Surviving September 11 took more than courage. It took preparation, trust, and the ability to manage fear. I share my experience escaping from the 78th floor of the World Trade Center with my guide dog, Roselle, and the lessons that shaped how I responded that morning. You’ll hear how years of learning my surroundings, trusting my training, and understanding my role as a leader helped me stay focused during the evacuation. I also explore blindness, the limits society places on blind people, and the power of teamwork between a guide dog and handler. Most of all, this story is about focusing on what you can control, trusting the relationships you’ve built, and preparing yourself to act when fear shows up. Highlights: 00:10 – Why Michael is revisiting September 11, 25 years later. 11:45 – How Michael learned that blindness itself isn’t the limitation. 32:50 – Why preparation inside the World Trade Center mattered when crisis hit. 36:40 – How staying calm helped Michael lead others toward safety. 44:46 – The lesson Michael heard while running from the collapsing tower. 51:59 – What Roselle taught Michael about fear, trust, and moving forward. About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .

A chessboard can teach you a lot about building a business. I talk with entrepreneur and Branded Riches author Neryk Davydov about how chess shaped his approach to sales, branding, money management, customer relationships, and business growth. Neryk shares lessons from selling as a teenager, building a distribution business, creating private-label brands, and developing multiple streams of income. We also explore financial freedom, passive income, customer trust, time management, and knowing when to act fast or study your next move. Neryk believes strong businesses come from understanding people, managing what you already have, and staying ready for the opportunities in front of you. Highlights: 01:57 – Discover how Neryk’s early sales experiences began shaping his business mindset. 08:18 – Explore how chess influences the way Neryk approaches decisions and opportunities. 15:57 – Learn a simple system for managing money and building stronger financial habits. 30:30 – Hear how spotting the right opportunity can lead to creating a new product. 38:01 – Discover why understanding the customer matters before trying to make the sale. 48:38 – Explore why money management should begin long before you feel wealthy. About the Guest: Neryk Davydov brings more than 20 years of Marketing, Branding, and Sales experience from a variety of companies like Distributors, Wholesaler, and Retailers. His entrepreneur life has helped 3 other companies to become millionaires before he started his own company because of loyalty. He has grown a company from having 3 reps into 10 reps and causing the company to expand in different territories. Neryk has always been the #1 company income earner and always gave new ideas and product lines to introduce to his company which would quadruple in sales and earned lots of profits for the company. In 2006, Neryk finally opened his own successful company and from that point it was history. The big success started coming when Neryk has invested in his own personal growth and development education learning from Millionaire all the secrets about sales, marketing and branding. One can become rich is when you create your own brand and sell it by the bunches, then you will earn a passive or business income through other people’s efforts instead just yourself. Along the way he also started to do Joint Ventures with big companies and CEO’s and started to create his own brands and products which went on to become a huge success. He has helped other leading bigger companies to learn lots of skills on branding, and marketing ideas from his products. Neryk has an amazing, passionate, loving wife, Kelly Davydov and two kids Tova and Avichai which was an inspiration to write this book to show that anybody can do anything they want in life when they have their mindset. Now Neryk focus his time on giving back to other Entrepreneur and sharing the secrets to success through helping them Brand their products or themselves from offline marketing to online marketing to see more entrepreneur succeed instead of fail. Ways to connect with Neryk**:** You can find more benefits how Branded Riches can help you build your Brand, Product, Business, and Yourself at https://www.BrandedRiches.com   Connect:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/neryk-davydov Branded Riches Audiobook by Neryk Davydov https://www.audible.com/pd/Branded-Riches-Audiobook/B0GCP9MMRB Branded Riches Book https://www.amazon.com/Branded-Riches-Increase-Income-Irresistible/dp/1987753836 $5 Free Gift for Creating A New Ovato Wallet    www.ovatoCoin.com  About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:04 What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe? Welcome to Unstoppable Mindset, where inclusion, diversity, and the unexpected meet. I'm your host, Michael Hingston, speaker, author, and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead, and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head-on, and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear. Together, we focus on mindset, resilience, and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Unstoppable Mindset. Today we get to talk with Neryk Davydov, and I want you to understand his name is Neryk, not Eric. I asked that question because I've seen him print it both ways, but a lot of people tend to to get it wrong. But his name is actually Neryk. Anyway, he is an interesting person who I think will have a lot to offer to us. He brings a lot of experience in marketing and branding and sales, and has worked with a variety of different companies to what he is doing today. He started his own company a number of years ago, and I'm sure he's going to tell us about that. I'm not going to give it away, and I want him to do it, so I'm going to be quiet and let him do it. But I want to just say at the outset, Neryk, we're really glad that you're here with us, and I really appreciate you coming on Unstoppable Mindset. Neryk Davydov  01:56 Same as well, Michael. Thanks for inviting. Michael Hingson  01:59 Well, glad to do it. Neric is down in Florida, where I assume it's reasonably warm weather. Is it warm down there? Neryk Davydov   02:08 Oh yeah, around 80s, 70s. It depends. Michael Hingson  02:11 Yeah, we're where I live in Southern California, and we're up in what's called the high desert. We are in an area where it can get pretty cool earlier in the week, it was only in the high 40s for a a high. But today, it's supposed to get up to 71. Go figure. So, we we have that. Well, why don't we start? If you would, I love to start this way. Why don't you tell us about kind of the early Neryk growing up and some of the the early stuff about you? Neryk Davydov   02:40 Early stuff about me, so Michael Hingson  02:43 we might as well. Neryk Davydov   02:45 So when I was six years old, actually, my father taught me how to play chess, and that's where the whole concept came out with branded riches and connecting all the business wise. And I had an entrepreneurial life where I would go out and clean snows and do different things as an entrepreneur, and I've been learning different skills and marketing and branding and sales. Like for example, I had one story I remember. This guy came to us from a Boy Scout, and he says, "Hey guys, would you like to go and sell some cookies in Long Island? I said, "Yeah, let's do it. So we got in, we sold some cookies in a rich neighborhood, and that's how we were learning how to sell. And then when we came to Queens, we were selling, not selling. We were shoveling snow, and we were making like 10, $15 back in the days per house because we were working with immigrants. And then I had an idea where I would say to my friends, I'd say, "Hey, listen, you guys are driving. Let's go the four of us to Long Island, where they taught me how to sell cookies there, and all of a sudden, our customers were actually paying us from 50 to $100 per house instead of $10. So we're looking and learning from the quality of people that we had. Michael Hingson  04:16 What did that teach you when you were moving over and starting to sell in Long Island, what what did that what did that actually teach you? Neryk Davydov   04:24 So it taught me about the location that location really matters and the quality of people that you work with. It's you'll get the same amount of money or higher amount of money for the quality of service that you provide for other people. Michael Hingson  04:44 I know, as a public speaker, I oftentimes get organizations. They say I can't pay you a lot, and I'd like to work with budgets. But the thing that I notice most often is that the organizations that say they can't pay a lot are won't. Pay a lot. Also, happen to be the organizations that make life harder than anything else for for me as a speaker. They have too many demands and other things like that. It just gets pretty interesting after a while, and I find that the organizations that tend to pay more for speakers and that tend to really put the time into researching you don't have the same level of demands, and they have a greater understanding of the whole process, which I find interesting. Neryk Davydov   05:33 Correct. Yeah. Michael Hingson  05:35 Not a surprise. Neryk Davydov   05:37 No. Michael Hingson  05:40 Well, so you did that. So did you? So you actually were a part of the Boy Scouts? Neryk Davydov   05:46 No, it was actually an immigrant Russian guy that came from Russia. He learned about Boy Scouts, and then he implemented that same system with his own Boy Scout theory that he created. Michael Hingson  06:01 Okay. Neryk Davydov   06:02 Back in the days, I didn't know that, and then I learned from this entrepreneur that he has actually created a whole system through it. Michael Hingson  06:10 Oh, okay. Well, Girl Scouts have been selling cookies for years and being quite successful with Neryk Davydov   06:16 it. Right. Michael Hingson  06:19 Oh, that's that's pretty cool. Well, so so you you did that so when you were a teenager, I gather. Neryk Davydov   06:29 That was in the teenagers, yeah. And then when I moved down to South Florida, I was working for a corporate office, and I was making pretty good money back in the days. It was where I was making $12 an hour, which is pretty high, and it was like a temp job for six months. And then after that, they laid me off because I really did my job. And I said, "Oh man, you think something bad has happened to you, right? Because you you're not working anymore. Then I went to a company called Cutco Knives. They taught me how to sell. Yeah, they taught me how to sell knives, how to create appointments, how to do schedule, how to do a lot of things. And Cutco knives, as you know, they're not cheap knives. You got to sell 1200 knives in order to make it successful, and because I was connected with a lot of Jewish people, I used to sell them two sets of knives: one black and one white, because they eat different types of food, right? Meat dairy separate. So, and that's where I learned my skills, and then my father said, "You know, you need a real job. I said, "If it's sales, I'd love it. So that's how I got into the distribution business. He was bragging about me to his friends that I'm a best salesperson, and when I got into that company, it was called Yimagination. I came in as a wholesale distributor, and when I looked at the prices, I was like, "Wow, this is nothing compared to what I was selling. And I built up that company so fast that they had to hire eight different salespeople to take care of all of my accounts. Michael Hingson  08:17 So, how old were you at this time? Neryk Davydov   08:22 That was around 18 years old. Michael Hingson  08:25 Okay, so you just graduated from high school. Neryk Davydov   08:28 Correct. Correct. Michael Hingson  08:29 Okay. Neryk Davydov   08:31 And doing in between college as well, going into college, working as a salesperson, and getting into international business Career. Michael Hingson  08:42 Where does chess fit into all of that? I understand what what you said about learning to play chess when you were six. When did you start really incorporating and thinking about chess as being a part of that? Neryk Davydov   08:57 Since I was little and actually implementing and creating my brands, it also it affects you a lot. Like when you play chess, it's it's an amazing thing because you learn how to manage your time, manage your money, how to take action fast, and there's a lot of things incorporate. Do calculations the right way. There's a lot of things incorporated there. It's like timing. I talk about timing all the time. I'm a blitz player. Blitz player means we play five minute games and long hour games, which is three hours. So you and I still compete in the competitions as of now. So when I play in the Long-term competitions, the three-hour games, I just go nuts. Fly on a blitz, I love it because I take action fast and I make moves. Like when business opportunities come my way, I actually look it over and I take action right away. Don't lose the opportunities. Michael Hingson  10:02 When do you find that it's more worth it to spend a little bit of time and analyzing before you make a move or before you do something in business, as opposed to when do you find that it's best if you take action right away? I assume that there are sort of different rules or different conditions that cause you to choose to make different choices based on what you're looking at, Neryk Davydov   10:30 right? So in blitz, usually when you play, you play pretty fast, but because you you have the same intuition that you would have in the long games. It's just that you have so much practice and knowledge and skills that you'll see those moves and those tactics and those strategies come your way right away. And then in the long games, like when I play long games against somebody else, which must must be even stronger player than me, when they make a critical move, in some points I would take that five extra minutes just to look over the game because he might see something better than I have. So just like in business, we have the same thing. Like if if it's an opportunity for me to get into a new product, I would get into that product and then tweak it and make it better little by little, and that's how you would get into the business right away. But then you have different aspects where you have to analyze and take your time, where the projects are way way bigger and you have other partners involved. Michael Hingson  11:41 So you really equate a lot of business and business life and business thinking with the same things that you you think about when you're playing chess. Neryk Davydov   11:52 Yes, correct. Actually, we play at Panera all the time. I'm the club in the Panera Club. We play chess, and it's amazing because I have venture capitalists at the place, I have app guys that design their own apps, and every person that I play against, I could actually tell how they live their life based on the simple game of chess that I play with them on a five-minute game. If they procrastinate, if they overthink, like I had the other day. This player is stronger than me, but what happens is he keeps on losing because his time runs out because he doesn't know how to manage his time the right way. Michael Hingson  12:33 Yeah, I know that when I play chess, I probably well, I've I've never tried to do a blitz game, but I think I would probably have more of a challenge with it, just because I know that I haven't spent enough time practicing to really totally memorize the board. So I have to keep looking at the board, and the result of that is that I take time doing that. But but I also understand and value a a blitz game, and I know I've I've known people who do that very well, Neryk Davydov   13:04 right? Okay, Michael Hingson  13:06 but but it's a but it's an interesting process, needless to say, and the fact that you've trained yourself to be able to work fast or slow depending on the circumstances is what really makes for an interesting situation, which I can appreciate. Neryk Davydov   13:24 Yeah, you know, the hardest project that I had actually was writing my book, Branded Riches, because my language, my second language is English, so my first language is Russian. So coming as an immigrant, my skills was pretty high in math because of chess, but and English was the hardest because I had to learn four different languages and and then write a book. So that was the challenging out there that I had. If Speaker 1  13:59 you enjoy Unstoppable mindset, and would like to help us continue bringing these conversations to you each week. We've created a way for you to support the show. Your contribution helps us cover production costs and continue sharing stories, insights, and ideas that inspire people to live with purpose and possibility. If supporting the podcast feels right for you, you'll find the link in the show notes. Thank you for being part of the Unstoppable Mindset Community. Michael Hingson  14:32 Well, so you you spend a lot of time today. You do you conduct a lot of seminars, sales seminars, and so on. Neryk Davydov   14:45 So mostly I do trainings. We had different companies where I used to train other salespeople to become successful, and from that point on, I trained them so well that they became my competition. They started. Creating their own brands and becoming successful, you know, but but that's what I do. Actually, I train other people. If you see on the background of Auto, so we train other people how to create a brand and how to label and how to market and how to create CRMs and how to brand themselves as a company and create CRMs for them and make money through our cryptocurrency them out with. Michael Hingson  15:33 Right. The the other aspect of of all of that is that when they become your Competition. It seems to me you have two possible options as to how you look at it. One is that they're your competition; they're the enemy. But the other is it's a great compliment that they thought so highly of you that they became your competition, which I would think is a whole lot better way to look at Neryk Davydov   15:57 it. Right. Actually, competition is great, and I love it because we actually work with each other and help each other out. Right. I remember I had a partner where I had the money. No, he had the money, and I had the customers. And then at the end, we split up, and then I had the money, and we're still doing business together because we have the customers, we have the products, we do private branding and stuff like that. Michael Hingson  16:30 Right. Well, and there's a lot to be said for that. And as you said, competition is a is a good thing, positive, and it it doesn't hurt to to have a little bit of competition to keep you on your toes, if as it were. Neryk Davydov   16:47 Right. Michael Hingson  16:48 So, what do you advise people on regarding if they're in debt, getting out of debt? Neryk Davydov   16:57 Perfect question. I actually I went to a training called Millionaire Mind Intensive with Tiha Record, and it was a bunch of millionaires teaching us how to manage our money. And I was actually $40,000 in debt. And when I went through that seminar, he taught us something amazing called a six jar system. It's how you manage your money. Most of the people actually put all their money in one basket. Like for example, they receive the check, and what they do is they put that into the bank account, and then all of a sudden, at the end of the week or the end of the month, they have no money available. So what we do is we teach them the six jar system, which is the FFA, which is financial freedom account. You would put 10% into it. Then you have LTSS, which is long-term saving spending, which is luxury. Another 10% That means that if you want to buy a nice house, a nice car, you would put another 10% away. Then you would put 10% into education, which is on personal growth and development, like seminars to train yourself to become better. Under always give charity, which is 10% And then you gotta have this account called play, and as you play, you have to remember as a child that you need to spend that money because if you don't spend that money, that 10% what happens with it is you're actually working, working, working, and then at the end you're not spending anything, so you get frustrated, you know, and then the necessity would be the 50% which is your bills and stuff like that that you need to pay off. Michael Hingson  18:47 Right, Neryk Davydov   18:48 and and let's say some people say, "Oh, I can't live on 50%. So what we tell them is, you should start out with even $100, and as you grow, just keep on adding more money, but keep dividing them and spreading the income in different jars or different envelopes or different bank accounts, and that way you become successful because now you know how to manage your money. Michael Hingson  19:17 Yeah. Well, and it is about money management. It is all about recognizing that you have to, and you have control over your money, and you have to exercise control. For me, one of my favorite things. My wife and I, she is passed now, but my late wife and I had a couple of times where we went into credit card debt, or we had a business for a while that worked, but it wasn't selling enough to make enough money for us to really survive. But what we what we did is that we worked both times to make sure we paid off all of our. Bills, although sometimes it didn't happen quite as fast as we would like, but what I really like today is that, and I executed this once after my wife passed. I pay every credit card bill every month, so I don't have any balances on any of the cards because I was able to automatically have all the the bills paid, which is such a comfort, because I'm not going to overspend, and I'm also going to make sure that I really look at what I'm what I'm paying for. But it's just such a wonderful thing to be able to tell the bank take the money right from the outset, so I take the choice away from me and won't ever be tempted to to spend money in a different way and add a lot of credit card bills to it because credit card debt to it because I've adjusted the process through a mindset to make sure that we we pay everything off at the end of every month. Neryk Davydov   21:03 So, so I'll tell you my secret that I learned from one of the millionaire. His name is Marshall Silver, and he said that people that pay off their credit cards, they're actually making a lot of money on free vacations, and they get credit card cashbacks. Yeah. So, what I do in my business, since I run a distribution business, I buy merchandise 3040, 50, $100,000 worth of merchandise, and I pay with my credit card. So now I'm actually getting 2% cash back. Michael Hingson  21:33 Yep. Neryk Davydov   21:33 While other people that are overpaying and not paying everything on time, they're actually paying the interest and my vacations for free, Michael Hingson  21:41 yeah. Neryk Davydov   21:42 So that's what happens. Yeah, you're right. Michael Hingson  21:45 Yeah, and the other thing that I've learned, which I find interesting, and I heard this: we bought a car a few years ago and had a a six year loan, but in addition to the monthly car payment, we pay $100 a week, and at in sometime in the next two or three months, in like only about three years, the car will be completely paid off because we're not paying all that interest. We're paying it off and and getting it all done. Neryk Davydov   22:16 Right. Yep. Michael Hingson  22:18 Which which is very helpful thing to do as well. Neryk Davydov   22:21 Yes. Michael Hingson  22:23 So, talk to me if you would like about how you increase your income and where that relates to chess. Neryk Davydov   22:32 Okay. How to increase my income? So let me just share something that I have for you guys, so there's something in our life that we created through a game of chess. Like we have pawns, right? When we start out in the beginning, we are all pawns, and we are growing gradually. We become bishops, we become knights, we become rook, and we become a queen. A queen means when you actually become either self-employed or you have passive income just coming in. But you can never become a pawn again. You could always upgrade to something else because once you learn your lessons, you become more successful on it, and for example, the way I used to increase my income in multiple streams of income, one way is by creating a brand. When you create your own brand, now you are in charge of it. Now you're actually making more money, and you are in control of it. So now you could charge people more money that it's supposed to be worth because everybody is using marketing advertising for the same product that you have created. I'll tell you a story that happened with me with my Fire Hookah brand many many years ago. I came to this guy and he created a vape that was very popular and it had nicotine on it and everything, and I told him, "Hey, how would you? Can I sell your product? He says, "No, I cannot sell you. You cannot buy my product and sell it because I have exclusivity with all these distributors. I said, "But all these distributors, they sell to big stores. They don't sell to mom and pop stores where I am, and I would respect those stores, he says. "No, I can't sell it to you. I said, "No problem. I went, I called China. I created my own brand, and but I created one without nicotine. I didn't want to give him a competition. I created something different. Six months later, he created one without nicotine because I bypassed them on all the sales, and my brand became more popular than his brand. And then I had another idea where I was getting into Ovato, which is the crypto coin, and I saw this guy coming into one of my stores, and he's he was putting these Bitcoin ATM machines out there, and I said. Hey, this is a great opportunity for me to do joint ventures with somebody. So I gave him a call and I said, "Hey, listen, how would you like to do joint ventures? I have a lot of convenience stores and gas stations. I will put your machines in all my stores. Let me just get a percentage of every store that I put it in. And I started with $400 per store, and then I told them, let's change it around. Instead of $400 per store that I initially gave you, I want to get residual income, which means I want $100 per store that will make me pay me passive income, and that went for five years nicely. If you put in in a lot of stores, Michael Hingson  25:43 yeah. Well, and of course, it's a lot of times it is all about quantity, especially if you're doing distribution, having a number of different places to go into. Neryk Davydov   25:57 Correct, correct. Michael Hingson  26:00 So, what got your interest aroused to go into crypto? Neryk Davydov   26:06 So, when I got into Ovato back in the days, and I was hearing about Bitcoin, I was so new that I thought I actually invested into Bitcoin. And as I was finding out that Bitcoin and Ovato was totally different thing. I said, "So what is this? And my friend Raja was telling me, "You don't worry. Keep on investing into Bitcoin because this thing is just gonna shoot up. And back in the days, Bitcoin was only $3,000, and so I kept buying a little bit here, a little bit there, and as I learned, I learned Ethereum and stuff. But I saw huge potential to Ovato, where I could help my customers and business owners because on credit card fees, they actually have to pay 3% on every transaction. Where Ovato will come in, and it will save them 1% on transaction fee. So that's where usually, what what I like to do is I like to do business with what I'm doing with my customers and help them on top. That way, it doesn't waste my time, and also it helps my customers and saves them money and makes them money as well. So that's why I got into Bitcoin and crypto and Ethereum and Ovato and all these different coins. So is Ovato one type of Bitcoin? Yeah. So Ovato is actually a utility coin, and this is how you know when a coin is successful. There's a lot of coins out there. There's like Mimi coins, which is like Pepe, Fort Coin, Dogecoin. Those coins can be like a pump and dump. With a utility coin, it's different because if you have a utility coin where people can buy things with it and save money and use it every day, those are the coins. In the long term, they will succeed, so that's the difference between our coin and any other coin out there. Michael Hingson  28:08 So who created Ovato as a coin? Neryk Davydov   28:11 His name is Albert. He's the guy behind the technology out there. So what I did is actually when I got into it, it was 60 cents. I brought investors at 90 cents. Our coin went to $10, and a lot of investors cashed out, made money. But what happened is they cashed out in the wrong time because we didn't build out the interface, the front, the you know how you call it, the infrastructure. We didn't build it yet. Now we build the infrastructure. We have the tablets. We have the stores. We have an ambassador program. We have a super affiliate marketing. Everything built out. So when our coin went from $10 to 15 cents, within one year we took the coin for 15 cents to 94 cents, and we and now we went on the exchange. So the difference between our coin and other coins, most all the coins they usually go on the exchange first, and they wish that their coin goes up. And if it goes up, they will succeed. If it doesn't, they won't they won't succeed. Right. But we we on the other hand, we build out the stores, we help them out, and then we go on the exchange for our customers to cash out if they need to cash out to run their business, right? And they get also loyalty rewards program. And every customer that signs up, they would make a profit because now they're creating a loyalty customer like a CRM, so instead of paying $10,000 on CRM to somebody else, they're actually creating money. So I would compare our company like a Groupon with crypto and rewards program, but you get to keep the customers. That's the difference between our company. Michael Hingson  29:57 So our and and this is what you're. Doing today, Neryk Davydov   30:01 correct. Well, I still run my distribution business. That's my bread and butter, you know. But then what I do is I reinvest into different crypto, real estate, different businesses out there, or startups. But I take Ovato. Ovato is like my baby. That's gonna explode, go to like 2030, $40. That's where I look at Ovato, where it's going to be hitting. So what I'm doing is I'm acquiring as many wallets as we can and as many customers as we can to help them out, because Ovato is going to be all over the world. We're already all over the world, but our merchant program, we're already building it in three different markets, which is Florida, New York, and UK. Those are the three main markets where we're building, and then we're going to go worldwide everywhere else. Michael Hingson  30:53 What do you mainly distribute as a distributor? What what what products typically? Neryk Davydov   30:59 So, if you heard the brand Raw, I was the one that made them popular. The Clipper lighters, the 420 sprays, mostly like smoke smoke shop item products that are very popular and on the shelves. Michael Hingson  31:15 Okay. Neryk Davydov   31:17 And actually, I just we just created our own brand, and it was funny how it happened. So I was helping my nephew in a barber shop. He wanted to become a distributor selling barber supplies. So I went to a trade show with him, and the show was quiet. And all of a sudden, I see this guy, and his booth was busy, and he's like, "Are you in pain? I'm like, yeah, I have a shoulder that hurts a little bit. He's like, sit down. He puts on this cream, and the scream hits me up, and the pain goes away instantly. So I came to him and I told him, hey, how would you like to do joint ventures? See, I always think three or four or five or six moves ahead, like in chess. Right. And I tell them instead of me selling the big creams that he has, I want to create a small little packs where, like, they're gonna be like a tonal packs, and that's where I tell them, let's create a private brand for us with your name on it. But I want exclusivity where we have little packs like the tonals where I could sell them wholesale to the stores, and the stores sell them to the customers, and that's what we have created. It's called Powerful X, and now we're distributing that product as well. Michael Hingson  32:27 Wow, is it making a fair amount of money for you? Neryk Davydov   32:31 So right now is the stage of building it up. So we just got project, Michael Hingson  32:36 ah, Neryk Davydov   32:37 and we got it. It's all about marketing, branding. It takes time to to brand the and make it popular because in order to sell to big distributors, you first have to do the legwork. You have first I have to build it up, and I teach actually how to take the products and build them into the store. So you want to put them either on consignment and charge them a little bit higher, and then when you want to close the deal, you're gonna give them for a cheaper price. And then once it's in like let's say 150 stores, then you could hit a big distributor and tell them, hey, would you like to sell distribute my product because I have it in all these stores, and they'd love to see if you have the product as well, and then they'll take on the product. But they wouldn't buy a product from you until it's popular, so you have to do the public work first. Michael Hingson  33:32 It's all about credibility, Neryk Davydov   33:34 correct? Michael Hingson  33:37 So tell me more about the whole concept of of a brand, which I think also has a lot to do with credibility, but why is having a brand as such so important, and what does it really mean to have a brand? Neryk Davydov   33:48 Well, it's first of all, it's your brand; you're building it out, so it's like you're building a name for yourself. It's like, for example, the day we were promoting Ovato, and when I spoke with one of the football players, and I told him I wrote a book about branded riches and stuff like that. Now he's looking into a different level of investment with Ovato because you have the credibility of creating that brand, and if I didn't have that credibility of creating my own brand, my own name. It would be hard to get NFL players or any popular people to invest into you or into your products or into your brands that you create. Michael Hingson  34:35 Well, and having a a brand, I I talk about it all the time when people talk to me as a speaker. Well, you know, what are you worth? When I say, well, my brand is worth a lot. Neryk Davydov   34:51 That's it. You can sell it in the future, right? Yeah, Michael Hingson  34:54 and it is worth a lot. It is. It is important to understand that. And if people don't see the value in that, then then that's unfortunate. But the brand does count for a for a whole lot, Neryk Davydov   35:08 right? Even some people, like for example, when I distributed some products, I might have a higher price on it. Why? Because I'm actually the first one who gets in the new products, and I make them popular. So by the time every other distributor gets it, it's going to be too late for them to make that money. So that's what I do in the beginning. And they say, "How come you're more expensive? I'm like, "I'm here building the brands. But in the future, when everybody has the product, then the price goes down because now you guys are all competing against each other. Michael Hingson  35:42 Yeah, yeah. How do you how do you manage your time and your schedule? Neryk Davydov   35:50 That's incredible. That's where actually chess comes in, and there's a lot of things on how to manage your time, and and that's where the chess comes in, right? Five minutes, three hours difference. And if especially if you're in sales, and that's what I learned from Cutco Knives, which is amazing. They teach you to create a calendar, to be organized, do customer analysis. Like for example, I visit customers over 300 customers. So what do I do. I go in special area where I circle around and I see them on Mondays. Then I have Tuesday customers. Then I have Wednesday customers. And let's say if a Friday customer calls me on Monday and says I need product, I said I'm going to be in your area on Friday. I'm not going to just go make a circle to see them because now I'm losing time, and then you would also analyze who bought, who didn't buy, and that's how you would manage it and just follow up with them and resell them and and analyze like your customers how you sell. Michael Hingson  36:55 How do people react when you say, "Well, I'll be in your area on Friday, as opposed to they want it today. Neryk Davydov   37:03 They actually learn, and actually sometimes I have a holiday and I don't go there. Let's say holiday shows up on Tuesday, and if I didn't show up on Tuesday and I showed up on Wednesday, they hold hold to me and they tell me, "Hey, what happened with you? You were not here on Tuesday. You were supposed to be on Tuesday. So what I do is before I go on vacation, this is how I manage my customers. Before I go on vacation for one week, I tell them, "Hey, listen, I'm going on vacation next week. Let's make double the order. That way, they have enough product before and after I come back from the trip, Michael Hingson  37:41 okay, and so it's it's all about customer management. It's all about setting expectations, which is one of the most important things that people generally tend not to learn about sales. It's all about setting appropriate customer expectations. But when they when they get your information and you set proper expectations, and then you come through. They learn they can trust you, which is what is what's most important about sales, anyway. Neryk Davydov   38:11 Correct. Michael Hingson  38:11 Well, so when you're selling to different customers, are are you basically of the opinion that you can take any product and and make it successful, or or how does that work? Neryk Davydov   38:30 So what I it depends. First of all, I need to be connected with the product, and if it adds value to my customers, I will sell the product. And there's something that I teach that I learned actually from one of my trainers, and I use it all the time. And there's a few things the way I qualify the people for the product. It's called form. It's family, friends, where they're from. You get to know more about them. Then you do the occupation. You find out what they do for a living, and then you do the recreation. Recreation is what do they do for fun? You need to connect with your person, and then the message is where you would send them the message and see if your product will qualify, and you'll be able to sell it to them. If it doesn't connect with them, what I would usually do is I build that contact relationship, and if I have somebody that I connect can connect them with, I would just connect them with that person and add value. And it's amazing because later on in the future they'll call you back and they'll connect you with somebody else. Michael Hingson  39:42 Have you ever had a product that you sold where it really just didn't fit in some particular person's environment? That is, it wasn't going to work for them. And if so, how did you how did you handle that? Neryk Davydov   39:59 Yes. So I have that in my distribution business because what I do is I create brands and I have to put it out there. So let's say if the customer didn't buy it, I put it on consignment to first test if the product is there, and then some people they trust you so much because all the other products that I put in there they became successful, so they're like, "Okay, this product will work too. So what I do is I sell to them, but I also guarantee them. So if the product doesn't sell, I could Michael Hingson  40:29 always switch it for another product, and that's what they like about me. You know, it's always guaranteed that if my product doesn't sell, I'll switch it for something else that will sell, because every area is actually different, so you can't analyze one in Broward and one in Miami or one in Fort Lauderdale or Kindle, and it'll sell different ways. You know, different personalities will know about this product, and different people won't. I've had products that we sold when I worked for a manufacturer, and I've gone to customer sites where they ask us to come out and give a presentation about what we do. But I ask enough questions that I really learn before we even start our demonstrations and our discussions, whether my product will work, and what I've done in the past is, when I when I figure out what works and what doesn't work, I'll still go through my presentation, but at the end I'll say you may have already figured out that our product won't work for you, and here's why. On the other hand, here's what will work for you, but it is all about. It is totally about developing trust. Neryk Davydov   41:46 Correct. All right. Michael Hingson  41:48 And the the end result of that is they'll come and order from us when they know that we have a product that will solve their problem because we've developed that trust, which is of course part of our brand as well. Having a having a brand that that basically says you can trust this person means a lot. Neryk Davydov   42:11 Yes. Michael Hingson  42:12 So, how do you start to develop a relationship with a new customer or prospect? How do you start that process? Neryk Davydov   42:21 So the the thing is we form them, and then the other thing is there's something called the four type personalities, and most of it, when you sell a product to to a person, you actually get connected with that same person who has the same personality as you, and so there's four types of personalities: one, red, blue, yellow, and green. Red would be like leaders, decision makers. They take action quick. They go getters. They're number one. So how would you approach them, or how would you sell to them? You get straight to the point. You show them results. You get to the top. They want exclusivity. That's how you would get to them. Then there's blue type personality, which is all about having fun, outgoing. They're visionaries. They're dreamers. They talk a lot. They like attention. So how do you sell to them? You make sure to greet them, to be social, have a drink, go on vacation, have fun with the friends. It's all about that. Then you have the yellow person, which is all about helping people, and those are people are actually connected with churches, synagogues. They don't have money because they give it all away, and they got lots of friends because their friends actually trust them. And how would you sell to them? Well, you sell to them by giving the products and promoting it towards their friends, not even them. And and you never lead them with money because they don't care about money, and they care about testimonies. Is this really working, or is it not? And then you have the green people, which is the analytical people. Those are people that actually play a lot of chess for long-term game, and they like to analyze. They like to do detail orientation before they take action. They need lots of information. They got money, but they don't like to spend it. They suffer from analysis over paralysis. They take time to decide long time chess. And how do you sell them? You give them enough information. You give them date, location, who, what, where, when, why, and they need to really trust you in order to do business with you, and that's how you qualify which person will be good for that particular product that you're selling. But you need to speak their language. Michael Hingson  44:59 Yeah, it's always all. About communicating with the customer and making sure that you're communicating in a way that they understand. Neryk Davydov   45:05 Correct. Michael Hingson  45:06 Yeah. Have you ever had a customer that you should just never really develop a trusting relationship with them? Neryk Davydov   45:16 Yes. Yes. Well. Well, actually, when you have a lot of customers out there, and time after time, when you see you have challenges, you say, you know, it's not worth my time. I think I could let go of this customer and find a better customer. Yeah, you know, because sometimes you don't want that headache. Michael Hingson  45:38 Do you find though that you've got some people that you want to make that decision, but then they just won't let you go. Neryk Davydov   45:47 Yeah, you have those. Like for example, I have a I have customers that give me $1,000 orders, and then you have those customers that'll give you $100 orders, but they're like pain in the butt, you know. But the whole thing is you're in the area, and the funny thing is when you're slow with those big clients, and you want to do some sales, you go back to those little customers once a month that really give you a headache sometimes. Michael Hingson  46:16 You have to figure out when to fish and when you cut bait or or stop working with them, and you know it's it would be nice to have every customer decide to work with you and so on. But but it doesn't always happen, Neryk Davydov   46:31 right? Right. So what you do is you just build on more customers, and as you have built more customers, just let go of the other ones that really are not worth your time. Yeah, Michael Hingson  46:44 and if it becomes worth your time, they're going to show you that. Neryk Davydov   46:48 That's right. Michael Hingson  46:49 Yeah. So I'm just looking at and thinking about what you've said, and I guess one of the questions that really comes to mind Is and you talked about this with the different kinds of people that you have the the yellow, the green, and and so on. Do you find that there are a lot of people who just lock themselves into selling to people who are like them, as opposed to people who are are different? Neryk Davydov   47:19 Oh, definitely, definitely. That's why you see a lot of these salespeople. They'll do a lot of sales based on their personality, but then they're leaving 90% of the people that was that could be sold, but because they don't know how to connect with them the right way, they don't speak their language, sales communication, and they lose all their sales because of that, Michael Hingson  47:41 yeah, Neryk Davydov   47:42 yeah. Like for example, my colors when I started this industry, I was actually green. I was very analytical because I played chess, and my first major was computer science, and I transformed that into international business, and my 80% was green. But now I have all different colors more dominant. I have the red, which is the leader, and I have still green, but I also have the blue and yellow here and there. And like for example, my wife, she's blue. So what happens with that is you have to know how to communicate with her, you know. And the way I communicate with her, it's all about let's go have fun or this and that. You know, it's a different communication. Yeah, Michael Hingson  48:32 and and that makes sense. So, going back to money management, when do you? When should a person start to manage their money now, or when they actually have money to manage, Neryk Davydov   48:42 right? So that's a good one. I actually have an amazing story on that-the ice cream story. So this little girl goes with her daddy, and she says, "Daddy, daddy, I want that ice cream. So daddy gives her a scoop of ice cream, and she's about to eat it, and that scoop of ice cream falls down on the floor. So, Daddy, what is he gonna do? He's gonna buy another ice cream, right? So he goes to the truck and he says, "Can I have another ice cream? And the and the little daughter says, "I want that, dad, daddy, which is three scoops of ice cream. And she says, and the dad says, "No, I'm not gonna put you up for failure. So the same thing with money management. If you know how to manage your money now with $100, God will give you a lot more money because now He knows you know how to manage your money. It's not about saying I have a million dollars and then I will manage the money. It's when you have $100 and you know how to manage it. You'll get 1000s and millions of dollars coming to you. Michael Hingson  49:47 Well, and the ice cream story is is definitely a a good story. How do you then equate that or or translate that to when you when you start to get a lot of money? How do you stay disciplined so that you continue to manage that money rather than letting it overwhelm you and you you waste a lot of time and effort? Neryk Davydov   50:11 Right. So if you do do the jar system, you'll be able to diversify all that money, where you could have when somebody comes to you and he says, "Can you give a donation? And you say yes because I already have a jar separate just for that donation. If you want to go on vacation with your family, you're gonna have that jar that has 10% that you could go on vacation. So I remember one of our first trip that we went to. It was a Bora Bora trip. That trip cost us $11,000 wholesale price for one week to go to Bora Bora. If I would have had that mindset that I have all my money in one basket, I would say I can't afford that trip. But because I had the jar set aside for that vacation, it was just piling up, piling up, and we went to Bora Bora for $11,000 in one week. Yeah. So you'll be able to manage your money the right way, and you can have money coming in as an investment as well. Because like one of the jar, it's called FFA, which is you have the money work for you instead of you working for the money, which is that's how you create passive income and you diversify. You put in real estate, stocks, crypto, and just let it run and compound interest and different way. And as you have more golden gooses coming in, you'll be able to diversify more and more into Michael Hingson  51:41 it. Do you find that you get or you observe a lot of businesses, and you can take ideas from one business and bring it into your business? Neryk Davydov   51:52 Oh, definitely, definitely, and that's what I have done with different businesses out there. And just like the bishop in chess, you have two bishops. You have a black bishop that holds the white squares, and then you have another bishop that holds the black squares. So white and black squares, and they control the whole board. And sometimes, when you go into a different industry and you see that successful, you take that business and you put it into your business, and then it just becomes success. It's very easy. Michael Hingson  52:27 You may have to modify it or move or or change something about it, but the whole point is to be meticulous and be observant enough to figure out how to make that business model something that works for you, Neryk Davydov   52:42 correct, correct. Like for example, what we did is, I'll tell you a story with Ovato. We had this brewing company up in New York, and every Thursday they would charge people $5 to come in and do their event, and for the concert and everything. So what we did is we created them a wallet, a a merchant wallet, and we said, go ahead, and every person that comes in, let them just come in and create a wallet, and you get them in for free. So with that happens, we created a whole loyalty program for them, and instead of them making only 100 $500 profit, they actually made $2,000 profit with us. So what we did is we took something they really have, but we added something else into it, like Ovato, and then they saw a huge success because now they're creating a loyalty customers, and they're making profit, and then what happened is the next day the waiters would go around and they would tell them, "Hey, would you have ovato? And let's say if they had a vato, all they had to do is just increase more ovato coins into it, and they would get a free chip that gives them a free beer on top of that, Michael Hingson  54:02 okay, Neryk Davydov   54:03 and now they created a whole loyalty rewards program that helps them to get customers, and then they could create their own campaigns as well to bring more customers and let them come back. Michael Hingson  54:18 You say that you like to reward action takers. Tell me more about that. Neryk Davydov   54:23 So yes. So like for example, if you see the the picture behind me, we put a gift card. It's a $5 gift card. So and all you have to do is just scan that QR code and create a wallet. And the minute they create the wallet, I will send them $5 as a gift, and that's what we like about action takers. And by the way, my book called Branded Riches on Amazon. If you get that book and you do the jar system, the six jar system, just read that chapter. You will see your financial will change. It will transform. I mean, my daughter is doing it, and she's making passive income already because of the jar system that I taught her when she was four years old. And yeah, so they could go there, or they could go to ovatoCoin.com and create get the wallet for free, and I would send them $5, and our company will actually have a video there that will start teaching them on how to invest into Ovato, or or if you're a business owner, it's gonna actually help you how to create a loyalty rewards program on top of that. Michael Hingson  55:42 So the QR code takes you to ovatocoin.com. Neryk Davydov   55:46 Correct. Michael Hingson  55:47 Okay, I ask that because some of us aren't going to be able to easily scan the QR code. Okay. So ovato is a v a t o Neryk Davydov   55:58 a v a t o and then coin.com.com correct Michael Hingson  56:04 okay great well I hope people will do that take advantage of it and that they will go and and also get your book branded riches which is which is pretty cool so that's available on Amazon and wherever books are sold, Neryk Davydov   56:22 yes, and we also have an audio that we just launched, Brandon Rich's audio as well. Michael Hingson  56:27 Okay, well, great. Well, I want to thank you for being here. This has been fun. It validates a lot of things that I've felt about sales for years, and I really appreciate you taking the time to be here, and I think you've offered a lot of good insights and a lot of good ideas that people can use, and I hope that they will. So I want to thank you for that, and I want to thank all of you for being here and listening to Neric today. We'd love to hear from you. Please feel free to email me at michael [email protected], a c c e s s i b e.com. Nerrk, if people want to reach out to you, how do they do that? Neryk Davydov   57:06 They could find me on they could find me on LinkedIn, and it says Neryk N E R Y K Davydov Michael Hingson  57:15 D A V Y D O V. Neryk Davydov   57:18 Correct. Michael Hingson  57:19 Okay. Well, I hope people will, and I hope they'll reach out to you wherever you're listening or watching our podcast today. I hope that you'll give us a five star rating. But more important than a rating, please give us a review. People really value hearing and seeing good reviews about people's podcasts, and we hope that people are are doing that, and we'll continue to do that. So, the five star rating is great, but give us a review. We appreciate that as well. And anyone out there observing the podcast today, and Neryk, you as well. If you know anyone else who ought to be on our podcast, we would love it if you would introduce us. We're always looking for more people who will be willing to come on the podcast and tell their stories, but for now, I would just like to thank you once again for being here, and we appreciate it very much. And I want to thank you for your time. So thank you, Neryk Davydov   58:12 thank you, Michael. Yeah, definitely, you're unstoppable. Michael Hingson  58:19 Thank you for being here with me on Unstoppable Mindset, I hope today's conversation left you with a fresh perspective, a new insight, or at least something worth thinking about. If you're ready to go deeper into the ideas that shape how we see ourselves and others, I have a free gift for you. Head over to MichaelHingson.com and download my free ebook, Blinded by Fear. It explores the invisible beliefs that hold us back and shows you how to reframe them so you can move forward with clarity and confidence. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review and share this show with someone who can use a reminder that growth starts with mindset. When people think differently, we all move forward together. Thanks again for listening. Keep learning, keep questioning, and keep choosing to live with an unstoppable Mindset.

A diagnosis can change your life, but it does not have to decide what comes next. My guest Paul Bugeja has built a life shaped by curiosity, career change, travel, creativity, and a determination to keep moving forward. Paul lives with facioscapulohumeral muscular dystrophy, or FSHD, a condition he calls his “dark angel.” We talk about how disability has influenced his choices without defining them, why staying active matters to him, and how personal agency has helped him face uncertainty without becoming trapped by fear. Paul also shares his path from acting and writing into journalism and digital media, where he now works as a quizmaster. We explore disability advocacy, media accessibility, the role of AI in journalism, and the danger of losing critical thinking. Paul’s story reminds us that resilience is not about denying challenges. It is about understanding them while continuing to choose how we live. Highlights: 01:10 – How moving often helped Paul learn to adapt. 12:15 – How a gym visit led to his FSHD diagnosis. 20:39 – Why disability gave Paul a stronger drive to live fully. 22:53 – How knowledge of his condition gave him more agency. 38:35 – Why accessible media still has room to improve. 45:57 – How staying present helps Paul manage worry and fear. About the Guest: Working as a quizmaster for a major media organisation isn’t somewhere I could have predicted I’d end up professionally, but, then again, life has taken so many twists and turns it doesn’t surprise me this is where I currently find myself. Despite early aspirations to be an actor, I completed a double degree in Arts and Commerce at the University of Melbourne, with the final year spent on exchange at UC Berkeley, California. On my return to Australia, not to be denied, the ever-persistent actor in me got me admission to the prestigious Victorian College of the Arts Drama School: the decade or so following saw me immersed in the challenging but exciting life of the struggling actor. This period was also the launching pad into studies in writing, editing, journalism and screenwriting, which I did as I worked in book publishing and wrote half a dozen books, even as I edged into the rapidly evolving professional world of content, digital marketing and journalism. Throughout this entire time, I’ve lived alongside and managed my “dark angel”—a diagnosis of facioscapulohumeral muscular dystrophy—which has only served to galvanise me further to live a life less ordinary along the road less travelled … And that has made all the difference. Ways to connect with Paul**:** LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/peebee/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:04 What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe? Welcome to Unstoppable Mindset, where inclusion, diversity, and the unexpected meet. I'm your host, Michael Hingston, speaker, author, and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead, and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head-on, and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear. Together, we focus on mindset, resilience, and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Hi, everyone. I'd like to thank you once again for coming to another episode of Unstoppable Mindset. And if you're new to the podcast, we hope you enjoy our episode today. We're glad you're here wherever you may happen to be. Today we are communicating a long way away. We're communicating with Melbourne, Australia, to Paul Bugeja, and Paul is fondly known as a quizmaster. We're going to have to find out more about that, but he's had a lot of interest in acting and media and such things as that, and has had clearly a pretty adventurous life. And again, I'm sure we're going to hear a lot about a lot of that today. So, Paul, welcome to Unstoppable Mindset. We're really glad you're here. Paul Bugeja  01:44 Thank you for having me, Michael. Michael Hingson  01:46 So why don't we start? I love to do this with the early Paul, kind of growing up and how things all got started. If you remember back that far, or at least as far back as you remember, or what you were told anyway. Paul Bugeja  01:59 You know, pretty standard like childhood story for me. Grew up in the green leafy sort of suburbs of Melbourne. You know, did all the things that kids do in their growing up years. My my mother actually divorced my father quite young for me, so that was a little bit of a a critical sort of point for a child to sort of, you know, have to grapple with, but um, it was pretty smooth, and you know, um, it didn't really disrupt my childhood, except it meant that I moved around a lot when I was quite young. So I probably moved about seven or eight times by the time I was maybe eight years old. Um, but I think, in a way, that that that sort of has worked for me because it meant that even as a young child, I had to learn to adapt and change and evolve very quickly. Particularly when it came to meeting people, and you know, as a child, obviously making friends-that's one of the trickiest parts as a kid sometimes. So I think that actually stood me in good stead in in that regard, yeah. Michael Hingson  03:04 Well, I I didn't have to move a whole lot growing up. We moved from Chicago to California when I was five and stayed in the same house since college. I have moved a bunch of times, but those things happen. I understand what you're saying. I'm I'm used to it, but am am of the opinion that I'd rather not move again. It is a lot of work to move, and now also it's just me. My wife passed away two almost two and a half years ago, so I don't want to pack and move again. But yeah, well, we're in a house that we built, and and so we built it really around her because she's in a wheelchair her whole life. So it's an accessible house, but it's a very comfortable house. So I I have no complaints, and and the dog and the cat seem to like it as well. So we're here. Paul Bugeja  04:01 It's a win for everyone, and I think look, that's that's a really interesting. I had this very similar conversation with a friend yesterday about there's a time to put down roots and there's a time to be a you know a rolling stone, and and for some people that's at different times in their life, you know. So I I can understand why you would have chosen to find your comfy spot to settle into and enjoy. Michael Hingson  04:23 Well, and I have a good mortgage rate and all that, so yeah, we're happy with with things the way they are. And as long as the dog and the cat are happy, I can't complain a bit. Paul Bugeja  04:33 Excellent, excellent. Michael Hingson  04:34 But but now you're and and you you're not moving as much around anymore. Paul Bugeja  04:40 Sort of the opposite, actually. I think, like, to to go back to what we were originally discussing. Like, I think having moved so much as a younger person has meant I've lived a life that's almost constantly moving. Like, there certainly have been periods where I've lived for reasonably long periods in the one place, but particularly over the past. We maybe 10 to 12 years or so. I've moved like literally maybe 10 to 12 times. Like it's becoming, Michael Hingson  05:09 it Paul Bugeja  05:10 almost becomes a bit addictive. Sort of the ability to to be transportable when your professional life allows you and your personal life allows you as well. Michael Hingson  05:18 Yeah, I can understand that. For me, I don't want to go through all the rigors of packing and finding a new home and all that, so we're good. But but it it's okay because I can go anywhere from here, and so that works out pretty well. So I'm I'm content, and that that's the way it it should be. So we'll see how it all goes. But I'm glad that you did well, so you grew up, had kind of a normal life, even though you moved around a lot. Yeah, did all the things that that that kids do growing up, and so on. And where did you go to college, or did you? Paul Bugeja  05:53 Yeah, so I my original, I've I was a bit of a perpetual student for probably you know the first several decades as an adult, my original degree was from the University of Melbourne, which is one of the sort of larger universities in both Melbourne and Australia, and I did a double degree in arts and commerce. But you know, I had long wanted to be an actor, and so originally, like when I finished high school, my my intention was to audition for drama school. But my mother very wisely convinced me to go to university first, and then check that out. And if I didn't like it, then maybe audition for drama school a bit later on. And it was, as mothers can be on most occasions, very sagely advice from her, because the thing that she wasn't aware of was that even though I I definitely enjoyed the academic aspect of my studies at MLB Uni, it has a very strong theater department as well, and very big names have actually been through there and gone on to bigger and better things, namely Kate Blanchett. She was one of my colleagues back in the day. So you know, it was a it was a proving ground for talent. And so I did a lot of theater during my my studies at the University of Melbourne while completing the academic side as well. So I never quite lost that sort of underlying desire to maybe go on and and study acting and maybe do some acting. I actually completed the final year of my degree at Cal at UC Berkeley, which was an amazing experience, and sort of also launched me into the next part of my life. So that that was at a time when you know, like I think in a lot of ways, more and more students were traveling between countries to study. It was becoming a real thing to study overseas, so it was such an amazing experience to finish at Cal. Michael Hingson  07:48 So, do you keep in touch with Kate at Paul Bugeja  07:52 all? Haven't seen Kate in probably maybe 20 years or so. We kept in contact during the beginning of her career, of course, and then you know that life has taken her to such places that it's almost impossible to keep Michael Hingson  08:07 touch, right? Paul Bugeja  08:08 That's right. But you know, I dare say, if I think she's probably maintained the sort of personality and character that she had when I knew her, which would mean that if I bumped into her on the street and I said hello and gave her a bit of a nudge about where we knew each other from. She'd be the first one to lean into that and and you know be quite happy to reminisce on old times as you know she's not an aloof sort of person. I think that's my feel about her, even given her amazing success. Michael Hingson  08:37 I've never had that impression of her either, so I I'm with you. Well, that's pretty cool. What What took you to Berkeley for your last year? Paul Bugeja  08:45 Yeah, so I actually started working during my studies on campus at the university, and I worked in the international student office. So I was dealing with a lot of incoming study abroad and exchange students, which meant I began to have a real desire to do the same thing myself, and initially I was looking at a couple of other universities like Georgetown. I think NYU was one of the options, and I actually met a guy from Cal who was like, "You should come to Berkeley and study. It's an amazing institution. You'll love California. It's so similar to Australia, and I'd I'd I'd actually been to California before my first overseas trip when I was 19, and so I had a taste of California already. So initially, I was looking at the whole sort of Cal system, the whole you know UC system. So I looked at UCLA, UC San UCSJ maybe and anyway yeah and and then I fell and I fell in Berkeley as the final one just because what a great city to live outside of you know San Francisco's such a beautiful city and and yeah so I ended up spending an entire year there which was just like you know life defining. Michael Hingson  09:57 What'd your mom think of that? Paul Bugeja  10:00 Yeah, typical of mum's. There was a lot of tears at the airport, but you know, and this was you know like at a time when social media was really not even happening, so it was all about the phone calls regularly. But she was happy. She's I'm very lucky in that, even though I'm an only child, mum's not a clingy a clingy mum, you know, she has always encouraged me to just go out and do everything that I possibly can, and and she would never, she would rarely, you know, get get in the way of me living out my life and my dreams. Michael Hingson  10:33 Do you still? Is she still here? Paul Bugeja  10:35 She is. Yep, she's um 78, so she's you know I'm still a youngish older person, and even though we don't, we sort of you know like see each other as much as maybe I'd like because we don't live in the same place. You know, we we talk every two days or so on the phone, and I stay in regular contact. And yeah, it's it's still a very very strong relationship. Michael Hingson  10:56 That's cool. That that's a good thing though. So you you went to Berkeley. You were here. You were out here in California for a year, and then what happened? Paul Bugeja  11:05 Well, I actually I bounced back to Australia, feeling very encouraged to to follow my acting pursuits because I I did a couple of shows at when I was at Cal. I did one drama class as well in the drama department, you know, made some lifetime friendships and and felt very connected to myself as an actor again. And so, even though originally my plans were to apply to become a diplomat through the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, the acting thing was a bit too strong. So I came back and and felt a little not torn, but certainly I had to I had to weigh up the competing desire to want to be an actor against the fact that I had a great degree that I could maybe go on and do something completely different with. So in fact, I spent a year thinking about that and ended up quite on a different track and enrolled in a master's of environmental studies, which you know was something that interested me definitely. And but decided that I would, in addition to drama school as well, which I did do, and I got into. So I did one year of that master's, and then I went on to study at the Victorian College of the Arts, which is one of the big three drama schools in Australia, and so I finally got to that took that circuitous route to drama school, despite my mum's earlier advice, and she was happy because you know I got there under my own auspices in terms of I'd made a decision as an adult to finally get there, rather than maybe as an excited teenager who you know could obviously do so many things, and so I had both the academic degree, and now I was into a program that I'd always wanted to sort of be involved with. Michael Hingson  12:49 Right. Well, and and that that's fine. That makes sense. Yes. So I'm not sure when to bring this up. So I'll bring it up now. Sure. Tell us about your dark angel. Paul Bugeja  13:01 Yeah, absolutely. So probably in my in my in my late 20s, I started working at a university in back at University of Melbourne. Actually, my old alma mater, and by then, you know, I was actually you know sort of I I was doing some acting, you know, some professional acting, not a lot of it, but enough to sort of be remain interested. So I needed a part time job on the side, you know, to to keep it going as most actors do. And when I started working at the university, I became very interested in fitness as well. I joined a gym and started going to the gym there and made some sort of friends with the local personal trainers. And one day I was doing some training and on one of the big, big sort of bouncy medicine balls that you can sit on for balance and training work, and one of the instructors came up to me and said, "Do you realize that your scapular wings? And I was firstly thinking, "Well, what the hell is my scapular? And then I sort of made sense that it was my shoulders, you know. And and I said, "What do you mean? He said, "Well, when you do upper body workouts, your scapula has quite a lot of movement in it, and it's quite visible. Now, I've always been a very thin person, like I've always sort of been. We've joked about being a tall, skinny dude, you know, and and so I I'd never thought anything about maybe the fact that my my shoulder blades were a bit more prominent. I figured that was because I was a slim person, you know. Of course, so he recommended I see a physiotherapist, and I did. I saw a sports physio in case I'd injured myself or there was some underlying issue. After a couple of sessions with a sports physio. I was referred to a neurologist because the sports physio had some inklings about it may be being a neurological condition potentially of some kind, but had no idea what it might be. And this is when I guess my dark angel first really. Began alerting me to its presence in the background of my life, and I'll explain why I call it my dark angel in a moment. Yeah, the neurologist and I did some tests, and I went in for a biopsy, a muscle biopsy, and I was diagnosed with one of the variants of muscular dystrophy, which is fascioscapiohumeral muscular dystrophy, so it affects the face, the humerus, and the scapula, but in general affects the muscles across the body. It's a degenerative neuromuscular disease. It's not that common; about one in 8000 have it. So you know, enough people have it that it's out there. Some people live with live with it their entire lives and don't know they have it for the reasons that I've just sort of elaborated on, which are it can it can be there but be so minor that you just think it's because you're a slim person or you don't have much you don't go to the gym so you don't work out so your muscles aren't growing or whatever. So yeah, and I was not that thrown by it at the time. It was it was in our family, so it wasn't that much of a surprise to me that maybe I had it. Given that another family member, even though they're quite distant on the family tree for me, also had it, and yeah, I began to just think about you know like what life would be like with this condition, and you know began to have regular sort of checks with the neurologist and you know other sort of allied health professionals around how to manage that. Luckily, it was very my and still is very mild in terms of how severe that it can be. But as I sort of began thinking more about my professional life. I I actually took on a an editing and writing degree and a screenwriting degree as I started to move away from acting because I figured I am a creative person. I love writing and I want to improve my craft. I was interested in journalism as well and I could do that as part of this degree. Paul Bugeja  16:58 So I started studying and that then led to me actually writing a couple of books, four or five books, working as an editor, and then at one point I began thinking, I think I need to write my own book about my journey with this condition, or you know, disability, whatever you want to call it. And I had watched the TV show Dexter, which you may or may not have watched. Yep, and Dexter talks about his dark passenger. You know, as and that's the the sort of I mean, it's a weird correlation. I know in some ways, but that's the serial killer in him. That's his dark passenger. But it really resonated as um this idea of there being this sort of passenger in your life. You know, for whatever reason, whatever it is, and I didn't obviously want to steal that sort of figurative term, but I began thinking about a dark angel instead because, for me, it's a double thing. I mean, I was whatever Catholic. I'm not a practicing Catholic anymore, but you know, the notions of angels around us is something you know we all sort of think about, I guess. But the notion of my scapular wing and those being wings as well was very sort of resonated with me, and so I began feeling that for me my entire life this dark angel had been somewhere in the background, very very far in the background to the point where I wasn't even really aware of that dark angel, and then of course when the diagnosis came along, the dark angel began to make its presence more known, and yeah, and and then over time, I'm very, I live with, you know, like anyone with any sort of disability or chronic medical condition, like you live with it 24/7, and some days it's more of a burden, other days you don't not even aware of it, but you have to learn to live with it, and and so I now feel like I have this sort of dance with the dark angel, I like to call it, who sometimes is more present in my life and sometimes much more in the background. Michael Hingson  18:53 So, what kinds of things does it sort of limit you, or what what do you have to do to to make sure you don't let it get too much of a control over you. Paul Bugeja  19:04 Sure. So for me, the biggest thing I ever did was start going to the gym. You know, I did that just out of pure practicality because there was a gym on campus. It was very easy to join it. It was very close to go to on my lunch break, and so I've now maintained a really rigorous gym schedule, even though my upper body strength is quite weak and limited. I've been able to, I think, the my GP and say allied healthcare professionals like physios and exercise physiologists and occupational therapists have all commented that my gym program is one of the things that may you know this it's a may but may have prevented the condition progressing more severely than it has. So staying fit has been really important. I think by nature, I like to call myself a pragmatic optimist or optimistic pragmatist. By nature, I'm a practical person. I sort of feel as though, unlike I mean, look, everyone manages the news of some sort of health situation differently. You know, some people it can lay low, and I understand why because it can be very confronting, and every condition has a different set of limitations, like you know, it can be quite severe for some people. Like my my cousin had a different form of muscular dystrophy, Duchenne muscular dystrophy, which meant that he was in a wheelchair from the age of five and died at the age of 28. So you know, like like in my case, I feel blessed on some level that my condition is slowly deteriorating, but I do think that I'm lucky that I have enough of a practical and positive attitude about not letting it. I don't call, I never ignore it or or deny it, but I call about. I just resist it. The resistance is there. Like I I push back against it. So mentally, I try to stay positive physically. I try to stay healthy, but you know it does limit me. I have part of the condition. I have something called foot drop, which means that my feet catch a lot as I walk. So I trip a lot. So I I have damaged elbows and knees a lot because of that. So as a consequence, I have to be conscious when I walk. It's not just a. It's not like for most people, walking is an unconscious action. Of course, for me, it's a conscious action to ensure that I trip less. And of course, as I get older, tripping becomes a thing as you get older anyway, because you know your muscle tone changes and you know all kinds of things. So you know, it's about almost in a way you have to become. You do have to be aware of it all the time, and you have to manage it all the time. But that doesn't mean it has to become a burden. I think in many ways it's pushed me the other way, which is it's made me have a lust for life. It's made me want to do more. It's it's probably pushed me to be more nomadic while I can be, just in case there's a point where I can't be, and that sounds a little bit sad, and I mean probably in some ways, but I see that as a positive. Like a really small example I can give you is whenever I visit my mum, like I don't drive, so I use public transport like trains and busses and and the like. And if I catch a train to to go visit my mum, she always insists I'll come and pick you up at the at the train station, rather than you walk to my place, and I insist every time I'm going to walk because while I can walk, I want to walk. You know, so I don't. It's not. I reject. I don't reject her kindness, and I understand it. But it's me saying to the dark angel, "No, I will. Does she? Michael Hingson  22:36 Does she understand Paul Bugeja  22:38 it? I think so on some level, but she still Michael Hingson  22:41 wants to come and get you. Of course, Paul Bugeja  22:43 she does. Of course, there can be the tiniest trickle of rain, and she's like, "Oh, you can't walk in that rain. You know, I've got an umbrella, mum. No, no, no. You know, it's all that stuff. Um, it's it's delightful of her, and I'm glad, and I'll always expect the offer in those situations. But um, yeah, no, she um, you know, unfortunately, and I think a lot of parents will who pass on genetic conditions because this is a genetically passed on condition for me. She feels a sense of guilt about you know having passed on through her line, and so I think she we've talked about it a few times, and it's not a heavy weight on her shoulders, but she has a sense of it. Yeah. Michael Hingson  23:20 Well, I I appreciate that. What was it like when you first got the diagnosis? Though, did it did did it depress you? Did it kind of knock you on your ear in in any way, or did you really decide almost right from the beginning? Okay, this is here, but I can deal with Paul Bugeja  23:37 it. Yeah, it look, you know. So I'm writing a book about this, as I was saying at the moment, and in the in the chapter of the book that I'm writing, I think I wrote something along the lines of life just moved on. You know, like there was no discernible difference. Like I didn't feel physically any difference because there was no physical difference. But for me, I mean, you know, I I work in the media and I've worked in the knowledge industries of any kind for quite some time. Knowledge is power, you know. And and I would rather know about something and then be able to to to have some agency about how to act on it than to bury my head in the sand. Or, but by the same token, I can understand that knowledge can really throw some people. And you know, I have a friend, for example, who I was diagnosed with MS, and that can be an awful condition to be diagnosed with because it can progress very quickly. And for her, the knowledge wasn't great. You know, it's it's been a very big challenge for her. But you know, five years on, now that she has much more knowledge about it because she's had to live with it, she's going the opposite way. So you know, everyone is different, but for me, the knowledge actually catapulted me forward rather than weighed me down. Michael Hingson  24:46 Well, that was a choice that you had to make, or that you got to make, and you made it. And you're you're choosing to move forward with life, which is great. Paul Bugeja  24:55 Yeah, yeah. I feel lucky. As I said, I know. Everyone can can make that choice because of their own set of circumstances, and I do feel lucky about some of my circumstances. And you know, so I don't think everyone can necessarily be that practical or optimistic about things. But I encourage people to you know take a breath and and try and sit with whatever it is that they have to manage at any particular time, because you know people. A lot of people have a lot heavier challenges than I do, and they meet them as well. So it's possible to meet your challenges, I think, even if it limits you still. Michael Hingson  25:36 Well, so it's something that you live with, and so on. And I appreciate that. What what makes you get out of bed every day and and move forward, or is that what what you've been describing? Paul Bugeja  25:48 Look, I think I mean you know I'm I'm an I'm a lark, so I'm at about 430 in the morning, and I'm a Monday person, and I had this conversation with someone just this past Monday at the gym who you know dragged herself into the gym, and she was you know can't be bothered. I hate Mondays so much, you know, blah blah blah. And I get all that, you know. People love their weekends and a break. I love, I love the beginning of a day, and I and I have no problems getting up because I love the thought of there being so much in front of me, you know. And and even as as I grow older, and and you know, life obviously begins to go into a different phase. I still feel there's so much ahead, and and and it sounds a little bit Pollyanna of me, maybe, and a little bit overly optimistic, and a little bit Hollywood. But you know, I feel so hungry for life, and and even though that doesn't mean my life is perfect by any means, and that every day is perfect, and that there are some days that are are challenging. I face that all the time, as do we all in our different ways. But I I just feel so eager for the things that I mean. I have a great professional life, I have a great personal life, I have great friends, I have a good family. You know, my health is fine given the situation. Doesn't mean it's perfect, like I just said. But I don't have much to complain about, really. So, really, getting up is each day is is not a hard thing for me. It's it's it's a joy most days. Michael Hingson  27:15 So, are you married? Paul Bugeja  27:17 No, single. And this is, and I often frame conversations with this because sometimes my friends say to me, "Gosh, you have a great life, and I say, "Yeah, but I chose to be single, to not have children, and to not have pets-the three big things that change the course of your life sometimes in a good way, quite often. But also, I have more choices ahead of me because I am single and childless and petless, you know. Michael Hingson  27:42 Yep. Paul Bugeja  27:43 But you know, I don't. I'm not. I don't. I don't feel. I feel like I could have made other choices around this, of course. And I don't think there is a right or a wrong choice. It's just you have to find the right choice for you, especially when it comes to these big life choices. Michael Hingson  27:59 Well, you know, and when I got married, my wife and I had discussions about children, and she felt that she didn't want to have a child because she was in a wheelchair, and she felt in her specific situation, it would have been a lot harder on the body, and she would have been in bed a whole lot during a pregnancy, and she was afraid she would lose a lot of the the upper body strength and so on that she had. And my belief was that was her choice to make, and so we we both decided that we didn't want children. We would very happily entertain our nieces and nephews and throw them out of the house at the end of the day and send them home, which worked out really well. Paul Bugeja  28:49 I can I can understand that choice, and I I certainly I always thought I would be a father to be to be honest about that. When I was in my late teens and early 20s, it was forefront of my mind. Even though I had all these other adventures planned, and I had a couple of opportunities, actually, probably in my 30s, where I could have chosen to go down that road. And yeah, around the time I was diagnosed, I began thinking what that might mean. Like, and I began to not fear passing on my my FSHD to my potential children, but because often it passes through the female to the male, so it's less likely to pass through me. But if I had a female child, I might have passed it on genetically to her, who then passed it on to my grandchild. And not that that should stop anyone ever wanting children, but to your point and and the way you and your wife discuss the situation, I I made a conscious decision that probably given the life choices I was making around my career as well and other and personal life, it might not be the best choice. So yeah, I can understand where where. If Speaker 1  30:04 you enjoy Unstoppable Mindset and would like to help us continue bringing these conversations to you each week, we've created a way for you to support the show. Your contribution helps us cover production costs and continue sharing stories, insights, and ideas that inspire people to live with purpose and possibility. If supporting the podcast feels right for you, you'll find the link in the show notes. Thank you for being part of the Unstoppable Mindset Community. Michael Hingson  30:36 So, in in your life, what is one of the well? What would be the greatest thing in your life, personal or professional, that you've experienced so far? Paul Bugeja  30:47 The greatest thing, yeah, it's a it's a great question. That's a Michael Hingson  30:52 toughie because there are probably several. Paul Bugeja  30:54 Yeah, no, there are, there are. I mean, you know, I think, and this will seem a little sort of not so great. I mean, as in not great. Sorry, but I think the the first job in journalism that I got, which was working for the Guardian, the Australian Mars said version of the Guardian, that was pretty amazing for me because I had I had thought, and it wasn't as a journalist. It was as a like a community sort of an audience sort of person, basically. So I wasn't writing and I wasn't generating content, but just to be finally in a media organization after probably 10 or 15 years of always thinking, God, I'd love to work in the media. I'm a real news hound. I love news. I love current affairs, and even though for some it was just getting a job, for me it was taking a step into something that I had thought about for a while, and finally, and you know, working for a really reputable and very well known masthead as well, that had a lot of credibility. So that was pretty exciting, and and that sort of set me on the path of, I think this is where I will stay now if I can. Even though, as you would know, the media is under a lot of pressure to sort of evolve with a lot of external threats to the way it works and and you know staying financially viable. So I've sort of put myself into a very hot pot, and I hope I'm not the frog that jumps out. But I don't think I will be. I think I've managed to forge a bit of a career now that will keep me going. So yeah, it's not a a life like sort of fireworks sort of moment, but it was a it was certainly the day that I got the phone call saying we'd we'd love you to come and join us was was you know very similar to that? I got the phone call from drama school saying you got into drama school. It was a real like everything felt lifted. You know the whole I felt like I was floating that day. Michael Hingson  32:52 Yeah, I'm with you. So what other kinds of jobs then did you progress to over time? Paul Bugeja  32:59 Yeah, so because because I was pursuing acting for for quite some time, probably for about 10 to 15 years, really. You know, I had to do what most actors do, which is work a lot of other jobs. You know, like you just have to. The work is never constant, even for the for the biggest actors in the world. You know, I mean, most of them obviously work constantly, but you know, like to be a working actor is is never let anyone say that being an actor is not a real job. It's a really hard job, you know. And so, I I worked for a long time in casual jobs. I worked in a lot of theaters in in like the sort of the ticketing sort of area of of theaters. So I worked at both the Sydney Opera House and the Victorian Art Center, two big theater. You would know the Sydney Opera House, obviously, but yeah, Victoria Arts Center is another big theater organization in Australia. And while I was doing that, I began doing some freelance editing as a book editor. This was where I really began getting interested in content and copy, and and I had the part-time job at the university while I was studying and sort of doing all these other casual things and acting, and a role came up working in digital sort of content with a large betting agency. So you know, sports betting, which is very big in Australia, and it was managing their blog, their sports blog. So lots of content about what's happening in all the different sports, but you know, sort of a marketing slash copy role. But it was my first foray into digital content, you know, and this was at a time when it was really starting to amp up, and that therefore, you know, made me really think much more about journalism and and wanting to pursue that. So that was sort of the springboard into working in digital marketing, working as a sub editor, and then sort of finally landing this role at the Guardian, which didn't last super long, unfortunately, because I was completing a master's in publishing and communications at the time, and discovered that I. I'd left I'd left Melbourne to move to Sydney to work in the role and had two subjects left and I'd been told by the university that I could complete them in Sydney, and then I was told by an administrator that that was not possible, so I had to leave my job at the Guardian to go back to Melbourne to finish the masters, which was fine to do, and I kept doing other casual kind of jobs and you know contract roles. Well, I did that, but it meant leaving the Guardian, which was a bit disappointing. But it meant I got my masters, which was really critical because again, that was more of a springboard onwards. In fact, I, as part of my masters, I went to China and did a an intensive class in Shanghai, and from that, got offered a role in China, in Shanghai, with a with a Chinese media company that that produced content for for the very big expat community in Shanghai, and I was about to leave to go to Shanghai to take up the role, and you'll you'll probably will have a wry smile, which was February 2020, and fortunately, not long after that, everything kind of went pear-shaped with COVID, and so had to. I mean, it's sort of lucky in a way because Shanghai had a pretty awful time during COVID, where it was a very strict lockdown. So I probably dodged a bit of a COVID bullet in that regard, even though Australia had its own share of lockdowns. But yeah, so that sort of threw a bit of a spanner in the works of what looked like the next part of my media career. But then, of course, you know, I'm a I'm a fatalist. I I run with fate. I I don't push back against the things that sort of maybe look like negatives or or take us off our path. Paul Bugeja  36:38 And I just feel like it's another another fork in the path that takes us on a on a route that will hopefully get us to where we were meant to be, and not taking that role meant, of course, about a year later, I saw the job with Stuff, which is the New Zealand media company that I currently work for, and that was the middle of 2021. It was based in Auckland. We were still in the middle of COVID, but I applied anyway because why not? And yeah, they offered me the role pending the borders opening, effectively. And luckily for me, there was a two-week window where New Zealand and Australia thought things were going to go okay, and the borders opened, and I jumped on the first flight out and got myself to Auckland, and then I started my current job, or actually a different version of my current job with stuff. Michael Hingson  37:27 And what is your your current job? Paul Bugeja  37:30 So I am currently I create digital content for stuff for stuff digital, as we're called now. I mostly create trivia quizzes, so fun daily quizzes that we have a very very dedicated audience for. People love a quiz. I also create a word puzzle called the Hard Word, which is an anagram kind of puzzle. I create that every day. I create a news quiz for them. I also help manage the community, the online community that interacts with with us as another part of my role, which is the role that I originally went to New Zealand for, but as a full time gig, and now it's just sort of part of my my role. So yeah, I am a quizmaster. I love it. I had previously worked in television quiz shows during my time in Australia when I was juggling other stuff, so I had a bit of a background in in quiz question writing and quiz research and verifying, and so I'm now really in such a wonderful job. But I always like to be very clear about this to people because it sounds like the best job in the world. Wow, sitting and making cool quizzes every day-it's a really involved job, and it it takes a lot of kind of like time to research and put together these quizzes because you know you're trying to please a very broad audience of from you know 15 year olds to 75 year olds. So you know, it's it's a it's a very involved job, even if it's a fun job, and so it does, you know, it it does still have a very critical kind of like professional aspect to it, even though it sounds like to some of my friends and and people who learn about it the best job in the world. Michael Hingson  39:17 Well, I'm sure it's a great job, but it is a clearly a challenging job. Have you ever encountered people who talk to you about making your your quizzes or trying to work with staff to make quizzes and some of the things they do more accessible? So, like people who are blind can solve the quizzes or work the quizzes and use screen readers and so on to do the same things that others do. Paul Bugeja  39:45 Excellent point. So yeah, I feel quite often when I'm making my quizzes that clearly they are for an audience that can access them very easily. You know, as opposed to an audience that might need assistance to access. Them and you know we do the the the basic stuff as we you know you must you know um like you know putting an alt tag so that um you know people who maybe are but are able to to use to access the quiz as a as a an audio rather than a video rather than a written um quiz but you know, I think you're right. And look, to be fair, I think you know the way that the media is going. The media is going very video oriented now, anyway. I think, which is a brilliant thing for people who do need have some access, because you know, with the video, of course, a video quiz, there'll be audio as well as visual, as well as the written word potentially. So there's a way that covers off all the bases, you know, or you know, many of the bases anyway. At the moment, you know, we are starting to bring in some minor changes, but I think going forward, it's pretty critical because you know the world is very aware that people do have some limitations in the way that they can access, especially digital content, and even though there are a lot of great forms of software that you can use to to make like your your life less limited by whatever you know sort of limitation you may have, it still isn't as good as it can be. And and I think certainly as someone with a disability, I'm an advocate for disability. You know, I'm on the board of a major disability organization in Australia. I'm on an engagement advisory committee for the same organization. I'm very pro and very much an advocate for ensuring that anyone with any form of disability can access and have as as great a life as possible, as untrammeled. I'm not untrammeled. That's the wrong word. As as as you know, as a life that has no barricades to them, basically. Michael Hingson  41:49 Well, the the reality is that crossword puzzles, for example, can be made accessible. Yep. And of course, I wouldn't expect the organization to suddenly produce Braille puzzles, but there are there are still ways Speaker 2  42:11 to do it Michael Hingson  42:11 to create audio, for example, kinds of things. And you mentioned the the value of video that only works if people truly put the appropriate descriptions in in audio form, the video, which a lot of people don't do, which is unfortunate, but it is possible to make to make them more accessible than they are. Paul Bugeja  42:36 Yeah, but it is a but it is a it is Michael Hingson  42:38 a challenge, and I hope that over time more more kinds of things will be accessible. I get the New York Times online, and a lot of what they do isn't nearly as accessible as it should be, and I can see how it it could be made more Accessible, but they haven't just been really willing to do it. And and ironically, a lot of the media has been one of the places where access has has truly not been addressed nearly like it it should be. And and the the result of that is that there are problems, and of course they say, well, things change so fast. They they do, except that it's all about coding and it's all about understanding programming and coding. And if you do it right, and if you know it, you can keep up either way. But you know, people don't necessarily do that. Paul Bugeja  43:38 Yeah, look, I agree, and I think you know. Look, without I'm not going to become a defender of the media, even though I'm part of it. But I think they definitely can do better as a as an entire sort of profession. I think that the tricky thing for the media at the moment is, I mean, you look at what happened this week. You know, 300 reporters, you know, sacked at the Washington Post. You know the media is under a lot of pressure to be financial, and that's not a great defense against not being accessible, mind you. But their mind is on survival at the moment, and that's an unfortunate thing because it means that they can't do the stuff that would actually benefit everyone, you know, their entire audience. So, not to defend it, but that's that's the only sort of rationale I can think of as to why they're not doing more. But that shouldn't stop them trying. That shouldn't stop them trying. Michael Hingson  44:32 Well, and I think that's really the issue: is that people do need to try, and people need to make an effort. And if they would, it would help a lot more than than it does today. Paul Bugeja  44:43 Agreed. Michael Hingson  44:44 So, if you could change one thing about your life, what would it be? Paul Bugeja  44:47 Not very much. Like I really love my life. You know, I I I even and this will sound quite odd. I even probably wouldn't change having a disability. You know, like it it who I am. It's it's in my. You know, it's it's so it's in my DNA. Like you can't get any deeper into someone than their DNA. You know, like of course I'd rather not have this, but it's it it it doesn't as we've discussed. It doesn't stop me. It doesn't limit me. It just modifies my life on the edges. It's Michael Hingson  45:16 just it's just part of you. Paul Bugeja  45:18 That's exactly right. And so I have to embrace that. You know, as you know, does anyone with any sort of situation that is slightly left of you know what people might call you know normal or ordinary, you know? And I, I always say I try to live my life less ordinary, you know, and and I think it's that attitude which really stands me in good stead because when you choose like I like as we discussed earlier, I'm in a position where I can make different choices to people who do have a partner, or do have kids, or do have a massive mortgage, or do have whatever you know job that keeps them in one place. But you know, you know the old saying about you make your own luck, right? And circumstance does change things definitely, and some circumstances are outside of our control. For example, getting having a genetic disability is outside of my control, but you know you do make your own luck as well. And I sort of feel that I am so about agency, and I'm so about you know like taking responsibility for your actions that I feel that everything about my life is because of the choices that I've made, and I want to own that. So you know why would I want to change any of that? In terms of, if I want to change it, then I will change it. So I think I have a great life. I'm healthy. I'm happy. I've got a you know like I was saying earlier, I have great friends, a good family, a great job. I'm able to you know like talk to people like this about things and and and like it's yeah life's pretty life's pretty good for me. Um, you know, there are things about the world I'd like to change, like as would we all, you know, like, um, but those things we can only sort of change on the edges, and I do that as much as I can as well. So, well, there are things that we don't Michael Hingson  46:54 have control over, and and if we worry about them, that's just going to cause us grief. It's not going to bother others. Paul Bugeja  47:01 No, no worries. Worry. I mean, I worry about something. Of course, I do. We all do. But you know, eventually, I manage to bat most of my worries away because I realize, as you said, it's usually something that is out of my control. It's funny when I talk to my actor friends, and speaking for myself, of course, you know, actors have to rehearse. You know, we rehearse favorite. You know, you rehearse for roles and whatever, and that sometimes for me has meant that I tend to rehearse things prior to you know the situation. So it means that my mind goes at 100 miles an hour about a lot of things, and that can lead to anxiety and worry. You know because you overthink, you worry about a situation that hasn't even occurred yet. You're thinking, not over. Well, that's exactly right. That's exactly right. So, you know, I think the the biggest lesson I've probably taken as well from my diagnosis and and the the thing I committed to this year a little bit as a part of my New Year's resolution or whatever you want to call it is to just be as present as I can. You know, like to live in this moment right now. That doesn't mean I don't have an eye to the future, and and I don't make plans, and I don't am not excited about the future. But I'm I'm trying to be as present as I can because if you're present, then all then all this worry disappears in a way because you just can only deal with with with what's right in front of you. Michael Hingson  48:18 Right. Do you have any regrets? Paul Bugeja  48:22 Um, not really. I mean, you know, like there've been a few moments in my life. So, for example, I can I can name a few things. Like when I was in my early 30s, I entered the the diversity visa program, which is the green card lottery in America. Yeah, and I I got it. I got a green card, you know, and so I was all ready to move to the states back in the late 90. Oh no, when was it? Yeah, the late 90s. Yeah, yeah, um, early noughties, and I got into the writing editing course in Australia. So I was really enjoying that. I was doing some acting and some paid acting work, and so I had to. I had a moment where I was like, "Well, do I really want to take up this green card off and become a resident of America? I have lived there before when I studied. I travel there regularly to see my friends, you know. And so I had this crunch time. It was a sliding doors moment. I I did visit a few times. I spent a bit of time in the states, and then I eventually dropped the green card. Now, occasionally, I look back on that and think, "Was that a silly thing to do with what would have opened up to me had I moved to the states? You know, like would my acting career have taken off? Would I have ended up working for the New York Times? Look, whatever it is. So there's a sense of regret about it, but it's such a faint shade of regret that it doesn't it doesn't hold me back. You know, I don't want to be held back by anything in my life. And I think, for me, regrets can hold you back too much. You know, oh yeah, Michael Hingson  49:49 yeah. Oh, absolutely. Well, and and it seems to me that that it's one of those things that could have gone either way, as you said, a sliding door moment. I think that's a really interesting way to put it. But but the fact of the matter is, you made a choice. You're happy with the choice, and you may or may not have been as happy with the choice if you had moved to America. But you wouldn't have experienced a lot of the things that you have experienced. So it's okay. Paul Bugeja  50:14 That's exactly right. That's exactly right. So even you know occasional relationships that went awry, or you know what else? Gosh, what if I stay pursue my career as an actor? There are always going to be what ifs with life, you know, and it's the what ifs that tend to cause us regret. I think, and Michael Hingson  50:29 well, and and cause us so much fear. Paul Bugeja  50:32 That's exactly right. And regret and fear should be the same word, effectively, because that's all that's playing. And if you can find a way to manage that as best you can, and and look. I always say I try to to look down at my feet on the ground to see where I am, and to look forward to see where I'm going, rather than look back where I've come from. And look, we can learn a lot from where we've come from. And in fact, the book that I'm writing is almost like a detective novel, where I track back through my life to see if I can see moments where I might have known that I had FSHD much earlier, so in that regard, I do look backwards. You know, I'm happy to to to have a critical eye on the past and to learn from it. You know, but I don't ever want it to drag me back to it. I'm always looking to be pulled forward. Michael Hingson  51:18 Well, that's the operative part, right? There's nothing wrong with looking back and and learning from what you've experienced, and and more people should should do more of that. It seems to me, but Paul Bugeja  51:29 oh yeah, let's. That's a much longer conversation, isn't it? It Michael Hingson  51:32 is. Who's been the most most influential person in your life, and why? Paul Bugeja  51:38 Yep. Michael Hingson  51:40 Besides Kate Blanchett, but that's another yeah, Paul Bugeja  51:42 of course, very influential, Kate. If you're listening, if she is, I hope she'll Michael Hingson  51:47 reach out. I'd love to have her on the podcast. But anyway, you Paul Bugeja  51:50 never know, my friend. You never know. Look, I mean, it's it's a hard question because, but it's a good question. I mean, there have been so many influences in my life, you know, and and I don't want to step on toes by not naming people in a way, but you know, for one one really influential person who has given me, you know, I have a friend who's a film journalist actually, and has written, you know, a lot mostly about the production side of the industry rather than film reviews, and I feel she only came into my life about maybe 10 or 12 years ago. So she's a relatively new friend, but a very dear friend. And I think I did an internship at a magazine that she worked for, and she was the the editor of at the time, and I think she had a really great influence on my life because she made me realize that I definitely wanted to pursue a career in the media. That I was done with journalism. That working in the media was exciting and interesting. You know, she made sure she pushed me in a lot of ways that I might not have been pushed otherwise, and she's remained a really dear and constant president in my life ever since. So yeah, I really feel like her coming into my life at that particular moment really was like critical in a lot of ways. But you know, she was one of many that have that have definitely given me great advice, or have been very supportive, or have just been there for me. So, yeah, big call out to her. She's she was being wonderful. Michael Hingson  53:29 Do you think that if you had never been diagnosed with or ever had FSHD, that your your job and your careers would have gone differently, or do you think that this was just a natural progression and FSHD is there, but it didn't really dictate what you did. Paul Bugeja  53:46 I think because of my approach to this situation, which is it's there, but it's not going to stop me. I think that look clearly, it's a physical condition, so it does limit me a little bit physically. So, like, I was never going to be like for for instance even with acting you know it did limit me a little bit with acting like there were certain things that like I can't do a headstand you know and I know that's a really a small thing but like in in drama classes there was I remember one class particularly always asked to do a headstand and I couldn't do it and this was pre diagnosis and I had I just thought it was because I was clumsy or uncoordinated or not muscular enough, so like certainly the diagnosis probably gets in the way of some some some kinds of careers that I might have pursued. But generally, you know, I'm a I'm a computer based person. I'm a knowledge and and and and content based person, and I was already going that way pre-diagnosis, so you know I don't think it really intervened in where I would have gone, whether it helped me or not, or whether you know it was part of the reason why I'm where I am. Look, I think it's it's part of the reason of everything that I do. You know, even if it's not all. That the defining reason, but it's it's a consideration definitely. Michael Hingson  55:04 Well, it is, and and it's helped build your resilience, and there's nothing wrong with that. Paul Bugeja  55:10 Yep, and that's right. And I'm in a career that requires resilience, and so it definitely, in that regard, yes, it's it's helped me build that further resilience. Michael Hingson  55:18 So there you go. Has AI helped you in terms of any of the things that you do on your job? Do you use it to to help in finding out information about quizzes or or that you put in quizzes or any of that? Has AI been a useful tool for you? Paul Bugeja  55:35 So again, this we could talk about this for 12 hours a time. Topics right, especially working in the media. I am. I love the fact that I'm an early adopter. Right, I love technology. I I embrace it. I'm you know I'm that guy who gets the new iPhone not every year but every other year. You know, I I'm really I embrace the new. You know, I was doing digital content well the beginning like not at the beginning of it all but you know I was I was I jump in quickly with AI I have reservations I certainly you know I tend to still use standard search but of course now with Google search AI is built into that Google search so I am using it in that regard as a media organization, we have a very strict policy about AI, as one must. You know, we have to be very careful because while it's definitely the next big revolution for everyone, whoever you are, from you know like a dog walker to a you know president, like it's going to affect everyone's lives, you know. I feel as though, so you know, for example, as a media organization, we're encouraged. We are looking at improving the way we work with AI, but there always needs to be a human oversight. Yeah, Michael Hingson  56:57 absolutely. Paul Bugeja  56:58 Yep, yep. And you would appreciate that, of course. So I don't use it in the way I think. I I think over time I will have to use it because I won't have any choice. But you know, we in the media, I think we're looking at. I don't think this is giving anything away, but we're looking at agentic AI more than generative AI because agentic AI is really useful. If I can ask an AI bot to put together the the not the quiz itself, but the the actual article the quiz will appear in that goes on the site. Well, that's just a practical like role you've given a system if you had one anyway, right? So I definitely think the media and me in in my role will will more and more embrace agentic AI as we're able to build it into our systems to help us with mundane practical tasks that you'd give the intern, that you'd give the the first year journal student out or whatever. Right? In terms of generative AI, I I've used it a bit just to see what it will throw back at me, and for example, I do a lot of quizzes as a quizmaster because I love to just do quizzes. I can tell a quiz that's been made with AI. It's very clear. I did a quiz the other day, and I kid you not. The first question was, "If I'm a Bolivian, what country might I come from? Now, I mean, for an editor or the actual person who put together that quiz, not to realize that a that's a pretty awful quiz question, but but it's such an obviously AI generated quiz question, you know. So yeah, I think we I think, and I'm also very aware that the amount of money that's being poured into AI at the moment is looking like a big bubble that will burst at some point, you know, because they can't keep plowing all this money in and expect big returns because it's not returning anything at the moment to them. Really, that doesn't mean it's not going to continue. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't embrace it. That doesn't mean that it's not going to maybe find a cure for cancer. Like I feel like there is a lot of positive that can come from it, so long as the humans stay in control. Michael Hingson  59:03 Well, I think that's the the real issue in the operative part of it. I have used AI in in writing articles, and the way I've used AI is I've I've asked it to give me give me your thoughts on or write an article about, and I'll do that like about six or seven times, and I will go through all of the things that that are created, and it gives me ideas. But I would never let it write the article, and I I would never do that because I want it to be me. And even if it could get to the point where it truly emulates me, it's not me, and I wouldn't want to do that. I so I'm I'm with what you're saying. Paul Bugeja  59:44 Yeah, yeah, and I think that's the trick. My, I think probably like with all you know, sort of new ages of technology, whether it was just the internet, and then it was sort of probably social media was the next big you know sort of critical juncture, and now it's AI. You know, it it means that the a younger. Generation that comes along that only knows this. So my my probably biggest concern would be, and I don't have children, but you know for my friends' children and the children that are going to grow up with AI, that they come to rely on it so heavily that they lose the ability to critically think, that they that they believe everything that AI says, and it will get better and it will get more accurate, but it's still throwing back. So I'll give you one quick example. When I was playing around with it back in 2022, I think, or whatever year the Queen died, Queen Elizabeth II died. I asked it, "Who's the current monarch of England? And I kept bringing Queen Elizabeth II back, and I kept arguing with it, and it kept saying no, and I started feeding it New York Times articles, Guardian articles, you know the Telegraph articles, and I kept saying these aren't reliable sources. Now this was you know back three or four years ago now, but that really concerned me, and I fear that that's the only fear for me is that people will lose their curiosity and their own ability to critically think and and and rely on it so heavily that they forget how to do really simple tasks that we should still be able to do. Michael Hingson  1:01:04 If you could change one thing about the world, whether it's big or small or whatever, what would Paul Bugeja  1:01:10 it be? I actually, so this will reveal me as a like a bit of a almost a communist. But I wish that people's obsession with money would change. I would love to change that. Like I love that people want to be comfortable and they want good lives and that we want our creature comforts and that we want to travel and have a great TV and all that somewhere to live. But I do feel like greed and and the desire to be more than just comfortable is is creating half of the problems in the world right now, and if I could magically get rid of the whatever part of the brain has you know is stuck is caught up with that, I would love to change that. Michael Hingson  1:01:49 Yeah. Well, if someone came up to you who had a disability or who has some sort of challenge in their life and asked you what should they do, what would you say? Paul Bugeja  1:02:01 I would say to them to take a breath with it, to sit with it, to try and not let the fear of this challenge overtake them, to try and understand what it really means, and and to seek as much like advice as they can from the people who understand their situation to talk to others in the same situation as them who've lived that life because those people completely understand and to try and embrace it in a way that is not threatening to them, but which can hopefully allow them to move forward with it and not let it become something that holds them back. But as we've talked about earlier, that something that can still let them live their best life. You know, Michael Hingson  1:02:55 there you go. Paul Bugeja  1:02:57 Yep. Michael Hingson  1:02:57 Well, Paul, if people want to reach out to you, how can they do that? Paul Bugeja  1:03:01 So I am one of these. Even though I talk about being an early adopter and grabbing a hold of all new tech, I'm not on social media. I decided to give that up a few years ago when I felt it was going a way I didn't like. I am on LinkedIn though, so people can just you know like Google my name on LinkedIn and oh sorry I search my name on LinkedIn and find me. Michael Hingson  1:03:20 Can you spell? Paul Bugeja  1:03:20 Sorry, Michael Hingson  1:03:22 spell your name if you would. Paul Bugeja  1:03:23 Yeah, sure. So it's Paul, as in P A U L, and the surname is B U G E J A. Okay. I do have a website which I don't really use so much anymore. It was more for when I was a contractor and you know like looking for work on an ongoing basis, and it's but it is there, and there is a contact page on it, and it's just www dot shipof fools, so s h i p o f f o o l s.com dot a u, and you know I'm actually about to revamp that site again because I feel like I should have a digital footprint that you know has things like this podcast on it, that has articles I've written. You know, I write a lot of travel content, or quite a bit of travel content, and that's all just out there. But it should be in one place, and also just a place of my own, a little spot on the net. So there Speaker 1  1:04:15 you go. That Paul Bugeja  1:04:16 hopefully get vamped up, amped up in the next couple of months. Michael Hingson  1:04:19 So you're writing a book. Have you written other books? Paul Bugeja  1:04:22 I have. I've written a few. I like to call them airport books because they're certainly not Nobel, you know, literature prize-winning books. I've written a great book on stories about famous Australian dogs, for example, called Aussie Dog Tales. I've written a book about crimes of passion that sort of rocked Australia. I've written a dream dictionary. I've written a book on Aussie slang. So they're kind of fun, you know, like easy reads. Most of them are probably out of print now because I wrote most of those back in the late noughties, early teens. But some of them are still available out there. I guess. Yeah, like I, I'm sure a couple of swim prints. So, yeah, yeah. Michael Hingson  1:05:04 Well, I want to thank you for being here with us. We've been doing this for over an hour. Can you believe it? Paul Bugeja  1:05:09 I know. Well, that went like a flash, my friend. Thank you so much. It was great talk. Michael Hingson  1:05:12 And and now we do need to let you go get breakfast. But I want to thank you again for being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening. I'd love to hear from you. Please feel free to email me and love to hear your thoughts on our podcast episode today. You can email me at [email protected]. Michaelhinkson is m i c h a e l h i n g s o n.com. Love it if you'd give us a five star rating wherever you're monitoring our podcast today. But also, more important than a rating, give us a review. I'm sure Paul would love to hear and see good reviews. We would as well. So please give us reviews because people who are interested in the podcast are more interested if they find that people give reviews that that say we like this. You should come and listen to it or watch it too. If you know anyone who ought to be a guest, let us know. Paul, you as well, and we'd love to have them come on because I want everyone who wants to tell a story to come and tell their stories. But for now, thanks again, Paul. This has been absolutely fun. I really appreciate you taking the time to be here today. Paul Bugeja  1:06:14 No worries. Thanks a lot, Michael. Michael Hingson  1:06:18 Thank you for being here with me on Unstoppable Mindset. I hope today's conversation left you with a fresh perspective, a new insight, or at least something worth thinking about. If you're ready to go deeper into the ideas that shape how we see ourselves and others, I have a free gift for you. Head over to michaelhingson.com and download my free ebook, Blinded by Fear. It explores the invisible beliefs that hold us back and shows you how to reframe them so you can move forward with clarity and confidence. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review, and share this show with someone who can use a reminder that growth starts with mindset. When people think differently, we all move forward together. Thanks again for listening. Keep learning, keep questioning, and keep choosing to live with an unstoppable mindset.

It is never too late to chase a dream, even one that has waited decades for its turn. My guest, Evan Katz, built a career in journalism, public finance, and local government before taking an unexpected path into professional baseball. After first playing organized baseball at age 45, Evan became a professional player at 61 and later coached professional baseball at 69. We talk about how fear can become motivation, why setbacks can be powerful learning opportunities, and how skills gained across a lifetime can prepare us for challenges we never expected to face. Evan also shares what he learned from calling himself the “least qualified coach in professional baseball,” and how listening, mentoring, and supporting others became some of his greatest strengths. His story is a wonderful reminder that personal growth, career change, and lifelong learning do not come with an expiration date. Highlights: 02:47 – How family work ethic shaped Evan’s drive. 11:26 – How fear can become motivation. 13:08 – Why setbacks can become learning opportunities. 35:06 – What local government taught Evan about growth. 42:29 – Why he started playing baseball at 45. 53:37 – How he became a professional baseball coach at 69 About the Guest: Evan grew up in Brookline, Massachusetts two miles from Fenway Park in the 1960s and quickly learned the emotional highs and lows of being a Red Sox fan.  When the Red Sox won the World Series in 2004, after an 86-year championship drought, he rang church bells to celebrate. After a long award-winning career in municipal and public school finance in Massachusetts, and raising a family of four with his wife Liz, Evan began his late-life baseball career in earnest at age 65.  He was an assistant high school coach for three years, and documented the team’s Massachusetts state championship in the story “No Earbuds in the Outfield.” Evan Katz’s pro baseball career began at age 61 when he pitched for the White Sands Pupfish of the independent Pecos League in 2017. When euphoria subsided and his infinity ERA began to sting, Evan returned to the Pecos League at age 67. With the Austin Weirdos he became one of the oldest pitchers ever to start a minor league game and lowered his ERA to 29.25 After an aborted stint as pitching coach with the Roswell Invaders in 2024, Evan returned to the Pecos League in 2025 as bullpen coach of the North Platte 80s. As the 80’s scout he recruited players for the second-year Nebraska team.  As bullpen coach he supported the North Platte pitching staff which anchored the team’s 27-21 record and helped the team reach the second round of the playoffs. And this despite just three years as a high school coach, and no college coaching experience. There were more than 2000 coaches among nearly 300 major, minor and independent pro baseball teams and Evan was the least qualified. To share his second career in baseball and other inspiring baseball stories, Evan manages his baseball website “Baseball by the Sea Media.” It includes exclusive feature stories plus biographies and game stories published by the Society for American Baseball Research. It also links to the 2024 award-winning two-season podcast he co-hosted with Bruce McClure, “Baseball’s Last Frontier: Stories from the Pecos League.” Ways to connect with Evan**:** https://sites.google.com/view/baseballbythesea/home https://www.linkedin.com/in/evan-katz-351554b/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:04 What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe? Welcome to Unstoppable Mindset, where inclusion, diversity, and the unexpected meet. I'm your host, Michael Hingston, speaker, author, and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead, and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head-on, and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear. Together, we focus on mindset, resilience, and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Hi, everyone, and welcome to another Unstoppable Mindset podcast episode today. We get to chat with Evan Katz, and Evan's got an interesting life, especially since, if you will, he started the second part of his life, or maybe it's not the second, maybe it's later, of being a professional baseball coach at the age of 61. Well, we're going to hear about that. Evan lives in Massachusetts, in Swampscott, grew up in Brookline, which was very close to where the Red Sox play. I'm sure he's got lots of stories that we get to talk about with that. But anyway, Evan, I want to welcome you to Unstoppable Mindset. We're really glad you're here. Evan Katz  01:42 Thanks, Michael. I really appreciate the invitation. I I think that I'm excited to be part of a show with with with the theme that that you emphasize because I think that that when you reached out to me to ask if I was interested in in sharing some of my life experiences, I realize that there's a there's an unstoppable part of my mindset that has allowed me to achieve some things I didn't think were going to be possible. Michael Hingson  02:10 There you go. Well, you know, a lot of times we plan, and what we plan doesn't always necessarily go exactly the way we thought. But that's okay. It's it's a question what we do with it and what we learn from it. I suppose why don't we start by you telling us a little bit maybe about the early Evan growing up and and all that. And I know that you had mentioned that you think you actually got your kind of unstoppable mindset attitude from your parents and all that. So if you want to talk about that as as we go, you're welcome to. But anyway, why don't you start by telling us a little bit about the early Evan, if you will. Evan Katz  02:42 Sure. Well, you know, as you mentioned, I grew up outside of Boston in the town of Brookline, which is about two miles from Fenway Park. I'm a baby boomer. My my parents worked really hard, and they they worked hard to get their first house. They worked hard to fix it up. My mother was at home. My father worked in his parents' hardware store and was always fixing up the house. We ended up upgrading houses because of all the work that he did. And my mother, although she wasn't working, you know, she was involved in local politics, trying to improve the schools. And one of the stories I told when she passed away a number of years ago that she was so effective about mobilizing people to make changes in the school system. One of the school principals said to somebody else, "Get that Pawnee cats off the phone, Michael Hingson  03:34 because of course Evan Katz  03:35 at the time telephone was the only way to connect with people. But you know she had her unstoppable mindset in terms of making changes in public education in Brookline, my dad in terms of living the dream that he had for his family, and I really think that that in my own way I picked up that same hard worth it work ethic, and it's popped up along the way throughout my my life and my career. I Michael Hingson  04:00 I know what you mean. I know my parents were somewhat the same way. My dad worked at. Well, we moved to California when I was five, and before we moved, we were in Chicago. And he and my uncle owned a TV repair shop, and my dad left that to move to California. Wanted to do that anyway, but he began working at a government installation, was called Plant 42, and then later transferred to Edwards Air Force Base. My mom stayed home for a while. She actually helped sell real estate, helped sell some of the houses on the street where we moved because they were they were brand new, and the real estate people trusted her, so she she did some of that. Don't know what she earned or how all that worked, but but she did okay. But my dad worked, and I I feel very blessed. They they clearly taught me a lot, and I value very much their work ethic. I know what you're talking about. Evan Katz  05:01 Well, family is a great resource, whether it's your immediate family or extended family. And also, again, at the time that that I was growing up, most of our extended family lived right in the area, so there was a lot of connecting with cousins and uncles and grandparents. And I think that had its own way of shaping because we had a pretty hardworking, determined family, and I think that got passed on again, not just in my parents, but from my extended family as well. We Michael Hingson  05:28 had aunts and uncles and cousins. A lot of them were in Chicago. Then aunt and uncle and their two boys and our cousins moved out to California, but it was long after we moved. And then our next closest relative was actually up in the San Francisco area. Aunt Bella and Uncle Oscar owned a shoe store, and but and there were some other people who we called aunts. I'm not sure that they actually were, but aunts and uncles. But they they lived in the L.A. area. But most of our relatives were not very close by. Well, that's that's fine, but value the relationships nonetheless. So what was what was school like for you? Well, elementary school and high school and so on. Evan Katz  06:22 Well, I went to the local elementary school, and as I think, as I as I suggested, it was one of the schools that was being neglected by the town. My mother and her friends advocated for equal resources. It was also during the time where Christmas carols were being sung in school, and it was not something that my parents thought was appropriate. I was Jewish. There were other Jewish kids in school, not very many, and just didn't seem like this was the thing that should be happening, given where our country was at the time. And so I did well in elementary school. I mean, the interesting thing was I skipped kindergarten, so I was always the youngest and the slowest on the playground, and it actually contributed to my not participating in sports through my early years and into into high school, which we will we'll hear more about that later. But I got a good education. I loved numbers. I learned in high school after I had horrible year my sophomore year writing. I was determined to learn. I took a couple of English classes from mr. Carey at Newton South High School. Learned to become a good writer, and ultimately that led to my writing on college newspapers and becoming a newspaper reporter. My first job out of college. So, you know, the kind of thing when you go through school, you try to figure out, you know, what are the things that that that sing to you. And first, it was numbers for me, and I ended up going into a career in public finance, and then the writing, which I ended up becoming a newspaper reporter, put that on hold. And about 10 years ago, or eight years ago, I started a baseball social media website, and I ended up writing baseball stories. So, so here I am in my my my formative years in school, taming numbers, becoming a CFO in the public sector, and becoming a good writer-they got me through life. Michael Hingson  08:33 How did you end up being able to skip kindergarten? Evan Katz  08:37 That was back in the day. They didn't have minimum age requirements. If you pass the test, you you got to go right to first grade. Michael Hingson  08:44 Ah, well, I know I went to kindergarten in Chicago, and you started in Chicago at age four. Then we moved to California, and the problem is in California you couldn't start kindergarten till age five, but I had had a year of kindergarten already, but they wouldn't let me just go to first grade because I was only five, so I ended up with two years of kindergarten. And I'm not sure that second year was all that exciting for me, because kids were drawing and doing all sorts of stuff that I wouldn't do being blind. But we coped, and we got through it. I also did love numbers and so on, and my dad taught me how to do math in my head, so I was really doing well with math. And my my mother helped me with spelling tests and reading other material to me, and so on. So we got through it, and again, they took that on without any remorse at all, which, as I think back on it, was just part of their gutsiness and their unstoppability. Because the doctors told them that no blind child could ever amount to anything, and they were going to prove the doctors wrong. And I would like to think that they did, but we. We went through it, and I didn't actually. I learned Braille when I was in kindergarten in Chicago, but then didn't have access to Braille till the fourth grade out here in California. Yep. Yeah. Well, but my my parents read and kept me up with everything, but still it was a problem. But then I got Braille again, and so it all worked out, but I, but I, but I know what you're saying. It still gets back to the work ethic, and our parents were gonna do everything they could to make sure we all succeeded, didn't they? Evan Katz  10:32 Well, and I think also, Michael, you've touched on it, and I did as well. You know, there are things, there are areas we go into, whether it's school or work or relationships, we're blessed with certain talents and traits, but we also have areas that are not our strengths, and we're always having to work to figure out how to how to compensate for our areas of call it weakness or limitations, and also how to allow our strengths to to overcome those and and then to help generate success. Michael Hingson  11:05 Yeah, and and we do need to do that. And and the reality is that we're all generally better at some things than we are at other things, but we can make it work if we if we try. I wrote and published with a colleague, Carrie Wagg Kent, two years ago a book called *Live Like a Guide Dog* which is all about learning to control fear and its life lessons that that tell us that fear doesn't need to overwhelm us or, as I put it, blind us. That that we can use fear as a very powerful tool to help us, and I mention that because there are so many things that we fear in the world, and most of them we don't have any control over. I mean, I know that there are things that that I don't get to do right now that other people do because they can see different things. But at the same time, I have gifts that most of those people never either learn to use or choose to use or can use, and so we all have to work together to make the world successful. And I think that's the big issue. Evan Katz  12:11 Well, I think your point about fear is really important because we we all have fears, we all have worries, and fear can be paralyzing, and but it can also be motivating, and I think it's important that if you get into a situation that that you're concerned about or worried about, you should acknowledge that you're in something. Maybe you're over your head, and we'll talk about my coaching a professional team at age 69 without ever having coached college baseball, going right from high school coaching to professional coaching, that was the hardest job of my life, and that fear motivated me to figure out how am I going to come up with those compensating skills? How am I going to be able to succeed? Because I want this to succeed not just for me, but for the players around me. So, so fear. It's important to to recognize it, and so that you know that it's there, but also be able to take advantage of what fear can motivate you to do. Michael Hingson  13:13 Well, and fear doesn't need to paralyze you unless you let it. And that's the the big issue: is that we don't learn generally how to control fear and to use fear in a positive way. We worry about so many things over which we'll never have control because we just don't, and we let all of that worry us, and that that certainly adds so much to the fear levels that we face, and if we would only learn to just focus on what we can control, that doesn't mean you don't be aware of other things. But don't worry about the things over which you don't have control. It will help your life a whole lot. Evan Katz  13:53 And another aspect to that is, and I and I learned this, and as I mentioned, I worked in the public sector for for for almost 40 years, and I came up with the phrase at one point, and I I don't remember the circumstances. And somebody said, "I don't know if this is going to work. I don't know if we have the money. I don't know we have the people. This may not be a good solution, or the operation may not work. And I said, "Well, I think we have to see if it fails because if it fails, then we're going to learn something. Obviously, we didn't want anyone to lose a job or to get hurt. It wasn't failing in that regard, but but the you have to have enough courage so that if something isn't going to work, you can use that as as a learning opportunity as well, so you can't have fear of failure either. Because then we can all look back. You're old enough. I'm old enough to look back on our lives and see those learning moments. Many of them came from times that didn't work out so well, Michael Hingson  14:55 which doesn't mean that we failed. And I think that's the big issue. I think we have to deal with. Failure is is something that we have to really get over thinking about because failure isn't really it. What what it is is that things didn't work out the way we planned, but that doesn't mean that we failed, which means we just can't go on. We're we're stuck. It's it's a learning experience, and that is part of what dealing with fear is all about. Is rather than worrying about it. All right, so this didn't work. Don't fret. Don't worry. Don't panic. What did you learn from it? How do we get beyond that? And that's the thing that we generally tend not to do very much: is to do a lot of self-analysis in our own lives. Take time at night to step back and look at what worked during the day, what didn't work, and the what didn't works weren't failures, but they were learning opportunities if we take advantage of our own skills to develop our mind muscle to do that. Evan Katz  15:57 Absolutely, I Michael Hingson  15:58 think that's that's so important. Well, so for you, you you where did you go to college? Evan Katz  16:08 I graduated from Newton South High School. We went from Brookline to Newton in the 70s. I went to a small college in Western New York, Alfred University, for two years, and ultimately graduated from Colby College in Maine in 1977. As I mentioned, I wrote for both the newspapers at Alford and Colby, and that's where I got my my my journalistic experience back then. Writing for college newspapers was was a big deal back then, Michael Hingson  16:39 yeah, Evan Katz  16:39 and that worked out really well. I was going to go into teaching. That was my original plan. I did some internships in college. I even, when I was at Colby, I took a semester and helped out at a small fourth grade class in neighboring Oakland, Maine, helping out kids doing lessons in the in the corridor and in the back of the room to help them with their math, but when I left college, I had done enough writing, primarily sports, that I decided to to follow journalism. But the college years were really an eye opener for me. As I mentioned, I was a year young. You know, I was the drinking age was 18, and I was still only 17 and a half when I went to college, but somehow my IDs got me through into the pub. But it was a really eye-opening experience going to college in New York. I'd been in Massachusetts my whole life and was in a small town in Western New York, and it was just so eye-opening to see a part of the country and people that were very unlike where I lived in terms of Alfred. Most of the kids were from New York, and then going to Maine, they were more from New England. But it was just a real eye-opening experience. I think we all go through that in our late teens and early 20s, really beginning to discover, you know, who we are, what situations are we comfortable in? We test ourselves. We do crazy things, and it all turned out okay because I was able to get a job right out of college. Michael Hingson  18:11 So teaching was your plan, but it didn't go that way. Evan Katz  18:16 No, it didn't. And interestingly enough, I was looking back through my father's memorabilia when he died, and I think I knew this, but I was reminded that he wanted to teach originally, and he actually was a mentor to many people during his working career. And he took great pride and went to the Peace Corps actually for a number of years in his 60s, and so you know the whole teaching mentoring thing ran in our family, so I guess it's kind of ironic that I ended up coaching baseball at age 65 as a as a teacher and a mentor. But but the college experience, you know, I still think about it. I just sold my vinyl records. It was it was a little traumatic, but I did sell my vinyl records recently because I can listen to everything over the internet now, and but that was a water watershed moment selling my vinyl that I listened to in college for all those years. Michael Hingson  19:14 I still have mine from working at the campus radio station. I got a lot of records back here, and I I am somewhat of the opinion of the I don't know whether I would call them snobs, but I still think the best quality is still vinyl. Evan Katz  19:30 Well, as you know, Michael, one of the best attributes of vinyl records is when they were originally the songs were compiled and sequenced. It was they were designed to listen through the whole side of an album. Michael Hingson  19:44 Yeah, Evan Katz  19:44 and I mean obviously Pink Floyd was classic, and I'm sure that there were others that come to mind that I can't think of. And I was a big fan of the Doobie Brothers, and to this day I'll still turn off my radio in the car and put on a couple of Doobie Brothers albums and listen to them straight. Same with Chicago. It just the music was meant to be arranged, you know, for half an hour or 35 minutes, not just three and a half minutes. And I think a little bit of that has been has been lost with today's music. Michael Hingson  20:13 Yeah. Well, I think there's there's truth to that. And I even go back further. I've been a fan for many many years of big bands, primarily Swing, Benny Goodman, and and so on, but also doop and early rock. But I and I like some of the other rock. But I've never been a great heavy metal fan. But that's okay. Some people like it, and then that's fine too. But I really enjoy my records as well, which is a lot of fun. Yeah, I Evan Katz  20:42 did listen to Van Halen cassettes driving. Somehow, a Van Halen arrangement wasn't quite the same as Chicago. No, Michael Hingson  20:50 no, it is a little bit different. There's no doubt about that. So, what was your job that you ended up getting out of college? Evan Katz  20:57 I ended up worked as a stringer, which I don't even know if there are any anymore, but I think I got paid 10 cents an inch for covering soccer for the Newton graphic. I covered the Newton South soccer team, and also I I don't know how much an hour I got. I covered the Westin Wildcats. That's a small town west of Boston for the Westin Town Crier. That's how I got started in journalism, and I ultimately was hired as a part-time reporter by the Walpole Times, which is small town southwest of Boston. And I eventually became a full-time reporter there, covering town government, writing feature stories, learned how to use a 35 millimeter camera. We we had our own darkroom there, and I thought it was so much fun going out to meetings, interviewing people, compiling stories. It was just it wasn't like work. It was it was it was exciting, and it paid the bills, and I was living on my own for the first time. Michael Hingson  22:06 That didn't get you to graduate to things like going into television on WEEI and doing sports for them, huh? Evan Katz  22:13 No, the the the written word at the time, and even today still is is where I am. Although, as I joke with my friends, just put a microphone in front of me, and I'll start talking. Michael Hingson  22:26 So that's okay. Well, so how long did you write? And then what happened Evan Katz  22:32 was, so as I mentioned, my mother was very involved in local government, and I grew up in Brookline. And the interesting thing was, I was covering the planning board and the school committee in Walpole, and I'm I'm going to the meetings and I'm listening to them talking about the issues that they're dealing with, and I'm thinking to myself, so this is what 1979. I'm 23 years old, and I'm thinking, I mean, I can do better than this. I mean, listening to these these people talk about how they're going to solve problems, and I said, I think I can really help. So, the local legislator from Walpole, his name was Frank Woodward, had an opening in his office, and I started working as a legislative aide for him, working in the state house. It was very exciting. My mother was so proud. When some one morning in March, I don't know if it was 1979 or 1980, and I walked up the steps of the State House. Big blue sky in Boston. It was a big golden dome. I'll never forget. I walked up the front steps, looked up at the golden dome and the big blue sky in March of whatever year that was, so excited. My mother was so proud. My dad was too, obviously. And then I got involved in government, and that's where it all started. Working in the state house to really begin to understand the importance of issues. You know, it wasn't just local government, but how the state government intersected with the federal government, and how much how how important government is to making people's lives safe and protected. Michael Hingson  24:07 Yeah, and I think that is that is something that although there is certainly a lot going on today that is not necessarily the the model of what government ought to be, probably, but still, government and what the House of Representatives and the Senate do at the federal level, and what happens at the at the state house and in the state government is really important. And I wish more people would seriously get involved with it, and and do it from an ethical standpoint. But you know, we, I guess, we go through through different kinds of eras of how things work. Evan Katz  24:54 Well, it's interesting in the tumult that we're going through here. I recently had a chance. Last month to go to England with my wife. I hadn't been there for a while, and and I was really struck by how the history dates back centuries and centuries and centuries prior. You know, to 1066, I guess is one of the lines in the sand or the dirt in England. But when they started the more modern era, and what I was really struck by when you think about a country like England and all the difficulties, all the changes, all the times that they were under threat from external forces, internal forces, all the chaos, and somehow they've survived. And I think this is one of the real attributes of Great Britain. And I just began to think about what we're going through here, and I think I have to be hopeful in the same way. Michael Hingson  25:56 Yeah, I agree that Evan Katz  25:57 that that we've been here for 250 years. I know it's short compared to England. Supposedly, one author says that republics die after 250 years. I don't know if I buy that necessarily, but but the point is that that that I think somehow, some way, we're going to survive this because other countries have been through much more over much longer periods of time, and here they are. And 2026 is stable, viable countries. Michael Hingson  26:25 Yeah, and they're still there, and they're going to be there. And I agree with you. I think that we're we're going to continue, and maybe republics die after 250 years, but it doesn't mean they have to. And I think that's that's part of it. So what did you what did you do in terms of you you went to work in the state house or what did you do? Evan Katz  26:48 And I was a legislative aide, so we would get information on legislation, take a lot of constituent phone calls because at the time the only time only way you got a hold of your legislator was either make a phone call. Of course, I think from Walpole to Boston, it might have been a toll call at that time. So maybe we got more letters from Walpole. I don't know, but constituent constituent concerns, working with state agencies to resolve things, and and it just got me acquainted with with with how government works, and it just gave me an appreciation for what it takes to make government work for for the the residents of Walpole and a couple other nearby towns, and also you get to see the the leaders of the state at that time the the Senate President and the the Speaker of the House, and you get to understand a little bit more how they show leadership and what skills and attributes work well, and what ones in your mind don't work well. But the whole bottom line is, you know, how is it working for the constituents? And to me, that became more and more important. Is what's the bottom line here? It's not about power. It's not about success at the legislator. The bottom line is the impact on people. Michael Hingson  28:13 Well, I remember that when I lived in Winthrop, every year I would go with people from the National Federation of the Blind, we went to Washington every year. Five, 600 of us descended on Washington and visited all of our legislators. And I remember actually once having the opportunity to set up an appointment and meet with Tip O'Neill. What an amazing guy he was! Yeah. But then also there was a new congressman who had just joined, Ed Markey. Evan Katz  28:45 Oh sure. Michael Hingson  28:46 Now look where he is. He's but but it was it was so much fun seeing Congress in action and actually being a part of it, talking about different kinds of issues, and of course it got to meet Ted Kennedy and also Paul Songas along the way as well. And I and I also was involved in things in in Massachusetts because one of the problems we had in the early '80s in Massachusetts and around the country was that blind people couldn't buy life insurance because the life insurance companies said we're a higher risk, we'll have a higher mortality rate, and finally, to keep the story short, we discovered that unlike what insurance companies say they do, which is they make their determinations always based on actuarial statistics, evidentiary data, and they create mathematical models based on evidence. They had absolutely not one single solitary thing to show that blind people or other people with disabilities were a higher risk than anyone else. So I worked back in the late 70s, early 80s with I don't you may. I've known him, Al Evan Katz  30:02 Sagasi. I recognize the name. Michael Hingson  30:03 Yeah, and so he he helped us shepherd a bill through that eventually eliminated discrimination in dealing with life insurance in Massachusetts, and and actually was something that passed in every state that all all the states dealt with that because the insurance companies were just playing games, which was so unfortunate. So when I was growing up, my parents couldn't insure me. When I was in college, I couldn't buy life insurance, and and eventually it got addressed. But it was, and it still is fascinating to think back and be a part of making a difference and really working to help constituents and help the legislature. Evan Katz  30:48 Well, there's a great example of numbers not being in action. You know, they're hiding behind perceived numbers, and then you do do a little bit of digging, and you find out that it's not quite as fact-based as they made it sound, Michael Hingson  31:02 yeah, and in fact there was no fact, and but still we worked through it, but the process was, I think, and still is for me one of the most fascinating things to to be able to go and be a part of dealing with things and and hopefully getting legislators to deal with issues and I'm not sure that there's as much of that that's happening today with everything going on but it'll come back. Evan Katz  31:34 Not not in Washington anyway. I think you've got to look to the states more than Washington. Washington's an anomaly right now. Michael Hingson  31:42 Yeah, Washington is really a big problem, and and but it'll it'll it'll switch at some point. I hope. I think it's going to have to, but but we'll see how it goes. If Speaker 1  31:55 you enjoy Unstoppable Mindset and would like to help us continue bringing these conversations to you each week, we've created a way for you to support the show. Your contribution helps us cover production costs and continue sharing stories, insights, and ideas that inspire people to live with purpose and possibility. If supporting the podcast feels right for you, you'll find the link in the show notes, thank you for being part of the Unstoppable Mindset Community. Michael Hingson  32:27 So you you went to work and you were legislative aide. How long did you do that? Evan Katz  32:32 Actually, not not. I think it was a little over a year because I ended up working on a referendum campaign. There's a thing in Massachusetts to limit property taxes, that's called Prop Two and a Half, that passed in 1980. I ended up working for Representative Woodward and a couple of other reps. There was an alternative on the tried to get on the ballot as an alternative to Two and a Half that wouldn't be quite as dramatic. Although I think, looking back as someone in the public sector, I think it's a good thing that Prop two and a half passed, but I got involved in working on a referendum campaign as an alternative to Prop two and a half. It didn't pass, and then at that point, I decided needed to get some professional training, and I went to get my graduate degree in public administration from the Kennedy School at Harvard, so I would have more credentials and I could really get into local government, and that really opened the door. Once I got my master's degree, I ended up working for the state. I think I mentioned my mother and family were from were from Brookline. We were acquainted with Governor Dukakis, and my mother worked actually very close with Govern was very close with Governor Dukakis, and he really encouraged me to go to graduate school, and I ended up going to the Kennedy School. And from there, I went and worked for his administration. The Massachusetts Department of Revenue started a division to support local government finance. It was really very innovative at the time in the early '80s. You know, cities and towns were separate. The state was just a regulatory reagency, and Governor Dukakis wanted to create an agency that could be a resource to local government to help them make better decisions. We created a municipal data bank to try to gather information to get to gather statistical information and ultimately help guide cities and towns to budget better, to plan their capital budgets better. And I was involved in the formation of that bureau in the Mass Department of Revenue. It was called the Division of Local Services, and I ended up working there in the early '80s, to really get a feel for how state government worked, state aid, and all that sort of thing, and then I learned enough there and decided to go out and see what it was like myself to work in a city or town, and that that's was around 1980. So I got my training at is in graduate school, learned more in state government, and then in the mid '80s went out to work in town halls and and city halls, and that that talk about fear, that that was frightening. Michael Hingson  35:18 It was a new experience. Evan Katz  35:20 Absolutely, you know, you you you you're in the state house, and there's there's 240 state reps and 40 senators, I think, all kinds of legislative aides. You're working in a state agency, and it's a whole bunch of 20 something and 30 something colleagues and bosses and this and that. There's always someone you can ask, always someone that can support you. You go to a town hall, and there's there's three clerks and a bunch of select board members. In Massachusetts, there are boards of selectmen in the small towns, or the select board now. Back then, it was select men, but you're on your own out there, and it's very, very different. You know, having a bunch of colleagues to support you in the big city when you're out in the small town of Groton, 40 miles from Boston, with 7000 people, and you're the resource in town hall. It's a lot different. Michael Hingson  36:18 I was just going to say that you you became the resource that people look to. Evan Katz  36:24 Yeah, and and so you take your professional training and you begin to develop some of those personal skills. And how do you relate to people? How do you gather information? How do you recover from from your mistakes? How do you make sure you have enough successes so that you got a good success to mistake ratio? But it's it it is very scary. I mean, I was what how old in 1986? So I was 30 years old, and it never. And I wanted to work in a small town, and I did, but it was a real, real eye-opening experience. But by the same token, you know, one of our biggest fears-you're the only person. One of the greatest attributes to the situation was you're immersed in everything. You learn everything. You learn about the police department, the fire department, which was a call department at that time. You know, if there was a fire, all the firemen, there might have been a couple of women as well, went to some went to the station to get the truck, and some drove in their cars to the scene of the fire, and and and you get a small town with one police officer on duty, you know, from from 11 to seven, you got a water department with two employees. You really get a feel for what's important and what isn't, and how do you make the system go, and what do you do in an emergency, and how do you plan for the future? And so it was it was it was frightening at one level because you're on your own and you're learning a brand new thing, but at the same time you're immersing yourself so deeply, and you're learning so much that that that that you're growing, you know, professionally and personally at a very very fast rate. Michael Hingson  38:16 And although you may or may not realize it at the time, those fears that that you started with slowly would be dissolving away because you were learning how to deal with things, and you were discovering that you had the ability to deal with things, and so you became less afraid in a positive way. Evan Katz  38:37 Right. Well, you know, you all know that the cycles in in businesses and cities and towns, and it's all in an annual cycle, the budget cycle, and you know you get through the first year and you start doing it again, and you're doing it again, and you really then you begin to expand your knowledge base. You're willing to to to experiment a little bit more, and and you're growing again at a very fast rate because you're able to do more and more that you weren't able to do when you first got there. Michael Hingson  39:10 Did you ever run for any office? Evan Katz  39:13 Actually, I did. When I left Groton, I finance was my area of interest, as as I mentioned earlier. I was hired by the city of Medford, which is just north of Boston, up Route 93, probably I don't maybe 810 miles north. And when I was working there, I was the city's finance director. You talk about culture shock, so I go from the small town of Groton with seven people to a to a 50,000 the city of 50,000 with a with a palatial city hall right off Route 93 and but I was chosen for because of my background in finance. And when I was working there, I decided that the town of Groton might benefit from my experience as an elected official. So I was working in Medford as finance director, and I ran for assessor in Groton to get started. Elected assessors to value properties and administered the taxes, and then ultimately I ran for select board a couple years after that. Michael Hingson  40:27 Were you elected? Evan Katz  40:29 I did. Yeah, I won. Okay. And here's another thing that I learned. You know, I haven't always seen elected boards, whether it was the select board or city councils or legislators, you see elected officials in action at meetings and talking about problems and making phone calls, but you forget there's a lot of other work that goes on behind the scenes when you're at home at night and when you run into somebody on the street. And so I was I was very prepared for the for the technical aspects of it, the problem solving, but I forgot about the time that it takes when people call you or have a have a have a problem with a nearby dog, or someone put up a fence, or the traffic on my street is going too fast. You have to call people. You got to follow up. You got to again. Back in the old days, it's all by telephone. So the amount of time that it took to resolve problems and have meetings, I forgot about the the the extra time that it takes when you're an elected official to do that behind the scenes stuff. But but I enjoy doing that as well. Michael Hingson  41:41 Yeah, I'll bet. And you know, it it is just it it you figure out that that's part of what you have to do. And again, I think the big issue is in figuring all that out is learning to recognize that's part of what you have to do, and accepting that that's definitely part of the job, and not trying to blow it off, not trying to get angry at people, which all too often happens today, I think more than it than it needs to. But it is part of the job. It's all part of the job, and no matter what, that hasn't really changed. Evan Katz  42:19 And I think it's I think it's in any job, and I think people have perceptions about certain types of jobs, whether it's you're you're you're a plumber, a truck driver, a lawyer. You know, people understand the responsibilities at the surface level and the visible level, but they're they're not as aware of what goes on behind the scenes, what it takes to to get things going, and and I think that's probably not and maybe underappreciated in some situations about what it takes to to to do things behind the scenes that are not as exciting, where there's more drudgery, and and and the amount of time that it takes to get you into the seat of the truck, to get you to have a meeting with clients, if you're some kind of professional, if you're a doctor, there's there's there's a lot more to any job, and I think that that that it's important to recognize it for ourselves. You know, it's not just the let's call it the glamorous part of the job. Michael Hingson  43:29 Yeah, Evan Katz  43:30 there's the behind the scenes part of the job, and the same goes for all jobs. And I think it's important to remember that. Michael Hingson  43:36 I agree. Well, you did all this work, and you kept doing it for quite a while. So, what got you into baseball, other than being a fan? But you know, Evan Katz  43:46 well, loyal Red Sox fan, been to Fenway hundreds of times, as I mentioned earlier. Was started school a year early, so I never played sports, and my kids in my 40s had finished little league, and they were all done with their sports careers at that point. And I decided I wanted to play baseball at age 45. Michael Hingson  44:14 There you go. I had Evan Katz  44:15 never played. I had never played little league. I never played high school. Never played college. And at age 45, a friend of mine who I grew up with in Brookline, he encouraged me to go to a baseball camp in Florida in 2002, and at that point, my my interest in baseball and my fandom in baseball expanded to becoming a a player and having to learn about the game as a player, not just as someone watching the game. Michael Hingson  44:47 And what did your wife think of that? Evan Katz  44:49 Well, my my wife will mention that my my wife Liz, our first date was on march 30, 2002, and that was the date. Of my first baseball practice in Massachusetts, so she has been there from the beginning of my baseball career. And if it wasn't for her one acceptance of it and her support of it, I never would have been able to achieve and enjoy all that all that I have, but she she is is is my biggest fan and supporter. Michael Hingson  45:29 That's great. She's a Red Sox fan, I would presume. Evan Katz  45:33 Yeah, Red Sox fan. Yep, and you know we watched them clinch it in 2004. We've been to Fenway together, and you know she, you know, like I played adult baseball, and and you know the when guys join, their spouses or girlfriends come the first for a bunch of games in the beginning, but then they just lose interest. Understandably, it's you know it's old man baseball. It's not like it is on TV. She she comes from time to time, but but she she's got her own life to live now. So that's okay. Michael Hingson  46:05 Well, so so tell me how baseball progressed for you. So you you started working at playing. Evan Katz  46:15 Yeah. So I went to this baseball camp in Florida, which I actually just came back from. It's called the Ponstellion Baseball Camp, and it's from a league in Washington, and they started going down for a week of what they call spring training. Well, for Washington, baseball starts a little earlier, Washington D.C. So we go down the end of January, and you know, getting on the field isn't too far away as long as there's no snow on the ground in the DC metro area. But I started going to that camp in 2002, and there was a group of professional coaches at this camp who were major league and minor league affiliated, and they have been coming to this camp since the beginning. This is now 2026. They've been going to the camp as long as as the longtime players, and so what happened was, you know, I was playing adult baseball, and there was a year where it rained a lot, and we had games postponed, and I'm driving around Fort Myers, and I think I was 60 years old at the time, so this would be 2016. And I said to myself, you know, what would be the chances that I could find a minor league team that would let me play, so I could live my dream of being a professional baseball player? And I grew up around in Brookline. I collected baseball cards. I played imaginary baseball games in my yard. Played wiffle ball with my friends. Watched the Red Sox on TV. You know, it's been in my blood since I was a little kid. And of course, many little kids want to be professional basketball players, hockey players, football players. Well, for me, it was baseball. So here I am, 60 years old, and I asked a couple of people at the camp. One of them was Stan Clyburn, played for the Angels in the 80s, and he's managed in the minor leagues for 1000s of games. He's still managing to this day. And Steve Little, who was a coach at the time with the Twins, I asked them, "Do you think I could find a minor league team that would allow me to play for them, so I could live my dream, play professional baseball? And they said, "Sure. Oh yeah, you you should give it a shot. And they gave me a couple names. Ultimately, it took me a year and a half, and I found the Pecos League, which is a low level of independent baseball. I got a hold of the commissioner. His name is Andrew Dunn, and I called him up in March. It turned out this would be March of 2017. I went out to my car at a lunch break from school. I had his phone number, and he answers the phone, "Hello, baseball. And I explain the situation, and he said, "You want to get in a game? We'll get you in a game. And that was that was in 2017. Michael Hingson  49:15 Wow! Evan Katz  49:16 And way it the way it turned out, he invited me out to play for the White Sands Pupfish the last weekend of the season, it had to be with teams that it wouldn't affect the playoffs. And I went out to White Sands, New Mexico, White Sands National Park is there. Alamogordo and the the White Sands Pupfish. I I pitched to two batters, walked one and hit one. I had one plate appearance and was called out on strikes. Didn't lift the bat off my shoulder. Too much fear, as I look back on it. But I became a professional baseball player at age 61. Michael Hingson  49:57 Well, so you got to live your dream. Evan Katz  50:00 Yep, Michael Hingson  50:00 and so after you pitched, what did you do? Evan Katz  50:04 Well, it was all very exciting, and I I actually was interviewed by Bill Littlefield on the NPR radio show Only a Game, talking about playing baseball at age 61, and my friends thought it was really neat and cool, and I had some pictures made, and I gave a lot of graph pictures to Stan Clyburn and Steve Little to thank them for inspiration, and it was all fun. But you know, in baseball, if you're a pitcher and you give up a run without getting anybody anybody out, you have an ERA, which is an earned run average. How many runs you give up in nine innings? Michael Hingson  50:43 Right. Evan Katz  50:43 I had an ERA of infinity. I'm in baseball reference with all these big known baseball players. I'm there with my my my stat line with an ERA of INF infinity, and I'm 65 years old, and I'm saying, man, I don't want to have an ERA of infinity. I don't want to retire with an ERA of infinity, so I got a hold of of Andrew Dunn again, and I said, Andrew, can I come out and pitch again? I want to get my ERA below infinity. I want to get somebody out. So it turns out in 2023, he assigned me to pitch for the Austin weirdos keep Austin weird, right? Keep Portland weird. Keep Burlington weird. You know, keep but whatever weird city you know they have their slogans of keeping the city weird. So Austin weirdos. And the interesting thing was that the weirdos that year in 2023, they had a home field in Austin, but it got burned out. They didn't they didn't have enough water, so they lost their home field. They turned into an all road team, and no player likes to drive through the Pecos League through the desert Southwest from Texas to Arizona, Michael Hingson  52:00 right Evan Katz  52:01 up to Kansas and Colorado for weeks on end. I get to the end of the season, the last weekend of the season in Alpine, Texas, to play the Alpine Cowboys, of course, in Texas, and the Austin Weirdos only have 11 players, and I can pitch. It's a Friday night, and there's a doubleheader on Saturday, and the manager decides, well, we got a guy here who hasn't pitched recently. He should start the game on Friday night. I get a text from the manager in the middle of the day. Evan, you're starting tonight, Derek Dominguez. Talk about no fear. Yeah, starting a 67-year-old pitcher against a lineup of 20-year, 25-year-olds, and I I started against the Alpine Cowboys, and talk about managing your fear. They have it's an old baseball stadium was built in the 1940s. It's got a grandstand behind home plate. You know, a couple things happen there. First of all, I get to the park early because the team was driving. They had to drive. This is the amazing thing. 1111, players. They had to drive 700 miles from the night before from Blackwell, Oklahoma, to Alpine. Michael Hingson  53:20 Wow. Evan Katz  53:22 The catcher comes in the dugout. Wonderful young man. You know, pitchers always worry who is going to catch them. Who's my catcher? And I'm in the dugout waiting, and a young man comes up to me, and he knows who I am, and he says, "I'm Marcus Bracy, and I'm catching you tonight. And the way he said that to me made me feel like he was going to take care of me, and we warmed up. I didn't have any fear. And one thing I did though, when I went out to the mound in the bottom of the first inning, and every inning after that, I made it to the fifth. By the way, I never looked up into the stands. I never wanted to see the crowd. I wanted to keep my eyes focused on this catcher, and that is what helped me get through. And I gave up two runs an inning into the fifth inning. And the interesting thing was that that that was about the team's average. The earned run average for the Austin Weirdos that year was 18 because they had lost so many players, they didn't have many pitchers, and I ended up for that game with an ERA of about 18. So I pitched the same as all the 25-year-old pitchers that pitched for Austin that year. Michael Hingson  54:39 There you go. That certainly is. That certainly is pretty cool. So, what year was that? Evan Katz  54:48 That was 2023. Michael Hingson  54:49 Okay. So, what's happened since? Evan Katz  54:52 Well, I was so taken by the Pecos League and some of the players there, and I had been coaching high school for three years. You know, I had. I had coached at Manchester Essex High School, just north of Boston. I had coached the pitchers and the catchers there. We won the state championship in 2022, and yeah, I saw I'd done a little bit of coaching. And I knew the Pecos League didn't have a lot of money. It didn't pay the players anything hardly. Players make less than $1,000 for most of the teams, and many of the coaches are volunteer coaches. And I asked one of the players; his name was Alex Westman, really nice, nice fellow. I met him for breakfast actually in the fall after the season. I was out visiting my my son in Arkansas. Met him in Missouri for breakfast, and I said, think, think the Pecos League could use a coach like me, and Alex is always an upbeat guy. And unfortunately, Alex was passed away a couple years ago in a tragic motorcycle accident. But I'll always be thankful for Alex for him saying to me, "Oh yeah, you should coach. So I got a hold of the commissioner. I I did coach for a few games for Roswell in 2024, but my mother-in-law took ill, and I had to come home. So last season I ended up teaming up with Todd Everleth, the manager of the North Platte '80s, who I had connected with during 2024 and introduced him to the league. He managed in North Platte, and I asked Todd if he could use a coach, and Todd invited me out to North Platte, Nebraska. And last summer, I was the bullpen coach. One of the hardest things I've ever done, if not the hardest, going from high school coaching to professional coaching at age 69, but somehow it was successful. I helped the pitchers. We ended up going to the the second round of the playoffs. We had a couple of guys called up to higher level leagues, and and it was a success. But but it was again one of the hardest things I've ever done, but at the same time, one of the most rewarding. Michael Hingson  57:04 That's pretty cool. You you did you did so much of that. So you also you've been coaching. So you've been coaching a fair amount over the last few years. You said I think at one point, you were the worst coach in 2025. Evan Katz  57:23 Oh right, not not the worst, close, the least qualified. Oh, the Michael Hingson  57:28 least qualified. Okay, right. Yeah, this is a good story. Evan Katz  57:31 So, so, so Todd and I, you know, Todd Everleth, we're driving his truck around the Midwest. I don't know, it's probably the second second or third road trip, but I'm I'm sitting there, and I'm really beginning to understand the credentials, my new Todd's credentials, and the credentials of the other coaches in in in the Pecos League, which, as I mentioned, is the lowest level of independent baseball. It's not connected to Major League Baseball, and I'm thinking to myself, there's got to be 1000s and 1000s of coaches in professional baseball, major leagues, minor leagues, other independent leagues. Here I am. I'm a coach in the Pecos League. I I have three years of high school coaching experience. I have got to be the least qualified coach in professional baseball. So I said, Todd, I think I'm the least qualified coach in professional baseball, and he he got a real kick out of that. Michael Hingson  58:30 Well, so the real question is, what's going to happen this year? What are you doing now? Evan Katz  58:35 Well, this year, you know, I I am definitely retiring from coaching, as I mentioned, you know, at my age, 69, coaching in professional baseball, you know, your your days start early. They go till late at night. You're traveling a lot in the Pecos League. We drove our own cars, so we drove over 7000 miles last summer. Michael Hingson  58:57 Wow! Evan Katz  58:57 And that that was on top of driving out to Nebraska and coming home, so over 10,000 miles over the course of the summer, way way too demanding. So, but what I'm what I'm doing, Michael, is I think that that I really have some some lessons to share and some experiences to share. And as I as I joked with Todd and some of the other players, the the pitchers out in the bullpen. We were sitting out in the bullpen one night, and the pitchers knew that I wasn't didn't have a lot of experience. And once we all got used to each other, we had a really good time out there. And I'd said to them, I said, I think I'm going to write a book, and the book is going to be the least qualified coach in professional baseball, a survival guide, basically telling the story of how somebody with the least credentials of all the professional coaches was able to figure out how to cope with the challenges and ultimately support the pitching staff. And contribute to the teams going 27 wins and 21 losses, making it the second round of the playoffs, and having players called up to higher level leagues. I think there's some lessons there to share to inspire other people, and so that that's my plan. I'm hoping to do a little bit of motivational speaking. I'm planning to write a book and tell the story of the least qualified coach in professional baseball. Michael Hingson  1:00:28 But you brought a lot of life experience to coaching. Evan Katz  1:00:31 Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, this is one of the things I had to figure out. I knew my technical background was limited, so I had to figure out how can I support these players, how can I be available, and I figured out where to where to sit in the bullpen, so I could listen to their conversations and chime in when needed, and still see what's going on in the game, where to where to be in the outfield during batting practice to have casual conversations, and then I also-I don't think I mentioned this earlier-I had a podcast that I did, and so the podcast, which had a weekly episode and a guest from the Pecos League, I was always looking for stories from the team to interject into the podcast, and that was a great conversation starter. I also took a lot of pictures of the players, candid shots that they would never have been able to take on their own, and then also provide some baseball lessons along the way. You know, there was one pitcher who was very dissatisfied with his outing one night. He said, "I didn't, I don't, I didn't strike out as many guys as I wanted, or I gave up too many runs. And I said, "You left the game when we were ahead here in the Pecos League, where the team score a lot of runs. It's not the absolute results; it's the relative results. Yeah, you did your job. You left the game with the '80s in the lead, and you did great. So I figured out ways to support these guys because they had their own challenges, being away from college, being away from home. Try to figure out how I could support them to bring out their best. Michael Hingson  1:02:12 What a great story, and what a a great insightful thing you said to that pitcher. Well, if people want to reach out to you, how can they do that? Evan Katz  1:02:21 Well, I have a website called Baseball by the Sea Media, where I have some of my writing that I talked about. I've done some baseball biographies and some baseball game stories and some exclusive stories. Baseball by the Sea Media. I'm also on LinkedIn. Those are probably the two easiest ways to find me. Michael Hingson  1:02:44 How do they find you on LinkedIn? Evan Katz  1:02:46 Evan Katz, just I don't think least qualified as a search parameter on LinkedIn. No, it's probably blocked. So, Michael Hingson  1:02:55 so Evan Katz is spelled Evan Katz  1:02:57 E V A N K A T Z. Michael Hingson  1:03:00 So there you go. Well, I want to tell you that when that book comes out, we have to to do another one of these because I want to really have a chance to feature the book and all that. So keep us posted. Evan Katz  1:03:13 Absolutely, I'm I'm I'm looking forward to to working on it, Michael. And I appreciate you having me on today. Michael Hingson  1:03:18 Well, I want to thank you, and I want to thank all of you for watching and listening, and I'd love to hear from you. Feel free to email me at speaker at michaelhinkson m i c h a e l h i n g s o n.com. Love it if you'd give us a five star rating, but more important than a rating, please give us a great review. Review the podcast and say nice things about Evan. That's a that's a beautiful thing to do. If anyone knows anyone who ought to be a guest on our podcast, Evan, including you, feel free to introduce us. We're always looking for people to come on and tell their stories. But for now, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank you for spending an hour with us and and making it a very enjoyable and an unstoppable day. Evan Katz  1:04:03 Absolutely, Michael, it's my pleasure. Michael Hingson  1:04:08 Thank you for being here with me on Unstoppable Mindset. I hope today's conversation left you with a fresh perspective, a new insight, or at least something worth thinking about. If you're ready to go deeper into the ideas that shape how we see ourselves and others, I have a free gift for you. Head over to michaelhingson.com and download my free ebook, Blinded by Fear. It explores the invisible beliefs that hold us back and shows you how to reframe them so you can move forward with clarity and confidence. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review, and share this show with someone who can use a reminder that growth starts with mindset. When people think differently, we all move forward. Together, thanks again for listening. Keep learning, keep questioning, and keep choosing to live with an unstoppable mindset.

Success does not always mean moving faster, achieving more, or keeping up with someone else’s timeline. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik has built a career across marketing, business development, media, travel, and entrepreneurship, yet some of her biggest lessons have come from learning when to slow down. Stephanie and I explore burnout, wellness, fear, AI, social media, intuition, and why our lives rarely follow a straight path. We talk about doing your best without needing to be the best, trusting your instincts, letting go of what you can’t control, and staying open when life changes the plan. I believe you’ll find useful ideas here about personal growth, resilience, and creating a life that feels like your own. Highlights: 0:10:15 - How high achievement can lead to burnout, stress, and health issues. 0:16:09 - Learning to control fear instead of letting fear control you. 0:24:30 - How asking, trying, and taking initiative can open new career paths. 0:35:35 - Doing your best matters more than being the best. 0:45:26 - Knowing when to stop pushing and let life unfold. 0:58:37 - Trying more helps you discover what you’re capable of. About the Guest: Dr. Stephanie Gutnik is President of tuxedo concepts, providing management consulting and public speaking to organizations across the world. Her focus areas are integrated marketing communications, business transformation and corporate wellness. She is also the author of the children’s book, “My Very Best”. Stephanie has spoken globally from Taiwan to Brazil, with notable events including Advertising Week New York and London, Ad Age’s Business of Brands in Chicago, Brand Innovators in New York, Possible in Miami and AdAI in Toronto. Her articles and interviews can be found in publications such as Adweek, AdExchanger, Digiday and the Association of National Advertisers. She has also been a juror for the likes of The Drum and Future is Female. As EVP Omnichannel at Wilkins Media, Stephanie has previously held roles as Global Chief Strategy Officer at Billups, Global Head of DOOH at Yahoo, Vice President of Digital Strategy and Programmatic Sales at OUTFRONT Media, and Vice President, Business Development at Broadsign. She sits on the Board of Directors of the Canadian Association of New York and Jewish Community Foundation of Montreal. Stephanie graduated with a BA from McGill University and has a MBA and doctorate from Edinburgh Business School. Ways to connect with Dr. Stephanie**:** People can follow me on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephaniegutnik/) Tuxedo concepts (tuxedoconcepts.com). My book is available through Amazon and directly through Book Baby (https://store.bookbaby.com/book/my-very-best) About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:04 What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe? Welcome to Unstoppable Mindset, where inclusion, diversity, and the unexpected meet. I'm your host, Michael Hingston, speaker, author, and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead, and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head-on, and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear. Together, we focus on mindset, resilience, and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Hi there! Welcome to another episode of Unstoppable Mindset. We're glad you're with us wherever you happen to be. Hope you're having a good day. Our person that we get to chat with today is Dr. Stephanie Gutnik, Doctor No Less. We'll have to find out about that, but she is is here from Toronto, where right now it's pretty cold because we're recording this on the 30th of January, so it's cold where she is. It's not quite as cold where I live in Victorville, California, but we're doing okay and we'll cope. So Dr. Gutnik is the president of Tuxedo Concepts, and I'm not going to go into any detail about it because I want to leave all that for her. So we'll just do it this way. Stephanie, welcome to Unstoppable Mindset. We're glad you're here. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  01:49 I am so glad to be here. Thank you. Michael Hingson  01:51 Why don't you tell us a little about maybe the early Stephanie growing up and all that? Let's start with that. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  01:57 All right. The early Stephanie grew up in Winnipeg, Manitoba, which is even colder than Toronto is this time. So I'm definitely used to snow and negative temperatures, and I just had a wonderful, wonderful upbringing to be in the prairies. You get perspective on a lot in life, and was very close with family, friends, and then very quickly I wanted to discover more of the world, so I left to study at McGill for undergrad, and it's in Montreal, in Canada. And my life took shape around that. I traveled the world. I continued my academic pursuits and certainly climbed my way up in the business world as well. Michael Hingson  02:47 How did travel to various places sort of shape your outlook on things? Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  02:54 I've always had the travel bug. Growing up, we would go away to you know different parts of the states and some warmer destinations with a family road trip as well. And then as I got older, it was it was Europe, it was Australia, and I was always very happy to travel alone or with groups of people that I met for the first time. And I was just really curious to see what life was like in other places, and that translated very nicely into my my working reality, where I was largely in marketing and business development throughout my career, and I was with companies at first that were rapidly expanding internationally. So I was able to open an office in China and set a business plan for you know hiring in the Middle East and go to South America and speak and and grow the business. So I'm really grateful because when I meet people now, typically wherever they're from, I can you know pick my favorite food that I ate while I was there, and we have something to smile about and talk about. Michael Hingson  04:04 That's pretty cool. Well, I I haven't traveled as as much as you have, but I've traveled enough, and I enjoy travel. I enjoy going to different places and meeting people and experiencing different customs. And even around the United States, there's so many diverse and different kinds of environments. It's it's pretty fascinating. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  04:25 Very much. Do you have a favorite place in the U.S. Michael Hingson  04:29 Oh, it's still going to be California because the weather's better. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  04:34 I hear you. I Michael Hingson  04:35 my favorite place is probably in the San Diego area because I think it's still the best weather anywhere. It's a temperate climate. It's a good climate. It doesn't really get cold to freezing very often, although it can in the winter. But it warms right up during the day. So I really like San Diego. We enjoyed my wife and I living in San the San. San Francisco area. We lived in a town called Novato, which is in the North Bay of the San Francisco area. We lived there for 12 years, and I enjoyed that too. But San Diego still has the best weather. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  05:12 The air in La Jolla is is delicious. Michael Hingson  05:17 Oh yeah, Speaker 1  05:18 yeah, Michael Hingson  05:19 and and of course that's the whole point. La Jolla is such a nice place, and it's northern San Diego County, and you've got the beach, and you've got the university there, and so many other things that make it a nice place. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  05:32 Very true. Michael Hingson  05:33 Now I live in Victorville, which is kind of up on the high desert of California, so it's not exactly the same. And I never thought I would live here. But we moved here because it was the only property in Southern California when we wanted to move down to be closer to family. It was the only property that we or place where we found property where we could build a home, and we wanted to build a home because my wife was in a wheelchair her whole life, so we wanted to build an accessible home, and that's what we did. So we've been here now. I've been here for well. We moved down in July of 2014. So my gosh, it's going to be 12 years in five months, Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  06:13 isn't it? It's funny that you say that because I always find in life there just you find yourself in circumstances that you did not plan, and then they become rather permanent, and you can't really envision your life without that place or that circumstance. Michael Hingson  06:30 I hear you. I agree. And well, and you know, this house is very comfortable. I like it. My wife unfortunately passed away in November of 2022, so it's me, a dog, and a cat, but I enjoy it, and I'm I'm perfectly happy here. I said I never thought I would live in Victorville, but that's okay. That is where I am, and the house is wonderful, so I I'm I'm fine with it. If I had one thing to say about Victorville, it is the drivers up here all think they own the road, and they're as far as I'm concerned. I ought to be able to get a driver's license because I could drive as well as a lot of the people up here. I don't see the problem myself. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  07:12 But up until recently, I hadn't driven a car in like at least 12 years, just from living, you know, in more cosmopolitan cities, and really enjoying a good walk. Michael Hingson  07:24 Yeah, Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  07:24 just yeah. Michael Hingson  07:25 But you drive now? Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  07:27 No, I've just been behind the wheel to break that. Break that. Michael Hingson  07:31 Just to get into that habit. Yeah. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  07:33 Totally. Yeah. Michael Hingson  07:35 Well, and Toronto, you you can certainly get around Toronto without a lot Of grief, Speaker 2  07:41 totally, Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  07:41 yeah. I am. I very much value the ability to live somewhere where you can just run out and pick something up to eat, or you know, see people around you. I think it's important. Certainly, it feeds me. Michael Hingson  07:58 Yeah. So, and I and really, for the most part, enjoyed living in New Jersey and working in New York City. New York City is a great place to be able to get around. It's pretty easy to to travel anywhere in the city, subways and all that. Now, it wasn't as easy for my wife because she was in a wheelchair her whole life, and a lot of subway stations and so on aren't accessible. But one day, it was actually before we moved back there. We were both we were in the city, and my wife wanted to go see the UN, and it turns out that she could go downstairs in the hotel where where we were staying, and I was doing other work. But she was able to get a bus that took her right to where the UN was. She could wheel across the street and take a tour of the United Nations and so on, and then take the bus back home because everything was accessible. So she was really excited about having had the opportunity to do that. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  09:09 I love that. Michael Hingson  09:11 Yeah, I was at. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  09:12 It really is, and it's important. I was at Yahoo for a couple years, running a division there globally, and when I started, it was part of Verizon Media. Yes, Verizon Media, part of Verizon, and the work that groups were doing on accessible features and technology really intrigued me. And you kind of think there should be an element of that at every company producing whatever it is that they're doing because it makes such a difference. Michael Hingson  09:41 Well, when you think about it in terms of, let's say, in the U.S. for example, the Center for Disease Control says that up to 25% of all people have a disability. Now, I disagree with that, and I'll come back to that in a moment. But they say 25% have a disability, and so often. Often companies don't deal with that. They're leaving out 25% of their prospective customers because they don't want to make things accessible. And there is so much evidence to show that companies that do create accessibility get the brand loyalty and they get the business, Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  10:21 yeah. Michael Hingson  10:22 And the reason I object to 25% is my belief is everybody has a disability. For most of you, it's light dependence. You all don't do well when the lights go out, unless you happen to have a smartphone or a flashlight or whatever. So I describe disability as a characteristic that everyone has. It's just that it manifests itself differently for different people, but that's that's that's my view on it. And one of these days, we'll get more of society to recognize that there is a lot more that they need to do to to to deal with preventing this whole business of leaving so many people out. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  11:00 I mean, I couldn't agree more with you. By the way, and there's also, you know, call it disability or whatever you want. Everybody has something in their life that you know it either doesn't make it as easy or makes it their own. And so the whole point of you know when you talk about a customer base, really just interacting as humans, it's how do we how do we understand that everybody is dealing with you know one thing and what can we do and you know throughout my throughout my working career I was somebody who like despite being born in Winnipeg I should have been born in Manhattan because my work ethic is one where I'll work day and night and be very happy about it. I walk quickly. I get things done quickly, and so it was. You know, if you if you give me a challenge, I'll do anything to you know fulfill it. And I think what has what I've seen with myself and amongst others in my network, is that that type of personality begets a whole slew of other issues: burnout, health issues, stress. And so, one thing that I developed and have started to take on the road. I know you're a public speaker. I am as well. I call it the wellness workshop, and it's not you know get up at five in the morning and do your yoga and then your 30 minute meditation and then your your 5k run or it really is much more more tangible and certain tips and tricks that we can do when we're on an airplane or you know in a hotel or just in a period where we're feeling overwhelmed, and I really believe that we have to be cognizant of what's going on with each other in the workplace and just in general, and be able to offer some of the these these guidelines to just help everyone, you know, be okay, if you will. Michael Hingson  13:00 One of the things that I have adopted as a pretty hard line way of living is when I'm flying to travel and speak. I don't want to work on the airplane going or coming. Rather, I'll use that time to sort of mentally prepare because when I get off the airplane at a destination, I know I'm on until I get off until I fly out again. There are going to be people who want my attention and all that. So I use that time to relax, and then when I leave again, I don't want to work. I want to be able to kind of unwind. So I like to read and do things like that, but I I use those airplane flights basically as a time to unplug. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  13:49 Yeah, and see, you're being mindful of the space that you need to let yourself unwind and be that much more productive, and have your battery recharged when you're when you're landed. But I think more Michael Hingson  14:01 people should do that. And there are so many different kinds of things that we can do. We collectively, as a society, tend not to be overly introspective. We don't think about things. So something doesn't go right. We consider it a failure. We worry about it. We fret about it. But what we don't do is listen to our own inner voice, and we don't analyze well. So, what was the real problem here? What am I afraid of? What can I do to make sure that this doesn't happen again? We don't ask ourselves those questions. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  14:31 Oh wow! I kind of needed to hear that actually today. So, thank you for bringing that up. You're very right. Michael Hingson  14:37 Is that because you haven't figured out why you live in the snow. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  14:41 I'm working on that. Yeah, there you are. Yeah, cold is actually very good for our vagus nerves. So yeah, Michael Hingson  14:48 well, I it it gets fairly cool here at night. It was down to oh what 27 degrees, so it was like minus. Two or three Celsius a couple of weeks ago here, and but I am I I can keep pretty warm, and when I'm sleeping at night, my cat sleeps right up next to me. She does it because it keeps her warm, but it helps keep me warm too. So I'm not complaining. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  15:19 There you go. Michael Hingson  15:20 But I minus Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  15:21 minus two. By the way, that's beach weather. Michael Hingson  15:24 Yeah, yeah. Well, there you are. Yeah, fine. You go to the beach then. But I, but I think that we we really do need to collectively and individually think about the need to unplug to to not just always do every single thing and that the same way, and then when there's a problem, we don't take time to think about it, which is a real problem. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  15:51 There's also the concept of I don't know if we're raised with this or if at some point we think this is what happens in society, but to think that our lives are almost like a staircase, and that the older we get, the further up the staircase we should be going, is is quite a fallacy. Because again, it you know you're gonna it's just not how it works. Sometimes things stay flat. Sometimes you're gonna go down a few steps. And no, this is called. We're all about the unstoppable mindset here, right? So it really is. If you're falling down a few stairs, what do you do to get back up? I would say, Michael Hingson  16:31 right? Yeah, and that's and that's it. And you have to really look for that answer, which is which is Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  16:40 the issue. So, Michael Hingson  16:41 yeah, go ahead. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  16:42 I was just going to say, like, is that something that people can learn, or is it something that you, you know, is ingrained in you from a younger age? Michael Hingson  16:51 Well, I think that for some people it it may be, and I think, but it is a matter of life. It is a matter of upbringing. I think it is something that people can learn. So during the pandemic, I wrote my book "Live Like a Guide Dog: True Stories for a Blind Person and His Dogs About Being Brave, Overcoming Adversity, and and Moving Forward in Faith. And what I talk about through as the basic premise of the book is that in reality, we can learn to control fear. I will not say we should never be a. We should never say we're not afraid. We should never say that. Oh, I don't ever experience fear. We do experience fear, and it's evidenced in so many ways. But you can either allow fear to overwhelm you and and as I would put it, blind you, or you can learn to control fear. You can learn that fear can be a very powerful tool to help you. And my evidence of that is that I learned so much prior to September 11th about what to do in emergency and other things like that. And all of that clicked in on September 11th. But I realized during the beginning of the pandemic that I'd never taught other people to do the kinds of things that that I do, and that I still tend to do. And so, I wrote "Live Like a Guide Dog" to to try to teach people by using examples that I learned from my eight guide dogs and my wife's service dog about how to live. So, the example I use most often is people. What if everything to death? Well, what if this happens? What if that happens? What if this? What if that? And the reality is, 95% of that will we have no control over, and all we do is create fear and worry because we keep going "What if" about this, and there's nothing we can do about it. I'm not saying that we shouldn't be aware of things, but we don't have to worry about them. We don't have to focus on all the stuff over which we have no control. Dogs don't. What if anything? And I learned that because on September 11th, when we got home, I was going to take my guide dog Rozelle out. I took the harness off, and she ran off and grabbed her favorite tug toy and started playing tug of war with my retired guide dog Linnie. And when I talked to the people, the veterinarians at Guide Dogs for the Blind, where I got Roselle, I talked to them the next day. They said, "Well, did anything threaten her at the World Trade Center? And I said, "No. And they said, "There's your answer. When the harness came off, it was over for her. They don't. They don't. What if? And we should learn that. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  19:27 And she wasn't. She wasn't processing what just happened. She just moved on. Michael Hingson  19:32 She moved on. You know, and and people still today fear it, and they worry about so many Things as I said, the the fact is we should be aware, but it doesn't mean that we have to worry about, especially if we don't have control over it. I rented office space in the World Trade Center in late 1999, early 2000, and. I was able to get office space because there had been a bombing in the World Trade Center in 1993. It wasn't much of a bombing. It was an explosion in a parking lot on the fourth sub sub level of the World Trade Center. So it wasn't the last. Yeah, it wasn't a big thing, but the occupancy rate by the time I was looking for office space, had dropped to 80% and why? If if something were to happen, something would would happen. But people worried about it, and so many people left the World Trade Center, and I thank them for doing that because I got a great rate, and we rented office space there. So fine, but but the fact of the matter is that we worry about so many things over which we just don't have control, Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  20:48 right? So you're a bit of a risk taker too in that sense. Michael Hingson  20:51 Well, in a sense, but you know, so there was a bomb that a car something exploded, and I understand that, but was it a true risk to go off and rent space in that building and that complex afterward? Well, is there risk in doing it today with the new complex? The fact of the matter is that there are always going to be things that can happen. the The question is, is it really taking a risk, or are you being silly and putting yourself in harm's way? I won't do that if I can avoid it. But that doesn't mean that I'm not gonna gonna be out there and try to live my life and and help others do the same. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  21:38 That's the biggest thing: not living in fear of of so many different variables, Michael Hingson  21:44 right? So you went to McGill, and you you worked in you graduated with what degrees in business or what? Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  21:53 No, I graduated with a bachelor of arts in political science and communications. Okay, I went to McGill thinking that I was going to become a broadcast journalist. I loved the idea of being on camera and in the heat of something going on. And I've been told that I ask a lot of questions, and it's just it comes naturally. I'm very curious, so I love speaking to people and getting their opinions on various things, and then bringing that all together for what hopefully is a representative story of multiple truths, right? And I'm still like that to this day. So everything, if I had you know strength, it would be how do I compile a lot of information and then kind of organize it to to cut certain things out and really get at the crux of whatever it is that we're dealing with. So I loved I loved that. I still do. I had an internship at CTV Montreal, so it was a big news station nationally in Canada. And you know what? It was one of those things where I just didn't feel like a fit for me at that time, and so again, it's what do you do after? Oh, I was entering my my last year of undergrad, and I I thought, okay, maybe I'll just go do a master's because I really loved. I've always loved school, and instead, I got the advice: just go out there and pick something and work a little bit and figure out, you know, what it is that you want to do from there. When you're, I graduated a year early, so I was 21. It is hard to know what you want to do, right? I think a lot of young people find themselves in that position, and instead of, I guess, going back to the idea of fear, instead of being paralyzed by it and not doing anything, just do something, and at least it puts you on some sort of path. So, what did Michael Hingson  23:44 you do? Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  23:45 I got lucky. I ended up working for News Corp in Montreal for a couple of years in advertising sales, and that introduced me to the world of advertising. It helped me refine sales sales, you know, efforts and and skills, and I think that understanding how sales work, whatever you do in your life, that's going to come in handy, right? So I was doing that, and I was dealing with agencies and marketers for various different brands, like L'Oreal, for example, Denon, and I liked what they were doing. So then that led me to a job in marketing for a software company, and that's the story: is marketing turned into business development and partnerships, and launching a new tech effort and expanding with that company across the world. And I was able to lean into a lot of writing and speaking, and that's that's how my career evolved. And I did my MBA while I was working for that company, so there were a lot of lots of studying during plane rides. So not quite the unwinding, but it was definitely a break. From the actual work, Michael Hingson  25:02 well, that's fine, and you, you, you've you've done a lot with it. So you got your master's degree. Where did you get that from? Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  25:11 That was from Edinburgh Business School. So I did that remotely because I was traveling a lot, and I had a lot of business in the UK. So it made sense to do something around there, and again from there I was recruited to. I built a lot of my own positions while I was at this company, always going, "Oh, this isn't being dealt with. Why don't I take a stab at it and see what happens? Oh, there's a gap here. Let me figure that out. Even you know, the Middle East is one that I like talking about because at the time we were not doing any business there, and I had a hunch that I was like, "Look at all the research. We should be there. We should have a sales rep at least. And the CEO at the time said, "No, no, it's it's not really. I don't agree. So we made a deal for a small amount of money. I was able to figure out my trip and see if I could make a business plan, and so I took a flight from Montreal that had two stops to get there. Lost my luggage, and I know. But on the way back, I mean, long story short, the company now has a thriving business in that region, and while I was there, maybe there's a certain age at which you don't know any better. But I think I've always had this and always will. Is I was raised to understand that if you don't ask, either you don't get or you won't know. So I reached out to the editor of Golf News, which is their biggest paper there? And I said, "Hey, you know, I'm here growing a business in this industry. Can I write an article for you? And he said, "Yes, and it was published. And so stories like that is it kind of defines my life. I always like to figure out what else I could do and and learn from it and push the envelope a little bit. Michael Hingson  27:02 Yeah, sometimes you have to to take a stand. Sometimes you you have to develop your own mental toughness. And when when people disagree, you unless they can really present some strong argument, then you really just need to to push forward. And and clearly that's what you did, Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  27:21 yeah. And look, sometimes you're right, and sometimes you're wrong, and that's a learning experience in itself, and that's part of being humbled. And I think that's equally as important. Michael Hingson  27:32 Yeah, and it's all part of the adventure of life. If Speaker 3  27:40 you enjoy Unstoppable Mindset and would like to help us continue bringing these conversations to you each week, we've created a way for you to support the show. Your contribution helps us cover production costs and continue sharing stories, insights, and ideas that inspire people to live with purpose and possibility. If supporting the podcast feels right for you, you'll find the link in the show notes. Thank you for being part of the Unstoppable Mindset Community. Michael Hingson  28:13 What made you decide to get a doctorate? Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  28:16 Ah, so after the MBA again, I loved school, and I figured, why not just keep going? And I was moving to New York, and it was my mom who said, "You know what, Steph? Like, you're. I think I was I was 26. She goes, "Just enjoy your life a little bit, and she wasn't wrong. So I took a few years, and after that, it was still at the back of my mind. I still really wanted to continue and take my education as far as I could. So I thought long and hard about what I would want to study for that kind of time. And you know, it's not going to change the world. But I studied the advertising effects of mass media and ones that have been changing as a result of you know the whole media landscape has been digitized, so that's what I did. And actually, the the brand that I worked with for my research is a company out of California called Goodr. So they they make sunglasses, and I worked with their marketing team, and it was just a wonderful experience. And again, it's a different way of thinking. By that point, I was very much an executive, and I had been at private and public companies. And going back to school in that sense and learning, you know, in the business world, everything is about being concise, which I think is a very powerful skill to have. And in academia, you slow things down, and you really look at the whole picture plus all of the small, small details that build it. So, I'm an impatient person, and that definitely took some some work, but I loved the whole process. It wasn't easy, but I'm very happy that I did it. Michael Hingson  30:03 So, when did you get your PhD? Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  30:05 I graduated. I want to say two odd years ago, two or three years ago. Michael Hingson  30:11 Congratulations! Well, that's cool. Thank you Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  30:13 very much. Yeah. Michael Hingson  30:15 How how do you think that AI is affecting the the world of media, the world of public relations and marketing, and so on. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  30:27 So, despite working in ad tech, I myself am quite a luddite. I I'm very removed. I don't have too much social media, and usually with technology, unless it really benefits me, I'm not going to be the first. I'm not going to be an early adopter, if you will. So with AI, I appreciate you know the the code and so on that it's built on all of the the knowledge behind it and how it works. And I definitely think there's so many realms in which it's going to help us advance as a society, and I think that with advertising and marketing and media, AI helps take out. It's there's something that preceded it in terms of media buying called programmatic that I've spent a lot of my career dedicated to, and programmatic just really automated media buying and selling, made a little bit easier than picking up the phone and calling two dozen different vendors to put a campaign together, and so with AI, it does that even more so. It just takes out a lot of the more tedious and redundant work from media planners to strategists and helps us understand a little bit better how marketing dollars are actually put to work, and how effective they are in terms of the results that we see. But here's the thing: is as much as AI is going to simplify certain processes, we, at the end of the day, are human beings, and the reason why, as far as I know, nobody's really mastered the stock market yet. It's because we're driven by emotion and we're fickle, and think it takes a lot for a machine to understand how we think and how we work. And so the same thing applies to advertising because for an ad to be effective, it has to strike a chord with humans somehow. So I think that by nature of us being human, the the world of advertising will still have media departments and creative teams, and have to continue to think about you know the strategy behind what it is that we're doing. Michael Hingson  32:34 How about social? What would you say? Well, I I think there's a lot of truth to all that. I think that AI is a tool, and different people will use it in different ways. And I'm not going to even go to the negative aspects of it because the the reality is most anything that we create, somebody will find a way to misuse it, and and I can't worry about that. But I do see the value of AI and the AI technology, in terms of how it can help us codify or create different kinds of aspects of whether it's marketing or or anything else, AI can assist us. But it is a tool, and we're still the humans, and we're going to be the ones that will be in control. I'm not ready to accept that it can take over in the end. I don't think that's going to happen. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  33:28 I'm still. I'm still not even thinking about Michael Hingson  33:32 it. Yeah, I just think I think there are a lot of ways that we can use it. AI has done already a number of really good things for us collectively, and I think that's great. That doesn't mean that we're all going to use it, or that doesn't mean that we'll all use it extremely, well, in an extremely productive way all the time. But it is out there, and I think it's again, it's one of those things that's worth learning about and understanding because it's going to be here. It's not going away, Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  34:07 right? Michael Hingson  34:08 How about social media? That's the that's the other one that's become even more pervasive. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  34:14 And social media, again, just by nature of who I am, I am not big on it, and it's not knocking it. I just know that it's not, it's not something that I want to have in my life to the extent that some others do want it in theirs. I'm really good with just doing my own thing and focusing on my little bubble in terms of you know the restaurants that I choose to go to and what food I'm eating and and all of that and with the people who are in my life I love hearing from them directly and getting updates and seeing their pictures so I definitely I use LinkedIn for business I think it's fantastic yeah and it's a wonderful platform to to build a profile and interact with people. Your world that way, and I think that there's a lot of people doing the same with other platforms. And so, when I look at social media from a business perspective, I think it's amazing. And when I look at it from a personal perspective, again, it's not for me, but I I think if people enjoy being on it, that's totally up to them. I can't. I just don't really have the patience to to. I'd rather do something else. I'd rather work on, you know, either my my full time job or my my business is on the side, or go for a walk. Quite frankly. Well, Michael Hingson  35:39 I think again, I'm I'm I'm kind of with you. I think that, especially personally speaking, people who spend hours a day on social media are missing out on so many other kinds of things that would would be even better. And and a lot of that has to do with personal contact with other people, which you don't have. No matter what people may say, you don't have when you're just dealing with communicating through social media. That's not the same. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  36:08 It's true. Plus, there's the element. Yeah, and there's I think people feel pressure, and we see this. It goes both ways, but I do think there's a bit of a pressure to put your best foot forward in a social media environment, right? Whether it's Photoshop or editing or posing for you know a lovely photo when you're not doing great, whatever it might be, and I think that's slowly changing. But for me, it's more. Think we're all just trying to do our best, and you know, I don't. It just doesn't work for me on a personal level. Michael Hingson  36:45 Yeah, I think we should try to be doing our best all the time, anyway. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  36:48 Yeah, that's true. Exactly. We should. Well, that actually leads me to. This is a. You know, I'm. I'm going to go for it. This is a plug. It's. I wrote a book called My Very Best for that reason. Actually, I was going to talk to you about that. Yeah, go Michael Hingson  37:03 ahead. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  37:04 So you know exactly what you're doing. Yeah. And by the Michael Hingson  37:07 way, I would appreciate it because I don't think that you did send me a picture of the book cover that we can put in the the notes, the show notes. I Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  37:14 did, and I will follow up with that again. Thank you so much. It's that was something that I've always wanted to do. When I was younger, my mom tells me about how I used to bring a stack of books over to her to read to me, and I definitely have fond memories of reading books to my sister, who's younger than me. And I've always just loved children's books because they're they're so beautiful in their simplicity and the way that they can frame a young mind into being curious and imagining and learning so much about the world, and so I wanted to definitely write a book about the values that my sister and I were raised with. She told me that she was having our first child about a year ago at this time, and so in that time frame, I was like, "This is the moment. This is when I have to write a book. And so I wrote it for for him and her, my nephew. And it was one thing where I just I started with writing out the the copy, and then I needed to get it illustrated, and then from there I was like, you know what? I've done all this work. Let me let me publish it. And so I just was a big learning experience and so much fun. And I had readings, and I just went to go see it on the shelf at Canada's biggest bookstore called Indigo. And I'm I'm so thrilled. So I wrote it because my parents really-they raised my sister and I to really understand that it's not about being the best; it's about giving something your best effort. Because that way, you know, if you do well, great-you worked really hard to get there. And if you don't do well, you're not going to be wondering, hmm, if I only had tried more, because then you're disappointed with yourself. So it's about setting yourself up to always be proud of who you are, and that's really important to me. Michael Hingson  39:11 Are there any books, other books inside of you that may come on in the future? Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  39:14 Oh, well, that one I I'm loving right now. If we consider my thesis, my doctoral thesis, a book, that one will put you to sleep because it's long and quite academic. Many theses Michael Hingson  39:31 will do that. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  39:32 Yeah, and I think I quite like. I can see moving forward the more journalistic style articles. So maybe there are a few of those that address very specific moments or questions. Maybe we'll we'll see some of those come out. And what about you? Given that you are also you're a New York Times bestseller, do you have anything up your sleeve? Michael Hingson  39:53 Not at the moment, but we'll see down the line. But one of the things that that I believe. His and I and I've roused about this even on the podcast a few times. I think that textbooks are so boring, and they shouldn't be. I think that every every textbook that that someone writes ought to have some personal things in it to help draw readers into being more excited about learning more about what's in the textbook. So a physics book is is real lovely, but it's very boring. Why don't Why don't they have Why don't the physicists, the scientists who create those books, put in as part of what they do some stories about their efforts, some stories about the discoveries they've made to really make the books more personal and to draw people in. Publishers don't want that, but the reality is it would really attract, I think, a lot more interest in textbook material. And and the same thing with technical journals and technical manuals. They're so boring, and there's so much more that could be done with them. I think that would would attract people much more than than they do today. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  41:07 There's something about humanizing and adding a little bit of maybe even imperfection. Dare I say, like, hey, this is what happened, and let's be real about the situation. That yeah, makes it more entertaining for sure. Yeah, Michael Hingson  41:20 yeah, which I think makes makes perfect sense, and and it would be I think a wonderful thing to do. Well, maybe we'll have to start a new publishing company and insist that the people who write books for our company do that. Some to think about it. I'm with you. We Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  41:38 can we can offline on that. Michael Hingson  41:40 Yeah, ought to be able to do something with it. Well, so anyway, for you, so you wrote the children's book, and and it's out there. Did you self publish it, or was it published by a company? Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  41:53 Yeah, I went through a company based in New Jersey, and they just had the perfect platform and distribution for me, and it really-I would say-around the time that I was 35, which is now when I turned that age, I really started thinking about like you know, okay, our life doesn't have to be cut and paste, and there really is no manual. And I had thought that for most of it, I would look at people that I admire or respect, or people around me, and look at them, evaluate the milestones that they had reached by specific ages, and then I'd look at myself, and you know, sometimes I was feeding those milestones. In my opinion, like I, I worked my way up the corporate ladder very quickly, but there were other ways in which, at the time, I thought I was lagging or, or dare I say, failing, because certain other elements of my life weren't where other people's were, or I thought it should be. So I've been going through a process really of of letting that go, and again, just to your going full circle to what you said earlier, just being a bit more introspective and appreciating that we're all again trying to just do our best here, and nobody's journey is going to look the same. So with that has just come. I've always again I've always wanted to try new things, but it always is. I'll wake up in the morning and go like, you know, what do I want to do today? Who should I reach out to to see if there's some way to collaborate or have a new experience? And it's just made for really fun travels and stories and successes and and learning experiences. And I'm, but I'm working on that. I can say that as much as I want, and I think, you know, it's it's really believing it that is a bit more of an effort. Michael Hingson  43:48 Well, there you go, and you know, it'll it'll be interesting to to see how it all comes out as you go forward. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  43:54 Yeah, did you have that at all throughout yours? As you know, those periods of of Like plateaus, Michael Hingson  44:02 I think probably so, but I but I don't think that I really ever thought that that I was failing. There were times that that things were not happening the way I would like, and usually what I needed to do was to make an adjustment in my attitude to understand why things were going slower or not the way I expected, and sometimes they weren't going the way I expected because I had the wrong expectations. And again, I love introspection, and those are things that I learned along the way. And I also discovered that when I reevaluated and said, "Oh, maybe this really wasn't the right way to do this. Let's look at this. I think that's that's an important thing to do, but I usually find, and I still do, that if something's not working right. Usually, my inner voice, if you will, will tell me what is good, what's working, what's not working, what should be done, and I have to be the one to pay attention to that. and And if I don't, then I can get into trouble. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  45:15 It's amazing how much our our gut instincts really know what's best for us in certain situations, and how sometimes it takes a minute for our brain to to get there too. Michael Hingson  45:29 Yeah. Now, are you a spiritual person at all? Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  45:32 Oh, totally. Another good segue. Yes, I believe in the scientific method, obviously. So, so that's that's that. But I am comforted by the idea that there's a lot more to what we're doing here than what is commonly accepted. Michael Hingson  45:50 Yeah, I think I think that's absolutely true, and that gets back to my comment about the inner voice, which is, if you want to say God talking to us or however you want to view it. It doesn't matter. the The point is that I think the information is there if we learn to listen and and accept it. Our our own minds absorb so many things that we tend to forget about, but all that information is there for us to use if we would, but tap into it, Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  46:24 yeah, Michael Hingson  46:24 or allow it, or when it and it when it tries to tap us on the shoulder and say do it this way, we need to learn to listen. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  46:32 Ooh, and that's a great point too. Is for people who are used to propelling, you know, things forward, and you had mentioned what's out of our control. That's another really important word that I speak about in wellness and has been given to me. Yeah, do I see a do I see a psychic? Absolutely. I often get the words render because, again, sometimes it's just it's being able to to accept, and I do a little bit of Kabbalah in terms of reading and and learning about how that works. And the the term actually means to receive. So when we look at what we're doing here again, I think you want to put out some energy to put things in motion, and then there's a point where you just have to let life come to you. Michael Hingson  47:21 Well, and I think also it's it's so helpful at night to when when falling asleep, even you want to do something. Ask your ask yourself, what do you think about this? Should I do this? Give me guidance and give me insight as to what works. The more of that we do, the more we develop our mind muscle to be able to get the information and process it and do something with it, and that will help us. But it it has to be a discipline that we create and develop to really work on getting that information and seeking it every day, and listening to what our minds are telling us. I, people probably will get bored with this because I say it often on the podcast, but I talk about Trivial Pursuit. You know the game. How often do we get a question asked on a game, Trivial Pursuit, and we immediately think of an answer, and we go, "Oh, that was just too easy. That can't be it. And we think a little bit more about other options, and we choose a different option. But the first one that we thought about was really the right answer. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  48:33 Yes, Michael Hingson  48:34 exactly. And the point is that happened, and people agree. Now, what do we do about it? Well, we learn to listen to that inner voice. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  48:42 The same thing happens with students, by the way, on exams. Multiple choice is not always that easy because so many students have the tendency to second guess themselves. Michael Hingson  48:53 Yeah, Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  48:54 and it's usually that their first instinct was the right answer. Michael Hingson  48:57 Right. Yeah. If they would just but listen and learn; they'll get the right answer by doing that. And and the reality is that I think there are some studies that have been done that people that truly do learn to listen and take those first answers and use them tend to be right a whole lot more often than they otherwise would have been, Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  49:21 yeah. Again, trusting our instincts, Michael Hingson  49:25 right? Yeah. So, what kind of projects are you working on now? Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  49:30 Oh, well, again, I I'm an EVP at an ad agency, so that's my that's my full time project. EVP. But then I always EVP, Executive Vice President. Michael Hingson  49:40 Oh, EVP. Okay, yeah, Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  49:41 yeah. Okay, Michael Hingson  49:42 VP. Okay, got Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  49:43 it. Yeah, with an E. You know, if we're if we're looking at, so that keeps me very busy. And then on the side, I always again, I think it's very important to have an identity outside of work, and this is something that I actually had to learn. Because for a while there, my my job title and so on was my whole life, and you can do have hobbies and so on. The side for me, it has to be more constructive than that. So the other things that I have on the go is I have my company Tuxedo Concepts, where I do all different types of consulting work. I have clients across the world in the world of media through to you know a private equity fund called Links Equity, and I'm actually working on a protein superfood snack right now called Balance Bites. So that's another I'm snacking all the time, and I have a massive sweet tooth, so usually I'm going for like the brownies and the cookies, and I work with the founder of this brand, and they're packed with a lot of nutrients that give me a lot more energy throughout the day. So that is something that I definitely want to bring to more people. Michael Hingson  50:58 Oh, that's exciting! Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  50:59 It lines very nicely with this this whole wellness kick that that I'm trying to bring to others, but not not in the lifestyle that's impractical to some people or makes them you know not even want to think about it. More so again with those ideas of if you're feeling overwhelmed or anxious, splash some cold water on your face, right? Like there's there's certain tips like that that you don't have to go to a yoga studio or sign up for a gym membership. Though you know you should be exploring physical activity. It's what are small things that we can be doing for ourselves to bring us back into the moment. Michael Hingson  51:37 Do you think there are things in your life that that you're not doing that-that you should be doing, or that that you miss. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  51:46 Oh, on a personal level, I feel yeah. At this age, that probably from a family perspective, I should be getting on that. But that is one of those things that is so out of our control, and I find that in those instances, just it's very easy to look at what we don't have and yearn for it, but that can be depressing. So instead, it's it's much more fulfilling to look at what we do have and lean into that. Right? Michael Hingson  52:19 Yeah, I know that when my wife and I got married, we both pretty much thought we knew what we wanted in a partner, and we kept looking until we found it. We found each other, and and that worked. But we were I was 32 and she was 33, so we didn't get married right away, but the other side of it is we met in January of 1982, and we got married in November of 1982 because it clicked. We knew what we wanted, and we saw things in so many ways exactly the same. But there were also times that we disagreed with things. But you communicate. You you work through it, right? Michael Hingson  53:03 So, for example, she didn't want to have children because she felt that that would be kind of hard on her body being in a chair in her case, and I was fine with that. But our our solution to that was we'll be glad to entertain nieces and nephews and things like that because at the end of the day, we can either sell them to the gypsies or send them home, Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  53:24 and that's beautiful, right? You still have such a wonderful impact on other people, and that's a thank you for sharing that. And one of my one Michael Hingson  53:34 of our nieces lives about three miles from me, and we see each other all the time. She and her husband, and now their kids are grown and have kids of their own, so we we get to see everybody. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  53:47 That is lovely. What about you? Are there any things that you still have on your bucket list that you'd like to be doing right now? Michael Hingson  53:55 Well, I certainly want to do more speaking because I want to keep that going. I'd like to to travel more, but it's not nearly as fun for me, at least traveling alone. But one of these one of these years, certainly in the next two or so years, I'll probably decide to take a cruise because I love cruising. Yeah, me Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  54:15 too. Michael Hingson  54:16 And I and I can do really fine cruising. I think that's a lot of fun to Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  54:21 do. Definitely. Which which part of the world would you cruise in? Michael Hingson  54:25 You know, I'm pretty open on that. I I first of all, I've been to New Zealand. I'd love to go to Australia, but as far as cruising, I'm pretty open. I'd like to to do a cruise up and down the Mississippi River, but I'd like to to to do some cruising around Europe or other places as well. I think it'd be fun. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  54:46 Yes, I I very much agree. My family went on. I was very fortunate. We did four cruises together, my parents, sister, and I all over the Caribbean and Mexico, and then I did one in South America, and I've done one. In Greece and Turkey, and I also I took a catamaran with about a dozen strangers in Thailand for almost two weeks. Yes, well, because why not? Michael Hingson  55:12 First cruise that we took, Karen was a travel agent at the time, actually, and her family wanted to go on a cruise. We did a two week Trans Panama Canal cruise, that was a lot of fun. Loved it. Then we did a cruise to Mexico, and I think we did another cruise in the Caribbean, and then the last cruise we took was to Alaska, which was a lot of fun. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  55:42 Okay, that is wonderful. Michael Hingson  55:45 Yeah. Was there anything Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  55:45 in Alaska that surprised you? Michael Hingson  55:48 Nothing that surprised me. It was just fun to go for me and and Karen actually. Although it's fun to get off and tour, we're fine if we're just on the ship the whole time, even just because it's the it's relaxing, it's the attitude and and and having fun. But but I would like to go and and cruise some. I think we'll do that sometime in the near future. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  56:13 Well, I mean, I'm all for it. You let me know when you go. Want to go? Yeah, I'm down. Michael Hingson  56:20 Yeah, we'll have to do that. That'd be fun, but yeah, we'll kick off Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  56:24 our textbook company on the cruise. Michael Hingson  56:26 There you go. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  56:27 Multitask Michael Hingson  56:28 books afloat Inc. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  56:30 Love Michael Hingson  56:33 it, but I think there's there's so much to do that you know we'll make it work. So you um um we talked about a little bit, but you really feel that having been in a variety of cities has helped your life perspective. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  56:48 Definitely. Look, the the way that you're just talking about travel, it's the same thing. Where I've lived in four cities and have traveled to many more, and it shapes you certainly when you when you make moves, I moved a couple times for work, for example. You are often finding yourself somewhere where you're alone, and you have to build a whole new community and support system. And sometimes that can be very lonely. And as much as I love spending time with myself, or but I think overall it really proves to you that you can be resilient and you can make you know wonderful things out of situations that you you didn't know what would happen, right? So similar to you not knowing that you would live where you do now, yeah, it's a beautiful testament to what we can do as humans, what we're capable of. Michael Hingson  57:44 Life's an adventure. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  57:46 I know. I love that theory. Michael Hingson  57:48 So, for you, what's been one of your biggest learning lessons over the last year? Since I assume you still believe that you learn all the time, Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  57:57 I learn all the time. And again, I think it really is just going back to the spirituality element. Man plans, God laughs. I definitely have thought that there's a lot in my life that I had the ability to plan out. And even when I think things are going in a certain direction, the universe has this fun way of you know establishing a plot twist and seeing how I react to it. So yeah, maybe it's it's not take certain things as seriously and and kind of learn to go with the flow a little bit more. That's the biggest lesson there. Michael Hingson  58:33 Good for you. That's a that's a very important lesson. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  58:37 Yeah. So maybe it's a little bit later in life, but you know, it's never too late for these things. Michael Hingson  58:43 Never. What would be Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  58:44 one of yours? Michael Hingson  58:46 Well, I think for me, spending more time being introspective has has been a great lesson for me, and I've learned to to step back and again not plan so much, as you said. Man plans, God laughs. I don't know. I would say God laughs. God's just patient, and He says, "Go do what you're going to do, and then let me know when you're ready to get real. But you know, I I think there's a lot of truth to that. So for me, I'm just constantly learning to be a little bit more patient, Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  59:22 a good one too. Michael Hingson  59:24 So, what kind of advice would you give to an up-and-coming entrepreneur or person about living life? Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  59:32 Ah, Speaker 4  59:34 just Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  59:35 do do everything. Do everything that you want to do. Really, would be because I think that like the more that you try, the more you are learning about what you are capable of and who you are as a person. The more different types of people that you meet, the more opportunities that might come your way. And some of it you're not going to like. That's a learning lesson. And some of it. You're going to love. So, if there's, so I would say do all of that, and then the other one is, is make it happen, because nothing will come to you if you are not going after it. And I just said that we have to surrender and let things come to us, but I really believe that there has to be not a manifestation, but really just some intention to push us in a certain direction, and that that hard work is necessary in anything that's really good that comes to us in life. Anything that's good is going to take work. Michael Hingson  1:00:36 The only thing that I would add to that is when you said there are things that might might be happening. That might happen that you don't like. My only comment to that would be: step back and try to figure out why you don't like them, and see if there's really a reason. Because we we we are such a knee jerk reaction society. It's always good to analyze and go, what really is the issue here? Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  1:01:00 Yeah, you're so right. Michael Hingson  1:01:02 Well, I want to thank you for being here. This has been absolutely fun. It has now been over an hour, and it's got to be past the beginning of your dinner time. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  1:01:12 It's almost past my bedtime on a Friday night. How about there? You go. Well, Michael Hingson  1:01:17 I really appreciate you doing this and and spending the time with us, and I I've learned a lot, and I hope other people have. If people want to reach out to you, how do they do that? Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  1:01:27 Oh, please reach out on LinkedIn. It's just Stephanie Gutnick. You'll find me. Michael Hingson  1:01:33 Spell that if you would, just to play safe. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  1:01:35 Yes, absolutely. S T E P H A N I E, and the last name is Gutnick. G U T is in Tom and is in Nancy I K. Michael Hingson  1:01:45 So hunt down Stephanie on LinkedIn. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  1:01:49 Stephanie doesn't know who Tom or Nancy are, but she just thought that those would be helpful names. Well, Michael Hingson  1:01:54 there you go. Well, hey, whatever works. Yeah, Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  1:01:57 exactly. Michael Hingson  1:01:58 There you are, Michael. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  1:01:59 Thank you so much. Michael Hingson  1:02:00 It's been a pleasure. Well, I want to thank all of you for being here with us, and hope you've learned some things today, and that you've enjoyed it. Wherever you're monitoring our podcast, please give us a five star review. But even more, or rating, but more important, give us a great review. Reviews are things that people like to see when they're thinking about what podcast to listen to, so we value your reviews greatly. And if you'd like to reach out to me, it's easy. It's speaker, S P E A K E R at Michael Hinkson, M I C H A E L H I N G S O n.com. Love to hear from you. If you know anyone who ought to be a guest on the podcast, let us know. Stephanie, you as well. Always looking for more people, and so I appreciate you doing that. And with that, Stephanie, once more, thanks for being here. This has been fun. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  1:02:50 Thank you so much. I very much agree. Michael Hingson  1:02:55 Thank you for being here with me on Unstoppable Mindset. I hope today's conversation left you with a fresh perspective, a new insight, or at least something worth thinking about. If you're ready to go deeper into the ideas that shape how we see ourselves and others, I have a free gift for you. Head over to MichaelHingson.com and download my free ebook, Blinded by fear, it explores the invisible beliefs that hold us back and shows you how to reframe them so you can move forward with clarity and confidence. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review, and share this show with someone who can use a reminder that growth starts with mindset. When people think differently, we all move forward together. Thanks again for listening. Keep learning, keep questioning, and keep choosing to live with an unstoppable mindset.

What happens when the career you built changes, disappears, or no longer feels right? I talk with content marketing leader Nicole Pytel about career change, burnout prevention, imposter syndrome, entrepreneurship, professional identity, and the growing role of AI in content marketing. Nicole shares how she moved from sports journalism into business, built her own agency, learned to shut work off, and later chose employment over entrepreneurship without seeing it as a step backward. We also explore what layoffs can teach us about identity, why confidence can exist beside fear, and how AI can support human skill instead of replacing it. Her story is a strong reminder to trust what you know, keep learning, and ask yourself one powerful question: Why not you? Highlights: 21:44 - The turning point that pushed Nicole to leave television. 28:50 - Why never shutting off from work led to burnout. 39:34 - How confidence can exist alongside fear and imposter syndrome. 45:35 - What a layoff can reveal about professional identity and self-worth. 50:24 - Why AI still needs human judgment, strategy, and creativity. 1:00:24 - Why trusting your gut can make career change worth the risk. About the Guest: Nicole Pytel is a content marketing leader who's spent her career translating complicated things into stories people actually want to hear — first from a newsroom, now from the executive table. Her career started in TV news as a sports reporter, where she covered the legendary Friday night lights of high school football and spent her Saturdays on the sidelines of Texas A\&M's Kyle Field. She was eventually promoted to news anchor, and those days of turning complex topics into compelling stories still shape how she approaches content strategy today. Nicole then spent nearly a decade as the founder of Premier Content Source, a content marketing agency she grew to serve over 1,000 clients across multiple industries. She later worked as an embedded content marketing expert inside teams at Google Cloud, Chrome Enterprise, and YouTube. Most recently, Nicole served as Vice President of Content Marketing at Firebrand Communications, where she built the agency's content marketing line of business from zero and held a seat on the executive leadership team. Today, Nicole is focused on how AI is changing content marketing, building a four-chapter framework for how content teams should operate now that AI has fundamentally changed how buyers search, discover, and evaluate the companies they work with. Whether it's a thirty-second news segment or a company's entire content strategy, Nicole's guiding belief hasn't changed: if you can't make the audience care, you're just making noise. Ways to connect with Nicole**:** LinkedIn, https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolepytelmarketing/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:04 What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe? Welcome to Unstoppable Mindset, where inclusion, diversity, and the unexpected meet. I'm your host, Michael Hingston, speaker, author, and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead, and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head-on, and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear. Together, we focus on mindset, resilience, and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Well, hi again, everyone, and once again, it is time for another episode of Unstoppable Mindset. We are having a lot of fun doing these podcast recordings, and I really appreciate all of you being out there. Love to hear from you if any of you have any comments on any of the things that we talk about, or even if you don't comment anyway. We'd love to hear from you, but I really appreciate you all being here and and and interacting with us today. We get to chat with Nicole Pytel. My screen reader pronounces it Pytel, but you know we were just besmirching technology, and it deserves it because it should pronounce it right. But anyway, that's okay. But no help. Nicole has been very much involved in a lot of content marketing and in a variety of things. I think we're going to have a lot of fun chatting and talking about different business things, and who knows what else will come up in the course of the conversation. That's what makes it fun because it is truly and always is intended to be a conversation. And who the heck knows where things may go as we follow along? But we'll make it work. So Nicole, welcome to Unstoppable Mindset. We're glad you're here. Nicole Pytel  02:08 Thank you for having me. I'm thrilled to be here. I'm so excited, and yeah, I can't wait to see where the conversation goes. Michael Hingson  02:14 I can't either. It'll we'll have a lot of fun with it. Well, I love to start this way. Tell us about the early Nicole, growing up and and all that. Let's get people to have a chance to get to know you a little bit. Nicole Pytel  02:28 Yeah, well, the the early Nicole is a a Florida native. I know people are always a little baffled by that. Not everybody in this state is from a transplant from New York or Philly or Boston or any of those places. Some of us are born here. And have you made Michael Hingson  02:43 and have you made friends with all the gators? Nicole Pytel  02:46 Ah, no, no. I stay away from the gators. Antisocial, Michael Hingson  02:50 aren't Nicole Pytel  02:51 they? They're yeah, they're they're a bit unfriendly. Yeah, I've I've never seen one in the wild, and I I'd like to keep it that way. Yeah, I hear you for sure. Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, born in Miami, grew up in Fort Lauderdale. the The only daughter of two former Miami Dade police officers. So, yes, yes. My mom was actually an undercover narc in the days of the cocaine cowboys. So, she is incapable of being intimidated. And personally, I think she's amazing and also a little crazy for doing that. But yeah, grew up as an only child, had you know four-legged brothers. You know, just had a great childhood. You know, just really like as great as it could be. You know, dad worked from home, had his own business. Mom worked with dad a lot of the time and was in the PTA and running the Girl Scouts and the young astronauts and all all the things. So, you know, really great childhood and a lot of lessons that really kind of you know still stick with me today and kind of gave me that foundation to go and do all the really cool things I've done as a grown-up. A lot of lessons learned. So you know, it was a good childhood. Michael Hingson  04:06 What did your dad do, and what does he do? Nicole Pytel  04:09 He well, he was after he left the police force. He started his own business. He reconstructed traffic accidents. So he was an expert witness. His clients were personal injury attorneys in South Florida, which is probably the worst client you could have on the planet. Those are some demanding folks. He handled it really, really well. He had his own business for gosh, 30 years. So yeah, he was he was amazing. Michael Hingson  04:38 Did he ever consult for CSI Miami. Nicole Pytel  04:43 No, he did not. Just checking. Did not. The one that was the one cool thing he didn't do. No. Michael Hingson  04:48 Yeah. Well, talk about the potential for pressure, but that's okay. Sounded like he had a a good time and enjoyed what he did, and and it does sound very fascinating. It is. It is Nicole Pytel  05:02 indeed. Although you know, when you're learning to drive as a teenager and your father does that for a living, you know, you've you've seen all the terrifying accident photos and heard all the stories, and so it's a it's a little stressful learning to drive from somebody who sees the worst of the worst every single day, but you know, we made it. Michael Hingson  05:23 And did Dad work as a backseat driver for you every so often? Nicole Pytel  05:27 Oh, 100% 100% literally. I mean, till the day he died, he was the world's worst backseat driver. I, you know, I'm in my 30s, and he's like, "What are you doing? You know, so yeah, absolutely, 100% Michael Hingson  05:42 How about mom? Nicole Pytel  05:44 Oh, mom, mom is amazing, and yes, she's a backseat driver as well. Okay, I am as well. So, but you know, mom, mom is tough and and also amazing, and you know, such a a great mom to her fur kids and a good grandma to my fur kids, and you know, just just amazing the life that she's had. You know, just grew up as a State Department brat, lived all over the world, was cop, like just wild, just wild. So I I have I have some very cool parents. Michael Hingson  06:15 Do you have any kids of the two legged variety? Nicole Pytel  06:18 Not the two legged variety. I've got two of the four-legged kind. Yeah, Michael Hingson  06:22 that works. Yeah, they're they're demanding enough. Nicole Pytel  06:26 Oh, mine are little little tiny divas. Absolutely, and I'm proud of it. They were raised to be little spoiled divas. Michael Hingson  06:33 Well, I have my guide dog Alamo, and we have a cat who's now 16 and a half years old, named Stitch. She's the real demanding one, she she likes to be petted while she eats, and the only way to keep her from disturbing a podcast to get fed is to keep the door closed, which I do. But the the thing is that if if the door opened, she'd probably be in here, and she would be insisting pretty loudly if I didn't respond, that she needs me to go pet her while she eats. She loves it, and it's fine. There are just a few times that she doesn't get to do it, and mostly she's pretty quiet about it since the door's closed. But when we're done, I'll open the door, and I will hear from her pretty quickly that time for more food. Nicole Pytel  07:21 She's got you well trained. Very good. Have you well Michael Hingson  07:24 trained? Yeah. Now Alamo, Alamo, my guide dog, is a clock watcher, so he's going to get his his afternoon treat a half hour late, and and he's pretty quiet about that sort of stuff. He's pretty pretty nonplussed about it. He won't come over and bug me, even though he's here in the room during the podcast because he knows what's going on, but by the same token, as soon as we're done, he's going to be out there going, "It's after 130, Buster. Nicole Pytel  07:51 I hear you. Minnie, Minnie and Megs will be the same way. Don't you worry; it'll be time for their dinner when we're done here. So, yeah, they'll they'll be ready. Michael Hingson  08:00 Yeah, well, and Stitch also gets some treats in the evening. She gets them around 630 at night, but at five she starts demanding them, and she doesn't want to eat anything that's left over in her food bowl. She wants her treats, and she knows she's not going to get them until after 630, but she pushes anyway. Ah, it's fun. I wouldn't have it any other way, though. Nicole Pytel  08:23 No, absolutely not. They are just little rays of sunshine. Michael Hingson  08:27 They are. So you went to college, I gather. Nicole Pytel  08:30 I did. I went to the University of Miami. Both my parents did as well. Dad actually played football there back in the day. Yeah, actually, I mean, honestly, growing up, I pretty much lived at the Orange Bowl on Saturdays. We had season tickets to the Hurricanes, and you know, learned about football very, very early on. I was actually, I think I was like five, and I was sitting there on a Saturday playing with my Barbies, and Dad came in and was like, "All right, come on, put the Barbie dolls down. We're gonna go watch football. You're gonna learn about football, and I was I was hooked ever ever since. So you know, who needs copies? Michael Hingson  09:10 I got hooked more on on baseball. Of course, I still am of the opinion that for the longest time, we had the best announcers in baseball here in California. We had Vince Scully, we had Dick Enberg, and so many people. And I learned baseball from Vin Scully. I learned all about the rules and so on, because he could announce the game, and he could include stories, but never missed announcing what was going on on the field. So you you got both, and I don't think there are many announcers today who can do that. And they've got buddies, and they they kind of talk together, but they're yammering a lot and not announcing the game, which is all the more no fun. So yeah, what do you do? Nicole Pytel  09:54 Yeah, there's something special about those guys that can just do it solo for nine innings, especially with all the break. In between pitches and things like that, I mean that's it's a lot of air to fill. So yeah, I mean Vince Gully. There's there's nobody better to learn from. Michael Hingson  10:09 No, nobody better than Vinny ever ever in baseball. And and as I said, Dick Enberg was out here, and and then in basketball we had Chick Hearn who could talk faster than anybody in the world, which was pretty cool, and there were some other announcers. They weren't necessarily just announcers like Vinny. I mean, Harry Carey, who did the Cubs, and but he was well loved and had a great personality, and it was a lot of fun. But Vinny was definitely the best, and then Dick Enberg, who also did football, and I learned a lot about football from from him, which was kind of fun. But I've always been a baseball fan. Nicole Pytel  10:46 Same, I love baseball as well. There's just something so quintessentially like wholesome and American about baseball. It's just like the hot dog, and you know, there's just something about baseball where you just feel like just a pure good old fashioned American kind of thing, you know. It's just got this feeling Michael Hingson  11:08 to it. Yeah. Well, so you went and got. Did you do advanced degrees or just a bachelor's? Nicole Pytel  11:14 I did my bachelor's. Yeah. I I went into broadcasting. Actually, majored in in broadcast journalism and psychology. Ah, wow, that's a Michael Hingson  11:23 combination. Nicole Pytel  11:24 It is, you know, I the psychology part. You know, I've always been fascinated of like why people do what they do, and I wanted to be a sports journalist. You know, ever since I can remember, and I was like, well, what a great way to really understand people if you're going to interview them and talk to them all the time, and and tell them stories, you know, through the TV. Like, what a great way to understand them. Take take psychology, learn all about that. And and now that I'm in marketing, it's it's the same thing. Trying to figure out, you know, why'd they click on that ad and not this one? Why'd they open this email and not that one? Why'd they, you know, read this case study and not that one. So it's it that that major was kind of the gift that keeps on giving. Michael Hingson  12:07 Now you, so you got your bachelor's and then you went into broadcast journalism. Nicole Pytel  12:13 I did. I did. I I took off to College Station, Texas, to be a great reporter. Yeah, really no better place. I mean, you know, you start in broadcasting, and you're going to start in a small market. And there's all kinds of cities in in the country that I'm sure are lovely, but you've never heard of them before. Your God only knows what you're going to cover. But I was very, very blessed. I got to go to College Station, Texas, so that is the home of Texas A and M, and of course Friday Night Football, the local high schools. You know that the that was my job to cover that stuff. So you can't really ask for anything better than that for a first job out of school. Michael Hingson  12:55 So did you did you announce the games or what did you do? Nicole Pytel  12:58 I didn't. I was a I was a sports reporter for one of the local affiliates in town. So, and I was a one-man band. So I shot everything, edited everything, reported everything. I did, I did all the things, all the things. No photog following me around. No, no, nothing. It was all me. So I was the one, you know, on the sidelines shooting the games or standing behind home plate, and you know it was it was fun. It was it was definitely an adventure. We could probably do an entire podcast just on crazy stories about that. Well, Michael Hingson  13:29 how long ago was that? Nicole Pytel  13:30 Oh gosh, more years ago than I I'd like to think. My goodness, I went out there in 2006. So Michael Hingson  13:39 digital cameras had started to come into play. Nicole Pytel  13:44 Yeah, sort of. Although when you're working in a small market, they don't have the newest equipment, so the cameras were still big and heavy. You had this big bag of stuff to lug around. You had the big heavy tripod. You know, you're kind of going like carrying your weight in stuff. Yeah, you know, and and I'm doing it, you know, depending on where I'm going, you know, in in like dress clothes and and heels and and trying not to fall over, you know. So, but um, yeah, no, it's that was still the big and bulky stuff back then. Michael Hingson  14:14 Yeah, yeah, I'm I'm not surprised, and at the same time, you did it. What's what's the most memorable, if you have one, memorable event or thing that you can think of that you did while you were out there in Texas doing football and baseball and all that? Nicole Pytel  14:30 Oh man, there's there's so many, there's so many. But I think one of the coolest things I got to do was, you know, Kyle Field, which is Texas A\&M's home stadium. It is it is enormous. It seats you know 100,000 plus people, and you know being there on a Saturday is is unreal. It's loud. Those are probably some of the most devoted fans on the planet. They never sit down. They they. Practice all their cheers the night before. I mean, it's just wild. But you know, I used to do obviously during the season. I'd go to the weekly press conferences during the week, and I'd I'd do stories. And you know, I never. I don't know if I ever told anybody this publicly, but they used to leave a chain link gate open at Kyle Field on Tuesday afternoons. It was just unlocked, and so I would I would go in there, and the stadium would be totally empty except for me, not a soul. And I'd go in there, and I was you know shooting my own stuff. So I had it all figured out where exactly where I had to put the camera and exactly how I had the angle of the tripod and exactly where I had to stand, so that I could get there. Home of the 12th man sign like right over my shoulder, the perfect shot for you know my stand up and my story. And so every every Tuesday I'd go in there. I'd kind of sneak in. I don't know to this day if they ever knew I was in there, but but being in there, you know, on the 50-yard line of this enormous stadium, all by yourself-it's totally silent. You know what it's like at at peak velocity volume, and being in there all by yourself, you're just like, this is the coolest thing I know ever. Like this is amazing. It's wild. It's just wild. Michael Hingson  16:19 Well, I won't tell anyone. I mean, it's sort of like Vin Scully, who always said, "This is between me and you, nobody else. Nicole Pytel  16:24 Exactly, exactly. Michael Hingson  16:26 Nobody will hear it. It's okay. That's that's cool. The only thing I would say about that is, and I experience this. If you talk about crazy fans, Kentucky and football is just as challenging, I went to do a speech somewhere, and the speech was on Monday night. It was the NCAA championship in football, and the and the Kentucky Wildcats were one of the teams. And I was told that my speech had to end at 630. It could not go any later because if it went later, I'd be speaking to an empty gym. Nicole Pytel  17:04 Yes, you would absolutely no pressure, no pressure. No, no Michael Hingson  17:07 pressure at all. Well, I kept an eye on the time and and ended it right at 630, and by 631, the place was empty. It was crazy. Nicole Pytel  17:14 Cleared out, cleared out. Well, hey, that speaks well for you that they were all there before the game. They weren't tailgating or anything, you you were bigger than the tailgate. Michael Hingson  17:22 I guess so, but it was it was fun, and and then you've got North Carolina for basketball, so oh yeah, it's again it's it's pretty amazing. Well, how long did you do your your stint dealing with sports and and being in the news media? Nicole Pytel  17:41 Yeah, so I was a sports reporter for two years, and then my contract was up in the summer of 2008 when the the economy was not so great. Yeah, and I I didn't want to stay in my job not because I didn't love it. I just wasn't really making any money. You don't make any money in TV. That's the big secret. It looks so glamorous, and and you're broke. But it was so it was basically impossible to get another sports job at at that time, you know. And I got a really good opportunity at the station I was at. They were like, you know what? Like everybody in town knows you. They see you on the sidelines. They see you behind home plate. Like they see you at all the things. And so why don't you be the main news anchor? Because they were rebranding the station, and I said, you know what? Okay, cool. I'll do that. You know that that'll be something new and different. And you know it kind of hurt to leave sports, but it was a challenge. You know to be the main anchor and the producer. So it was it was my show to run. So I did that for two years as well. No pressure, no pressure at all. No, it's fine. Michael Hingson  18:51 Yeah, Nicole Pytel  18:51 pressure. Michael Hingson  18:53 So you did that for two years, and then, Nicole Pytel  18:56 and then I left, and I totally did something different. I left TV and I started my own content marketing agency. Just me, myself, and I, and my little my little built-in desk in my kitchen in my apartment. So couldn't be more different. Michael Hingson  19:12 Did you do now? Was that in Texas? It Nicole Pytel  19:15 was in Texas. It was you know it was it was you know time to leave TV, and it was just like, okay, well, what am I good at? Like, what can I do? And I said, well, shoot, I can write anything, you know. So I'll do content marketing, and and there's so many journalists that go into PR. That's kind of like the the thing they all do. And I was like, I don't want to do that. Like, I don't know. It's just like being on the journalism side, you know, all the PR people. It's like, oh, come on, guys, stop! So I went into content marketing, started my own agency, just just me, myself, and I. And you know, was it was scary, but it was fun. It was you know throwing yourself into the deep end of the pool and and seeing if you could swim. If Speaker 1  20:02 you enjoy Unstoppable Mindset and would like to help us continue bringing these conversations to you each week, we've created a way for you to support the show. Your contribution helps us cover production costs and continue sharing stories, insights, and ideas that inspire people to live with purpose and possibility. If supporting the podcast feels right for you, you'll find the link in the show notes. Thank you for being part of the Unstoppable Mindset Community. Michael Hingson  20:35 So now, tell me something about what content marketing Nicole Pytel  20:40 is. Yeah, so you know content marketing, and and I I've always been on on the B 2b side, the business to business. So and usually, and most of my career has been in in tech. So you know, selling very expensive things to people who are very skeptical of whether or not it works and don't want to make the wrong decision on you know a six figure platform or something like that, and it's really the content marketer's job to really kind of give them almost like a buffet of things that that they need to really figure out. Okay, what problem do I have? What solutions are there for this problem? Like, who are the different vendors? What what are the different ways to solve this problem? What makes all these vendors different? How do I know which vendor you know will actually give me ROI? Like, do they understand my business? Do they understand people like me, and then you know, getting them all the way through until they're ready for a sales conversation. And as you might imagine, people don't like to talk to salespeople. They're you know at this point probably probably 80% of the way through. You know they they probably are pretty set on on which vendor they're going to go with before they talk to sales, but you know there's all kinds of different marketing. But content's the one that really runs the whole gamut of everything. You know, you everything ties back to content because you've got to bring them to something. Like you know, ads have got to drive to something. The website's got to say something. You know, like PR has got to plug something. So, you know, content's kind of that that through line for the entire process of them making these, you know, huge expensive decisions. Michael Hingson  22:33 Well, still going into content marketing, since you were in TV, is a pretty major, pretty major switch all the way around. And what makes me curious is how did you discover you really knew and understood content marketing? And more important, even than I guess, would be since you loved TV so much, when did you decide that it was worth staying in TV than it was to switch careers? That had to be a pretty scary thing, or maybe it wasn't. You may be just used to doing that sort of thing. Nicole Pytel  23:05 Yeah, no. Leaving TV, there was a there was a day, you know, when I knew I was done with TV, and and I was kind of frustrated with it. You know, you're not making much money, and and at that time it was so tough. The economy was was still tough, even even a couple years after that, and and it was just was tough. And news is a totally different kettle of fish than sports. Sports is is fun, and the fun stories and the feature stories and news is just it can be depressing. It can you know, it like you know. If it bleeds, it leads. That's you know where we're at, and that just started to get to me. And there, there was one day where things were just really, really slow, and and I was just like, oh my god, we don't have a lead story, and time is a ticking, and 10 o'clock is coming, whether I'm ready or not, and it's not like you can get on TV and go. Well, hey, good evening. Nothing happened today. Shut off your TV and go to sleep. And that's a story. That's a story in and of itself. Nothing happened, and I was really struggling. Like, oh my God, what's the lead story? What's the lead story? Am I going to have to take something and just kind of you know make make chicken salad out of chicken you know what and try to pass this off as important, and then we heard over the scanner there had been this this fatal car accident and this teenage girl had died in a car accident you know and for a split second I thought, "Oh, thank God, I have a lead story. And then, in the next second, I went, "Oh my God! Like, how is that your reaction to this story? Like, this girl is gone; her family is destroyed forever. Like, how did your brain even get to oh my god?" Thank God, I have a lead story, and and it was then that I was like, I don't want to do this anymore. You know, I was one foot out the door, and then I was like, uh, I don't like this. And to this day, I don't remember the girl's name. I don't remember any of the details, but I still think about it because it was really this turning point of like, I just don't want to do this anymore. Like I want to go do something else. That you know, maybe if I had stayed in sports, it would have been totally different. But the news side is just-it's tough. It's tough to see all that bad stuff day after day after day and kind of capitalize on it. Yeah, Michael Hingson  25:34 I-I'm amazed at some of the reporters that that I watch and and just listen to how they report the news, and now there's always it seems in our country a lead story of some sort. But how they do it and how they're able to do it day after day without registering too much emotion is pretty amazing. And I and I hope that their characters just don't become so hardened that they don't feel sympathy, and I and I think they don't. The reporters that I tend to watch, I think, are very human oriented, but and and they they behave appropriately, but at the same time, I'm amazed that they're able to do what they do, and it's got to be so tough. Nicole Pytel  26:24 It is tough. It is tough because sadly, you're kind of seeing the worst of the worst. I mean, you know, that's that's the stuff that that makes the news. And and today, you know, I don't watch local news really at all anymore. But it seems like now it's just kind of the police blotter, and it's like when I hear about all these bad things, you know. It's just, you know, the the storytelling has has kind of fallen out of it quite a bit. Michael Hingson  26:49 I collect old radio shows as a hobby, and I'm very fascinated to listen to the all the old news broadcasts from the 20s, well, the 30s, 40s, and into the 50s mainly. And I've heard some interviews with people who did news back in those days, and and who are somewhat still well, they're still alive or they used to be, and they talk about how news broadcasting has changed over the years, and they don't they don't do the same kind of news that they they used to do where they would report on things. Now they've got different people sort of chattering back and forth, and and they're they sometimes make light of stories and they just do a lot of different things, but they're not reporting the news the way the old reporters used to do. Nicole Pytel  27:36 Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, back in the day, you had you know Walter Cronkite kind of ripping the paper off, you know, or you know they're sitting there smoking a cigarette, giving the news. I mean, you know, stuff like that, and you know, yeah, it's just it's totally different. I think it's become so sensationalized, and everybody's obsessed with being first. I think, I mean, you always want to be first, but I I think people are obsessed with being first, even if they don't always get it right. Yeah, and that's Michael Hingson  28:08 happened a lot. It Nicole Pytel  28:09 happens a lot, and and also it's like who can be the most sensational, who can make the biggest splash, and you know it just I don't know. It's it has it's changed so much. Yeah. Michael Hingson  28:25 Well, so now, but but again, well, not now. But then you went into contact mark content marketing. Do you feel that you knew that business as you were going into it, or or did you have a lot to learn? And how did you do it? Because for a while, it was just you doing everything? Nicole Pytel  28:41 Yeah, it was it was me doing literally everything. And did I know about content marketing? No, I didn't. I knew how to write, so I knew I could do copywriting. And I said, okay, well, I'll I'll figure out the marketing part. And it took a lot of courses. I learned about SEO. I learned about email marketing. I learned about inbound marketing. You know, I just took every course that I could and kind of just built the plane as I flew it. And you know, because yeah, when you start your own business and you're all by yourself, there's no there's no senior person to go ask. You're the person, and you've got to figure it out, and you know, I like to say the money train doesn't doesn't just magically show up every two weeks. You know, you've got to you've got to work and you've got to earn it. And so, when you've got your own business, you know, that's just it's a lot of pressure. And so, yeah, I just I just went and and learned as I went and learned a lot quickly. And you know, would would I tell everybody to go do that? No, but for me it was like, well, if I can do that, I can I can probably do anything. I mean, shoot, I kept a a roof over my head and food food on the table for for eight years with my. Business, so that's that's something that a lot of people can't say. Michael Hingson  30:03 Did you make any kind of mistake at the beginning, or as you were starting and running this business, that you're very grateful today that you made? Nicole Pytel  30:11 Oh, I I made plenty of mistakes. Oh my goodness! And of course, you're going to make mistakes. You're you're just learning. You're just drinking from the fire hose and just hanging onto the bowl, you know, and I think there was a there was a couple of mistakes I made. I think probably the biggest was not shutting off, you know. And I had come from news where at 10 o'clock the news started, at 1030 the show was over. You were done for the day. Nothing carried over to the next day. You came into work the next day. You started over, and it was really hard to have work that dragged on for days or weeks at a time. And you know, it was hard to shut off, especially when it's your own business. It's like, oh, let me just reply to this one email, or let me check this one thing, or let me go do this one thing over here. And and when I started my own business, you know, I was working, I was working out of the kitchen. So you know, you go to sit down and relax on the couch at night, and and your computer's you know four feet away in the kitchen. So oh, I'll I'll just go check this one thing, and I never was shutting off, and you burn out that way. You really, you really do. And I'm glad I learned that lesson. And I'm not saying I've never repeated that lesson because I've definitely, you know, it's it's a very acquired skill to be able to just turn your brain off and and go focus on something else. But I'm glad I made that mistake because it really showed me, like, you don't have to be on 24/7 even to run your own business, you know, like, and you have to stop. And so, what I've done ever since then, ever since I was able to afford, you know, a two-bedroom apartment or whatever, even my house now. I've always had an office so that you know I go, I do my work, and then at the end of the day, I shut off the computer and I leave that room, and I don't come back until the next day. Where it's like you know, like if you go to a traditional office, you get up at 5o'clock, you walk out, you're back at 9o'clock the next morning, like I've worked really hard to do that at home to really avoid that whole always on kind of mentality because you've just got to kind of stop, you know. Michael Hingson  32:34 Yeah, I my wife passed away in November of 2022, and she was more of a late riser, and I was more of a morning person, but we compromise pretty well. But since she has passed, I tend to get up pretty early because I can eat breakfast and then come in and spend time before anything else happens, going through emails and doing some things. But I don't have to rush doing it, and that helps. But then, then then the the other things happen in the course of the day. But I I know what you're saying, and I work pretty hard at shutting things down by around 5o'clock. Of course, I also have to do that because I have two creatures who say it's five here, not somewhere else, and we better get our food. Yeah. Yep. So they help, but I hear what you're saying, and it and it is a it is a discipline. Working at home and working for yourself is a is a discipline that a lot of people Nicole Pytel  33:33 oh yeah Michael Hingson  33:34 could learn and don't or just don't have the skills to do. But it is, I think, a very doable thing, and I enjoy it. And I usually have I usually have television as well. I have television or something on in the background, although I don't listen to much of it. It's just background noise, but it's there and it helps. Nicole Pytel  33:53 Yeah, yeah. There's something about silence. I've always got to have you know some music on or something. It's like the silence gets a little deafening when you're at home working, it's it's it's funny that way. Michael Hingson  34:03 I do some stuff on the weekends, and when I when I do catching up on letters and things like that on the weekends, I typically don't turn anything on. I just focus and get it done, and then I go off and read and do other things. So it works out. But I but I hear what you're saying, and I think it's an important lesson to learn that you've got to learn. You've got to find a way to recognize that that it is important to turn off. And if you don't, you're going to drive yourself crazy. Nicole Pytel  34:30 You will. And and you know now that we've got you know email on our phones and Slack on our phones and LinkedIn on our phones, it's really easy to sit on the couch at night after dinner and just let me check my email this one more time, or or let me reply to this Slack message, and you just gotta stop because you will burn out, and and then you know you're you're of no use to anybody, most of all yourself, you know. And I think that Michael Hingson  34:57 oh, go ahead. Nicole Pytel  34:58 I was just gonna say I think it. I think it's a lesson that a lot of people struggle with, you know, because everything is just this on-demand one tap of your phone. You can just be back at work 24 hours a day, and I think you have to learn that I don't have to be on 24-seven to be successful. Think that's the thing you've got to learn. Michael Hingson  35:20 Do you think you've experienced burnout along the way? Nicole Pytel  35:23 Oh yeah, absolutely, absolutely. You know, I, I, you know, one of my bad habits is, you know, I'll kind of like put myself last, and I've learned that, you know, oh, it's really easy to, you know, oh, I won't go for a run this morning because I've got you know this work thing that I've got to do, and you know you've got to kind of treat yourself as a non-negotiable as well. You know, not that you get to do the run every morning. There's some mornings when you really can't, but if you look at the run as you know something of that's you taking care of yourself, and something that that is pretty non-negotiable, and it needs to be part of the schedule. You're you're more likely to to stick with it and not push it off to the side. Because yeah, I'm guilty of that. You know, you you push things off to the side. You're eating at your desk. You're passing up on this, or oh, I'm not going to go out to dinner tonight because I'm going to sit here and catch up on stuff, and and you burn out, you know, and it's exhausting. Michael Hingson  36:28 Yeah, yeah, you gotta gotta learn to keep things in perspective, and you're right. Yeah, yourself is is an important part of of what you do, and you have to be able to take care of yourself along the way as well, Speaker 1  36:42 yeah. Michael Hingson  36:42 Well, you had your own company for almost 10 years, and then you decided to go back to work for someone else. What what caused that to happen? Nicole Pytel  36:50 Yeah, so it was a couple of things. You know, one was you know when you own your own business, and and Michael, you understand this. You're you're the everything. You're you're the you're the president. You're the head of marketing. You're the head of sales. You're the head of operations. You're doing the taxes. You're you're doing all the things, and you're not necessarily good at all the things, and you don't necessarily enjoy all the things. You know, and so there was kind of two reasons. So I wanted to really focus on what I was good at, which was the content marketing part. You know, I didn't want to have to fill out quarterly reports for the state or you know things like that. All the admin work that goes in into running your own business, and so I said, okay, I want to be able to do what I do best, and I want to be able to work with clients that are bigger than I can get myself. And so I was really, really lucky to land at an agency. I worked remotely, but the agency was was based in Silicon Valley, and you know our our biggest client was Google, and you know for clients it doesn't get any bigger than that so you know I got to just focus on the content marketing part and work with with companies and and people that I never would have been exposed to if I had stuck with my own business you know no matter what I was never going to break into Silicon Valley from from my apartment in Florida, so you know it was the right decision. It really was, and and in job interviews, people asked me, "Well, you're giving up being your own boss? And it's like I've got very specific reasons for doing that. It was just time, you know. Michael Hingson  38:35 Do you feel like in any way it was a step backwards going to work for somebody rather than being the boss? Nicole Pytel  38:42 No, I don't think so. You know, because I've that eight years that I had in my own business, I got I I've got that under my belt, and you know, no one can take that experience away. You know, it is it is what it is. I learned a lot of lessons. I learned a lot of lessons the hard way too, and it was a great springboard. But I like being able to focus on what I'm best at, and you know the stuff that I've been able to do since then. I wouldn't have had those opportunities if I had just kind of kept with my own business. So I didn't see it as a step back at all because I had very specific reasons for making the move. Michael Hingson  39:20 Yeah, and you know I respect that, and and went through the same sort of thing. I owned my own company for four years back in the mid 1980s because I wasn't able to find a job at the time. People just wouldn't hire blind people, so I started my own company, and then eventually decided to go back into the workforce. And my wife and I worked out a a plan for that, and I created a cover letter that actually impressed some people, and I got a job out of it. But by the same token, I wasn't at all regretful about having to stop doing what I was doing and go back to work for someone else, partly because some of those very pressures that. We're talking about went away, and partly because, as you said, it was time, and I knew it, so we did. Nicole Pytel  40:07 Yeah, yeah. You've got to you've got to go with your gut and stuff like that. You know, like if if your gut is telling you something, or if you're like, I think I'd be a little bit happier doing something else, or if I didn't have to do this part of it, you know, go for Michael Hingson  40:24 it. Well, so there were times that, as you describe it, you would go into a role with no map. You were the only and the first content marketing hire, and you did a lot of stuff with Google Cloud marketing and and so on. What's the difference? I guess the best way to put it. What's the difference between, well, yeah, what's the difference between confidence and just hiding fear? That's probably the good basic question. Nicole Pytel  40:51 Yeah, yeah, they're probably kind of on the same plane, but they project Michael Hingson  41:00 differently. Nicole Pytel  41:01 They project very differently. They they project very differently. So so yes, you know, I created my own business, and then two of the agencies I've worked at, I was the first you know full time content hire. Built the content marketing practice. It was like building a business within a business, and and all the things that go along with that, I just didn't have to do the taxes, and which is a good thing. Yeah, it's a great thing. And then at the same time, yeah, I was I was embedded with with Google Cloud's marketing organization, and and so I think confidence is you know you can do it. Like deep down, you're like I know my stuff, I can do the work, I can do this, and then of course there's the fear of, oh my god! Like Google, like I'm gonna have a Google email address. I'm gonna have you know a title at Google and a supervisor at Google. Like, oh my god! Like, and then of course you know the the fear comes in. The imposter syndrome kind of comes in. Like me, me, really? And I think it's kind of like jumping into a really cold pool. You're scared, but you just gotta do it and kind of not fake it till you make it, but just dive in and trust in the confidence side. You know, there's like it's like the devil and the angel on your shoulder. One is your confidence. That's the angel, and the devil is the fear. And just listen to that confident part, and eventually, I feel like the fear gets drowned out. Now, does the imposter system ever imposter syndrome ever totally go away? Of course not. Of course not. We all have days where you're like, why am I here? Why is anybody listening to me? Why does anybody think I'm smart? We all have those days, but you know, eventually, you know, if you've got that confidence in yourself, it will win out. Michael Hingson  42:52 Yeah, and and it is something that we all have to deal with. But I think we can. I think if we truly understand ourselves and we listen to our inner voice. We'll get the guidance and the confidence that we need. I think so many people tend not to be introspective and tend not to go back and listen to the lessons that they could learn from their own inner subconscious, their own inner voice. And the result of that is that they they end up being very clueless, but the fact of the matter is, there's a part of you that monitors every single solitary thing that you do, and it's ready to give you the information that you need if you'll but take the time to learn to listen to it. And most people just don't do that. But the fact is, we should take that time because we'll get better results than we would ever get any other way. Nicole Pytel  43:45 It's funny because we'll say things to ourselves that we would never say to somebody else. Like you'd never say it to a friend, but you say it to yourself. It's like, why do we do that? And you know, sometimes I think one of the most important questions I've ever asked myself is why not you? You know, you want to go be a sports journalist in Texas? Why not you? Why can't you do that? You want to own your own business? Why not you? People do that all the time. Why? Why can't you do it? And I think if you if you're really honest with yourself, and you say, "Well, why not you? And you force yourself to kind of have this conversation with yourself and give an answer. A lot of times, you can't think of Michael Hingson  44:33 one, and you create excuses. Nicole Pytel  44:37 You do, which Michael Hingson  44:38 really are are not helping, and they're not healthy, but you do it anyway. And I understand the concept of imposter syndrome, but you ultimately have control over that. Nicole Pytel  44:50 You do, and I think that's the thing. It's you know I think anxiety gets the best of us a lot of the time, and and you've got to be like, okay, well, what can I control? What is totally out of my control? I actually heard somebody say today, you know, when anxiety creeps in and you have a thought, "Oh my God, what if X Y Z happens? You say to yourself, "So what if it does? Like, so what? Like, can you control it? Can you fix it? And if not, then then you shouldn't just give it airtime in your brain, you know. We Michael Hingson  45:23 spend so much time worrying about everything over which we don't have control, and we don't really learn the about the things over which we truly have control and should focus our time on, which is which is such an issue because the reality is over 95% of the things that we worry about and what if about all the time are things over which we have no control. I hear a lot of people say I don't watch the news because I just get angry at all that. Well, I like to watch the news because I love information, but I can do that generally without getting angry. Now, sometimes I will, I will yell at somebody on the the TV because they say dumb things. There are people who have learned how to do that, but I also don't spend a lot of time at it, and I also know that I'm not going to hurt them, even if they hear me. So the Michael Hingson  46:16 the bottom line is that I I work at not doing that, but I still want to get the information as to what's going on, so I do. Nicole Pytel  46:24 Yeah, and that's you. I want to know, and what can I control my reaction to it? I'm not going to get angry unless somebody says something really, really stupid, and and then you know it comes out. But yeah, it's it. That's a great example. I want to know what's happening, and I'm going to control my reaction to it, and a lot of times that's all we can control is our reaction to things. Michael Hingson  46:45 But we don't, which is really and we don't. We don't, and we should. Nicole Pytel  46:49 Yep. Michael Hingson  46:50 Well, speaking of reactions, earlier this year you got laid off from your VP role. I'm I'm curious, what did that do to how you see your own professional identity and and and so on, or did you know it was coming, or anything like that? Nicole Pytel  47:05 There, there were some rumblings right before it happened that it was coming, and you know I'm one of sadly very very many people, you know, 1000s, 10s of 1000s, maybe even hundreds of 1000s of people in this position, and and it's it's tough because you're not your job, but when you do something 40 hours a week and and you get up every day and that's what you do, it becomes part of who you are. It's like that's what I do, and then when that's gone, it's just like, well, now like am I still am I still useful? Like, am I still smart? You know, and and all these things go go through your mind, and you learn a lot about yourself when that happens. You know, talking about hey, all I can control is how I react to it. You know, Lord knows. You know, when you get laid off, like there's a a million what ifs running through your brain, and and all you can do is just keep putting one foot in front of the other, and and controlling how you react to it. But it absolutely, you know, it definitely shakes your confidence, and you know, it's it's it's a very weird feeling, you know that first Monday when you don't go to work. It's like, oh my God, the rest of the world went back to work, and and I didn't, and it's very jarring. You know, especially when you're when you're as old a fossil as me and you've been working for so long, it's like now you're not. You know, I've been I've been very very lucky to take on you know some freelance work and stuff like that, and and you know it's given me an opportunity to really catch up on a lot of the things that I wanted to learn and try and do when I was working full time and didn't really have the time. So from that perspective, it's been really good. But it it it'll knock you down for a minute, and it's up to you to kind of pick yourself back up, and that's where you kind of learn a lot about yourself as to how how you react to that. Michael Hingson  49:08 Yeah, and you have to again. It's a matter of choice, and you have to decide what what you want to do. Well, so you got laid off. Did you sleep late that first Monday? Nicole Pytel  49:19 I didn't. You know what I did. You know what I did. I I knew I had to give myself something to do, so I got up early on that first Monday and I went and got the oil changed in my car. I was like, I'm gonna go out and be productive. You know, could I have laid in bed all day and just kind of wallowed in self. Yeah, that doesn't help. Yeah, but that's not helpful. So I was like, "I'm going to go get that oil change I've been putting off for like two months. And you got to go Michael Hingson  49:49 in earlier than you otherwise would have, and probably got it done sooner. Nicole Pytel  49:53 There you go. There you go. Sometimes it just works out. Michael Hingson  49:57 And you probably had two little fur creatures who. We're very glad to see you continuing to support their habits. Nicole Pytel  50:04 Yes, yes, they my little fur divas. Yes, they're kind of like you know now you know Minnie Minnie's worked with me her whole life. She just turned 14. I've had her since she was 11 months old, and and I've I've worked at home her whole life, and so she she comes to the office with me every single day with her little memory foam, and and and and she gets her decompression time too. You know, she knows at 5o'clock when I take her memory foam bed back into the bedroom. Like, all right, I'm done working for the day. I'm good. But you know, at first she was like, "Why aren't we working, mom? And then you know, we got some freelance work and got back in the office, and I could tell she was like, "Okay, we're getting back to normal. Because at first they were both like, "What are we doing? Aren't you supposed to be working? Like, what's happening? But as long as they've got all their treats and all their toys and and and you know all their things, they're good. Michael Hingson  50:58 Didn't you tell them that was time for them to go get a job? Nicole Pytel  51:01 Oh yeah, absolutely. Michael Hingson  51:03 And how'd that work for you? Absolutely. Nicole Pytel  51:04 No, it didn't work out. They were like, "We don't do that. Like, I don't think you understand, Mom. Yeah, this is not how this works. Yeah, Michael Hingson  51:11 yeah. Well, so one of the things I think that's interesting, we're and we're all facing it to one degree or another, is the whole concept of of AI, a lot of people are afraid that AI is coming for their jobs, and I can make some comments, and I will about that. But you've chosen to face that fear and confront it. So I guess the real question is, why do you think that was the right call, and what do you think about this whole business of AI? Nicole Pytel  51:39 AI is really something, and so so I I've seen both sides of it. As a content marketer, you know we were supposed to become extinct because AI could just write everything. And my point is, is like, can AI create content? Sure, but it doesn't know what to create, and that's where the human comes in. It like the human has to come up with the strategy, and you know I remember the first time trying out ChatGPT and having it write stuff, and it wasn't very good, and and you know obviously things have gotten much much better in in the past 334 years, but you know it just became obvious that that this is a thing, and I guess you know, as a benefit, so many of of my clients were AI companies in some way, shape, or form, and it's like this is happening, and you have got to learn how to deal with it. And at least in my job, it can it can make me better at my job because it can speed things up. It can kind of eliminate some redundancies, you know. And is it ever going to replace me? No, because I'm the human with the judgment, and I understand, you know, the business goals of of what we're trying to do and how we hit the revenue goals and who the audience is and what they care about and all of those things, but I think one of the the silver linings of of getting laid off was you know I've I've had a you know a chunk of time to really dive in and get my hands dirty with AI like the things that I was like, oh, if I could have it do this, this, and this, that'd be really cool. And then go in and build it and see, hey, can I actually build this and go into Claude Code and see if if I really can do that, you know? And and it's given me a chance to really do that and go, okay, well, when I when I get another job, this is how I'm going to use AI on day one. I'm going to create, you know, this list of things, and here's why. Here's the order I'm going to do them in, and here's where I'm going to use AI to make it better. But more importantly, here's kind of the framework for how humans and AI should work together in content marketing, because there's so many people out there that are like, "Hey, ChatGPT, go write my website for me, and then they wonder why it's not very good or or why it sounds the same as as their competitors. You know, there's studies out there that say you know buyers think that these companies all sound the same, and you know AI is a big reason for that. So if you can really figure out how humans and AI work together, I think that's that's the piece, you know. And and there at the beginning there were a lot of content marketing kind of purists out there that were like, I will never use this. I'm gonna write everything myself. I'm gonna do everything from scratch, and I was just like, "That's like saying, you know, when cars came out, like I'm not, I'm not riding a horse. I'm not getting a car. I'm taking my horse and buggy to work. You know, I mean, it's the same thing. Like things evolve, and and you know, take advantage of it. Michael Hingson  54:56 Well, the reality is that AI is here. And I think you're right. What we need to do is to learn how to use it. I heard a friend comment a couple months ago that was talking to his boss about AI, and his boss said, "I will never fire you and replace you with AI. I won't do that, he said. "I might fire you if you don't learn how to use AI. Nicole Pytel  55:26 Yes, and Michael Hingson  55:26 I think that's absolutely true. I I use AI when I write because it gives me ideas, but ultimately I have to still be the one to create them, and I am not convinced that we're going to see AI in anywhere in the near future, develop the true human spirit and learn how to do the things that we do, Nicole Pytel  55:48 right? Michael Hingson  55:50 And so I think it's important that we learn how to use AI, and we I get a lot of great ideas from it, and so I go into what I write, and that's great because it's got a lot more information and experience than I do. So I don't mind doing that, and I'll be glad to take the ideas. The first time I heard anybody talking about AI was in a Christmas party with relatives, and somebody was complaining because teachers were grousing about the fact that kids were just letting AI write their papers, Nicole Pytel  56:22 yeah. Michael Hingson  56:22 And I said, why not let AI write the papers? You're missing a golden opportunity, and the golden opportunity. And I've said this before on Unstoppable Mindset, but the golden opportunity is the teacher should let students, if they want to use AI to write their papers, let them use AI to write their papers. But then, after you collect the papers, take a period, call each student to the front of the class, and say, "Now defend your position. You're going to find out who really knows what they're talking about and who doesn't. Nicole Pytel  56:50 Yep. Michael Hingson  56:51 What a great opportunity! Nicole Pytel  56:53 That's one way to do it for sure. And my guess is most of them would have no idea. Yeah. Michael Hingson  57:00 How was your view of a special of a professional career change since you started years ago, or has it? Nicole Pytel  57:08 Yeah, many, many, many moons ago. Many Michael Hingson  57:11 moons. Nicole Pytel  57:12 You know, I think when when you first start out in your career, and tell me, Michael, if you agree with this, you know, you just want to get going. It's like I'm a grown up now. I get to do all these grown up things and all the things that I learned about in school. I'm gonna run off and do them, and I want to do as much as I can, as fast as I can, and and climb the ladder and do all the things. And then, you know, that's still important, obviously. But I think it's more about, you know, am I doing something that I take? I truly, truly take pride in something that I believe in. You know, like you know, I could never go work for a company and and do marketing if if I thought the product was boring. You know, I just couldn't. I I don't really care what title you give me, or you know how much money you want to pay me. It's like if it's going to be boring, I don't, I don't want to do it. So I think part of it is, you know, are are you getting satisfaction out of what you're doing? Michael Hingson  58:13 Also, we need to recognize and understand that sometimes life gets in the way, and you start out with a great plan. This is what I'm going to do, and something happens to change it. And the reality is, again, it's of course how you approach that change. But that change might very well be for the best. I know that's happened to me several times, and I have learned that life may happen, things may happen, but I'm gonna not. I don't. I didn't have control over the change necessarily happening. So it's a question more about how I decide to deal with it and what I'm going to do. And I think that's what's really so important to be able to do. And so I find that it's so important to let life do what life is going to do, and you evaluate which way you want to go, but truly evaluate it. Don't don't just react. Sit back and think. You may decide to keep on doing what you're doing, and you're given another opportunity. And of course, for me, the most dramatic example of that is after September 11th, people started calling and saying, "Gee, would you come and talk to us and tell us what we ought to know about September 11th and talk to us about leadership and so on. We saw your name in the media and we want to hear from you and we'll pay you. And of course, you'll pay me. That was a great start. But but what happened was that so many of those happened that my wife and I at the by the beginning of 2002 realized that this was an incredible opportunity. It would take work, but it was an incredible opportunity, and that in reality, as I tell people, selling life and philosophy is a whole lot more rewarding than being a computer hardware sales manager and selling computer hardware. And so I've been doing it ever since, and I've had so many wonderful advances. And I've I've met so many people, learned so many things, and I spend the time working on learning wherever I go and wherever I speak, and so I can't complain at all about what what caused my life to change. Nicole Pytel  1:00:15 Yeah, I mean everything happens for a reason. I really do believe that, and and you may not know what that reason is right away, but yeah, I mean, look at you. I I I can't even imagine having been there on September 11th. It was it was jaw dropping enough to to watch it on TV, and and I'm sure there was a lot that went through your mind and and went through your mind during and right after. And but now look at I mean all the people that that you've gotten to inspire and and educate and motivate and and people who have really learned something and you never would have had that platform. It's it's it's really something. Michael Hingson  1:00:56 Yeah, and and it's and and if you're given a choice between two things that both really sound great, you make a choice, and then you live with the choice you made. Again, don't don't what if the things over which you don't have control, Nicole Pytel  1:01:13 right? Exactly. Michael Hingson  1:01:15 Well, if someone is in a position today where they're listening and they're standing kind of in the same place you were when you decided to go leave television, so on, and they're certain that they should be going off and doing something different, but they're terrified to admit it. What would you say is the one thing that you should tell them? Nicole Pytel  1:01:36 I would say if your gut is telling you to do something, you need to listen to it, and I would say, ask yourself why not me? Why can't I go do this now? If you want to run off and be an astronaut and go to Mars and do something that's that's totally unrealistic, okay, no, don't don't go do that. But you know, assuming it's feasible, go do it. Go try it. What What's the worst that can happen? It doesn't work, and you go do something else. That's the worst that can happen. But if you don't do it, you're always going to wonder: Could I have made that work? Could I have done something really cool? And I think that would be so much worse than trying and failing is the looking back, the what if looking back. What if I had done that? How? What would life be like right now? And and I'd rather try and fail than than live with the regret of of never having tried. Michael Hingson  1:02:35 Well, and I you know and I try to tell people I reject the concept of failure. We don't fail. It didn't go the way you plan, but then that gets back to look at it in the evening before you go to bed. What what didn't work? Why didn't it work? What could I have done differently? And use it as a teaching moment. I think we're truly our own best teachers. We we we tend to think of ourselves as our own worst critics, and I did that for many years. And I finally realized when someone once said, "You know, no one can teach you anything. You can only teach yourself. That I'm looking at it all wrong, and I now say I'm my own best teacher, which is so much more positive. And the reality is, you can always learn from things that happen. So it's not a failure. It may not go the way you plan, but why didn't it? What could you have done differently? How do you deal with it in the future, and I think that's so important. Nicole Pytel  1:03:23 Yeah, totally agree. I think of it as like a little plot twist. You know, it's just up that didn't work. Let's just pivot and go to the next thing. Michael Hingson  1:03:32 Yeah, and and figure out. And it may very well be that in a couple of years it will work. As far as being an astronaut and going to Mars, go meet a Martian. Then you'll get there. Nothing wrong with that. Nicole Pytel  1:03:43 There you go. Michael Hingson  1:03:44 I'm sure they're out there somewhere. Nicole Pytel  1:03:46 They're out there somewhere. I'm sure. Michael Hingson  1:03:48 Well, I want to thank you for being here. If people want to reach out to you and learn more, or you know, get a chance to to learn from you and so on, how do they do that? Nicole Pytel  1:03:58 Yeah, connect with me on LinkedIn. Just look for Nicole Pytel. It's P Y T E L. Happy to connect. Happy to chat. Always, always looking forward to meeting new people. And hey, if you want to geek out on marketing or AI, all all the better. Michael Hingson  1:04:13 Have you written any books? Nicole Pytel  1:04:16 Not yet. Well, maybe one day. I never say never, right? But Michael Hingson  1:04:20 I've seen so many ads over the past few weeks that say, "Just let AI write your book for you. Yeah, right. Oh, Nicole Pytel  1:04:26 have you have you seen the books where they they accidentally leave the ChatGPT prompt in there and it makes it into the Speaker 1  1:04:32 book? Nicole Pytel  1:04:33 Oh, it's so cringe. Yeah, Michael Hingson  1:04:37 that's lovely. Oh well, what do we do? Yeah, no, I haven't. I haven't. I haven't even tried. When I get those, I delete them. There's just not worth reading. Nicole Pytel  1:04:46 Yeah. Well, Michael Hingson  1:04:47 I want to thank you for spending all this time with us. This has been fun, and you've got creatures that are demanding your attention, and I've got one over here who wants his treat, and he's being very patient. So I want to thank you for being here, and I'm. To thank all of you who are out there observing us today, wherever you're monitoring our podcast, thanks for doing it. Love to hear from you. I'd appreciate if you'd email me. It's real easy. You can email me at [email protected]. That's s p e a k e r at m i c h a e l h i n g s o n.com. And of course, please give us a great review wherever you're listening. Nicole would appreciate it. I would appreciate it. But we would love to hear from you, and and we we love all the stories that people like Nicole get to come and tell us. So really, thank you for your time being here with us. And Nicole, especially you, thanks for being here. This has been fun. Nicole Pytel  1:05:40 Yeah, thanks for having me. It was a blast. Michael Hingson  1:05:46 Thank you for being here with me on Unstoppable Mindset. I hope today's conversation left you with a fresh perspective, a new insight, or at least something worth thinking about. If you're ready to go deeper into the ideas that shape how we see ourselves and others. I have a free gift for you. Head over to michaelhingson.com and download my free ebook, Blinded by Fear. It explores the invisible beliefs that hold us back and shows you how to reframe them so you can move forward with clarity and confidence. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review, and share this show with someone who can use a reminder that growth starts with mindset. When people think differently, we all move forward together. Thanks again for listening, keep learning, keep questioning, and keep choosing to live with an unstoppable mindset.

What if social media left you feeling encouraged instead of angry, anxious, or drained? I talk with Kevin Clark, one of the people behind Blessn, a faith-based social media app built around positive connection, community, and creator monetization. Kevin shares how a friendship that began backstage at the Academy Awards grew into years of entrepreneurship, failed ideas, successful homes for people with developmental disabilities, and eventually app development. We also explore doom scrolling, fear management, trust, learning from failure, listening to your inner voice, and focusing on what you can control. Kevin’s story is a reminder that building something worthwhile often takes far more persistence than expected, but community and purpose can make the effort worth it. Highlights: 00:10:46 - Learn why repeated business failures can become valuable training for future success. 00:21:17 - Discover how Blessn combines faith, positive social media, and creator income. 00:26:19 - Explore how fear can become a tool instead of something that controls you. 00:37:20 - Consider what changes when doom scrolling is replaced with faith-focused content. 00:47:03 - Learn how trust and shared values can strengthen an online community. 00:54:12 - Hear what founders often underestimate about app development, testing, and feedback. About the Guest: Gerald Jones and Kevin Clark's friendship goes back over 20 years, to the night they first met backstage at the Academy Awards. Their bond grew through creativity, shared values, and a deep desire to make a difference. Together, they later won an Emmy Award for a public service announcement addressing school gun violence - a project that reflected their heart for inspiring hope and protecting the next generation. Beyond their work in media, Gerald and Kevin have also been long-time business partners supporting individuals with developmental disabilities, running programs focused on empowerment and compassion. This commitment to community is woven into everything they do - and it became the foundation of Blessn. The story of Blessn began in March 2023, when Gerald Jones became sick of doom scrolling on social media, and found himself bummed out after every TikTok session. It occurred to him that maybe there was a better way. There should be a short form video social media that uplifted and encouraged instead. He thought it would be better to faith scroll instead of doom scroll. He called his business partner, Kevin Clark, who was feeling the exact same way. They decided to create something themselves, that uplifted people about the world and each other. Something that encouraged connectedness. Over the next several years, the two friends poured their faith, creativity, and personal savings into developing the Blessn app, testing every detail to make sure it felt safe, uplifting, and positive. Their mission is to shift the culture of social media and to make it a place where kindness, faith, and encouragement are celebrated, not drowned out by negativity. At its heart, Blessn is more than an app - it’s a movement. A space where users can share uplifting videos, connect with others who believe in goodness, and replace endless “doom scrolling” with “faith scrolling.” Gerald and Kevin believe that positive scrolling has the power to change hearts, strengthen communities, and remind people that light always wins over darkness. **For more information on the Blessn app, visit: blessn.com** Ways to connect with Richard**:** The Blessn website is: https://blessn.com Follow on social media @blessnapp  social media links: Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/blessnapp Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Blessnapp About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:

What makes a leader worth following when money and job security are not enough? Richard Battle has spent more than 40 years learning that leadership is built through service, purpose, and the way we respond when life does not go as planned. Richard and I explore lessons from corporate leadership, volunteer organizations, grief, personal growth, lifelong learning, and his American Can-Do book series. You will hear why servant leadership can motivate people far beyond a paycheck, why Richard replaced “Why me?” with “What now?” during adversity and how recording our stories can leave lessons for generations we may never meet. I believe you will find Richard’s approach to leadership and purpose both practical and encouraging. Highlights: 00:03:57 – What a major financial setback taught Richard about real-world learning. 00:16:46 – Why volunteer leadership can make you a stronger business leader. 00:23:19 – Why preserving your stories can matter to future generations. 00:30:24 – How shifting from “Why me?” to “What now?” changes adversity. 00:46:28 – What inspired Richard’s American Can Do book series. 1:03:36 – Why Richard believes purpose can continue beyond our lifetime. About the Guest: Author, Speaker, and Advisor “Richard Battle is the antidote to that which brings you down.” – Gail Fallen, 1310KFKA Veteran of life’s’ battles whose mission is Helping People Win Every day! Richard has been a public speaker on leadership, inspiration, history, sales, volunteerism, and patriotism for over 30 years.  He is the multi-award-winning, Best-Selling author of 12 books. Richard Battle was a corporate executive with decades of experience in leadership, sales, and executive management. Texas Governor Rick Perry appointed him to the Texas Judicial Council and the Texas Emerging Technology Fund. He served on the board of directors and was a past chairman of Alpha Kappa Psi, an international professional business fraternity. As president of the Austin Junior Chamber of Commerce, the U.S. Junior Chamber of Commerce recognized the chapter as the Most Outstanding chapter in the United States, and the Junior Chamber of Commerce International recognized Richard as the Outstanding Chapter President in the world. His board service includes the John Ben Shepperd Leadership Institute, Boy Scouts of America, the Muscular Dystrophy Association, and Keep Austin Beautiful. Richard serves as master of ceremonies for the Texas State Prayer Breakfast, which honors the governor for the National Day of Prayer. Not immune to challenges, Richard has survived an apartment fire in which his neighbor died, experienced financial ruin with the Texas real estate collapse in the 1980s, divorce, experienced two heart procedures, survived cancer, and the most significant loss of all, the death of his only son. Richard lives in Lakeway, Texas Aim High Work Hard! NEVER Quit! ® Ways to connect with Richard**:** www.richardbattle.com [email protected] X = @richardvbattle Richard V. Battle Published Works on FB P.O. Box 341911 Lakeway, Texas 78734 512-987-2058 For interview requests, contact Allen Media Strategies: Shaili Priya at [email protected] or 703-589-8960. About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:

What does it take to carry one film idea for more than 20 years and finally bring it to the screen? William Joseph Hill is an actor, writer, martial artist, producer, and independent filmmaker whose love of movies began with Star Wars. We explore how his childhood in Hawaii, business training, acting career, and martial arts experience led him to create Cyber Fighter. William shares how he turned the story into a novel, comic book, audiobook, and short film while learning crowdfunding, directing, visual effects, sound design, and post-production. You will also hear how AI tools are changing independent filmmaking, why strong preparation matters, and how support from the right people can keep a creative dream alive. William’s story clearly shows what can happen when you keep learning, trust your vision, and refuse to stop. Highlights: 00:04:35 How movies and Star Wars inspired William’s filmmaking dream. 00:21:51 How martial arts and brain science shaped Cyber Fighter. 00:26:39 Why a short film became the best way to prove his vision. 00:32:44 How William moved forward without waiting for Hollywood gatekeepers. 00:46:30 Why persistence and support are key to an unstoppable mindset. 00:56:35 How AI can support filmmakers without replacing human creativity. About the Guest: William Joseph Hill is a SAG-AFTRA actor, filmmaker, writer, and producer based in Los Angeles, California. Raised in San Diego and Hawaii on Ford Island — the historic naval base at the center of Pearl Harbor — William grew up with a perspective shaped by the intersection of military history, multicultural community, and the vast Pacific. That island upbringing instilled in him a belief that where you come from is never a limitation on where you can go.  He began making films as a teenager on Ford Island. Returning to San Diego after college, William moved to Hollywood where he began his professional acting career.  He met his actress wife Pamela through a theater group and the both of them founded Four Scorpio Productions where they’ve created their own content including three seasons of That Darn Girlfriend, their YouTube channel sitcom which is an homage to classic 1960s/1970s TV. In 2023, William channeled more than two decades of experience into his most ambitious project: CYBER FIGHTER, an original sci-fi martial arts short film that he wrote, directed, produced, and completed entirely in post-production — solo. With a $20,000 budget raised entirely through an Indiegogo crowdfunding campaign launched during the SAG-AFTRA and WGA strikes, William refused to let industry upheaval stop him from making his vision real. He performed his own stunts, edited the film, created all visual effects, mixed a 5.1 surround soundtrack, and delivered a 4K DCP for festival screenings — all from his home studio in Hollywood. CYBER FIGHTER is more than a short film — it is the proof of concept for a full transmedia franchise that William has been building since 2015. The IP exists across multiple formats: a completed short film now entering the festival circuit, a feature-length screenplay, an original novel, and a comic book adaptation. It is the story of a filmmaker who refused to wait for permission, refused to accept that resources determine vision, and refused to quit when everything around him said stop. Ways to connect with William**:** Personal Website: www.williamjosephhill.com Production Company: www.fourscorpio.com Film and Video CYBER FIGHTER Official Trailer: https://youtu.be/Ja-S5HgNK5E YouTube Channel (Four Scorpio Films): https://youtube.com/fourscorpio Making CYBER FIGHTER BTS Series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5Sj6Du4oNA\&list=PLbYhzGWWTWrpvoT2eh730iA6_b_2qhFsO IMDb Profile: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0384069 Social Media LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/williamjosephhill/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/williamjosephhill/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CyberFighterMovie Stage32: https://www.stage32.com/williamjosephhill Amazon Listing CYBER FIGHTER - novel: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B081SJRMJ1 CYBER FIGHTER comic adaptation: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08ZL6X6W6 About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:

What can live radio offer that an algorithm never will? I talk with WNCW radio host and Southern Songs and Stories creator Joe Kendrick about music discovery, public radio, human connection, and the changing music industry. Joe shares how childhood mixtapes led to more than 30 years at WNCW, where live DJs help listeners find new artists while reflecting the communities they serve. We also explore emergency broadcasting, vinyl records, streaming royalties, podcasting, bluegrass history, and why supporting artists and public media still matters. I believe you will enjoy Joe’s stories and his clear reminder that technology can offer endless choice, but it cannot replace a trusted human voice. Highlights: 01:23 – How a small-town childhood shaped Joe’s curiosity. 04:29 – How radio and mixtapes sparked his love of music. 17:49 – Why live radio creates a stronger human connection. 22:28 – How public radio supports people during crises. 31:16 – Why public radio still matters to communities. 41:38 – How streaming affects artists and music value. About the Guest: Fascinated by radio at an early age, I was having “driveway” moments by grade school, or at least moments when I wished my parents would let the song play out before cutting off the engine. My father’s turntable, with its enchanting cue lamp shining on the platter’s pattern of dots indicating whether it was at the correct speed, was like a lighthouse beckoning me to a land filled with yet-to-be discovered, electrified bliss. I was also enamored of stars on television, including sportscasters and newscasters, taking on their persona to call an imagined NASCAR race on a portable cassette recorder for example, and imitating Robin Williams in front of my fourth-grade class. By middle school, I got my first jam box and was off to the races with mix tapes, recording songs straight off the radio, my favorite study aid. I was keenly interested in not only the music on the radio but also how the DJs presented it, and would call in to make requests or to ask why they kept playing the Guns N’ Roses songs I did not like. I started collecting music, primarily though tape clubs like Columbia House. I read Rolling Stone and wrote to the editor to disagree with a David Fricke review of Jimmy Page’s album Outrider. By college, I was determined to become a DJ, the coolest job on the planet. At UNC-Chapel Hill, WXYC beckoned, and after trying and failing to get on staff (the screening process was quite challenging, filled with questions about music I had never heard of on commercial radio or in print), I landed there in my junior year. There, my musical horizons expanded beyond where I could have imagined when transfixed by that vintage Technics turntable spinning Queen’s News of the World a few years before. There was more, of course, like college basketball (asking Dean Smith a question about how he coached his teams to shoot free throws so well at a student forum was likely my first brush with greatness), and a budding instinct to make sense of the world via the written word. Journalism school (specifically advertising) and hand-written album reviews at WXYC were early outlets. During and after college, there was also the occasional short story or essay, along with a few features on other passions like mountain biking, and more music reviews to write for zines and entertainment weeklies. Writing and radio remained an avocation for the next fifteen years, with a notable stretch of ten years as a franchise owner in the landscape lighting business dominating my resume before selling that and becoming full time morning host at public radio WNCW in 2006, where I had been volunteering following college before working part-time in the early 2000s. In the mid-1990s, I moved into the old family homestead, which my great-grandparents begun in the 1880s. I got married and had kids, and learned about being a husband and father, as well as how to take up the mantle of family legacy. Two ancestors who became more and more important in this legacy are Earl Scruggs (see: banjo) and W.J. Cash, author of The Mind of the South. Fast forward to 2014, and the concept for Southern Songs and Stories had taken firm root, after previous music-oriented endeavors Lingua Musica and What It Is had run their courses. As a video documentary series before lack of funds cut it short at two episodes, it became obvious that my ambitions outstripped my means, and making it a podcast was the way to go.  DIY, y’all. Southern Songs and Stories is primarily a music artist-focused series, with interviews, music excerpts, and commentary. The concept of elision is my north star: I edit conversations to fit for length (typically a half hour each episode, currently) and for the overarching statements that each episode should make. Marrying concepts and focusing on the intersection of ideas is typically my goal, along with the foundational work of highlighting engaging conversations and music. My hope is to bring in casual fans and die-hards alike: whether you know anything about artist X, Y or Z, I aim to pull you into their world within the first three minutes and keep you engaged there for the remainder of each podcast. I also love working with a chain saw and making campfires, but that conversation can wait until we might connect later on. Ways to connect with Joe**:** WNCW https://www.wncw.org/people/joe-kendrick-1 Southern Songs and Stories: https://www.southernsongsandstories.com/ Because WNCW is an NPR station, I have gotten involved with many projects there. For example, I was featured for a week during The World Café’s “Sense Of Place” series when they came to Asheville, NC in 2016. I produced videos in their Night Owl series which they posted on their Facebook for a while. This is the most recent example, when I was on their podcast New Music Friday: https://www.npr.org/2025/07/25/1256217309/new-music-friday-july-25-2025 Social links: https://substack.com/@joekendrick – I post scripts and transcripts of the podcast here https://www.facebook.com/joseph.kendrick -- I mostly remain quiet here so as not to work for free https://www.instagram.com/southstories/ -- likewise, I post infrequently https://www.youtube.com/@JoeKendrickNC – all my podcasts go here, plus very many other videos I make About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! 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