welcome Kaitlin

hey everybody00:06hello humans00:10uh hi clark i see you’re already on uh00:12everybody else let me hear from you00:14um you’re out there listening and let me00:16know where you are00:18in the world and where you’re tuned in00:19from i know or maybe even like what00:22channel you’re tuned in from00:23that’s always fun to see i see clark00:25here in from00:26linkedin it shows right in your little00:28icon there so that’s cool00:32we have uh we’re going to be rocking and00:34rolling in just a few minutes00:36if you have been tuned in before you00:39already know this is the tech humanist00:40show of course00:41it is a multimedia format program so00:43we’re doing this live00:45across youtube linkedin twitter facebook00:48and even twitch although nobody watches00:50on twitch00:51it’s just to like check all the boxes uh00:54and then00:55that so it’s we’re talking about how00:57data and technology shape the human00:58experience with a01:00guest each week and then it becomes an01:02audio01:03format so it goes to podcast and it01:06becomes available on01:08ios and google and stitcher and all that01:10good stuff so01:11please subscribe or follow along01:13wherever you’re watching from wherever01:14you’re listening from01:16and you won’t miss any new episodes so01:19uh01:19looks like we are uh live and rolling01:23so i’m gonna go ahead and and bring in01:26our guest01:28we got um i see some some numbers01:30starting to to pick up i want to make01:32sure i don’t01:33run too soon if people are still tuning01:36in but we’ll go ahead01:37all right marco all the platforms01:41yeah sorry twitch twitch you’re just not01:43you’re i mean maybe i’m just not hip01:45enough for twitter that’s more the issue01:47that’s really what’s going on there01:50but we got it out there anyway so you01:52know if you’re a die die-hard twitch01:54user or viewer you’re more than welcome01:56to view the show there01:58all right let’s get to uh to our guest02:01we are talking with caitlin eugelic02:03phillips02:04the author of the future of feeling02:07building empathy in a tech obsessed02:09world02:10she is a journalist and editor whose02:12writing on love finance health and02:14technology has appeared02:15in the establishment vice courts02:18institutional investor magazine02:20law 360 columbia journalism review02:23lithub02:24scientific american new york post vice02:27salon and narratively02:28among others so that’s just a sampling02:31there’s even more just02:32insert name of publication here she has02:35probably02:36published in it caitlyn writes a blog02:38and newsletter about empathy featuring02:40reportage essays and interviews so start02:42getting your questions ready for our02:44guest02:46and caitlyn you are live02:49on the tech humanist show thank you so02:50much for joining us thank you for having02:52me i’m excited02:54yeah me too this seems like it’s been02:56kind of a um02:57an inevitable conversation between us02:59i’ve been looking forward to it very03:00much so03:01i’ll just jump right in and ask you how03:02did you first get on on researching and03:04writing about how tech03:05is changing the future of human empathy03:08well it really came03:09from um just the the concern that about03:12that question03:13you know i um as an old millennial i’m03:163203:17so i kind of grew up online um03:21first with aol instant messenger and03:22live journal and then03:24myspace and i really miss myspace um but03:28you know on and on03:29to where we are now um and a few years03:32ago03:332014 2015 i just was kind of having a03:36lot of really negative experiences03:38um friends and strangers on social media03:41and just kind of03:42trying to think more broadly about like03:44man this is where we’ve gotten just in03:46the past 10 years03:47how are things going to change as03:49technology continues to change i was03:52um some tech finance staff at the time03:55um at institutional investor and i was03:57just realizing you know03:59okay all this investment is happening in04:01the internet of things and04:03in virtual reality and all these other04:05new04:06emerging technologies and i was just04:09worried04:09you know what is going to happen to our04:11ability to communicate with one another04:13and um04:14it was really a situation where i tried04:16to find a book that focused on04:18solutions or you know the concerns about04:21that and i04:22didn’t find one at the time so i i had04:24to write it04:25that’s your job you identify a gap now04:28you got to write it04:28[Laughter]04:30well it and it’s it’s such an important04:32book it’s like covers such an04:33interesting topic and we’ll we’ll dig in04:35in a lot of different ways um but i04:37actually want to do a little quick04:38side note and just ask you know how tech04:40affects uh04:42human life and human uh04:45just experience in general uh this this04:48pandemic has certainly changed04:50human life and human experience and tech04:52has been a part of it so i’m curious04:53what your life04:54during the pandemic has has looked like04:56have you taken up any new04:57hobbies you know developing new skills04:59sort of picked up any new wide-ranging05:01research projects that you’ll eventually05:02publish05:04well i don’t i haven’t been that05:06productive but i05:07i will say that i you know the book came05:10out in february05:11like a month before everyone started05:13going into lockdown and i definitely05:15did not imagine that some of the kind of05:17dystopian seeming05:19um situations described in the book05:22would05:22become reality so quickly um and kind of05:25do this big social experiment right away05:27on05:27you know what does it mean to be plugged05:29in constantly all the time and05:32have to communicate that way um i have05:35been05:36trying to actually not spend as much05:38time05:39with technology because you know all of05:42my work day is on05:43on the computer um except that i have05:45taken up05:46crossing on the nintendo switch animal05:48crossing everybody’s crazy about animal05:50crossing05:51it’s so it’s perfect like i’m not a big05:53gamer but so it’s perfect for me because05:55it’s05:56just mindless tasks cute and you know05:59that’s you know i have started06:01um doing some research for a potential06:04new06:05project but that’s actually about06:06something totally different06:08um people keep asking me you know oh you06:10should write a follow-up to your book06:12about06:12and i’m like i don’t think i need to06:14write a book i think everybody knows06:16what’s happening now06:17you know like well and also your book06:19just came out06:21i know that’s that’s inevitable though i06:22mean everybody who writes a book knows06:24that06:24you know as soon as the book is handed06:26over and done06:28you’re on to the next idea like you06:29already are thinking about it06:32i don’t think people realize that how06:34how long that06:35process takes so maybe in 202306:39we’ll see something new will it be about06:42animal crossing do you think06:44probably not unfortunately i’ll keep06:46that for myself06:48well i loved i loved the book um i loved06:51a lot that happened in it what you06:53covered and i loved the people that you06:55introduced us to there was one in06:57particular dylan06:58maron or marone i don’t know how you07:00pronounce his07:01last name but um i wasn’t aware of his07:04work but07:05but what you described about07:07conversations with people who hate me07:08and unboxing every single word and07:11sitting in bathrooms with trans people07:13they’re all brilliant concepts i didn’t07:15end up watching a few episodes of the07:18every single word because they’re only07:19like 11 seconds long you know which07:21just for the audience in case you07:22haven’t run across these if you look07:24uh go to youtube and look up dylan07:27m-a-r-r-o-n07:28every single word and it’s what he’s07:30done is07:31splice together or just edit down07:34feature films07:35to just those lines that were spoken by07:38actors of color07:39and it’s sobering and i mean i’m sure07:42that many uh um07:44people of color were already aware of07:46this phenomenon and white people may07:47have been aware of it too but it’s such07:49a striking07:50striking illustration so i think the one07:53i looked at was moonrise kingdom and it07:55was 11 seconds long07:57so you know it really gets the point07:59across but anyway he’s just a brilliant08:02uh creator and i loved how you you um08:05wove in what he’s doing with uh how08:09especially with conversations with08:10people who hate me with uh with how08:12people08:12are interacting online so have you found08:14any other cool people since you’ve08:16published and that you you are like oh i08:17wish i could have included them08:19i’m so glad you asked that question08:21because yes and i think that happens so08:23often but08:23then authors don’t really get to say08:25that but first dylan is great i got to08:28meet him in person08:29and his podcast i think it’s still08:32ongoing is08:33really an exercise in empathy i highly08:36recommend listening to it08:37um but to answer your question so i08:39recently interviewed dr matthew08:41at the university of northern colorado08:43and he does a lot of research08:44on um gaming um in education08:48so specifically for social emotional08:50learning for younger kids and the use of08:52games in schools08:54and he and i had a conversation about08:56like ed08:57and virtual schooling but he just had so09:00many09:01fascinating things to say about how kids09:03learn09:04social emotional skills through09:05technology and09:07we talked a little bit about vr and09:09afterwards i was like well09:10either you should have written my book09:12or i wish i had talked to you09:15four years ago yeah that hit on at least09:17three or four ethics right09:18yeah and then i also um09:22the organization color of change i i09:24didn’t come across them until09:25uh relatively recently but it’s um it’s09:28an online civil rights organization09:30and they deal with a lot of these kinds09:32of things um09:34from like the policy arena um of you09:37know09:38not just empathy but civil rights on the09:40internet um and it would have been great09:42to include them09:42and honestly you09:46i came across your work a little bit too09:47late as well and you would have been a09:49great person to include09:50well we’re connected now and we’re doing09:52yeah yeah that’s wonderful09:54now those are and those are brilliant09:55examples too um although09:57um at least on my own the audio cut out09:59when you gave the name of the first10:01researcher can you just say his name his10:02or her name again10:04yeah it’s dr matthew farber he’s at the10:06um10:07university of northern colorado great10:09yeah i’m sure that there were uh10:12listeners who were like oh i didn’t10:13catch that name uh you know what what i10:15think was so interesting for me10:17about your book is it’s10:20empathy is this concept that i think10:22people talk about a lot10:24and then they do it in this very10:26abstract broad10:28you know un intellectually undisciplined10:31way10:32but what you’ve done with the book is10:35really10:36unpack it and and go into different10:39aspects of10:40it with intellectual rigor and so even10:42at one point10:43uh you quoted an essayist named leslie10:46jameson10:47who was writing about medical empathy10:49and she wrote what i think may have been10:50the most beautiful thing i’ve ever10:52read about empathy and it was this10:53empathy isn’t just listening it’s asking10:55the questions whose answers need to be10:57listed10:57empathy requires inquiry as much as10:59imagination11:01empathy requires knowing you know11:02nothing and11:04empathy means acknowledging a horizon of11:06context that extends perpetually beyond11:09what you can see and so i to me that was11:12just like it seems like she’s really11:13isolated11:14these elements that make empathy such a11:16special concept like11:18it’s imaginative it’s active it’s11:20curious and it’s dimensional11:22so do you find that you11:25collect definitions of empathy as part11:27of what of what you’re doing here11:30do you have a faith that definitely11:33wasn’t11:34something i expected but that has11:35definitely happened um11:37and yeah you thank you for reading that11:40bit because that’s from empathy exams11:42it’s our collection of essays and it11:44gives me chills11:45um because that was actually the book11:47that i picked up thinking i might find11:49what i was looking for and it was11:50something totally different but11:52so so beautifully written and i think11:54one of the most important11:55parts is when she says the perpetual i11:58don’t remember the exact phrasing but11:59that12:00your inability sort of knowing what you12:03don’t know12:04and you may not ever know but12:08it’s kind of like what’s in that gap12:10there that you are still making an12:12effort12:12to um show emotion and show that you12:16care12:16and i think that’s a really important12:19piece that often gets missed when12:20empathy becomes a buzzword especially in12:23the tech community and in the business12:24community especially in business where12:26you have12:27all of the you know empathy12:31the empathy index and all of these you12:32know it’s just used as12:35to actually just mean oh you know we12:37kind of care about our employees12:38or you know we um have a great hr12:42department um but in terms of a favorite12:46definition i liked um12:50thinking and this is actually from i12:52think a buddhist12:53some buddhist writing i can’t remember12:55exactly where it came from but12:57um that sympathy is feeling for someone13:00and empathy is feeling with someone13:02it’s a simple you know and further to13:05say13:05even just making the effort to feel with13:08someone13:09acknowledging that you might not13:11literally know what it’s like to13:12experience what they’re experiencing i13:14think that’s kind of like13:16an active form of empathy yeah it’s a13:19that’s a really13:20a great distillation phrase because13:23i think that’s what a lot of it comes13:24down to is you can work around the13:26nuance and the abstraction and i love13:28nuance and abstraction i’ll work around13:30nuance and abstraction all day13:32but when you’re actually trying to13:34deliver13:35something that’s applicable for people13:37that people can actually13:38take and understand in in real useful13:42ways13:42it it requires that level of13:44intellectual rigor and13:45i find this too a lot of my work centers13:48around meaning13:49and meaning is a similarly like a13:51concept that people13:53talk about in very abstract terms and so13:56a lot of the work i’ve done over the13:57last few decades is to develop14:00like concepts and clear clear constructs14:03that people can apply14:04and how how they can break down what14:06we’re really talking about when we talk14:08about meaning and specifically14:09meaningful experiences so did you14:11was that part of in any way what drew14:12you to the topic that it lacked that14:14intellectual rigor and you mentioned14:16going to to the14:17one book and being disappointed and and14:19kind of feeling like now i need to14:20create this14:22yeah i think that might have been part14:23of it i mean i think what i14:25at the beginning thought was missing was14:27a future looking14:28um piece of intellectualism i guess that14:34that specifically focused on that tech14:36and human14:37interconnection um but as i went on with14:40my reporting i really started to think14:42more about14:43the danger of having a word that can14:46kind of be used14:48in different ways i know that a lot of14:51the things that i wrote about and i14:52tried to be14:53[Music]14:55clear that there were pros and cons and14:56that there were criticisms of different14:58things especially like when it comes to15:00virtual reality experiences that are15:03meant to build empathy15:04it can be it’s so easy to say okay this15:08is an empathy building experience15:10put on the headset pretend to be someone15:12else just end it15:13there and now this person walks away15:16with this idea that they know what it’s15:17like to be15:19to have a disability or to live in a15:21different15:22um skin color and i think that’s15:26that’s kind of why i was looking15:30to really lay out you know talking about15:32when i’m talking about empathy15:33so that it’s clear that i don’t15:36subscribe to those15:37things yeah that was a really uh15:40compelling section of the book when you15:42wrote about virtual reality augmented15:45reality mixed reality like15:46all of the the uh kinds of um15:50mixed reality options and what was15:53happening15:54with different experiments that people15:56were trying15:57you know there’s this concept that15:58virtual reality is the the empathy16:00machine as chris milk called it right16:01and16:02right and then i think you know there’s16:04there’s a lot of um16:05sort of default acceptance of that and i16:08love how well you unpacked it so16:11walk us through some of what you found16:13when you started to16:14you know examine what was happening in16:16some of the research that was actually16:18out there16:19um well one interesting thing is that16:21there’s not a ton16:23like a lot of what i wrote about is so16:26ongoing so it was kind of difficult to16:28try and you know16:30i couldn’t really prove much um but i16:33could talk about my experiences and a16:35lot of other people’s and a little bit16:36of research16:38the most eye-opening experience and16:40interview was with dr courtney cogburn16:42um and she i believe is at columbia16:46and she helped create this experience16:48called 1000 cut journey16:50and it’s an embodied virtual experience16:53so you put on a headset and also16:55hold these controllers and you move16:57around16:58and you kind of go through different17:00stages of life17:01of this young black man when he’s a kid17:03when he’s17:04a little bit older when he’s an adult um17:06and it’s17:07it’s um it’s animated and you’re kind of17:11embodied so you can sort of look down17:13and you know your17:14your arms are the color of his arms and17:16you you’re being spoken17:18to as if you’re him and um what i wrote17:21about17:22like i went into that experience excited17:25but also skeptical17:26for the reasons i just explained and17:29when i came out of it i really felt like17:31it didn’t i felt like more than anything17:34it highlighted to me just how little17:36i actually know about what it’s like to17:39be17:40this particular type of other person so17:42it wasn’t that17:43oh now i could just put this in my you17:46know17:47white ally backpack and say that i you17:49know had this experience but that17:51it it emphasized to me how different my17:53experience was17:54which i think triggered maybe a more17:57useful kind of empathy that was like17:59okay let me18:00learn a little more um18:03or or kind of keep going but i think18:06some research that i read also18:08emphasized that18:10that’s not going to be everyone’s18:11experience in part because the18:14experience and sort of18:17behaviors and personality that you have18:19going18:20into these experiences makes a huge has18:23a huge impact on18:24how you feel going out so like any other18:27tool and i say this over and over in the18:29book like these things could be used18:31to help us build empathy but also to18:33potentially be manipulative18:35or you know cause other problems right i18:38mean that’s18:39one of the recurring themes in my work18:41is that there’s a lot of good18:43to be harnessed here and there’s also a18:46lot of bad and destructive power and so18:47i think we have to be very eyes wide18:49open about both of those things about18:52recognizing18:52what the harms are and what could18:54possibly go wrong in order to18:56build the best futures and and create18:58the best possible outcomes19:00with tech and i think kind of in general19:02if anything19:03right yeah but i thought it was very19:05interesting that19:06your example of um the one scenario that19:09seemed like it did19:11uh offer some dimensional19:14empathy or or some re-contextualizing of19:17empathy was19:18kathy hackl who’s a friend of mine and19:21and i’m she may be watching the show19:24so kathy had had talked about losing19:27her feeling of empathy from having been19:29subjected to19:30horrendous video footage at cnn i think19:34it was19:34and and then having that sort of19:37reactivated by a virtual reality19:40experience or a 36019:42360 degree sort of video experience is19:44that right yeah19:45yeah i think she she told me she felt19:47kind of desensitized19:48totally makes sense because if your job19:50is to watch19:52sort of screen horrific images to see19:55what’s acceptable to put19:57on tv um how do you how do you do that20:00for more than a few minutes without20:02turning some20:04you know something off um but yeah she20:06said she used the metaphor of like a20:08switch flipping when she20:10um i guess she she had moved on from20:12that position and then20:13experienced this 360 video uh i think it20:16was one about20:17solitary confinement and having20:21i don’t know it just kind of was like oh20:25okay like that that muscle is still20:27there and actually that’s how i like to20:29think about empathy is that it’s a kind20:31of a muscle that if we20:32if we let it atrophy20:36which tech can unfortunately help us do20:39it becomes more of an issue but if we20:41practice it more regularly20:44we can you know have better20:47communication20:48and relationships yeah and i think20:49that’s a really20:51important concept and an important20:53discussion i’d like to20:55just set that aside for just a moment20:56because i think i definitely want to get20:58there and talk about21:00how can people develop better empathy21:02and use those skills and all of that but21:04i wanted to stay just for a second with21:05this mixed reality discussion because21:07you also touched on a point just a21:08moment ago21:09about how some of these experiences um21:12like the the one cut journey where you21:15are inhabiting21:17this fictitious black young man21:20character21:21and i think you you made a really21:24interesting point and you had other21:25experts who were21:26you quoted as making the point that21:29this is a really kind of tenuous uh21:32process like you’re you’re experimenting21:34in ways or or these sex21:36these experiments are being done in ways21:39that21:41you know they that you hope is gonna21:42create more empathy21:44but there is this risk of number one21:48of exposing something someone to an21:50experience that they then think they21:52understand fully and they can be sort of21:54dismissive of21:55now and that of course is a huge risk21:58but also the other thing that was21:59pointed out22:00i think i have it in my notes here uh22:03kang uh wrote in this in slang that the22:05the very concept of empathy creation22:07through vr22:08is an othering process that right that’s22:11that was such a brilliant observation so22:13yeah so it felt like you you really uh22:15got into some some great critique of of22:18that22:19that notion of vr as an empathy machine22:22and what did you feel like you walked22:23away with is sort of the22:24the take away the summary and the22:26recommendation for people22:28yeah it was definitely a journey while22:31reporting the book because i22:33did i did start with this idea that i’m22:36looking for solutions i’m looking for22:38positive22:39future looking things and then having to22:42realize as i came across these different22:45other perspectives22:46that you know not that i thought22:48everything was going to be22:50puppies and roses but that you know22:52there are real22:53important significant um caveats and22:56really i just kind of came away with22:58like more of an ambivalence about23:01you know what what is possible and at23:04least currently23:05um and23:09i guess i the final chapter of the book23:12ended up23:13ends up being a little bit of a soapbox23:14which anyone who reads it we’ll see23:16about why i think tech companies need to23:19take all these things into more23:21consideration but23:22um i just think that i still think that23:25exposing yourself to as many other23:27perspectives as possible is always a23:29good thing whoever you are23:30um but that piece again that we talked23:33about at the beginning that part of23:34empathy is knowing what you don’t23:36know and i think right now in in the23:38world and politics and23:40culture and science we’re all trying to23:42get comfortable with cognitive23:44dissonance and with23:46not knowing things and and with having23:48conversations about things that we don’t23:50have the answers about and i think23:52social media in particular really23:54encourages you to just23:56be concrete and to23:59you know say this is what i believe and24:01stand by it24:02in a debate even if really you know24:05you’re more ambivalent or you know and i24:07think24:08getting more comfortable with not24:10knowing um24:11is really at the core of of all of this24:13and i and i think that24:14um that that othering piece is something24:18i think about a lot and i worry about a24:19lot and i don’t know exactly how24:22to remedy and maybe we don’t but i’m24:25glad to be24:26thinking about that and being able to24:28say you know i don’t know24:30and and let me try to imagine more what24:32that feels like24:33yeah and it seems like an important24:35caveat or caution to be able to24:37offer to anyone who’s trying to create24:39virtual experiences with the aim24:41of increasing an empathetic response in24:45people that that there are those24:47considerations24:48too that there need to be sort of that24:50holistic way of thinking about it that24:52this could have the opposite effect of24:54what you’re intending24:55and it could also create a sense of of24:59outsidership in the people that you’re25:00trying to build allyship for25:03and you know one way to to you know25:06address that is just to include25:08different kinds of people25:09you know i mean that’s kind of part of25:11the soapbox i ended up on at the end of25:13the book is like25:14more women more people of color people25:15with disabilities people25:18um who you know are25:21are descendants of native americans or25:24um just people who aren’t just all the25:28same kind of silicon valley guy25:29that and i say guy for a reason that25:32you know not to say that25:36every problem we’re currently having25:38with you know25:39social media for example can be traced25:41exactly to identity issues but25:44hello if you don’t involve people25:47and the at the beginning of the process25:49it should not be surprising when25:52these things come up years later or25:54weeks later25:55that oh i didn’t think about that i mean25:57that’s not an excuse anymore25:58in 2020 yeah no it’s such it’s such a26:02brilliant point i actually want to pivot26:04there to uh talking about26:05the social media interactions in general26:07but just this little26:08side note from one of our viewers26:10christopher dan’s26:11told us that it was an excellent topic26:13and also was curious about the chemical26:14compound on your necklace is there26:16relevance oh26:17um this is serotonin or at least that’s26:20how it was advertised26:23um i’m a i’m an anxious gal and26:26when i have to do it um an interview i26:29like to have my my extra serotonin armor26:32oh i love that so much what a what a26:34great reveal thank you26:36christopher for asking that question uh26:39christopher had also commented26:40um when we were talking about kathy26:43hackl and26:44and her uh story no one should have to26:46shoulder the ugliness of an entire26:48species and26:49so true thank you for sharing that so26:52uh yeah and uh sorry and christopher26:55just follows up and says thought so you26:56rock26:57[Laughter]26:59but let’s go back to so online27:01interactions are kind of a funny topic27:04because i think it’s27:05kind of funny that you and i met27:07originally through twitter in fact i27:09think almost everyone i’ve had as guests27:11on this show i’ve met27:12originally through twitter so you know27:14there is this possibility of having27:16real connection and making a really27:19meaningful27:20relationships with people but there’s27:21certainly knowing that twitter and other27:23social platforms are27:24hotbeds of what we might call antisocial27:26activity as well27:28so you really delved into this in in a27:31lot of ways it felt like27:33you know you’re you’re talking about uh27:36all of the well the one topic was um27:40dylan’s show conversations with people27:42who hate me and how he was able to27:44confront people who had been you know27:46toxic commenters and trolls with him27:49that seemed like it made an impression27:51on you in in the way you wrote about it27:54i just was baffled by the level of27:58empathy27:58that dylan was able to have for these28:01people and i don’t even know if that’s28:03what he would have called it28:04you know at the beginning but but28:06listening to that show28:08you know it’s so easy to stop seeing28:10people as28:11people i mean there’s even some research28:13i think i cite in the book about how28:16when when people disagree with us we28:18tend to see them as less28:19human not just online but in general and28:23if i saw someone saying nasty things to28:26me swearing at me calling me names28:28my gut instinct is not and actually this28:30is changing a little bit because i think28:32about this so much but my gut instinct28:34normally would not be28:35you know oh what’s this person going28:37through like what’s their life like why28:39is this what they feel like they need to28:40be doing um it would be28:42you know things i’m not gonna say out28:45loud right now28:46um but his his ability to28:50first of all convince people to have28:53these28:54offline conversations and record them28:56but then to just like quietly sit and28:58just listen to them talk and29:00um you know i think it doesn’t always29:02work out exactly how you would hope but29:04in a lot of cases these people29:06end up admitting oh i forgot you were a29:09human29:10like i didn’t think you would read it or29:12this is how i29:14relieve stress because my life is29:16difficult and i don’t feel like i have29:17other ways of relieving stress and29:19you know i try to make the point in the29:22book too that29:23um empathizing with someone isn’t29:24endorsing them and i think that’s29:26actually29:26might be the name of dylan’s new book29:28that he’s writing or has written29:29oh no empathy is not endorsement um but29:33that you know it takes29:36effort and it takes working that muscle29:39to say29:40i can empathize with the fact that this29:42person29:43is stressed they’ve experienced a lot of29:45hardship this is how they take it out29:48on people and without thinking that’s29:50okay29:51you know like it’s really about boundary29:54setting i think29:55and about um29:58moving away from the way that social30:01media makes conversations into games30:03so he yeah i just think that his work30:06has really kind of like given you a30:08great example of what it actually could30:10look like30:11if we had more empathy in conversations30:13about really difficult30:14things yeah and especially so you know30:17you talked about30:18and it’s an obvious place to go in30:20politics and disagreement and certainly30:22we’re going through30:24in the u.s you know this big30:25presidential election cycle30:27uh feels like we always are i know it30:30does it doesn’t ever stop anymore30:32from the moment there’s an election it’s30:34like the beginning of the next campaign30:37and i feel that even if even for viewers30:39who aren’t in the us30:41you must feel subjected to this too it30:43feels like it completely overruns30:45international news coverage30:47so i think one of the things that’s um30:51that’s interesting about that to me is30:53that there is this30:54duality um that i’ve written before30:58about how uh where we live online and31:02and you know we’ve we’re increasingly31:04our digital selves our aspirational31:06selves31:06and that because they contain data31:09representations of31:10the things we love and the and and like31:13and admire and the31:14the date of relationships to the people31:16we love and like and admire and so in31:18one sense31:19it’s like we’re wearing our hearts on31:21our sleeves more but on of course we’re31:23simultaneously more vulnerable to31:25as bill vincent says in comments this31:27may have been discussed but31:29unfortunately too many online want their31:32anonymity to be31:33bad or to to act badly and31:36what i think so it’s this simultaneous31:39vulnerability to this proliferation of31:41anonymous trolls and bots and harassment31:43and other bad behavior31:45so what’s the approach there do we31:48how do how do we best you know use that31:51the empathy that we we want to have31:53that’s a31:54human centric skill and navigate this31:57complex dualistic31:59world what what’s our best bet there oh32:02man32:02i wish i knew what the best but i mean32:04honestly my mind actually32:06first this doesn’t really answer the32:08question but my mind first goes to32:11having better um32:14tech like including32:17more things about communicating with32:19people via social media in32:21social emotional learning for kids so32:25and just focusing more on empathy32:29on that muscle for young people um32:32but that aside i think that32:36for me so instagram is my32:40like horrible boogeyman like that’s32:42where i see this happen the most is that32:44duality and i love the way you put that32:46because that really is where we are32:47is that you both are trying to be your32:51aspirational self32:52on instagram you know you’re you’re32:54posting the highlights or32:56you’re posting that you’re having a bad32:57day but in a way that you32:59think will get the most attention um but33:02then at the same time33:04you will see you know all these33:07anonymous users who make accounts33:09troll people um i’m currently fascinated33:12and horrified by this trend of33:14um mom influencers influencers who33:18who are really into the q anon33:21stuff and are talking like they’re using33:24their platforms which are branded they33:26have these branded33:27partnerships to talk about all of these33:29things and33:31um but anyway that that part of33:34instagram also exists where33:35a lot of anonymous arguments and33:38trolling happening within there33:40i don’t like i don’t i don’t know that33:43they’re33:43i think the problem is that we’re all33:46being we’re all asked33:47and at this point it just seems natural33:49to all go into the same place33:51and talk about the same things in the33:53same way33:54but we actually all have very different33:56needs and33:58i wrote about this a little bit in an34:00article about34:03the mental health culture on places like34:06instagram and pinterest where you have34:08these pretty34:10images that have nice sayings and34:13sort of the commodification of like34:15anxiety and depression and34:17it’s cool to be not okay but like34:20then you’re comparing your not okayness34:24to other people’s34:26um and that that connects to this34:29because i think34:31being more in touch with what our34:33boundaries actually34:34are and what we’re actually comfortable34:38and capable of talking about and how34:40i think that actually is a place to34:42start for empathy for others because34:44a lot of times when i’ve found myself in34:47these kind of34:49quagmire conversations which i don’t do34:51so much anymore but definitely have in34:53the past34:54um i realized like it was about that i34:56was anxious about something or i was34:58angry34:59i’m really being triggered by what this35:01person is saying that’s about me35:04when when i mean that’s a pretty common35:06thing35:07in psychology and just in general that35:10when someone is trolling you35:11or being a bully it’s usually about them35:14and i think if we get better at35:16sort of empathizing with ourselves or35:18just setting better boundaries we’re35:20going to be35:20less we’re going to35:24wade into these situations less i mean35:26that’s a big ask i know for35:29millennials gen z gen x and anyone35:32trying to survive right now on the35:34internet35:34um but you gave some very helpful35:38you know useful guidelines so i want to35:39talk about one of the studies that you35:41did write about35:42that is talking about moderating social35:45spaces and comment sections and news and35:47so on35:48but the guidelines that that the study35:51present35:52actually seem like they’re a pretty35:54interesting uh sort of framework for35:56us all to to think about how we approach35:59interactions online so i’m sure you know36:02the36:03the study i’m referencing where there’s36:05this the staging36:07or sorry the three the three basic36:09conversational rhetorical moves36:12um so i i have them here in my notes so36:14you don’t have to36:15reference it it was staging evoking and36:17inviting can36:18can you do you remember enough to you36:20know yeah talk through those36:22for us so that was fascinating to me and36:24i can’t remember but i think that was36:26a google api thing where they were kind36:29of keeping track of what was36:31happening in these comment threads um36:33and36:34so right they’re those three different36:36basic rhetorical moves in a conversation36:39and what what i found when i tested it36:42because you could36:43put chunks of text into um36:46this little bot and it would it would36:48kind of show you all the different36:49rhetorical moves that were happening36:51i had had i don’t even remember what the36:53conversation was about but kind of an36:55argument36:55with a group of people and i put a part36:58of our conversation into this spot37:00and it we were it showed that we just37:03all kept37:04staging we were all in the state it just37:06never really went past staging it just37:08kept being like37:09this is my argument well this is my37:10argument okay but this was my art you37:12know just37:13cyclical staging is is you’re just37:16saying hey look37:17this is this is the conversation i’m37:19trying to have right right37:20setting up your view setting up your ex37:23expectation or your37:25point and to see that like37:29in a graph you know was like oh okay37:32it’s like a little bit shameful that wow37:35i you know37:36that felt so urgent and necessary for me37:38to do that and i’m sure37:40that other people felt the same way but37:41we were not having a conversation37:43that was not productive and an exchange37:47right so those later two stages seem37:49like they’re37:50key to to having that more of an37:52exchange right so the evoking37:53so pointing out relationships between37:56so kind of if you if you um38:00and unfortunately people kind of do38:02weaponize this on facebook where it’s38:03really easy to tag people and twitter38:05but calling out someone’s name and like38:08specifically addressing them or asking38:10them a question38:11um that’s not a yes or no question and38:14that’s not a leading question38:16or identifying common ground um i think38:19that’s kind of more evoking and then38:20what was the third one third one38:22inviting so directly soliciting38:24participation by asking a question or38:26requesting a comment okay right so yeah38:28evoking38:29i think is more common ground piece and38:32um inviting is direct questions but38:36yeah i think in an ideal world if we38:39could all learn to have better38:40conversations like that but i just think38:42the way38:42that these platforms built it just is38:45not38:46it’s not intuitive to talk that way it’s38:48so gamified38:49so how many notifications can we get how38:52many38:53you know how long can we make this go on38:55or how how can i win38:56um this conversation but but going38:59forward39:00um yeah i try to i try not to stage39:03as much yeah that’s a it’s a really39:06great reminder so39:07so as a quick reminder for the listeners39:10it was staging39:11evoking and inviting and we all spend39:13way too much time39:14in that staging saying this is how i39:16want to have this conversation this is39:17my argument39:18but if we move toward you know spending39:20more time39:21in the evoking the relationship between39:24the participants and the inviting sort39:26of39:26in asking for feedback and asking for39:28participation39:29that could be more helpful and healthy39:31and i think what that highlights too39:33is that it’s really hard to have like an39:37argument with someone or a debate39:38or a disagreement with someone you don’t39:41trust39:42and who doesn’t trust you and so i think39:44that’s the main reason and a lot of39:45other people have written about this but39:47i think that’s the main reason a lot of39:48conversations39:49online don’t go well because you have no39:52reason to think that person39:54you know to give them the benefit of the39:56doubt you have you don’t know what you39:58have in common39:59you don’t know um anything about their40:02experience and so it’s really40:04better obviously to have these kind of40:06conversations with40:07people that you do know but we’re in40:09this weird40:10backwards situation where a lot of us40:12are afraid to talk to our family and40:14friends about40:14difficult things but it’s really easy to40:17fight with someone on instagram40:19you know about the same thing yeah so we40:22have a question here from andy pauline40:24and i think you just answered my40:25question but i’m going to throw it up on40:26the broadcast anyway so he says40:28the performative aspect of social media40:30definitely leads to some toxic40:32situations either performative trolling40:34or40:35performative fake lifestyle but the flip40:38side of the promise of social media or40:39the internet40:40is that you can find people like you40:42with your niche interests etc which is40:44also a comfort40:45so what’s your view on this and it does40:47seem like you know you sort of spoke to40:48that but anything40:49to add there yeah i want to say that40:52like you said earlier40:53there are so many opportunities for40:55connection and i40:57like have made so many real friends and41:00learned so many fascinating things and i41:02do love the ability to connect41:04with people who have similar interests41:06but maybe have them in a slightly41:08different way41:08or you know they’re a very different41:10person but we connect on this one thing41:13um but one thing i’ve noticed is that41:17the longer so groups are ways to kind of41:21focus on that part of media41:23but there have been several big facebook41:25groups that i’ve been41:26a part of that the bigger they get and41:27the longer they go on41:29the more they move away from the thing41:32that we all have in common41:34and become these just as bad as the rest41:37of social media41:38so i think yeah when did this knitting41:41group become this41:42fascist group all of a sudden right41:45but that actually also brings up so so41:47the influencer thing i was talking about41:49there’s a lot of people who create41:51communities and then they41:55you know can can make them something41:57else all of a sudden just41:58and it’s just about making money or42:01followers42:02which then makes you money and but the42:04people who are following don’t know that42:05they think it’s42:06real to a certain extent because we’re42:08human and you know we believe what we42:10see42:11um but i think that groups42:14i still have faith in groups i still42:16think that we42:18um there’s got to be some way that we42:20can we can42:21have maybe a new platform or change one42:23of these platforms to where42:26you know there can be smaller groups42:28with maybe moderating that is more42:30humanist human focused empathy focused42:34um that you know makes them usable42:37honestly reddit is a better me these42:40days than42:41any other platform and i think part of42:42that is because they’ve really taken a42:44hard line42:46recently i know it took a lot to get42:48there but they’ve taken a hard line42:49recently42:50on the really bad stuff and just said we42:53don’t care42:53it’s just not going to be here anymore42:55and it’s in in their42:57moderation teams on the different um43:00subreddits you know really stick to43:03their guns and put a lot of effort into43:05it and i think that’s really what it43:06takes to43:07um you know to to43:10to focus on that community building part43:13and not get bogged down and43:14the rest of it yeah i like that43:16statement that i still have faith in43:18groups that’s a43:19it’s a good takeaway i also have a a43:22question here from christopher dance43:23saying i found success in providing43:26a reflection of what is being43:27communicated with the person they say43:29they want to be43:30did you come across anything in your43:32research regarding this approach and it43:33seems like you did43:34actually uh talk about that a little bit43:37do you have a43:38so is that like is that sort of like the43:40idea of43:42if someone disagrees with you you kind43:43of restate43:45what you think they’re saying to make43:47sure you’re on the same page43:49yeah you can christopher are welcome to43:50um clarify43:52yourself but it seems to me that it’s43:54partly that and partly43:55you know kind of trying to see the the43:58person43:58who’s who’s communicating which i think44:00you you wrote well about44:02you know one of the things seemed to be44:04you know getting offline44:06as soon as possible right well i think i44:09think that44:11it so depends but44:14if you’ve had if you’ve had a lot of44:16internet conversations44:18you can probably tell at this point like44:20when44:21you’re talking to someone who wants to44:23have a conversation and when you’re44:24talking to someone who just wants to get44:25a rise out of you44:26and i think that if you’re able to44:28identify when44:29there’s a potential productive44:32conversation that could be productive44:33for you and or the other person um44:37trying to take it to dm or you know if44:41you feel safe doing that44:42um if it’s someone that you know and you44:45maintain that relationship44:46trying to have the conversation just in44:49a less44:51just there’s just something about the44:52fact that so many people are like44:54watching44:55quote-unquote that makes like facebook44:58twitter instagram feels44:59it’s so much more high-stakes and it’s45:01so much harder to access empathy45:04when you are in like fight-or-flight45:06mode so removing that piece45:08um unfortunately a lot of times people45:10gonna say they’re just gonna call you45:12names and say45:14you know i’m not or just like i have a45:15cousin who i’ve tried that with and he45:17just doesn’t talk to me anymore so like45:19yeah i mean i think christopher says i45:21go to the person’s character45:23nobody wants to be associated with bad45:24behavior or character flaws and i think45:26you know to the point45:27where you’re actually interacting with a45:29person and not a bot and you know not45:30somebody who45:32has somehow been lured into the45:34anonymity of troll behavior45:36you know then then you may have some45:38success with that what is your thinking45:40there45:40yeah but that makes sense to me my only45:44concern is that people gets get very45:47and and this isn’t just this isn’t a45:49critique this is how our brains work45:51if you feel like someone is judging your45:53your45:54morals or your identity that’s what45:57heightens that fight-or-flight response46:00and46:00raises your blood pressure and makes you46:02less reasonable and yeah46:04so if there’s a way of engaging someone46:07on that level without like46:09accusing them of things um but again it46:13depends on the person46:14and that’s where i go back to you have46:16to know46:17yourself and what you’re comfortable46:19with and what your boundaries are and46:21remember that46:22not everyone has the same boundaries i46:24think if more people were able to46:26come at social media with that we would46:28have less of46:30the issue that we have but again it’s a46:32tall a tall order46:34it’s really hard and so the follow-up46:35another question what are your thoughts46:37on cancel culture and purity tests and46:39it does seem like we46:40you know we sort of danced around that a46:42little bit or touched on it a little bit46:44but it’s in your book you talk about uh46:46and it was again46:47um uh dylan i think was talking about46:50this right the idea i46:52have the quote here it can feel weird to46:54be empathizing with someone you46:55profoundly disagree with46:57especially in an age when people say46:59you’re just as bad as them if you47:00empathize with them47:02i thought that was a really profound47:04observation on his part47:05and we do have that problem where you47:07know we’re trying to47:08you know on one hand i think that um47:12we imagine that if we did the right47:13things or said the right things that we47:14could reach across and influence people47:16who don’t agree with us and yet on the47:18other hand47:19we do kind of have this sort of purity47:22standard and a desire not to be seen47:24to be weak or to be giving ground to47:27people who disagree47:28and so you know i i wonder if we have47:31any kind of47:32tools coming out of what you know what47:34you’ve learned and what you’ve seen in47:35the research that47:36that give us you know kind of the47:39necessary steps to be able to47:41communicate with people and engage47:44engage at the level we’re comfortable47:45with and in a way that’s going to be as47:47productive as we can make it and47:48and also disengage when we need to47:52this is a really great question i think47:54that right now47:55most of the47:59um solutions around this are more48:02band-aid48:02things like twitter making it easier for48:05you to control who replies to you48:07or um for a long time there have been48:09things where if you’re getting like a48:10ton of responses there are bots that can48:13just48:13make them all go away um but i actually48:16think48:18i think that there’s a lot going on here48:19at the same time i think48:21in general i don’t like the phrase48:24cancel culture because i think it’s kind48:26of been used to48:28to lump a bunch of different things48:30together and say that48:31they suck um which i don’t think is fair48:34um i and i think you’re right that again48:36we have a duality where we’re48:40social media in addition to helping48:42people connect with one another has48:43given48:43a lot of people a platform who would not48:45other platform so48:47a lot of people of color a lot of women48:49younger people48:50people with disabilities all kinds of48:52people who we normally wouldn’t48:54um you know survivors of sexual assault48:56just people who can48:58take this platform and they’re on the49:00same level as like a new york times49:02journalist and49:03say things and i think that’s really49:05important and that’s part of what’s led49:06to a lot of the reckoning we’ve had49:08where people have gotten49:09unquote canceled um but i think as you49:12mentioned49:14there is also a concern where it becomes49:17a performative thing where people say oh49:19who do we hate today how can i torture49:22them um49:23and that is i think the piece that49:29again like it’s it’s such a personal49:31thing it’s such a like49:33tell everyone like can you examine why49:35you feel the need to do this but49:37barring that i think that some of the49:40little tools that the platforms are49:42creating49:42that are kind of band-aids are helpful49:45um i don’t really know49:48like i think the only way you stop that49:49is by removing49:51the reward for doing it right so that’s49:54why i think49:55you know in some like instagram you can49:59there are some there was a test where50:01you could um50:02[Music]50:04delete or um not allow comments i think50:07you can50:07you can do that you can say no comments50:09but another thing is50:10these these moderation tools that are50:13being created and they’re a little50:14controversial because50:16you know it’s a as i talk about in the50:18book and i’ve seen you talk about too i50:20think50:21you know ai knows what we teach it and50:24so if we teach it50:25bias it learns bias but there are some50:27ai tools50:28um including the one that we were50:30talking about that that recognizes the50:32different50:33um rhetorical tools um or moves50:37that are being created to50:40monitor conference and kind of nudge you50:43and say like are you sure you want to do50:45this so i know nextdoor has this50:47twitter i think started rolling it out a50:50little bit50:50but it’s i mean these are private50:53companies who50:55don’t really have that much at stake50:57with this and they’re not going to50:59so people you know i saw when it got51:00rolled out a little bit on twitter51:02people were getting things that were51:04like are you sure you want to say this51:05and they just screenshot that and tweet51:07it and are like51:09lol twitter is asking yeah i’m gonna51:11never tweet yeah51:12i’m gonna say it twice now i’m gonna say51:14it 15 times so51:16i don’t know yeah you know you’re making51:19a really good point uh51:20in what you’re presenting that that i51:23think51:23needs to be spelled out even more which51:25is it’s important that we figure51:27between mere differences of opinion51:30that can actually make us better people51:33by understanding each other’s51:34perspective and make us more51:36well-rounded51:37and better able to appreciate different51:39life experiences51:40and what we each bring to the51:42interactions that we have51:44and that’s assuming good faith though51:45that’s assuming that people are coming51:47to interact with each other and meet51:49uncommon51:50with the intention of understanding one51:53another and that of course51:54is not it’s an idealist uh situation51:57that doesn’t happen51:58all that often because we have that army52:01of trolls and bots52:02and bad actors who are acting52:04anonymously and it’s really hard52:05sometimes to ambiguate between those two52:07or distinguish between them52:09so that’s a level of sophistication52:10that’s kind of on us52:13as as users of these platforms because52:15the platforms52:16haven’t done a sophisticated enough job52:19exactly52:20disambiguating those accounts and i52:22don’t know if they can i mean if we’ve52:24been52:24especially as women if we’ve been now52:26conditioned then anytime52:28you know we put something out on the52:30internet it’s likely a man is gonna say52:33to us i mean now you’re on alert for52:35that right and if you’ve been trolled a52:37lot you’re on alert for that and52:39how do you we can’t just tell people52:41who’ve been52:42you know significantly harmed in some52:44cases like having their houses swatted52:46having to move just for tweeting um52:49that oh you should just try to you know52:52assume good faith in every52:53and so we kind of but i think that’s a52:56good point that there there is a piece52:58of this that we that they’re they’re53:00in there is a personal responsibility53:04piece of this because the tech just53:06doesn’t do that and i don’t know if we53:08want it to yeah i’m not sure we wanted53:10to i think that is a level of53:11sophistication that53:12we ought to equip ourselves with you53:14know more and more53:16is the ability to recognize good faith53:18from bad faith53:19you know to the extent that we can and53:20and to the extent that it53:22that it’s a dichotomy such as that and53:25the ability to say53:28do i feel capable of reading 10 00053:31other people’s thoughts today53:33healthily and if not can i convince53:35myself that i don’t need53:37to do that because i think we’ve all53:38just convinced ourselves that53:40you have to check twitter 15 times you53:43have to scroll on instagram for 1553:45minutes and it’s like53:47i mean you don’t have to like if you’re53:50blowing my mind here53:52hey i mean i i’m talking about myself53:55like i have a struggle i have the53:57time limit thing i very often will say54:00ignore54:01you know and keep going so yeah but i54:03think we54:04if we think of it i think just thinking54:06about that more54:07yeah is a step in the right direction54:09sure so i think with our last few54:12minutes here it would be helpful to54:13circle around to that54:14that topic of how do we increase our54:16empathy because you did actually have54:18some studies and some54:19uh examples that you cited that can54:22actually help us you know i feel like54:23this is a topic that’s evergreen when i54:26speak at companies on digital54:28transformation and when i talk54:29to corporate leaders uh and design teams54:32and so on54:33so often one of the questions that comes54:34back is we understand it’s important to54:37empathize with people54:38but what if you just aren’t very good at54:41it like how do we actually54:43develop that muscle as you mentioned54:45earlier and and i think54:47too as a team how do people build54:50empathy as a team54:52um so so do you have some specific54:55uh guidelines or suggestions that came54:57from the research54:59um one thing that has actually been55:01researched that has nothing to do with55:03technology actually is just reading55:04fiction55:05this has been shown especially in kids55:07that you know55:09i mean if you think about it it makes55:10sense you’re literally putting yourself55:12in the shoes of a character55:13that’s life is probably really different55:15from yours and learning how to process55:17the emotions of someone who isn’t you55:20and learning to do counterfactual55:22thinking which is something i learned55:24from the amazing jane mcgonagall who i’m55:26sure you know um where you’re kind of55:28imagining55:30something that’s never happened but is55:32possible and like55:33how your body and brain might react to55:36that55:37um that is huge i i just realized it’s55:39amazing55:40that that’s a that’s a thing that just55:42reading literary fiction55:44yeah can actually increase your empathy55:46and it doesn’t take that much effort and55:47it’s fun55:48right absolutely but as a team thing i55:51think is a really interesting55:52point because especially you know55:56this summer with there being you know so55:59much unrest related to the death of56:01george floyd and56:02black lives matter and police brutality56:03there’s this rush to56:05um like remember diversity and inclusion56:08initiatives let’s56:10let’s do those again and and i think you56:12can’t56:13there’s a lot of pros and cons to those56:16things that i won’t go into and i’m not56:18an expert on but56:19i think trying to have a56:22meeting or a or a workshop56:26about building empathy just kind of out56:28of the blue i don’t think is gonna56:30be effective i think if people don’t56:32trust each other like we mentioned56:34before people don’t feel safe if they56:36don’t feel like they know56:36each other um it’s not gonna be56:39effective56:40and i think a lot of times when56:42businesses are talking about empathy56:44they’re talking how can we have more56:47empathy for our customers56:49and like there are frankly just56:52things that don’t make business sense56:54that make empathy sense56:55you know um so i don’t know that’s56:59that’s57:00really hard but i think the57:04just basic things like exposing yourself57:06to more ideas and57:08and people that are different from you57:10um following57:12people on social media who are different57:13from you not to hate them and not to57:16you know make yourself angry but to just57:18kind of absorb and not57:20respond like just remembering you don’t57:22always have to respond57:23you can take a breath um a lot of this57:27is kind of like cognitive behavioral57:28therapy stuff57:30um and celeste hedley um she just hasn’t57:33has a new book out but she had a book57:35out a few years ago57:36called we need to talk and i mentioned57:38that in the book and57:39there’s amazing tips in there for just57:42like conversational57:43um tools or moves that that really work57:48to show empathy um but57:51yeah but that the question about you57:53know as a group building empathy as a57:55group that’s something i’ll have to57:56think about more because that’s really57:57interesting57:58great i i hope you do and i hope you’re57:59able to publish some some work on it58:01because i think it is a needed area i58:02mean obviously58:03you alluded earlier to um58:06the notion that technology shouldn’t be58:09built and tools shouldn’t be built58:11for a population that don’t include that58:13population so certainly that’s one of58:15the answers58:16is this is why we need diversity and58:19inclusion58:20is because we need to be able to address58:23holistically and meaningfully like what58:25the lived experiences of a diverse group58:27of people are58:29yeah i mean maybe it is that i’m i’m58:31sitting here trying to think about like58:33something really58:34intellectually rigorous but maybe the58:36answer is literally just like oh58:37if if if everyone in your development58:41suite looks the same like that might be58:43part of that might be a place to start58:45it’s certainly a good place to start58:46you know one of the other little tidbits58:48that i thought was so interesting58:51um was that you had a study that you58:53cited58:54that said that we actually empathize58:57better to things that we hear58:59as opposed to what we read that’s so59:02fascinating this is part of why i am a59:04huge proponent of podcasts and it’s why59:06i talked about dylan marin’s podcast so59:08much59:09um and there’s a few other podcasts i59:11listen to where people59:13like if i was reading what this person59:16was saying59:17i might be like ugh you know59:20roll my eyes i i’m not interested or not59:22finish it but59:23it’s so it’s such a passive way to59:25consume things59:27but you can there’s no way to59:30immediately59:31have a knee-jerk response so i found59:34myself listening to like hour and a half59:35long interviews with people i59:38whose beliefs i kind of despise but i59:42want to understand and way that doesn’t59:45like raise my blood pressure or make me59:47feel like i need to respond in the same59:49way that social media59:50does um and yeah there was research that59:53showed that people who59:55um people who only could hear each other59:59and couldn’t also see or scored higher60:02on empathy in conversations with one60:05another so60:06interesting yeah i mean we definitely60:08need more research in60:09that area um but yeah that’s60:12so i’m a big podcast person i love it i60:14love that that answer and60:16so one last quick thought before we wrap60:18up and get you know60:19the information on where people can find60:20you in your work uh i noticed you say60:23on twitter that you’re pregnant is that60:25right yes congratulations that’s amazing60:28uh have you given any thought yet to60:31what you’re going to be doing as your60:33child grows as far as tech exposure and60:36and limitation and things like that i60:39it is so crazy i’m i’m not due until60:43january and it’s amazing the number of60:44things i already need to60:46apparently have figured out um but i’ve60:49thought about this a little bit i am60:50reading a bit about60:52um some of the new research on and how60:55people are really more concerned the60:58experts are now saying parents61:00should be more concerned with what kids61:02are doing61:03on screens than how much time they spend61:05doing it um61:06which i find really interesting and so i61:09guess61:10my thought is that i’m not gonna61:14i’m not a um61:17like cut xyz out of your life kind of61:20person i find that doesn’t61:21work for me and for a lot of people so61:24you know i’m not gonna give my61:26one-year-old an ipad probably but61:28i i think being involved um61:32in that exposure is really something i’m61:36gonna try to do61:36i i loved this thing that i read61:38recently um from a researcher whose name61:41escapes me at the moment61:42who said that we basically need to have61:44new dinner table conversations with our61:46kids61:47where instead of saying you know like or61:49in addition to saying what did you do at61:51school today61:52um or you know what did you learn today61:55but61:55specifically what did you learn on the61:57internet today or like61:59what what’s like a funny thing you saw62:01on the internet today62:02making that kind of the new dinner table62:04conversation so you’re involved62:06um and then you’re also acknowledging62:09that62:09it’s not always a waste of time like62:12kids are62:12looking for support on the internet62:14they’re learning things62:16they’re being super creative and um62:19i yeah so i so i like the direction that62:21that’s going i try not to worry about it62:23too much until it comes up but it’s good62:25they may even someday connect with a62:27really brilliant author and have them on62:28their live show62:30i mean it’s possible if possible62:33so caitlyn thank you so much for being62:35here with us today how can people find62:37you62:37and your work what’s the best way to62:39connect with you online so i am on62:41twitter62:42um despite everything i just said i am62:45on twitter62:45at caitlin hugolick so it’s62:51k-a-i-t-l-i-n-u-g-o-l-i-k62:52um and i i also have a website um62:56you can actually go to62:57thefutureoffeeling.com which is the name62:59of my book63:00or caitlin.com and you can bear um63:03i have a newsletter there that you can63:04sign up for that has been kind of on63:06hiatus during quarantine but hopefully63:09uh we’ll get back up and running soon63:11sadly not the cake newsletter though63:13no i started a cake newsletter at the63:15beginning of quarantine and it was63:16fun but then it just became too much63:18work um63:20but yeah if you want to read other63:22things i’ve written it’s at my website63:23and there’s a link to63:25to buy the book there as well if you’re63:26interested all right and christopher dan63:28says thanks so much caitlyn i appreciate63:30your perspective this was enlightening63:32so thank you thank you uh thanks caitlin63:35i’m gonna63:36go ahead and sign off with you and um i63:39so much appreciate you being here63:40thank you thank you all right everyone63:44wasn’t that wonderful63:45it was it’s such a fantastic subject and63:48i i guess i feel like63:49again we talk so much about empathy and63:51we so rarely63:52have really good tools to talk about it63:54with so i hope this was helpful to you i63:56hope you learned63:57some things that you can share and i63:59hope you’ll go and buy caitlyn’s book64:02so please do that and please subscribe64:05and follow everywhere64:06share with friends say the word and64:08we’re going to come back next week64:10with another great guest i look forward64:12to seeing you all then64:13thank you for being here