] Malcolm Collins: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. The, the, the Luddite event turned into an explanation of how to build your own website?[00:00:11] That’s what they were doing? The Lud-[00:00:12] Simone Collins: They’re... Yeah, this is a little bit confusing. it’s kind of rich that many of these people who propose to be Luddites are like, “Well, this is all about human connection. I just wanna have real human connection.” When people have very real human connection online,[00:00:27] Malcolm Collins: , The person I talk to most other than Simone, is Leaflet. And you look at , the like, 10-hour conversations once every two weeks, right?[00:00:36] I would ask you guys, how many people in your life do you have that deep a conversation with I have never seen what Leaflet looks like in real life,, when we talk about, like, an anti-Luddite, they’re like, “Just get to know someone face to face.” I have never interacted once with Leaflet face to face, like, I ask you this sincerely, would , Leaflet and my friendship, be in any way meaningfully enhanced from a flesh to flesh conversation?[00:01:08] Would you like to know more?[00:01:09] Simone Collins: Hello, Malcolm. I’m excited to be speaking with you today because the Luddites are assembling once again, and you would never know it because you’re online and they’re not online.[00:01:19] And should we be worried? Let’s find out. But thankthanks to Wired Magazine being out there in, you know, walking around Brooklyn, we actually know about this because otherwise, how would we know? We wouldn’t know. Because- But[00:01:30] Malcolm Collins: yet they had to find... What I love about this article they wrote on this group, and if you’re unfamiliar with who the Luddites are historically, they are anti-technologists who do not like technology taking jobs.[00:01:41] Specifically, they wanted women in factories working on looms. Mm-hmm. That- that is- that is, they believe the natural role of a woman for all of human history is being in a factory and working on a loom. But they found this in a store. Like, in a human-[00:01:54] Simone Collins: Yeah, so I’m- I’m reading from the- the Wired article itself called Inside the Luddite Festival: Harnessing Gen Z’s Rage Against Big Tech.[00:02:01] Rage. That sounds ominous. The author says, “I found out about the event in a serendipitously offline way. Earlier in June, I was with a friend in the East Village, and we got caught in a summer downpour. As I was waiting it out in the Museum of Reclaimed Urban Space, a small venue that documents the neighborhood’s history of activism, I found the booklet covering the Summer of Ludd’s events among other zines, posters, and pamphlets.[00:02:26] So here I am, phone tucked away, notebook out, Playbill in hand,” ‘cause, of course, our tech author attended. She’s not[00:02:32] Malcolm Collins: allowed to use technology. But what, what’s crazier about this- She ... she, you and I w- haven’t been in the type of a venue where we could even presumably find an invitation to a group like this-[00:02:45] Simone Collins: Yeah[00:02:45] Malcolm Collins: probably in at least half a decade.[00:02:50] Simone Collins: I guess you’re right. Yeah, so we would never know. I mean, thank goodness, right? Thank goodness.[00:02:55] Malcolm Collins: I mean, they’re not, they’re not posting these at the local BJ’s or Walmart, so- Yeah. ... where else do we go?[00:03:01] Simone Collins: Yeah, well, I mean, I think you have to be like Victoria El- Elliot, the author of this article, walking around, you know, in sort of bougie places in New York City, and that’s actually a theme.[00:03:10] The more I dug into the modern Luddite movement, the more I discovered that- It’s, it’s kind of extremely bougie. Th- you know I[00:03:20] Malcolm Collins: would imagine it is.[00:03:22] Simone Collins: Yeah, it’s it’s, it’s very... This is in stark contrast to the original Luddite movement, which we’ll also just go over at the end to kind of see, like, okay, how are these different?[00:03:30] How are these the same? But-[00:03:31] Malcolm Collins: No, people with sh- to worry about in their lives have no reason to be doing this stuff. No, they’re like, you can’t do this whole, “Oh, I’m not gonna have a phone. I’m not gonna have a computer on me. I’m not gonna use AI.” W- and what I love is they’re not even just, like, anti-AI.[00:03:45] They’re anti the whole ecosystem.[00:03:48] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah. I, I felt like we had to cover this particular event, though, this, this Summer of Ludd again, because of the author’s description of it. Just another part of the article that I found very entertaining. “The Summer [00:04:00] of Ludd was preempted with a press conference conducted by the organizer’s spokesperson, Gowanus, the media puppet.[00:04:07] Yes, I am serious. A blue cloth being with soda cap eyes manned by a masked puppeteer. Gowanus was conceived of as a way for the movement to speak to the public and the media without compromising the identities of the event’s organizers, who wish to remain anonymous. According to Gowanus, New York’s Luddite renaissance is, quote, ‘A loose group of organizers that have no formal affiliation as of now, but have been coalescing around noticing similar problems of alienation and over-reliance on big tech,’ end quote.”[00:04:40] So, yeah, this... Basically, though, what, you know...[00:04:44] Malcolm Collins: Daddy’s five minutes.[00:04:44] Simone Collins: At any rate, I wanted to kick off with the Summer of Ludd as sort of our starting point here, because it’s seen as a cultural high point in the movements, specifically analog or and anti-alienation wing. And there are several wings to this, some of which bear more resemblance to the original Luddite movement, and some of which don’t.[00:05:02] But the Summer of Ludd-[00:05:02] Malcolm Collins: Anti-alienation wing? What... Tell me about this. What... Tell me about the wings. Can we s-[00:05:07] Simone Collins: Right. So the different wings are basically this sort of the anti- Hmm ... alienation wing is kind of like, “Well, we feel like social media has not been good for us. We don’t like scrolling on our smartphones.[00:05:18] We would like to performatively be offline,” and very prominently wave around our Moleskine notebooks and analog typewriters, et cetera and, and, you know, meet in clubs. I’ll talk about the clubs. Then there’s the anti-big tech and anti-AI data center agitators. We did a whole episode on the anti-AI center agitation, which is partially funded by outside players who would rather that y- the US not develop a strong AI infrastructure, but there’s also a lot of, I would say, homegrown.[00:05:50] Though, I don’t know, we’ll say, like, fertilizer has been added by outside parties but homegrown concern over data centers. But there are definitely reports of escalating tensions between this particular sect of, like, I guess you could say the modern lud- Luddite movement and Some more violent stuff, like the vandalism, sabotage threats, threats of violence.[00:06:18] I- you’ll recall that an Indianapolis city council member who supported data center development heard 13 shots fired outside his phone, and then when he... Or, of his home, and then when he opened his front door, there was a little note reading, “No data centers.” So people’s lives, it, it is insinuated that his life is being threatened by people who don’t want data centers, right?[00:06:40] So that, I, I think is the, we’ll say more, like, militant branch. But this anti-alienation branch has more to do with things like this festival, with various offline gatherings and events, and then also with basically school clubs. A, a lot of the original new organization that maybe started to trend in the media back in 2022, so this is not exactly brand new was associated with school clubs.[00:07:08] But back to the Summer of Ludd, just so, like, I can cover some of the more important details around that. It seems to be really centered around New York. I didn’t actually hear that much, weirdly, about successful Luddite movements, clubs, events, et cetera, outside of New York City, which is kind of weird as well.[00:07:26] And it’s, it’s actually still happening right now, Malcolm. If we wanted to just drop everything and drive to New York, we could probably attend some Summer of Ludd events. It finishes July 5th, and as of today, it is July 3rd. So-[00:07:41] Malcolm Collins: Second ...[00:07:41] Simone Collins: we could... Mm, no, it’s... Is it? My God, yeah. Okay, so we, yeah, we can we can go.[00:07:48] It’s centered around- What type[00:07:49] Malcolm Collins: of events? Well, I wanna hear about the wings, I wanna hear about the types of events. Yeah, like-[00:07:53] Simone Collins: Yeah, so the, it, it, it has over 120 free public participatory activities. There you can learn [00:08:00] saddle stitching, you can learn how to use a shortwave radio, you can learn, learn how to mend clothing also flirt and date offline.[00:08:08] They have talks and panels, like indie web alternatives privately owned public spaces fighting data centers. So there’s certainly, like, some confluence with the anti-data center protest movement. And also like, I described to you when we were talking earlier today, there’s a Google in real life session where you get to, like, talk to a human expert.. Right. So yeah, there was also that Q&A event where it’s just Google in real life. Like oh my gosh, what if you just asked someone? Except of course it’s not anywhere close to as good as Google, and certainly not as good as any AI search engine that- I[00:08:39] Malcolm Collins: love it that I hear the idea of somebody Googling something, and my thought now is, wow, that’s quite antique.[00:08:46] You know, that’s, that’s a little- Antique ... that’s a little dated. I know, that Google is[00:08:49] Simone Collins: antique[00:08:50] Malcolm Collins: You’re Googling? What, what AI are you using? Googling?[00:08:53] Simone Collins: Googling. Well, of course Google’s trying to serve up Gemini AI, AI answers to everything which people are really mad about, so they’re not even Googling anymore.[00:09:00] But anyway according to Gothamist, which talked about this a little bit as well, quote, “At a Monday panel, discussion on NYC event calendars, an array of neighborhood characters, older punks, “fresh-faced flip phone users, and various others packed at the stone steps of the East Village community garden, La Plaza Cultural, to discuss ways to learn IRL happenings, of IRL happenings without social media.[00:09:25] Overall, the evening was largely a technical discussion on how to build and maintain your own website or newsletter. It never got particularly ideolo- ideological.”[00:09:34] Malcolm Collins: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. The, the, the Luddite event turned into an explanation of how to build your own website?[00:09:46] That’s what they were doing? The Lud-[00:09:47] Simone Collins: They’re... Yeah, this is a little bit confusing. Yeah, a lot of it’s, it’s not actually about being a Luddite. What I’m discovering is that this sort of social element of the movement, they kind of just wanna go back to, like, late 1990s, early 2000s internet with flip phones and with just w- before this, the, the, any sort of social media feed, and not actually go offline, which is interesting.[00:10:12] But-[00:10:12] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it’s very interesting that they’re like, “All technology up to what I got comfortable with when I was a youth is bad.”[00:10:20] Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, I mean, as one person at, at the event put it, it’s not quite a digital versus analog thing. It’s a question of who controls how your community o- operates itself.[00:10:28] “It’s a Mark Zuckerberg or you thing,” explained Thomas. You’re not an idle passenger of history. You get to control the impact of your technology, that your technology has on you and your society. So what a lot of people are trying to do is take back sort of some level of sovereignty, which I think is not inherently bad.[00:10:44] I mean, it’s, it, it, it can be[00:10:46] Malcolm Collins: dangerous- Yeah, no, no. I mean, they, what’s interesting is that makes it a lot like our communities. We’re just a lot more, like- Practical? I mean, the Sky Brown Cinematic Universe, RFAB, which is basically a cinematic universe at this point. By the way, one thing I’ve started working on with RFAB, Simone- Yeah[00:11:00] Just in terms of new features building is a replacement for Descript, because I- Oh. You’ve been having- ... too frequently have issues with Descript Yeah. It’s a useful feature. I think Descript massively overcharges. If, if we did it, we’d be doing it at, like, one-tenth the cost of Descript and I don’t use the vast majority of Descript’s features[00:11:19] Simone Collins: Yeah, you just don’t want to use them.[00:11:20] So yeah,[00:11:21] Malcolm Collins: it would be- I really only need it for, for people who do not know, this is what we use to edit our videos, to automatically take out ums and stuff like that. And so what I would do with this system is use it to edit our videos, but also give it to you guys, so you guys can just, like, move text around and it’ll move around where it is.[00:11:36] Simone Collins: I think it’s a great idea. Yeah ... a, a lot of the organizations present just sound kind of like late ‘90s Seattle-style zines and fliers. So a lot of the orgs that were present when at least, I think, Gothamist was there covering one of the events, or NYC Off Tech, which just does events to connect outside of [00:12:00] big tech.[00:12:00] Like, it’s just dedicated to that. Unplatform, which is a guide to escaping social media. Redcal. And when you go to Redcal’s website, it’s just literally images of posters that people make. Like, the kind of wheat paste posters you might see put up in a city about events and concerts and stuff. Mm-hmm.[00:12:18] But it’s just a website of them. So just in case you’re not walking around the streets of New York City or Brooklyn, you can, you can go to Redcal’s- Wait- ... website to see. Red, how’s that[00:12:28] Malcolm Collins: spelled?[00:12:29] Simone Collins: Let me, let me just send you a link.[00:12:30] It’s cal.red. So pretty easy to type in. Okay, I see. But here’s a, here’s a link[00:12:39] Malcolm Collins: For the streets.[00:12:40] USA[00:12:41] Simone Collins: out of NY, adjacent Yeah, so you can see it’s just a series of the posters. It’s like, well, if I just wanted to see all the wheat paste posters in Brooklyn, I can just go to cal.red, which is not... I mean, like, so this is exactly what they’re talking about. Like, how do we be offline and not have online advertising and not post on Facebook, but still have people come to our events?[00:13:00] Which is, like, this really tough thing to do in modern society. So I do find that somewhat interesting from, like, a just purely logistical, how do we work this out st- standpoint. Then there’s also Moon Bulletin, which is just one person, I guess, talking about what they know is going on, and then also the People’s Circuit, which is this encrypted ProtonMail-based email newsletter.[00:13:19] So the big themes there are, like, I’m really concerned about Mark Zuckerberg knowing everything about me, and you know, I just hate these big tech companies and I don’t wanna be manipulated by social media, so here’s my attempt to live a different type of life. I like the intentionality of it.[00:13:33] Malcolm Collins: No, what’s so interesting about seeing this, and these types of events, and stuff like that is it reminds me of stuff I felt was, like, cool and subversive when I was younger, and I[00:13:45] Simone Collins: see- Yeah, some of it certainly looked like that, yeah[00:13:47] Malcolm Collins: like, a punk thing or, like, a goth thing. Yeah. And I would be like, “I wanna go to this cool subversive whatever.” And what’s wild is, like, now that’s the internet, right? Like- Mm-hmm ... to, to go to one of these you’re just gonna find a bunch of aging hipsters,[00:14:03] Simone Collins: Well, they said that all generations were there, that there were some aging hipsters, but there were also a lot of young people.[00:14:09] So- Hmm ... I, I think that that’s s- interesting[00:14:11] Malcolm Collins: I, I, I think there’s probably some, but yeah, yeah, I, I, I- No, no, no ...[00:14:16] Simone Collins: young people definitely outside Apparently, like, the early reports from this, from this event show that there’s been a lot of a lot, like, really good turnout at these events, a lot of Gen Z, a lot of locals, a lot of families, and then of course older activists too.[00:14:26] But I, what I think is more interesting is that the new Luddite movement in terms of, like, persistent ongoing social clubs is primarily, um is, is primarily Gen Z, but I think that’s because- This is the first generation that was raised as what people describe as, like, iPad babies where they, they actually don’t know what it’s like to be more offline, and when they describe these, like, revolutionary things that they’re doing to live more offline, it just honestly feels a little bit more like our lives.[00:14:56] Because we, we, we intentionally don’t, like, scroll media feeds. We don’t have TikTok on our phones, and, like, that’s kind of as far as they’re going. They’re like, “Well, I just think, you know, TikTok is bad.” Although they try to go a little further, though, you know, to mixed results.[00:15:09] Malcolm Collins: But basically- Yeah, just take down Trek Zone, man.[00:15:11] That’ll, that’ll get you off media feed ...[00:15:12] Simone Collins: no, for real, actually. But I just think that basically millennials and older can’t participate in this movement because they are, by probably kind of the, the standards of younger generations, actually Luddites. Like, actually terminally offline, which, which I think is also quite interesting.[00:15:30] But anyway, there’s this interesting New York Times piece called Now in College, Luddite Teens Still Don’t Want Your Likes. And it’s, it’s this fairly recent New York Times piece that is checking in on a bunch of Luddite teens who had a Luddite club who were first covered by The New York Times in 2022.[00:15:47] So this is four years later, and it’s checking to see, like, are they still offline, which I think is interesting. I, I like that they’re like, “Oh, how persistent is this? How committed are these people?” So most of the members, or at least former members, [00:16:00] still use flip phones and are still very, like, concertedly not online.[00:16:06] One teenage Luddite club in Brooklyn that The New York Times profiled in 2022 that, that really was highlighted in this article- Yeah ... quote, “Sketched and painted side by side, they read quietly, favoring works by Dosto- Dostoyevsky, Kerouac, and Vonnegut. They sat on logs and groused about how TikTok was dumbing down their generation.[00:16:26] The flip- their flip phones were decorated with stickers and nail polish.” Doesn’t that just sound like us as teens?[00:16:33] Malcolm Collins: Yeah.[00:16:34] Simone Collins: That’s just, just, that’s what’s so weird about it is, like, oh, the Luddites. Like, I pictured they’d be, like, weaving or something, but they’re, like, just behaving like we did. I’m like, hold on.[00:16:42] That’s like, I, I didn’t even get a flip phone until really late. So again, this is not what I expected to hear. But years later, most of the former members didn’t go back to, to more heavy tech, but one detracted at least. She wrote, “It’s constant access again. It, it’s the relief of knowing I can do things easier.[00:17:00] I got Instagram too, and it’s been nice re- reconnecting with people on it.” The point being, and I appreciate that she acknowledged this- Mm-hmm ... that when you choose to be offline, you’re just not going to see certain people again. You’re just not gonna communicate with certain people again. Like, it’s this concerted choice- To give up many relationships.[00:17:19] And I think it’s, it’s kind of rich that many of these people who propose to be Luddites are like, “Well, this is all about human connection. I just wanna have real human connection.” When people have very real human connection online, like this morning on Discord and WhatsApp, I had some very personal and deep conversations with people that I’d not, I would not have had if I was-[00:17:40] Malcolm Collins: Well, and what’s wilder is what the personal connections mean for people like us.[00:17:46] Like, the person I talk to most in our lives, other than Simone, is Leaflet. This is both on Discord and on our biweekly chats. And you look at the, the long communications I have with her. It’s this, like, 10-hour conversations once every two weeks, right? Yeah, on our stream. We’re hanging out at night.[00:18:03] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:18:03] Malcolm Collins: Drinking having fun, chatting about life, philosophy, everything under. It’s[00:18:07] Simone Collins: kinda, yeah, it’s like, it’s like a modern symposium, which is really, like, extra old school. Right. And yet super new school. But- So weird.[00:18:14] Malcolm Collins: I would ask you guys, anyone who has seen one of these, like, how many people in your life do you have that deep a conversation with or that deep of a friendship with, right?[00:18:26] That you’re having these really long-form conversations. I have never seen what Leaflet looks like in real life, okay? I, the person I’m interacting with, when we talk about, like, an anti-Luddite, they’re like, “Just get to know someone face to face.” I have never interacted once with Leaflet face to face, and I have no interest in escalating our relationship.[00:18:51] I, that has never been something that is of- Oh,[00:18:54] Simone Collins: you mean like, “We have to visit together. We have to go on a[00:18:57] Malcolm Collins: vacation together.” Yeah, we have to visit. If I drove by where she lived in Texas, I wouldn’t even, I, and she probably wouldn’t even envision- You wouldn’t[00:19:04] Simone Collins: stop. If you were, like, a mile away, you’d be like, “Meh.”[00:19:07] Malcolm Collins: Would our... And, and, and, and to our audience, like, I ask you this sincerely, would our friendship, Leaflet and my friendship, be in any way meaningfully enhanced from a flesh to flesh conversation? Would we know anything meaningfully additional about each other? I mean, maybe what they look ... Like they’re like deformed or been highly misrepresentative of themselves or something like that, but I don’t think they have been.[00:19:34] Like I would gain no additional nature to our friendship. The only thing that requires being in person with someone is having sex with them. And look at the way I interact with my wife on this very screen, right? Like we’re in different rooms. Even with your loved one, sometimes it can be more efficient to communicate with through a screen.[00:19:58] Are we not building our [00:20:00] relationship through conversations like this?[00:20:01] Simone Collins: For real. Yeah, and we, we act like we do it literally in separate rooms of our house. Those are our most effective[00:20:07] Malcolm Collins: conversations. Okay. But now imagine the Luddite, what they’re building in terms of a friendship. So they[00:20:11] Simone Collins: go- They have to sit out in a park you know[00:20:13] Malcolm Collins: They sit in a park-[00:20:14] Simone Collins: Talking[00:20:15] Malcolm Collins: and they awkwardly talk to somebody- About car wax ... who they met at a ... Do you think those conversations are going to be one, one-hundredths as deep as one of the conversations that Leaflet and I have over like 10 hours at midnight? Well, there, I[00:20:26] Simone Collins: bet many people offline have very deep conversations. But what[00:20:29] Malcolm Collins: I’m saying is- No, I’m not saying what the depth-[00:20:30] Simone Collins: the, the number of people you can, you can interact with and the types of people you can interact with are extremely limited when you choose to only interact with those whom you can reach in person[00:20:38] Malcolm Collins: But, but also the depth of the conversation is limited by the format. Mm-hmm. When you are, one, in a park, and two, have a tight time limit on your conversation, like an hour, an hour and a half, you’re just not gonna get to the same type of topics you get to in a 10-hour conversation that’s happening overnight while you’re both, you know, kind of out of it because you’ve been in, interacting for so long.[00:21:00] Yeah. The level of conversation that you’re going to get to ... And I often, the conversations that I have with people in person, especially the ones that, where I meet them in person, because you don’t know as much about their background, because you don’t know what’s gonna offend them, because you don’t know where to go, your conversations start at such a lower level, right?[00:21:18] Like Leaflet and my conversations can start at a very high level because both of us have watched a probably hundreds of hours of the other person’s content before that conversation even started.[00:21:30] Simone Collins: Right. This asynchronous relationship that people are able to have when they consume each other’s content or read each other’s messages asynchronously and then have live conversations, again, there’s this additional level of depth that you can have that you just can’t have otherwise I think.[00:21:44] Malcolm Collins: But it’s, it’s the irony of I don’t even know off the top of my head what her real name is. I do not know what she looks like,[00:21:51] and those things would not ... This is what gets me so much about these Luddites, is they are choosing a form of relationship which is strictly lesser The, the think about the conversations you have on a Discord, like our, our Discord, right?[00:22:08] Yeah. People are coming in after having watched a video and they are interacting with each other in a thread. So they’re having a conversation basically. Now, the depth that they’re gonna have in that conversation is going to be higher than any random conversation in a park because they’re coming into the conversation with a shared context, e.g.[00:22:27] we both watched the information in the video and are now conversing about the information in the video.[00:22:34] Simone Collins: Yeah. I think that’s interesting. What, what also, as I said earlier, stood out to me is that there is this strong undertone of privilege that pervades a lot of this. The, the people described and profiled when I read about this movement for example, o- of, of the alumna of, of this, this club, this this, this Luddite high school club that are now being interviewed later, like they’re all getting humanities degrees at fairly expensive schools, stuff that like implies they don’t actually need real jobs.[00:23:10] Like one is studying Russian literature at Oberlin College. This is not something that someone does if their family is of limited means. What are[00:23:18] Malcolm Collins: they going to do with their life?[00:23:20] Simone Collins: Like what- I don’t know, because they don’t use the internet. Actually, so the, the one who’s getting- Work at a[00:23:25] Malcolm Collins: f*****g bookstore?[00:23:26] Simone Collins: The one, no, the one who’s studying at Oberlin College actually is working for Light Phone, which as it happens, is one of the many companies that is capitalizing on the interest of this, this perf- What,[00:23:40] Malcolm Collins: what, what is... Oh, oh, Light Phone. Oh yeah, where it’s like a lighter... Yeah, but that’s not a terrible idea if you have like addiction problems.[00:23:46] Simone Collins: Yeah. It, it’s a minimalist device. It costs between $300 and $700, and there’s this whole collection of devices for people who want to develop more focus who are at like varying degrees of modern Luddite, I [00:24:00] guess you could say. So there’s also the Mudita Kompakt, K-O-M-P-A-K-T. That’s $399. It’s this e-ink screen device that, that has online...[00:24:11] It’s basically like a smartphone, but without any color. It has offline maps and basic apps. It’s, it’s a little bit more flexible than the Light Phone, and it, it I think it also costs... No, it’s three- $399. So it’s, it’s like kind of mid-range phone-wise. Mudita, by the way, really odd name. Mudita weirdly is, was the name of, When my, when one of my family members was a member of a cult, her name was Mudita in the cult which is interesting.[00:24:43] Anyway then there’s also the Minimal Phone, which is $449. It has an E Ink touch screen, touch, touch screen, touch screen. And it, it also has just a few Android apps. Then there’s the Punkt MP02, 02, which is almost $300, that is just a very minimal button phone. And then there’s, there’s a bunch of like this whole class of basically typewriter style word processors that are like tactile typewriters with E Ink screens that allow you to sync things that you’re writing, like books or transcripts or s- or plays to some kind of cloud account.[00:25:24] But they’re not connected to the internet, so you can’t start messing around online. But all of them are really expensive. They’re $500 to $1,000. And I, I wanted to just point out how expensive they were because You can just get a Razor flip phone for like 35 to $100 on eBay. I checked. Like, they’re, they’re extremely affordable.[00:25:45] So you can, you could very easily be more offline without buying expensive additional stuff. But I feel like it’s one of those ecosystems where, again, the, the, the point the, the young, the young woman getting this degree in Russian literature is now working during the summer at Light Phone but also, like, kind of not sure about getting an office job.[00:26:05] But like what is she gonna do then? She’s gonna end up marrying some guy working in AI-[00:26:10] Malcolm Collins: Exactly ... for her[00:26:11] Simone Collins: lifestyle. And I, I don’t know. I just feel like this is not gonna end very well. But then also, like, just this other sort of reference made offhand in the article, I’m gonna just quote from it, “Winter Jacobson, who was in town from Colorado to visit Ms.[00:26:23] Butler,” this was another one of the former Luddite Club members, “was sitting next to her. He started a Luddite club in Telluride High School last year. He said it had a dozen members.”[00:26:32] Malcolm Collins: Telluride, these kids are so posh.[00:26:34] Simone Collins: He says, “Colorado is very different from New York,” Mr. Jacobson, 17, said. “There’s not as much to do in Telluride.[00:26:41] People are reliant on their phones as their self-connection to the world.” Sorry, “As their connection to the world. So some of my friends think the club’s a joke. I’m still trying to spread the message, though.” Telluride High School. Tell us a little bit about Telluride, Malcolm.[00:26:55] Malcolm Collins: Telluride is probably, I think, one of the, like, richest communities on earth.[00:27:01] It is a beautiful place, though. I, I think one of the most beautiful places in the United States. Yeah,[00:27:05] Simone Collins: like if, if we could live there, we probably would, except I think the altitude’s hard on your lungs.[00:27:09] Malcolm Collins: I, I couldn’t be able to deal with the altitude. It would, it would cause too many health complications for me, but it’s a, a stunning place.[00:27:16] Simone Collins: Yeah. It has... It, it’s basically like this rich, rich person paradise where, like, you can just walk the streets, and kids just walk through, free through the streets and just wander around these beautiful creeks. There’s literally a gondola system that’s free to ride that connects Telluride with Mountain Village an adjacent small village.[00:27:39] It, it is one of the most idyllic and beautiful and privileged places in the entire world. Every every early September a bunch of celebrities descend upon the town for the Telluride Film Festival, and it’s just full of some of the most privileged, educated people in the entire world. And I think that just goes to show that like the one other city that’s mentioned where there’s a Luddite club, aside from [00:28:00] Brooklyn and, and New York City, you know, y- very, very wealthy place is freaking Telluride.[00:28:05] You know, the, the, the secret- like the Brigadoon of rich people. It’s, it’s just insane to me. So yeah, I, I just wanted to point that out. That and, like, all these sort of expensive devices that people are buying when I think what you should really think about is sort of contrast the way that, like, these people are so proudly going offline or like trying to deal with their internet addictions with how Mennonites do it.[00:28:30] And i- it’s not like there isn’t some precedent that modern people who are concerned about tech use can turn to because Mennonites have been dealing with this for a very long time. And according to mennonet.com, which is a thing, and it’s delightful, and it’s, has very, like, Craigslist styling but it is a website for Mennonite things.[00:28:52] Within Mennonite con- conservative circles and plain circles, you’ll see that the, the tools are just stuff that you would install on an Android phone. There are accountability apps. One is called Covenant Eyes, which is something that’s also used by evangelical communities, and also Cloud Veil.[00:29:11] They log activity or... and also are capable of filtering content. And they’ll send reports on accountability to, to a partner or a family administrator. So you had told me at one point you’d seen, like, Mennonites,[00:29:23] Malcolm Collins: Yeah,[00:29:23] Simone Collins: I,[00:29:23] Malcolm Collins: I quite like this technology. Yeah. I think it’s something that more people should use if you struggle with addictions to stuff online.[00:29:30] Simone Collins: Yeah, like your brother will be like, “Hey dude, I saw that you were on Facebook.” Like, that y- you’ll get that social shame from it. There’s also something called the Security Appliance, which is a content filtering solution developed for and by the Plain community which is used at the network level in some fellowships to restrict categories of sites and manage what devices- Mm-hmm[00:29:50] can access. So it’s, I think, similar to the kinds of controls that, say, a high school’s tech network will use in terms of allowing, like, what the laptops and phones on that system can use. And then there are other web filters like OpenDNS FamilyShield, and then just other ones that are out there that can be configured at home or on business Wi-Fi to block entire categories of content.[00:30:13] So if you don’t like Mark Zuckerberg ‘cause he’s watching your life, then you can just block Fa- like, there are, are very easy offline ways without buying- Mm ... some expensive phone when you could just get an Android phone for $100 or y- if you still want a smartphone, for example, that allow you to do this.[00:30:31] And then you can also just, ‘cause I just did this with an, an Android device that I’m sort of repurposing for, for our oldest son you can just set necessary apps on an Android phone or use something like Google Family Link, which I know is annoying you, but I’m still setting up the settings to, to set downtime schedules where, like, during these hours of the day you can’t use the phone, you can’t use the phone for more than two hours.[00:30:54] Like, it just literally shuts off, and then the person who is the admin on the Google Family Link can give you more time if they think you should have it, but it, they can cut you off like a bartender. So th- these are all super, like, you don’t need a special device for it, but this community feels like it performatively needs to.[00:31:12] But what I think is more meaningful is that- In Mennonite communities, there are just social norms around not taking out your phone in certain places. Like, a Mennonite would never go to church and pull out a phone because they know that they would be, like, socially ostracized for it. And I think just having those social norms is, is, is way more helpful than even using some kind of tech, if you know that you’re gonna be shamed.[00:31:35] And that is something at least that did really show up in the summer of Ludd in New York. It’s still, probably still showing up at these events, is that when people take out their phones, people see that they’re doing so with great shame, that the phones are, like, held really low. Like, you know when someone shamefully takes out a phone to, like, check something and they do that thing where, like- Yeah, yeah, yeah[00:31:50] they, they hold it at, like, hip level and they think that you can’t see. It’s like s- it’s the stupidest thing. It’s like when our kids play hide and seek and they’re, like, hiding under a table making eye contact but they assume that you can’t see [00:32:00] them. It’s like that.[00:32:01] Malcolm Collins: I love the, the, them wanting to play hide and seek and being the worst hiders in the world.[00:32:07] Simone Collins: It’s ... I know, man. Like, I think I need to-[00:32:09] Malcolm Collins: And they’re so excited to do it, too.[00:32:11] Simone Collins: Oh, yeah. Well, and then they’re like, when they find a good hiding spot and then you, you find them in it, they’re so delighted that they immediately wanna play another round, but then they just run directly to that same hiding spot.[00:32:22] Like, not clear on the concept, guys. Like, at what age do they figure this out? At any rate, Maybe[00:32:28] Malcolm Collins: our kids are just stupid.[00:32:29] Simone Collins: No, our kids are beautiful and wonderful, and I love them so much.[00:32:34] Malcolm Collins: I love you so much, Simone.[00:32:35] Simone Collins: I love you, too. The original Luddite movement, though, I wanna point out, is, like, so different from this.[00:32:41] Because one, these are working-class artisans who are deeply concerned about their jobs just being completely obliterated. It, it lasted very sh- it was very short, though. It, it went from 1811 to 1816. One of the reasons it was so short is that the stuff they did was super violent and illegal and harmful and damaging and even a guy was killed at one point.[00:33:04] So i- in addition to raiding factories and breaking machines, starting in Nottingham in 1811 they, they, they ended up breaking over 1,000 machines. I mean, people lost fortunes in, in the damage done. I mean, some- some equivalent of this would have to be, like, I don’t know, if, if they, like, broke into Apple stores and just took a baseball bat to every device they could get their hands on, even in, like, the backroom inventory.[00:33:29] But I guess Apple stores are kind of designed to make that impossible. It seems like they’ve anticipated this. We’ve learned. But they also ultimately killed this man, William Hors- Horsefall. They, they attacked mills as well. They, this, I think, started with the Rawfolds Mill in 1812. And so obviously- There were immediate legal and military repercussions.[00:33:52] So this, this is the kind of movement that had to be repressed. So in a sense, the, the modern Luddite movement is at least more sustainable in that most of the even anti-data center protests are just protests. There hasn’t been at least very successful sabotage of data centers, which is nice. And at least they’re using mostly legal channels, like both in the EU and other parts of the world, plus in the US, they’re, they’re trying to move more through like zoning councils and be NIMBY about it instead of like, “I’m going to break all of the things.”[00:34:23] But there are some similarities in that like there, there were many threatening letters sent to people who are trying to buy and implement the use of these machines. A- but these are, by the way, it was, it was mostly about textiles just in case people are not clear on this. Like[00:34:40] Malcolm Collins: Which was a predominantly female industry at the time, if I understand correctly.[00:34:43] Like[00:34:43] Simone Collins: it basically No, I don’t think... No, this, this was predominantly men. I I think exclusively men. But yeah, no, it, it, it, it arose among skilled English textile workers who were like framework knitters and, and st- stockinger in North Hampshire, and croppers and shearers in Yorkshire and weavers in Lancashire.[00:35:04] So they, they were primarily men, and when they organized, they would organize like kind of semi militias. Like, they would even sometimes do military style drills as their preparations. But one of the other big things was they would send threatening letters signed by General Ludd or by this mythi- likely mythical, at least, Ned Ludd.[00:35:26] That’s why they were called Luddites. Which is kind of similar to the, the, the 13 gunshots fired outside that one council member’s house and then leaving the note of, like, no data centers outside his, his, his door. But that’s really the most, the... as close as they get. But the Luddite movement was so small that even at its peak there were maybe 7 to 8,000 sympathizers, and the, in terms of, like, the raids of factories- So[00:35:57] Malcolm Collins: the Luddite movement was smaller than the [00:36:00] Basecamp fandom?[00:36:00] Simone Collins: Yes.[00:36:00] Malcolm Collins: Like- Yeah ... that’s kind of crazy.[00:36:03] Simone Collins: Yes, it is, it is genuinely crazy. And yet it’s gone down in- And, and no, we even mean, like, yeah, like- In books ... arguably paid fandom. Whi- which is, like, y- extra committed people who are actually willing to put money down. It, it, it’s, it’s rather, it’s rather insane. And the raids never really got bigger than approximately 100 men.[00:36:20] So this is not... I, I would say the anti data center movement is bigger than the entire Luddite movement, which makes sense because it isn’t just textile workers whose livelihood is being threatened by AI, it’s, like, any-[00:36:34] Malcolm Collins: It’s humanity ... humanity job,[00:36:36] Simone Collins: email job or what, what do they call them? Yeah, email job employee or, like, white collar worker at this point who’s being threatened by them.[00:36:44] I, and plus these were working class artisans, whereas the primary participants of the Luddite movements appear to be privileged young people and then kind of retired boomers. And then just, like, some families that are like, “Well, I live in Brooklyn and we’re looking for something we can take our kids to, so this looks fun.[00:37:03] There’s a play about the Luddite movement, and there’s a puppet frog. Oh, our kids will love that.” You know, like, they’re, I think they’re just kind of, they’re there because they, they kind of like the aesthetics of the movement and, you know, they probably are anti-screen parents ‘cause they live in Brooklyn, and they’re just going because it’s there, right?[00:37:18] So I, I wouldn’t say that this is a movement to, this isn’t some kind of domestic terror movement in the same way the original Luddite movement is. I think it’s kind of odd that they’re choosing the word Luddite because the original Luddite movement was very much about, like, destroying career threatening tech, whereas here they’re more like, “Well, I just don’t really want, you know, Mark Zuckerberg to fly over to Nigeria.”[00:37:40] Well, I mean, and Luddite[00:37:41] Malcolm Collins: also took on a vernacular term over the years that-[00:37:44] Simone Collins: It did. It did. But I don’t know. I, and I also think that, like, it, it’s, it’s very interesting. I feel like it, it is a, a market correction of sorts that’s, that’s, it’s worth listening to in the sense that A lot of people are trying to go back to, like, kind of a early 2000s era internet use, which I could see as being relatively healthy, like, worth pursuing.[00:38:09] Because I think that worked pretty well for us. It, it’s working really well for our kids, who I think are having that kind of relationship with tech and the internet. And I think that’s kind of maybe the sweet spot for humans, and it, I think it’s important to note if that’s where people are converging But what do you think?[00:38:29] Malcolm Collins: Yeah.[00:38:31] Simone Collins: Like video game consoles- ... but not really good ones. No VR. No feeds. I think no feeds is kind of a good policy.[00:38:37] Malcolm Collins: No, just don’t be wasteful. Just don’t be wasteful. Mm-hmm. Like, come on. Th- th- that’s what I think with this stuff. Really? Like with our kids, I’m getting them the little video game ROM console and stuff like that.[00:38:48] Simone Collins: I just- No, that’s my point though. That’s what we grew up with.[00:38:51] Malcolm Collins: Y- no, but it’s more than we grew up with. It’s everything. I think it’s operating in an anti-big tech environment is a better way to do this than an anti-tech environment. And that’s functionally what they’re trying to achieve. They just want intelligent-[00:39:07] Simone Collins: Yeah, like how to make your own website, how to host your own things.[00:39:10] No, no, no, no, no, no. I was so surprised to not hear Orbit- That’s not what I mean ... in all of this.[00:39:13] Malcolm Collins: So look at the video game system I’m gonna be giving Octavian, right? Like-[00:39:17] Simone Collins: Yeah ...[00:39:17] Malcolm Collins: this is not from Nintendo. This is not from Xbox. This is made by hobbyists who wanted to make up a system that could play any ROM, right, from any of the old systems.[00:39:28] And so he can play through any of the old games on a local device. Look at the RFab. It’s coming down the RFab pipeline. You guys will have this soon. I am so excited to be working on this. But an RFab hardware we’re gonna have soon which will allow you to give to your kids a little talking companion that keeps the conversation focused on educational topics and award points and- You can also[00:39:51] Simone Collins: see the world because we found that our kid when he walks around with the, that rabbit AI device, that the camera is really crucial.[00:39:58] He wants to be able to [00:40:00] show his AI companions what he’s looking at and learn about it. Like, “Is this poison ivy,” or, “What do you think of this,” or, “What is[00:40:08] Malcolm Collins: this?” Yeah. Which is really cool. Which is really cool. I cannot wait to have RFab hardware. Yeah. But with all of the things in our life, you can choose to just not go with the big tech, and you’re generally gonna have better outcomes especially- At this point, yeah[00:40:23] as big companies get worse at things. Like right now while we’ve been having this talk, I have been spec-ing out what it’s gonna take for me to, to clone Descript’s features and just make it better and cheaper.[00:40:33] That’s[00:40:33] awesome. Because, like why? Why go and work with Descript when I can build this myself, and frankly, they charge way more than they should?[00:40:41] Simone Collins: You should do-[00:40:42] No, I, I actually really like StreamYard, but maybe StreamYard next ...[00:40:46] Malcolm Collins: Stre- you want me to do video hosting cloning? I can do video hosting. I can do that easily. Do you want me to, you want me to knock out StreamYard?[00:40:54] Simone Collins: We won’t be able to afford it much longer, so yeah. H-[00:40:57] Malcolm Collins: How much, how much are they charging us now?[00:40:59] Simone Collins: Well, remember when we, we were able to get grandfathered in on their non-business plan for just a little bit longer because of our nonprofit, but they wanted to charge, I think, like 500 a month or something. Like, some insane amount that we were like, “Oh my God, we just can’t.” So.[00:41:13] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I can, I can d- do this.[00:41:15] Simone Collins: Anyway, I’m excited. Think about it. But yeah, anyway, I think this is fine. I think that it’s bougie, but that’s fine. I just I think that the most reasonable approach to the future is kind of solar punk. We... Malcolm and I were talking about it earlier that while the original solar punk movement sort of came from a very progressive, coded, environmentalist coded space, a lot of the solar punk environments and families that we know are more on the sort of, like, conservative, like, big family side of the spectrum, where, you know, they may live on some kind of homestead, but they’re using AI to work out everything from medical solutions to complex health issues to how to develop strong, like a strong permaculture system for their unique microclimate.[00:42:05] And it’s... I think it’s really hard to do all these things without AI because a lot of us are coming into this without tacit knowledge that has been passed down from generation to generation. I- in other words, I feel like we can’t actually return to the land, return to nature, and return to old ways, like more sustainable offline ways, without AI because we have collectively as a society forgotten how to do most of these things.[00:42:30] We’ve forgotten how to tie knots and go fishing and do all these other things, and the only reason that we’re able to learn these things again is by leveraging AI and, and asking for, for that, that help. AI is playing the role that our grandparents used to play in teaching us how to do things the way that things used to be done.[00:42:48] So I would just warn people who, like, wanna go super offline that it’s gonna be hard to learn the old ways, to learn how to do things without the internet if you don’t leverage-[00:42:59] Malcolm Collins: I love they’re like, “The old ways, when you used to make a website for yourself.”[00:43:04] Simone Collins: That’s what’s, again, what’s so funny about it is it’s like, oh, this isn’t L- a Luddite movement.[00:43:08] This is a, like, go back to the early noughties internet. Anyway, though,[00:43:12] Malcolm Collins: I love[00:43:12] Simone Collins: you very much, Malcolm. Thank[00:43:13] Malcolm Collins: you[00:43:14] Simone Collins: for cheering me up. I by the way, I got the, the blood work back and I am just, the, it just completely failed. I have, I have no HCG. Just completely failed?[00:43:24] Malcolm Collins: Not[00:43:24] Simone Collins: pregnant at[00:43:24] Malcolm Collins: all?[00:43:25] Simone Collins: It... I’m not pregnant at all.[00:43:26] We lost, we lost our baby, and I’m so sad, and I really appreciate that you’ve been[00:43:32] Malcolm Collins: That’s really sad, but this happens, But[00:43:33] Simone Collins: you’ve cheered me up a lot, and I really appreciate it ...[00:43:35] Malcolm Collins: and we’re gonna keep trying. And you will get pregnant.[00:43:40] Simone Collins: Yeah. Thanks, Malcolm. All right. I love you. Bye.[00:43:44] Malcolm Collins: S- s- Simone, statistically, this should’ve been happening way more than it’s been happening.[00:43:47] Simone Collins: No, I, I know that. I know that. No, I’m, I’m not, I’m not gonna dwell on it. I’ll, I’ll yeah. Bye.[00:43:53] Malcolm Collins: Bye.[00:43:53] Simone Collins: did you find the book you were looking for?[00:43:55] Malcolm Collins: I did find it, and now it’s included with the rest of the documents, and we’ll be able to get [00:44:00] it digitized. And I didn’t just find that, but included with it was a write-up of the Collins family history, which I otherwise would have not had included.[00:44:08] Simone Collins: Dude, okay. That’s[00:44:10] Malcolm Collins: very awesome.[00:44:10] The one thing I’d really like to find for the documentary team is the first book I wrote in high school[00:44:20] I don’t[00:44:21] Simone Collins: think I’ve ever seen this. What is it?[00:44:26] Malcolm Collins: It’s called Why Do Anything? I wonder if it’s in my Google Drive. Oh,[00:44:28] Simone Collins: wait, wait, wait. That’s in Google Drive. I, I know that. I know that. Hold on. It is... At least I have a copy of it. Yeah. I, I, I made a copy of it in 2013.[00:44:39] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, like why- “[00:44:40] Simone Collins: Why do anything?” Like, literally. It’s a good title. It’s a,[00:44:44] Malcolm Collins: it’s a very awesome title. Yeah. It is essential to know what you should be working for as an ultimate goal in life.[00:44:49] Without meaning, life is meaningless. When we think of what we want out of life, we normally jump directly to shallow motivations ones derived from core motivations such as a, a loving family or a nice house. The problem with this is that we do not ask ourselves why it is that we want these things in life. If you were to ask yourself why it is that you want such things, you would in turn answer with one of four core values. Oh.[00:45:18] This is great. I love that I wrote this all the way back then. This is a[00:45:21] Simone Collins: That is delightful[00:45:23] Malcolm Collins: I remember one day when I was 15, I wondered why I was trying so hard in school. I always had assumed I did it in order to get into a good high school, which would then get me into a good college, and from there I would get a good job.[00:45:33] At that point, I would be successful, make a sufficient amount of money, and I would be able to do whatever I pleased. Ultimately, all of the effort I put in was going to make me happy, and if I simply economized and constantly worked hard, I would recap the benefits later, coming out ahead as far as happiness goes in my life.[00:45:50] It was then that I asked myself why I should strive for happiness, and I realized that I didn’t know. I was aware that pleasure centers in my brain were activated when I was happy, and that this rewarded me for doing things and achieving certain things, but why should I care? Why should I do anything?[00:46:05] Should I work hard to become successful, or instead drift through life finding happiness where I could if overall I would have more happiness doing that? Should I help other people or help myself? Without knowing what motivation should be, everything I put my efforts to would be completely pointless.[00:46:21] I decided from that point on my motivation in life would be to find a motivation. Hmm. And then I, I go through but yeah, this is... I, I would hope our kids do something like this at 15. I think this is something an exercise. And you can see The Pragmatist Guide to Life is basically just a longer rehashed version of this.[00:46:36] Simone Collins: Basically, yeah.[00:46:38] Malcolm Collins: That’s freaking[00:46:39] Simone Collins: crazy. Isn’t that wild? That is really crazy. Well, memory lane today. Kind of fun.[00:46:45] Malcolm Collins: Thank you for storing that, Simone. You’re so diligent.[00:46:48] Simone Collins: Aw. Thanks.[00:46:50] Speaker: Oh, that’s good, right? Yeah. Looks a lot like me. Hey, Tex, do you think you look like Octavian now? He can’t see himself. Well, he’s smiling, and you smile a lot. Yeah, and I like it. I like his smile when he looks at me. He’s, like, laughing. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah, he... You make him laugh. Hey, it’s close to 3:00. It’s kind of, it’s this close to 3:00.[00:47:27] Speaker 2: Yeah. It’s this close to 3:00. Super close, huh? Yeah, I’m actually s- I got right in the lyrics here I’ll play with Tex because I really wanna... I’ll play with Tex to wait for Eric. Okay. Because I know you really want him to smile. I do. Thanks, Audrey. Yeah, I’ll play with him, makes him smile. Perfect. Aw, look.[00:47:48] Speaker: Look, Tex. There’s a carrot. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe