[Music]02:09all right02:17oh there we go hello humans02:22who have we got in the in the uh live02:26please uh say hi tell me where you’re02:28watching from02:30glad to to see folks turning out i see a02:32few people02:34turning up love to see some some02:36comments from you02:37where are you watching from today and02:39how’s it going there in your02:41in your version of the lockdown or02:43whatever state of covid you’re in02:46uh in your neck of the woods so uh02:50while i wait for some some folks to02:52respond02:54just so that you know in case you are02:56tuning in for the first time02:58this is the tech humanist show and it is03:00a multimedia format program that means03:03we’re doing this as a live stream uh and03:05it will be available03:07across all the different channels that03:08you can watch live streams pretty much03:10and then it’ll stay archived on youtube03:13and then there’ll be an audio podcast03:16available03:17at a certain point so typically i have03:19those available03:22the friday after so we do these thursday03:24afternoon tomorrow03:26last thursday is audio podcast will be03:28available03:29so i look forward to sharing that with03:31you03:34i’m trying to see your comments03:38and for some reason they are not showing03:41up there we are03:44okay tony says hi from germany hi tony03:48menzel03:49nice to see you tuning in uh bill butler03:53says bill from nashville it’s swampy hot03:55here03:57sorry to hear that bill glad you’re here03:59i don’t know why my camera keeps04:01flipping out04:02there we go now we’re getting everything04:03all set up all everything is well04:05all right we got tony we got bill i know04:07there’s a few of you a few more of you04:09on the line04:10so feel free to comment and get your04:13questions ready i’m going to tell you04:14about our guest04:15and that’ll get you ready to to ask the04:17questions that you have to ask04:19so please feel free to subscribe or04:22follow wherever you’re watching and04:23you’ll always have04:24access to the the coming shows oh wait04:26we have one more hi watching from04:28switzerland checking for dorothea04:30yeah you’re gonna love it all right04:32chris buehler thanks for being here04:35all right so today we are talking with04:37dorothea bauer a leading expert and04:40advisor in europe in on ethics04:42responsibility and sustainability04:44across industries such as finance04:46technology and04:47beyond her phd is in ngo business04:50partnerships04:51it’s really interesting and she’s been04:52active in research and projects across04:54sustainable investment04:56corporate social responsibility and04:58increasingly emerging technologies such05:00as ai05:01so she’s been developing an audit system05:03for contact tracing against the05:04background of covid1905:06as a for humanity fellow so we’ll talk a05:08little bit about that too05:10she’s founder and owner of bauer05:11consulting ag among her many05:13distinctions she’s been named as one of05:14the hundred brilliant women05:16in ai ethics so start getting those05:19questions ready05:20for our guest and05:25oh hang on one second here05:30there we go dorteo you are live on the05:33tokyo mini show thank you for being here05:35thanks for having me it’s a pleasure my05:38pleasure05:39uh i’m so glad you’re here i know that05:41we have so much05:42ground to cover because you’re doing so05:44much someone referred to you as a wonder05:46woman05:47on twitter this morning which is kind of05:50totally exaggerated and i think she was05:52more05:52referred to herself she would be the05:54appropriate one to parry the label05:55i think she actually clarified that she05:58definitely was not talking about herself06:01but some of our listeners may not be as06:04familiar with some of the acronyms06:06and and terms that we talked about so i06:07wanted to just orient people in some of06:10the areas of06:11work that you do so corporate social06:13responsibility csr talk us through a06:15little bit about what that entails and06:17and what some of the practices are in06:19that yeah corporate social06:20responsibility06:22is like one of the most used acronyms06:25that actually describes06:26all extra financial obligations and06:30responsibilities of corporations so06:32it’s not just social actually it also06:34covers environmental responsibilities06:36you could also call it06:37corporate sustainability or06:39responsibility there are tons of06:41terms that are used for the same thing06:43but it’s important to know that this06:45is basically what companies mostly take06:48on voluntarily06:49what you know what they commit06:50themselves to but it’s not pure06:51philanthropy06:52so for example they want they might want06:55to give more transparency on their06:56supply chain06:57that is legally mandated or they go07:00beyond the minimum legal standards in07:02some countries where the standards are07:04very low etc07:05so all of these like non-directly07:08financial07:10aspects of corporate activities07:13can be summarized by corporate social07:15responsibility okay07:16that’s really helpful i’m sure that07:18that’ll help our watchers and listeners07:21have07:22useful questions to to ask and then we07:24talked also about esg so environmental07:26social and governance investing so07:28help us understand what that term refers07:31to yeah esg is basically the csr07:34of the financial industry so it’s a term07:37that07:38investors use to talk about07:40non-financial aspects of their07:42investments so when07:44nowadays blackrock says we are promoting07:46esg investments that means they don’t07:49just07:49don’t just judge their investments based07:51on expected return07:52on investment but they also take into07:55account environmental and social and07:57governance factors when they invest so07:59esg08:00is the buzzword among the financial08:01community08:03and uh and csr is like the old term like08:06most of the business ethics aspects of08:09all corporations across08:11industry now i know you’re also doing a08:12lot around ai ethics and tech ethics too08:15are you finding that these areas are08:16starting to intersect more and more08:18they do i think sometimes you know both08:22can learn from each other also08:23especially because08:24you know csr so my background is in08:27business ethics it’s very theoretical08:29but so08:29the whole questions about legitimate08:31business models legitimate ways of08:33making08:34money legitimate ways of distributing08:37profit ethical ways of you know08:41kind of treating your stakeholders or08:43unethical ways08:44all these issues have been thoroughly08:46discussed by the csr community or the08:49in the business ethics context on a more08:51theoretical or more practical level08:53depending on what you look at08:54and so a lot of these questions are kind08:56of history repeating when it comes to08:58the tech sector08:59tech sector has some distinctive you09:02know09:02ethical challenges that have never been09:04seen before such as the09:06you know the speed and the in09:08transparency of09:09machine learning etc so that’s09:12distinctively new09:13but all those things about is this an09:16okay09:16way of doing money is this an okay way09:19of treating our employees our09:21stakeholders09:22and gig workers etc those are questions09:25that have09:26been i mean discussed but of course not09:28resolved09:29by the csr community but at least you09:32know it’s i think these two09:33fields can really benefit from each09:36other09:37is it also the scale and the velocity of09:40ai09:40and tech that changes that conversation09:43yeah and it’s also09:44you know it’s not just a technically a09:46black box i mean machine learning and09:48algorithms are not just09:49really a black box in a technical sense09:51it’s also kind of09:53deterring non-engineers to take a closer09:56look09:56because you feel like deterred by the09:58whole shargo around it09:59which is needed of course it’s a10:00technical vocabulary you cannot expect10:02engineers to talk about you know you10:05know whatever soap bubble stuff10:07just to make it feel tangible or visible10:10for us10:11but still i think it’s a it’s a double10:13black box it’s it’s it’s a it’s a black10:15box in the real technical sense of the10:16world that you don’t know what you know10:18what’s being the input and the output or10:19how the two relate10:21but it’s also a black box like oh10:23there’s not much we can say about that10:25it’s10:25machines processing something whereas10:28other industries it’s more like10:29oh there’s a mining company they have10:31these and these mines10:32with this kind of people working there10:34suffering from these problems and10:36uh causing someone so much emissions is10:38much more tangible in other10:40industries so i think that makes ai a10:42bit uh10:43evasive for us and you know there’s this10:45whole10:46concept of ai for good and tech for good10:48that’s really kind of a hot10:50topic or a trending hashtag at least10:53right10:53uh what do you make of those ideas10:57as it applies to the work you see and do11:00yeah i know11:00that in my bubble i’m still i think i11:03move in a bubble11:04uh online etc there is a lot of cynicism11:07about these terms but i think there is11:09something genuinely11:11good to be gained from you know ai11:14and from tech for good that’s more than11:17just11:17ethics washing my favorite pet peeve11:20and uh and and you know i really think11:23that11:24ai has huge potential to cause good11:27especially11:28when it comes to environmental11:29sustainability so11:31for example you know the whole problem11:34of pattern recognition11:36in machine learning where you feel like11:38when it’s applied to humans11:40it is you know full of biases and it11:42kind of confuses correlation and11:43causation11:44and it is uh violating privacy etc11:48there are a lot of issues that you don’t11:49have when you use the same kind of11:51technology in a natural11:54science context you know where you just11:55observe patterns of of11:57of oceans and and clouds and whatever12:00or when you when you try to control the12:03extinction of species i mean12:05animals don’t have a need for or a right12:08to privacy so12:10you know why not use ai in contexts12:13where12:13it really you know doesn’t violate12:15anyone’s um12:17moral rights i think there are enough of12:19enough use cases and where you at the12:21same time12:22resolve a real problem those two were12:24conditions for me for tech for good12:27yeah that’s a really good distinction12:28and i talked with um yale’s forestry and12:31sustainability program last year and i12:33i felt like that was a lot of the12:34discussion there too is that there’s so12:36much data to be harnessed about12:37naturally occur12:38occurring phenomena and be able to12:40impact human life12:41on the other side of that process as12:44opposed to tracking12:45justified right where the emissions are12:47justified not just for some nonsense12:49uh algorithm whatever predicting12:52something you don’t really want to know12:53and12:53and overriding my rights etc and12:57and so i think there’s really there’s12:58plenty of stuff to do the problem is of13:00course um how to make money of it of13:02course i mean i13:03can’t just talk about yeah i feel good13:05without you know thinking about the13:06monetary aspects13:07well and you’re a uniquely qualified13:09person to talk about that so13:10it it does kind of come full circle13:12right so you want you want to be able to13:14have this13:14csr and estuarization in the corporate13:17space13:18and then the ai for good and tech for13:20good discussion sort of emerges13:22out of wanting that to scale and one of13:24wanting all the13:25proposals to scale and then you have to13:27bring it back around13:28into this holistic csr esg model right13:32so13:32how do you reconcile all of that how do13:34you bring those into13:35a holistic framework that actually makes13:38sense13:39well it’s not about reconciling it’s13:41about being able to13:42to just uh tolerate the tension13:47a just way to put it it’s not always13:50it’s not always win-win and it’s another13:52not13:52triple win as some people would say like13:54you know environment13:56uh society and a business they all win13:59at once14:00often it’s about trade-offs but of14:02course uh14:03you know i think if you can make money14:06with esg14:07and if you can make money with csr14:10that’s totally the achievement that’s14:11great for you14:13do it but please also do it if you earn14:16less money with it14:17and if it does not pay off immediately14:19anymore so14:20uh don’t make your your your ethics14:24dependent on the business case14:26but i mean if you find a business case14:28for ethics go for it yeah there’s14:30nothing bad about making money i’m not14:32talking about maximizing profit and14:33making yourself a billionaire and giving14:34your shareholders14:36i know what kind of dividends and and14:37you know totally losing all kind of uh14:39relation to to to the real problems in14:42the world but14:43you know it’s it’s not bad in itself to14:44make money but so when i i don’t14:46i you know it’s hard some business14:49models are probably14:50inherently more ethical and others are14:52inherently less ethical or totally14:54unethical14:54i mean you can’t bring in my opinion14:59uh well it’s a dangerous field what am i15:01saying here i’m live15:03you know it’s it’s it’s hard to bring15:05ethics to a nuclear arms15:07company it’s hard to bring ethics to15:11certain areas right i think you know you15:13can you can maybe15:14dodge that a little bit if you’d like15:16but15:17i want to give you an out thank you15:21it feels like what you’re really saying15:23is that there are15:24or if i’m interpreting correctly that15:26there are there are some15:28approaches which are closer to solving15:30real human15:31problems right and and they’re closer to15:33the human experience they’re closer to15:35what15:36you know genuine human needs are and15:38then there are other things15:40that go wildly awry or you know15:43a far far afield of that15:46um because you know sorry it’s just15:49gonna say most things are in the middle15:50somehow15:51it seems like right yes they are and15:53then you need to shift you know then you15:55need to15:55need to take some decisions and and you15:58know and15:58and you need to make trade-offs but16:00ideally i’m the one16:02pushing for trade-offs in favor of16:03ethics of course without losing sight of16:06the16:07business reality yeah and so so what i16:10think16:10is in uh ai ethics wait i just lost what16:13i wanted to say that’s why i’m smart16:15okay we’ll come back to it if you like16:18dementia i’ll16:19remember all right uh you know one of16:21the things that struck me16:22as i was uh looking over some notes and16:25and16:25thinking about our conversation was the16:28more i16:29read up and kind of refreshed my16:31thinking on esg and csr and kind of the16:34the evolution of those fields the more16:36it struck me that16:37those fields evolved out of concern for16:41for labor right and for workers16:43collectives and labor power16:45and then of course when you start16:46thinking about you know the emergence of16:48ai16:49and tech driven capacity it’s an16:52entirely different equation so i wonder16:55if16:55if you would be able to to speak to how16:58do you16:59maybe it’s another case of just17:01tolerating the tension as you said17:03earlier but17:04how do you kind of make sense of the esg17:07and csr models and17:09and their concern with labor and and17:11workers17:12when we’re looking at a completely17:14different model of scale and capacity17:18i think it’s uh the the type of human17:21factor that we’re looking at17:23changes and so the difference is if you17:25look at17:26heavily industrialized context like a17:29heavy manufacturing or like textile17:31industry and all those you know tangible17:33goods that are being produced of course17:36the rights we talk about offers like the17:38human rights of labor17:40uh health and safety etc so17:43but i mean trade unions have become have17:45come out of fashion a while ago17:47now what i could observe from also all17:49those sustainability reports17:51a lot of companies don’t really like to17:53talk about trade unions anymore they17:55you know they talk about human rights17:56etc but the unionization is kind of17:59has lost a bit unfortunately has lost a18:00bit of uh momentum18:02so and and so when we switch to ai you18:05think oh you’re in the service industry18:07it’s not labor intensive et cetera but18:10the human factor is still there18:11maybe not mainly as the well certainly18:14not the blue color employee18:16at least not within the owned operations18:18of tech companies18:22and and maybe also not as many white18:24collar employees18:26in relation to their turnover as in18:28other contexts18:29but there are a lot of people linked to18:31the to tech18:32companies or to ai first of all often18:35invisible we have those18:36ghost workers that they’re called you18:38know the whole you know18:40gig economy or like people doing a very18:43uh18:43low paid work of tagging uh pictures uh18:47for for to feed out to train um data18:50sets etc18:51and and so there is a labor issue a18:54classical one18:55for content moderation or the mechanical18:58turks sort of thing yeah18:59yeah right i mean that’s that’s a that’s19:01a really straightforward human rights19:03case there19:04you know they’re just not so visible and19:06you think about the pure service19:07industry it’s only like you know servers19:09and you know19:10one human taking care of 100 servers etc19:13but there are a lot more people19:14linked in the supply chain you could say19:16and also19:17more over affected by the technology you19:20know19:21so in textile i’m not that affected by19:23you know the the19:24the clothes i’m where i’m wearing should19:26not be toxic on my skin19:27and and that’s it you know but so the ai19:30i’m using can violate my19:32privacy it can you know uh the the ai19:35that is used on me it can discriminate19:37me it can19:39make it impossible for me to get a19:40mortgage etc so it’s more the users or19:42like the customers or the users you say19:45that are in the focus but it’s still19:46very much about humans19:48and at the same time yeah even though we19:50think like yeah it’s all like you know19:52just uh electricity etc you know there’s19:54also sustainability like the emission19:56part of ai that19:57i always like to emphasize there’s also20:00an environmental dimension20:01yeah yeah and not to not to mention so i20:03think it’s a really important point20:04about you said the ghost workers and and20:06the many many people who are involved20:08in bringing scale to things that are20:11dependent on you know20:12sort of a gig economy infrastructure but20:14also the communities that are impacted20:16and that feels like it brings it right20:18back around to the sustainability and20:19the environmental discussion20:21right out of out of places where let’s20:23say you know minerals are harvested for20:25chips or things like that so that must20:28be part of the discussion at some level20:30as well i would imagine20:31yeah of course i mean the whole supply20:33chain of the i.t industry is also20:36you know heavily based on minerals and20:38there are actually they’re really20:40interesting um initiatives also by by20:42tech companies or like20:43commodity companies that uh specifically20:46focus on the on the minerals or the20:49metals that are20:50you know in our computers like on on20:52cobalt there is new20:54transparency initiative a fair fair20:56cobalt initiative that i just read about20:58so they are aware of this but if you21:01look21:02at you know you know where is the main21:05focus it’s more on on the output than on21:07the input it’s21:08more like we call it like downstream21:11than21:11upstream but but of course i mean that’s21:14that’s a huge issue like the rare21:16earth discussion i said emissions21:19right that would be emissions as well it21:22would seem like21:22emissions emissions i mean honestly you21:25know21:27it’s you know when i read like21:30how many emissions gpt321:33must have generated you know the21:35training the elect the energy that we21:37used21:37for training gpt3 and i don’t want to21:40downplay gpd3 and i’m fascinating by21:42what it is capable of21:44but i’m not sure yet how long it takes21:47until21:47gpg3 will save any human life21:50right it’s also you know the same about21:52bitcoin and21:53all these you know um like21:57technologies that that that don’t21:59directly contribute22:00to the real economy and and they use up22:03so much22:04energy and even though the tech22:06companies say oh we’re going to be22:07carbon neutral or even carbon negative22:10you know as long as they uh you know22:12sell their cloud services22:14to the fossil industry and that’s22:16basically22:17irrelevant so yeah there’s this22:20hypocrisy and they say we’re going to22:22plant22:22trees the size of i don’t know22:24kazakhstan and uh good luck with that22:26yeah you just made me write a little22:29note to remind myself to look into22:30carbon offsetting this show22:33definitely some emissions okay great22:38well then so so offsetting seems like it22:40must be an enormous part of the22:42discussion22:43in in many parts of the industry so uh22:46corporate partnerships and foundations22:48they must be investing in carbon22:50offsetting and other22:51projects and that feels like it’s really22:53needed that’s a an22:54easy piece in some ways but i would22:57imagine there may also be areas of22:59concern there23:00yeah because i mean offsetting is a23:02really good thing it’s good to know that23:04you know23:05there are ways to kind of uh undo or23:09like23:09reduce i say yeah compensate for the23:11carbon for the emissions you generate23:13and uh but the first question to ask23:16should23:17not be can i offset it or how can i23:19offset it but it should be23:21like is what i’m doing is it even23:23necessary so i mean23:24let’s say my favorite passion is to fly23:28to barcelona every other weekend just23:31for fun23:32for a party so instead of offsetting it23:35maybe i should stop doing it23:37and and you know the same for companies23:39i said you know23:40you know the tech companies saying we’re23:42going to be carbon negative23:44but they make most money from totally23:46unsustainable industries by selling23:48their services to unsustainable23:49industries23:50that’s kind of a yeah a bit of a23:52double-edged sword23:54yeah and uh it’s also controversial you23:56know they23:57always joke about the amount of trees23:59that have been promised to24:00to be planted i mean i can’t imagine you24:04i’m waiting i’m waiting for the day when24:05i look out of my window in the middle of24:07the city and they start planting trees24:10i think like the whole planet must be24:12covered with trees24:14and the the thing is it takes decades24:17until the tree you plant24:19really turns into a carbon sink so24:22all that planting trees um and then also24:25saying like oh we’re going to bring24:27solar24:28cookers to to to people in africa it’s24:31also you know24:32with a latently colonialist attitude so24:34you know24:35we we make it possible for you to cook24:37in a clean way but we dictate it to you24:40and24:40yeah so do you think it’s not that easy24:42do you think the tree planting24:43discourse is really shorthand though24:46it’s like it’s an easy way to convey24:48to or do you think it’s a promise that’s24:50just never going to be delivered on24:51yeah it sounds nice but the result i24:53think there’s some double accounting24:55sometimes24:56surgeries are kind of twice it’s really25:00it’s easy to get the credit for25:02uh for planting a tree but it’s hard to25:04verify the reduction you achieve because25:06it takes such a long time25:08right and and so there are all these25:10issues so25:11i think you know it’s also interesting25:13easyjet for example says25:15oh we’re going to offset uh our25:17emissions and then you see25:19they calculate i think four dollar per25:23image ton of carbon that they emit to25:25compensate25:26okay but microsoft calculates 1525:29per ton that they emit so you can25:31imagine the difference that you can make25:32with four25:33dollars per ton or fifteen dollars per25:36ton that’s huge25:37that’s an enormous difference yeah so25:40i imagine easyjet is generating more25:42than a few tons of25:44cars yeah well recently have they have25:46slowed down a bit25:47yeah right right as we all have you made25:50me very uh25:51wistful when you talked about going to25:52barcelona for a party25:58uh you know i want to switch gears for26:00just a moment and and ask you about the26:01contact tracing project speaking of the26:03impact that you know coveted has had on26:06our lives in terms of26:07you know keeping us from travel and26:08things like that um26:10what what how has that project been to26:13to try to put26:14some uh audit i think you’re you’re26:16working on auditing the process of26:18contact tracing26:19what is it exactly it’s a great26:21initiative it’s by26:23this not-for-profit organization called26:25for humanity that is26:26that is led by ryan carrier a guy from26:30east coast like uh near new york and and26:33he has launched this organization and26:35this whole project and we’re still26:36working on it heavily it’s not you know26:38it’s not done yet so on monday i think26:41we’re going to26:42release 2 000 lines of code so it’s an26:45audit system26:47contact tracing not just the digital one26:49but also the the analog one you know the26:51making phone calls etc and it uh26:54covers basically five silos that we call26:57silos so it covers aspects related to to27:01of course to privacy27:02but also to bias to cyber security27:05and to ethics and so27:09ethics privacy trust buys cyber security27:12so those five styles and27:13some questions are really technical you27:16know27:16how you know how is the data stored and27:18what kind of protocol are you using and27:20you know questions that i don’t really27:22understand because i’m not another tech27:23person an engineer but there’s also a27:26lot of27:27as i said one issue one silo is trust27:30like you know27:31how is it enforced how transparent is it27:34um you know is this a27:37contact tracing system that you’re using27:39is it authorized by27:41public authority is it automatically27:44downloaded so these are all ethically27:46relevant questions you know so27:48uh once we have that ready that um audit27:51system27:51uh we can basically you know implement27:54it with27:55authorities that use contact tracing and27:57they like an audit system they can say27:59oh yeah we27:59we have we can certify that only these28:02these people have access to the data or28:04that the data is only28:05stored in an aggregate manner etc and so28:09working on this has made me aware well28:11we’re even more aware of the complexity28:13of contact tracing and28:15you know i’m so you know in my swiss28:17ivory tower where everything is like28:20um democratic and28:23directly democratic so i was only aware28:26like28:26how many different facets of contact28:28tracing systems28:29there are and what could be what what28:32could what is possible with contact28:34tracing when i28:35joined that group so we are now i don’t28:37know how many people we are working with28:38but we’re still looking for more people28:40and everyone can shine it’s you know28:41it’s open for everyone to join and it’s28:44a really28:44it’s a really great initiative so we’ll28:48try to include that28:48the url yeah in in the show notes is it28:51just for humanity.org or something like28:53that uh yeah i would have to look it up28:54okay all right i’ll look it up don’t be28:56sure so28:58so i would imagine that there’s a29:00there’s some tech challenges in there29:01you talked through some of those and29:02and there’s some human challenges right29:04like i think on some level it feels like29:06whenever this conversation29:08comes up about contact tracing everyone29:10knows that that or29:11i shouldn’t say everyone knows a lot of29:13people understand that that is a key29:15managing the pandemic yet it feels as if29:19there’s an awful lot of suspicion or29:22doubt about how that data is going to be29:25used and how safe it is to participate29:27in these programs so29:28what have you learned about the tech29:30challenges versus the human challenges29:31and29:32how do we overcome them yeah i mean i’ve29:35learned that29:36to relate but i cannot really answer the29:38technical questions you know it’s more29:40about29:40accuracy there so know how much should29:42the distance be between people etcetera29:44for the signal to work29:46and you know what is acceptable false29:49positive rate etc well that’s also an29:50ethical question of course29:52because you don’t want to be notified29:53every other day that you should29:55quarantine yourself29:56right you know unjustifiedly so but all29:59the interoperability what happens you30:01know that30:02what you have in europe now what happens30:04if you go to another country so30:05switzerland is not part of the eu30:08so we’re not part of the30:09interoperability network that the eu has30:11set up because we don’t have30:12disagreement with them30:13so so our app does not work in germany30:16etc so but that’s a price we pay for30:18being stubbornly30:20independent in quotes so30:23and so so the you know all the technical30:25questions and but30:26also the human challenges like you know30:29how you how you ensure trust what makes30:31for a trustworthy system and and one30:33thing is of course technology30:35but what i can see in switzerland and30:37probably also in the us30:38you have these decentralized versions30:41you know where it is clear30:42that it is only stored on decentralized30:45on the gadgets30:46and that you know the authorities don’t30:48have access to30:49it’s without location tracking etc and30:52even though we have the30:53the the most privacy preserving30:56technology that’s possible people still30:58have30:58a heavy distrust and it’s not even you31:01know the distrust that you might expect31:02because we know that31:04the whole decentralized technology31:06depends on31:07google and apple it’s not just a31:08distrust towards31:10uh tech companies but it’s just a31:13general31:13unease and then i sometimes i wonder but31:16these are just my thoughts whether31:17people31:18just don’t want to face the consequences31:21of having the app31:22um on their phones because you know it’s31:26more interesting the question is31:28what happens if you get notified uh is31:31the quarantine forest is someone going31:32to look whether you’re really staying31:34indoors31:35are you going to be compensated for the31:38loss31:38in in your wage while you are at home if31:41you’re a white collar worker you might31:43continue to do your job at home that’s31:44the case in switzerland where you get31:46paid and31:46if you’re a blue collar worker you’re31:48going to to lose your31:50money so it’s also creating very unequal31:53incentives and moral hazards for31:56different kinds of people31:57and i sometimes i think i know you have32:00a degree in german32:01i think it’s a stateful trait to the32:03schools the thing about privacy i’m sure32:05you understand32:07i’m not sure our listeners do but32:10some of them i know we have some german32:12viewers on yeah we have some but i mean32:15for this course it’s like a a this32:18maneuver distraction it’s not really32:20hitting the point you know it’s not32:21really about privacy it’s more about32:23am i willing to you know bear the32:26consequences32:27of of my actions and and not just am i32:30willing i’m not also32:31able to because maybe i’m not able to32:33protect myself from being exposed to the32:35virus because i have to use public32:37transport etc32:38and i have duties and then am i able to32:41am i financially able to lock myself32:43in and maybe not earn money etc so i32:46think the privacy is just the32:47the lowest hanging fruit to focus on32:49yeah but32:51uh there is a lot more behind that it’s32:53really challenging for the solidarity in32:55all our communities32:56i think solidarity challenge yeah that’s32:58a fair it’s such a fair32:59um set of questions to surface and does33:02it also bring you into33:04have you begun to have any discussions33:06uh through for humanity or any of the33:08work that you’re doing33:09around some of the proposed ideas around33:11sort of immunity passports or33:13theoretical ideas about what might33:15happen as a next stage beyond33:17these contact tracing apps yeah i have33:20followed those debates a bit we haven’t33:22really discussed it in context for33:23humanity yet or not33:25as far as i know but it’s just the33:27immune passwords again it’s it’s this um33:30continuation of replication of i mean33:34structural injustice it’s always along33:37the same33:38dividing lines as society kind of33:41yeah and and you know it will those who33:44are more vulnerable and more dependent33:47will be more heavily affected and pay a33:49higher price33:50for not being immune or be forced to33:54expose themselves33:56as soon as they are immune even though33:58we don’t know yet for how long33:59immunity lasts etc so you know if you34:02have34:03plenty of space and money you are better34:06off in times of corona because you can34:07keep a distance34:09from other people and you can you know34:11buy yourself34:12out of the pandemic basically somehow34:16and that’s i think so the same with34:18contact tracing very different34:19implications for different people34:21immunity passports and and there is no34:23quick technological fix and also what i34:25observe you know you can have but the34:27best technology in the world you know34:29the best privacy preserving technology34:31and you can have the most democratic34:33authorities in the world as we have in34:35switzerland if these34:36authorities are not are not you know34:39up to date with technology know-how34:41that’s the case in switzerland where34:42they use fax machines34:43where they prefer fax machines over34:46digital tools34:47right you cannot use that technology in34:50that totally34:51analog context so there needs to be a34:54cultural34:55fit for the technology to your34:59authorities and the people who use the35:01technology35:02it’s like those governments are working35:04with my landlord who insists on me35:06faxing documents35:08i don’t know how to distract i got the35:10cd for an x-ray35:12and what am i doing with the cd sorry35:17tape recorder it’s such a weird time35:20yeah it’s a weird time because not only35:22of the pandemic but35:24you know we’re we’ve been in the midst35:26of this multi-year35:28digital transformation i mean it’s been35:30digital transformation has been a hot35:31topic for so long anyway35:34but but it feels like we have we were35:36kind of in the throes of a big push and35:39now35:39you know it’s a much bigger push but35:42what really strikes me35:44about your perspective and your35:45background is that you’re in this35:48very interesting position to be able to35:51think35:52systemically across a lot of different35:54dimensions35:55and not many people have that that35:58perspective36:00no it’s it’s it’s nice i take it as a36:02compliment it’s sometimes hard to frame36:04so it’s always36:05like great to have a chance to really36:06talk about these issues in depth36:08and how they relate in my opinion36:10because these are you know they’re36:12connected and even contact tracing36:14you know it all you know like it touches36:16on the pandemic touches on whole36:18questions of welfare state and social36:20security etc and36:21and it’s all all kind of connected so36:24yeah i really appreciate that chance36:26yeah you know it’s been a theme of my36:28work for the last couple years that36:29everything is connected and nothing has36:31proven it more36:32than this pandemic but but i i think36:35even looking at36:36your work it’s even more clear like when36:38you talk about things like you know36:40ghost workers and the local economies36:42when you talk about36:43uh you know who’s impacted across36:45different types of earners and36:47and people who are in different sort of36:49class stratifications in society36:52and you have so many different lenses36:54through which to look at this36:56with a lot of credibility so that’s36:58fascinating36:59yeah thanks for that yeah well you know37:02one37:02one thing i want to ask you is a37:04question that i like to ask some guests37:06now and then is when you think about37:07technologies37:08um and we talked about tech for good and37:11ai for good and all this37:12but when you think about the37:13technologies that you see on the horizon37:15that you see being developed and that37:18are emerging37:19which ones of them strike you37:21potentially as37:22as good for humanity as a boost to37:24humanity37:26i’m really excited about uh you know37:29technological developments in healthcare37:30so and also again fascinating from an37:33ethical perspective is that if you you37:35know37:36you talk about precision medicine you37:38get you know the the right37:39treatment based on all your specific37:42characteristics and with the help of you37:44know ai this can be37:46you know patterns can be evaluated37:48better so there it’s like a reverting of37:50the ethical problem it’s like37:52it’s a it’s context where you want to be37:54discriminated37:55please discriminate me i want you to37:57take into account37:58all my characteristics i want you to38:00know how many you know veggie burgers i38:02eat38:03i want you to know how much i sleep38:06whatever i do all my risk factors etc38:09because if this helps getting38:11me to get the right treatment uh you38:13know i’m willing to lay it there so38:16i think you know precision medicine uh38:18is going to be a38:19really great uh area but also in38:21medicine we can38:22read that and i think that’s true i mean38:25that machine learning can help38:26identify candidates for vaccines mass38:29vaccines38:29much faster of course always needs to be38:32safe and reliable38:33and and that’s a problem of the black38:34box and in transparency sometimes38:37but so all of healthcare and as i stated38:40before38:41in sustainability for example i don’t38:43recently it’s a bit quirky but i like38:45that stuff i read about a challenge38:47where38:48um coders were asked to to to develop38:52okay i call it facial recognition for38:54snakes38:55oh yeah not just it’s not just the face38:58of snakes but you know38:59the goal was to develop an app that you39:01know you could take picture39:02when you get bitten by a snake you take39:04a picture and then the snake is39:06automatically identified so when you get39:08to the hospital you can say39:10this type of snake has bitten me because39:12it’s very important to identify the39:14snake corrected to give you the right39:15anti-venom39:17so and this is so fascinating you know39:19why why39:20waste our money and our emissions on39:22facial recognition on people i don’t39:23want to be recognized please39:25but that snake doesn’t care whether it39:27is recognized it has to be recognized39:29even39:30and that’s you know where you can use39:31this machine learning for good so all39:33these there are so many fascinating39:35areas where you don’t run into these39:36ethical problems39:37yeah yeah it also strikes me that you’re39:39talking less about recognition39:41in in a an identity sort of sense as39:44you’re talking about recognition39:45in a pattern recognition sort of sense39:48right so it’s not39:49important that it’s snake jane doe39:52versus snake john what about naming the39:54snake we’re not going39:59but it has no consequences for the snake40:00it has culpability for the snake40:04no that’s a that’s a really interesting40:05premise and also the the precision40:07healthcare40:08seems like such a an exciting idea40:11because it does seem like40:13there’s at least when i think about40:15american healthcare and of course you40:16know we’re one of the most screwed up40:18systems40:19in the world uh in terms of the inequity40:22of it and40:22we have so much richness in the system40:24and it’s so unavailable to so many40:26um but that potential seems like it40:29could start to write some of that40:30potentially right like you could40:32you could be able to integrate uh what40:34you know from one specialist what you40:36know from another specialist and no40:38one ever has time or the capacity to40:40bring to40:42a doctor and say you know here are all40:44the things that are going on with me40:45across40:46this different health system in this40:47different health system because you40:48can’t get doctors to talk to one another40:50no i think that’s you know i always rant40:52about democratizing40:54ai because i i find the misuse of the40:58term democracy because i’m political41:00scientist by training41:02so because it suggests like what is it41:04is it going to be participatory ai41:06or self-legislating ai but i you know41:08what people mean when they talk about41:10democratizing ais41:12meaning that they make it accessible to41:14people41:15and i think in healthcare ai41:18it’s not about democratizing ai it’s41:20about democratizing health care because41:22you know if if you have some reliable41:25programs that can you know41:27do a radiologist work partially and not41:30fully substitute him or her but41:31partially it means that it is much41:34easier available41:35for more people so so it lowers excess41:38barriers if you have this technology at41:40scale and of course41:41again there will be unfairness because41:43some people will be able to still afford41:45a human doctor so41:46people will say oh can you still afford41:48a human doctor so41:50no sorry i have to take the ai of course41:52it will never be entirely fair41:54but i think there it really it is okay41:57to talk about democratization for once i41:59accept it for once42:00okay but you’re being very specific42:03about42:03what it is that’s being democratized42:06yeah yeah42:06it is yeah that’s a really important42:08distinction too and you also touched on42:10something that reminded me of42:12you recently uh tweeted about this42:14notion of participation42:16watching right and and the notion that42:19you can’t have42:20uh participatory ai if what you’re42:23really talking about is42:24you know people that are clicking on42:27recaptcha images that are42:29stop signs and that’s just training ai42:32you know you’re distributing the work42:33across42:34a lot of random people and there and42:37their human experience42:38but it’s not really making the ai any42:41more democratized it’s not making42:43that process any more true participation42:46and you know it’s like this the the42:48ideal that i’m adhering to like the42:50human in the loop42:51i mean these people they are very human42:53but they’re not humans in the loop right42:55you know it’s not like they really have42:57a human42:58impact and they’re degraded to doing43:00work and they’re43:02kept probably separately from each other43:04so they will never unionize and they43:05will never raise against their bosses so43:08i mean it’s it’s like it’s it’s a very43:10dehumanizing43:11way of having humans in the loop yeah43:14it’s like i guess43:15adjacent to the loop or under the loop43:17or yeah43:18something like something like that43:22do you generally think about technology43:25as43:25empowering humanity overcoming it or43:28threatening it or43:29some other relationship to uh between43:32humanity and technology43:34i think it’s all at once well maybe43:37at least of all overcoming i don’t see43:40like the a.i43:41overlord knocking on our door anytime43:43soon43:44i’m not transhumanist i’m i’m a43:46permanently human humanist43:48i just finished reading herrera’s homo43:51deus43:52and it took me it took me a couple of43:54weeks but it takes a while43:57yeah like wow humanist is a is a44:00term he uses critically and then no no44:03i’m i’m proud to be a humanist44:04and uh you know the negative term would44:06be anthropocentrist44:08like putting the human in the center and44:10disregarding all non-human entities44:12but you know i can only think from my44:15own species perspective and i can still44:17care about animals et cetera but i’m44:19humanist i believe that there is44:20something distinct44:21distinctive about humans that we need to44:23keep alive and44:24uh so this is our responsibility that we44:26have as humans44:27and so it’s it’s but it is empowering of44:30course because it you know44:32it connects us it makes like technology44:34it connects all of us it makes44:36information accessible44:37it kind of you know on so many ways44:41you know the democratization aspect44:44is real so it is empowering44:47it is threatening of course because if44:51technology you know the whole fake news44:53and and then the deep fakes etc that’s44:55really threatening44:56although immediately in the context of44:59upcoming elections and even in45:00democratic big45:01countries and uh and so it is45:04threatening in many ways45:06and uh overcoming it is the least i’d45:08say45:09so but it has always been that you know45:12i mean45:13you know nuclear weapons nuclear power45:16has already threatened us so yeah45:18i love what you said about the the sort45:21of being a proud humanist because i feel45:22like45:23it’s it’s funny to me since i am i am45:25vegan i’ve been vegan for 22 years so i45:27am very much concerned with animal45:30welfare45:31i i want there to be uh concern45:34for all living things and you know45:37absolutely45:38but i do agree with you i completely45:40think that there’s something45:41special about humanity and as a human45:44that may be a biased perspective but i45:46think that it makes sense45:48in the context of human creation of45:50technology45:51to protect that which is human uh as we45:55develop technology right45:57well i mean first of all you know uh45:59being a humanist doesn’t mean46:01that you cannot or should not be46:02vegetarian or vegan i mean i’m i’m like46:059546:06vegetarian or 99 percent vegetarian so46:09so one is like your you call it46:12epistemological uh perspective like46:15what can you know i can only know what46:17humans know and what humans feel46:19i cannot certainly know what animals46:22feel i have46:23a lot of indications that they don’t46:24like to suffer they46:26don’t want to be killed and kept in you46:28know in stables et cetera46:30and so that’s why i don’t eat them uh46:32i’ll still eat their46:33cheese etc but um so and and i46:36that’s you know from epistemological46:39restriction that i have as human and the46:40other thing is do i think they have46:42rights and i think they do have rights46:43so in that way i’m not a humanist46:45but um um yeah so so what we need to46:49so i think one of the biggest46:51achievements is that like46:53200 and you know 40 years ago46:56when the enlightenment set in you know46:58that movement that philosophical46:59movement uh47:00in europe emanuel kent et cetera where47:03he said47:04hey people dare to use your own mind47:07it was like a wake-up call because until47:09then we have been called47:10as you know the slaves of god or i mean47:12that’s i’m sorry i don’t want to you47:14know offend anyone but we didn’t really47:16make an effort to to to explore the47:18world because we thought every47:19everything was determined by god so47:21by stepping out of this dependency and47:24using our own brains we47:25liberated ourselves from the shackles of47:28religion or other47:30authorities and so now are we just you47:33know taking it too far have we used our47:35brains so far that we’re eventually47:37trading47:37machines that are smarter than us and47:39they’re kind of imposing their decisions47:41again47:42upon us and not just imposing their47:43decisions upon us but also imposing47:45decisions that are47:48about equally in transparent as god’s47:51decision47:51if you look at certain algorithms what47:54is this like47:55are we inverting are we going back into47:57places of darkness47:59yeah yeah that’s a really interesting48:01way to frame that48:02uh that it takes the um the human agency48:06out of of the framework yeah i think48:08it’s a duty48:09we cannot delegate our responsibility to48:12machines we can use machines to improve48:14our48:14you know um health and our well-being48:17etc to improve the world48:19but we cannot entirely delegate48:22responsibly to machines48:23especially not if we don’t fully48:26understand them48:27and if we cannot revert or intervene at48:30any point in time48:32so when you think about humanity and the48:35human condition48:36and what it means to be human what what48:39do you feel like48:40is the most uniquely human trait or what48:43do you kind of come back to when you48:45think about humanity as the thing that48:47really characterizes48:49human experience or or what it means to48:51be human48:52i know i’m totally out of fashion with48:54that but i’m a48:55i’m a bit of a candidate i think about48:57free will and and responsibility you49:00know49:01the ability to take on responsibility49:04and to kind of decide how we want to act49:07and then49:07be held accountable for how we acted49:09which you know49:10the whole agency thing which is also49:12what sets us apart from49:14animals you know i can’t hold a dog to49:17account when he sits on the couch i mean49:19he wouldn’t understand why49:21so so and and as hans jonas like a49:24german49:25us philosopher said uh but49:30something like uh by having this49:32responsibility we need to keep this49:35responsibility alive and we must never49:37extinguish the human49:38species because extinguishing the human49:41species49:42would mean to extinguish responsibility49:44from this world49:45because when you know when humanity is49:48gone49:48or if we you know eradicate us he wrote49:50that in light of the49:52nuclear threats you know in the 70s etc49:54where suddenly you had the potential to49:56erase all of humanity with you know a49:58few nuclear bombs or like49:59significant parties that that’s not okay50:02we need to uh preserve our species50:04because50:05we are the only ones who are capable of50:08responsibility50:09and and and this gives us the50:11responsibility to keep ourselves50:13alive or like preserve ourselves now i i50:15really like jonas in that regard even50:17though he’s considered very50:19ludite or like anti-tech and50:23yeah that’s okay we’ve had people who50:24describe themselves as tech50:26abolitionists on this show oh50:27okay okay i’m relatively mild yeah50:30you’re being you’re being50:31rude right in line50:35i’m moderate moderate we’ll uh we’ll go50:37with that50:38um when you think about how tech plays50:41into50:42scaling the possible futures for50:44humanity i50:45i think you know the way i think about50:46it and i just want to frame this up is50:48that50:49there are ways that we could build50:51toward the best futures for all of50:53humanity and there are ways that we50:55could build toward the worst futures50:57for all of humanity and of course i feel50:58like you know we’re always doing a51:00little bit of both51:01um and i hope that we’re always trying51:04to aim for51:05the good side but what we have to51:07characterize what it is51:09what that means right what how do we51:11steer toward the best futures with tax51:13so51:14in your mind how do you think or what do51:16you think we can do51:17in culture and in business in51:20organizations to51:22to stand a better chance of bringing51:23about the best futures51:25with tech for humanity i think we have51:28great chance again by connecting the51:30dots so51:31after a long you know debate etc the the51:34united nations have finally established51:36those51:3717 sustainable development goals which51:39is kind of a global consensus and51:41and that’s not just about co2 emissions51:44but51:44that covers a wide range of uh goals51:47that are desirable51:48uh under the headline leave no one51:51behind51:51so democratizing leave no one behind51:54but in a real in the real sense of the51:57word basically51:58and so why not subject52:02ai or technological development to those52:05standards also if we have52:07a globally acknowledged framework of52:09course with flaws and trade-offs etc52:12but instead of reinventing the wheel and52:14saying like you know what kind of future52:16do we want52:17and then what can technology do in that52:20future52:21like ah we have already a vision of the52:23future we want or52:24what we have to avoid and what we want52:26to achieve with these52:28sdgs sustainable development goals why52:30not52:31integrate the whole tech discussion into52:33this framework and maybe add52:35some tech specific challenges that i52:37mentioned not everything fits under52:39these sustainable development goals but52:40that’s what i mean52:41don’t reinvent the wheel i mean tech is52:44just52:45a means to an end and if if the if the52:48end is sustainable development52:49goal sustainable development make tech52:53a means to achieve this end and measure52:55it52:56based on how it contributes to achieving52:59those goals53:01that makes sense and i talk about that53:03myself on a regular basis about using53:05the sdgs53:06as a roadmap for for development and53:09bringing ai53:10and emerging technology discussions in53:12alignment with that road map53:14and what’s interesting to me about that53:16too is that53:18it gives it gives plenty of53:20commercializable opportunities you know53:22you talked earlier about you can’t just53:23you can’t just have this conversation in53:25a vacuum not acknowledging53:27that corporations want to make money and53:29and yes you know there’s no reason why53:31there isn’t an incentive to make money53:33there’s plenty of incentive within53:35those sdgs uh when uh when technology is53:39applied to them or outside of technology53:40applications excellent to make money53:43yes in alignment right now yeah53:46i see synergies but i also see red flags53:49like or53:50i mean but it’s also that sometimes you53:51think like uh technology53:53you know like deep fakes you couldn’t53:55say53:56they violate violate the sustainable53:58development goals so you cannot answer54:00all the the questions about tech with54:03the sustainable development goals i mean54:05the question about deep fakes just it’s54:07another question it’s just a purely54:08ethical question it’s just54:10i say ai for nonsense or a.i for bad or54:13you take for evil however you want to54:15call it and that’s a54:16an entirely separate discussion that we54:18also need to lead but a lot of it can be54:21aligned or like judged based on the54:23contribution of the sustainable54:24development goals54:26i think you just coined the hashtag ai54:28for nonsense54:30that’s the truth what um if if companies54:34if people are watching54:36and they’re representatives of54:37corporations or organizations and they54:39want to54:40take actionable steps to bring their54:42work that are in line54:43you mentioned the sustainable54:45development goals are there other54:47actionable steps or or kind of54:49guidelines that you can recommend54:51for for organizations and individuals to54:54to bring their work in line54:55with with these principles i mean54:57there’s a like54:58overwhelming amount of uh you know55:00volunteer standards55:01industry specific or regional standards55:04etc55:05you know it really depends on you know55:08where your business is located and what55:09you do etc but i think55:11very important is always talking about55:13participation participatory machine55:15learning55:15you know take your stakeholders on board55:17see who is affected by your business55:20and and and and and you know take them55:23on board55:24have a discussion take your critics on55:25board don’t corrupt them55:27take them on board listen to them and55:30and and so those multi-stakeholder55:33approaches i know55:34they have their own risks of uh55:37inequality55:38and and structural injustice etc55:41whether you’re certainly doing better by55:43talking to your stakeholders and by not55:44talking so stakeholder approaches55:47yeah right yeah it’s come up a few times55:49on this show that we’ve talked about55:50you know the development of technologies55:53or of solutions without involving55:54communities that are going to be55:56affected by those solutions55:57is a completely silly and wrong-headed56:00approach56:01but yeah and and you’re right that56:03sometimes involving56:04those communities can actually lead to56:07problematic56:08uh work as well but it’s it’s got to be56:11better56:11in general it’s got to be the better56:13approach so that’s great56:15invite your stakeholders and invite the56:18communities56:19that are affected uh that’s wonderful56:21also uh56:22chris buehler coined the uh hashtag here56:26ai for nonsense invented by dorothea56:29bauer so there you go56:30thanks wow nonsense i mean i feel like56:34that’s almost the twitter character56:35limit right there so56:38just all we can ever tweet is just that56:40hashtag56:43uh where can people find your work if56:45they want to follow along56:47i’m sure that you’ve got a lot of new56:49fans after the show56:50so where can they track you well i’m56:53mostly active on twitter as you know56:55that’s where i kind of spend too much56:57time you could say but i also gain a lot57:00by you know being up up to date all the57:03time with the debates57:04uh twitter linkedin i have a website57:07that’s in urgent need of a57:09revision you can look at it but don’t57:11judge me based on my website57:13please and that’s uh consulting that ch57:16is that right yeah that would be one but57:18don’t57:18don’t repeat it just you know it’s easy57:20to find your social media57:23i need to revise it for the yeah57:26fair enough i always figure it’s the the57:28cobbler’s kids you know that make the57:30the worst shoes or whatever that don’t57:31have shoes that’s the whole thing57:34that’s really undermining no i get it57:37it’s totally where i’m at too57:39dorothy thanks so much for being on the57:41show i know57:42uh there were there were a lot of57:44comments that i didn’t read aloud it was57:46a lot of people just going yay57:48yay they were so excited to have you on57:50so57:51thank you for being here it’s really57:52wonderful conversation i really57:54appreciate what you’re doing out there57:56to to bring together these57:58different types of conversations and58:00these different holistic views and make58:02sure58:02that corporate discussions and58:04organizational discussions are all58:06happening58:07in in alignment with one another so58:08thank you so much for that58:10thanks so much for having me it was58:12really pleasure to talk to you58:13thank you thanks bye-bye bye-bye