50 content from from people you37:24don’t follow but whose content is37:25popular on the app or whose content is37:27aligned with the algorithms that you’re37:29searching for37:30what this means is that you don’t need37:32to build a large audience in order to37:34hit37:35uh to have a viral piece of content so37:37because there’s like this lottery system37:39where anyone’s content can go viral and37:41i think37:42at a much faster and easier rate than37:44other platforms37:45people are creating content non-stop and37:48the content37:48is like so specifically tailored imagine37:52like an37:52endless neighborhood with like teeny37:55tiny little micro communities there’s37:56viking tick tock and back pain tick tock37:59and witch tick tock and38:00small business tick tock and and quantum38:03physics tick tock and dance tik tok and38:05all these little tiny neighborhoods are38:06constantly being cross-pollinated from38:08other social networks38:10that i think is a really innovative38:12approach and why i think the app has38:14been so popular38:15do you find that really different from38:17youtube for example i mean it seems like38:19there’s a similar kind of concept with38:21channels and people creating content38:22that really tailors to38:24their niche audience and then that38:25content is shared out to other38:27platforms and throughout the web and38:29throughout social channels is38:30what makes it different in terms of is38:33it the engagement within the platform38:36it’s the fundamental understanding of38:38meme culture38:39as the main currency of distribution so38:43all of tick tock is using meme sounds38:45and the memes evolve and the memes take38:47on their own meaning and then they38:48become popular and then memes rise and38:50fall and trends rise and fall so there38:51are sounds that you’re using and then38:53like 30 000 people will use the same38:55sound that will create a collective meme38:58and it’s 15 seconds and it’s really39:00easy and unlike the full gear that you39:02need to produce a beautiful39:04youtube video tick tock gives the39:06creators everything that you need if you39:08have39:08zero technical experience to be able to39:10take a piece of meme content39:12to respond to it copy it imitate it39:14reshare it directly from the app you39:16don’t have to39:17upload anything separate you have to do39:18anything everything is done for you39:20but i think it’s so powerful because it39:22essentially organizes meme content so39:24you can take one sound and see all the39:26people that have used it and essentially39:28see the evolution of the meme from the39:30first person that uploaded it39:31all the way through the different stages39:33of virality from remixing and reacting39:35to reimagining39:38and like recreating all of those things39:40you can follow it and i think that is39:41quite39:42unique so i know another sort of digital39:44subculture you often39:46talk about and research about is the bts39:49subculture and k-pop in general39:51yes k-pop is there a an overlap between39:55tiktok and the phenomenon of the39:58virality of the the meme culture40:00and bts and k-pop and the the sort of40:04cam culture and things like that is is40:06there is there overlap or are they two40:08separate functioning things40:11no there’s definitely overlap like tick40:13tock is almost like a big40:15like hub that everything can be sent out40:18on and if you think about it you have40:19this app what makes it really easy to40:21create like a funky40:22short snappy incredibly catchy uh40:25piece of content that you can then whip40:27out across the web40:28and kpop stands or kpop fans in general40:32are incredibly well versed in leveraging40:34all of these platforms to amplify their40:36message at an40:37insane scale like the quantity of tweets40:40that you will see40:41from one fandom to another fandom is40:43like is in the millions40:45and bts is really interesting because i40:48find it40:49particularly interesting where in a40:51quite like40:52american-centric social media landscape40:55to have40:55a boy band that the primary language is40:59korean41:00that is able to come and interject41:03itself in such a powerful way around the41:06world41:07and that to me is like so interesting41:09and a lot of it depends on41:10the labor of the fans so they’re called41:13the the41:13the k army so so bts for example their41:16fandom’s called army41:18and the korean army members they will go41:20to all the trouble and they were for41:22free41:23at their own cost their own expense41:25translate content explain41:27content subtitle content do all of these41:29things so that the i army the41:30international fans get a chance to41:33experience it as well and they do that41:35through tick tock but they also do that41:37through every other platform so it’s41:39just like41:40like k-pop fans are just incredibly41:43well-versed at41:44using the platforms to amplify their41:46message and um tick tock just gave them41:48another tool to be able to do that41:50yeah ana militivex says regarding tic41:52toc i call this41:53the remixability index whole community41:56iterates41:56unlike youtube etc and then follows up41:59and says twitter has remixability too42:01but doesn’t handle abuse or bad actors42:03well so it seems like that’s a really42:05important42:06piece of the discussion as well42:09but uh yeah well tick tock has had some42:11trouble handling bad actors as well i42:13think there’s bad actors across the42:14board but42:15but no she’s absolutely right it’s this42:17meme it’s this it’s the social currency42:19of the language of the web that’s just42:21been like organized in a way that makes42:23it accessible to a large group of people42:26i noticed too that you uh you first you42:28did your first uh42:29live in person event recently and uh42:32by the way was that strange or good or42:34both or42:36it was good and it was also very strange42:38it really uh42:39hammered home how different things were42:42just from six months42:44ago you know plexiglas in call out rooms42:47chairs that were spaced limits masks42:50everywhere it just42:51um in a way i was very happy to have the42:54opportunity to get back out there42:55but i was also a little bit sad because42:58one of my favorite things to do at42:59events is like meet people43:00and exchange ideas and chat with them43:02and like the conversations that happen43:04and the friends that you meet and it was43:06very like limited and i was43:08keeping my distance and i had a mask and43:09i said to you before43:11i’m a very very pro mask person i just43:14want to start by saying i43:15wear masks all the time but i did find43:18that there was like a piece of that like43:20human connection that was lost when i43:21couldn’t see somebody like43:23smiling i couldn’t see their face their43:24micro expressions their voice their43:26accent like43:27that definitely added like a weird43:29filter in the in the43:31human interaction yeah i would imagine43:33so but the reason why43:35i actually uh brought up this in-person43:37event is because i noticed in the photos43:38that you posted that you were talking43:40with a group of cfos about the business43:42of bts43:43and so that sounds awesome and amazing i43:46wonder if you could give us a little43:47taste of what that talk is about43:50yeah they’re just really prolific and in43:53uh during the pandemic43:54when every a lot of music industries43:56were like trying to figure out or music43:58acts we’re trying to figure out what to43:59do44:00bts put together a very interesting44:02pay-per-view44:03concert called uh bang bang con that44:06broke the records for44:08the highest number of concurrent viewers44:10in a virtual con in a virtual concert44:12756 000 people from over 102 different44:16countries44:17paid money in order to see a bts virtual44:21concert44:22uh netting the band almost 20 million44:24dollars just for that one event alone44:26which is like a huge44:28interesting data point and yes i know44:30bts is really big but they offer an44:31interesting proto like an interesting44:33prototype to follow44:34and the other thing that i thought was44:35really cool speaking about44:37personalization is so44:38you know bts has seven members and in44:41k-pop and all44:42and i’m sure you probably know this but44:44in k-pop you generally have a favorite44:46and that favorite member is called your44:48bias so your bias is out of the seven44:51members of say bts you have one member44:53that you like44:54maybe more than one but there’s one44:55person that you who’s your bias44:57and so what they did what the the video45:00platform did was that45:01every member had their own camera feed45:05so that when you were watching the45:06concert if your favorite member45:09was um you know um45:12i don’t know like taehyung or something45:14one of the members or you know45:15you could click on his camera feed and45:17no matter what was happening on the main45:19stage45:19you knew that you could watch the entire45:21concert centered on like your favorite45:23bias45:24and i just thought what a great thing to45:27do45:28because you know with fan with that cam45:30culture and things like that45:31normally there’s like fan feeds that do45:33it and what a great way to be able to45:35create that opportunity for people to45:36have that intimate experience45:38so things like that um i i talked about45:41i also talked about the travis scott45:43fortnite concert where they did he did a45:4510-minute set45:47in fortnight that was beautiful and45:49incredible and i would encourage you45:50guys to go watch it if you haven’t45:51already45:52it just shows the potentiality of how45:54entertainment and platforms can mix45:56which i think is going to be important45:57as we try to navigate what this virus is45:59gonna46:00do to our ability to gather and enjoy46:02the arts together yeah absolutely46:04it also seems like a lot of your work46:06focuses on understanding youth culture46:08and it’s in its emerging impact on the46:10internet and on the workplace and46:11politics and so on so as you think about46:132020 and looking ahead through the46:15pandemic46:16you know what stands out to you in terms46:18of how that’s going to shape46:20dominant culture46:24i’ve been particularly interested i mean46:26i think youth culture46:28i think young people are just taking46:30more risks sometimes and they iterate46:32faster and they’re open to new things i46:33feel even as an46:34older millennial you know i have my46:37habits and my platforms that i use and46:38we sort of get set in our ways so it’s46:40always kind of good to look at the next46:41generation and to see46:43uh by the way the the uh gen z has46:46announced that we’re no longer using46:48like the crying laughing emoji so if you46:50are46:50not just just so everybody knows that46:52has been the the next update46:54use the the laughing crying cat emoji or46:57the skull emoji just wanted to46:58make sure everyone got the memo about47:00the latest cool technology47:02it’s very kind of you considering that47:03the host is gen x like we need to make47:05sure47:07that we stay cool and47:13what i think is interesting is this idea47:15of micro content and we’re seeing47:16content you know in the era of vine47:18especially tick tock that we’re47:20delivering messages and say under a47:21minute47:22what i’m finding really fascinating is47:24people’s ability47:25creatively to jam-pack quite nuanced and47:29intense conversations within that small47:32period of time47:33so now on tick tock now that the all of47:35us older people are on tick tock you’re47:37seeing for example like economists47:39quantum physicists47:40teachers doctors dermatologists47:43psychiatrists that are coming in and47:45that are talking47:46about like intense stuff but they’re47:49able to to deliver it in this like small47:51narrative47:52i saw a woman who was a quantum47:54physicist who was like talking about47:55stephen hawking’s47:57you know her his theories to like47:59hip-hop music and she was explaining it48:01in a way and i just thought you know48:02it’s there’s never been an easier time48:05to learn something in snippets the48:07counter part of that though48:08is i often wonder what we miss if we48:11move towards a skimming culture and not48:13a deep dive culture48:15and i noticed this in myself and i like48:16tried to watch a movie the other day a48:18two-hour movie and within 30 seconds i48:20almost felt myself being like okay48:22where’s the punch line what’s the point48:23what’s the next48:25but i don’t want to lose that so i think48:26that we as a society have to focus on48:29developing this like deep dive focus48:31because if all we’re ever doing is like48:32skip skip skip scroll scroll scroll48:35we’re gonna lose our capacity to engage48:37with an idea48:38with the depth that it requires in order48:40to make some of these tackle some of48:42these challenges that we have48:43yeah it seems like a really interesting48:44compliment to have that skimming culture48:47and the ability48:48to compress a great deal of information48:50and insight into48:51a 15 second you know to be versed in the48:54currency48:55or the the language of how that’s done48:57you know with the48:58the sort of gesturing up and having you49:00know bands of text and things like that49:02you know if people understand the how to49:04be fluent in that language then49:06a lot of information can be conveyed49:08quickly but yeah it does have to49:10it seems like it’s something that we49:11have to have running alongside49:14you know more in-depth knowledge49:16transfer and and learning49:18but yeah how do we how do we ensure that49:20i guess is49:21is a different question by the way tammy49:24evans gave us a little49:25cat laughing with tears emoji just to49:28prove49:29it she can stay hip and spider says so49:31hard to keep up49:33so i feel ya i uh49:36i wanted to pivot just uh before we run49:39out of time i i love the story of how49:41you came to work for obama’s digital49:42campaign49:43but would you mind recapping for the49:45audience of how that came to be49:48yeah sure i was uh working as the49:51research coordinator49:52on a book by a brilliant man named don49:55tapscott49:56and we were researching how technology49:58was influencing millennials at that50:00point in time it was for a book called50:01uh grown up digital50:03uh and as a part of that process one of50:06the research focus areas that i was50:07responsible for was politics and this50:09was like50:102 000 and i’m gonna say so all the50:14insights would seem quite pedestrian to50:16us now it’s like twitter it’s a thing50:18you know like50:18that was where we were at at you know50:20people should use facebook like this was50:22kind of where we were at50:24uh but part of the research we spoke to50:26several members50:27of um barack obama’s new media team50:30and one of whom uh a guy by the name of50:32chris hughes one of the co-founders50:34we interviewed him and him and i sort of50:36hit it off and and ended up striking a50:38bit of a friendship we were both you50:40know50:40into very similar things and a couple of50:43weeks later50:44i i emailed him and i was asking if i50:46could just come down for like the50:47weekend50:48you know can i just come down and just50:49like check out what was happening50:51because we momentum of the campaign was50:53starting to build up and people were50:54beginning to say hey these guys are50:55doing50:56really cool things with social media and50:59nobody was doing51:00similar things and so i really wanted to51:01go see um and he51:03wrote back and he said look like yes you51:05can come for the weekend but you know we51:06need all hands on deck so if you have51:08the time51:09this might be a crazy idea but why don’t51:11you just come down and just work with us51:13on it and it was one of those moments51:15you know the hairs on the back of your51:17neck stands up and you just think51:18this is an opportunity this is a and so51:21i put everything on pause51:23i packed my stuff up my uh husband then51:26boyfriend51:27drove me overnight to chicago and like51:30three51:30four days later i was on the as a51:33volunteer on the51:34digital like in national campaign51:36headquarters in chicago working on the51:39on the digital strategy which was such a51:41wild wild ride51:43yeah i would imagine so and it must be a51:46really interesting lens51:47to have you know looking now at politics51:51or51:51ever since then looking at politics and51:53elections and particularly so51:55for the american audience right now and51:57presumably for the french audience51:58looking ahead to 202252:00what should we understand about the52:02evolution of of digital culture52:04and how it affects political campaigns52:05and elections especially as we just52:07talked about52:07you know virality and remixability and52:10meme discourse and52:11and all of these different platforms52:13that are allowing the compression of52:15information52:16um what do we need to know and how do we52:19need to think about52:20political discourse and campaigning in52:22this moment52:25to me the most important things we need52:27to tackle52:28and i mean i don’t know why we can’t52:30just do this immediately52:32this is my like million dollar idea sort52:34of thing52:35is i think we need to have the capacity52:37on any52:38platform that we use to turn off the52:41algorithm52:42having an algorithm choose what we see52:45is52:46the one of the biggest threats because i52:48always ask people think about all the52:49information that you consume in a day52:51and think about what percentage of that52:53information was selected for you by an52:55algorithm52:56we need to have an ability to go outside52:58of this power that53:00this like little piece of code has to go53:02out and select our own information or53:05start holding companies accountable to53:06producing information that is much more53:09balanced they can’t do that we can’t say53:11hey you know what we’ve seen that you’ve53:13consumed 50 percent of your news from53:16this53:16one really biased source we’re going to53:19start piping in53:20other things for you to see so i think i53:22one understanding how influence53:24like how much we can be influenced i was53:25going to say influenceable but i don’t53:27know if that’s a word53:28you made it a word i don’t know here we53:30go you hear you have53:31i made it first but like how influenced53:33you can be and everyone thinks like53:35we’re these rational decision makers and53:38digital contagion is real53:39how your feet impacts your mood is real53:42the impact and the power of the words53:43you give to your friends is real53:45so all of these things have a much53:48bigger power over us as the cambridge53:49analytica thing mentioned than we would53:51like to admit so first and foremost we53:53need to understand these tools53:54can influence us for good or for bad53:58and then to look at the algorithm and54:00start to say okay like54:01we need to get people back to this54:04curiosity and seeking information out in54:07a way that’s much more balanced and if54:08they’re not going to do it for54:09themselves then we have to start holding54:10some of these technology companies54:12accountable for54:14piping certain information especially54:16when you have platforms54:18that can micro target you to the fact of54:21whether or not you took a vacation54:22whether or not you’ve ever searched for54:24cold medicine in the last three months54:25whether like think about that54:27and think about what it means for54:29somebody to say i know54:30everything about you and i’m gonna give54:32you the54:34thing that’s custom tailored to you54:36that’s most likely to change your mind54:38or most likely to get you to believe a54:39certain thing54:41that to me is terrifying because if54:42democracy depends on an informed54:44populace54:46we are eroding people’s capacity to be54:48informed54:50and so that is very terrifying to me54:52yeah54:53do you feel like this is a platform54:56requirement or do you feel like it’s a54:57regulation54:58regulatory requirement like something55:00that needs to happen55:01that there that consumers hold platforms55:04accountable to be able to55:05implement features that turn off55:06algorithm algorithmic feeds for example55:09or do we we think we need to go and make55:12sure that governments put55:13these regulations in place i mean being55:16in europe where they have a much more55:18um you know strict approach i think for55:21example55:22giving people the option to opt out55:25of an algorithm if they want should be55:28considered just like a digital right55:30you should be able to turn it off if you55:32want like55:33you should uh i don’t know why you can’t55:36so55:36i think and i reason i think that it has55:38to come from government is that55:40precedent has shown us that these55:41companies aren’t that great at55:42regulating themselves55:44and so it’s not just governments the55:46missing piece what people often don’t55:47like to hear55:48is we all want to point fingers at this55:50big company or that big company but it’s55:51like guess what we’re all using it we’re55:53all complicit if you’re using these55:55technologies actively you are complicit55:57and maybe complicit’s too harsh of a55:59word maybe it’s accountable you’re56:00accountable56:01for what’s happening so it’s also you56:04can’t turn around and say well this big56:06company did this and i don’t like it and56:07then it’s like okay well do you use56:09their services56:09yes to use their app yes did you read56:12the privacy terms56:13no did you read the terms of service no56:15then it’s kind of like okay well56:17we at some point too as citizens have to56:19stand up and take accountability for the56:21way that we use these tools56:22but it has to be like we have to push56:25for it they’re not going to56:27companies are not going to mess with56:29revenue models that bring them56:31hundreds of millions or billions of56:32dollars they’re just not going to do it56:34so we have to decide what the real cost56:36is and right now56:37the real cost is that we’re literally56:39selling pieces of our digital identities56:41to the highest bidder and we’re not56:43exactly sure how those pieces are being56:44used against us56:45that to me is terrifying i kind of56:48wonder tell me you think about this i56:49kind of wonder if in like 20 years56:51social networks will have the same56:52warning labels like cigarettes do you56:54know what i mean like at some point in56:5520 years we’ll look back and be like i56:57can’t believe they used to use all of56:58this data without any of these like57:00warnings but i don’t know sometimes i57:02just feel like people just57:04like don’t care it’s just gone so slowly57:05and so you know so far it’s like the57:08frog57:08in boiling water so yeah i think that’s57:11an interesting question57:12i’d like to throw it out to our audience57:14and see what people think if there’s a57:16um a future where we have warning labels57:19on algorithmic57:20experiences animalismic says do57:22consumers understand57:24enough about how platforms work to57:25request this referring to57:27yeah yeah and i think you’re you’re57:28shaking your head i agree57:30it seems like it’s uh it’s not just a57:33big ask for consumers to57:35to reach that level of education to be57:37able to hold comp companies and57:38platforms accountable57:40but there’s uh there’s so many competing57:43interests and and things competing for57:45people’s attention all the time57:46it’s hard enough just to get a simple57:48message through about57:50how algorithms do shape experiences let57:52alone the importance of how the57:54uh the blended algorithmic experiences57:57are shaping our57:58realities in terms of the political58:00outcomes and so on58:02but very good question anna i feel like58:04that’s a an important point well they58:06don’t58:06they don’t like when people and think58:08about it when the first social networks58:10came on stage and asked us to share58:13the our data with them there wasn’t that58:15much data and it wasn’t all connected58:17now it’s like websites can track you58:19across the web so like the information58:22that was available about you say in 200458:24is nowhere near the information that’s58:26available about you in 2020 but many58:28consumers seem to think like58:30still have that disconnected island view58:32and instead you know now you’re starting58:34to see okay we can actually track a58:36consumer58:36across websites acros like we can we58:39have such a58:40an interesting idea we can we can58:43triangulate it’s not just58:44where you are it’s your phone and it’s58:46the people that you’re with and it’s58:47your geo location and it’s all this58:49other stuff that i don’t even think58:51people realize they’re giving away58:53and that’s the problem and then they58:54think oh well i’m not doing anything58:56wrong58:56and like it’s like well that’s not the58:58point so59:00yeah i find we have to keep having those59:02conversations for sure59:04agreed yeah so one last thought or59:07question i wanted to ask you is i know59:09you were formerly the associate director59:10of the technology pioneer program at the59:12world economic forum59:13in geneva where you helped identify59:15disruptive startups that were improving59:17the state of the world and when59:18i think about you know one of the59:19recurring questions that i ask59:21guests is uh you know what technologies59:23do you see on the horizon that seem like59:25a boost to humanity it seems like you’re59:27in an interesting59:28place to have been observing that and59:30probably have a discipline of paying59:32attention to the technologies that are59:34emerging59:34so what do you when you think about what59:37could what technologies could actually59:38help humanity59:40what do you think about what types of59:42technologies occur to you59:45i mean for me the reality is is i think59:47everything that has the capacity to help59:49us59:49it’s just that it’s going to also59:51simultaneously hurt us in some new and59:53different ways and so59:55i try to navigate the complexity of how59:58can we hold that duality together60:00so for example if you take like even60:02just like ai60:03ai has done tremendous good for humanity60:07it’s helped us diagnose disease faster60:09it’s helped us60:10understand data better it’s helped us60:12like you know and there’s so many ways60:13that it’s actually improved the human60:15experience but at the same time it’s60:17also created a lot of new problems60:19so i think i think it’s all of the60:21technology has the capacity i mean60:23um we if it wasn’t for twitter or60:26facebook we would not have met that’s60:28right60:28right so and so i think about that and i60:31think well there are so many people i’m60:33close to60:33so anna who’s commenting her interesting60:36questions i met her60:37through you on twitter as well and so60:39it’s like if those platforms didn’t60:41exist my social network60:43my capacity to engage with interesting60:45smart people would be so limited60:46but at the same time it’s like the same60:48platform that gave you60:49these cool people is also the platform60:51that enables like trolls and enables60:54you know weird anti-social behavior so i60:57don’t necessarily think about what’s60:58going to help humanity i think about61:00what new what new challenges are going61:03to emerge with this technology and how61:05can we navigate that61:06because for every single case of facial61:09recognition that actually helps to catch61:11a criminal there’s a case of where it’s61:13being used to breach privacy61:16right i mean at least more than that61:19i mean you know but like smart cars are61:21gonna help they’re gonna hurt and so the61:22bigger question for me becomes is like61:24how can we prepare people to hold the61:26this duality because what worries me is61:28that a lot of the61:29tech crowd comes in and they try to push61:31you this utopian version61:33and then other people come in and they61:34try to push you the dystopian version61:37and the thing is is like both of those61:38are not true but both of those are true61:41in different ways it’s like i always say61:43it’s going to be equally awesome and61:44equally terrible at the same time and61:46that’s why it’s going to be so hard to61:48predict the future61:49because we’re going to have technology61:50that’s going to make our world amazing61:52and we’re going to have technology61:53that’s going to61:54equally make our world terrifying and we61:57just have to61:58continuously ask ourselves what side of62:00the equation are we falling on62:02i love that it’s so it really i relate62:04so much to the idea of holding that62:06duality and embracing62:07both the both and-ness of you know the62:09dystopia and the utopia62:11uh also it feels like that’s a real sort62:13of recurring theme through your work of62:15being able to say you know hey look62:17uh productivity’s great creativity’s62:19great you have to be able to62:21embrace the both and this of productive62:24time and downtime62:25in order to to be your best self and do62:27your best work right62:29yeah and you’re the one that said this62:30to me i think a long time ago when we62:32talked about your work and it was i62:33think we were talking about like this62:35idea of dystopia utopia62:37and i remember we said something along62:38the lines like well humans are62:40flawed and messy we’re great and we’re62:42awful all at the same time and so62:45how can we expect our technology to be62:46different right every act of altruism62:49every act of deviancy like those things62:51are just who we are as humans and so it62:53surprises me sometimes that we hold our62:55technology62:56to a standard that doesn’t even reflect62:58like our own62:59reality as a species we’re like a super63:02great species we’re a super trash63:04species depending on like63:06the issue and the time but that’s that63:08complexity is who we are and our63:10technological reality is63:11always going to reflect that fact that’s63:13perfect what a great note to to close on63:15and we’re at times so how can people63:17find and follow your amazing work63:19online uh i’m everywhere online so63:23rahafharfoush.com or rahafharfoush on63:26twitter or foushy on instagram would63:27love to connect63:28with people any friends of kate or63:30kate’s network of peers or people i63:32definitely want to meet so don’t be shy63:34come say hello63:35wonderful thank you so much raha thank63:37you everyone who’s tuned in and thank63:39you to our podcast listening audience63:41when it makes it to that63:42medium as well everyone have a wonderful63:44day thank you raha again and enjoy your63:46evening as i know it’s63:47a good deal later where you are63:51take care