Today on Based Camp, Malcolm and Simone dive into the growing sovereign citizen movement, its pseudolegal rituals, straw man theories, and common law courts. They examine a viral traffic stop involving self-proclaimed Cherokee marshals, the rise of Moorish sovereign groups, and why search interest is climbing despite mainstream assumptions that the phenomenon peaked in the 1990s.
The discussion covers personal encounters with adherents, historical parallels in backwoods American culture, declining trust in institutions, and the mix of high-agency thinking with mystical legal claims. They also review products, websites, and real-world incidents tied to the movement.
Expect a clear-eyed look at how these ideas persist and adapt amid eroding confidence in official systems.
Show Notes
The Video
In the video: Police Impersonator Claims to be a Tribal Marshal, Doesn’t End Well!:
(Note, the channel that posted it posts general videos of people impersonating officers of various types—ICE, FBI, etc.)
The gist of what happens:
* A Georgia sheriff’s deputy stopped a vehicle for a broken headlight and a nonstandard “tribal marshal” plate.
* The driver and passenger claim they are sovereign Cherokee tribal marshals with authority nationwide, diplomatic immunity, and no need for state-issued licenses.
* The men present self-issued IDs rather than driver’s licenses and cite an unsigned document allegedly submitted to Georgia’s governor as proof of their legal status.
* The deputy notes that it is neither signed nor valid law.
* Records show the driver has a suspended Pennsylvania license, despite repeatedly insisting he has never held one
* deputies also identify inconsistencies in the driver’s name, supposed military history, vehicle registration, and claimed destination.
* The driver and his companion say they are conducting a confidential law-enforcement investigation, but refuse to explain it and cannot provide a verifiable agency, supervisor, jurisdiction, or legitimate credentials.
* After the deputy establishes that they are presenting themselves as peace officers while operating without valid credentials, he arrests the driver for driving on a suspended license and impersonating an officer, and arrests the passenger for impersonating an officer.
* A search of the car turns up documents that, according to the video, suggest their “investigation” may have involved pressuring someone to clean up their property rather than legitimate police work.
Follow-up on these dudes
* The video says both men later fought the case for roughly four years, then stopped responding and absconded.
* The matter is reportedly on the “dead docket,” with charges still pending and no convictions.
* According to the video, the actual Cherokee Nation and its legitimate marshal service were not connected to these self-issued documents.
Sovereign Citizens 101
It’s probably worth brushing up on them because interest is increasing over time:
They’re a loose, loosely connected movement of people who share a set of pseudolegal beliefs, namely that:
* The current government is illegitimate
* Most statutes do not apply to them unless they consent
* They can “opt out” of the legal system through filings, wording, and ritual.
Estimates put U.S. adherents in the hundreds of thousands.
Similar ideas appear as “freemen on the land” in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the UK.
Core claims
* The government was secretly replaced.
* They typically say the original constitutional / “common law” republic was swapped for an illegitimate “corporate,” admiralty, or commercial system.
* Dates they cite vary: the 14th Amendment (1868), the Civil War, or abandonment of the gold standard in 1933.
* Under the old system they would be free “sovereigns”; under the new one they are treated as subjects or collateral.
* Two kinds of citizenship.
* A common reading of the 14th Amendment is that it created a second-class “federal citizen” distinct from an original “state citizen” or natural-born sovereign.
* They think that accepting a Social Security number, driver’s license, ZIP code, or other government paper is treated as a contract that pulls you into the federal/corporate jurisdiction.
* The “strawman.”
* They claim that every person is said to have two identities: the living “flesh-and-blood” human and a separate legal fiction (the strawman) created at birth.
* The all-caps name on a birth certificate or Social Security card (`JOHN SMITH` vs. John Smith) is taken as proof of the corporate shell.
* Tickets, taxes, and court papers addressed to the all-caps name are said to apply only to the strawman.
* Redemption and secret Treasury accounts.
* They believe that after 1933, the government pledged citizens as collateral for national debt and opened a secret account (often claimed at $600,000 to millions) tied to each birth certificate.
* Sovereign citizens run “redemption” schemes in an attempt to tap that account to pay debts or issue homemade financial instruments.
* Courts treat these as frivolous and often as fraud.
* Consent and jurisdiction.
* They treat statutes as contracts.
* According to them, if you do not consent, do not “join” the proceeding, or use the right phrases (“I do not consent,” “am I being detained?”, “I am a living man/woman”), they believe police and courts lack authority.
* Many also claim the county sheriff is the highest lawful official and that state/federal officers are illegitimate.
Many also make homemade plates and IDs, refuse to get licenses or pay taxes, make tons of court filings (which the receiving end of this refers to as “paper terrorism”), and filming traffic stops while reciting scripts.
Origins and variants
The modern U.S. strain grew out of 1970s Posse Comitatus (William Potter Gale), tax-protest arguments, and older common-law court ideas.
Early circles included Christian Identity and antisemitic conspiracy themes later waves added more racial diversity, including Moorish sovereigns who mix the same legal theories with Moorish Science Temple language.
* The Christian sovereign citizens:
* Basically all the normal sovereign citizen stuff with a biblical or Christian-patriot rationale.
* The Moorish sovereigns:
* They share the basic claim that U.S. government institutions lack authority over them, but add a racial, religious, and pseudo-historical identity framework—usually identifying Black Americans as “Moors” with special sovereignty or treaty-based rights.
* Some of the common claims made by Moorish sovereigns include:
* That Black Americans are descendants of Moors, sometimes framed as Moroccan, “Moabite,” or indigenous American peoples.
* That ancestry is asserted to create a separate nationality rather than ordinary U.S. citizenship.
* The 1786 U.S.–Morocco Treaty of Peace and Friendship is often cited as granting personal sovereignty, diplomatic status, or exemption from laws.
* Also: Some adherents claim preexisting ownership or original-inhabitant status in North America.
There are also commonwealth versions (“freemen on the land”) swap in Magna Carta, Crown, and local statutes.
There is no central leader or membership card. Gurus sell kits, seminars, and YouTube scripts; individuals pick and mix. Some I could find:
https://aorhelp.com/
* The site’s creator offers American State National paperwork
* His “Freedom Bundle” adds a cover sheet, proof of service, deed of reconveyance, declaration of status, and passport-application talking points.
* He also Also sells trusts and private-membership-association products.
* National Freedom Support (NHS):
https://states.nationalfreedomsupport.com/
* They offer account-based “928 paperwork” and “baby deed” generators aimed at people joining state assemblies (TASA / American State National orbit).
* Some access is free after training, if you pay, you can skip the trainings
* Related assembly sites sell the same 1779/928 form sets.
* Sovereign Filing Solutions — makefreedom.com
* “Expedited Secured Party Creditor” process advertised around $899, plus ID packs (~$250) that require a paid “Sovereign Connection” membership. Classic redemption / UCC-1 style product, not just a PDF.
* A.W.A.R.E. — areweallreallyeducated.com
* They have a “We The People World Citizen Passport” bundle listed around $1,200
* This bundle includes a novelty passport/ID, affidavit of sovereignty, copyright-of-name paperwork, and a filled-out U.S. passport application pitched as “American National.”
What courts and agencies say
While sovereign citizens believe they have found a hidden legal off-switch, every court that has been challenged with this claim has ruled that it does not exist.
Specifically:
* U.S. courts at every level have rejected strawman, two-citizenship, admiralty-flag, and redemption arguments as legally meaningless.
* The IRS lists them as frivolous tax positions.
* The FBI has described violent* sovereign-citizen extremists as a domestic terrorism concern
* *most encounters are still non-violent (filings, fake documents, traffic-stop arguments), but a minority have killed officers or officials. Holding the beliefs is not a crime; using them to evade taxes, file false liens, or resist arrest is.
How Organized Are They?
While Sovereign Citizens are mostly decentralized, there is some organization:
* The Anti-Defamation League reported that in the 1990s, scores of common law courts nationwide; some still meet.
* Named organizations that the Southern Poverty Law Center and others have listed in recent years include the American States Assembly, National Liberty Alliance, Reign of the Heavens Society, various Moorish “nations” and “republics”
* The Southern Poverty Law Center counted 91 U.S. sovereign-citizen groups in 2024.
* Sovereign Citizens also had historic compounds such as the Montana Freemen’s “Justus Township” (1990s), which ran its own court and issued its own instruments.
* And this just sounds like an early version of seasteading and charter cities
* There are also overseas chapters with websites, Telegram channels, and training packets
* One example: Common Law Netherlands Earth
* linked to groups in Australia, Canada, and Spain).
So: organized cells and brands exist. A unified chain of command does not.
Attempts at “Law Enforcement
They treat this as restoring “common law,” not as play-acting. In practice it manifests as:
* Fake courts:
* Common-law courts, jural assemblies, and “people’s tribunals” hold hearings, “indict” judges, prosecutors, and sheriffs, and assign punishments.
* The Colorado Eight were convicted of racketeering after running such courts against Colorado officials.
* Oregon and other assemblies have put state agencies “on trial” in parks or online.
* The Montana Freemen tried officials in their own court and issued a writ of execution against a federal judge
* Fake warrants and paper enforcement.
* Those courts issue arrest warrants, capias writs, and liens and sometimes try to hand them to real sheriffs “for service.”
* That is a standard FBI-described tactic of common-law grand juries. States passed anti–paper-terrorism laws in the 1990s because of it.
* Self-appointed officers.
* People have styled themselves constitutional marshals, county rangers, tribal police, U.S. marshals, and “sheriffs.” They use homemade badges, plates, raid jackets, and IDs. Documented uses include trying to talk their way through traffic stops and courthouse security, “investigating” others, and showing up armed. Examples:
* 2017 New Mexico: four sovereign “marshals” in badge shirts tried to take an associate out of jail; they called ahead and said they were legitimate law enforcement.
* 2021: men tied to a Moorish group (Tsalagi Nation) arrested with “Tribal Marshal” plates, badges, and jackets after telling deputies they were conducting an investigation.
* Recent Moorish-style groups in Texas charged with using fake Moroccan/diplomatic IDs and plates to evade arrest
* Training to use force.
* The Dutch Common Law group circulated “sheriff” manuals that said those officers must be trained to arrest, detain, and use force to carry out tribunal verdicts.
* That is unusual in how explicit it is, but it matches the ideology: their sheriff, not the state’s, is the real peace officer.
* None of this has legal force. Courts treat the documents as void; wearing the badge is impersonation; serving a homemade warrant on a real official is intimidation or worse. When it stays on paper it is called paper terrorism. When people show up armed to “execute” a verdict, prosecutors treat it as a crime.
What I could find:
* Archives of old guides created: https://archive.org/download/common_law_handbook_for_Jurors_Sheriffs_Baliliffs_and_Justices
Why This is Interesting
As demographic collapse plays out and potential techno-feudalism seeps in, sovereign citizen stuff might be a version of a “poor man’s fiefdom” over time (at least one flavor of it).
Episode Transcript
Malcolm Collins:Just the confidence of this. Like, you know what? I’m gonna put on court and put you in jail.
Simone Collins:Well, literally, some have put entire state agencies on trial The Montana Freeman tried officials in their own court and then issued a writ of execution against a federal judge. Writ of execution? Like, big, guys. I mean, it takes a lot of balls to, like, show up in a US court and be like, I accuse you.
Malcolm Collins:And we’ve already tried you, and we’ve got your execution. So all the police here, take them in. it’s very mythological. Like, if you’re against mysticism, when you look at sovereign citizens, they are applying what looks like mystical rituals to the legal process.
Simone Collins:Hello, Malcolm. I’m very excited to be speaking with you today because we have an interesting tip from someone who listens to the podcast. They sent me on x this message. Here’s a potential rabbit hole for you. First, the video link, and he sends a YouTube video. What you’ll see are two African American men claiming to be marshals for the Cherokee Nation with guns, badges, folders of policies, etcetera. Why is this interesting? I’ve seen several videos now where it’s very similar circumstances. They are sovereign citizens claiming to work for marshal service for the supreme court, etcetera. They all have guns, badges, folders with FBI most wanted, etcetera, etcetera. And it seems there’s a central organization facilitating this behavior. So on one hand, sovereign citizen nonsense. On the other hand, people with badges, guns, and an organization behind it all seems like one of your episodes, a winky face. Well, thank you, friend. Because I thought about it, I’m like, you know what? I’ll bite. Especially after I saw the Google Trends information in Google Ngram for sovereign citizens. You you gotta Sorry. We need to clue I’m gonna explain what they are. I’m gonna explain. Yeah. We’re gonna get into it. So here is the Google Trends. You can see how over time, it actually really has gone on trivially up. Isn’t that crazy?
Malcolm Collins:Jesus. I thought sovereign citizen was, like, a 90 thing.
Simone Collins:I thought so too. And that’s what a lot of the reporting indicates. But look. Here is where’s where’s the nineties? Wait. Wait. Sorry. This is 2005. Right. but when you when you go to Google Ngram Viewer, actually, but first, here’s here’s a Google Trends detail. You can still see this is a very conservative thing. Right? California, not a really big deal. Wyoming Yeah. Huge. Missouri, West Virginia. So this is not, you know, an urban elite thing, which is one reason why I think we don’t really hear about it a lot. here’s Google Engram viewer, and this is what really got me. I was like, what? What is happening here? Yes. You do see a little bit in the nineteen nineties going down a little bit after going
Malcolm Collins:down and then boom.
Simone Collins:And then shazam. Like, something is going on
Malcolm Collins:Okay.
Simone Collins:With sovereign citizens. We gotta talk about this. And so I was like, you know what? Okay. I bite. I’m gonna get into this, and I need to know more. This is too weird for me to ignore.
Malcolm Collins:The the the basic to start by explaining what a sovereign citizen is. There’s half of our audience. I have no idea what you’re going on about here.
Simone Collins:Yeah. I wanna I I I don’t wanna reveal too much right away.
Malcolm Collins:Why? If not, it’s just I’ll explain it then.
Simone Collins:K. You you can give give give the one sentence to LDR, and I’ll go I’ll I’ll go into it more in a little bit.
Malcolm Collins:There are some Americans who believe that certain clauses that were tied to the foundation of the country or the way the legal system works means that if they choose for the law not to apply to them, the law doesn’t apply to them. And that that’s how they think American law works. Like, you need to consent to have the law apply to you. And if you say, well, I’m just a sovereign citizen. Like, I’m not under this, like, sort of, like, institutional bureaucracy that you opt into, I can do whatever I want whenever I want. Officer, you you you don’t have any power over me.
Simone Collins:Sort of. And they’re usually very annoying then. Yeah. Well, yes. Yes. That being being annoying and especially being annoying to law enforcement in courts is, like, one of their big things. But it’s more than that. fact, we we’ve also I realized this is a lot bigger than I thought because I I didn’t meet my first publicly proselytizing sovereign citizen until 2022 when we went to that one conservative conference. The right wing conference. Yeah. And I was, like, sitting in the VIP room, while you were talking to some journalist. and I I was sitting in, like, next to this other lady who was talking to someone, and she keeps going on about how, like, oh, no. Like, don’t you understand you don’t have to pay your taxes? Like, you you just the I don’t consent to paying my taxes. And I’m all like, hold on, lady. Like, what are you talking about? Like, you can’t do this. And she’s like, oh, yes. I can. and here’s how it works. So you just have to understand that, you know, I didn’t consent and, like, I was just so confused. But then I realized, oh, she wasn’t the only person that we’ve met who’s been touched by this movement. We also have met, Malcolm, people who literally have been born off the grid who do not have Social Security numbers. Who? I can’t tell you while we’re recording. They visited our house. They stayed with us. But, like leftists. Right?
Malcolm Collins:Or did they
Simone Collins:Not exactly. I would say they’re they’re not politically
Malcolm Collins:Oh, them. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I remember them. Yeah. They they were, like, white nationalist parents or something.
Simone Collins:I don’t think that’s true of the family from which this person came and the the context in which they were raised. In fact, this is not I would say it’s framed by organizations like the Southern Poverty Law Centers as white nationalists, but actually it has this growing and significant black contingent. As you can see from the video, we’re gonna start with the video. Well, I mean, our
Malcolm Collins:our friend who she’s referencing here, I won’t say her name, but I think that she sort of represents this in that she used to be married to a famous white nationalist leader, and now she’s married to and has a number of kids with a a famous Jewish leader. And I think with a lot of these types of people, it’s sort of just like, you know, any interesting intellectual philosophy that, like, grabs it. Right? Like and it’s really, like, fervent.
Simone Collins:And and I I don’t know. I can’t speak for these people, but I do think that that that is a characteristic of someone who was raised by this movement. Is it is bigger than we thought. If we’re just randomly running into people whose whole lifestyles were touched by something adjacent to this movement, I think that’s significant. Here’s the video that he sent me. What state is this? This the whole thing. You’re in you’re Indians? Yeah. Sup? Okay. Okay. Is this your government name and your date of birth? And the same thing with you? This is not a driver’s license or this is a form of identification, but it’s not a driver’s license.
Malcolm Collins:What is your nation, your Telugu Cherokee?
Simone Collins:Those are the guns in the back of his car. So keep in mind, this is two black Americans.
Malcolm Collins:Are you gonna keep playing this, or are gonna take it
Simone Collins:off nationalists. I mean, it’s not yeah. Not much more happens. I mean, like, basically, they both get arrested. Well, that’s good to hear. But then you could Yes. Yes. But, like, so here’s here’s what’s going on, in this particular altercation. I mean, they don’t get violent. basically, a Georgia sheriff’s deputy stops his vehicle preliminarily because it has a broken headlight and a non stand standard tribal marshal plate. And that’s why they’re like, where are you from? And the driver and passenger claim, as you heard, that they are sovereign Cherokee tribal marshals. The top comment in the YouTube video was like, Cherokee. Emojis. With authority nationwide, they said they had diplomatic immunity, and they had no need for state issued licenses. And they said they well, I mean, you saw the the self issued IDs that they gave. and they cite this unsigned document that allegedly was submitted to Georgia’s governor as proof of their legal status. the deputy notes that it’s neither signed nor valid. and, also, they found after they looked up the driver that he has a suspended Pennsylvania license despite repeatedly his insisting that he never held one. they also identified inconsistencies in the driver’s name, supposed military history, his vehicle registration, his claims destination. and they just said that the driver and his companion, that is that they were conducting a confidential law enforcement investigation. But they would refuse to explain it, and they couldn’t provide any sort of verifiable agency or supervisor or jurisdiction or legitimate credentials. And then after the deputy established that they were just presenting themselves as peace officers while operating without valid credentials, Obviously, he arrested the driver, both for driving on a suspended license and also impersonating an officer, and he arrested his friend for
Malcolm Collins:impersonating officer. They they they’re malicious in this. I think they just are idiots. Right? Like, in
Simone Collins:this Genuinely, I that seems to be the case here. And that, like, in the end, it actually turned out that when they looked further and threw their stuff in the car, according to the video at least, kind of suggested that their investigation mostly just involved pressuring someone to clean up their property rather than any sort of legitimate police work. And I’m like, what? Of all the things I mean, I get it. Like And
Malcolm Collins:it could have been really bad. I mean, know, all of America.
Simone Collins:Who knows? It could have been a storm, some branches down. I don’t know. But it seemed like a lot of a lot of bullets for all that.
Malcolm Collins:But this is very and we’ll do an entire episode on this where I point out that, like, this is very backwoods American culture. This is traditional. I mean, the regulators famously were like an alternate police force that the backwoods people would organize themselves because they just didn’t trust normal police. And for a while, like, that was the main police force in their regions because they just had a distrust. And backwoods culture heavily influenced black American culture, and they’re very, very, very similar to each other.
Simone Collins:Super connected foods. A lot of a lot of folkways in general, are
Malcolm Collins:Distrust of authority, high amounts of conspiratorialism.
Simone Collins:Yeah. And yet they’re framed as like, oh, but, like, the white backwards people are super racist against black people. And it’s like,
Malcolm Collins:oh, really? They’re more just honest.
Simone Collins:Yeah. They’re just like every yeah. And, like, I mean, also, just I feel like anyone who’s based
Malcolm Collins:They generally got along pretty well, historically speaking, when when in touch with other white groups. And they like, this is just very much like, yeah. I’m a police officer. What the heck? Like, I gotta handle Joe over there. Right? You know? Like
Simone Collins:Yeah. Like, take these well, what I think is very interesting and why I wanted to ultimately do this even though, like, this particular video, I don’t really see this as a sign of some greater uprising. Although you’re gonna see they’re way more organized than at least I thought. In a world in which we actually aren’t really seeing law enforcement follow-up with so many things, in a world in which now one of the most viral clips of the week is a UK police officer saying, and what am I supposed to do about it? In response to a guy being like, what he’s doing is illegal. Like, literally, the guy is right there breaking a law. What am I supposed to do about it? Gets in her car.
Speaker 5:You mentioned the point. He’s breaking the law right now.
Speaker 6:The What I supposed
Speaker 5:He’s to do? That’s got the one of the best quotes of all time by a police constable. He’s breaking the law. What am I supposed to do?
Simone Collins:Like, in that age where we can have tens of thousands of dollars stolen from our business, we report it to the proper authorities. We hear nothing. Crickets. Right? You know, that even though we’re above whatever threshold I would have assumed would have, you know, ignited some kind of investigation. I think a lot of people are starting to feel like, okay. We’re gonna need to turn like, do I need do we need to handle this, like, ourselves? Yeah. And also, we’re in on in addition to that, which is very much here and now today, we are anticipating demographic collapse in a world in which just literally city able to pay their police pension funds, let alone their police departments, we might just see a complete shutdown of police services and very, very spotty service. Someone that we’re a good friend that we’re I’m chatting with right now on Signal. Like, today, we were chatting about falling response times to 911 calls, and she was telling me how in some cities, like, they’re literally putting people on hold. With their 911. 911, please hold, which is not
Malcolm Collins:I remember that was a joke that I made up as they skit for a school play when I was a kid.
Simone Collins:Well, we live in that timeline now. our entire life is a joke that you made up in your high school plays.
Malcolm Collins:Not sorry. This was elementary school, Simone. This
Simone Collins:is I’m so
Malcolm Collins:middle school.
Simone Collins:Of course. Well, you’re so
Malcolm Collins:I’m a
Simone Collins:quite a sophisticated humorist. Humor, though, actually. Given all the other family stories I’ve heard, it’s true. But, yeah, I just I think the there’s a reason why we should be talking about sovereign citizens now, and this might actually help to explain why suddenly, for example, sovereign citizen is skyrocketing in Google and Grand Viewer and trending upward in Google Trends despite the fact that most people seem to think that, like, it reached its height in the nineties. But said a lot of it actually is that it’s just become a little bit more sophisticated and that the actually functional parts of it are just on the dark web and, like, happening and and churning along. One of the things that could be happening, and this is where we get into complete conjecture and conspiracy theory territory, is that a lot of people are unfairly discounting it because of the retarded things that they’re seeing online like this video, like
Malcolm Collins:these Yeah.
Simone Collins:And you’re gonna see some of the websites too.
Malcolm Collins:So there is when you say functioning parts of it, have people been able to use it to get certain rights or anything like that? Like, what what what have they been able to capture?
Simone Collins:Well, I mean, I think what we’re what I think may be happening is more functionally off the grids communities forming. You and I know people who participate in militias, who engage in forms of private security, which also are not at all weird or exotic. Consider the fact that, you know, Jewish communities in New York City have their own private police and ambulance systems. Like, this isn’t it it’s it’s not technically illegal depending on how it’s executed, and it’s not an unreasonable thing for a population that feels
Malcolm Collins:like itself. Yeah.
Simone Collins:Yes. And so I think what we may have happening to an increasing degree as conventional law enforcement and courts are falling apart is an increase in this. And it’s one of those things of, it could be a bad to pay problem where you’re only gonna see it really, when when it’s really stupid and bad when, like, the the the lowest capability people find it and run with it and either try to exploit it financially or exploit it personally and logistically. Often, people seem to be quite paired well together because they’re buying the, you know, kits. Like, those licenses Yeah.
Malcolm Collins:The kits.
Simone Collins:Someone. I’ll get into it. It’s great. But first, yeah, I wanna give you a little bit more of a sovereign citizen one zero one update because it’s not exactly what you said it was. But, yeah, it’s it is true that it’s this, like, very loosely connected movement of people that think that the current government is legitimate. Most statuses do not apply to them unless they consent, as you said, and that they can opt out of the legal system through through filings and wording and ritual. There are a ton of YouTube videos that you can easily find of sovereign citizens showing up to court and, like, thinking that they can use certain words, and you see them using them very conspicuously. Same with, dashcam or or, botoxism.
Malcolm Collins:It’s interesting because it’s very mythological. Like, if you’re against mysticism, when you look at sovereign citizens, they are applying what looks like mystical rituals to the legal process.
Simone Collins:And there’s enough people, like, hundreds of thousands of people in The United States alone. Though there are also, and I didn’t know this, freemen of the land movements in Canada and Australia and New Zealand and The UK, so basically the Commonwealth countries. They’re like the mere world version of them Okay. Where they also do this same ridiculous stuff. So there’s since there are hundreds of thousands of people who participate in this ideology, there is just this wealth of social media content of dashcam footage and court footage of them making complete fools of themselves. But I think that’s where the system is failing. It may be starting to along quite nicely.
Malcolm Collins:Well, they think the The United States court system works like Mormon heaven. You’ve gotta say all the right words to get in.
Simone Collins:Genuinely, it’s it is bizarre. Yeah. I mean, where where it falls apart clearly is when it comes into conflict with an a a still sufficiently powerful system in The United States. When the court systems and the police systems in The United States falter more, emphasis on the more because they’re already faltering as we can all see. Who knows what could happen?
Malcolm Collins:And that’s why president Comancho,
Speaker 7:Now I understand everyone’s s**t’s emotional right now, but listen up. I got a three point plan to fix everything. Break it down. What’s your head?
Malcolm Collins:he’s gonna be like sovereign citizens or now they do whatever they want.
Simone Collins:Police Yeah. Like, We are shutting down our systems now. We’re shifting to that system because it’s free. Yeah. It’s like the it’s the it’s the it’s the free open source AI, like, like, dumb version that, like, we can switch to. The the LLM response is not gonna be great, but, like, technically, it will give a response. The problem is
Malcolm Collins:what really happens when you do this at scale and without any additional rules is you get something like what happened in Chaz where a a series of warlords take over and start shooting people. Right?
Simone Collins:I do think, yeah, that there are serious governance problems with most of the sovereign citizen related collectives, but there are some that seem to be more functional than others, which is interesting. Because, again, a lot of it comes down to, okay. Is this one person kind of holding this entire assembly of people? Is it a group of people that have set up systematic and sustainable rules? There is variance, And and that’s, of course, what you would expect from a grassroots movement like this. But where you were a little bit off in your description of sovereign citizens is that they don’t believe that from the very beginning, the government was off. They think that the the government was secretly replaced, which I didn’t know. So they typically say that the the original constitutional or common law republic was swapped for an illegitimate and corporate admiral admiralty or commercial system. And some some people say this happened with the fourteenth amendment in 1868. Some think it happens with the civil war or the abandonment of the gold standard in 1933. But at any rate, under this old system, they would be free sovereigns. And under the new one, they’re treated as subjects or collateral. So there are two types of citizenship. And per many of these people, common reading of the fourteenth amendment holds that it it created a second class federal citizen distinct from the original state citizen or natural born sovereign. And they think that if you accept a Social Security number, hence our friend born without one, or a driver’s license or a ZIP code or other government paper, it’s treated as a contract that pulls you into the federal and corporate jurisdiction. So the key is to go completely off the grid to be free of them because it’s like, you know, you you created an account on a website, and you, like, say, yes.
Malcolm Collins:It’s sort of like magical thinking. Right?
Simone Collins:Which of Totally. Yeah. Like, don’t accept the food from the person of the underworld because as soon as you take one bite, you’re gonna be stuck in the underworld forever. It’s very that. and so they have this concept of the straw man complain they they they sort of see that every person is said to have two identities. So there’s you, Malcolm, the the person, and then there’s this separate legal fiction of and this is the straw man that’s created at your birth because you, you fool, have a Social Security number and a birth certificate. so this all caps name on your birth certificate, your Social Security card, like jaw like Malcolm Collins versus you, the person, is proof of your corporate shell. And then if you have tickets and taxes and court papers all addressed to the all caps name, that’s that’s like Malcolm LLC. that is not Malcolm the person.
Malcolm Collins:But what’s funny is they’re kind of right. So let me explain.
Simone Collins:Oh, no.
Malcolm Collins:If you, in The United States, are born without a Social Security number and you’re never, like, registered, right, you could get away without paying taxes. You just wouldn’t be able to, like, get a job or make significant money or
Simone Collins:have a paycheck. The country. Yeah.
Malcolm Collins:Yeah. You wouldn’t you wouldn’t like, you are giving up way more freedoms for that taxless status than the taxless status buys you. Like, it’d be so cool if with our company, we just didn’t have to pay taxes, but we wouldn’t have our company if we weren’t paying taxes. Right? Because
Simone Collins:I mean, the amount of trouble we go through to just set up a business bank account. I mean, it’s easy to set up a human bank account, especially a credit card account, because I just want your money. But that’s because they have your Social Security number, That’s because they can ask for things. Although I still cannot believe that companies accept debt from people considering how easy it is to just declare bankruptcy in The United States. That freaks me out. But, anyway, we did a whole debt jubilee thing on that. But I guess you are somewhat right. I still think this is somewhat ridiculous. But here’s where it got extra crazy for me, and I really didn’t. I think this is maybe one subfacet of the sovereign citizen delusion, but it also kind of, like, dovetails into oh, what’s his name? everyone loves him. He’s a T shirt of him. He had a T shirt of him at manifest. Everyone was wearing, like, his name. Hansen? Robin Hansen. Robin Hansen’s, fertility bond concept. Where, like, when a baby was born, the parents would, like, get their, like, $300,000, like, future taxes.
Malcolm Collins:Taxes. Future tax.
Simone Collins:They could, like, sell that bond. It takes too long
Malcolm Collins:to explain. It’s not relevant to the episode. Can you
Simone Collins:Anyway, so sovereign citizens believe that after 1933, the government pledged citizens as collateral for national debt and then opened a secret account, which is often claimed to be $600,000 to even millions of dollars tied to each birth certificate. So I’m like, oh, that reminds me of Robin Hanson’s whole
Malcolm Collins:bond. $600,000 per birth certificate.
Simone Collins:So, anyway, so the here’s the problem is some sovereign citizens attempt to redeem their bond in an attempt to tap that account to have it, like, pay their credit card debt, or they try to issue homemade financial instruments, like, against their bond. And courts obviously treat these as frivolous and often even as fraud. But
Malcolm Collins:But it’s but it’s like it’s like magic against
Simone Collins:the courts. It’s like, I have the secret money. No one told you about the secret money, did they? Why don’t you figure that out? And, of course, they they treat statuses as as or statutes, laws, as contracts. And according to them, if you don’t consent, if you don’t join the proceeding or use the right phrases, like, I do not consent or am I being detained? You’ll see this a lot in the body cam footage. I am a living man slash woman. It’s another thing. they believe that the police and and courts lack authority.
Speaker 20:You were receiving infringement notice in the mail for failing to wear a seat belt. Okay?
Speaker 21:Do your best.
Speaker 20:Okay. Do you sub
Speaker 21:I don’t consent to any of this.
Speaker 20:Yep. What are your details, if that’s alright? Just your name and date of birth. uh
Speaker 21:Uh, what I have to give that to you for? Yep. Am I under obligation to give you that license?
Speaker 20:Your By law? Name and address. By law? Name and address. Yes.
Speaker 21:Can you cite that law for me, please?
Speaker 20:Yep. So it’s the summary offence act, which is four five eight.
Speaker 21:Act as on law. So do you agree on the man?
Speaker 20:I don’t know. I don’t I’m not gonna assume your gender, sir.
Speaker 21:Oh, you can tell. You a man, as in mankind. I can’t
Speaker 20:assume your I apologize. Right. Yeah.
Speaker 21:I can’t do that. Yeah. I’m an 80 year old lady. Do you agree on the man?
Speaker 20:Know what you identify as.
Speaker 21:A living man. I’m I’m alive. I Am I alive?
Speaker 20:That you’re alive. Yes.
Speaker 21:I’m alive.
Speaker 20:Okay. I I fully agree that you’re alive.
Speaker 21:Okay. Yeah. So living man is in mankind.
Speaker 20:Present in body and mind. Yeah. So Yeah.
Speaker 21:You haven’t you haven’t stipulated to me that law where I have to give you my license. Yeah. So it’s
Speaker 20:the summary offenses act. Your mobile phone is there. You’re more than welcome to look up the summary offenses
Speaker 21:act.
Speaker 20:Go for it. Act is my law.
Speaker 10:Okay? Well So that’s all we need is we need to be able to identify who you are. Okay? It is me baptizing my wife. Okay. That’s not that’s not that’s not an ID.
Simone Collins:Yeah. So it’s like having a cheat code in a video game where they’re just like, oh, oh, I I can’t do it. And many also claim that the county sheriff is the highest lawful official and that state and federal officials are illegitimate. So they will actually obey county level laws, just not federal laws, which is interesting. So it’s nuanced. It it is a fairly nuanced and sophisticated thing,
Malcolm Collins:which I think adds to Wait. But how organized are they? That’s that’s what I wanna hear about.
Simone Collins:Yeah. Okay. This is what surprised me in that there are and this is reported so there’s there’s some skew to how this is being report reported. But the Anti Defamation League reported that in the nineteen nineties, at least, scores of common law courts existed nationwide, and some of them still meet today, like actual courts. And I did indeed find it’s hard to find common law websites because I think most of them the ones that function have shifted to the dark the dark web, and you can’t just search them in conventional search engines. And I didn’t wanna take the time to search the dark web for all this stuff. But you can actually still find archives of guides to, like, old like, how to here. Let me I’m just gonna show you my screen. I’m gonna show you one of the archives that you can see. Share screen. Common law handbook for jurors. So here, you can download.
Malcolm Collins:The interesting thing about what makes somebody go into sovereign citizenship Is it’s this weird combination of, like, low intelligence, mystical thinking, and extremely high agency. It’s like high agency people are good. I’m always like, I want more high agency people. And then I’m like, well, like, let’s put some caveats on that.
Simone Collins:Yeah. But here you can see if I’m gonna make this a little bit bigger. Yeah. So here, there’s you can see the handbook for jurors, sheriffs, and bailiffs, and justices. And then also there’s they’re in all a bunch of different format. I’ll I’ll stop sharing that. But you can see there are, like, detailed guides Yeah. Which has led some organizations to be very concerned because the guides, for example, for sheriffs are, like, you need to use, if necessary, deadly force to go ahead and enforce whatever it is that you need to enforce. But yeah. So there are courts that are meeting and resolving things that we do not have insight into that may just be in some places, in some community, just just going about handling things. You mean,
Malcolm Collins:did sovereign citizens have their own court system that’s actually working?
Simone Collins:Some do. Yes. I mean, allegedly, theoretically. Named organizations at the Southern Poverty Law Center, although, you know, we all know that they just made up racism by
Malcolm Collins:Yeah. The group that invented KKK.
Simone Collins:It’s an American Nazi. But they they have listed some on their website in recent years that include the American States Assembly, the National Liberty Alliance, Reign of the Heaven Society, and then various Moorish nations and republic and republics. And they counted 91 of these US sovereign citizen groups as of 2024, two years ago. By the way, just in terms of the this is not white nationalists. I’m going back to my show notes to find this because
Malcolm Collins:It sounds like they’re about half black groups.
Simone Collins:Yeah. So in the earlier days, it was mostly white people, and there’s sort of this, like, Christian subset where it’s basically all the normal sovereign citizen stuff than with this biblical Christian patriot rationale. The Moorish sovereigns the Moor sovereigns are different and and interesting because like with the sort of Christian variant of sovereign citizens, they share this claim that the US government lacks authority over them. But then they add this racial, religious, and pseudohistorical identity framework, usually identifying black Americans as Moors with special sovereignty or treaty based rights. So some of the common traits that you’ll see with Moors sovereigns, which you will have noticed resonate with the video that we watched at the top, that they hold that black Americans are descendants of Moors, and sometimes they’re framed as Moroccan or Moabite or indigenous American people. So we’re all over the place already. But okay. Yeah. There’s the movement
Malcolm Collins:now that native Americans aren’t real and we’re actually black. I don’t know if you’ve you’ve seen this movement.
Speaker 17:I can’t stand you uneducated black creators with a big platform. It’s too much DNA and too many books out here proving that black Americans are the real indigenous people of America and that native Americans are nothing but Asians who crossed the barren and got stuck over here because the goddamn barren melted. Either stick to mediocre news or pick up a goddamn book that was written back in the fifteen and sixteen hundreds and educate yourself. Because the corner is thinning out your dreads, and it’s pissing me off.
Simone Collins:Well, they they said they were Cherokee. I should also note, though, that the video specified, and it’s all linked in the show notes, that the Cherokee Nation has nothing to do with them and that the marshals of the Cherokee Nation are like, I do not know who these people are. How could this must be very odd for the Cherokee. Anyway, they also
Malcolm Collins:Native Americans are a European conspiracy, and we are the real natives.
Simone Collins:It’s yeah. They they hold that their ancestry is is asserted to create this separate nationality rather than ordinary US citizenship. So they’re, like, just different nationals. They they hold the the 1786 US Morocco treaty of peace and friendship, grants them personal sovereignty, diplomatic status, or sometimes exemption from laws. So, again, a 1786 Morocco treaty of peace and friendship is their trump card there. And some adherents also claim preexisting ownership of or original inhabitant status in North America, like you said, where they’re like, no. I am a Native American. I was here from the start. So either they’re Moores who had a treaty in 1786, or they’re just native Americans. And so that makes them extra interesting, which is very interesting.
Malcolm Collins:That’s very fun. Yes.
Simone Collins:Yeah. And, also, there’s the products with this movement highly entertaining. There are books on Amazon. They are delightful. They they have they’re basically guides. So there’s the sovereign citizens cutout book two point o. Cut the government out of your life forever. It has only three stars, though, and 18 reviews. All of them have very few reviews. The sovereignty blueprint. Title four flag says your shwag. How to travel in the private. A lawful guide something something. Title four flag says your shwag again. Sovereign citizens, deconstructing, decoding. Like, it’s all very it’s all very, a guide to just going off the grid. on Etsy, you can buy your sovereign citizen license plate. I should ship it because it’s so it’s so cute. we should we should just buy one and just get pulled over all the freaking time.
Malcolm Collins:For being a sovereign citizen.
Simone Collins:Because that is what would happen. It’s kind
Malcolm Collins:of inevitable. I just can’t imagine how they think all of this is supposed to actually this is what I talk about when because this happened in our talk with Celestium that unfortunately got deleted, so we’ll have to redo. But I realized she saw the world very differently than we did. Like, the way she processed reality was.
Simone Collins:Like Sovereign citizen, no driver license or insurance required. Not for commerce use or private mode of travel. Traveling, not driving. Free man. It’s only $19.95, but there are 10 left in two carts already. So you better hurry up and draw.
Malcolm Collins:And No driver’s license or insurance required. I learned just like, the laws don’t apply. It reminds me of
Simone Collins:when he’s like,
Speaker 3:Hey, Ron. You’re not gonna slaughter that pig here, are you?
Speaker 4:Not to worry. I have a permit.
Speaker 3:This just says I can do what I want.
Simone Collins:Like, actually, though. That that mean, that that basically is what happened in that original video. And there are all these sites too that keep selling things for actually pretty expensive prices. Like, there’s one sovereign citizen website called Aware or aware,rwereallyeducated.com, that has a we, the people, world citizen passport bundle listed around 1,200. And this bundle includes a novelty passport and ID. Oh, or were you just playing a page
Malcolm Collins:I’m playing a clip to make sure that I can have it for a
Simone Collins:Oh, so you don’t forget it? Yeah. So this is how spammy some of these websites are, by the way. This is the We The People World Citizen Passport bundle for 9,200. Free customer reviews, but five stars. Well, almost five stars. Oh god. Yeah. It’s you you have to make a crypto donation or donate via cap Cash App because, obviously, they are unbanked for the most part. And, you have to just this this website is so it’s it’s it’s very questionable. I love the the pictures that they send. I wonder if the passport that they give to people already has stamps in it. I think that’d be really cute, and I think that they should do that. But it they’re very like, all of the sides have the same extremely
Malcolm Collins:Oh my god. Like, very it’s sort of nineties feel.
Simone Collins:Yeah. And very nineties feel.
Malcolm Collins:Wait till these people learn AI. I can only imagine the stuff they’re gonna make.
Simone Collins:For real. Yeah. This is this is some I mean, look. This is clearly made. This is They’re clearly using some AI already. Yeah. This this screams OpenAI right here.
Malcolm Collins:But it looks good. I’m gonna
Simone Collins:be honest. Best looking part of their website, I guess. Yeah. I guess they’re just slowly slowly adjusting to it. But, anyway
Malcolm Collins:Oh
Simone Collins:my god.
Malcolm Collins:Did you see I sent you this yesterday? I did a Google search, and it generated an image for me.
Simone Collins:Yeah. That was pretty crazy. I guess we get free image generation tokens. Are you I do have some kind of plus plan with Google. I know I do.
Malcolm Collins:Yeah. I I do pay them for, like, storage and stuff like that. And
Simone Collins:I And I think that gets you premium AI services just, like, built into your your search.
Malcolm Collins:Weird.
Simone Collins:So yeah. Anyway, so they have these courts. Sovereign citizens also had some historic compounds. There was one called Montana Freeman’s just Justice Township, but Justice was spelled J U S T U S. Is that how you spell Justice? It seems wrong.
Malcolm Collins:I don’t know. I don’t spell, Simone. People know this from my title cards.
Simone Collins:Yeah. Anyway, it ran its own court. It issued its own instruments, and it sounds basically to me like an early version of sea studying and charter cities. And I think to a great extent, this is kind of like the free version, the poor person’s version of future techno feudalism. You know, as people escape to their walled cities that have their own private security and all their own infrastructure, maybe what’s gonna happen with a lot of the people who are, quote, unquote, left behind is they become sovereign citizens and just kinda have to figure out their own court systems, their own justice systems, their own security, and it’s it’s pretty it’s pretty crazy. The thing about the current court system is that right now, it seems to mostly just involve harassing law enforcement and existing agencies. So some of these fake courts would hold hearings, but then indict judges, like US judges, government judges, and prosecutors, and sheriffs. And then they would assign punishments to government workers, US government workers. one group called the Colorado eight was convicted of racketeering after running such courts against Colorado officials. So, like, all these policemen are getting, like, you know, you you we have to, I don’t know, need to go to jail, for, I don’t know, doing their jobs
Malcolm Collins:Yeah.
Simone Collins:In Oregon and in some some other ascendi sorry. Oregon and some other ascendi
Malcolm Collins:Just the confidence of this. Like, you know what? I’m gonna put on court and put you in jail.
Simone Collins:Well, literally, some have put entire state agencies on trial in parks or online. So, also, it’s it’s online Internet justice. Wait.
Malcolm Collins:So they go to, like, the park and set up a court?
Simone Collins:Where else are you gonna do it? I don’t know. So let’s see. Look. Space rental’s very expensive these days. You know, the contracts to just get, like, a terrible conference room in a hotel.
Malcolm Collins:The IRS on trial here, people. Like
Simone Collins:Yeah. Like, meet me in Lincoln Park. The Montana Freeman tried officials in their own court and then issued a writ of execution against a federal judge. Writ of execution? Like, big, guys. I mean, it takes a lot of balls to, like, show up in a US court and be like, I accuse you.
Malcolm Collins:And we’ve already tried you, and we’ve got your execution. So all the police here, take them in.
Simone Collins:Yep. And and to your joke about, like, writing just your permit or whatever, yes, those courts also will issue warrants and liens and sometimes try to hand them to real sheriffs for service. And the standard FBI described tactic of common law grand juries is that states passed anti paper terrorism laws in the nineteen nineties because what they are calling this in many cases is paper terrorism where just sovereign citizens will spam them with all these, like, really bogus weird lawsuits, but it takes time to process all of them and to say, like, roughly, this isn’t even wrong.
Malcolm Collins:And The US legal system against five schizophrenic people.
Simone Collins:Yeah. For real.
Malcolm Collins:For real. The question I have here is what was it? With the the, why is this exploding now? I really think
Simone Collins:it has to do with a response to collapsing Trusting systems. Yeah. And and the thing is it doesn’t show up in mainstream progressive coastal Well, I mean, one of
Malcolm Collins:the things that’s happening right now is social communities are becoming incredibly silent. And, you know, people outside of our community, I’m like, well, don’t you know that? I’m a gold star. Actually, I’m like, what are you talking about? And I’m like, yeah. It’s like one of the most famous people in The United States right now. Like, what do you mean? What am I talking about?
Simone Collins:Oh, it’s it’s again, this is one element of techno feudalism, which is the balkanization culture. And the fiefdoms are not necessarily going to all be physical.
Malcolm Collins:And this is one fiefdom for stupid people. I bet it’s got a lot of Pentecostals in it. Right? You know, like charismatic Christians all the way. You know?
Speaker 22:To be clear here, I am only joking about the charismatic pentecostal movement. I actually quite like the regular pentecostal movement. It’s just very small in contrast with the charismatic pentecostal movement.
Malcolm Collins:They they
Simone Collins:Yeah. Look. The stuff that surfaces is not great. In 2017 in New Mexico, four sovereign marshals in badge shirts tried to take one of their friends out of jail. They called ahead, and they said that they were legitimate law enforcement. It’s not like they were, like, breaking in. They, like, showed up with their shirts, with their badges, and we’re like, I’m here to pick up Joe. I am legitimate. We’ve decided.
Malcolm Collins:We, among ourselves, decided that he doesn’t need to be here anymore.
Simone Collins:Yeah. Yeah.
Malcolm Collins:Well, what’s funny is today, this is such a problem, but there are periods in American history where, like, this probably was genuinely a major issue, like, the West and stuff. Like, a group of get together, and they just decide, well, we’re a court now.
Simone Collins:Well and I think that, you know, in in more lawless areas, the law enforcement that exists is the law enforcement that chooses to do the work. And, honestly, it’s not it’s not always great work. And I think one of the reasons why this system doesn’t work and why it’s so stupid now is this isn’t actually law enforcement. This is people you know, it’s those guys in the original video who ultimately just wanted someone to clean up their property.
Malcolm Collins:It’s mixing law enforcement with HOA women, and, like, that’s the worst mix.
Simone Collins:Yeah. That’s what it’s gonna be. It’s gonna be Karens. It’s gonna be the Karens being like, you can’t put your trash cans out on the street when it’s not a Wednesday.
Malcolm Collins:Except the Karens will have the giant guns like those guys had, like
Simone Collins:Yeah. Really honest. They were like mean, I I wouldn’t wanna be near those guys, personally. And, yeah, there there is I don’t know what’s going on with the the groups identifying as Moorish just going off. Like, even recent Moorish style groups in Texas were charged with using a fake Moroccan and diplomatic IDs to evade arrest. In 2021, men tied to a Moorish group called the Salaghi Nation were arrested with tribal marshal plates and badges and jackets after telling the deputies, like with those men in the other video, that they were conducting an investigation. So this is just it’s getting weird. You can’t really see a whole lot of what’s going on because it is so heavily offline. I mean, kind of the point of it is you have to opt out of the things that give you
Malcolm Collins:a document that you’re chop or Chaz. Right? Like
Simone Collins:Yeah. Kind of. Kind of. Yeah. I mean, it’s it’s hard to find these people because they don’t have Social Security numbers. They don’t have, like they and they’re they’re trying to erase everything. Everything. But, But, anyway, what you can find is quite hilarious, and it’s amusing. I I linked to other crazy, really funny things in the show notes. You should check them out on Substack and Patreon, and thank you for hearing me out on this, Malcolm. It is
Malcolm Collins:I love you, Simone. This was fascinating. You guys should check out rfab.ai or mudpuppy.ai.rfab is our chatbot site. We’ve got all the the chatbot adventures, sort of, like, tell your own adventure story book things you can do. We recorded these episodes on that website. We edited these episodes on that website. So if you like video recording, you like video editing, we offer services there. We do card game with AI. It’s like magic the gathering, but the rules are decided based on AI. We got, you know, all sorts of AI tools for you. You know, you wanna transform a document into, like, an audio file.
Simone Collins:Or dub anime including the accents.
Malcolm Collins:Dub anime including the accent. We got based AI on the website, which is, like, a way more based model than any model you’ve ever seen. We’ve got, I mean, it’s it’s that one’s a bit intermittent because it’s, you know, a whole unique model. It’s quite complicated. what else do we got on the website? We got lots of cool stuff.
Simone Collins:Image generation and what I find the most fun is the the newest thing that I’m really into is model comparison, where you can see what the same prompt generates across all the major image models. Yes.
Malcolm Collins:That’s that’s and we also do that for video, you can compare them all. And we do that for narrative engines too. So if you’ve ever been like, what’s the best narrative engine for me? You can run multiple narrative engines against your story, multiple models against your story even within the same narrative engine, and we now make it easier to use our site for free. So if you’re like, I don’t wanna pay you guys. I wanna use we literally have it run on Kimi too. Right? Like, that’s our free model. And for clarification, if you were gonna run Kimi two locally, like, you’re like, what is that compared to, like, a that’s, I think, a 100 gigabytes of RAM it would take. So these are, you know, to run smoothly. Like, quite advanced models that we’re offering for free if that’s the path you wanna go
Speaker 15:So I was wrong here. It requires significantly more than that. To get Kimi two to run locally at full, it takes over a terabyte of RAM, 1.1 terabytes of RAM. To get it to barely run, you would need at least a quarter terabyte of RAM. So that’s what we’re offering for free. And, also, as a quick aside here, this is what I mean when I say people who run local models are stupid to especially if they’re doing it in an attempt to, quote, unquote, save money, where we let you run what would take you a terabyte of RAM to run free on our fab to just take around. So have fun with that.
Malcolm Collins:.
Simone Collins:I I can free pay. To us, but it’s, you know, it’s a nonprofit. We we’re trying to be nice.
Malcolm Collins:Trying to be nice, get more people into AI, storytelling, adventures. You know? Have fun. I mean, if if if too many people exploit the free system, we’ll put more restrictions on it, but, you know, right now
Simone Collins:Yes. So be nice, please. Let let us you know, don’t don’t do the
Malcolm Collins:this Well, how about this? If you’re using it free, understand that that still costs us money and that what you can do in exchange is talk about it in the, you know, the Discords where other people talk about, you know, all of our competitors, be they, you know, Candy AI or Janitor AI or Soccer FM or, you know, any of these these older systems. Just talk about us in those environments, and then you can feel like you’re not being unethical by wasting all our money.
Simone Collins:You’re also doing other people favors because the sites are way exploitative. Way exploited people’s money. Giving you terrible models and results and then wasting your money. So love you, Malcolm. You. Oh, that’s the only way we can really know that the mics are connected. Do you want your pajama pants? I guess there really is something to be said for men’s skirts because I feel like the only thing that would get men out of pajama pants is skirts. But ice kilts have too many folds to be comfortable. Do you remember all the people who would walk around wearing utility kilts in the Bay Area?
Malcolm Collins:Oh, they thought it was so cool, and then it became
Simone Collins:even cooler and edgier to wear skirts. That’s true. Yeah. And they had that sort of it was like a boho look, but that looked terrible. Utility belts, I can take.
Malcolm Collins:The it looks really ugly. Yeah. And the well, and always at the the orgies or whatever, the guys was the skirt. I’m I’m super tough because I wear a skirt. And I love that oh my god. We totally have to do an episode on this. Effective altruism has broken containment with the Trump White House.
Simone Collins:Like Department of War being like, No. No effective altruism.
Malcolm Collins:The White House goes to war with effective altruism. Great episode, by the way. I wanna I wanna do it at some point. Go go over all the White House. And and who at the White House is instigating this? Like, clearly, it’s somebody at our social circle.
Simone Collins:Someone fantastic. I do not know who, but
Malcolm Collins:they get it. This is where I think that they must be watching our podcast. Like, I I I know that a number of people in the White House watch our podcast, but, like, I that it’s influencing the culture to that extent because I don’t know any other right wing influencers.
Simone Collins:Out there, we salute you. Like, you are doing god’s work.
Malcolm Collins:Yeah. Who who else is the right wing influencer is regularly attacking effective altruists?
Simone Collins:I don’t know. I mean, keep in mind that Brian Chow has also been raising a lot more awareness about the fundraising. You know, we just signal boosted it. He was doing the original reporting. He hung out in DC for a long time. Like, he’s been to three of our DC parties. So
Malcolm Collins:Oh, yeah. And he’s got lots of friends in the White House.
Simone Collins:Yeah. So I think probably this is more of a branch out thing, but the gotta get to plug
Malcolm Collins:us into whatever network that is. The the anti gay genius network here.
Simone Collins:Yeah. His network is insane. Okay. How’s it going on? He’s been on
Malcolm Collins:our show a number of times, by the way. If you wanna check out those episodes, just look up Brian Chow.
Simone Collins:He’s super he’s just so cool too. He’s he’s super cool, super chill, amazing amazing breath of knowledge. And I just
Malcolm Collins:But, like, all of our Asian friends, we can’t breed him. You you try to hook him up with somebody.
Simone Collins:He had a girlfriend for a while, and then he didn’t have a girlfriend. And then he was like, I don’t know. He just doesn’t care enough. Yeah. Well, he’s not working for it. And, I mean, you treated it as a full time job on top of your job. Like, you you know, every night you were out dating.
Malcolm Collins:It’s not existential for him.
Simone Collins:Whereas it was it was definitely existential for you. And it still took you how many
Malcolm Collins:All of the right people I know who are Asian. Right? Like, that that are, like, in the pronatalist network and Asian. I just can’t they they’re, like, theoretically, like, I understand the problem. It’s just I don’t care enough. Yeah. And I’m like, well, we’d love to have you on board, but whatever.
Simone Collins:I don’t know. Maybe just IVG or whatever. And maybe he’ll find you know? I think it’s very likely that he runs into the right girl on x. You know, and they
Malcolm Collins:Too late. He’s got years left.
Simone Collins:He’s he’s in his low twenties. He’s young. He’s a wunderkind. He’ll be okay. Alright. I have faith in him anyway. We should probably not.
Malcolm Collins:You gotta you gotta breed those Asians. They’re they’re part of our fan base. It’s like, what are you guys doing? Only white people.
Simone Collins:Possibly what they want. Whatever. I I don’t care anymore. I do not care. You ready to do
Malcolm Collins:this? Ready to do this, Simone. K.
Speaker 24:Wait. So what’d you find? We found a leaf. This is our favorite one. You found favorite leaves? My leaf. I see your leaf. It’s beautiful. Look at all of those leaves. I can go this many in the world. Torsten, do you think that there’s that many leaves in the world? Okay. It says this is a looks like it’s a uh Chinese tallow tree leaf.
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