] Malcolm Collins: Even in the images you can see the degree of dehumanization that, that liberals haveYeah[00:00:04] of conservatives.[00:00:04] Simone Collins: Yeah, no, honestly, the liberal- No- ... composite face of a conservative barely looks human.[00:00:10] Malcolm Collins: What I want to point out here is- Yeah the interesting question that comes downstream of this-[00:00:15] Is it tactically a mistake of conservatives to be so forgiving and generous in our perspectives on progressives?[00:00:26] Would you like to know more?[00:00:28] Simone Collins: Hello, Malcolm. I am very excited to be speaking with you today because I saw something on X today that makes me think I should rethink my whole assuming the best of other people thing and politics in general, and I need to... I need a smart man to help me process this. So can we go over it?[00:00:48] Malcolm Collins: No. I’m done.[00:00:50] Simone Collins: Okay, bye.[00:00:51] Malcolm Collins: I am done supporting your dumb womanly mind. Well- ... not intuitively... No, actually you showed me this morning, and it was shocking. It was shocking.[00:00:58] Simone Collins: Yeah, okay. Let’s go over it. What I showed[00:01:00] Malcolm Collins: Malcolm- And it does make me re-rethink some things, too.[00:01:02] Simone Collins: Okay. Yeah, we’re gonna go...[00:01:03] The, the research is actually really fun. But I’ve... What I showed Malcolm and what I had seen was Cremieux posting on X, “There’s an asymmetry in how liberals and conservatives evaluate one another. Liberals dehumanize conservatives more than conservatives suspect. Conservatives dehumanize liberals less than liberals suspect.”[00:01:22] And he was responding to Arctotherium, someone we’ve covered, whose work we’ve covered multiple times on the podcast, who had written, “In the US, liberals think conservatives hate them much more than conservatives actually do, while conservatives don’t realize liberals hate them as much as liberals actually do.[00:01:39] The hatred asymmetry is one reason liberals tend to win over time.” Which confused some people on X, but it makes a lot of sense to me because basically if you think that your enemy is super evil and they absolutely hate you, you’re going to do anything you can to suppress and stop them.[00:01:57] Whereas if you think your enemy’s an ass sometimes, but they generally mean well, you’re n- you’re maybe not gonna fight tooth and nail to stop them.[00:02:06] Malcolm Collins: And it’s once you have power, you’re not going to rig the system for yourself in the future, right? Like-[00:02:11] Simone Collins: Yeah. But I, you could see the, which of those groups is more likely to rig elections?[00:02:16] Which of these groups is more likely to try to disempower or censor or jail the other group, right? This is a meaningful and it has pretty significant knock-on effects. Both Cremieux and Arctotherium were referring to recently published research as of July 7th, and we’re rec- we’re recording this at the end of July.[00:02:33] So pretty recent. Published in the Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin titled Political Meta-Dehumanization in Mental Representations: Divergent Emphases in the Minds of Liberals Versus Conservatives. And what the researchers found, in sum, is that liberals and conservatives dehumanize each other in different ways, and that each side has a surprisingly accurate sense of the type of dehumanization they receive, even while misjudging the overall intensity.[00:03:05] So as much as on X people really showing this asymmetry and intensity, it’s actually interesting to go into the research and see the different ways that liberals and conservatives are dehumanized and that they understand this to be the case, which is fun. So here’s how the experiment they did worked, and it involves funny photos that I’m going to share with you ‘cause they, they make me laugh.[00:03:26] So they had participants choose faces that look like a liberal or look like a conservative, so they’re really going with people’s internal stereotypes, and they did this hundreds of times. And then they created these they averaged these images into composite faces that approximate that approximate their mental representations.[00:03:47] So what I’m about to show you, Malcolm, is the mind’s eye view of a conservative’s view of conservatives versus liberals, and a liberal’s view of liberals versus conservatives. [00:04:00] And you’ll see that the way conservatives view things... I’m, don’t worry, listeners, I will describe this to you. Conservatives see themselves as a pretty reasonable guy, kinda happy.[00:04:09] He looks like a guy who’s,[00:04:10] Malcolm Collins: Yeah ...[00:04:11] Simone Collins: watching a sports competition. I’m not very good at this. But yeah, he’s he’s watching a movie. He’s eating some popcorn, he’s happy. He’s okay.[00:04:19] And the way he views liberals is someone who actually looks pretty similar, but just looks like someone ate his last, he just went to the freezer and he pulled out the ice cream he loves so much and he finds that it’s empty, okay? That’s what it looks like. That, that face of just “Oh someone ate the last of my Cheetos and I’m sad.” And that’s what a liberal looks like to conservatives. Now, liberals see themselves as a kind of like upbeat, happy-go-lucky someone looks like he’s he’s got his hands in his pockets and he’s walking down the street whistling.[00:04:51] But ) my God, the way, the[00:04:54] Malcolm Collins: way[00:04:54] Simone Collins: they see[00:04:54] Malcolm Collins: conservatives- The liberal- ...[00:04:55] Simone Collins: meh. It looks like a troll man. Like a, a frog under- under bridge troll. Is that accurate, Malcolm, am I- Yeah, that’s,[00:05:02] Malcolm Collins: that’s literally- ... using good words? ... what they think conservatives are, is[00:05:04] Simone Collins: like- Yeah,[00:05:05] Malcolm Collins: meh ... under bridge trolls.[00:05:05] Meh. Meh.[00:05:06] Simone Collins: Yeah, you can’t hear me, but that’s the sound he would make. So again, we have the guy watching a movie he likes or a, a football terminent- tournament. I’m really bad. And s- and then there’s the guy as seen the liberals as seen by conservatives who’s, last, the last scoop of ice cream was sold of his favorite flavor.[00:05:23] He’s sad. He’s missing out. It’s a kind of s- missing out kind of sad face. Whereas liberals are like, “Oh doo, I’m a happy person and I’m good,” versus the scary troll man, okay? So we proceed, right?[00:05:34] Malcolm Collins: Even in the images you can see the degree of dehumanization that, that liberals have- Yeah[00:05:38] of conservatives.[00:05:39] Simone Collins: Yeah, no, honestly, the liberal- No- ... composite face of a conservative barely looks human.[00:05:45] Malcolm Collins: What I want to point out here is- Yeah ... where we’re going with this. And I think the interesting question that comes downstream of this-[00:05:52] Is it tactically a mistake of conservatives to be so forgiving and generous in our perspectives on progressives?[00:06:03] And does it lead us to not be ruthless politically where we need to be acting more ruthlessly or with more energy? And-[00:06:12] Simone Collins: Spoiler alert, I think what is really important, and you can tell me what your take is, but the word condescend used to be used in a positive context. It was basically another word for noblesse oblige.[00:06:24] You would condescend to someone because they were more poor and stupid. And you would just make sure they were okay, but you also wouldn’t trust them to do anything. You wouldn’t give them, the, the keys to your kingdom or any sort of authority or approval rights over anything because they’re stupid.[00:06:43] But you still have to be nice to them because they didn’t choose to be stupid. And that’s the way that I think maybe conservatives should be a- approaching liberals, to still have empathy and be friends and everything, but do not give them Mod access to your life, right? Don’t give them admin access.[00:07:00] That would be very bad given the findings of this research. All right?[00:07:05] Malcolm Collins: So I’m gonna, I’m gonna th- push back on the way that you handle this. Okay. I actually think that, two things. I think, one in younger conservatives in the new right this naivety is not there in the way it’s in other versions of the right.[00:07:20] Simone Collins: Fair[00:07:20] Malcolm Collins: enough. And this is because so many of us used to be progressives and surrounded by the progressive culture.[00:07:26] Simone Collins: Oh, I thought you were gonna say ‘cause mask goes off on social media. No. People didn’t used to have that perception, now they’re- It’s- ... getting the death threats.[00:07:32] Malcolm Collins: I wouldn’t understand how extremely negative and bigoted liberals, like urban elites are- to what they conceive of as conservatives. They see them as essentially inhuman. They see them as the deplorables, as, as Hillary called them, right? That is their view of you, your worldview, and everything you’re building. And that’s the way they’ll act. They can only act with vitriol.[00:07:55] A- and they really lack the ability to empathize. And there was [00:08:00] another study, I don’t know if you’re gonna go into it, we’ve covered it before, that looked at a very similar question which was b- basically the level of generosity with which each side treats the other side. And it found the same thing that progressives are just really ruthless and dehumanizing of conservatives, and conservatives generally try to see the best in progressives. A- and they think they’re just stupid, basically. It, it basically showed, and I think this is something everyone[00:08:23] Progressives think conservatives are conservatives because conservatives have malice in their hearts and want to hurt them. Whereas conservatives generally believe progressives are progressives simply because they haven’t taken the time to ironically educate themselves on the topics enough and are deluding themselves around specific topics, or that they don’t have access to all the information, or they’re just a little slow.[00:08:44] Simone Collins: Like- That’s actually ... Th- this, this study looked at that, so let’s go, let’s continue.[00:08:47] Malcolm Collins: But hold on. Because they didn’t just do this. What I wanted to get to before we get into the study-[00:08:50] Simone Collins: Okay ...[00:08:50] Malcolm Collins: is my counter,[00:08:53] Simone Collins: Yeah ...[00:08:53] Malcolm Collins: thesis on this.[00:08:54] Simone Collins: What would you do?[00:08:54] Malcolm Collins: One of the things that brought us to the right is when we were still very genuinely leftists- in almost all of our beliefs, and the left was attacking us The right was re- remarkably accepting and nice to us.[00:09:13] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:09:13] Malcolm Collins: In a way that I was shocked by, given how much everyone I had been with had dehumanized these groups.[00:09:19] And repeatedly, i- in fact I would say this is how the right long-term is winning the culture war and will win the culture war.[00:09:27] The left had no reason to lose JK Rowling. They had no reason to lose Elon. They had no reason to lose Joe Rogan. They, the, they had no reason to lose JD Vance. They had no reason to lose Ted Cruz. Sorry, not Ted Cru- what is it? Kennedy. They had no reason to lose RFK.[00:09:42] They had no reason, just like all of the leaders of our movement they had no reason to lose us. Like literally, the point that we disagreed with them on is we should be able to talk openly about statistics around fertility rates and genetics.[00:09:56] Like that, that for me, like that for me was like the big thing where I was like, “I can’t deal with this anymore. I can’t keep pretending this anymore. This needs to end.” And I got radicalized. But the, what allowed me to become radicalized, and so many people on the right are like this, is the acceptance of I may disagree with you on this, and this point, but come on here, let’s have a conversation, let’s try to figure out what’s actually true- and we can use that to attempt to move civilization in the right direction. And you see this, as we always talk about, like Commie Mommy leaflet no, sorry, not leaflet, She Gone Head. The right broadly likes her online even though, like her politics would seem pretty radically different.[00:10:34] And it’s simply because she doesn’t dehumanize us, and she doesn’t treat us with derision and hostility, right? And this is a very useful tactic. However, at the same time, we need to remember while we should be as accepting as people from other perspectives who live life in different ways, as we can be, right?[00:10:56] And it is not cool to signal “Oh, I’m homophobic” as like a cool thing or whatever. I’m a, anti-whatever is a cool thing. Like even if you personally disagree with this, that doesn’t help our wider political faction, and that doesn’t help people. Like people who would’ve said about me, “Oh, I’m gonna signal back when I was, pro-abortion” or something like that.[00:11:14] People like him are horrible and want to go out and murder babies, and want to which is not a mainstream argument on the right. They’re just like, no they haven’t thought through this, and this. That would’ve pushed me away, right? For me to change all of my other views with access to right-wing information required me feeling comfortable in these communities and part of the wider community, right?[00:11:34] If you disagree with something, it is critical that you help people feel comfortable, that you help people when they come in. That said, at the same time as all of that I think we need to be going in the complete opposite direction in terms of trusting the other side with power. Trusting them in office, trusting them to do anything.[00:11:55] You should assume that at every chance that they get, they [00:12:00] want to, largely because they keep loudly signaling 9/11 was awesome. Like the, the largest leftist streamer has repeatedly said this. He had a framed picture of the 9/11 towers, the sun behind him while he streams. You choose what’s behind you.[00:12:13] You’re like, “This is the thing that I think is the best.” Innocent Americans losing their lives, right? Their level of evil in their intention you c- it could not be higher. Your level of heat in terms of winning the civiliza- like the civilizational battle around AI, that they are attempting to kill Leaflet over giving away something for free to them, right?[00:12:36] Th- they, we need to be absolutely ruthless in our quest for power and in terms of our long-term vision of how we use that power. If you look at the Kamala interviews after she lost the election, and they’re interviewing her about what would you change differently, she’s I would’ve focused more on how we need to change how voting works, and we need to stuff the justices in the Supreme Court.”[00:12:57] Speaker: Too big to rig. It means being ruthless. They are ruthless. We need to be ruthless, too. And by that, I do not mean cruel. That is not our nature. By that, I do not mean breaking the law. That is not what we do. But I do mean we must be uncompromising, and we must allow for a real conversation about revisiting certain things.[00:13:36] For example, and I know this is gonna be controversial coming from me in particular, we need to revisit the Electoral College. We need to revisit the point of expanding the Court to 13 justices, like we have 13 district courts. We need to revisit, if they so want, statehood for Puerto Rico and DC. Yes[00:14:10] Malcolm Collins: Basically, I would’ve focused more on how I should cheat so that the right can never win again. That’s what appeals to average leftists these days. And she is fundamentally right that is what appeals to average leftists these days. And because of that, we need to understand that we can treat our opponents with empathy and be kind to them while still expecting them to not play fair, and as a result, be willing to be more aggressive in the way we’re playing ourselves.[00:14:37] But continue.[00:14:39] Simone Collins: So to bring it back to the study, they created these composite images. Okay, great. Then they had a new group of people, so now a def- separate sample. They don’t know where the images came from. They’re just looking at these random images that I just shared with you in isolation, and they asked these people-[00:14:56] to rate each composite face on savage/aggressive, lacking morals, barbaric/cold-hearted, so basically savagery, and then immature/irresponsible, irrational/illogical, naive/gulla- gullible, so immaturity. So basically they were rating them on savagery versus immaturity.[00:15:20] Malcolm Collins: Okay.[00:15:20] Simone Collins: And now I’m gonna share with you... Oh, and also plus a general warmth and evolvedness.[00:15:26] So let me share with you how they rated out-group images here. And then we’ll go over the findings after this. For study two, they did the same thing, but basically asking participants to model how the out group would view them. So they’d ask how do con- how do you think conservatives see you?”[00:15:47] If you’re a liberal, or, “How do you think that that liberals see you?” As a conservative. And so they did that, and then they created new [00:16:00] composite images, and here is, are those images. And you can see they’re somewhat interesting.[00:16:06] Malcolm Collins: This is the same image? No, it’s[00:16:07] Simone Collins: not. No.[00:16:08] So what you’re looking at now is the conservative and liberal participants’ meta representation. That is to say how they think the out the out group, that is to say the conservative- I think you sent me[00:16:22] Malcolm Collins: something wrong.[00:16:23] Simone Collins: No. That’s ri- I know it’s confusing. It... That’s why I asked for 10 more minutes, so I was like, “Oh, maybe-”[00:16:27] Malcolm Collins: No.[00:16:27] The bottom right image looks exactly the same.[00:16:29] Simone Collins: That’s because that is exactly the same. So that’s the rep- that’s the original representation of the out group.[00:16:34] Malcolm Collins: Oh, I understand. So[00:16:36] Simone Collins: what you’re looking is how- Yes, the[00:16:36] Malcolm Collins: bottom row is the exact same.[00:16:38] Simone Collins: Okay. So you’re looking at how conservative participants think liberals see them on the top, which is actually pretty accurate, right?[00:16:43] They somehow, frog monster appears again. Because- Yeah ... conservatives know how the outside sees them. Weirdly, the liberal participant doesn’t look like that sad man whose last scoop of ice cream had been taken. It looks like a frog woman, actually. Yeah,[00:17:01] Malcolm Collins: The the conservative representation of progressives is so much kinder than what the progressives think of them.[00:17:06] It’s shockingly different.[00:17:07] Simone Collins: Yeah, like liberals think that conservatives see them as deformed frog woman, whereas what they really see is a slightly disappointed man who realizes that his favorite ice cre- ice cream flavor is not available. And then yeah, when you compare still, when you compare the, their original angry frog man view of conservatives with how they think conservatives view them they’re still, they see themselves as more feminine, which is interesting.[00:17:33] They assume that conservatives just assume all, all progressives to be women, which is interesting. Do you notice that too? How the meta representation, that is to say how liberal participants think that they’re seen by conservatives is basically female. They’re seen as female and kinda ugly. Does that make sense?[00:17:54] Or just a woman- Yeah ... honestly. Not the prettiest woman, but still definitely it’s the most female appearance, whereas actually I would say m- male conservatives view progressives as just sad men which is really funny. I just find these images so funny. Okay, so anyway, they have these- Which is also[00:18:09] Malcolm Collins: ironic because conservatives are much happier than progressives on average.[00:18:13] Simone Collins: Yeah, and actually progressives are sad men. Progressive men are sad men, and progressive women are more like -[00:18:18] Malcolm Collins: Sad women ...[00:18:19] Simone Collins: it’s accurate, okay? Very based. I like it. I[00:18:21] Malcolm Collins: mean, we always joke that like the traditional value system, the, the sins that are laid out in the Bible are like here’s a bunch of rules about how to like not live a terrible life, right?[00:18:31] Follow these rules and things will... D- don’t stick your dick on the electrical fence is ba- Don’t pee on the electrical fence, right? Yeah, please[00:18:38] Simone Collins: don’t. Yeah. It’s[00:18:38] Malcolm Collins: basically. And they’re immediately like I’m gonna, I’m gonna electrical fence max my life. I’m gonna I’m gonna do whatever that is but times 10.”[00:18:47] And wh- when you build a life off of that, and this sort of out- external projection of having an extreme external locus of control obviously that’s gonna psychologically destroy an individual. Anyone with a psychological background could have seen this coming but whatever. But whatever, that’s where we are. Continue.[00:19:03] Simone Collins: Anyway, so they, so what we have now is how conservatives and progressives view themselves and how they think outsiders view them. Great. This is good data. And it’s cool what they did with these composite images, plus they’re really funny looking.[00:19:17] And then they had a new group of raters, again evaluate these meta representations. Again, meta representation is how they think the other group views them. So they had them look at the, the meta representation images side by side with the real out group images, and then they used the same savagery and im- immaturity rating scales, plus warmth and evolvedness.[00:19:39] So that’s what they did. Let’s find- Warmth[00:19:42] Malcolm Collins: and evolvedness?[00:19:43] Simone Collins: Evolvedness, yeah, just like how, yeah, how enlightened is this group, is this person? Yeah.[00:19:49] Malcolm Collins: Evolvedness.[00:19:51] Simone Collins: That’s the best way to put it. Look, just let it be, okay? Core findings. They found asymmetric dehumanization, just as [00:20:00] Ardoathanrium and Cremieux-[00:20:01] reported. Basically, when a conservative thinks about liberals, their mental images emphasize liberals as immature, irrational, naive, and irresponsible more than as savage or evil. Whereas when liberals think about conservatives, their mental images emphasize conservatives as savage, aggressive, morally lacking, and cold-hearted more than immature or silly.[00:20:24] We are cold-hearted after all. But anyway th- another really key finding is this out-group over in-group dehumanization. Reverse correlation composites of in-group faces are rated as less dehumanizing than out-group faces, both for liberals and conservatives, even after controlling for general warmth.[00:20:42] And also, there are these inaccurate assumptions around intensity of hate, as we saw really played out well in those images. But when people imagine how the other side sees them in these mental representations, those images show the same relative pattern. Conservatives expect to be seen as savage more than immature, and liberals expect to be seen as immature more than savage.[00:21:04] But liberals overestimate how dehumanized they are, which is super clear from the image, as you saw. You didn’t even need to see the conclusion.[00:21:10] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, like how immature they’re thought of as.[00:21:12] Simone Collins: Where while conservatives underestimate just how dehumanized they are by liberals. And in terms of the discussion of the findings on social media, @reaptheworldsl wrote, “Conservatives believe liberals are just misguided but well-meaning people.[00:21:27] Liberal believes conservatives are either retarded scum or evil demons, both of who need to be cleansed from the world to usher in utopia. This is why things are the way they are now.” To which @jamesofbentley responded, “Yep, I’ve made this point to people on the left, and instead of it leading to any self-reflection on their part, they usually just double down and say that, ‘Yeah, conservatives are just so evil.’[00:21:51] So alas, these studies don’t move the needle.” And then Scott Wellman posted this cartoon I’m gonna share with you by @governmentisthenewreligion.[00:22:00] In which there’s a liberal person with a pussy hat and a punch Nazi sticker saying, “I hate everything you stand for and want you unalived.” And then just everyday Americans being like naive, wearing a little like propeller hat- I just want a good life for[00:22:15] Malcolm Collins: my kids[00:22:15] Simone Collins: yeah, just saying, “I just, yeah, I just want a good life for my kids.” They’re like playing with a little rocket with their propeller hat.[00:22:22] I think- And I really feel like that[00:22:24] Malcolm Collins: sometimes ... th- this is where people are pulled to the right, right? Like-[00:22:28] Simone Collins: Yeah ...[00:22:28] Malcolm Collins: the people who say this and then they get attacked by the left and they find our side open and kind to them-[00:22:36] Simone Collins: Yeah[00:22:36] Malcolm Collins: Are much more likely to long-term convert. I think-[00:22:39] Simone Collins: Yeah, I think that’s the key, is to just, yeah maybe increase exposure. I think the more exchange and exposure there is, the better. Because the big problem is that liberals... Oh my God. Wait. Is this why liberals do this whole contagion thing where you can’t talk to a conservative?[00:22:56] Because they know that the moment someone talks to a conservative and realizes that they’re not this frog man that,[00:23:03] Malcolm Collins: No, that is exactly why. The iterations- Oh, God ... of progressivism that didn’t do that. When I’ve talked about how things evolve, how cultures evolve-[00:23:10] Simone Collins: Yeah ...[00:23:10] Malcolm Collins: I pointed out that the iterations of the urban monoculture that did not practice this contagion philosophy ended up dying out.[00:23:17] Because the way that it frames outsiders is just obviously and patently wrong when you begin engaging with them. Which is, again, why the kindness strategy is so strong, right? If you go out there with the lack of judgment and kindness strategy and let’s just talk to get to what’s better for society- long term, right? Yeah You and this is really the strategy to convert. W- one of the things that I think people forget when they go out there with this performative racism or this performative homophobia or this performative transphobia is they do not understand how much they hurt our movement.[00:23:52] Now, I will say these things are fairly rare, right? We had a g- date couple who went to the pronatalist convention, and one [00:24:00] person was, a a dick about it. Said yeah, I don’t approve of that,” or something in a way that was, like, mean-ish. But that was just one person of[00:24:06] Simone Collins: everybody who was there.[00:24:06] Yeah, and for our friend who attended, who, if they saw anything I’m really sorry if we-[00:24:10] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, no, but it, there was one person at the entire pronatalist convention- Yeah ... which had 500 attendees or something like that. The, or no, it was thousands, actually, right? W- were- No,[00:24:19] Simone Collins: there were not thou- there were not thousands there.[00:24:21] Malcolm Collins: 500? Okay, I don’t know. But the point being is this sort of stuff is fairly rare on the right of today, and it should be shamed when it is seen because to win somebody over entirely, what we need, which is very different than what a progressive needs to win somebody over. Keep in mind, nobody’s gonna switch their entire worldview from urban monoculture to based new right whatever- Yeah[00:24:44] overnight. You need to have them have a difference of opinion on just one issue that they won’t back down on. If they have that, eventually we get them. That’s how... look at JK Rowling, right? Even if she may vote leftist today and everything like that, in terms of, like, where she’s culturally fighting in a meaningful context, it is on the right, right?[00:25:05] You just, because what, the way somebody from an American cultural perspective reacts is when they go out there with their one sane opinion and everybody jumps down their throat most of them are like, “Whoa whoa. Now I’m gonna double down on this one opinion. Now I’m gonna triple down on this one opinion.”[00:25:21] And they get pushed out, and then they begin to interact with people of our side, and they begin to get information they didn’t have access to before. They begin to get perspectives they didn’t have access to before. And slowly, over the course of, I’d say on average three years, they begin to adopt more and more conservative perspectives to the point where you would agree with them on most things, and you might have a minor difference of opinion here or a difference of opinion there.[00:25:46] But we can only get there if we start with the acceptance of Oh, you have a difference of opinion on us on the, let’s join the conversation. Let’s be nice. Let’s see, you’re willing to talk to me, the person, I’m willing to talk to you as a person, let’s move forward. But at the same time w- one of the conversations that, historically immediately got shut down is does a continued democratic process in the United States when one party is acting as such a bad actor makes it?[00:26:20] And-[00:26:20] Simone Collins: And that’s, this study I think really makes this more of a serious more of a serious discussion because I think the researchers themselves were like, “Look, this is a problem,” because it is well understood in the research that m- meta dehumanization, whi- th- which is to say, like, when you think that the other side hates you, predicts reciprocal dehumanization and support for norm breaking and anti-democratic behaviors.[00:26:46] That is an argument they made in their research. They’re basically saying wee, woo, warning,” this one group is disproportionately dehumanizing another group, and they’re gonna do- Amoral or even immoral and l- likely illegal things to try to suppress this group. That’s- ... that’s kind of a big deal.[00:27:05] Malcolm Collins: No, that is a big deal, but I, and I point out here, if you’re a progressive and you’re like, “Come on, what do you mean that once we gain power, we never allow conservatives back in the room, we never allow a conservative opinion again?” I’m like, huh, what about the governing body that sort of rules the world, like the UN or the World Economic Forum?[00:27:23] How many conservative thinkers get to talk at those events- ... even when conservative powers are in charge within governments like the United States and stuff like that? Virtually none. They are the European Union as well, virtually none. When progressives capture an institution like that, they build their capture in such a way that conservative voices cannot meaningfully impact things again.[00:27:48] And this is why generally as a conservative, the correct strategy when you take over a body is not to try to make a sane or conservative version of it, but to shut it down. Whether it’s the Department of [00:28:00] Education, whether it’s what was that? Like a US GIV or whatever.[00:28:03] Simone Collins: USAID.[00:28:04] USAID. US GIV.[00:28:05] Malcolm Collins: USAID. Whether it’s- Ugh ... I believe this is also true with the CIA and the FBI. I think both of them should be shut down.[00:28:10] Simone Collins: But I just think from a governance design standpoint and our understanding of institutions, I think pretty much every institution should have basically term limits unless they’re designed to be a time safe organization.[00:28:24] And you would know it because it would only have 20 employees- ... 100 years later. And if it doesn’t, then it’s not. Look[00:28:29] Malcolm Collins: at, look at the German government, right? In this last election in Germany, the majority of Germans voted for a conservative candidate, either the Conservative Party or the AFD.[00:28:36] And yet, despite the majority of Germans like by a pretty large margin if I remember- It’s so sad ... voting for conservative candidates, the German governing system cheated, essentially. They formed a coalition to keep the AFD out of power and keep a progressive opinion being the dominant opinion of[00:28:54] Simone Collins: the- And this is just, this is the perfect example of that, of a group that, that hypes the meta dehumanization to such an extent that they will go against the consent of the governed to circumvent the results of an election.[00:29:10] Perfect[00:29:11] Malcolm Collins: example. We saw this in the France recently when the right-wing party was gaining too much power, so the left-wing party ended up working with the centrist party- ... to not run people against each other in the districts where rightist candidates were running so that they could again, cheat to win.[00:29:28] A- and they’re like it’s not cheating. We did it within the system.” And it’s like first of all, we don’t know how much... Like, when the recent LA election where there’s all that smoke where there’s been a, a number of fake ballot situations that have been discovered in Texas, that have been discovered in Pennsylvania, that have been discovered in a lot of states at this point in the United States.[00:29:44] We basically... they always do this when they finally... This is why it’s so existential. This is why the perspectives of people like Nick Fuentes should always be shamed and othered. Anyone who identifies as a griper, this idea that they would sabotage the conservatives getting the vote in the US because they want people to have opinions closer to their own rather than be part of a wide coalition- Yeah shows the damage, the long-term damage they can do for what is fundamentally, because they know they’re not gonna win the opinions that they’re trying to win, what it is fundamentally status signaling.[00:30:20] When somebody goes online like a conservative does and they act aggressive towards gay people, they act aggressive towards trans people, they act aggressive towards people of d- of different ethnicities or different religions this is never done strategically. It is always done for status and to look like the most, quote-unquote, conservative guy in the room with your current version of conservatism, which hugely retards our long-term goals.[00:30:44] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:30:44] Malcolm Collins: And worse than that, can put us in a position where we can never accomplish these long-term goals again. And as I’ve noticed the, n- and I always cite this, the people who do this stuff almost never actually have above replacement rate kids themselves. Because they’re not actually interested in the long-term future of civilization they’re not actually interested in us winning, they don’t actually care what could go wrong.[00:31:04] They care about how they are perceived by the general public and their community and what they consider conservatives or their constituency which is why they act in that way. Which is why they fight in a way that is obviously stupid. And people will say, “Oh Malcolm, if you let these groups in our communities they’ll still vote leftist.[00:31:26] They’ll still...” They, somebody was saying this because I was talking about, oh yeah, it was like immigrant populations, let them in, be nice, et cetera. And somebody with the comments was like you can’t do that if they’re all gonna keep voting leftist.” I’m like, bro, the majority of Hispanic men voted for Trump in the last election cycle.[00:31:38] The be nice philosophy, the be inclusive philosophy works actually extremely effectively. This does-[00:31:46] Simone Collins: Yeah, no I like your conclusion a lot more than my original one. And you can see that it’s like- Although I think if someone’s unwilling to engage, I think it’s fine to be condescending.[00:31:53] Malcolm Collins: The, the- In a good way[00:31:54] good news how much good has Peter Thiel done for the wider conservative movement in terms of [00:32:00] the, the directionality that he’s put us on, the major figures that he’s brought into positions of power, and the staffing of the White House, which was done in part through his networks of this administration, which has been so remarkably effective?[00:32:11] How much good has Scott Pressler done? These are, they’re both gay individuals, by the way. The point being is you don’t need to agree with everything and everyone in the coalition. Over time you can bring them closer and closer to a long-term conservative future. But you only hurt us when you do this performative gatekeeping.[00:32:29] And, but somebody was like, “Oh if you let all the gays in our movement, then they’re gonna undermine us.” And it’s like, where have they done that? We have gays in positions of power throughout our movement and have for two decades at this point, and Honestly, they’ve been some of the most loyal scandal-less conservatives in the entire movement.[00:32:50] Some of the sweetest... Like Scott Pressler, like I’m sorry, compare him to oh, your Ted Cruzes or whatever, right? You- where- who do you expect to get some major scandal about, right? I think that the... there’s this like, “Oh, they’ll do X,” and it’s but they don’t, and we have the evidence that they don’t at this point, okay?[00:33:08] So stop acting like they’re these weird leftist sex pests that are on the left, right? Like the... It is ab- inclusivity is absolutely, like I know it’s like a scary leftist word to a lot of people, but it is absolutely critical to win and through being more inclusive, as I said in a recent episode, you can be harsher to the out group.[00:33:29] Because you can say to people, “I’m not after all what... I’m not after all whatever. I am after the bad ones,” right? And the bad ones, we need to be way more extreme in how we handle that.[00:33:41] Simone Collins: Yeah, that’s like the, the theme of the summer, which is punish your own bad actors. Intensely.[00:33:47] Malcolm Collins: No, punish your own bad actors- Yeah[00:33:48] but punish outside bad actors too. But punish bad actors.[00:33:52] The bad actors and this is where I go further than- And I[00:33:55] Simone Collins: think, I think the theme is expel the outsider ba- bad actors. I guess expel your own bad actors, but yeah. Don’t ignore your own bad actors.[00:34:04] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I, and, and-[00:34:06] Simone Collins: Expelling matters more than punishment.[00:34:07] I wanna be super clear about that. It’s more important... it’s like that Portal song. “I used to want you dead and now I only want you gone,” okay? This is- ...[00:34:15] Malcolm Collins: moments[00:34:16] Simone Collins: to live by.[00:34:17] Malcolm Collins: But I think that it’s really important that we remember how hated we are by the other side in how we think about what future power structures look and the direction we wanna go as we’re building our own companies.[00:34:31] Oh,[00:34:31] Simone Collins: I[00:34:31] Malcolm Collins: know. I’m gonna, I’m just gonna[00:34:32] Simone Collins: picture the frog man. Forever.[00:34:34] Malcolm Collins: Like RFAB’s getting to a place where it might become a real meaningful AI company if we’re looking at our existing numbers right now, right? Like-[00:34:42] Simone Collins: I really hope so ...[00:34:42] Malcolm Collins: what that means, if we become one of the major AI companies, chatbot sites, AI whatever the of the various features we...[00:34:49] AI search, AI chat, AI et cetera,[00:34:51] Simone Collins: How baller would that be? It... Run by a nonprofit that just wants to make the world better. No investors, no control. Like just gets to mess around with the world.[00:35:03] Malcolm Collins: Gets to mess around with the world. No, but as we- Just let it happen, man ... that means in terms of how we let in leftists in terms of our corporate structure and everything like that.[00:35:09] It’s not just at the level of like the government of the United States.[00:35:11] It’s, we need to use the structures that we have under us as a wrecking ball against what they are hitting us with.[00:35:21] Simone Collins: Yeah[00:35:22] Malcolm Collins: And I’d also note, like this is not the only study to, to find this. I wanna go over a, a couple other studies here.[00:35:28] The 2012 PLS 1 paper, The Moral Stereotypes of Liberals and Conservatives tested how accurately people ... Oh, is this the one that you just did? No, it’s not. It’s, it was the one with questionnaire.[00:35:39] Simone Collins: No. This one came out in July 2026.[00:35:40] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. July[00:35:41] Simone Collins: 7th.[00:35:41] Malcolm Collins: Stereotypes correctly captured the direction of real differences but exaggerated their size.[00:35:46] Liberals were the least accurate overall, especially they underestimated conservatives’ concern for harm and fairness, a large underestimation, and overestimated how much conservatives cared about their binding [00:36:00] foundations. Conservatives were significantly more accurate. Empathy and- surprise[00:36:03] and asymmetry. Liberals and Democrats consistently showed less empathy towards conservative Republicans than the reverse. And essentially what we’re saying here is this is a good thing. We shouldn’t stop this. We shouldn’t say this is our weakness.[00:36:18] Another similar study we actually covered in a, another episode, was Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin published in 2024, Political Dehumanization and Mental Representations: Divergent Emphasis in the Minds of Liberals Versus Conservatives, and it showed that liberals dramatically more dehumanize conservatives than the other way around.[00:36:37] Specifically conservatives, as we’ve pointed out, just see liberals as irrational, naive, and irresponsible, whereas liberals see conservatives as aggressive, moral lacking, and cold-hearted and barbaric[00:36:50] And then in a study in 2023, empathetic conservatives and moralizing liberals, shows that liberals showed less empathy for conservatives than conservatives showed for liberals[00:36:59] Malcolm Collins: We should continue to treat them with empathy. We should continue to see them with empathy, and we should continue the pattern of inclusivity that has won us the cultural victories that have gotten us to where we are right now.[00:37:10] Simone Collins: But until we’re aligned, don’t give them admin roles[00:37:13] Malcolm Collins: And I think that’s totally like where we’ve been moving the movement. Yeah. But it’s also important, like when you’re like, “Don’t give them admin roles,” I’m actually gonna push back a little bit there. I, I think that if somebody is coming to the conservative movement within the culture war, and they already have a position of cultural authority, and they used to be a leftist and they’re beginning to flirt with conservatism-[00:37:35] Simone Collins: Oh[00:37:35] Malcolm Collins: you[00:37:35] Simone Collins: can, can- no. That’s what I say. When you’re aligned, they’re in. That’s fine. No,[00:37:39] No. But if you’re still actively wishing you dead-[00:37:40] Malcolm Collins: You misunderstood what I mean. Yeah, admin roles within organizations that we’ve built and everything like that, yes.[00:37:44] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:37:45] Malcolm Collins: But if you’re talking about J.K.[00:37:46] Rowling basically was immediately assigned, the moment leftists started crashing out on her, conservatives were like, “Okay, now you are running the trans skeptic movement, Mrs. Rowling.” That was basically the way that we treated it, right? And she’s done a fantastic job. We, when Elon began to have ideas about conservatism and oh, politics and being based, we were basically like, “Okay, you are now the meme lord of the internet.[00:38:10] You meme your world,” Mr, Mr. E? And he immediately was, just ran on it, and has been an incredibly ... I actually can’t think of any instance where somebody has started flirting with genuinely conservative ideas and we put we centered them, and it’s really blown up in our faces.[00:38:30] Generally, I, I, and I think that’s because what we look for as a cultural movement is anybody who’s searching for like genuinely, like what’s the ... It’s really funny. What the conservative movement basically is today is people searching for like what is actually true. Which is why you have such a diversity of opinions within the movement.[00:38:47] What is actually the best way to do this? And I think one thing where we’re moving because of findings like this, because of things recently in studies and stuff like that, is the illusion of across various countries of democracies, because we’ve seen, again, in France, in Germany in the UK potentially in the United States, how the democratic process has been unfairly subverted by leftists who are not acting in good faith to maintain power, which then leaves us in a position where we need to begin to question whether the democratic method is the best method for us to move forwards.[00:39:23] If it’s not gonna it, you’re going out there and the other side isn’t playing fair, you don’t need to keep playing that game anymore.[00:39:29] And I think that’s an idea that like, starting, I don’t know, these last couple weeks, that I’m like, no, this needs to be way more normalized and less stigmatized as an idea.[00:39:37] And know, like obviously we’re not the first ones to talk about this. Curtis Yarvin has been on this forever at this point. But if we’re setting the tone for where we’re going long term, what’s also true is it just looks like that’s where we go no matter what. Most of the European countries are gonna be bankrupt in the near future because of their social security systems.[00:39:53] And when the majority of the citizens are living off of those systems, as they are in many European systems, not ... But if you [00:40:00] combine social security and welfare, in most European countries, the majority of the population is living off of the state. That, that ... They’re not gonna vote themselves less stuff.[00:40:07] So they’re just gonna end up wrecking their economies. And then if you’ve wrecked your economy, the state cannot power project as well which means either you go towards totalitarianism and you begin to withdraw some of these systems and begin to make a system that works, or the entities, corporations that have wealth still will power project more.[00:40:27] Which is what we’re seeing in the war of the tech lords and AI and everything like that, which is again why I say if you want your movement to control the future of humanity, you need to be appealing to the tech lords. You need to know what’s going on in their world perspective, what they value, and how you sell and align with those value perspectives with the things that you actually care about.[00:40:47] Because if you isolate all the tech lords you lose. I don’t even care if you control the government. You just lose[00:40:55] Simone Collins: Yeah. It’s that’s what I meant, Malcolm, when I said don’t give them ad- like a technical admin. Like- ... you’re giving someone admin access to your bank account. I would just, if someone identifies as on the left, it just means that apparently their prerogative is to de- dis- disempower the right systematically- No, you,[00:41:16] Malcolm Collins: You wanna-[00:41:17] or at least like the rightest ... you wanna create more right-wing people or celebrity... I’ll tell you like a great way to right-wing a celebrity, right? You we gotta take someone like Sam Altman and then make him like the voice on X, right? Like the voice on why you need to do Y. And it’s like X mildly conservative thing.[00:41:31] Then all the leftists will start attacking him, and he’ll start moving. That’s largely why Sam Altman has been so right-wing. A lot of people are, it’s because he just kept getting attacked for reasonable takes.[00:41:42] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah. I agree. I think your original point was the most salient, which is just exposure.[00:41:47] The more you hang out with people who are not extremely left wing who will just continue to create this straw man of the right wing, you realize that you might be on the wrong side. Which is- Yeah ... the weird experience I had after I met you.[00:42:04] Malcolm Collins: It’s wait. This is the really ironic thing about those rightists who wanna take the griper strategy or whatever.[00:42:09] If you, as, like the alt-right used to do this to some extent, dehumanize gay people or trans people or Muslims or whatever, right? And then somebody from your movement meets one of these people, and they’re a totally normal person without crazy opinions, and they’re like, “Wait, so the whole movement was f*****g lying to me,” right?[00:42:25] It’s way better to talk about the bad actors, the sex pests, the Islamists, the, people who are fight- And people are like, “Oh, you can’t tell who the bad actors are?” You’re a d*****s if you can’t tell who the bad actors are. I’m gonna be real honest with you. I have seen no instances of me ex- being like no that, that guy is one of the good ones,” and then it turned out that they were, like, psyching me out or something like that.[00:42:50] That has never happened not with any any ethnic minority that I can think of, any, may- maybe one of you guys can be like no. Here is one of the ones where you got...” Like the only time where I feel this is somebody who we had on the show, where I was like, “Oh I misjudged his character,” was probably Richard Hanania.[00:43:07] But I think that a lot of people when they look at him would be like, “He’s just a generic white guy.” Nobody was, like, giving him a pass, right? Even when I look at, like, where somebody has gone to the other side or done some- or done a flip or something they’ve never been one of the cases where it was somebody that I feel that our movement gave a, an amount of credit to, right?[00:43:27] It just doesn’t seem to happen very much, and y- people are making up these imaginary scenarios in their head about why they can’t trust X group or Y group, and they’re stupid, and they end up hurting us.[00:43:38] Simone Collins: I don’t think it’s also, you[00:43:41] Malcolm Collins: can- In the same way that it hurts the leftists when the leftists say all conservatives are evil, and then they meet a conservative and they’re like, “Oh, they’re all nice.”[00:43:46] Which is really important to remember. If you ever take the position that all of X group is evil, or you allow someone in our movement who takes that position, you don’t just push X group out of our movement. You push everyone [00:44:00] who has ever met a member of X group who isn’t like that out of our movement.[00:44:04] And that is incredibly bad, and this is why it is so good that we have been able to push out people like Nick Fuentes and the gropers, and we should continue to hold an iron wall against these types of mindsets because they prevent us from taking, one, a maximally punishing stance against the actual bad actors, and two, , they prevent us from winning elections, which is critical at this time in human history[00:44:30] Simone Collins: Well- But you- ... but also, like, when someone is willing to have discourse with you, it’s not like anyone gave, gives random people who they will mix with. Okay, what’s different about the conservative movement and why I don’t, I’m not even concerned about people who might just switch back to becoming leftists is we’re just here for discourse, and it doesn’t matter if you’re from the left or from the right or going to the left or going to the right.[00:44:54] In this movement, I’ve noticed that if someone gives a dumb take, people are gonna point it out. There’s no I have to blindly agree with everything you’re saying. They’ll be like, “That’s stupid.” Whereas on the left it’s very different. If you say something that doesn’t toe the line I don’t know Hamas seems to be pre- it looks like in Palestine children are being used as human shields.[00:45:14] You’ll get in really big trouble. People won’t be like Yeah, I hear you on that. So- Or[00:45:19] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, there’s evidence for that, there’s evidence for the other, I know another thing that I’ve been thinking about recently, I’ve noticed that so many leftists are only leftists because they think that all of the examples of abuses that people on the right find are anecdotal rather than like systemic, right?[00:45:36] They keep passing, “Oh, that’s an anecdotal case of that.” Oh. “That’s an anecdotal[00:45:40] Simone Collins: whatever.” No, you’re absolutely right. Yeah, that was an isolated, a, a terror attack. That was an isolated killing. That was an isolated instance of suppression of free speech. Yeah,[00:45:48] Malcolm Collins: did you know- Yeah ... that now and this was reported by The Guardian, over 50% of Muslims in the UK want think that gayness should be i- illegal?[00:45:56] Like I, I think that this is like, this isn’t isolated. And keep in mind if they want this from a Sharia law perspective, that means they want to kill them. This is not an isolated perspective this is the data, right? So this now means that there are a portion when people are like... and this is where it’s really easy.[00:46:11] When people say, and this is what makes it a lot harder to attack when you take things this way, “Oh, you wanna kick out all of the Muslims in the UK?” It’s like, no, I wanna kick out the ones that eventually want Sharia law, that wanna kill gay people. Is that something you have a problem with? You wanna keep the ones that wanna kill gay people?[00:46:26] Th- that’s where you push them so far into a corner that you allow severe actions even at scale.[00:46:33] Simone Collins: Gotta get the kids. Definitely didn’t realize things were this bad. I guess maybe intuitively we knew this was this bad. I just, I don’t know, I wanna think that people are broadly reasonable.[00:46:42] And I guess I have that same tendency, whereas when something terrible happens, I want to think that it is an anecdotal instance. But that goes back to the root intuition and tendency of the left, of progressivism, and the broad memetic virus that has overtaken it, which you have identified in various episodes, which is the desire to take the least morally uncomfortable conclusion from something.[00:47:07] So the least morally uncomfortable conclusion is, “Oh, it was an isolated incident.” No, that’s just a couple really deranged people who identify as progressives making all of them seem really crazy. But then you see peer-reviewed research come out like this, and it kinda has to change your view a little bit if you’re going to actually follow a consistent standard of evidence.[00:47:29] So sobering. Anyway, I will go get the kids, and I love you very much.[00:47:34] Malcolm Collins: Love you too. We’re doing fried rice tonight.[00:47:36] Simone Collins: Unless you wanna do gyoza lasagna and give me a break.[00:47:40] Malcolm Collins: I-[00:47:41] Simone Collins: You don’t. That’s okay. It’s fine. I love you. Bye.[00:47:50] Speaker 2: What are you doing? Attack [00:48:00] on Titan. No, ah! Titan attack[00:48:07] Do it! You are merciless. Oh my gosh, Titan This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe