
176 Open Fields Doctrine - With Chief Travis McLain
This week on Warden's Watch, Wayne sits down with Missouri Department of Conservation Chief of
Protection Travis McLain to tackle one of the most misunderstood topics in conservation law: the Open
Fields Doctrine. As both a conservation officer and attorney, Travis breaks down where the doctrine
came from, what it actually means, and why protecting wildlife resources requires a balance between
private property rights and public trust responsibilities.
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Maine Operation Game Thief
New Hampshire Operation Game Thief
Conservation Officers of Pennsylvania
North East Conservation Law Enforcement Chiefs Association
International Wildlife Crimestoppers
North American Wildlife Enforcement Officers Association
Here’s what we discuss:
Why the Open Fields Doctrine continues to generate confusion
Common myths about game warden authority
How conservation officers operate under the same constitutional protections and
limitations as other law enforcement officers
The origins of the Open Fields Doctrine and Hester v. United States
What the Fourth Amendment protects and what it doesn't
Why open fields are different from homes, curtilage, papers, and personal effects
"The Constitution really does apply to conservation officers, just like other police officers."
Why there isn't a game warden behind every tree
How conservation officers prioritize calls, complaints, and active hunting and fishing activity
Respecting private landowners while protecting public wildlife resources
The connection between the Open Fields Doctrine and the Public Trust Doctrine
How wildlife belongs to all citizens, not individual landowners
The history of wildlife management in North America
Robin Hood, the King's deer, and the roots of wildlife law
Why the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation is unique
The role of science and public input in setting regulations
Wildlife management as a balance of biological and social factors
Missouri's recovery from just 2,000 deer to around a million!
"What got us there when they start thinking about totally upsetting the apple cart or
changing the system."
How conservation law enforcement supports long-term wildlife sustainability
The importance of relationships between agencies, landowners, and sportsmen
Why 93% of Missouri being privately owned creates unique challenges
What could happen if conservation officers couldn't investigate wildlife violations on private
land
The role regulations play in protecting future generations of wildlife
Why enforcement is about protecting resources, not writing tickets
Conservation officers as educators and community partners
How officers are trained to respect private property rights
Social media misconceptions about conservation law enforcement
Why many large landowners welcome conservation officers onto their properties
Protecting hunting opportunities for everyone
How officers provide valuable field information back to wildlife biologists
Baiting, disease transmission, and fair chase concerns
"Rules without enforcement are just suggestions."
The Boone and Crockett Club's Poach and Pay study
Why the biggest deterrent to poaching is the presence of a capable guardian
How major wildlife cases often begin with small observations in the field
The difference between making cases and protecting resources
"It's not about the case. It's about stopping the damage that's being done to the public trust
resource."
Why successful conservation means more compliant hunters and anglers, not more citations
Protecting wildlife regardless of land ownership, wealth, or status
Challenges faced by public land hunters
Why wildlife moves freely across property boundaries
The importance of fair and consistent enforcement
Looking beyond today and managing resources for future generations
"If we all work together and respect each other, we can continue to keep going into the
future for everybody."
Final thoughts on balancing private property rights and public wildlife resources
Debunking the myth of "special powers" held by game wardens
Credits
Hosts: Wayne Saunders and John Nores
Producer: Jay Ammann
Warden’s Watch logo & Design: Ashley Hannett
Research / Content Coordinator: Stacey DesRoches
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Jul 26
48 min

175 Jessica Avery – Manitoba, Canada
Jessica Avery from Manitoba Conservation Officer Service joins Wayne at the North American Game
Warden Museum to talk about her career, life as a conservation officer in Manitoba, serving on the
museum’s board of directors, and some of the incredible places game wardens patrol in northern
Canada. From winter road caribou patrols and -60C mornings to fish poaching stakeouts and wildfire
deployments, Jessica shares what makes conservation work in Manitoba both challenging and
rewarding.
Our Sponsors:
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Maine Operation Game Thief
New Hampshire Operation Game Thief
Conservation Officers of Pennsylvania
North East Conservation Law Enforcement Chiefs Association
International Wildlife Crimestoppers
North American Wildlife Enforcement Officers Association
Here’s what we discuss:
Jessica explains the Manitoba Conservation Officer Service and how the agency has evolved over
the years
Her role as Canadian Treasurer for the North American Game Warden Museum
The unique international location of the museum
Why the museum is a "pilgrimage" destination for game wardens
Starting as a seasonal conservation officer in Manitoba
How Manitoba still offers one of the few seasonal conservation officer programs in Canada
Growing up in Saskatchewan, calling Alberta home, and building a career in Manitoba
“I’m really lucky to get to go all those places and do that kind of stuff.”
Patrolling Manitoba’s remote northern wilderness
Fly-in caribou patrols and winter road enforcement
Common caribou hunting violations officers encounter
Working alongside northern Indigenous communities
Staying in remote bush camps and nurse barracks
Northern lights and untouched wilderness in Manitoba’s far north
Waking up to temperatures around -60C (-76F)
Trucks refusing to start in extreme cold
“We were just not as prepared as we probably should have been for those temperatures.”
Using helicopters and float planes to reach remote areas
Conservation officers' role in wildfire operations
Long fire assignments and burnout challenges
Supporting firefighters with logistics and supplies
Why Manitoba has experienced severe wildfire conditions
Human-caused fires versus lightning-caused fires
Deep-burning peat and bog fires that can survive winter
Being part of a game warden family
Why so many Manitoba conservation officers meet their spouses through the job
Managing a long-distance conservation officer relationship
Building a family while advancing both careers
Moving from field work into headquarters leadership roles
Life on Manitoba’s endless prairie road system
Jessica’s favorite game warden story: a winter walleye-poaching stakeout
Surveillance in -45° temperatures
Trying not to sound like a “bull in a china shop” while sneaking into position
Catching poachers who had been using the same spot for years
“They were shocked.”
How consistent enforcement led to voluntary compliance
The value of the North American Game Warden Museum
Learning from other law enforcement museums across North America
The surprising success and size of the Game Warden Museum
“It’s just such a great career, great lifestyle.”
“I can’t imagine doing anything else with my life other than being a game warden.”
Credits
Hosts: Wayne Saunders and John Nores
Producer: Jay Ammann
Warden’s Watch logo & Design: Ashley Hannett
Research / Content Coordinator: Stacey DesRoches
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Jul 14
35 min

174 Chris Egan - With Tayton Keezer
This episode brings us a fresh perspective as Conservation Law student Tayton Keezer steps behind the
mic to interview retired New Hampshire CO Chris Egan. What starts as a simple student-to-officer
conversation turns into a mix of mentorship, hard truths, and wild field stories, as Tayton connects what
he’s learning in school to what the job really looks like in the field.
Our Sponsors:
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Maine Operation Game Thief
New Hampshire Operation Game Thief
Conservation Officers of Pennsylvania
North East Conservation Law Enforcement Chiefs Association
International Wildlife Crimestoppers
North American Wildlife Enforcement Officers Association
Here’s what we discuss:
Tayton stepping in as guest host and kicking things off with Chris
Chris’ early love for the outdoors and where it came from
Growing up around hunting, fishing, and camp culture with family
“I think it’s innate in every kid… it just needs to be fostered.”
Early influences from his dad and grandfather
Developing people skills at a young age by learning from others in the field
The importance of curiosity and asking questions
The best parts of the job, independence and building your own patrol days
“Patrolling woods and waters in an area that I love to be in”
Flexibility in choosing how to work, from boats to ATVs to foot patrol
Balancing independence with the structured nature of the role
Least favorite parts - including paperwork and detailed reporting
The reality that reports can become court evidence
The harder side of the job: fatalities, searches, and recoveries
“Those things don’t go away… they’re like a scar in your mind.”
How difficult calls can stay with you over time
Advice for young hunters and anglers entering the outdoors
Concerns about fewer kids spending time outside
“I just don’t understand how you could be bored outside.”
The mental health benefits of being outdoors
The joy and meaning the outdoors brought to Chris’ life
The balance of the job, rewarding one day and demanding the next
“Some days you shouldn’t be getting paid… other days you should be getting paid 10 times.”
Early interactions with wardens and how they shape perception of the role
Field techniques and tricks learned from other officers
A case involving illegal exotic animals inside a residence
Walking into what felt like a zoo inside someone’s home
A late-night Sasquatch call
“I had to respond to it without laughing.”
The risks of working in remote areas at night
A major poaching case involving a moose shot multiple times
The long investigation that went unsolved for years
A last-minute confession just before the statute of limitations expired
“I’m here to take responsibility for what I did.”
Accountability, personal change, and closure in that case
Chris’ approach to enforcement, firm but fair
The importance of maintaining relationships in small communities
How those relationships can impact safety and future cases
Conservation officers as a voice for wildlife
Encouragement for the next generation entering the field
Reflecting on a career built on passion, responsibility, and respect
Credits
Hosts: Wayne Saunders and John Nores
Producer: Jay Ammann
Warden’s Watch logo & Design: Ashley Hannett
Research / Content Coordinator: Stacey DesRoches
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Jun 25
48 min

173 Etienne Daigle – Quebec, Canada
If you’ve ever wondered what game wardens deal with north of the border, this one delivers. From bear
decoy busts to baby crocodiles in a bunker, “Agent de la faune” Etienne Daigle gives us a front row seat
to wildlife enforcement in Quebec, Canada - and it’s anything but predictable.
Our Sponsors:
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Maine Operation Game Thief
New Hampshire Operation Game Thief
Conservation Officers of Pennsylvania
North East Conservation Law Enforcement Chiefs Association
International Wildlife Crimestoppers
North American Wildlife Enforcement Officers Association
Here’s what we discuss:
Starting the job at just 20 years old after switching from police academy to game warden
training
“It’s two totally different jobs” - policing the woods vs the streets
Quebec wardens enforce fish, game, and trapping laws, not full police powers
Arresting suspects as a citizen in uniform before turning them over to police
First posting in Lac Saint-Jean - a remote territory with massive patrol areas
“People just don’t like bears” due to concerns about moose calves
His very first case - a bear decoy operation during closed season
Lying in a ditch as a hunter returns with his family
Waiting for a second shot to confirm intent
A plane flying overhead causes the hunter to panic
Moving the decoy’s head to trigger a reaction
“Dad, the bear is moving” leads to a second shot
Officers step in after clear evidence is established
“He truly thought it was a real bear.”
Covering areas with 10,000 plus lakes and hours-long patrol drives
Fishing opportunities - walleye, pike, and lake trout everywhere
Moose hunting rules - multiple hunters and shared tags required
“About a $2,500 fine” for illegal harvest
“The most dangerous animal is a moose with a calf.”
Transfer to a mining region brings more drug-related cases
“We are there for wildlife, but we deal with human problems too.”
Case involving a drug dealer with two baby crocodiles
Illegal possession of exotic animals without proper permits
Joint operation with provincial police
Planning entry into a single-access basement
Unexpected twist - the suspect’s father answers the door
Securing the scene and removing the animals safely
“Drugs and reptiles seem to go together.”
Roughly 300 officers covering all of Quebec
Balancing wildlife enforcement with real-world danger
Credits
Hosts: Wayne Saunders and John Nores
Producer: Jay Ammann
Warden’s Watch logo & Design: Ashley Hannett
Research / Content Coordinator: Stacey DesRoches
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Jun 12
1 hr

W09 New England Naturals - With Jake DeBow
Jake DeBow didn’t just grow up around trapping; he grew into it, built a life around it, and somehow
turned frozen beaver ponds, late nights, and a sewing machine into a thriving business. In this episode,
Wayne sits down in Jake’s trapping shed to talk about New England Naturals, the art of fur, and why
more people are starting to care about where their food and even their clothing comes from. Spoiler:
beaver might be the best red meat you’ve never tried.
Our Sponsors:
Thin Green Line Podcast
Don Noyes Chevrolet
North American Game Warden Museum
Hunt Regs
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XS Sights
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Iron Skillet Seasonings
Maine Operation Game Thief
New Hampshire Operation Game Thief
Conservation Officers of Pennsylvania
North East Conservation Law Enforcement Chiefs Association
International Wildlife Crimestoppers
North American Wildlife Enforcement Officers Association
Here’s what we discuss:
Kicking off the return of Warden’s Watch Wild: “I’ve got some wild stuff going on.”
Meeting Jake DeBow, three years in the making to get him on the show
Growing up with a father who was a nuisance wildlife trapper
“It was always raccoons and skunks coming home in cage traps.”
Sports first, trapping later, rediscovering it in college and grad school
Getting into beaver trapping because “beaver meat is delicious.”
Starting a trapline together as a couple, relationship goals outdoors style
“She was never squeamish… just fascinated.”
Using everything from a beaver: meat, fur, skulls, and glands
The “rabbit holes” of natural products and curiosity
The quiet, frozen beauty of winter trapping
“There’s something really special about being out there.”
Why trapping is harder to get into than hunting
Appeal for young adults after college looking for purpose and connection
Accessibility of beaver vs deer, “there’s a beaver in just about every ditch.”
Feeding 50% of their red meat intake from beaver
“I’ve never had someone try it and not love it.”
Beaver as the “beef of the river,” rich, mild, versatile
Supplying beaver for a wild game dinner, big reactions from the crowd
Getting 9 to 12 meals plus weeks of dog food from one animal
The origins of New England Naturals and frustration with low fur prices
“We got $12 a beaver… it didn’t feel right.”
Early side hustle, Etsy shop, tinctures, moose antler dog chews
Pandemic pivot and turning $2,000 and fiddleheads into a sewing machine
Teaching themselves fur sewing from scratch
Starting with beaver fur koozies and laughing about early attempts
The TikTok turning point, one video and everything sold out
“We couldn’t keep up… we were sewing until 2AM!”
Hiring their first employee and outgrowing the basement
Moving into a real workspace and rapid growth over two years
Using social media for education, not just selling
Breaking misconceptions about trapping and outdated stereotypes
“Trappers were quiet for 30 years… that time is gone.”
The importance of public understanding and support
Why people are reconnecting with their food
“There’s something special about being responsible for what’s on your plate.”
That same mindset applied to clothing and materials
Fur as durable, warm, and biodegradable
Plastic clothing “is going to be your grandkids’ problem.”
Product focus on practical, hard-use gear
Core products: muffs, mittens, bomber hats, and hand warmers
“We want fur in people’s hands that actually gets used.”
Beaver fur hand warmers - simple, reusable, effective
Cat toys made from real fur: “cats go nuts for them.”
Future ideas: blankets, vests, and more product expansion
Balancing growth, time, and staying true to their mission
Shop New England Naturals
Follow the fun on TikTok, YouTube, Facebook, and Instagram
Credits
Hosts: Wayne Saunders and John Nores
Producer: Jay Ammann
Warden’s Watch logo & Design: Ashley Hannett
Research / Content Coordinator: Stacey DesRoches
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May 28
1 hr 1 min

In this National Police Week memorial episode, Wayne sits down with two men who lived through an
unimaginable moment when a training exercise turned into a fight for survival. Retired Indiana DNR
Lieutenant Colonel Terry Hyndman and First Sgt. Tom Jahn revisit the day they lost their friend and
teammate, First Sgt. Karl Kelley, in a swift water incident that still shapes them decades later. It’s a
difficult listen at times - but an important one - and a reminder of what service and brotherhood truly
mean.
“It is not how these officers died that made them heroes; it is how they lived.” ~ National Law
Enforcement Memorial, Washington, DC
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May 13
43 min

On this episode of Warden’s Watch, we sit down again with Ohio’s Kevin Behr - this time joined by his
wife, Kathy - to talk about survival, recovery, and the purpose they’ve found after Kevin was shot in the
line of duty. Recorded at the International Game Warden Conference, this conversation goes beyond
the incident itself and into what happens after - for officers, spouses, families, and anyone navigating a
critical incident. A powerful update, an honest conversation, and a reminder that survival comes with
responsibility - and that even in the worst moments, purpose can still be found.
Our Sponsors:
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Maine Operation Game Thief
New Hampshire Operation Game Thief
Conservation Officers of Pennsylvania
North East Conservation Law Enforcement Chiefs Association
International Wildlife Crimestoppers
North American Wildlife Enforcement Officers Association
Here’s what we discuss:
Kathy’s spouse‑focused training on critical incidents - and why she created it
“You don’t realize what you don’t have in place until it’s happening”
Navigating power of attorney, medical decisions, and legal realities mid‑crisis
Being Kevin’s voice while he was unconscious - medically and legally
Why law enforcement statements on medication can be problematic in court
The emotional toll on spouses and kids when an officer is critically injured
Kevin seeing purpose in survival: “We did - they didn’t, so we have work to do.”
Turning trauma into something meaningful, even when healing isn’t linear
Stubbornness as a survival trait (and yes, it helped)
Brain injury recovery, negativity, and recognizing the long road back
Living with permanent change and reframing it positively
“Any fool can get through this - I’m living proof.”
The power of humor in trauma recovery
Doctors who refuse to give up: “Nobody quits on my team. Not even you.”
Finding a new purpose when the old one can’t exist anymore
How Kevin’s experience now helps train officers, trauma teams, and agencies
The ripple effect of sharing hard truths so others can prepare
Sidebar conversations that matter more than the main stage
Why laughing, crying, and telling the story all matter
“Everybody’s the main character in their own story.”
Surviving isn’t the end - it’s the beginning of responsibility
Kevin and Kathy as resources for those walking similar paths
Miracles along the way - and choosing to keep them moving forward
Credits
Hosts: Wayne Saunders and John Nores
Producer: Jay Ammann
Warden’s Watch logo & Design: Ashley Hannett
Research / Content Coordinator: Stacey DesRoches
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May 7
31 min

In this episode of Warden’s Watch, we’re introducing a new sponsor to the show - Iron Skillet Seasonings - and sitting down with the people behind the product. Founder Dennis Dedek and new owner Cody Baciuska join us to talk about how Iron Skillet got its start, why their seasonings are developed specifically for wild game, and what makes them different from anything else on the shelf. From decades‑old family recipes to practical, real‑world cooking advice, this is a conversation about making wild game taste its best - without overcomplicating it.
Our Sponsors:
Thin Green Line Podcast
Don Noyes Chevrolet
North American Game Warden Museum
Hunt Regs
WiseEye
SecureIt Gun Storage
XS Sights
“A Cowboy in the Woods” Book
Iron Skillet Seasonings
Maine Operation Game Thief
New Hampshire Operation Game Thief
Conservation Officers of Pennsylvania
North East Conservation Law Enforcement Chiefs Association
International Wildlife Crimestoppers
North American Wildlife Enforcement Officers Association
Credits
Hosts: Wayne Saunders and John Nores
Producer: Jay Ammann
Warden’s Watch logo & Design: Ashley Hannett
Research / Content Coordinator: Stacey DesRoches
Subscribe:
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Apr 23
41 min

What began as a baffling discovery in a Washington State clearcut quickly turned into one of the most significant wildlife cases in the region – mainly because of the sentence that followed. Officers Lanny McOmber and Sergeant Brian Alexander walk us through a long, technical investigation involving multiple poached elk, complex necropsies, geofence warrants, cutting-edge tech and a suspect who just couldn’t stay away.
Our Sponsors:
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Maine Operation Game Thief
New Hampshire Operation Game Thief
Conservation Officers of Pennsylvania
North East Conservation Law Enforcement Chiefs Association
International Wildlife Crimestoppers
North American Wildlife Enforcement Officers Association
Here’s what we discuss:
· Why officers called it the Ray Anderson case
· Four elk found dead in a clearcut
· “There was no question - this was a poaching incident.”
· Necropsies on multiple elk in field conditions
· No bullets or brass recovered
· A fifth elk tied to the incident
· Early frustration with limited evidence
· Asking the public for tips
· Turning to geofence warrants
· A complex, multi‑step warrant process
· Waiting months for data returns
· Separate trespassing issues on timber land
· Cut gates and trail cameras
· A familiar vehicle keeps reappearing
· The suspect returning near the scene
· Contact with a convicted felon
· Firearms located in the vehicle
· Quietly keeping cases separate
· Geofence data starts lining up
· An interview that slowly tightens
· Initial denials turn into admissions
· The claim of “guiding” elk by shooting at them
· Washington’s spree‑killing statute explained
· Elevating wildlife violations to felonies
· How prior case law came full circle
· The gut punch of sentencing day
· A delayed - but meaningful - outcome
· Mentorship and career‑defining cases
· “You create your own luck in this job.”
Credits
Hosts: Wayne Saunders and John Nores
Producer: Jay Ammann
Warden’s Watch logo & Design: Ashley Hannett
Research / Content Coordinator: Stacey DesRoches
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Apr 17
1 hr 4 min

In this episode of Warden’s Watch, we sit down with members of the Pennsylvania Game Commission’s Tracking Team - a rare, highly trained group of game wardens who specialize in man tracking. From grassroots beginnings and intense training standards to real‑world deployments where everything clicks, this conversation explores what it truly means to be experts in the woods. Along the way, the guys share powerful success stories, gear talk, and a reminder that camaraderie might just be the most important tool they carry.
Our Sponsors:
Thin Green Line Podcast
Don Noyes Chevrolet
North American Game Warden Museum
Hunt Regs
WiseEye
SecureIt Gun Storage
XS Sights
“A Cowboy in the Woods” Book
Maine Operation Game Thief
New Hampshire Operation Game Thief
North East Conservation Law Enforcement Chiefs Association
International Wildlife Crimestoppers
Here’s what we discuss:
· How Pennsylvania’s Tracking Team grew from a small grassroots idea
· Wardens investing in their own training before the team officially existed
· The missing person search that proved the team’s value
· What it really means to be “the police in the woods”
· Why earning a tab can take two to five years
· The training required to stay on the team, from tracking to firearms to med skills
· Why trackers focus on disturbance, not perfect boot prints
· “If it was just footprints in the sand, we wouldn’t need a tracking team.”
· Learning the natural patterns of the woods - and noticing what breaks them
· How time, distance, and decision‑making shape every search
· A call‑out that led to a young boy being found and returned home
· A fugitive pursuit that unfolded just like a training scenario
· “Everything clicked - it felt like Christmas morning.”
· How tracking teams and K9 units support each other in the field
· Knowing the limits of scent work and when human tracking matters most
· The gear they carry and why preparation is everything
· A quick snack can be a small thing that makes a big difference
· How mapping and coordination happen before teams ever hit the woods
· The close‑knit camaraderie that defines the team
· What it means to wear the tab and lead by example
· The “shirt off your back” tradition
· Why so many wardens want to join the team - and why standards stay high
· How teams like this help agencies stay trusted, capable, and relevant
Credits
Hosts: Wayne Saunders and John Nores
Producer: Jay Ammann
Warden’s Watch logo & Design: Ashley Hannett
Research / Content Coordinator: Stacey DesRoches
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Apr 3
39 min
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