because something’s screwing up01:46the live stream08:48hello everybody hello humans08:53uh glad to see some of you turning out i08:56think08:56uh everybody’s kind of excited we have a08:59good show lined up for you today09:01let me hear from the from those of you09:02who are already online09:04where are you tuning in from uh who’s09:07out there09:08say hi let’s get some audience09:10interaction going because we’re gonna09:12want that audience interaction i want09:13you guys asking questions09:15of our guest today i will have some nice09:17interactions some fun09:19uh we’ll have a good time so go ahead09:21and start commenting let me know who’s09:23out there and09:24and where you’re where you’re dialing in09:26from09:28hope you’re not dialing in we’ve uh09:31we’ve moved past the dial-in days on the09:33internet09:34uh thank goodness so uh if you’re just09:37joining09:38for the first time this is the tech09:40humanist show09:42and it is a multimedia format program09:44exploring how data and technology shape09:47the human experience09:48we’ve got sam lau from southern09:51california hi sam09:52welcome um and09:56go back here so i’m your host obviously09:58kate o’neil and09:59uh oh i’m georgia from chicago10:04that’s my mom my mom is tuned in that’s10:07fun10:08we’ve got mark bernhard from wisconsin10:11yay hi mark10:13and davia davia uh tuning in from10:16jamaica glad to have you10:19we’re we’re truly cosmopolitan now we’re10:21all over the place10:23so you hopefully your fault i see i see10:26um10:27sam and mark are tuned in from linkedin10:30and10:30uh my mom georgia is tuned in from10:32youtube10:33and davia is tuned in from facebook so10:35good we’re getting good10:36good uh reach across all the different10:38channels we stream across10:40youtube facebook linkedin twitter and10:43twitter although no one watches on10:45twitch if you’re watching on twitch10:47give a special shout out because i don’t10:50think we’ve had10:51any viewers from twitch so far um10:54all right so i’m going to go ahead and10:56introduce our guest because i know10:57that’s why10:58a lot of you are tuned in today it’s11:00really exciting11:02today we are talking with john c havens11:05who is executive director of the ieee11:08global initiative on11:09ethics of autonomous and intelligence11:11systems he is11:12also executive director of the council11:14on extended intelligence or cxi11:17he previously served as an evp at a top11:2010 global pr firm11:22where he counseled clients like gillette11:24hp and merck11:25on emerging and social media social11:28media issues11:29he is authored the book’s heart official11:31intelligence if you caught that it’s11:33heart official intelligence and hacking11:36happiness11:37and has been a contributing writer from11:38mashable the guardian and the huffington11:40post he’s been quoted on issues related11:42to technology11:43business and well-being by usa today11:46fast company bbc news11:48mashable the guardian the huffington11:50post11:51forbes inc if you are awakened11:54advertising age it just goes on and on11:56wait there’s more this is the best line12:00in the entire bio you ready12:02john so a professional actor in new york12:05city for over 15 years12:07appearing in principal roles on broadway12:09television and film so please audience12:11start getting your questions ready for12:13our fantastic12:14guest and please welcome the obviously12:18multi-talented12:19john c havens john you are live on the12:22tech humanist show12:24yeah kate o’neil hey12:28thank you so much for being here it is12:31an honor to be here seriously i’m stoked12:33to be on your show thank you12:34i’m stoked to have you you have a fan12:37following12:39announce the show i i typically do over12:42the weekend and12:43all of a sudden there was just this12:45mountain of of12:46uh in of in stream streaming in12:49notifications that people were super12:51excited and and12:52i got a bunch of outreach from in and12:54everywhere going like oh my gosh i’m so12:56glad you’re having john on the show so12:58your your audience is very excited right13:01now13:03well thank you very much and again honor13:05to be here and by the way you were13:06rocking the glasses13:07headset thing i mean it’s like you13:10should look like13:11really good i could probably just like13:13glue the top of them on to the top of my13:15headset13:18i’m never gonna be seen without the13:20sunglasses on my head it’s one of my13:21please13:23i’d be sad one of my brand things i13:25don’t know so naturally john i gotta13:27start off13:28the question that’s the part of your bio13:30that’s the least relevant to the topic13:32of the show13:33but the most colorful so you were a13:35professional actor tell us all about it13:38yeah i moved to new york in 1992 um13:41when i was like four i’m kidding anyway13:44i moved to new york and13:46yeah i was in the screen actor skill uh13:48equity had a great agent13:49for about 15 years i did small parts but13:53like in law and order13:54law and order svu i did a partner13:56broadway show13:57and uh yeah i was an actor for 15 years14:00that’s fantastic14:01i i love so it just sort of reinforces14:04my14:05long-standing theory that people who14:07have lived multiple lives within their14:08lifetime14:09are the most interesting that’s very14:13cool14:14and so what what’s the trajectory there14:17though like14:18when do you go from acting to advising14:21companies on social media to14:23leading ethical guidance for the world’s14:25largest association of tactical14:26professionals14:28sure that’s a normal trajectory um14:32i think a lot of it comes from14:33introspection um my dad was a14:35psychiatrist he’s passed away14:37my mom is a minister so apparently i was14:40just raised in a household where like14:41examining your feelings was kind of a14:43thing14:44um and then acting most of your work14:46being the human condition14:48and then i was on sets a lot of times my14:50parts were comedic14:51roles and i did a lot of really bad14:53industrial films like bob i don’t think14:55the photocopier works that way14:58and they’d say can you make this funny15:00and so i went from writing scripts15:02uh to then working in pr and that’s15:05where i got the pr15:06job back when i got that pr job my15:08friend was like15:10come help me run the new york office of15:11this big pr firm and i was like i don’t15:13know about pr15:14no one here under twitter and i was like15:17um15:17and then i found out about ieee when i15:20was writing a book on ai ethics15:21and i pitched them about this idea so15:23that’s the fast version of the15:25trajectory15:26well how did you get to writing the book15:27on ai ethics was that part of the work15:29you were doing with the pr firm or was15:31that15:31on your own somehow pure unbridled fear15:35fear matter seriously it was about15:38six years ago i was writing a series for15:40mashable all those articles are still15:42live and um what i was finding is that15:45even back six years ago there were there15:48were only the extremes15:49here’s the dystopian aspect of ai here’s15:52the utopian and i just kept calling15:55people15:55and saying okay is there a code of15:57ethics for ai because i’d like to know15:59and that will kind of help balance16:01things out and more and more no one knew16:02of ones16:03like like here’s the here’s the code of16:05ethics for ai from the yada yada you16:07know16:08doc you know and so i was like that16:10seems like a good thing to have16:11yeah and you have16:14helped create what is one of the most16:18useful and informative sets of design16:21ethics but16:22or design guidelines i should say but16:24we’ll come to that because16:26i want to make sure that we also build16:28into you know16:29your uh your job now your your multiple16:32roles there are a lot of words16:36i wonder if you could briefly explain16:38your various roles for us16:41so many words i’m going to take the rest16:43of this episode16:45enjoy uh well first of all i should say16:47this i am deeply honored to work at ieee16:50i love my job16:51on the show i’m john so i’m speaking16:54it’s john not all of my16:56statements formally obviously um you16:58know represent at your belief so16:59disclaimer alert retweets are not17:01endorsements yeah exactly so you know17:04but i just want to say that um so one17:06job17:07what happened is that this book about uh17:09a artificial intelligence was really17:11saying17:12what is it about our own values as17:14individuals we may not know17:16because if we don’t ask we won’t know17:18and then if we don’t know them we can’t17:20live to them17:21so it’s pretty basic right people often17:23why i’m17:24unhappy and if you don’t actually know17:26your values17:27maybe you’re not living to your values17:28it’s not the only reason you’ll be17:30unhappy but it’s one of them17:32so this is a big jump so enjoy anyone17:34technical on the phone17:35but when you come to like data17:37scientists human uh17:38hci human computer values17:42alignment it’s a technical term but it’s17:44similar right17:45what are you building who’s going to use17:47it what are their values how can you17:49align it17:50so i was writing this book um really17:52thinking about17:53how is our personal data related to our17:55values and then how are all these17:57beautiful machines and technologies kind17:59of in one sense looking back at us18:01and i just had the really good fortune18:03there were some senior people from ieee18:05in the audience it was at south by18:06southwest they’d asked me to come speak18:09and i pitched them and i got really18:10lucky there’s this18:12guy named constantinos cataholios he’s18:14the managing director of ieee standards18:16association18:18and he and so many people at ieee had18:20already been planning something along18:21these lines18:22so i was really catalyst and then18:24there’s hundreds of people who’ve18:26actually really done18:27the work to create all the work perfect18:30because you know18:30i think a lot of people for a long time18:33have thought of18:34ieee as a sort of a a dry18:37organization concerned primarily with18:39standards and whatnot i mean that that’s18:41kind18:42of the impression that i had when i18:44first came into attack18:4525 years ago so it’s interesting to18:48change and18:49and you know to know the origin of that18:52change but18:53how did how did you come to hold roles18:55that are so clearly focused on human18:57impacts was it that the18:58shape was already being created or did18:59you bring that that19:01uh the vision of that to the role19:05um well first of all tribally uh the19:08tagline itself is one of the reasons i19:10actually wanted to work19:12with the organization it’s advancing19:13technology for humanity19:15i actually i genuinely love that yeah19:17when i when i first pitched this idea19:19and constantinos19:21it resonated with he built on it i can’t19:23say enough good things about him19:25he’s kind of a mentor and he’s brilliant19:27but that word for19:28fo r right advancing technologies for19:31humanity it goes back to values19:34what is the success you’re trying to19:36build you can’t just be like yay19:38we’re advancing technology for humanity19:40how are you doing that19:41what does that mean so he and so many19:44other people within ieee19:46and then ieee is volunteer driven so 70019:49people19:50wrote ethically aligned design uh19:52constantinos and the team kind of helped19:54shape how it started19:55but then it was really the experts who19:57wrote the different sections19:58in consensus that created the document20:01it got20:01pages of feedback and it had three20:03versions and a lot of that feedback also20:06came from people20:07the first version was like americans20:08people from the eu created it20:10but then we got feedback from south20:12korea mexico city and japan which was20:15awesome20:15because many of them said this seems20:18really good but it feels non-west20:19or yeah it feels very western you need20:21more non-western views and so20:24that always to me and this is like the20:25favorite part of my job is like huh20:28feedback that means you want to join a20:30committee awesome20:34well that’s great i i think it’s really20:36uh it’s important that you were open to20:38that feedback that you you know you got20:40that kind of feedback20:41it it shows a lot of trust that your20:44constituency20:45came back and said can we incorporate20:48more of a viewpoint that20:49that that deviates from you know this20:52kind of western20:53standard agreed20:57yeah we so i you know i think what’s so21:00interesting to me is you know21:01i i read through your book artificial21:05intelligence21:06and you have a couple of uh quotes in21:09there that that really stood out so21:10one is that you said i am not anti-ai21:14i am pro-human which you know that21:16resonates with me21:17um but also i feel like it ties into21:20what you were just talking about it with21:21the slogan of21:22ieee but what to you what does it mean21:24to be21:25pro-human yeah by the way owe you a cup21:29of coffee for reading the whole21:30book it was wonderful21:33oh thank you thank you um i think21:35especially from a media narrative21:37standpoint there’s a lot of21:39us versus them titles that we’re often21:42working against in both ieee and the21:44work and the council on extended21:45intelligence21:46where you re and i’m doing this for21:48effect right you know21:50x new ai whatever new ai program21:53playing a sport or something destroyed21:56this human in soccer right these21:59extreme hyperbolic terms like22:01eviscerated a human22:04and it’s like how do you read that and22:05as a human just as anybody22:07not feel kind of like like crab you’re22:10like22:11and it it makes the technology and the22:14human22:14feel devalued and more importantly22:18the pro human thing means it’s okay to22:20recognize22:22that humans are inherently different22:25than the machines and the tools that22:27we’re building and to honor both22:29you can say here’s where they’re22:31different it doesn’t mean you’re saying22:32this is bad22:33but for instance and i won’t go into22:35this unless you want to because it gets22:37very philosophy geeky22:38right but i’m all about the philosophy22:40geeky22:41all right two hours later22:46a lot of western ethics is built on22:48rationality right and rationalities a22:50lot of like democratic ideas come from22:52awesome right but the yes and to22:55rationality22:56is things like relationality how do you22:58and i interact as people with our23:00emotion23:01and then the systems how do we interact23:03with nature23:04so if you kind of look at through one23:07lens23:08uh only a feature of who humans are it23:11can be easy to say well humans are only23:13about what’s in our brain23:15and once john’s just information the23:17cognitive23:18sort of stuff i have in my hard drive is23:20kind of spilled out23:22that’s all i am but i’m a musician i’m23:24an actor i’m a dad23:26i’m a friend of kate honored to be here23:28right23:29and that means those those ephemera23:32are not minor in terms of how it means23:35we relate to each23:36other and we relate to the world and23:37then when you go especially to23:38non-western traditions like the shinto23:40tradition in japan23:42or many indigenous traditions around the23:44world we cannot assume23:46anybody royal we making technology23:49that unless we know how others frame23:52these ethical questions about how they23:54look at human23:55that the system building are going to be23:57applicable to them we have to know what23:59they are24:00and work together um you know towards24:02consensus so say all that24:04what i want to get more at a in a24:08in a minute into you know that sort of24:12compilation of ethical views and all the24:15all the philosophical viewpoints that24:17sort of cobble together24:19to inform that but but i still want to24:21stay with this pro-human24:22idea because i feel like also what24:24you’re talking about there24:26you know you talked about the human24:27condition earlier and it feels like24:30some of what you’re saying is this24:32multi-dimensionality is a really24:33important facet24:34of humanity and of being pro-human is24:37that fair is that a fair24:38characterization of what you’re saying24:40yeah i think it’s easy and i sympathize24:42or should say understand24:44a lot of times people are like well let24:46usually it’s ai but let this technology24:48take over because humans have screwed24:50everything up24:51right it’s a it’s the sentiment is24:55understandable right people make24:57mistakes we’re all flawed24:58but i’m not quite sure what someone yeah25:01i tend to get frustrated to sometimes25:02with those statements because i’m like25:03well25:04a people build the systems25:07for you so you know like guess what25:10secondly it’s the systems underneath the25:13technology that need to be addressed25:15right and then third i have this sitting25:17by my desk25:18um i’ll read this to you it’s this25:20japanese adage25:22in japan broken objects are often25:24repaired with gold25:25the flaw is a unique piece subject’s25:28history which adds to its beauty25:30consider this when you feel broken right25:33like what are we supposed to be25:34perfect what does that mean and what’s a25:37perfect man what’s a perfect woman25:38what’s a perfect american what’s a25:40sense not who cares right we’re asking25:43to understand our values25:45but the starting point for me as a25:47person and a lot of work that we’re25:48doing and i25:49focused on well-being is to say25:52inherently all humans have25:53worth simply because they exist and so25:56to start to frame the humanness being25:58worthwhile26:00because of up here immediately means26:03we’re saying26:04we’re willing to design technology that26:06is in one sense only for a very small26:09portion of the planet26:10which is not the case with me is not the26:12case with ieee26:14so if that makes sense that’s the deeper26:16human stuff it makes great sense to me26:18i also want to remind the audience feel26:20free to start26:21funneling in any kind of questions if if26:23you’re hearing what john is saying and26:25you have questions about what we’re26:27talking about please go ahead and ask26:28them but you know here’s one that i have26:30is26:30another excerpt from artificial26:32intelligence is you wrote26:34if machines are the natural evolution of26:36humanity we owe it to ourselves to take26:38a full measure of who we are right now26:40so we can program these machines with26:42the ethics and values we hold dear26:44and here’s a question i get asked all26:46the time and i’d love to pass it along26:48to you26:48whose ethics and whose values are we26:51programming26:52and how can we be sure we’re getting26:53that decision right26:56uh my ethics26:59john’s way or the highway27:02you know it’s not aggressive it’s just27:04it’s the way to go no27:06question i mean first of all um applied27:09ethics right there’s a lot of discussion27:10around27:11aiox and i’m using air quotes maybe too27:14much27:14but it’s a huge phrase what do we mean27:17by ai27:18is it machine learning is it you know27:20inverse reinforcement learning what do27:22we mean by ethics27:23is it just philosophy or is it27:25compliance27:27but the basic idea is applied ethics is27:30essentially designed right in form of27:32design it’s saying we want to build a27:34technology27:35who are we building it for what is the27:38definition of value27:39for what we’re building oftentimes the27:42value framed in27:43exponential growth right not just profit27:45i want to be clear27:46we all need money to pay bills and and27:48profit is what sustains an organization27:51but exponential growth is an ideology27:55that it’s not just about getting some27:57profit or speed27:58it’s about doing this well when you when28:01you maximize28:02any one thing other things by definition28:05empirically take less of a focus28:09and especially with humans that can be28:11things like mental health28:12right i got to kick out this technology28:15to the world28:16because i’m pressured because of market28:18needs28:19this is not bad or evil this is why the28:21term ethics can be so confusing28:24but it is a decision and in this case28:26it’s a key performance indicator28:27decision28:28where there may be pressure the priority28:30is to get something say to market28:32versus how can we get something to28:34market that best28:35honors end user values in the context of28:38the region where they are28:40kind of to your last question and then28:42also how do we understand28:44what risk and harm is in the algorithmic28:47era28:48because one thing i’ll say quickly here28:49is a lot of times people are like ai is28:51just the new tech28:52you know and i’m like sorry it’s just28:54not here’s why28:57data right is key 100 years ago like the29:00first car29:00or whatever didn’t have data that would29:03measure us and then go to the cloud29:06so human data being measured and the29:08ability to immediately go to the cloud29:10is utterly different and how that data29:13is translated back to us about who we29:15are is deeply affecting human agency29:18identity and emotion29:19yeah it’s almost like the the earlier29:21example the car29:23is deciding where to drive us or at29:25least recommending29:26well you’re saying you want to drive to29:28chicago but detroit is nicer this time29:31of year29:32you should really go to detroit29:35well what do we do about all of the29:38human bias that’s already encoded into29:40data sets and algorithms and business29:42logic and29:43and all of that i think the easiest29:46thing is just hate29:47everyone universally right just pure29:49irrational29:50yeah no not relational but rational yes29:54um i think first of all for me is29:57there’s different levels i’m learning29:59about bias and again i want to be clear30:01i’m speaking here as john30:02not a psychiatrically the whole30:03organization um and if i have the book30:05here i’ll show it30:06yeah i have the book here so one thing30:08that you know everyone30:10assumedly in the industry the ai30:12industry is focused on is things like30:14eradicating bias30:16and here personal heroes of mine joy30:18bulamuni30:19uh has done some phenomenal work with30:21aspects to um30:23you know any device that won’t measure30:25brown or dark skin or or black skin30:27tones in the same way as white tones30:29she’s also done some amazing work with30:31the actual terminology30:33and i’m blanking on the term but like30:35the taxonomy of how30:37different data sets are created around30:40the framing of those skin colors anyway30:42joy bulimi30:43awesome the thing i think i’m just30:46learning30:47and i’ll hold up the book that’s called30:49race after technology by dr ruja30:51benjamin from princeton30:52and forgive me if you i know you’ve30:54interviewed people i think you’ve talked30:55about this type of stuff30:56um and i heard about her from the30:58radical ai podcast30:59shout out to my friends dylan and jess31:01they have a great show31:02um benjaminus on the show she gave the31:05example about bias and i’m going to31:07paraphrase this wrong so please31:09read her book but the logic of for31:11people creating tools31:13looking for data anyone creating ai they31:16might go to say like i live in new31:18jersey right so there’s an area of new31:19jersey where there’s a hundred thousand31:21citizens31:22who have been measured by one metric31:24which is the census data31:25right so a hundred thousand people live31:27here then there’s data about31:29something health or medical oriented all31:31these hundred thousand people31:33x amount did whatever in terms of i31:35don’t know cardiology31:37now that that insight or that data about31:40that data set31:41is now what’s being used hypothetically31:44or in reality but i’m giving an example31:46by everyone creating ai and then they’re31:49saying31:50we’re saying let’s make sure that that31:52ai31:53is accountable and transparent fair and31:55all those things which is we should31:57but she made the key point to me which31:58blew my mind and i’m32:00frankly a little embarrassed i hadn’t32:01thought of it before is32:03the assumption is that of those hundred32:06thousand32:07all hundred thousand citizens have32:09access to the health and medical data32:12when in fact whether it’s marginalized32:14populations whether it’s people that32:16just didn’t have you know32:17they weren’t able whatever the number32:19may be significantly lower32:21so underlying and analyzing the systems32:24by the way is a design32:25thing i know the term marginalized32:27obviously can be very32:29heated and whatever else for me let’s32:32move some of those terms out they’re32:33critically important32:34but the point is as people who want to32:36design this technology holistically well32:38for everyone32:40especially dr benjamin’s ideas really32:42helped me think about32:43we have to be thinking about building32:45for all not just those who we are32:47building for not realizing who we’re32:49missing32:49in the process well and you’re speaking32:52about32:52layers of design right it’s it’s the32:56important thing about a term like32:57marginalization and what it implies32:59is that there are systems and we can33:01recognize that there are33:02but you’re i think a lot of times the33:05the33:06design of technology or of technological33:08experiences33:10is focused on the technology and not on33:13the sociological33:14and cultural implications that are33:16wrapped in and around that technology33:18and i think33:19so much of what’s important about the33:21work that you’ve been doing and the work33:22of some of the people that you’ve33:23mentioned33:24is to unpack a lot of those those33:26assumptions and say33:28it’s not just going to exist in a void33:31or vacuum33:32it’s going to be used in culture and33:34these things create33:36experiences that scale our culture and33:38we need to be able33:39to understand you know what the33:41implications of of those design33:42decisions are33:44yeah exactly so i i want to ask you too33:48about automation because we have33:50actually had a pretty good amount of33:51discussion with some of the guests who33:53have been on33:54the show past episodes of the show so33:55far about ai ethics33:58and less about automation per se34:01and obviously i realize that a lot of34:03what needs unpacking about automation34:05does have to do with intelligence34:07but there are still questions about what34:09we automate and how34:11and who is affected so do you anticipate34:14ever being a discourse on the ethics of34:16automation that that gets much attention34:18that’s34:19separate or related to the ethics of ai34:23well i’m really glad you asked that we34:24for ethically line design34:26uh we actually use the term uh34:28autonomous and intelligent systems34:30because to your point you know if we34:32want to define artificial intelligence34:34we’d be here for seven hours34:35you know when you get in a room of34:37anybody defining it34:39it’s it’s very challenging so at least34:41to your point or i’m saying34:42i agree with you we said let’s talk34:44about automation34:46versus air quote intelligence without34:48being anthropomorphic34:49but the term intelligent systems is a a34:52classifier of say like certain types of34:56uh learning and what have you automation34:59you know everyone uses this example and35:01i always forget what it’s called but in35:03a car for the like the last 30 years35:05uh cruise control right you’re driving35:07at 60 miles an hour and you push a35:09button that’s already option35:10and then we’re used to with simple tools35:13i don’t know35:14spell check things like that’s a play a35:16good example35:18a lot of my book was focused on what are35:20the things either that we don’t35:22ever want to automate we want to make35:25sure that we have the option to be in35:26the midst of35:28that process and not always automate35:31so a good example i give there say like35:33a dating app35:34right the tools and this is like35:36e-harmony and some of the other services35:38use35:39really complex and frankly very35:41impressive35:42machine learning uh algorithms to help35:45you choose who you’d want to be with35:47and by the way some of the some of these35:49things there’s not a moral or ethical35:50issue it’s like35:51do you live in denver colorado yes do35:54you want to date someone in nome alaska35:56no thank you you know so it’s not like35:59this complex thing36:01but the thing is at some point there may36:03be aspects of a decision someone else36:05has made36:07where you now aren’t in the mix and36:09maybe you won’t meet a person36:10who you would have met under different36:12circumstances by the way that happens in36:14real life as well36:16point is is if we have upfront36:18disclosure36:19about those tools access to data and36:22most36:22importantly we have a choice and we know36:25that we have that choice and we make the36:27choice36:28this is where for instance in my life i36:30don’t want anything36:31to quote automate my decision around36:35parenting right or whatever it is it’s36:37not that it’s wrong or right it’s just36:38that that reflects my36:40values is hey look at this parenting app36:43i don’t have to do anything hey son36:45talking to here apparently you’re mad36:47you know36:47yada yada what do i do okay i’m supposed36:49to spank you36:50right that is totally fictional but my36:53point is is like36:54how easy it could be to avoid any choice36:57this is not about the technology36:58technology is astoundingly beautiful and37:00amazing37:02but us not being in the mix means that37:05we don’t learn37:06ourselves or train ourselves or focus on37:08our own values well there was just that37:09article in i don’t remember if it was37:11the new york times or what but that was37:13about37:14parents sort of offloading the the37:17dictation of terms of various kinds to37:20their children37:21to their alexas and smart speakers so if37:25they need to tell37:26a kid what to do it’s like have the37:29smart speaker tell the kid what to do37:31or something like that so the job of37:34discipline37:34is already i think being automated in37:36some sense but i think37:38to some of what you’re saying there’s37:40there’s the distinction between37:42automating away versus automating around37:45like you know when you talk about37:47automating parenting37:49i think you know it’s implied that37:50you’re saying you don’t want to automate37:51away37:52parenting but you could certainly make37:55some37:55seamlessness or some conveniences around37:57parenting through automation and it37:59wouldn’t be38:00uh it wouldn’t necessarily be a moral uh38:03controversy right38:05no not at all and i’m glad you brought38:06it up and i will say though the metrics38:09are key here right like as a parent i38:11have two kids who were young i would38:13have given38:14a good amount of money to sleep through38:16the night when they were getting sleep38:17trained for instance38:18right and and a lot of these a lot of38:21these tools can read bedtime stories etc38:23but i wrote an article about this um i38:26have to i’ll send you the link for the38:27show notes um38:29where where the question that i about is38:31take something to the nth degree and38:33again it will be clear this is not about38:34the technique38:35right this is about societal choices but38:38what happens if you use like six38:39different parenting38:40apps or tools and eventually your kid38:43says38:43you know i’m good you know dad i know38:45you wanted to go on a walk with me or38:47you wanted to talk about whatever but38:49i’m going to go through my six or seven38:50different things and38:52thanks so much i i don’t really i don’t38:54want you to read me a story i don’t want38:55you to take me on a walk i hang a robot38:58i don’t need your advice about girls38:59great 21st century cat’s cradle39:02story and i’m not trying to judge any39:05family or or a kid39:07right like balance of i’m not telling a39:09kid what they should or shouldn’t do but39:10i think39:10if we sort of usurp i’m sorry if we39:13eschew39:14and give away that and what i’m saying39:17give away is more like the ultimate39:19sense of39:20of why looking at our values and this in39:23case for parenting39:24are so critical the answer is outside of39:27the technology39:28right or policy you may wake up one day39:31and be like39:31what did i just give away i don’t know39:34but the metrics are critical here39:36right because mostly a lot of times um39:39and this is outside of like gdp and39:41exponential growth39:43um we tend to focus on39:46what can i do to get from five now to be39:48happy and a lot of times that39:50productivity i can be more productive39:52so we ignore the now and a lot of my39:54work has been in positive39:56psychology my last two books focused a39:58lot most of gratitude is just being able40:00to look at what you have now40:02and say this is stuff i really treasure40:04and value40:05and then that’s where you’d be able to40:06make that decision if parenting for40:08instance is one of those40:10things well then i’m going to allocate40:12time with my kids40:14even though that half an hour or hour at40:16dinner i could be doing more work40:19so it’s actually very pragmatic and40:20practical and that’s most of what my40:22last two books are focused on40:24is please think about this so you can40:27make these choices40:28so you’re not 10 years later like you40:30know to your point cat’s cradle40:32weeping in your beer like why don’t my40:34kids talk to me anymore40:35you know they talk to the smart speakers40:37still40:38[Laughter]40:40it’s also it reminds me in in my own40:43work one of the things that i talk about40:44is40:45with with the concept of meaning uh40:47being a very human-centric40:48concept and that meaningful experiences40:52the meaningfulness is one of the the40:54great40:55sort of characteristics of experiences40:57that we should be40:58trying to design through technology and41:00beyond but41:01that one of the things that happens with41:03automation it feels like is that we41:05focus a lot on as you say productivity41:08and we try to automate the things that41:10are41:10mundane or repetitive or that that feel41:13like they take away41:15our cognitive focus and yet41:18i feel like if you take that to scale41:21and you41:22only have automated the things that are41:24mundane and meaningless41:25then you end up in a horrible dystopia41:28when that41:28is what surrounds us and so there’s this41:31kind of counterpoint where i feel like41:33we need to be infusing more meaning and41:35i think it comes back to your idea of41:36infusing the values into into the41:39discussion and making sure that what’s41:41automated reflects41:42meaning and reflects values but it isn’t41:45automating the meaningful41:47things that you’re doing is that would41:49you agree with that41:51yeah i would and i i think also i’ve41:53read a lot of41:54media where there’s a lot of assumptions41:57that i would even call41:58if not arrogant certainly dismissive if42:00not wildly rude42:02so you know there’s you’ll read an42:04article that’s like well this machine42:05does x it shovels because no one wants42:07to shovel42:08for a living right i’m just bringing42:10this up and no that’s good it’s a good42:12point42:12on the tech right if like there’s a john42:14deere automated shoveler42:16i’m sure it’s fantastic is to say we’ve42:18all done jobs42:20of any kind uh that elements of it you42:24really don’t like42:25and you wish could be automated but42:27usually that’s because you do the job42:29long enough to realize this part of my42:31job i wish42:32would be automated right things like42:34shoveling i don’t know42:36yeah a lot of people would not be like42:38give me 40 years of shoveling42:39i’ve done a lot of like especially when42:42i was a younger person i did a lot of42:44like42:44you know camp counselor jobs for the42:46summer where i was outside42:48you know i was doing physical labor it42:49was awesome that said42:51i knew okay this was great for what it42:53was i kind of don’t want to do this for42:55my whole42:56life but the other thing there which i42:58really get upset about when i read some42:59of those articles43:01is what if whatever the job is insert43:03job x43:04which could be automated is how someone43:06makes their living43:07right then it’s not just a value43:09judgment about the nature of the actual43:11labor itself43:13but is sort of saying like really what43:15someone says there43:16is from the economic side of it it’s43:19justified to automate anything that can43:21be automated43:22because someone can make money from it43:24outside of43:26what that person needs to do to make43:28money for them and their family43:29and again a company having a cool idea43:32to build something that’s automation43:34oriented43:34that’s awesome but we have to have the43:36discussion about43:38what jobs you know might go away where43:40again the metrics are43:42if it’s exponential growth ultimately43:45then i don’t see why anything that43:47humans do would not be automated43:50period like i have not been to a policy43:52meeting or whatever yet where someone’s43:53like hold on43:54we need to not build x because some43:57humans won’t whatever the work43:59discussion comes up44:00a lot right but there’s no like policy44:02saying okay44:04uh veterinarians nothing’s going to be44:07automated with veterinarians ever again44:09because animals touched by humans or44:12whatever you know44:13but why is that not brought up it’s44:15because44:16there’s the assumption at all times that44:19the main44:21indicator of success is exponential44:24growth44:25and a lot of my work is to say i don’t44:27think that’s true44:28especially when mental health and the44:29environment come into play what about44:31those two pretty big areas44:33of our lives yeah that’s a really44:36good distinction and i think it’s also44:38it leads me into another question that i44:40had which is around44:42that we talk a lot when it comes to44:44automation about i think the first44:46impact people tend to think of is the44:48automation as it relates to human jobs44:50and human work44:51in the not distant future and and how44:54that’s going to displace and44:55replace in some cases categories of jobs44:58and it certainly feels like that’s an45:00important topic but it feels like it’s45:01also important to step back and45:03look even more broadly at the way45:06automation affects45:07categories of human experiences as a45:09whole right across45:10employment and healthcare and45:13communication45:14and government and and so on so when you45:18think about that45:19where do you spend the most mental45:22cycles or mental energy45:23when it comes to automation and the45:24future of humanity and making sure we45:26get45:27that focus right in terms of the policy45:29in terms of the way we we go about45:31implementing around45:32it oh great question um there’s three45:35things45:36in an ethically aligned design now45:37here’s where i’m i’m being either pitchy45:39or i’m not objective and a lot of this45:42is because the 700 volunteers that wrote45:44ethically line design they’re friends45:46and i massively respect45:48the work they did so we have the first45:50chapter of a 300 page document45:53is our general principles and the logic45:55is those other chapters inform those45:57general principles like which one should45:58we have and then from a consensus kind46:01of voting46:01standpoint um the logic was we ordered46:04those three first general principles in46:07the order of importance46:08so the first principle is human rights46:11and that’s something that46:12a lot of the lawyers you know and the46:14work that we had were like hey46:16and the first couple times i said it46:18frankly it kind of me maybe because it’s46:19like this is easy we finally were able46:21to draft something46:22but we had this big event in austin and46:24a lot of the lawyers were like look46:26ethics is great applied ethics we get it46:28that’s design46:29we cannot ignore international human46:31rights assets been established from the46:33un and whoever else46:35i thought that made sense and globally46:38human rights is very challenging46:40how do you implement it etc etc but it’s46:42also it is international46:44right the logic is any country violates46:46human rights46:47any country supports human rights in46:49different instances but the point is46:51if when you’re building any technology46:54but especially with ai46:56a first lense is what can we look at46:58like the rougie principles or roughy i47:01always get this wrong47:02ruggy principles anyway those principles47:04the un principles as they were47:06adapted to business that lens of let’s47:09not design47:10something that knowingly would violate47:12human rights and that to me is47:13that’s a line in the same and again that47:15comes from ethically aligned design not47:16just non47:17uh the second area is data agency or47:20data sovereignty47:21and that means beyond privacy right gdpr47:25in the states the california privacy47:27acts e-estonia47:29all this amazing work saying how do we47:31protect people’s data47:33but you know in one sense it’s like what47:35else are we going to do47:36right like government’s protecting47:38people’s data that’s kind of the job47:40right now i’m not saying this in a47:41teasing sense i’m saying like thank god47:43for the gdpr47:44however that does not empower the person47:49to be able to say with my identity47:51source47:52kind of a personal data locker right47:54john has his data47:56then when i want to exchange data with47:58my friend you47:59i can do it in a peer-to-peer way48:01blockchain or whatever48:02i have access to my data i have48:04portability of my data48:06this is data sovereignty the end user48:09means they actually have a voice and48:11especially now that we’re getting into48:13augmented and virtual and extended48:14reality right and the spatial web48:17we have to understand in every art48:19conversation48:21to move not just talk about privacy but48:23we must talk about data sovereignty48:25and giving people agency over their data48:27the last thing i’ll say i’ve already48:29touched on48:30is what we talk about well-being48:32indicators that term can be confusing48:35because people being and they think48:36wellness48:37and it sounds like a yoga mat or48:40something48:41or it may be like well-being that’s like48:43fitness it’s not it’s48:45started with bhutan’s gross national48:46happiness now there’s the un48:48sdgs the oecd has their better life48:51index48:51it simply means that when we build48:53anything multiple lenses48:55of societal success must be taken into48:58account48:59or we will build for the one thing that49:01we say is the most important49:02it’s not really rocket science and it’s49:04not about good or evil or whatever else49:06it’s about recognizing that49:08years ago the gross domestic product was49:10born in bretton woods new hampshire49:12with very specific values at the time49:15news flash49:16was written by men and that’s why49:18caregiving for instance49:20is not recognized in the gdp guess what49:22right now the world is facing the most49:24with kovid49:25the lack of caregiving right how49:28ludicrous would it be to design49:30a tracing app or anything for covit and49:32be like caregiving i don’t need to know49:34right but it wasn’t put in the gdp so49:37that doesn’t mean throughout the gdp49:39with the bathwater49:40but it certainly means other measures49:43must be used when we create these49:45amazing technologies and here i’ll end49:47with49:48an amazing precedent which is new49:49zealand i bow down to new zealand49:52we all do prime minister i have a very49:56appropriate49:56and ethical crush on you um they do so50:00much work they had a well-being50:022019 budget where they just have five50:04areas fiscal is one of them50:05right kind of the gdp those metrics can50:07still be used50:09but they talk about children’s mental50:10health and they talk about the50:12environment50:13and then their ai plan it’s a whole50:15separate ai plan50:16the success metrics for the ai the50:19technology they build50:20ladders up to that all five of them have50:23to be served50:24not just one and by the way not even50:26just children’s mental health right it’s50:28a balance50:29that also means the money really is50:30about how do we serve our people and our50:32planet50:33with the money versus exponential growth50:35is number one50:36and we’ll give you some spare change for50:38the other stuff so new zealand50:40is a wonderful precedent along these50:42lines50:43yeah i wonder it really struck me when i50:45was looking at by the way50:46while we were talking about this i’m50:47going to throw the url50:50ethics in action.ieee.org up on the50:53screen50:54uh and of course this will go to audio50:56for pod just read that aloud one more50:58time50:58ethics in action triple e dot org51:02yeah as we’re talking about this um51:04ethically aligned design51:06landmark resource uh on a uh51:09autonomous how do you characterize it51:11it’s autonomous intelligence systems is51:13that right51:14yeah now we say artificial intelligence51:16systems and it’s also the oecd preferred51:18term51:19it just means kind of everything in one51:20so you don’t have to say like51:22this type of learning that type of51:23learning this type of learning it just51:24means all of it51:25artificial intelligence systems but at51:27the time we said autonomous and51:29intelligent systems so we’ve just51:30evolved what we say51:31okay so i did find what was one thing51:34really interesting about that was that51:36aspect that found as you you just talked51:38about the well-being and that that51:39really struck me51:41um as something very encouraging uh and51:44fascinating because it feels51:45very open-ended and it makes sense to me51:48because i’m someone who loves to live in51:50nuance and i think a lot about you know51:52human51:52experience and and the outcomes of of51:55technology51:56but i wondered if that has prompted uh51:59feedback from the practice52:00practitioner community because it is so52:02open-ended and52:04seemingly subjective as a recommendation52:07sure no it’s i think a lot of it is also52:09um52:10i just became fast like if someone’s52:12like hey you’re going to talk about gdp52:13all the time52:14like 10 years ago you’d be like wow that52:15sounds like a boring life52:18i mean it’s no law and order svu but52:21well52:21hello if you need a fake police officer52:24i’m your guy52:27but really it’s like if i just said to52:28you you know kate tell me about your day52:30today what made it worthwhile and we52:32were having a cup of coffee at the end52:33of the day52:34you might be like i had a great show52:36thank you52:37and then like i had time with friends52:38and whatever else52:40if you never reflected on that right you52:43just have a pastiche of a kind of52:44general52:45sense of whatever and then certainly if52:47you were going to build say policy52:49future aspects of your life built on52:51data you’d be like52:52you know what i only know my bank52:54account number and i know how much i pay52:56for rent52:57right and i’m giving a stark example of52:59those are the things that we’ve been53:00trained to think are the only things53:02that are worthwhile measuring53:05ludicrous yeah of course know about your53:07money that’s incredibly important53:09and i understand too like i was in the53:11quantified self movement53:12a lot two years ago with my other book53:14hacking happiness53:15and look this is not about for six53:17months like walking around53:18and being like i’m wearing 94 sensors53:21and kate just used a vowel and i write53:23that down right53:24it’s about measuring things that are53:26important to you for a while53:28and realizing these are my values right53:30now53:31even writing them down and then knowing53:33that you’re living to them right53:34so i bring that up because the53:36well-being thing first of all there’s a53:38lot of ignorance for me there was53:40about what the gdp for instance even is53:43there’s a lot of great ted videos53:45uh ted talk videos and i’m trying to53:47remember the guy that’ll come to me53:48uh all right i’ll tell the story and53:50then i’ll remember who he is53:52but it’s one of the highest rated ted53:54videos and he talks about53:56the gdp there’s this sense that53:59subjective data is kind not worthless54:02but it’s like kate and john both give54:03our views54:04right on netflix eventually that might54:07mean something because we’ve given54:08five-star ratings54:10he pointed out in his talk chris it’ll54:12come to me darn it54:13anyway it’s in there somewhere54:16that the majority of the gdp data is54:19based on subjective data54:21and why that is is that service54:23industries54:24base most of their success criteria on54:27surveys54:28right and service industries make up54:30like 65 percent of the gdp54:32so really what that means is i go to a54:34hotel what does everyone still ask right54:36it’s the modern algorithmic age54:38what have you never not gotten in an54:40email a survey how was your stay at our54:42hotel54:43and you give that rating now in54:45aggregate54:46this is where it sort of magically54:47transforms into54:49objective data that now apparently is54:52worthwhile54:53so all that is to say the well-being54:55indicators there’s a lot of confusion54:57about what they are understandably but54:59then when you also think about a country55:01like bhutan55:02that has measured their environment very55:04specifically with really55:05interesting fascinating in-depth metrics55:08that’s why for instance they were able55:10to eradicate smog55:11above their tree line because they made55:13it a priority to55:15to to get rid of and also reflects their55:17values55:19so there’s so much about we measure55:22that reflects a real core ideology that55:25none of us really even knows55:26how it started or why but it reflects55:29deep systems from55:3170 80 90 years ago that frankly55:34just totally need to change because the55:36status quo it’s not just about55:38dealing with questions of critical55:40questions of systemic bias55:42racial bias or what have you it’s about55:44how are we designing these tools55:46and why would we only want to have them55:48do this one thing versus question55:51and that’s what like we have a standard55:52that came out called 701055:547010 focused on well-being which is55:57mainly about showing look at all these55:59indicators and start asking56:01what would it look like if i built my ai56:03tool with all of these like three or56:05four of these lenses not just this one56:07and it becomes innovation right because56:10the last thing i’ll say in this56:11answer is i rarely hear innovation56:14framed56:15around anything except money right don’t56:18hinder innovation really means don’t56:20mess with money56:21which my answer is why can’t that56:23question be how can we56:25make innovation about how can we make it56:27about the environment56:29that’s beautiful and it’s so it’s so56:30aligned with my own work so i talk about56:32uh56:33the the lenses on meaning and the56:34different the the framework56:37of meaning as all these different kinds56:39of56:40the things that we understand as humans56:42like all the way from the lowest level56:43like semantics and communication56:45through things like relevance and56:47significance and truth and purpose that56:49are kind of56:49mid-grade but but they frame a lot of56:52what we we56:52do and what we think all the way out to56:54these big macro questions of existential56:57and cosmic meaning like what’s it all56:58about and why are we here but they all57:00boil down to57:01what matters and then for me the57:04question of innovation is always a57:06question of what is going to matter57:08so if you use those two lenses you know57:10what matters and what’s going to matter57:12it feels like that’s a57:14very aligned uh way of looking at what57:16you’re talking about57:17as well that you know that that emphasis57:20on57:20uh not measuring everything you don’t57:23have to be57:23sort of the quantified self person57:25that’s got as you say 90 sensors on57:27yourself57:28because not all of that matters and and57:30you don’t have to know57:32you know how many vowels you’re tracking57:34at any given point in time57:35uh that’s not it’s never going to be a57:37meaningful thing it’s not57:39unless there is some some specific57:42meaningful application at some point in57:43your life but57:45uh yeah that’s that’s a that’s a big57:47takeaway i love that and i i’m glad that57:50you’ve put that out there that you and57:51your team57:52have put that out there in such an57:53unambiguous terms for the community to57:55be able to57:57think about well-being in this very57:59dimensional way58:00and and make sure that that’s58:01represented in in the way that they’re58:03building58:05yeah and one one point i’ll make here is58:06that well i don’t we need to take the58:08credit but58:09in the sense of like um joseph stiglitz58:12who ever and i think knows world famous58:14economist58:15uh was 2009 at the time president58:18sarkozy of france58:20got uh58:23all these globally renowned economists58:25together and said look58:26is gdp the ultimate measure of societal58:29success yes or no58:30stop messing around and you can look at58:32the 2009 document58:34where all these different leaders said58:37it is easier to measure well-being58:39than it is to measure the statistical58:41aspects of gdp58:42and it may sound boring and maybe i’m a58:46gdp geek but when you look at statistics58:49right for gdp it’s a backwards measure58:52how did we do last quarter how did we do58:54last year58:56right so you first of all by definition58:58and i’m not trying to put gdp down i’m58:59just putting it down to the side and59:00saying you’re not living in the moment59:02right you’re not asking about value59:05right now why is john happy right now59:07because he’s talking with his friend59:08kate who’s awesome59:10and his is i really feel purpose talking59:12about this work for my trip believe that59:14i love so much59:15right as compared to i just live my life59:18and59:18next you know the end of the month hey59:20what did you do59:21and when you also think about what is a59:24person’s life like as a parent i’m a59:26parent59:26you know what you say to your kid like59:28hey you’re making friends59:31you know you’re doing this i’ve taught59:33you the nature of like whatever oh you59:35found a love you know a partner59:37cool did you get an a in class and how59:40much money do you make at your job59:43right but guess what guess what most of59:46their lives59:47yeah i’m looking for love and this is59:49all important but i can’t say that’s59:50important because that’s59:52that’s frivolous did you make money do59:55you have a good job59:56that’s it that’s because underlying so59:59much60:00of modern society 70 years ago60:03this one thing became the thing60:06that’s why i love ieee by the way too60:08because advancing technology for60:09humanity like i mentioned60:11by definition you can’t just say60:14how do we build stuff for whatever it’s60:15always beautiful and by the way the60:17global aspect of my job60:18i love i’m on the phone granted my sleep60:21schedule gets messed60:22with but i’m on the phone all the time60:24like with india or60:25the philippines and and that’s a real60:28blessing for me because automatically60:30you you just hear right away different60:32people’s values60:34right money’s always important but it’s60:35not the only thing60:37yeah my day started out with a call with60:38india as well and and uh we just joked60:41before we60:42got on the broadcast you and i were60:44joking i’ll share with our audience60:46we’re like we haven’t seen each other60:47since lisbon60:48it’s like oh we should definitely say60:49that on the air because it sounds60:51so bad like oh gosh how have you been60:54since60:55lisbon well we know how you’ve been60:56since lisbon actually60:59it’s called covid but no it is it’s61:02wonderful61:03and i love the fact that you know my61:04work is also global and i61:06appreciate that you appreciate that61:07about your work as well it’s it’s great61:10that that holistic global perspective61:13on on the work i was wondering you know61:16i have i have generally these kind of61:17recurring show questions that i like to61:20to bring in a few and and61:21one of them that i like to ask is you61:23know what are you most optimistic about61:25when it comes to technology like what61:27when you look at the future of61:29human experiences and how technology can61:31impact it what61:32what gives you the most hope61:35uh i know i’m going to sound like a61:36fanboy but it’s not it’s actually true61:38one thing i love about ieee is anyone’s61:41welcome61:42to something and i think about this all61:44the time i’m so blessed in this job61:46but i am not an engineer i am not an61:49ethicist i am not a data scientist61:52like the list of what i am technically61:53not like if you want a phd61:55is pretty extensive um but i’m61:59i’m not just proud i’m genuinely honored62:01and thrilled62:02that because of my skill sets which62:04involve like business development62:06community development i got to come with62:09this idea62:09that was a very early germ of an idea to62:12this amazing organization and say62:14my my perception is it does need to be62:17you you seem like the only organization62:19that could build a global62:20code of ethics because it will work62:23because you’re engineers62:24so it will actually function but the62:27other thing about that cross-pollination62:29and interdisciplinary aspect of our work62:32one thing with ethically aligned design62:33is one of my favorite things62:35is saying to the amazing engineers and62:37data scientists62:38hold on let me get my friends who are62:40mental health specialists62:42and sociologists and anthropologists62:45and you know women and by the way kids62:48and it’s like then the consensus62:50building aspect62:51consensus is by the way very hard it’s62:54very hard62:55and it’s not about getting uniform62:57agreement across everything62:59but ieee especially the standards63:01association what i love is63:03coming to consensus means we’re going to63:04get in a room we’re going to be63:06passionately arguing for a while63:08but we all have this vision of advancing63:10technology for humanity63:11or the stuff and ethically aligned63:12design and we’re going to do it together63:14it’s wonderful and when you think about63:18what we could do in culture uh63:21and whether it’s governments companies63:22or individuals to stand a better chance63:25of bringing about the best futures with63:26tech63:27rather than the worst features obviously63:29you know you could point to and i’ll63:30throw that url back up on the screen63:32here63:33uh ethicsandaction.ieee.org63:36but in addition to that like or or maybe63:39one thought that kind of63:40stands apart from that what do you think63:43it is that we could most63:44emphasize to focus on in culture to to63:47bring that best63:48bring about those best futures and with63:50tech63:51um i’ll go back to the metrics which is63:54my dream63:54on a personal level but it’s reflected63:56in ethically line design63:58is that nothing ever ever ever ever ever64:01is built again and by this i mean64:02designed at the very outset64:04you know someone susan goes i have an64:06idea for a new tech and she says that64:08and then she goes to someone else and64:10immediately not just 70 10 but the64:13mindset64:13of how we’re going to build this knowing64:16that the actual ultimate key performance64:19indicator is64:20the increase the knowable provable64:22increase of long-term human well-being64:25holistic well-being mental physical64:28education access to stuff and that’s on64:30top of maslow they have to have access64:32to water and food and all that64:33so human well-being in uh symbiosis64:37meaning complete connection64:38with environmental flourishing where we64:41cannot think about64:42ai as like i’m just a brain kate’s just64:46a brain64:46copy of those brains and we’re good to64:47go right it ignores64:50so many indigenous traditions so many64:51true and just the reality of64:53the interplay of systems thinking from64:55people like donella meadows and other64:57you know titans and heroes of mine64:58so if every bit of every bit of65:00technology was developed65:02where you knew the key performance65:04indicator that would be blessed from65:06shareholders stakeholders ceo all that65:08value chain was wait a second65:10is that tech how can we point to it65:13increasing human well-being in the65:14environment65:15then that means we wouldn’t be facing65:17mental health crises65:19um you know the environment is today65:21with these amazing tools that we’re65:23building right all the great algorithms65:26ai all the wonderful things happening65:28think of the65:29majesty of what it would mean if around65:32the world65:33we knew that we could point to65:34indicators saying well this thing is65:36going to be built65:37and i know and again look to new zealand65:39they’re doing this it’s so65:41exciting right and by the way they65:43invite their indigenous65:44uh first nations citizens into the work65:47so that’s the other part of it is seeing65:50those who aren’t seen65:51right the marginalized women a lot of65:54times you know and65:54in many instances we cannot build these65:57amazing technologies and say it’s quote65:59you know66:00for all of humanity when we’re not66:01actually listening66:03to all of humanity and especially asking66:05really tough questions66:06who’s been marginalized and why and it’s66:08not about making other people feel bad66:10it’s about saying design won’t be66:12holistic66:13unless we have everyone participating66:15participating in the process66:18yeah and i think another thing about66:19what you were saying in terms of like66:21it’s not just john as a brain and kate66:22is a brain and let’s just replicate that66:25is that it not only does it ignore uh so66:28many of the uh the nuances of66:30of human existence but it ignores that66:34human experience is an embodied66:36experience and that we are sensory66:38beings66:39and that senses are how we make meaning66:42and so we couldn’t possibly have meaning66:44variances if they didn’t66:46have an understanding of our embodied66:49sort of66:49acceptance of those experiences which is66:52why it takes66:52having a diverse and inclusive group to66:56be able to understand66:57how those experience affect us when we67:00when we experience them in an embodied67:01way so that67:02i feel like that’s a really important67:04facet too of what you’re talking about67:08yeah i mean oh sorry i know we’re at67:10time i’ll just say the environment the67:11more i67:12i read indigenous and first nations uh67:15work uh and i hear especially a friend67:17of mine in new zealand i forget which67:19tradition67:20tradition when you speak to someone67:22where the environment is actually more67:24of like a sister or a brother as67:25in the west i was raised to think about67:27my actual nuclear family67:29it becomes a very different conversation67:31about quote protecting the environment67:33like i wouldn’t say to kate like kate67:34are you cool with me threatening the67:35life of your mom67:36on the phone still67:37[Laughter]67:40that’s a given right so this is also67:42being sensitive to the end user values67:44of the people who are using the67:45technology67:46um it’s been really helpful because then67:48it’s like the system of what we’re part67:50of67:50of course involves the environment of67:52course is it’s part of who we are67:54yeah yeah it’s a really important67:57clarification too what is what is the uh68:00the ieee’s68:01roadmap from here and what is your68:03roadmap from from this point forward68:06well ieee is a big organization because68:08there’s multiple parts to it the68:10advancing technology for humanity68:12there’s a huge amount of work on the68:13environment which is astounding and68:15awesome there’s like 40 societies68:17a ton of great work going on i believe68:19work that i helped drive68:21we’re really focusing on aspects of68:22trust and agency68:24ai i find agency fascinating because68:26trust is68:28a lot of times it’s like how do we trust68:30technology where for me the the question68:32about68:32agency means if i make technology that’s68:35safe68:35i have to give it to kate and and give68:38kate the opportunity to really interact68:39with it68:40and then you’ll tell me if you trust not68:42just am i a68:44safe manufacturer but what it does in68:46your life and that agency then means68:48that’s when trust really happens it’s68:50two-sided also i love these non-western68:53questions68:54i’ve been learning a ton from other68:56cultures68:57about what safety and risk and all those69:00things mean69:01but anyway any thank you so much for69:03saying the ethics in action url69:05all of the stuff that i drive is free to69:07join you don’t have to be an ieee member69:09we’re always looking to get people69:11hundreds working groups69:12we have about 13 standards working69:14groups focused on69:16things like transparency children’s data69:19effective computing and we’re always69:21looking to grow those groups and get new69:23brains69:24and and voices involved so we’d love to69:26have people join should people go to69:28just ieee.org to find that or is there69:31a particular area actually ethics and69:34action.ieee.org is the stuff that i help69:36lead69:37and and by the way i’m on twitter anyone69:39who wants to contact me directly i’m69:41happy to69:42to to reach out on twitter too yeah69:43that’s the last question here is how can69:45people find69:46and follow you and your work online and69:48so we know john c69:49havens on twitter right uh any other69:52pertinent urls or handles that people69:55should know69:56well thanks again i’m going to mention69:57it again ethics in action.i triple org69:59is like the big one70:01um and then really if you want to get in70:02touch to get involved with something70:04twitter is usually what i check70:06freakishly often enjoy freakishly often70:09how i would describe my twitter70:11lifestyle too70:13supposed to be honest yeah absolutely70:16well john i can’t tell you70:17what a pleasure it’s been and and i what70:19a fan i am of your work70:21you had a lot of fans who were excited70:23about you being70:24on the show and i can see why of course70:27because70:28you’re brilliant and i love where your70:29heart is in this work70:32so thank you for doing what you’re doing70:34well thank you seriously it was so great70:36i’m going to say this70:37it was awesome to see you in lisbon70:38because i was reminded like oh my gosh70:40it is amazing70:41and i love you know what you’re doing70:42with the show and it’s a real honor to70:44be here so thank you so much70:45thank you thank you john and thanks to70:47all of our listeners and viewers out70:49there70:50see you next time