Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Spence Shelton, Lead Pastor of Mercy Church, a rapidly growing multisite church in Charlotte, North Carolina. Since launching in 2015, Mercy has expanded to multiple campuses while maintaining a relentless focus on reaching people, developing leaders, and sending them into ministry. In this conversation, Spence shares how churches can intentionally build a culture of multiplication by developing leaders from within, creating healthy sending pathways, and stewarding opportunities for church revitalization. Stop “plucking” leaders. Start growing them. // One of Spence’s biggest challenges to church leaders is resisting the temptation to solve leadership shortages by hiring talent from elsewhere. Just as churches prioritize reaching lost people rather than simply attracting Christians from other churches, they should approach leadership development the same way. Instead of constantly recruiting experienced leaders, churches should intentionally identify, disciple, and develop people already sitting in their congregations. This approach takes longer, but it creates leaders deeply shaped by the church’s culture and mission. The power of the shoulder tap. // Many future ministry leaders never consider vocational ministry simply because no one asks them. Spence encourages pastors to intentionally “tap people on the shoulder” when they observe leadership potential. Some of Mercy’s key leaders—including executive pastors and campus pastors—came directly from marketplace careers like banking, manufacturing, and physical therapy. Rather than waiting for seminary graduates to apply, Mercy helps people connect their existing gifts and experiences to ministry opportunities. Create a clear leadership profile. // To make leadership development intentional, Mercy created a “Lead Pastor Profile” built around three categories: character, competency, and calling. While designed for future church planters, the framework serves as a roadmap for developing leaders throughout the church. By clearly defining what healthy leadership looks like, staff members know exactly what qualities to identify, cultivate, and reproduce in others. Character matters before charisma. // Within the character category, Spence believes self-awareness is one of the most overlooked leadership traits. Effective leaders understand both their strengths and limitations and are secure enough in their identity in Christ to build teams around areas where they are weaker. Without self-awareness, talented leaders can make excellent first impressions while creating long-term organizational damage. Character requires observation over time and not just impressive interviews. Multipliers build movements. // When evaluating leadership competency, the ability to multiply is critical. Can this person develop other leaders? Have they demonstrated the ability to move beyond accomplishing ministry personally and instead equip others to lead? Churches often unintentionally hire capable “doers” rather than leader-builders, limiting long-term growth. Multipliers create healthy ministries because they reproduce leadership instead of accumulating responsibility. Alignment creates unity. // Calling isn’t simply about theological agreement, but also includes ministry philosophy. Spence stresses the importance of ensuring leaders share the church’s convictions about how ministry is carried out. When someone consistently wants to reshape the church into something fundamentally different, the healthiest response may be helping them pursue the ministry God is calling them toward elsewhere. Clear alignment creates healthier teams and stronger long-term partnerships. Let people discover their gifts by leading. // Churches shouldn’t expect to know someone’s leadership potential before giving them opportunities to serve. Mercy intentionally creates pathways where people can lead community groups, coach leaders, and gradually assume greater responsibility. Some will flourish as long-term small group leaders. Others will demonstrate broader leadership gifting and eventually plant churches. The key is creating a culture where trying, learning, and growing are celebrated rather than feared. Revitalization begins with humility. // Spence also shares lessons from Mercy’s experience helping revitalize struggling churches. Successful partnerships require patient relationships, deep humility, and genuine respect for the legacy of existing congregations. Rather than viewing church buildings as opportunities to expand Mercy’s influence, the team approaches every conversation as the stewardship of Kingdom resources. By honoring the faithfulness of previous generations, Mercy has seen older congregations joyfully become part of new seasons of ministry fruitfulness. Faithfulness compounds over time. // Spence closes with an encouragement for church leaders: don’t underestimate what God can do through long-term faithfulness. Leaders often overestimate what can happen in five years while dramatically underestimating what God can accomplish over twenty. Healthy multiplication isn’t built through shortcuts. It grows steadily through consistent obedience, patient leadership development, and a commitment to stay the course. To learn more about Mercy Church, visit mercycharlotte.com or follow Spence Shelton or the church on social media for additional leadership resources and updates. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe Do you feel like your church’s or school’s facility could be preventing growth? Are you frustrated or possibly overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that you could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs? Well, the team over at Risepointe can help! As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead you to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Your mission should not be held back by your building. Their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to incorporate creative design solutions to help move YOUR mission forward. Check them out at risepointe.com and while you’re there, schedule a FREE call to explore possibilities for your needs, vision and future…Risepointe believes that God still uses spaces…and they’re here to help. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. You know, this week is a great conversation and was recommended by one of my favorite church leaders in the country. And so you’re going to love this conversation. It’s going to be super helpful. And I do think it’s going to challenge you and provide you some steps forward. Rich Birch — Excited to have Spence Shelton with us. He is from Mercy Church, a multi-site church with three locations, if I’m counting correctly, in Charlotte, plus Church Online. God is leading Mercy Church into a season of a bunch of expansion and investment in ministry facilities and outreach over a two-year discipleship initiative called All to Him. They have a goal to launch the Mercy Family of Churches in in late 2025, which I think is maybe launched, or we’ll see where that goes, and is aiming to form their own collective within the next five years. Super excited to have you on the show today, Spence.Spence Shelton — Man, such an honor to be with you, Rich. Man, this is, I’m a big, going to say it, I’m a big fan of yours, man… Rich Birch — That’s kind of you to say. Spence Shelton — …because you have produced so much helpful content for me as a leader to lean into and grow little by little. And I can only hope that I can contribute a little bit more to the great work you’ve been doing, man.Rich Birch — Come on, that’s amazing. Honored to have you with us and to learn from you today, Spence. And mutual friend in Andrew Hopper…Spence Shelton — That’s right.Rich Birch — …who I love, fantastic leader. And so shout out to Hopper. Thankful for what God’s doing in his church as well. So Mercy Church started in 2015. Give us a picture of kind of where things are at today. If we were to come to the church, what would we experience? Kind of talk us through the last season, kind of the last couple of years. What’s that look like?Spence Shelton — Yeah, man. So if you came to Mercy today, what you’d find is a church, you might be surprised to learn how big it actually is because the church is, you know, a couple thousand people, but it’s across seven services and three campuses. And there’s some of some of that’s intentional. Some of that is, hey, we’re just kind of following the Lord where he’s led in this. And we didn’t really plan for it, you know, so. Spence Shelton — Our average service size is not that big, but we’ve the Lord’s been really gracious. If you came what you’d find is especially at our broadcast campus you’d find an old church building that you’d be thinking: wait are all these people how are they you know filling in here, you know. Rich Birch — Right. Spence Shelton — And you’d see cars parked uh all through a neighborhood and everything else and you’d see a retrofitted old church building, and that’s just the story of God’s grace on us – a building that was given to us and a church family that decided, hey we want to join you guys and they gave us their building. Really cool moment that like a legacy moment of faith in our church. And a couple other spots where we’re seeing similar sorts of things and it’s just it’s awesome, man. Spence Shelton — So we feel blessed. We feel like we are um doing what God has called us to do because we’re seeing that kind of momentum in the ministry that we’re doing. But none of our facilities are going to wow you, I promise. I actually love training church planters because, you know, so many times they come in and they’re like, Oh, ah we can do this. Rich Birch — Right. Spence Shelton — I’m like, yeah, you can do it. You know? Rich Birch — That’s normal like us.Spence Shelton — So we are praying and asking the Lord for better wins. Yeah. But you can do it, man. If you can do it here, you can do it anywhere kind of thing. So Lord’s been really gracious to us. And it’s a, it’s been a real joy these past 10 years.Rich Birch — It’s so cool. It seems like you guys are in a bit of a pivotal season or an inflection point season where you’ve got a bunch of things on the horizon, launching Mercy Family of Churches… Spence Shelton — That’s right. Rich Birch — …the 50 Missionary Goal by 2030, a collective. Talk me through those. What is the future look like? What’s driving the urgency? Help us understand kind of what the future looks like.Spence Shelton — Yeah, man, I think this happens for any church, both leader and in just the life of a church. You come to those milestone moments. We hit it last year with 10 years, and it was not only a milestone in terms of age. There was some just real growth that had been happening to the church that was forcing some good conversations around long-term you know expansion so that we can continue to facilitate what we believe God, actually, I should say we could steward what God is doing in our church.Spence Shelton — And so we launched an initiative that we called All to Him. I was teaching through the book of Romans all year last year. And so it comes out of Romans 12:1 and 2, because Christ gave his all for us, we give our all to him. That is our living sacrifice that we do. Spence Shelton — And so we said, we got some goals as a church, man. We want to see our church, we got some reaching goals. We got some training up goals. We got some sending out goals. Because when I planted Mercy Church, one of the things that was on my heart: if we’re going to come to Charlotte, North Carolina, we were going to be a sending church. Which means we’re going to build a sending hub here where this thing’s going be like an aircraft carrier that just sends out missionaries all over the place into the battles that the Lord has for us across the world.Spence Shelton — That was just on my heart. Instead of going to, you know, a place that might be, might have a, I don’t know, like a north Pacific Northwest or Northeast, something like that. If we’re coming to the Southeast to the Bible Belt, we’re doing so intentionally. Very intentional.Spence Shelton — So that’s been on our heart um ever since day one and this All to Him initiative. You know, we were hoping that by 2030, we double the size of our church. That’s because Charlotte is growing by 150 people a day.Spence Shelton — So like, we’ve got to, you know, this isn’t like it’s just because it’s something we want to do. It’s a calling, a good stewardship of the moment that we’re in. And we want to we’re launching a seminary certificate program for our members of our church because we want to train them up. Right.Spence Shelton — And we got a goal to see 50 missionaries go on the mission field by 2030. We just planted a couple of weeks before the recording of this, we planted our next church here in Charlotte, and we’ve got plans for several more.Spence Shelton — We are a large family of churches about to become a collaborative. We’re, we’re ah you know, 2028, 2029, somewhere around there, we’ll officially form that collaborative if the Lord continues to do what he’s doing. All because, man, we are convinced that God has brought us here to reach people, train them up, send them out, which I hope does not sound novel to any church leader listening to this.Spence Shelton — I hope it just sounds like, yeah, man, that makes sense.Rich Birch — Right.Spence Shelton — It’s like, well, then what’s the the magic or what’s the the secret sauce? It’s just putting your hand to the plow. And now here we are 10, 11 years in, and we’ve been steadily doing that same work. And I think the Lord is, um you know, our buddy Andrew would use the flywheel. That’s his favorite version of that illustration. But you keep putting your hand to the same thing and eventually the Lord starts to bear fruit. And that’s what we’re seeing now.Rich Birch — Yeah, so good. And yeah, you know that and you’re a kind leader, you know that for some leaders, the reason why we’re talking to you today is unfortunately, that is more novel than it should be. And so we want to dig into that a little bit.Spence Shelton — Sure..Rich Birch — Particularly, let’s maybe start with that middle section, this training goals, you’re working on trying to train people up. When you’re thinking about the kind of leadership vision you have as a church, you’re thinking about, hey, we’re going to raise up leaders both you know here to and then also sending.Rich Birch — I think we we can fall into this dichotomy around, okay, so do we find these leaders from other places and attract them to come here? Or, do we grow them up internally?Rich Birch — Do we find a way to develop them internally? So it’s this idea of plucking talent rather than developing it. Talk to me through why is training so hard in so many churches? Why do we struggle with that? And we seem to default towards, let’s just find somebody from over there and have them come and help us here.Spence Shelton — Yeah, man, I think that mentality starts all the way down to the idea of reaching people that don’t know Christ versus just sheep swapping from one church to the other church. Right.Spence Shelton — So you can grow your church by transfer growth. Um, which I actually am one who, Hey man, if somebody on the sideline in one church and then they plug into your church, I I’m all for it And if the same thing happens with Mercy, all for it. Spence Shelton — But our aim, what we all know as pastors and ministry leaders is our aim is man, let’s reach lost people and then disciple them. Right. Rich Birch — Yes.Spence Shelton — The same thing I think should be true with leadership development. For some reason, when it comes into developing leaders, we tend to go a different direction and think, well, let’s just go find where some leaders are and get them to to plug in.Spence Shelton — It’s like, we don’t do that even with discipleship. Why are we switching our mindset? And so I want to just kind of, I have to, I was convicted and wanted to call our church and I would call others to the same mindset that you have with discipleship. Let that carry over into your leadership and your leadership development as well.Spence Shelton — And I think that’s how we’re going to grow, just as how we’re going to grow the kingdom by reaching lost people, how we’re going to grow the leaders in the kingdom, the number of leaders we have, it’s going to be developing them in our church. And I just… I don’t know that we’re even thinking that way and asking the question, is the guy who’s a 27-year-old physical therapist in my church, has anybody ever bothered to tap him on the shoulder and ask, hey, man, could God be calling you into ministry?Rich Birch — That’s good.Spence Shelton — Because I watch you and no we’re not doing the shoulder tap, man. And so um right now, I just I love it. Just a little bit of the story of our church… Rich Birch — Yeah. Spence Shelton — …our executive both of our executive pastors and two of our three campus pastors were all in the marketplace. One of our executive pastors was in banking. Another was a plant manager. We have two campus pastors who were both, I use physical therapists because they’re both former physical therapists. And you know, we’re sitting there having these conversations.Spence Shelton — You know what makes a great pastor is someone who has sat with person after person told them, hey, you should do this to feel better. And then they come back to you later and say, hey, I don’t feel better. And you say, did you do the thing I told you to do? And they say, no. And you say, well, you should have done that.Rich Birch — Right.Spence Shelton — And a patient, long suffering physical therapist turns out to be a great pastor, but somebody’s got to tap him on the shoulder and say, hey, man, I think God might be calling you into this. And so my my encouragement to anybody who’s a in ministry right now, kind of in that leadership development role, and you’re like, I don’t know, we’re gonna have to go outside to find some talent.Spence Shelton — I promise it’s going to take longer the way I’m talking about. But if you will seek the Lord, ask the Lord, and then start shoulder tapping and giving some opportunities for guys to lead, for men and women to lead there in your ministry and whatever the leadership roles might be, I think there might be more people in there than you realize. Because I believe that God provides for the church that he’s growing, that he’s called you to lead. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. Spence Shelton — And so I think the same thing is true with leaders as well.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. I love that. And I you know I love the even the vision for, hey, maybe there are some people within your church. We see this statistically, like even if you’re thinking about campus pastors, 9 out of 10 campus pastors are coming from within, which means we’ve got which means we’ve got to get good at this. Spence Shelton — Yeah.Rich Birch — And yeah, if your church has any kind of unique slant on the world, you’ve got to find people who have come up through that culture to ah to ultimately push that culture forward.Spence Shelton — Yes.Rich Birch — I love this this marketplace to ministry transition. How do we help people do that? That’s a real key transition. I would imagine on your end, you’ve got to help connect the dots for somebody. I love that there, how you even with the physical therapist, we’re able to connect the dots between, hey, here’s what you’re doing. Let me talk to you about the kind of role that we’re thinking about. How do you make that transition? Have you developed anything to try to help make that, you know could you know, connect those dots for people as you’re having those conversations?Spence Shelton — Yeah, I would say we don’t I don’t have a conversational map that I’m doing.Rich Birch — Sure.Spence Shelton — I don’t have that yet, though I think that’s just like many things, trial and error, and I’m still in the still cooking to formulate that map.Spence Shelton — But what I do have that we’ve worked through with our staff is something we call, it’s interesting, we actually call it the lead pastor profile.Rich Birch — Okay.Spence Shelton — The reason we call the lead pastor profile is because everything we’re doing, we’re building towards, developing towards planting more churches. And you’ve got to have a lead pastor to go and plant those churches. Rich Birch — Yeah. Spence Shelton — Now, the thing is actually when you when you look at it, it’s actually just a ministry leader profile, you know? Rich Birch — Right. Spence Shelton — Everything on there, but there may be a couple of things that are nuanced specifically to lead pastors, but it’s kind of like when you go into Timothy and you see what are the characteristics of an elder? Well, every single one of them is just a good Christian, except then you got this thing able to teach. You know what mean? Rich Birch — Right, right.Spence Shelton — So it’s a similar thing is like most of our profile, nine points on it and divided into three buckets, it’s mostly just what makes a good ministry leader. Well, then what I’m doing is what we are doing is we’re taking that and we’re training our whole staff through it and saying, Hey, here’s what we are looking for. Here’s what we’re trying to develop. And then here’s everything. So I do a training monthly with our staff on these points. Rich Birch — Right.Spence Shelton — And then I do it and I say, yeah, I have to verbally say it, never underestimate or never overestimate, I guess just that it’s going to happen without you saying it, always say what you want them to do, you know, just good old preaching point there. But man, Hey, I want you guys to take what I’m teaching you and go teach your volunteers. Rich Birch — That’s good. Spence Shelton — And go teach those that. And I want you to teach your leaders. And then I want your leaders to be able to teach them. And if it doesn’t work, I want you to come back and tell me so that we can get better at making this a multiplying thing. Right. Spence Shelton — So we just got to have a lot of checks and balances along the way. So we’re hopefully training. And it took a while to pull this together in a way that it makes sense to all of us. And now that we’re kind of running it, we can see the value in it of, hey, this is what we’re looking for. And now you can go shoulder tap and say, I know what I’m looking…So the the kids director can go, I know what I’m looking for.Spence Shelton — Now I can go and start shoulder tapping because I know what, you know what i mean? Now that know what I’m looking for, it’s…Rich Birch — Totally.Spence Shelton — Those are probably the the beginnings of a conversational map to to walk somebody through, but at least you know what you’re looking for. You can start to have those conversations. And if you have the relational equity, those conversations can really go somewhere.Rich Birch — Love it. I’d love to double click on that. I love this lead pastor profile idea. I think working to get the clarity I think is in is a great, you know, a great task for all of us to wrestle through.Rich Birch — We think, well, we want to develop our leaders, but then we don’t have any definition of what do we mean by a leader, like at its more most basic level.Spence Shelton — Yes.Rich Birch — So we don’t need to get into all nine, but are there a couple of them that are either counterintuitive or maybe we miss, or you find yourself coming back to time and again, that are like real dividing points or like ones that kind of stick out to you in the in the framework?Spence Shelton — Yeah. All right. So obviously all nine matter to me or I wouldn’t have had them all. So I’ll do my best.Rich Birch — Yes, exactly.Spence Shelton — I’ll do my best.Spence Shelton — So we divide him into three buckets, character, competency, and calling. So each one of those has three points under it. And I’ll click on one of them, maybe in each, and you can tell me if you want to go further.Rich Birch — Sure. That’s great. Yeah.Spence Shelton — But in character, the one that I find to be the most overlooked is self-awareness.Rich Birch — So true.Spence Shelton — I find that to be the most overlooked characteristic of a good leader is one who is aware of their strengths and aware of their weaknesses and is settled in their identity in Christ so that their weaknesses don’t crush them.Rich Birch — That’s good.Spence Shelton — You know, they can instead build a team around them, you know. Because the classic thing with a lead pastor is to say, well, I’m good at vision and bad at details. It’s like, OK, man, maybe we need to do something a little more thoughtful than that, because that resonates with me for sure… Rich Birch — Right. Right. Spence Shelton — …that you ask the guys around me for sure. But what what? what about are you better at vision casting or vision creating? And what are the evidences of that in your ministry? You know, so for me, I’m better at vision casting than I am vision creating. That’s probably my my 9 to 10 is actually sharing it.Spence Shelton — But I got to have some help and and love having help in the other side of that. And so there are plenty of other things like that. But when we have someone who’s not aware of their strengths and weaknesses, usually that’s that’s like a stop point for us.Spence Shelton — And so if we’ve got someone we think, oh, man, they they come across because here’s the thing. Unless you have these points, somebody will can make a great first impression and a lot of long term damage in your ministry. Rich Birch — That’s good. Spence Shelton — Not because they have bad intent, but because they’re not aware of what they’re… And you give them a lot of responsibility and maybe they’re not actually, they don’t have the eyes of Jethro in Exodus 18 to know how to build out a ministry.Rich Birch — Right. Right. Spence Shelton — You just thought they did because they gave off a good first impression.Rich Birch — Right. Spence Shelton — So that’s my biggest biggest one in that character, or not biggest one, but that’s a key one, I think, in the character is…Rich Birch — Right. A key one that sticks out.Spence Shelton — …man, are you self-aware? And so whatever we use, we love different, whether it’s the personality assessments, leadership assessments, but we also, and we just, we wanna develop from within because that gives us the ability to see.Rich Birch — Right.Spence Shelton — We can see what their strengths and weaknesses are. Rich Birch — Yes. Spence Shelton — Because we’ve had people eyes on them for months and years and you can’t really trade that out.Rich Birch — Yeah, and character takes a long time of up-close observation to really get a sense of where where people are at.Spence Shelton — Yes.Rich Birch — Because, and you know we know this is, this is you know we don’t have to think long. There are lots of examples of leaders who—and all look great—but there’s like a 2% you know, problem in their character that ended up showing itself in the most kind of ugly of ways.Spence Shelton — That’s right.Rich Birch — So I know all nine are super important. I get that. appreciate that. But we can’t be here for three hours. So competency, what was what’s one in there that that that tends to say we’re just trying to whet people’s appetite to kind of help them think through it a little bit.Spence Shelton — Yeah, man. For competency, the one that I would, the the one that, yeah, that spend a lot of time on when it comes to competency, what I would say is the multiplier. Rich Birch — That’s good.Spence Shelton — I want someone who is a proven multiplier before I move them into an increased um level of leadership and responsibility. I want to see it, man. And if we, otherwise, again, what I’m trying to weed out is someone that talks a good game or someone that just has a, there may be someone I think a lot of leaders that might actually be really strong in the gift of hospitality have found themselves in the arena of administration simply because they are, like generous, kind, easy to talk to people. And they’re great. You want to be around them. They’re probably encouragers, that kind of thing. Spence Shelton — And it’s like, wait a minute, have they multiplied? Do they actually understand what it takes…Rich Birch — That’s good.Spence Shelton — …to take someone from leading self, to use the old Ramsharan leadership pipeline, from leading self to leading others, have they actually, do they understand what it takes? Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Spence Shelton — And do they understand what it takes to go from leading others to leading leaders? And have they, let’s let’s just look behind them. If you wanna go the the Bible route, you just take 2 Timothy 2:2…are they able to train up faithful teachers who can then teach others also? That to me is, especially when we get into who’s going to go out and plant a church…Rich Birch — Right.Spence Shelton — …and I’m not sending somebody out that’s not a builder. Another way to say multiplier would be builder, but I say multiplier because I’m specifically thinking around leadership and leading those who will lead others. Rich Birch — Yeah. Spence Shelton — If we want to build a movement of churches for the sake of the glory of God, and we want these churches to go and continue to build, there’s got to be multipliers leading this. Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.Spence Shelton — You know, gotta be. So when it comes to competency, that’s like a a deal breaker for me for who we’re going to send out the plant. And so I want to develop it starting in our student ministry, you know, and working our way through or starting in our college ministry, working our way through.Spence Shelton — I don’t want to wait until we just try to, otherwise we’ve got to go pluck out from the, you know, ether, somebody that we hope is a multiplier. And I don’t want to do that. I’d rather raise them up.Rich Birch — Well, and we see this temptation in churches when they get to, say, 1,000, and then they’re they’re growing you know they’re they’re eyeing 2,000 beyond. There’s a there’s a dangerous temptation that can come in, particularly for our staff teams. I know we’re talking broader than just staff teams, but particularly for our staff teams, we can ah we can forget the Ephesians 4 call to equip others to to ministry.Spence Shelton — That’s right.Rich Birch — And we just become doers. We hire doers rather than multipliers… Spence Shelton —Yes. Rich Birch — …because they get stuff done. And we’re like, oh man, they’re solving problems for us. But that is can then erode a church long-term very quickly. I’ve seen that so many times where they end up with, you know they slow down.Spence Shelton — That’s right.Rich Birch — They’re like, why are we slowing down? It’s well, because you’ve stopped multiplying. You’ve stopped doing what we’re called to do. I love that. Rich Birch — So then the third category calling anything in there that would, that steps that kind of is similar. Again, I know all nine are are really important, but, but any of those that that kind of jumped to the, to the front.Spence Shelton — Maybe I’ll give you one that has we’ve learned through some some painful trial and error, Rich Birch — Okay. Sure. Spence Shelton — And that is, we call it alignment. And what we mean by that is: as you develop a leader, when it comes to their long-term place in your church and leading maybe even beyond your, so in our case, beyond our church to going in and leading ah a church that’s going be a part of the family of our churches, it’s really important that not only are they theologically aligned, but they are philosophically aligned in terms of how we do church.Spence Shelton — So no shade on any other way of doing church. What I’m saying is so that we can continue to be united in one voice internally, so at Mercy Church with how we do discipleship, and then so that we can be united in how we can help and train one another as a family of churches, we got to be aligned not just around our theological convictions, but on our ministry convictions, how we do it.Spence Shelton — I would say to those of you out there who have a promising young leader, but it seems like they just don’t want to do, they want to change your church into their, a different kind of church.Rich Birch — Right.Spence Shelton — The best thing you can do is set them free. Rich Birch — Yes. Spence Shelton — And I don’t mean like, that’s not like code for firing, by the way, that genuinely that genuinely is like, help them find a way, an off ramp to whatever it is they sense God calling them to. If they’re not, you know, they might be just, they need more season of development. That might be all it is. But when it comes to appointing people towards and, and, setting people into key leadership. So take an elder role at Mercy Church, community group coaching, shepherding, that kind of thing where you’re in now, you are shaping, not just participating. You’re really shaping the DNA of our church. Spence Shelton — We’ve got to be aligned with what we’re doing. It also makes for a much more enjoyable experience. I’m not saying we’re not thinking. We’re always thinking over here about how to do it better and trying to be faithful and everything else.Rich Birch — Yes.Spence Shelton — Of course. But I’m saying, man, you want to feel like you’re locked arm and arm going together. And when conviction comes that goes a separate way, it’s like best to separate. So we’ve we’ve learned that the kind of the hard way. I think a lot of lessons are hard.Rich Birch — Sure.Spence Shelton — And so I offer this as our missions pastor likes to say, we have paid some dumb tax. Rich Birch — True. Spence Shelton — And so wherever we can save another person from paying it, we’d love to do that for you.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I love that. and And yeah, I think alignment’s a massive deal and and calling it out. And I would think being in a church that is um so focused on sending, you’re you’re hoping that that’s a big part of what’s kind of the outcome of the church. Spence Shelton — That’s right.Rich Birch — That, you know, having an an outlet for that sending in a way that makes the most sense. Hey, here’s a leader who seems to have the skills and, you know, and and and then you can celebrate, hey, they seem to have some unique ideas that they want to go and see happen somewhere else.Spence Shelton — Yes. Yes.Rich Birch — That’s fantastic. Rather than having to like fight that. I think that’s cool. That’s really good. Rich Birch — So, you know, help me ah pick this apart a little bit. So one of the interesting things I find in this whole kind of leadership pathway, leadership pipeline conversation is there are, so I think we all can be influential. I think in one way we are all called to be leaders, but not necessarily everyone that we’re discipling is necessarily going to be a lead pastor. They’re not all necessarily going to. Rich Birch — Now I understand we’re kind of discipling towards that, but help me understand what are you doing internally with folks that you’re like, I just, they’re just not going to make that jump eventually. How do you have that conversation? I know that’s a hard conversation. What does that look like?Spence Shelton — Right.Rich Birch — Or am I just looking at this wrong? Which could be the case too. Happy to be wrong. Help help me think through that.Spence Shelton — Well, we’ve got to have some freedom that comes from distinctive categories. This will help us a great deal. Helps me in pastoring a great deal. First, we got to have the category of spiritual gift. The Lord has given everyone a spiritual gift… Rich Birch — Yep. Spence Shelton — …and we got to celebrate that. Rich Birch — Right. Spence Shelton — And we got to be careful not to turn the leadership pipeline into, or that concept of leader development, turn that into a a grading of gifts. Like you’ve got a, you know, you’re, you need to graduate from one gift. Maybe that’s a better way to say it. Graduate from one gift to the other, to the other. It’s like, no, no, no. Rich Birch — That’s good. Spence Shelton — What we’re not talking about is graduating out of your gift set. God has given you that. And the best thing for you and for his church is to get really good at how he’s given you or how he’s gifted you. Rich Birch — That’s good. Spence Shelton — And when we when we conflate those, when we only talk about just you know getting better, it’s like, man, we got to watch out. Instead, let’s say, how can we get better at the giftings God has given us so that we can steward it really well?Spence Shelton — And then we find ourselves able to say, and when it comes to leadership, and here we are as church leaders, we’re now inside of a category. We’re inside of a category of leadership. And how can we develop leaders who are gifted by God as leaders? Well, the good news is maybe take some pressure off everybody, you’re not really going to know if someone’s gifted in leadership until you let them try to lead. Rich Birch — True, yes. Spence Shelton — So you got to let them try to lead, man. And then as they lead and you give them a couple of swings, two, three, four, whatever, and you coach them along the way, hey, here’s what we’re looking for in a leader. Here’s how you can grow from leading self leading others. Take the pressure off. Spence Shelton — This might be how God has gifted you, we don’t know. But the best way to see, based on what we’ve seen so far, is to let you try. So here’s a community group, and here are the things you’re gonna need to be a good community group leader, and we’re gonna coach you and support you.Spence Shelton — Let’s go. And let’s see what the next six months brings, right? Rich Birch — Yep, that’s great.Spence Shelton — Hey, this went really well. We wanna take you out of this community group leader seat and put you in as a coach. Now there’s a different set of skills you’re gonna need to be a coach, but man, it seems like your people responded to your leadership. What do we think about you as a coach? Spence Shelton — Each set of the way, man, do I have the, the way I always say it to our staff—they’re sick of me saying this, so it’s great to talk to you because…Rich Birch — I’m not sick of it. Yeah.Spence Shelton — …[inaudible] fresh person to say this too—is that clarity in expectations creates confidence in execution. The clearer you are with what you are asking someone to do, the more confident they will be in doing it. Another way to say it.Rich Birch — That’s good.Spence Shelton — So that’s just my my big thing there on on this. Let’s get over now that we’re, and what we’re going to find is some people are going to lead a community group faithfully for 20, 30 years at our church. Rich Birch — Right, right.Spence Shelton — Praise the Lord. What we can’t see is that we can’t see that a failure. Rich Birch — No. Spence Shelton — Others are going to lead for six months to two years. And we’re going to man, this, this person’s a leader and, and we’re seeing it. They already, they’re planting. Spence Shelton — I had someone come up to me the other day at church and tell me, Hey man, I just wanted to tell you, we’re so excited. You challenged me about five years ago to lead a community group. And we just planted our fifth group. And I went, like I went, I was, my mind went so far. I didn’t even have time to be, to be celebrating. Rich Birch — Right. Spence Shelton — Cause I was like, does anybody know that there’s a guy out here… Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Who’s just cranking out groups. Spence Shelton — …with the with an apostolic gift just planting groups every year what’s going so so. Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s great. Spence Shelton — I was like hey, but so that that was a a great moment the Lord gave me just of, hey this is this is going really well and there will be some that will lead a group and things won’t go well and they won’t go well and you’ll keep trying different efforts. So to my community group leader friends, hey once someone tries and tries and tries, would you maybe tap their shoulder and say hey can we try something else. You know. Rich Birch — Good. Spence Shelton — Like you are not a failure. We just got to find the gift that God has given you. Rich Birch — Right. Spence Shelton — And the more that’s in the conversation of your church, that’s in the atmosphere of your church—We’re just looking for the way God’s gifted you. And we’re going to try and make you the best you can be at how he’s gifted you.—The easier the conversation is going to be of, I don’t think it’s community group leadership. I don’t think it’s this. I don’t think it’s that. Because we have a culture of, Hey, trial and error, you know?Rich Birch — Right. That’s good. That’s so good. I love that. And I love this has been a great kind of look under the hood of this whole multiplication issue. I think a lot of church leaders out there have the desire. They have the like, oh, we, man, I would love to be a church that has that kind of vision. But then what are the mechanics underneath of that? How do we actually do that?Spence Shelton — Yeah. Yeah.Rich Birch — Super helpful. Pivoting in this totally, well, it’s a related but different direction. Your church has been involved in a number of revitalizations. You talked about on the you know top end, you had a you know facility given to you. And I this is like a super inappropriate, with just a few minutes left, curveball to throw in there. What’s your shorthand thing for us to learn about that? Rich Birch — You know that we’ve seen, particularly from a multisite point of view, this area has grown hugely in the last 10 years. It was 10 years ago, 5% of new campuses came about because multiple revitalization. The most recent study showed showed it was 40%. Spence Shelton — Wow.Rich Birch — I suspect Warren’s out talking right now. I suspect the number is even going to be higher. What are the few things that you’ve learned about, you know, those kinds of conversations and relationships that have allowed it to work for you? And it’s been helpful. It’s been a joy giving part of the story at Mercy. Talk us through that.Spence Shelton — I’m going to do so using another point in my lead pastor profile just to have some fun here.Rich Birch — Love it.Spence Shelton — So one of the things we look for in a leader is confident humility. Rich Birch — That’s good. Spence Shelton — Confident in terms of, man, they believe God has called them to something. You know there’s a there’s a settled confidence there. But the humility to be patient and wait on the Lord and see what he has and to consider others, Philippians, to consider others more important than yourself. Right? This matters a great deal when it comes to this area of revitalization.Spence Shelton — What a leader needs to know that there’s this temptation, and I had it, of why would you not give us your church building? Rich Birch — Right.Spence Shelton — Things are going well for us and struggling for you. Why would you not do that?Rich Birch — Yes.Spence Shelton — Well, it’s that there’s an unintentional, I’m call it a holy ambition that may be a little bit creating some blinders. Okay, let’s use the positive side of that. The the negative side would be there’s some arrogance there. Rich Birch — Right. Yeah.Spence Shelton — But the positive would be holy ambition. But what you gotta know is, man, often these facilities that are housing these churches, the ones that are remaining, a lot of the times that there are people that have been there for decades and for a generation or two, and they put blood, sweat, tears and money into where they are. Spence Shelton — And we had to take the the approach of slow by my standards, still fast by theirs… Rich Birch — Yes. Spence Shelton — …slow by my standards. Conversation after conversation that began with , in both of these cases, began with the church that needed revitalizing coming to us. We didn’t go to them. Spence Shelton — They came to us and said, hey, we’re trying to figure out what’s next. We hear you might be able to help. How can you help?Spence Shelton — And we had to present them. We had to consider that a stewardship process. of a kingdom resource, not a how do we advance the name of Mercy Church.Spence Shelton — And so it’s happened two different ways for us right now. One is a campus of our church. You know, we it took months and months, but they wound up voting to hand us the keys, join our congregation, and we held their hand the whole way through. And it was a really beautiful thing. And it’s where our broadcast campus meets today. Spence Shelton — There’s another one that happened where we decided the best thing was for that to be a, because of the neighborhood it’s in in East Charlotte, to be a church planting incubator where we could plant a church every 18 months to two years. Rich Birch — Love it. Yeah.Spence Shelton — And so that’s what we’re doing right now. And there’s a church plant in there. And that was the best stewardship of that building. And after the conversation with their people, but we kind of, we basically put that with them and say, I had a lot of lunches and dinners that I just I’m going to tell you, if you want to get into this game and you want to do it in a way that’s going to honor the Lord, you got to be ready for the patient handholding that I would say is honoring a legacy of faith these folks are are taking.Spence Shelton — In many ways, the greatest step of faith taken in our church has been a couple of other churches handing us keys…Rich Birch — Yeah, 100%.Spence Shelton — …to something that the Lord was an outpost for the gospel at one point. And now in both of those cases for us and in the others that we’re starting to see that are still too soon for me to talk about, it’s just, man, now there’s an outpouring happening in both of those places. And you got like, man, there’s a couple of folks that are from the original congregation of what is now our, where our broadcast campus now is. And they, they, they’re greeters. They have tears more mornings than they don’t on Sunday mornings.Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, for sure.Spence Shelton — It’s beautiful, man. Rich Birch — Yeah, it is.Spence Shelton — I mean, they’re all in. They are way bigger fans of Mercy Church than I am. And I’m the lead pastor of the church. Rich Birch — Yes, right. Spence Shelton — You know what I mean? And they just, they are like, they love, because what they actually are is they, they took a step of faith, a huge step of faith, trusting the Lord. And the Lord has blessed them and renewed a a vigor in their ministry. Spence Shelton — I saw a couple of them, mid 80s, and it was about 11 a.m. weekday and they were leaving the church building. I was pulling up. I just put windows down. Hey, what are you doing? It’s like, well, we just finished prayer walk in the neighborhood a couple of times…Rich Birch — Wow.Spence Shelton — …and it’s getting too hot now. We’re going inside. And I’m like, these are the people I want, man. Rich Birch — Yes.Spence Shelton — Like just they’re retired and they have chosen they’re going their day prayer walking. It’s like, well, you told us to pray. And I’m like, yeah. Yeah. Rich Birch — That’s amazing. Yeah, that’s incredible.Spence Shelton — Thank you for leading the way you have the time and this is what you do with it. So, man, there are if if all we see is just, Oh a facility to advance my cause. And we miss what has actually been the sweetest thing for our church has been our very young church got some grandparents.Rich Birch — Yes. Spence Shelton — It’s beautiful, man. Beautiful. Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. That’s so good. Spence Shelton — So that’s just a little bit I learned from that ah from those couple of runs we’ve had. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s amazing. And yeah, that underlines, so it’s definitely the majority—I think it’s three quarters, if I remember the most recent statistics on these sort of revitalizations—are coming about because the joining church is coming to the lead church, not the other way around.Spence Shelton — That’s right. That’s right.Rich Birch — And so you have to position yourself in a way that that confident humility is a great kind of benchmark to be thinking about, friends. How do we you know hold ourselves in a way that we’re here to serve other people, we’re here to care for them in a way. And I say to church leaders when we talk about these things, I’m like, you have to handle these relationships well enough so that then they’ll tell other people, hey, wow, we loved working with Mercy Hill.Rich Birch — Man, there we love working with Mercy Church. Well, we love working with mercy Mercy Hill too. Spence Shelton — Sure. That’s right.Rich Birch — We love working with Mercy Hill, Mercy Church, too many Mercies. Wow, what a great you know interaction that was been. And wow, that’s a life-giving thing.Spence Shelton — That’s right.Rich Birch — And I loved that. That is what ultimately we’ll see more of these happen long-term. Not because you did some, you know, so too many people have these like, You know, like they use merger and takeover and like this kind of aggressive language, which just doesn’t help in the conversation at all.Spence Shelton — No, it doesn’t help at all. Yeah, that’s exactly right. You got to have that humility. And if somebody’s sitting there wondering, okay, man, well, how do I how do I wait on that without, I want to go get it. I want to get started. I’d say two or three things to do if you’re looking and you believe your church might be a good church candidate for helping another church revitalize, whether that’s being a campus of yours or or something to that effect. Spence Shelton — I’d say first start praying and asking the Lord. And that if you’re not fasting, then you’re not praying yet. Rich Birch — Yeah. Love it.Spence Shelton — So I don’t want to hear that you’re praying if you’re not fasting on this. Secondly, man, this is why networks matter. So I would say whatever your denomination or stream is, whatever, however you’re kind of tied to other churches in your community. If you have no relationships with other churches in your community, and then you want to go and be the revitalizer, that’s going to come, that’s probably going to come across a certain way.Spence Shelton — So There are a number of—years and years and years—of meetings that I’ve gone to, conversations I’ve sat in, in order to genuinely try to say, how can we help? How can we help?Rich Birch — Yeah.Spence Shelton — Whether that’s sending a worship leader to go serve at a church one Sunday morning or helping one church with a a building fundy kind of like thing they got to upfit or something, you know.Spence Shelton — Basically, I’m trying to be a team player in the Kingdom here in our little corner of the world in Charlotte. And then that’s going to earn the respect and the trust for when those conversations can happen in the relational network, those conversations can happen. Spence Shelton — So I am one who just in my nature, I do not like meetings. I don’t like them. Rich Birch — Sure.Spence Shelton — They feel like necessary evils. Rich Birch — Love it.Spence Shelton — And I’m trying to get better about that. But they are actually what I do love and value is trust and relationships. And again, confident humility. I have to be more about the Kingdom than I do about my own church. And a rising tide lifts all boats, you know.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. Well, this been a great conversation today, Spence. I really appreciate that. And thanks for going with me there with that little you know detour at the end.Spence Shelton — Of course, the joy.Rich Birch — That was fantastic. But anything you’d love to share just as we wrap up today’s conversation?Spence Shelton — I would say too—I don’t know what’s spurring this, but something that has helped me so much in my ministry to the leader out there, especially the young leader, but maybe to all of them—you will always overestimate what you can do in five years and you will drastically underestimate what you can do in 20. Rich Birch — That’s so true.Spence Shelton — And there maybe a way to say it is you will overestimate what God will do and underestimate what God will do. So this is a little plug of me saying, stay the course, stay the course where you’re at. The Lord is going to do a work in honor of your faithfulness to the work. Stay in it, man. Stay in it.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Just to add to that, I’m doing some research on working on a book on churches that break the 2000 barrier. And one of the interesting telltale signs are senior leaders and senior leadership teams that have been in the same church or the same community for 20 plus years. Spence Shelton — There you go. Rich Birch — So going into their third decade, it just takes time. Spence Shelton — There it is. Rich Birch — You know, it’s not it’s it’s not you know’s not overnight. Rich Birch — Well, I really appreciate this. This has been a great a great conversation. Spence, if people want to track with you or with the church, where do we want to send them online? Spence Shelton — Yeah, man, you can go to probably social media is the the day and age that we live in. So @SpenceShelton is my social media handle. It’s Instagram and and those kind of things. Our church is just @MercyCharlotte. And you can go on our website, mercycharlotte.com. Find everything you need there. Spence Shelton — We’re launching a podcast. Praise God, let’s go. You can find all of it, though, just through our Instagram handles, which is usually a good first landing point for folks. And however we can help, man, feel free to reach out. Nothing super shiny about what we got going on over here, but we love being in the game for the Kingdom. However we can help.Rich Birch — All the best as you serve in Charlotte. Thanks so much, man.Spence Shelton — Thank you, brother.

Leadership failures rarely happen overnight. More often, they begin with unseen pressures, unresolved pain, and unhealthy patterns that slowly erode a leader from the inside out. In this special compilation episode, we bring together four candid conversations with experienced church leaders who openly share the personal struggles that nearly derailed their ministries. Rather than focusing on leadership strategies or organizational systems, this episode explores the inner life of church leaders. From burnout and unprocessed grief to stress management, character formation, and radical honesty before God, don’t miss the lessons that can help you build healthier, more sustainable ministries. Use these conversations as discussion starters with your teams, asking not simply how the ministry is doing, but how the leaders themselves are doing. Unprocessed Loss Eventually Takes Its Toll Bob Riedy reflects on the burnout that brought his ministry to a halt and the painful realization that decades of accumulated loss had never been properly grieved. The death of a family member, staff transitions, declining attendance after COVID, fractured relationships, and personal shame all compounded over time because he kept pushing forward instead of processing what he had experienced. His story is a powerful reminder that even successful leaders are vulnerable when they ignore the emotional weight of ministry. Key Takeaway // Pastors experience constant loss, but simply “moving on” isn’t resilience. Healthy leaders intentionally process grief with God before it silently grows into burnout, anxiety, or shame. Listen to the Full Episode // Burnout, Breakthrough, and the Road to a Healthier Ministry with Bob Riedy (May 29, 2025) Simple Practices Build Long-Term Resilience Charles Stone shares practical neuroscience-backed habits that help leaders reduce stress and remain emotionally healthy. Rather than offering complicated solutions, he begins with something every leader can practice immediately: intentional breathing. By slowing the body’s stress response through simple breathing exercises, pastors can create space to think clearly, regulate emotions, and respond wisely during difficult seasons. Key Takeaway // Resilience isn’t built during a crisis. It’s developed through consistent daily practices. Simple rhythms like intentional breathing can help pastors lower stress before it becomes overwhelming. Listen to the Full Episode // Leading Through Stress Without Burning Out with Charles Stone (July 3, 2025) Crisis Reveals Character Allen Holmes explains that gifted leaders often reach a defining crossroads when crisis exposes weaknesses beneath their talent and experience. Every leader eventually faces a moment when they must decide whether to hide behind their abilities or allow God to shape their character through hardship. Churches that embrace this perspective create cultures where leaders remain, grow, and mature instead of running from difficult seasons. Key Takeaway // Leadership development isn’t primarily about improving skills. Rather, it’s about allowing God to form character. Crisis often becomes the catalyst that moves leaders toward deeper maturity and lasting influence. Listen to the Full Episode // Why Gifted Leaders Still Fail: Lessons from 25 Years of Ministry with Allen Holmes (March 5, 2026) Honesty Before God Leads to Healing Scott Landry vulnerably recounts one of the darkest moments of his life after personal failure left him isolated, angry, and questioning God. Rather than meeting condemnation, he encountered God’s presence in the middle of his raw honesty. His story illustrates that true healing begins when leaders stop pretending, acknowledge what’s really happening inside, and allow God to meet them in their deepest pain. Key Takeaway // God doesn’t meet the version of us we project to others—He meets the person we truly are. Healing begins when leaders stop hiding and bring their deepest struggles honestly before Him. Listen to the Full Episode // Leading After You Lose Everything: Redemption, Honesty & The Fight with Scott Landry (December 18, 2025) This compilation reminds us that leadership health begins long before visible success or failure. Healthy churches are built by healthy leaders, and healthy leaders cultivate habits that address the condition of their hearts, not just the effectiveness of their ministries. Whether you’re leading through growth, challenge, or personal struggle, these conversations invite you to slow down, examine your inner life, and take intentional steps toward long-term faithfulness in ministry. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary Podcast. So glad that you’ve decided to tune in. You know, the subtitle of our podcast is Stuff You Wish They Taught in Seminary. Rich Birch — And today I wish there was like a big underline under that word wish. I wish this conversation was a robust conversation when I was in school. Today we’re listening in on four senior leaders talking about really stuff that was going on on the inside when nobody was watching. Rich Birch — This is a good time of year for you and I as executive leaders to pull back and to think deeply about the kind of structures we’re building as an organization that really create a flourishing environment for our people. You know, we asked earlier in the year what your greatest fears were for this year and 24.8% of you indicated that staff health, structure, morale, succession were your top fear this year. And so today’s conversation, what we’re doing is listening in on four senior pastors who get really honest on the show about what was happening on the inside of them. Rich Birch — One of the churches that I was an executive pastor at, about a decade after I left, the senior leader made tragic decisions in their own personal life that ended up burning the church down, literally to the place where that organization doesn’t exist anymore. And from my understanding, actually the building is going to be demolished. Literally there’s nothing left. Rich Birch — A ministry that impacted tens of thousands of people doesn’t exist today because of the decisions of a senior leader. And so at this time of year, in the summertime, I want to challenge us to listen carefully to some leaders that have been through some horrific moments and have come out the other side more healthy. And I want us to learn from these moments and say, hey, what can we do to structure our ministry so that we can be the healthiest possible environments we can possibly be? Rich Birch — So up first, we’ve got Bob Riedy at Church of the Open Door, who hit a wall on a Sunday morning a few years ago, and he learned about ungrieved losses that took 40 years of ministry to see. So let’s listen in to Bob and see what you and I can learn as we think about the future. [Clip 1 Begins] Bob Riedy — I really do think that loss, and especially not properly processing and grieving loss, was a big part of what was behind all of this. In 2018, I lost my brother, my younger brother, who was really my wingman in so many ways. That was a loss that I think in some ways I’m still wrestling with. Bob Riedy — During the pandemic, we lost, pick a number, a lot of loss as far as attendance and stuff. At first, we were off for about four months, but then when we came back, people began to trickle in, and it was clear to me that we lost hundreds of people as well from our church during that time. That was probably a profound thing for me. Bob Riedy — We lost some key staff members as well during that time. We lost some friends because of the politics and some of the difficulty of that. And so I think loss was a big part of that. Bob Riedy — My counselor has really helped me a lot with that, not properly grieving loss. Terry Wardle is one who said that ministry is a series of ungrieved losses. And I found that I really wasn’t doing that good. I was shaking it off and just moving forward, shaking it off and moving forward, and not really grieving it and bringing God into it and surrendering it to Him. Bob Riedy — And I think part of what happened with that as well was I was concerned about what people thought. We were this powerhouse of a church, growing like crazy, and all of a sudden, like every other church, we were struggling. Bob Riedy — And I remember the day that I burned out. That afternoon my children all came to our apartment. My wife and I were living downtown, and my daughter reminded me of this the other day. And she said, Dad, do you know what you said to me that day? And I said, no. She said, Dad, you said to me, what are people going to think of me that this happened to me? Bob Riedy — And that was a loss that I wasn’t able to really properly wrap my head around. I was more concerned about how this was going to look with me as a Christian leader in our community. And then I think one of the places that the anxiety came from as well was shame. Bob Riedy — One of the things the enemy, I think, came after me with was like, you’ve been telling people here in York how to live for the last 15 years, and you let this happen to you. And wow, I wrestled with that as well. So I think that loss and worrying what people were concerned about or what they were thinking of me, and then the shame of wrestling through that as a senior pastor whose church had been top 100 churches. Bob Riedy — I taught church leadership and biblical preaching at Lancaster Bible College, and this happened to me. And so I really wrestled with just the fallout of all that. [Clip 1 Ends] Rich Birch — What are people going to think? Bob’s daughter quoting him back to him is a part of this thing I just will not shake. Ungrieved loss, it compounds. Rich Birch — Loss is a part of your role. It’s a part of my role. But what Bob learned the hard way is that shaking it off and just kind of moving on will cost you more in the long run than sitting with it and processing it. Rich Birch — Charles Stone is up next. He’s a friend, a pastor, a counselor, and did his PhD on stress while he got diagnosed with three serious conditions in the same year. And we’re going to focus on an easy kind of habit that he has installed or practiced that he has installed that I think you could use in the midst of your processing, of dealing with even those kinds of ungrieved losses. Let’s listen in on what Charles has to say today. [Clip 2 Begins] Charles Stone — Well, I kind of get thematically. One involves how we breathe. These are practices that can help us develop resilience. Charles Stone — One has to do with how we breathe. Two have to deal with our emotions. One has to do with our thinking. One has to do with contemplative practices, spiritual practices. Charles Stone — One has to do with something called certainty. One has to do with gratitude. One has to do with relationships. And one has to do with sleep. So any of those, I’m game for any of those that you feel like we ought to touch on one or two of them. Rich Birch — Well, what about maybe breathing? Why don’t we start right at the top where you started? And then, you know, we’ll scratch the surface. There’s a ton we could, obviously, we want people to pick up a copy of the book, but let me start with breathing. That might be kind of interesting. Charles Stone — Yeah. Well, actually, this ended up being the first one because it’s very easy to do. Now, I think around 75 times plus, you’ll find the word breath or breathe in the scripture. Charles Stone — And Genesis, God breathed into Adam. He became a living being. I think his early part of Acts, Jesus breathed on the early church, the Holy Spirit came. Charles Stone — And then David, the psalmist wrote, let everything that has breath praise the Lord. Now, here is the interesting neuroscience insight. Deep breathing activates a key set of nerves that come directly from my brain, just come from my spinal cord. But these are these are key nerves that they’re in pairs. Charles Stone — One of them is called the vagus nerve, comes from the word vagrant. What does a vagrant do? He wanders around. So this nerve wanders around our hollow organs, our heart, our lungs, our stomach. So there’s a lot of communication back and forth. Charles Stone — Scientists have found that deep breathing, especially on the exhale, when you exhale a little longer, it actually engages this nerve, which lowers the stress response. And here’s here’s why you practice it. I call it the sniff breath. Charles Stone — Now, the actual term is “a psychological sigh”, but here’s how it would work when you’re facing some stress. Just breathe in, you know, a little more and then breathe out through your mouth. Now on the out breath, you want to be a little longer than the in breath, doing that three or four or five times. Charles Stone — Labs all around the country found it lowers the stress response. So that is a simple, a portable tool you can take. Anybody can use anywhere. Charles Stone — So yeah. [Clip 2 Ends] Rich Birch — I love Charles. He’s such a practical leader. Listen, I’d pick one of those practices this week and really try to install it. Rich Birch — I love that he started with breath work because it’s really the easiest one to start with. You can install it today. Literally, he gave you everything you need, but maybe look at the other ones. Pick up his book, “Stress Less”. Got a bunch in there. Rich Birch — Well, coming up next, we’ve got Allen Holmes. He’s been the senior pastor at Definition Church in Greensboro for 25 years. He has watched gifted leaders crash long enough that he’s built a framework around this to understand it. Let’s listen in to what Allen has to bring to this conversation. [Clip 3 Begins] Allen Holmes — It’s interesting when I, one of the other real key moments for me is I went back to do my doctorate of ministry degree at Gordon Conwell in redemptive leadership. And so much of what we were studying is how God works in the crisis, in these pressure moments to expose the unfinished places in our character so that we can grow and become more like Jesus and therefore maximize our kingdom impact in the world. Allen Holmes — And one of my professors, Dr. Powers, he actually wrote a book called Redemptive Leadership. It’s a simple little book, but profound, where he describes leadership development in five stages. And stage one is a skilled leader where you get a leadership role just based on your skill. So maybe the ability to preach. And so they call you to be the pastor. Allen Holmes — That’s how I became the pastor of my first church. I could preach. I hadn’t done anything else, but they let me be a pastor because I could preach. Allen Holmes — And then the second stage is a principal leader where you begin to understand why you do what you do. But the third stage, which is so important, is the character stage. And in order for a leader to go through the character stage, God always uses a crisis to bring him into that stage. But when he comes into that stage, he has a choice. In that stage, he can open his heart and allow God to do that deeper work, or he can go back and hide behind his skills and principle. Allen Holmes — And that’s what pastors do. A lot of times the reason you see this turnover every, you know, depending on what statistic you read, every two to four years, pastors are leaving churches is because they come into a church and they have this honeymoon season. And then all of a sudden there’s a crisis that exposes some things and they start floating their resume and hiding behind their skill rather than allowing God to deal with their character so that they can advance and become a transformative, redemptive leader. Allen Holmes — So I think one of the things that’s been so true for us is we’ve just tried to say to people when there’s a crisis, don’t panic, don’t run away. See it as an opportunity. Allen Holmes — In fact, I ended up doing my dissertation on the idea that if we could teach this model to leaders, that it would cause them to respond differently in the crisis instead of running from it, they would run to it and open their heart. And God could use that to really propel them into their redemptive future. And the research said that was true. Allen Holmes — And so we’ve tried to really work that in our culture to understand when something goes wrong, don’t run away and don’t hide. Let’s run into it and trust God to meet us there so that this thing God works redemptively to use it for your benefit and to launch you into your future. Allen Holmes — And because that’s been our culture, people have stuck around. I mean, my lead team, Rick has been here 25 years. He was he’s actually here two Sundays longer than I’ve been here. Eric’s been here 24 years. Jonathan’s been here 19 years. Chelsea’s been here almost this year will be 14 years. Steve’s been here 10 years. Allen Holmes — I mean, so they’ve just been here a long, long, long time. And that but that’s why they’ve seen these moments and we’ve helped them to find God in it so that it actually works for us instead of against us. [Clip 3 Ends] Rich Birch — Allen walked us through the five stages. The third one he talked about is character. And that’s really where I think you and I, our greatest test is at. And this is where we meet our crisis. You should go back and listen to Allen’s episode. Super helpful. Rich Birch — Coming up next for our last part of the conversation today is a friend of mine, Scott Landry. He’s the senior pastor of The Bridge near Ottawa. He’s been on the podcast before. Rich Birch — Next is a clip from a book that was coming out or that has come out called “The Fight”. And it’s the moment that he lost everything and that he was alone in a house in the Northwest Territory. The reason why I wanted this on is because I think Scott models for you and models for me an open transparency with ourselves, with our people. Rich Birch — That is something that I think you and I should live with our live with and should think through. How can we be this transparent with the people around us? Heads up. This is a heavy clip and it’s worth every second of your attention to lean in and hear what Scott shares. [Clip 4 Begins] Scott Landry — I hope that’s a powerful moment in the book because it was it’s genuinely the most powerful moment in my life. And this was this was kind of at the crescendo of my my breaking point. So after my marriage and my life specifically falling apart and I kind of lived in a place of isolation. Scott Landry — I was living in the North, Canadian North, and I was yeah, I was lost. I was I was angry like I had so much anger. And it was so, yeah, I talk about in the book and I was angry and ultimately I was angry at myself, but I was also angry at God. Scott Landry — And because even after, again, making a mess of my own life, he didn’t make a mess of my life. Nobody made the mess in my life. I made the mess in my life. Scott Landry — And but then after that, I was trying to do everything right. And I was trying to do the right thing, do the right thing. And I was like, God, when are you going to start intervening on my behalf? Scott Landry — And so, you know, being the preacher that I am, I was like, I got all the Bible verses that tell me that you’re going to like now is you’re going to do the redemptive thing. You’re going to show up. You’re going to move. Scott Landry — You’re going to fix. You’re going to redeem. You’re going to restore. Scott Landry — You’re going to repair. You can do all the R words. And and nothing was happening like it was like and it was almost as if I and I literally heard nothing. And I’d like to say I didn’t feel anything, but I did. Scott Landry — It was just this this anger that was welling up inside of me like a like a pot boiling and eventually it just I just became unhinged. Like I was alone and I was completely isolated. I was in this empty house and I just started crying out like and yelling out and I threw through things. Scott Landry — I I used words I’ve I’m ashamed to admit I used. Like I mean, I was as unhinged as could possibly. I was like, I God, if I saw you face to face, I would give you the…like I told him all this stuff. Scott Landry — And and what I found in that moment was like and I again, I talk about in the book, but like I yelled, God, I don’t even believe in you anymore. I’m done. Like I like I don’t I don’t believe. You’ve promised me that you would never leave me. You would never forsake me. And that’s exactly what you’ve done. I’ve told people that you would never leave them and forsake them. And yet you’ve done that to me. You are you are dead to me. I don’t believe in you anymore. Scott Landry — And I even now I still feel this and I’m just talking about it. But like this is and this is I know some people are going to roll their eyes at this. But like genuinely, when I heard myself say that, I felt this…like over me, over my house. It was like this eerie like pause. Scott Landry — And I heard if I’ve ever heard the voice of God, I heard a voice say, well, then who are you yelling at? And it was like this, like… Rich Birch — Beautiful. Scott Landry — And in that moment, it was like my anger was it wasn’t my degree. It wasn’t my Bible. It was it was my anger was my evidence that God was present right then and right there. And because my anger was directed at him. Scott Landry — And he knew that I was angry with him and he met me at the place of my anger and he was waiting. And this is the part that I still, I can’t do this, what’s in my head and in my heart justice. But it was God was saying, I’ve been waiting for you at this place your whole life. Rich Birch — Wow. Scott Landry — You you have been hiding from this anger from your childhood, from your young adulthood. And I’ve been waiting for you to meet me here at your anger. And I’ve I’ve wanted you to know that I would be here waiting for you. Scott Landry — And if you met me on the top of the tallest mountain and if you look me face to face and if you were to give me the finger, you would find me there waiting because I am waiting at who you really are, not who you’re pretending to be. Scott Landry — And everyone around you, you’ve got them fooled. And you’re a used car salesman and you can spin the Bible verses and you can do all that other stuff. But I know who you really are. And I’m waiting for you to finally be honest with yourself about who you really are. Scott Landry — And now that you finally are, now we can do something about that together. And that was the moment that God truly revealed himself to me. And that’s when I, for the first time in my life, truly discovered who I was. Scott Landry — And yeah, that’s the moment that I hope anybody who ever meets me or talks to me or listens to me or reads it, like that’s the part that I long for people to have before it costs them, like it cost me. [Clip 4 Ends] Rich Birch — I love that moment when Scott said he heard, who are you yelling at? Man, that sticks with you. Rich Birch — Listen, four different stories. What I’m trying to do is raise for you the question about the inner life of what’s going on at your church with the senior leaders around you. Rich Birch — What if you were to go back and look at these four conversations and maybe say, OK, this one might be the best for us to lead a conversation with, and send them one of those, send your team one of those episodes. And say, hey, I’d love for us to take some time this summer. Rich Birch — Maybe you go and relax on a back deck somewhere or jump in somebody’s boat or spend a little extra time at the office. Because there is a little bit of slack at this time of year. And ask the question, hey, what’s going on on the inside of us as leaders at the church? How are we developing and how could this conversation help us ask some different questions than we normally do in our team meetings? Rich Birch — All the links to those four conversations are down below. Thanks for sticking through this this entire conversation. I know there was a lot today, but we’ll see you next week with our regularly scheduled programs, kind of back to what we normally do here at unSeminary. Rich Birch — Thanks for being a part of the podcast. Thanks for doing what you’re doing, including the hard work of the inner life to lead your people in a way that makes a huge difference. Thanks for being engaged in the local church. Take care, friends.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Aaron Stanski, founder and CEO of Risepointe. For more than 15 years, Aaron and his team have partnered with growing churches and Christian schools across North America, helping them design facilities that remove barriers to growth and create environments where more people can encounter Jesus. In this conversation, Aaron shares some of the most common (and costly!) mistakes churches make during construction projects, along with practical strategies to avoid them. Don’t build today’s problem into tomorrow’s building. // One of the most common mistakes Aaron sees is phasing projects incorrectly. Churches may be tempted to build a larger auditorium while postponing essential components like increased parking, children’s space, or student ministry areas, assuming they’ll complete them in a future phase. Unfortunately, that second phase often gets delayed for years, leaving the church with a building that limits growth from day one. Instead of designing around what leaders hope they’ll afford later, Aaron encourages churches to build a complete project that fully supports their next season of ministry, even if that means reducing the overall size of the expansion. Create a long-term plan first. // Before drawing floor plans or establishing budgets, churches should develop a long-range vision for their campus. A master plan doesn’t mean building everything immediately. It simply provides clarity about where the church is heading. Once that long-term vision is established, leaders can determine the next right step that fits their current budget and ministry needs. Without that roadmap, churches can solve one immediate problem only to create another one a few years later. Short-term savings can become long-term expenses. // Budget pressure may lead churches to remove features or simplify systems in order to reduce construction costs. Aaron cautions that these decisions frequently create much larger operational expenses over the life of the building. Whether it’s HVAC controls, building systems, or maintenance-related decisions, saving a small amount during construction can result in years of higher operating costs. Churches need to evaluate every cost-saving measure through the lens of long-term stewardship rather than immediate affordability. Your facility should serve your mission—not become your mission. // Buildings are simply tools for ministry. The goal isn’t completing a construction project; it’s creating environments that help people take steps toward Jesus. Once the ribbon-cutting ceremony is over, the real work begins. Healthy churches continually evaluate guest experience, signage, gathering spaces, children’s environments, and overall functionality. Facilities should continue evolving alongside ministry rather than remaining frozen in time. Plan for growth before it arrives. // One surprising reality Aaron sees is that solving a facility constraint often produces immediate attendance growth. Sometimes this comes from new guests, but often it’s because existing attenders begin attending more consistently once parking, seating, or children’s capacity improves. Churches that don’t anticipate this surge can quickly find themselves facing another capacity challenge. Planning for success means considering what happens if the project works exactly as intended. Know when to start the conversation. // Aaron recommends churches begin facility planning long before they’re completely full. His general guideline is simple: when your largest service consistently reaches about 80 percent capacity, it’s time to begin exploring your options. That doesn’t mean starting construction immediately, but it does mean beginning strategic conversations, gathering data, and creating a long-term plan before your building becomes a lid on ministry growth. Courage is part of every construction project. // Building projects can feel intimidating because they involve significant financial commitments and countless unknowns. Aaron encourages leaders not to let fear drive their decisions. Throughout his career, he’s watched God repeatedly provide for churches that prayerfully stepped forward in faith while remaining focused on the mission rather than the building itself. The goal isn’t constructing impressive facilities—it’s creating spaces that help more people hear the gospel and experience life change. To learn more about Risepointe and download their free guide, Top 10 Mistakes Churches Make in Construction Projects, visit risepointe.com/unseminary. You can also schedule a free “Ask the Architect” conversation to discuss your church’s facility needs and long-term strategy. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in Listen, I know that today’s episode is going to be particularly helpful to a lot of churches. I am consistently interacting with churches, asking questions about the things that we’re talking about today. It’s a real pain point that I know many of you are leaning in on. You’re going to want to stay tuned right to the the end.Rich Birch — Excited to have my friend and really an incredible leader and expert in this whole area of developing our facilities and using them to ultimately see people take steps closer to you, really leveraging architecture, interior design, graphic design, branding, all of that stuff.Rich Birch — Aaron Stanski is the founder and CEO of Risepointe. With 15 plus years of church design, leadership, and project management experience. He works not not only with churches, but also schools and nonprofits in a wide variety of contexts. Excited to have you on the show, Aaron. Welcome back.Aaron Stanski — Thank you, Rich. Excited to be back, man. This is fun.Rich Birch — Yeah, so good to see you again. And I wanted to get you back on because I feel like, man, this is a conversation that we’ve got to keep in front of people and keep thinking about these things. But for folks that don’t know, give us a picture of Risepointe and maybe particularly the types of churches that you help when you’re like, hey, here’s the kind of churches. Aaron Stanski — Yeah. Rich Birch — How do you think about that?Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I mean, Risepointe, I mean, we’re we’re an architecture and design firm. So we have architects, interior designers, graphic designers that work directly for us. And we work with churches and Christian schools um all across the U.S. and Canada. And for us, I mean, the typical churches or schools that we work with, are ones that are about growth and are about um what we call like the you know personal ownership of evangelism.Aaron Stanski — They are churches that are like, hey, it’s not about us. It’s about it’s about people who aren’t at our church yet. It’s not even necessarily about our students and raising up those students, but it’s about families that are considering what would it look like to you know grow up their their child in Christian education. And so yeah, for us, it’s about churches and schools that are growing and wanting to have an impact on the kingdom. So.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. And I know, you know, our facilities are such a key part of what we do. You know, it’s a critical piece of the puzzle. And, you know, it’s it’s not, it can be an accelerant. It can be, or or it can hold us back. It can be the kind of thing that can help us reach more people, connect more guests, or the kind of thing that hinder us from that.Rich Birch — And you’ve been doing this for 15 plus years. When a church first comes to you, let’s say they’re wrestling with these issues. What do most leaders think, not realize that they’re walking into? Aaron Stanski — Oooh. Rich Birch — Like they’re they’re like, hey, I think we got to like do something here to fix this. What what do they what do they stumble on that’s like, hey, maybe they they’re not aware of?Aaron Stanski — Oh, interesting. That’s a great question, Rich. I mean, I think most churches, like when they call Risepointe, I mean, they understand they’re talking to an architect. They understand that construction is going to be difficult or pricing and budgeting.Aaron Stanski — And we’re going to get into a lot of that here in the podcast. I think one of the things that they might not realize when they’re first starting is, you know, just the mental load that it’s going to take to carry a project through to completion.Rich Birch — that’s good.Aaron Stanski — I mean, it’s easy to think about, oh, yeah, we’re going to have some extra meetings or, oh, yeah, Risepointe is going to be running some things. But there’s just going to be an extra load when it comes to decisions that have to be made, conversations that have to be made with your congregation, your leaders, your staff.Aaron Stanski — And that that mental load over time can take a toll and it can certainly add to the stress if you’re not careful. So.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. I don’t know what the stat is, but I remember hearing that there’s some just a giant number of percentage of lead pastors, particularly or senior leaders who transition after… Aaron Stanski — Yeah. Rich Birch — …you know, within 18 months of opening a new building because of that mental load.Aaron Stanski — Yeah. Rich Birch — You know, how does that kind of show up in maybe how you interact with them? Aaron Stanski — Yeah. Rich Birch — Or how do you lead them in a way to try to reduce that mental load?Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, I’ve heard that I’ve heard that statistic referenced. I haven’t been able to find it actually myself.Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Me too.Aaron Stanski — Fortunately, most the vast majority of executive pastors and senior pastors that work with us, like they don’t quit once it’s over.Rich Birch — Yes.Aaron Stanski — So…but I don’t know if that’s us doing something right or if like just as a culture and as a as churches, we’ve figured out like, hey, we’re going to support them. We’re going to make sure they have the right administrative support.Rich Birch — Right.Aaron Stanski — We’re going to make sure we you know bring some other people around them. um So I have no, maybe we should add that to like the XP ah survey or something next year, figure that out.Rich Birch — Survey. Yeah, that’s true. Yeah, that’s true. Yeah. Yeah. It was funny in that survey you referenced, we, we did, we do survey every year and there was, I was thinking about this morning as we were prepping for that. There’s an interesting dichotomy found in this year’s study where executive pastors had higher confidence that they were going to start a project this year. And I think it was like 80, it’s a high percentage, 80 some odd percentage versus finished projects. Rich Birch — So there was this like tension of like… Aaron Stanski — Yeah. Rich Birch — …yeah, yeah, we got stuff rolling.Aaron Stanski — Yeah.Rich Birch — Are we going to be able to finish it though? Aaron Stanski — Yeah.Rich Birch — Is it going to be a problem? Who knows, you know, whether we’ll be able to do that.Aaron Stanski — Oh, yeah. That’s good. I mean, they’re the prag you know they’re the pragmatists.Rich Birch — Yes.Aaron Stanski — They’re like, we we’re the ones that are going to have to get this done. And, you know, like we got vision stuff flying around here, but we also have like Sunday coming.Rich Birch — Yes.Aaron Stanski — So, yeah, I love that. That’s great.Rich Birch — Yeah, so good. So you’ve put together a new resource that I want to make sure people pick up at. You can just get it at Risepointe.com/unseminary. We’ll link to that. That’s Risepointe with an E, but it’s called “Top 10 Mistakes Churches Make in Construction Projects”.Rich Birch — Now, I don’t want to give it all away but let’s talk about maybe a couple let’s talk about a couple of them. Aaron Stanski — Sure. Rich Birch — What a couple top mistakes that you see churches make when they’re thinking about construction projects?Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, at some point I should probably write a book on this topic, Rich. Rich Birch — Sure. Aaron Stanski — Not because, not because I know the right things to do, but probably cause I’ve, I’ve done most of these things myself. Rich Birch — Love itAaron Stanski — So if you’ve done some of these things, don’t feel bad, just join the club. I think I should have like a punch card or something like people can like punch out if they’ve made some of these mistakes, but…Rich Birch — Right.Aaron Stanski — One of the things that we discovered is, you know, rarely, you know, when we make one of these mistakes, rarely is it like the first time that it’s ever happened in the history of church construction projects.Aaron Stanski — Right. Rich Birch — Right.Aaron Stanski — Like, and rarely is it like some like random, unique one off thing. Most of the time we can look back and say like, oh, yeah. I kind of saw that thing coming. And so hopefully like some of these things will just like help, you know, some churches hedge off like what some of those things are.Aaron Stanski — But yeah, I mean, I’ll I’ll jump right into the first one. And the first one that we see a lot is churches that try to phase the project. And that’s a, you know, that ends up being, you know, can be a big construction mistake. And one of the biggest that they make. primarily because we think phase two is coming. So we’re just going to phase the project.Rich Birch — Right.Aaron Stanski — We’re going to get this done and completed. And then three years later, we’re going to go into another campaign or we will have paid off the debt and we’re going to fix the, you know, finish the project. You know, we’ve worked with dozens of churches that spent decades in misaligned buildings because they had this approach, you know?Rich Birch — Yes. Let’s start with, I think this is great. In fact, I’ve heard you talk about this one and I have parroted this to other people when they’ve talked about their buildings. So first explain, what do you mean by phased? Aaron Stanski — Yeah.Rich Birch — Clearly pull that apart when you’re, you know, what what is the mistake that we could step into?Aaron Stanski — Yeah, so, ah because there’s two different ways that you can look at phased. Sometimes you can look at the project and go, hey, we’re going to do this first and then this second, and the construction team is going to do phase one, phase two, and then we’re done.Aaron Stanski — The construction error that I’m talking about is when we say, Hey, um, we’re going to go ahead and build the thousand seat auditorium in phase one, knowing that we don’t have enough room for the kids or parking or students and think, well, we’ll just come back in phase two and add in the parking that we need or the kids space. Um, that’s the, that’s the part that I’m talking about.Rich Birch — Yeah. And in fact, actually, I know a church that’s in this exact spot. They did not build any kind of youth space. They’ve got a great, you know, the rest of the building, but now they’re like, oh my goodness, we’ve got to go back now and redo this.Rich Birch — So why is this such a problem? Why not? Isn’t this a great way to playing the devil’s advocate? Isn’t this just a great way to save resources? We can’t do it all now. So isn’t this an a logical thing to do?Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I mean, you’re we either spend money building something that we can’t fully occupy, which is poor financial stewardship, or we end up like stuck and it hurts that first time guest experience, right?Aaron Stanski — Like I tell churches, I mean, look at the drawings that you have on paper and say, yes. Like we can do a decade or more of ministry in that space as it’s designed. Or like you got to fix it. Either fix it, or don’t spend the millions of dollars. I mean, that would be my, that would be my encouragement just to make sure we’re spending the resources the way we, the way we should, you know?Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. That’s good. And so how do I know, you know, like, because like I think this is one of those things that, you know, it’s like a, it’s a bit of a counterintuitive idea because I think lots of people actually think this is the way you do it.Rich Birch — How, what’s the better alternative then? How do we kind of pull that apart. Aaron Stanski — Yeah. Rich Birch — Double click on that, expand that a bit more to help us think more clearly on that?Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I think, you know, what we do want to have is a long term plan, right? Skipping the long term plan, that’s going to be another one of these construction fails if you don’t do it. Rich Birch — Yep.Aaron Stanski — So if we have a long term plan and say, okay, here’s what it’s going to look like on our campus if we continue to grow and we continue to trust God and here’s what, yeah, maybe here’s what phase two and phase three looks like and we’re planning for expansion. That’s great. But when it comes down to like the construction and the budget, if we just like lop something off so that we can move forward with the project, we could be we could be introducing a lid that that we don’t know about yet. Right?Rich Birch — Yeah.Aaron Stanski — And so I think what we want to do is establish that long term plan and really dial that in first and then scale it back to something and say, OK, this is a great project. It’s going to set us up for the next run. It’s the step of faith God’s calling us to do. And this thing is going to last us 10 years if we if we you know if we get it done correctly.Rich Birch — Is this, again, I’m not the expert friends at all. So I may not be so thinking about this correctly. So correct my thinking on this. Is a better way… So let’s say we’re thinking about exactly what you’re talking about. We’ve got like a 300 seat auditorium and you know we need we’re thinking we need to triple the whole thing.Rich Birch — And so we, like you say, go to a thousand seats. And so we know that then in rough terms, we would have to triple the kids ministry space, triple the you know, the parking, triple, the, you know, the crush space, the lobby space, that sort of thing.Aaron Stanski — Correct.Rich Birch — You start doing this work and then you’re on the design and you’re like, okay, but we can’t afford all all that. What I’ve seen is churches get all the way through and then they’re like, okay, they literally, they do all the design and then they’re like, okay, well, we can’t afford this.Rich Birch — They try to scope it and they just cut off the student wing or they cut off whatever.Aaron Stanski — Right.Rich Birch — Are we better to think about, okay, We eventually we want to get to triple, but let’s, let’s go from 300 to 600 and scale all those parts up that way and design a plan that then we could come back 10 years from now and maybe add the third. Is that more, is that a better idea?Aaron Stanski — Yeah, it’s a better idea because you’ll build less square footage in the first phase. Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — It’ll be more it’ll be more achievable. I think understanding what we can afford and can’t afford at the beginning… Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — …designing something to the budget, I mean, that’s really critical, right? Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — And so, yeah, I mean, I think if we just get into like, hey, what’s the vision and what would we love to have someday?Rich Birch — Right.Aaron Stanski — We’d love to have a thousand seats and stuff. Well, that’s great. um But what can we afford and what’s what’s that right next step? um Because, yeah, we have to scale the kids, the students, the parking, the guests, like all of that stuff with those number of seats.Rich Birch — Isn’t it interesting? Like we would never approach the building of our own personal house. This is the way that we sometimes do with the church. It’s me speaking with, this is not Aaron, but I, you you know, I do think we forget the, like what’s actually affordable step.Rich Birch — And we would never do that with our own home. It’s like, sure. I would love a five car garage and like, you know, this amazing, whatever insert, you know, whatever the play space and all this stuff. I, I just kind of, so like, I’m going to renovate the kitchen and I’m going to, you know, make these few changes with what I can actually afford.Rich Birch — It’s interesting that we do that. Well, you talked about the ah skipping the long-term plan is maybe one of these or something around that.Aaron Stanski — Yeah.Rich Birch — Let’s talk about that. How do we think that about the long-term plan?Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, I think sometimes it’s tempting to just kind of try to solve some immediate space needs as quickly as possible. We’re running hard. Some of us are launching campuses or we’re trying to plant a church down the road and we’re out of seats. And it’s tempting to say like, hey, can we just blow this wall out and add 200 seats? Like it it feels like that’s just the next thing to do.Rich Birch — Right.Aaron Stanski — you know I’ve talked, you know a lot of pastors, they just want the problem to go away.Rich Birch — Right.Aaron Stanski — And I get it. And like the thought of, like let’s spend some time like planning out the future, like this feels like a waste of time to them a little bit. And I mean we’ve rushed few you know we’ve rushed through some projects at Risepointe’s only to be ready to start construction and realize, like oh shoot, like the problem shifted, or we’re just going to introduce this other problem. And so, I mean, I think, you know, sitting down, taking the time and it doesn’t have to take a long time.Aaron Stanski — I mean, ah you know, we’ll come in and do a needs analysis for church in like 30 days.Aaron Stanski — So like we’re not talking about like, let’s spend a year like blue sky dreaming about all the possibilities. But I am saying let’s spend let’s spend a good amount of time like thinking about it, planning it so that we know we’re not you know causing more problems than we’re fixing.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. That’s good. What’s the tension there on, and you know I picked this up from you in a previous conversation and it it has stuck with me, is that you know all of our buildings are built in kind of a particular kind of cultural moment and a philosophy of ministry moment. Rich Birch — They’re an expression of that. And but then ministries change, right? And our ministry looks different. How do we balance that reality of like, we’re kind of want to make it work for today, but then we also want to design, have some sort of conception long-term that’s like, Hey, we could imagine a future where things might change a little bit. How do we, how do we work? How do we make that happen?Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I mean, you know, some of some of it’s prescribed pretty clearly in the Bible and it hasn’t changed for thousands of years.Rich Birch — Right.Aaron Stanski — And so like the gathering together of the saints and the singing and taking care of the widows and orphans and the opening up of the word and you know inviting the Holy Spirit to participate. And so some of those things um are just going to stand the test of time.Rich Birch — Right.Aaron Stanski — I think a little bit what you’re talking about in the expression of it is you know some of the design choices and some of the things that feel relevant or good. I think we have to be careful not to chase trends you know too often in doing some of that. But I would say there’s like a wrong there’s a strong resurgence right now in you know getting back to churches that feel like churches, in walking into spaces that feel holy and not just black boxes and some of those.Aaron Stanski — And so we want to pay attention to some of those things. And we also, ah yeah, we just don’t want to be too trendy, you know. We don’t want to chase trends, especially with architecture and steel and concrete because those things are expensive to to change.Rich Birch — Yes, yes, absolutely. Yeah, that’s interesting. Okay, so what maybe what’s another one in these top 10 mistakes? Again, friends, we want you to drop by and pick it up. But what’s another one of these we could unpack for folks?Aaron Stanski — Yeah. As I was thinking through, you know, some of the mistakes that I’ve even I’ve made, I think sometimes when we’re in construction and budgets are tight and we’re tired, we get to a point where we want to ignore, you know, maybe the long term costs for some of the decisions that we make and we want to sell it out short. Aaron Stanski — I was talking to a church last week. Right. I mean, they you know, they made a decision that saved them 20 grand on the construction project, but it cost them like 10 times that every five years in ongoing maintenance.Rich Birch — Wow. Right.Aaron Stanski — And so you look back and you’re like, well, shoot, why did we do that?Rich Birch — Right.Aaron Stanski — You know, why did we try to save, you know, $1,500 per kids, you know, room in trying to like, we’ll just put one thermostat in and make all the rooms hot or all the rooms cold and we’ll just run the air conditioning or run the, run the heater. Like long-term, like you’re spending way more money in those scenarios. So that’s one of the things is like, man, what are, what’s the ongoing operational and maintenance costs of these decisions going to be?Aaron Stanski — And I mean, sometimes it’s like, oh, this thing looks really cool, or we really want to have that.Rich Birch — Right.Aaron Stanski — And that’d be an awesome feature. And you just have no idea like, oh, man, every week someone’s going to have to go out there like with a machine and like a chemical or something to keep that thing ah functioning or looking the way ah we want it to look.Rich Birch — Right.Aaron Stanski — So.Rich Birch — Yeah. Well, and that that I can see, mean I feel like I’ve been in that conversation around even the, you know, the system controls and stuff where we’re like, man, every one of these thermostats we put in is going to cost X amount of dollars. But the long-term, you know, ah flexibility and just, you know, ability to actually reduce the cost, you know, can be amazing if we get more sensors and more stuff in there. But it seems like we’re just pinched. Rich Birch — Why why does that happen? Is it rush at the, you know, we’re just not slowing down enough when we make all those decisions. We’re not asking the questions. We don’t have the right partner at the table. Help me understand why, why do we end up making these short-term, long-term, you know, trade-offs or maybe we’re saving a dollar today, costing us 10 tomorrow. Where does that actually come from?Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I mean, I think it comes a little bit from, you know, some decision fatigue definitely happens. And then, you know, maybe not counting all the costs and, you know, potentially like we’ve missed some things or, oh, yeah, we got to get the furniture in here. And the like, and so we’re right up against like what we feel like is the top lid for what we want to spend. Aaron Stanski — And then you get into some of these things, you’re like, man, we just need to value engineer, you know, some stuff out of this project. And at that point, you know, you’re saving, you know, you’re trying to save pennies. But you’re you’re sacrificing a lot of functionality. Aaron Stanski — I mean, I think in those situations, we would say we would typically take a longer term approach and say hey before we make that decision, let’s talk about those consequences, and let’s figure out if there’s another area that we might that we that we might want to save some money on. Or another decision that we could make that would still get you to where you want to be financially but isn’t going to cost you you know the the pain every year kind of moving forward.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Yeah, that’s, man, I feel like that one, I feel like I can feel that one a little too close to home. I feel like i’ve been in that conversation in the past. Maybe one more. What’s one more top 10 mistake? Aaron Stanski — Yeah.Rich Birch — And then again, we want people to pick up the whole thing.Aaron Stanski — Yeah. Oh, man. There’s a few different ones on here that I could certainly do. You know, one of the one of the mistakes I see and I’ll kind of end with this one. It’s it’s number 10 on the list. But, you know, I called it treating the building as as the mission. Aaron Stanski — I’ll state the obvious, like yeah and most of the you know all the churches that listen to your podcast would not say like the building is the mission, right? The goal is never simply to complete the building project. Aaron Stanski — The goal is to create spaces that support discipleship and outreach and worship and community impact, right, when it’s all done. But I think we also subconsciously potentially treat the building as the mission when we get to grand opening and say, man, I’m so glad I’m done. Like that’s it, like mission accomplished.Rich Birch — Right.Aaron Stanski — Like you’re building your spaces, how you’re inviting guests in. I mean, it’s never done, right?Rich Birch — Right.Aaron Stanski — I think, you know, I mean, I think McDonald’s has renovated every restaurant in America at least five times since the last time Burger King has ever done a remodel.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Aaron Stanski — And so they one of those environments is nice and I want to take my seventh grade boys over there after we play laser tag after church or whatever.Rich Birch — Yes.Aaron Stanski — And one of those I don’t. Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — And so I mean I think you know trying to figure out how are we going to constantly improve, move signage, change where the guest services spot is, like experiment with kids, check in and move them around and update the carpet and use some accent paint and buy some awesome lobby furniture and um kind of see it as sort of a repetitive thing. Aaron Stanski — And then i would also say that a lot of churches, like they hit that finish line and, you know, because of the financial stress of it and stuff, they’re like, and we made it. Unfortunately, like if you continue to grow, you’re going to have to do another project at some point… Rich Birch — Yes. Aaron Stanski — …or you’re going to want to launch a multi-site. And if you’re still carrying the debt of that first project, you’re not going to have the finances to do it. And so I think it’s also like saying, hey, you know, this building wasn’t the end, and we’re going to aggressively pay down the debt. Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — We’re going to aggressively um open the doors to our community and let as many people use it as we can. And so, ah so yeah, that’d be one of the, one of the end ones.Rich Birch — That’s good. Yeah, I can see that. and And I think it’s great. This part of why I love you is like, I feel like there’s a lot of folks that are in your seat that do what you do for a living, who do see the building as the mission. Even the way they talk about it, they’re like, hey, this is the most important thing. But actually, it’s just a tool to serve, which is part of why I love Risepointe, love your team, love love what you’re doing.Rich Birch — Talk to us about, I think the idea there, I’ve also experienced this, I’ve seen churches with this where they build the building and then I literally, close to a church where they built a new campus and then that campus grew by 50% in the first 10 weeks after they launched and then they were scrambling. They were like, oh my goodness, now we’ve got to like do the next thing. Rich Birch — How do we how do we plan for this one? Assuming like it might actually work like people will show up. Aaron Stanski — Yeah. Rich Birch — You know how do we how do we plan on the front end thinking about, you know, beyond okay so that we get the thing open and then a bunch of new people show up.Aaron Stanski — Yeah, and and not just thinking that if you build it, they’ll somehow magically come, right?Rich Birch — Right, that’s the tension of those two. Yes, for sure.Aaron Stanski — Because that’s the tension of those two things. Rich Birch — Yeah. Aaron Stanski — So I mean, I think having the right, you know, strategic design partner or like a partner to walk alongside you in some of that, whether that’s like someone, you know, on the church growth ah side of the equation… Rich Birch — Yep. Aaron Stanski — …that can speak into some of that strategy or the multisite strategy side of the equation, I mean, those are going to be very important voices.Rich Birch — Yep.Aaron Stanski — you know Like you mentioned, we want your facility to serve your mission, not ah be a lid. ah Sometimes when we take the lid off, we open, we solve a problem, right? Uh, and that’s kind of stating the obvious.Aaron Stanski — But we’ve worked with churches where, you know, they’re running three or four services, you know, they’re maxed out. And so, yeah, we go and we double the number of seats. We open a bunch of things. And instead of coming once every six weeks, everyone starts coming once every three weeks because there’s more parking spots and more seats.Rich Birch — Right.Aaron Stanski — And so that’s when you get that immediate 50%, you know, bump. And it’s not from, you know, reaching more people necessarily. It’s it’s literally just your attendance pattern changing.Rich Birch — Right.Aaron Stanski — So when you’re sitting down and having these conversations, I think it’s really important that you look at some of those trends. You’re looking at your attendance data, and you’re, you know, you’re sort of measuring, you know, what do we think this thing’s going to do?Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. That’s fantastic. I love I love this. So we’ve got, you know, there’s a multiple, there’s other ones that we want people to check out. Again, we’ll put a link in the show notes, but it’s just Risepointe.com/unseminary. You can pick that up. There are “Top 10 Mistakes Churches Make in Construction Projects” from the mouth of someone who sees a lot of these, we don’t want people to make these mistakes.Rich Birch — How early in the process should a church reach out to you? So my my sense is that we have churches reaching out too late in the process. But how early, like if we start thinking, hmm, you know, we’re filling, you know, things are filling up. We’re thinking about, we got to fix the kids ministry space. How when in that process should they say, hey, I got to talk to Aaron and the team at Risepointe?Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, I think like if you talk to any salesperson in the, you know, on the planet, they’ll tell you like, well, you got to talk to me right away. Rich Birch — Yes. Aaron Stanski — The sooner, the better, like the sooner you’re planning to buy a car or the sooner you should call me. Rich Birch — Right. Yes.Aaron Stanski — I mean, I think ah having the conversation and the right strategic triggers to know when you need to start like the design process and the construction process, that’s the key.Aaron Stanski — So, you know, if you call Risepointe, you’re not, you know, we’re not starting architecture. We’re not selling you services or anything like that. So I think bringing bringing either us in or another trusted expert, you know we say when you reach 80% capacity at your largest service, you need to have the conversation started.Rich Birch — That’s good.Aaron Stanski — You know, you can be at 80% capacity at your largest service and be launching your first, second service, right? And that’s very different than adding your fourth or fifth on a Saturday or something like that. But in general, we we say that that’s usually that tipping point… Rich Birch — That’s good trigger. Aaron Stanski — …where we want to at least say, what is the strategy? What is the plan? What are the triggers so that the facility itself doesn’t become a lid to our growth?Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. That’s I like that’s a really good I like a good tripwire like that. I think there’s a lot of churches that are at that spot. And actually, you can go on the Risepointe website and actually schedule like an initial call, right? Rich Birch — Yeah.Rich Birch — You can drop by there. Why don’t you to tell us a little bit about that? What am I committing to? If I click the schedule to call button, what what does that mean?Aaron Stanski — Yeah, we’ve got a little “Ask the Architect” series and stuff that’s that’s rolling as well. But it basically just means you get to talk to someone who’s a church guy or gal first, but who’s an architect or a design professional. And they just want to meet you and hear a little bit about like your church and your story and where are you at and what are some of the questions that you have? What are some of the things that you’re wrestling with?Aaron Stanski — A lot of times we’re pulling up examples from other churches and kind of like walking you through some ideas or pointing you in a direction that might be helpful. But yeah, on that call, we really want to get into what’s what’s going on at your church specifically. What are some of the concerns? What are some of the things that you’re seeing or not seeing? And sometimes there’s some a homework assignment coming out of it.Aaron Stanski — Like, right. Hey, let’s go get your attendance data. Let’s take a look at some of these things. Let’s try to figure out what’s going on. Let’s have someone take a picture in the parking lot because you’re never in the parking lot on a Sunday morning.Rich Birch — Right.Aaron Stanski — You’re backstage or whatever. And ah but, yeah, it’s a great first step in you know trying to figure out you know what you need to do with your facility.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s fantastic. I’ve had, you know, multiple friends who have done that. I just be so thankful for your team’s interaction with them and just some helpful guidance in that, even that initial call to be like, hey, here’s a couple of things. Here’s a couple questions that they would ask that have you think about that, Yeah, it’s not like ah we’re committing to anything today. It’s necessarily a conversation to get the ball rolling. I think that could be super helpful. Rich Birch — Well, friends, again, we want to send you to Risepointe.com/unseminary to pick up a copy of this 10 Mistakes. I think it’s a super helpful resource that you could even just kick around with your leadership team. Hey, let’s talk about these ones. Could be great. Any kind of final words, just as we wrap up today’s episode, we want to make sure that people hear about when we’re thinking about construction projects.Aaron Stanski — You know, I would, you know, I’d say construction is ah scary and it can be expensive and it’s not what most of us went to school to do. So I would just say, like, take courage.Rich Birch — That’s good.Aaron Stanski — Like man, the number of times that we’ve seen the Lord like just show up in unbelievable ways ah when His churches stepped out in faith and said, hey, like we’re going to you know we’re going to go take something on. And so I would just say like have courage. Do not be afraid. And you know, like, yeah, make it, you know, it’s not about the building, right? It’s about it’s about lost people and and sharing the gospel. Aaron Stanski — And so, um yeah, if my mistakes can help you out in any way, I would love to love to share those with you.Rich Birch — I love it. So good. Well, Aaron, this is a great, great conversation today. Appreciate you coming back on and and helping us think through some of these issues. Again, we want to send people to Risepointewithane.com to schedule that call or, you know, pick up the mistakes. Anywhere else we want to send them online to track with you or with your firm?Aaron Stanski — Nah, man, that’s fine. I mean, they can find us on socials and stuff like that if they want to see like nerdy pictures of like church construction being built and like…Rich Birch — Mid build guys walking around…Aaron Stanski — …mid-build stuff, concrete getting poured or whatever. Rich Birch — Yes. Aaron Stanski — But but no, it’d be great.Rich Birch — Guys in hard hats, people in hard hats walking around… Aaron Stanski — Yes. Yes. Rich Birch — …you know, half built buildings. That’s good. Thanks so much, Aaron. Appreciate you, that sir. Thanks for coming on today. Aaron Stanski — Yeah, thanks, Rich. Bye.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Alvin Sanders, President and CEO of World Impact, an organization committed to equipping leaders to build healthy churches in every community experiencing poverty. After decades in pastoral ministry and leadership development, Alvin has become passionate about helping ministry leaders avoid one of the greatest threats to long-term effectiveness: burnout. Are you serving faithfully but feeling increasingly exhausted? Wondering how to sustain ministry for the long haul without sacrificing your health, family, or relationship with God? In this conversation, Alvin shares the personal lessons that transformed his own leadership after experiencing burnout. Tune in as he offers a practical framework for building a ministry that lasts. When work becomes worship. // Ministry itself can quietly become an idol. He didn’t intentionally choose work over God, but somewhere along the way, serving Christ replaced walking with Christ. Spiritual disciplines gave way to ministry responsibilities. Prayer, Sabbath, retreat, fasting, and personal communion with God slowly disappeared beneath endless demands. The result was a ministry that looked productive on the outside while becoming spiritually unsustainable on the inside. Return to the basics of spiritual formation. // Rather than searching for complicated solutions, Alvin returned to the foundational practices Christians have embraced for centuries. Prayer, engaging Scripture, fasting, Sabbath, retreat, generosity, commitment to the Church body, and intentional spiritual rhythms are not optional extras for ministry leaders. They are essential practices that sustain healthy leadership. Just as championship football teams return to blocking and tackling when they lose, pastors must continually return to the spiritual basics that anchor their lives. Pay attention to the warning signs. // In hindsight, Alvin sees numerous warning lights he ignored. His daughter once looked at him during dinner and innocently asked, “Daddy, why are you here?” because she had grown so accustomed to his absence. He gained significant weight, neglected his physical health, ignored emotional exhaustion, and consistently placed ministry ahead of family. None of these issues appeared overnight, but together they revealed a leader drifting toward collapse. Burnout is often less about one dramatic event and more about a thousand small compromises over time. Healthy leaders steward their whole person. // Pastors often underestimate the importance of caring for their physical and emotional health. Exercise is no longer something he squeezes into his schedule. Now, it is part of his workday because caring for his body directly affects his ministry. Likewise, emotional health is not separate from spiritual maturity. Leaders who fail to process stress, trauma, criticism, and disappointment eventually carry those burdens into every aspect of ministry. Healthy ministry begins with healthy people. A three-legged stool for sustainable ministry. // At World Impact, staff health is built around three interconnected priorities: spiritual formation, engaging stressors, and leadership development. Spiritual formation keeps leaders rooted in Christ. Engaging stressors helps them process trauma, maintain healthy boundaries, and avoid adopting a “savior mentality.” Skill development—including emotional intelligence, leadership growth, and contextual ministry effectiveness—equips leaders to serve wisely. Remove any one of these three “legs,” and long-term ministry becomes unstable. If you’re approaching burnout, don’t ignore it. // Alvin closes with practical encouragement for leaders who recognize themselves in his story. First, honestly acknowledge where you are instead of pretending everything is fine. Second, intentionally rest by embracing Sabbath, vacations, and healthy rhythms. Finally, if the burden runs deeper, don’t hesitate to seek help from a trusted counselor. Burnout isn’t a badge of honor—it is a warning that something needs attention. To learn more about Alvin or World Impact, visit worldimpact.org or connect with Alvin on LinkedIn. You can find his expanded book Redemptive Poverty Work on Amazon and his recent webinar on redemptive poverty work here. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: TouchPoint As your church reaches more people, one of the biggest challenges is making sure no one slips through the cracks along the way.TouchPoint Church Management Software is an all-in-one ecosystem built for churches that want to elevate discipleship by providing clear data, strong engagement tools, and dependable workflows that scale as you grow. TouchPoint is trusted by some of the fastest-growing and largest churches in the country because it helps teams stay aligned, understand who they’re reaching, and make confident ministry decisions week after week. If you’ve been wondering whether your current system can carry your next season of growth, it may be time to explore what TouchPoint can do for you. You can evaluate TouchPoint during a free, no-pressure one-hour demo at TouchPointSoftware.com/demo. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey, friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Listen, I know you’ve got a million things going on this week. In fact, if you’ve got a lot of things going on, you really need to set aside the next half an hour or so to lean in on this conversation because I really think this is going to be helpful for you. I know it’s the kind of thing that you and your team is wrestling with plus we have a return guest on the podcast which what that indicates to you is this a person I want you to hear from. Honored to have Reverend Dr. Alvin Sanders with us he is the president and CEO of World Impact which empowers leaders to build healthy churches in communities of diversity and poverty. When urban leaders so when urban leaders are empowered that to own and lead their own ministry, individuals, families, and neighborhoods ultimately flourish. Super excited to have him with us. Enjoyed his episode from maybe a couple years ago and honored to have you back today. Alvin, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.Alvin Sanders — Glad to be here, Rich, and thanks for having me back.Rich Birch — Oh, it’s great to connect a little bit. Why don’t you bring us up to speed? Tell us a little bit about yourself, about World Impact. Give us some context if people don’t remember.Alvin Sanders — Yeah, so President, CEO World Impact – our vision is a healthy church in every community experiencing poverty. We’re working to solve the problem that 95% of the world’s pastors have no formal ministry training whatsoever.Alvin Sanders — So we we try to bring that training to them and make it affordable and accessible. I don’t know if you’re paying attention to what’s going on in the Christian educational world right now in terms of universities, but it’s ugly out there. Rich Birch — Yes.Alvin Sanders — So we are really trying to make sure that people are equipped and they can be able to do ministry in the in the context that they’re called to do it.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. Yeah. And I really, friends, I would commend you to to, if you don’t know World Impact, you should get to know them. You know, all them and the team do such good good work here. Well, we I want us I want you to take us back to 2007, so almost 20 years ago, which is insane to say that that’s 20 years ago, because it doesn’t feel like 20 years ago. It feels like just yesterday.Rich Birch — What was going on in your ministry and life? Yeah, kind of bring us into that part of the story. Let’s start there.Alvin Sanders — Yeah. So in 2007, I was wrapping up a 10-year project of planting and starting a church in inner city Cincinnati. And the denomination that I was a part of, the Evangelical Free Church of America, had offered me a position to leave the pastorate and to come work for them and run what’s called our “all people initiative”.Alvin Sanders — So me and my wife prayed, thought about it and said, yep, you know what? It’s time to make a good transition. And we made that transition. Yet for the first six months after that transition, we were, it was really a weird dynamic in the fact that when we would run into other people, people would say, hey, you guys look so much better than…, I mean, they didn’t say it this directly… Rich Birch — Right. Alvin Sanders — …but essentially what they were saying is you look so much better now that you’re out of the pastorate.Rich Birch — Right. What happened? You look great.Alvin Sanders — Yeah. What happened? You look good. Did you, did you lose weight? Did you, you know, glasses, whatever, you know?Rich Birch — Oh, no. You’re like, thank you, I think.Alvin Sanders — Yeah, and Rich, this wasn’t like a small amount of people. It was like every time we ran into people. So after about six months of this, we were like, okay, so what’s going on? And then we when we looked back in hindsight, felt like the last year or so of being in the pastorate, we had burned out.Alvin Sanders — And up until that point, I really didn’t know what burnout was. You kind of sort of hear about it, but you don’t really think about it. Why? Because you’re too busy, right? So you don’t sit back and think about ordering the chaos of ministry or anything of that nature.Alvin Sanders — And so we vowed that going forward, never again would this happen to us. So essentially I divide my ministry life in the two halves. Rich Birch — Right.Alvin Sanders — The first half is pre-2007. It’s kind of like how people look at the pandemic, right? Rich Birch — Yes.Alvin Sanders — So it’s like pre-2007 and then post 2007. And so we began to implement a series of things that helped us to be able to do ministry in a sustainable way and not experience burnout because you do not have to burn out doing ministry. That’s what I’ve learned since 2007.Rich Birch — Yeah, when you so when you think about that time, yeah, I love that. Like, hey, friends, thanks for telling me I look great. Or you look terrible a year ago. Okay, thanks.Rich Birch — When you look back on at that moment, you’re like, hey, I think we were burnt out. What were some of those those patterns, habits, evidence, signs that you look at and were like, oh, that is what was going on there? You know, what what was it that, you know, got you, yeah, that you kind of saw it yourself in that moment as you looked back?Alvin Sanders — In hindsight, what I looked at is we were basically on autopilot. When I first started that ministry project, I felt a call. I felt like I was walking with the Lord. I felt the Holy Spirit’s presence. You know it was like hindsight, it’s like the book of Acts stuff. You know it was kind of like God was right there. I was energized. I was excited. I truly wanted to make a difference in the lives and the hearts of the people who were there. I wanted to make a difference in the community. Alvin Sanders — But that last year or so, I look back at it. It was just 60, 70 hours a week, flip the switch, doing what I need to do. Rich Birch — Right.Alvin Sanders — Very jaded, cynical all the time, low energy, you know, vacation didn’t matter because I had to go back to work. You know, these are, you know, it was sort of like a call of duty, so to speak. It was this is my duty to do it.Rich Birch — Right, right, right. Interesting.Alvin Sanders — Right.Rich Birch — So now you made a few decisions to, you know, in the words you use was, we do a series of things. We changed the way that we work. What were those things that you changed? What were some of those things when you look back, now that you’re on the other side of that, what were some of those decisions you made to say, hey, we’re going to live in a different way? And what was what was that? You know, what is that? What were some of those?Alvin Sanders — Well, one of the big things that I realized, and it’s going to sound elementary when I say it, but I think as pastors and people in ministry, we forget about the basic things.Alvin Sanders — You know, I’m a big football fan, Ohio State Buckeyes to be exact, right? And so I remember, I can’t remember which one of those coaches, but I remember one of those coaches, I was listening to an interview one day and they said, hey, you know, when we lose, our first practice back is we go back to the basics.Alvin Sanders — Just basic stuff. That’s all we do. Blocking, tackling, you know, simple things. And one of the things we did was we went back to the basics of what it means to be a Christian. You know, over the years, they call that spiritual formation.Rich Birch — Yep.Alvin Sanders — So the basic things of are you praying? Are you fasting? Rich Birch — That’s good. Alvin Sanders — You know, you know, just if you type in spiritual formation in Google, you’re going to get a gazillion things that pop up. Right?Rich Birch — Right. Yes.Alvin Sanders — Well, we should be doing many of those things. Rich Birch — Right.Alvin Sanders — You know, retreating. You should not be accessible all the time. Sabbath. You know, it’s Hebrews 11 tells us that, you know, we’re among a great cloud of witnesses and that great cloud of witnesses are our people who, any and everybody who has ever been Christian ever in in in the entire history of the world. And Rich, hate to break it to you, but it’s not rocket science of how to be a good Christian.Rich Birch — Right.Alvin Sanders — We just ignore it. Rich Birch — Yes. Right. True. Alvin Sanders — Because there have been people before us who have worked out, hey, these are the rhythms. These are the things that you do…Rich Birch — Yes.Alvin Sanders — …you know, to be Christian. Rich Birch — Yes. Alvin Sanders — And what had suddenly happened is I made work my worship.Rich Birch — Oh, that’s painful.Alvin Sanders — The job became what I worship. Now, I didn’t intentionally set out to do that, but I had so much passion and I had so much zeal to want to make a difference in the world that suddenly the rhythms of what made you a Christian took a backseat to the work that I was doing.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. I want to come back to that. I want to put a bookmark in you made work your worship. I think that’s a powerful idea. I want to come back to that. But just before we leave this idea, you know, I love that the football analogy. I had and a nephew that was a receiver, college ball receiver. And I remember talking to him, you know, once as well. Rich Birch — And I was like, like, tell me, what you know, kind of what is your practice look like? And how are you, how do you keep on top of that? And he said, he said, well, you know, I’ve got these three formations, these three patterns that we run. And he’s like, I just run those formations all day long. Alvin Sanders — Yes. Rich Birch — It’s like, you just, you know, it’s like the same, you know, four steps this way, three steps that way, you know, turn, you know, it’s like, I’m just do that for four years. We’re just going to run that, which stuck with me similarly that, you know, I think oftentimes, you we can complicate this and we can say, hey, that you know we can complicate staying connected to praying, fasting, Sabbath, reading scripture, these kinds of things. We can drop them. Rich Birch — Were there any other warning signs looking back now that you missed? Again, in hindsight, you look back and say, oh, there were some some things on the dashboard that were blinking and I didn’t notice that you were leading up to this breaking point.Rich Birch — Were there other things in your life besides these dropping off that you know, that you, again, in in hindsight noticed and maybe are looking for now?Alvin Sanders — There was zero what they call work/life balance. Rich Birch — Right.Alvin Sanders — Zero. Rich Birch — Right. Alvin Sanders — At that time, I was working on my PhD. I was pastoring a church full time. Rich Birch — Right. Alvin Sanders — And I was running the church’s Christian Community Development Corporation that was attached to it.Rich Birch — Yep.Alvin Sanders — And oh, by the way, I was also teaching classes at the local Bible college.Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Alvin Sanders — And had a wife and I had two kids.Rich Birch —Yep.Alvin Sanders — And so I remember during that period, a huge red flag that in hindsight, I’m ashamed to say, I did not pay attention to. One Friday night I was sitting down and I was eating dinner with my family and my youngest, Gabby, she looked up in her little toddler face and she said, Daddy, why are you here?Alvin Sanders — And I said, what do you mean? I’m I’m sitting here. I’m I’m eating dinner. You know I’m here. You know she’s and she and she was so confused that I was home.Rich Birch — Oh my goodness.Alvin Sanders — So that’s so that was a neglect of family. Right. Rich Birch — Yes. Alvin Sanders — That was a huge red flag. Rich Birch — Yep.Alvin Sanders — Gained a ton of weight because I was not taking care of myself physically. I think that’s something we underestimate in ministry. Rich Birch — I agree. Alvin Sanders — You know, to the point now that I even I count when I go work out, that’s part of my work day.Rich Birch — Right. Interesting.Alvin Sanders — Because I said I can’t be a successful minister if if I am not in shape. So I see that as a you know, I don’t have this sort of dichotomy of the physical and the spiritual, all that. No, I it’s all one. You know, it’s going to hurt me spiritually if I’m out of shape, if I’m not eating right, I’m not properly fit and all those types of things.Alvin Sanders — So I wasn’t taking care of myself physically. I clearly was not taking care of myself emotionally.Rich Birch — Yeah.Alvin Sanders — We are emotional beings. We are emotional. I have come to believe, and this is maybe a controversial point, but I don’t know. It’s my belief. I have come to believe, Rich, that we are emotional beings that rationalize our lives with facts.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s true.Alvin Sanders — But there’s a lot of research out there that says we can think we’re rational all we want, but what we really do, we have never made a rational decision that does not agree with our emotions.Rich Birch — Right.Alvin Sanders — So we must take care of ourselves.Rich Birch — Yeah.Alvin Sanders — I was not taking care of myself emotionally.Rich Birch — Right.Alvin Sanders — Therefore, out of shape physically, neglecting family, which by the way, God says that’s the first ministry, you’re supposed to lead well. So if you’re not leading your family well, it really doesn’t matter what else you’re doing, you know. And just an emotional, just not emotionally regulated is the easiest way that I can say it. Didn’t know I wasn’t emotionally regulated, but I wasn’t.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, that’s good. You know, the Carey Nieuwhof, friend of mine, ah you know, he says around this whole that topic, he says, you know, if you’re an alcoholic and you stumble into work one day drunk, you know, you get fired, or you or there’s a consequence, right? If you are a gambler and you’re addicted to gambling and you know you lose your house, that’s gonna show up and you know you’re gonna lose your house, there’s consequence to that. And you know one of those might be you lose your job. Rich Birch — But this area of like overworking, if we overwork even in good things, you’re rewarded for it. Like, you’re like, way to go. You’re a good soldier.Alvin Sanders — Yeah. Yeah.Rich Birch — You know, there’s, it’s almost like a badge of honor in ministry to be exhausted for Jesus. When you said, man, I made work my worship, that stung because I was like, ooh, I think I’ve done that before.Alvin Sanders — Yeah. I mean…Rich Birch — So take us inside, you know, ah other leaders’, you know, heads. How does that mindset quietly quietly set us up for this crash? How do we, you know, kind of unpack that even more for us?Alvin Sanders — Yeah, I mean, I say all the time I’m a recovering work workaholic.Rich Birch — Right.Alvin Sanders — You know, that’s the way I put it.Alvin Sanders — And then a big thing that really set me up for this that I didn’t realize is that I come from a family of workaholics. You know, my father, who is my hero, other people have heroes outside of the household. My father is my hero. He’s 87 now, that’s my guy.Rich Birch — It’s so good. Yeah.Alvin Sanders — He, I grew up in a household, my father grew up in Jim Crow, Alabama. And he overcame so much. Rich Birch — Right. Incredible.Alvin Sanders — He went to when he joined the military, military was was sort of like a saving grace. He was in the military for 30 years. Rich Birch — Wow. Alvin Sanders — And he went to night school and he got two degrees in night school while working during the day.Rich Birch — Wow.Alvin Sanders — You know, my mom was an old farm was a was a farm girl, you know. Protestant work ethic. You know, you want she would say, son, you want to kill time, work it to death. You know, idle hands is the devil’s workshop. You know I grew up on all these idioms.Rich Birch — Yes, yes, yes.Alvin Sanders — And, and so that was in my DNA. And just by the fact that we live in United States of America, where busyness is a badge of honor, I believe you said, and we all are under the Protestant work ethic, you know, you know, who, what, what, what bum works only 40 hours.Alvin Sanders — I mean, you want to get ahead.Rich Birch — It’s true.Alvin Sanders — The minimum is 50.Rich Birch — Yeah. Right. Right.Alvin Sanders — You know, when I was pastoring, how many people in my congregation, you know, in terms of the white collar crew, you know, I had ah I had all spectrums in the church that I was in, I pastored. It was no big deal for them to just be gone all the time.Rich Birch — Right.Alvin Sanders — If you get offered a promotion, who would tell you don’t accept it for the sake of your family?Rich Birch — Right.Alvin Sanders — Of course I’m going to accept it. It’s more money… Rich Birch — Right. Alvin Sanders — …because more money puts us in a better position…or doesn’t it? Rich Birch — Right. Alvin Sanders — It might, or might not. So counterintuitive thinking is something that we have to do. I mean, I’m in a place now where um God has blessed me that I have a lot of opportunities and I limit my opportunities. Because I say if if I’m gone all the time again, guess what I’m on the road to? Rich Birch — Right.Alvin Sanders — You know, and we may have a little bit more money, but then, you know, I’m in the I’m in the empty nesthood stage of season of life and I’d be missing valuable time with my wife. So it’s a reordering of the priorities, you know? Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Alvin Sanders — Yeah.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. And this is one of those areas where I see hope in you know next generation. You know i see hope in Gen Z leaders. There there is, like I think, a healthy pushback on on some of this area, which is I think is positive. I know sometimes, you know, I’m Gen X, classic Gen X, born 1974, the lowest birth rate year of the 20th century.Alvin Sanders — Yes. Yeah.Rich Birch — And, you know, and I think sometimes, you know, my peers and particularly the folks older than me, that generation, they they really did, they handed down this idea. And you know, there’s good change happening, I think, on this front. Rich Birch — But so how do you think about this now? So, you know, as you’re thinking about the future, or maybe you’re coaching your team, people you’re interacting with, you know, how do you kind of articulate this, maybe with a framework or thinking around this, so that we don’t just pass on more burnt out organizations?Rich Birch — How how are you helping, you know, lead an organization? Because I think there’s the reason why asked that question is I think it can be easy for us folks that are in charge. I run my own organization. I like often joke, like my boss is a bit of a taskmaster because it’s me, you know. But you know, when, but when we’re the people in charge, we get to set the pace. We get to lead in a way. How are you leading different now? How are you helping your people understand this different now? What are, how are you, what’s that look like for you?Alvin Sanders — Yes. So we, we have baked in in the cake at World Impact. Um, three things, three areas. We talked, we touched on it before spiritual formation, you know, that’s a big deal here at World Impact.Alvin Sanders — You know, we, we really want to make sure that people understand your work is not your worship. You know, part of our sustainable strategy is, you know, we care more about who you are than what you do. And we mean that. Alvin Sanders — And it’s funny because when you first say that to some people, they go, oh well, you don’t want me to work. It’s like, no we didn’t say that. What we said is we understand you are a human being. And we care about you and we’re going to invest deeply in you as you invest deeply into our our our vision. And so um making sure that work’s not to worship, make sure that people understand our identity is in Christ. Alvin Sanders — Understanding also the the spiritual disciplines. We incorporate eight particular spiritual disciplines. I probably should know them the my head, but I don’t. But let me see, I mean, I can roll off the top of my head.Alvin Sanders — Let’s see, you got church membership. You know, we, we, and It’s not cool, you know, to be a church member and people love to kill the church and criticize the church and this that the other. But I leave that to the accuser of the brethren to use the KJV version and use that to the devil.Rich Birch — Nice.Alvin Sanders — Jesus came to establish the church. Period. End of discussion. So you ought to be part of one. So, you know, we encourage our folks to be part of churches, to fast, to pray.Alvin Sanders — We have three times a year we’ve shut everything down and we have prayer days. You know, we we encourage people to be generous with their money. We encourage people to empower others. You know, so there’s we we we encourage we have a personal retreat days that we offer people for for, it’s a work day, but it’s a different kind of structured work day. We say we’ll give you one day a month where you go off and you examine yourself. You do a spiritual examen off basically, you know, off the old St. Ignatius type of spiritual examen. And then you also look at your professional development. You go off and we do that and we’ll pay you for that.Rich Birch — Right. That’s great.Alvin Sanders — You know, so there are a number of things that we do in terms of developing a rhythm. We call, you know, having a rhythm. Rich Birch — That’s good.Alvin Sanders — You know, so a lot of spiritual formation. And then the other s is we look at the, you could think of these S’s as three S’s or a three-legged stool that serves the foundation and they’re all intertwined.Alvin Sanders — So besides spiritual formation, we also encourage people to engage stressors, right? We there’s there’s a way that you work in the world. There’s I got this from my friends at Praxis that there’s three ways that you can engage the world. You can engage the world um exploitatively, ethically or redemptively. Rich Birch — That’s good.Alvin Sanders — So we want people to we want our staff to engage the world, and engage their jobs in a redemptive manner, which is, you know, sacrificing our lives in the pattern of Jesus Christ. Right. That’s we follow the pattern of Jesus Christ, that that we are doing this in order to make the world a better place.Alvin Sanders — We also have a posture of that we’re not the saviors. Many people who are in ministry, we get in it for the right reasons, but then we think that we’re the king and not a subject of the kingdom. Right. And so we think that whatever ministry we’re in, whether it’s urban, suburban, whatever it may be, that we’re the saviors. It’s like, no no, no, no, that’s not the right posture. The right posture is that to be utilized by God, you know.Alvin Sanders — And then also anybody who’s been in ministry any any time in their life, any, you know, they are going to experience a lot of what’s called secondary trauma.Alvin Sanders — You know, like mine was very intense being in a very violent neighborhood and ministering there. But even in suburban context, there’s a lot of things. Now, Rich, don’t know if you ever experienced this, but, you know, people, the sheep bite. Rich Birch — True.Alvin Sanders — They talk about the pastor. Rich Birch — Yeah.Alvin Sanders — They do a lot of things. You know, you’re misinterpreted all the time. There’s a lot of hurtful things that happen to you… Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s true. Alvin Sanders — …from an emotional perspective. And if you if you try to blow them off or roll them under, you know, let them it’s water under the bridge. No, no, no. Those things need to be engaged. Alvin Sanders — So that’s keeping the right posture, making sure we keep the right pace in ministry. So we have one school of spiritual formation, one one one leg stool of engaging stressors. And then the third leg stool is is skill set development. Alvin Sanders — And we have to understand that developing the right skills will not save us from burnout. That’s a false dichotomy. People think, oh, well, if I just develop X, Y, and z well, then, you know, I won’t burn out. No. um There are three primary skill sets that I think people need to understand when it comes to any type of ministry or wherever they’re doing it. A big one is emotional intelligence.Alvin Sanders — It’s there’s a guy by name of Daniel Goldman who really popularized the concept. He wrote this book years and years ago called “Primal Leadership”. And that book makes the case that therere there are things that you can develop to emotionally regulate yourself.Alvin Sanders — There’s a book they they don’t call it emotional intelligence, but it’s another classic called “Leadership and Self-Deception”. It’s a classic book which teaches you how you can engage the workplace and and by emotionally regulating yourself, which I think is directly correlated to spiritual maturity.Rich Birch — True.Alvin Sanders — There’s also the skill set of leadership development. I believe that everybody is a leader, right? We don’t all have the same responsibilities as leaders, but there are things that we can do to develop ourselves to become better leaders in the situations that we find ourselves in. Alvin Sanders — And then there’s also a a skill set that we can develop where we engage our ministry context in a dignified manner. So that’s sort of like our three-legged stool at World Impact, you know, spiritual formation, engaging stressors and skill set. And you can’t, just like a stool, if you remove one of the legs…Rich Birch — Right.Alvin Sanders — …the stool will not work. So all three have to be intertwined and working together to give you that strong foundation. And if you do those things, I have found that, you know, you won’t touch burnout. Because… Rich Birch — Right. It’s so good. Alvin Sanders — Yeah. So I’m very, very focused on that. And we have interwoven all of those things within the DNA of World Impact.Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that.Alvin Sanders — Yeah, I love…Rich Birch — There’s there’s so much to unpack there, friends. And there’s, you know, in six minutes there, you gave us what a great picture of how we should be thinking and leading in our environments. I love, particularly, you know, you talked you touched on the emotional quotient, the eq issue.Rich Birch — And, um you know, I’ve had a a friend of mine say, you know, it’s it’s impossible to be spiritually mature if you’re emotionally immature. And I think…Alvin Sanders — One hundred percent.Rich Birch — I think that’s true. And there are, we all know these people who they they walk around like they’re spiritually mature, but they’re they’re, you know, emotionally immature and it comes off. It’s like they’re bleeding. It’s like the internet’s made for these people.Rich Birch — Like they are, those people get good followings, which is terrible. And you know, they get people around them who are just like, yes, sir. Yes, sir. It’s usually sirs. Unfortunately, it’s a lot of guys… Alvin Sanders — Yes. Rich Birch — …you know, we’ve got to fight that. And I love that you’re, you’re attempting to do that, you know, at, you know, in the organization you lead at World Impact, I think is, is incredible. And one of the things, you know, calling this out, I’m not directly engaged in urban ministry, but the thing I, I think is, like, I think every ministry has its stressors to it. Alvin Sanders — Yes.Rich Birch — I think every ministry has trauma related to it. And I think what you’ve outlined here, we can apply really in any context. Alvin Sanders — Yes.Rich Birch — But I do want to underline for our listeners, the fact that this has come out of a context where, again, I don’t want to stigmatize or create stereotypes around urban ministry, but there is a lot of trauma. There is a lot of stress in the ministry.Alvin Sanders — Yes. Rich Birch — You know When you’re dealing in communities that are experiencing homelessness and poverty and you know, you know at the conflict, at the you know the epicenter of racial conflict, and you know all ah all of that creates the context that makes it next to impossible to serve in. And the fact that you’re leading there, I just want to commend you you know on that. Alvin Sanders — Yes. Rich Birch — And so this is actually a part of, well, talk to me about the expanded second edition of “Redemptive Poverty Work” and how does that tie into what we’re talking about today? Because I want to move people even towards that call to action out of today’s conversation.Alvin Sanders — Yeah. So the the things that I’ve talked about that I just talked about that we instilled at World Impact, it definitely works in in any context, no doubt about it. What I tell my suburban colleagues is that whatever you experience in the suburbs, 10x it. And that’s in the urban context.Rich Birch — That makes sense. Okay, that’s good.Alvin Sanders — Just 10x it. It’s not that you don’t experience these things.Rich Birch — Right.Alvin Sanders — It’s that it’s much more intense…Rich Birch — Yeah.Alvin Sanders — …within the urban context.Rich Birch — Yeah.Alvin Sanders — So the expanded edition of “Redemptive Poverty Work” is is my attempt to really have our vision at World Impact come to fruition. Because at World Impact, if our vision is a healthy church in every community experiencing poverty, we cannot not talk about burnout.Alvin Sanders — Because the burnout rate within the urban context, because of the 10X that happens down there in in this in the urban community—but increasingly in suburban communities, to be quite honest with you. The same dynamics are happening in certain suburban communities—is that you have to be able to deal with it. And the big way that you deal with it is that you are intentionally engaging those things that can cause you to burn out.Rich Birch — That’s good. Alvin Sanders — Cause you cannot have a healthy church unless you have spiritually formed pastors who are engaging stressors and who are developing the skillset to make the community a better place.Alvin Sanders — So, It was basically by doing things in the field and spending a lot of time with our partners that I said, you know what, these folk need an expansion. Because when I wrote “Redemptive Poverty Work” a couple of years ago that we talked about, it was a little booklet and it was more academic.Rich Birch — Right.Alvin Sanders — But what I realized is, hey, these folk need to know how to implement this in a practical sense. So that’s what the expanded version is about. It’s not only teaching you the principle, it’s like, here here’s how you can apply this to your life. It’s sort of like a field handbook, so to speak.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s fantastic. I think it’d be great for people to pick up, you know, a copy of this. And, you know, I think it could be really helpful for them as they’re thinking about, you know, ministry in any context. Even to help if there are folks that are listening in, you know, that serve in a suburban context and they’re trying to gain, you know, a bit more understanding of there are urban, but you know, brothers and sisters as they’re, you know, leading there. I think this could be a helpful resource.Rich Birch — For folks that picked up the first edition, you know, should they pick pick up a second? I know you’re not just trying to sell books, but like, help me understand, you know, obviously you’ve added a lot to it. For folks that are familiar with your work, what would your, you know, kind of what’s your recommendation that, you know, for them?Alvin Sanders — Yes, because the the first Redemptive Poverty Work booklet is really only one chapter in the expanded edition. It’s, as I said earlier, it’s really about how to apply and how not to burn out.Rich Birch — That’s great.Alvin Sanders — The whole thing is it assumes that there’s a point in your walk in doing your work of the ministry that you’re going you’re going to hit a wallRich Birch — Yep.Alvin Sanders — I don’t know anyone in ministry, let alone urban ministry, who hasn’t at some point hit a wall.Rich Birch — Right.Alvin Sanders — Right. To go back to sports analogy. Right. Talk about how if you’re a rookie and you’re coming into the and NBA, you only play like 40 or some college games. NBA has 82 games. No matter how skilled you are, no matter how much you play, about game 50, you’re going to hit a wall because you’ve never really played at that intense level for that long.Rich Birch — Yep.Alvin Sanders — Same thing with ministry.Alvin Sanders — At some point, you’re going to hit a wall. So within this urban context, you know when you hit that wall or hopefully before you hit the wall, read this book and begin to implement it in your life. It’s a failure for you just to buy the book and read it. Rich Birch — Yes.Alvin Sanders — A lot of books you just write, you buy it and you read it and you go, oh, I got the knowledge. I’m good. No, this book is like, read it and apply it. And I can tell you, it’ll work if you do so.Rich Birch — That’s so good. Where do we want to send people to pick up copies of the book? Where online? you know how how can they How can they get their hands on it?Alvin Sanders — Yeah, just go to Amazon. you can get it off of Amazon. Redemptive Poverty Work Expanded Edition. Rich Birch — That’s great.Alvin Sanders — You type that in or you can type in Alvin Sanders and I’m sure it’ll pop up. Rich Birch — That’s great. Alvin Sanders — Yeah, we’d we’d love for you to get it. You know, got paperback and hardback versions that are there. Rich Birch — Nice.Alvin Sanders — And then you can also go on YouTube. We just had it. We launched it last week. We had a webinar… Rich Birch — Great. Alvin Sanders — …around the topic of redemptive poverty work. It was about an hour long. So if you’re really interested in this topic, you can check that webinar out as well.Rich Birch — Nice. Yeah, we’ll link to that in the show notes to make it even easier for folks to to find that. We’d love for for people to track with you, Alvin. You’re doing such a great, great work. So let’s take us back to 2007.Rich Birch — Let’s say there’s a leader who’s listening into, well, I know that there’s a leader who’s listening in today. There’s at least one… Alvin Sanders — Yeah. Rich Birch — …in the couple thousand people that are listening in who are heading towards where you were in 2007. Not the new part, not the new job part, but the like, oh, I’m burnt out.Alvin Sanders — Yes.Rich Birch — This is not good. Maybe today they’ve been listening in and they realize, oh, wait a second. Maybe they had a similar thing with their kid. Hey, dad. Hey, mom. Why are you here? What’s one thing you’d want them to do this week? What’s one action step that they could take coming out of today’s conversation? Alvin Sanders — Well, I would say, I’m going to cheat. I’m going to give you more than one. But first is to admit where you’re at.Rich Birch — That’s good.Alvin Sanders — Because there are so I hate to say it. There are some faith traditions where it’s downright almost sinful to admit that you might be burned out. What? You don’t you don’t pray enough. You don’t do this. You don’t do that. Say, you know what? I’m tired. I’m still committed, but I’m tired. I’m jaded. I’m whatever. So the first thing is to embrace that. Alvin Sanders — The second thing is, you know, get some rest. You might it might just be an Elijah situation. You know, Elijah wanted to die and God said, no, man, just just go lay down.Rich Birch — Yeah, have a nap.Alvin Sanders — You know, you just had a really, really intense situation. Go lay down. Take some time. Go take a nap. Get some refreshment. Get some food. Look at your schedule and say, am I actually taking at least one day a week off? You know, are what’s your rhythm of rest, right? Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Alvin Sanders — Are you resting as hard as you’re working?Rich Birch — That’s good.Alvin Sanders — Are you taking vacation? You know, or is vacation for the weak, right? Are you taking your paid holidays off? Do, actually really start to take the commandment of Sabbath seriously… Rich Birch — That’s good. Alvin Sanders — …and actually start to rest?Alvin Sanders — And then there are some of us, and, you know, and there’s nothing wrong with this either. We may be too far gone, and we may need to take some time to go see a counselor, and to unpack things. Rich Birch — That’s good. Alvin Sanders — And to unpack some emotional wounds and things of that nature. So I would say, you know, first, acknowledge where you’re at. Second, actually start to rest. And then third, if these things aren’t really working, don’t be prideful. Go see a mental health counselor.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Alvin, you’ve been a gift again to our audience. Thank you so much for for being here today, for helping us think through these issues and take some steps. If people want to track with you or with World Impact, where do we want to send them online?Alvin Sanders — Well, if you want to track with me, you know, as a good Gen Xer like you, I’m on LinkedIn. So you just place to find me.Rich Birch — Love it. Love it.Alvin Sanders — It’s LinkedIn. Find me on LinkedIn. I have an Instagram account. I ain’t been on that Instagram account in forever. So, you know, that’s just not me. But you can find me on LinkedIn.Rich Birch — Love it.Alvin Sanders — If you want to personally interact, talk, whatever. Great thing to do on LinkedIn. And then the other thing is go to worldimpact.org and you can learn a lot more about World Impact and what we do.Alvin Sanders — We’d love to serve you.Rich Birch — That’s great. Thanks so much for being here today. I really appreciate you taking some time to be with us.Alvin Sanders — All right. Thanks for having me. 

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Dave Ferguson, co-founder of Exponential, co-founder of Community Christian Church, and author of Multiplier: How Healthy Leaders Create Lasting Impact. For decades, Dave has championed one central conviction: the Church will never fulfill its mission through addition alone. In this conversation, he challenges church leaders to rethink success, embrace multiplication, and cultivate the kind of personal health that sustains lasting kingdom impact. Are you building a church that grows, or a movement that multiplies? Wondering how your leadership today shapes generations of ministry tomorrow? Dave offers a compelling vision for creating influence that extends far beyond your own church. Multiplication changes everything. // Dave believes many church leaders are asking the wrong question. Instead of waking up each day asking, “How can I grow my church?” he challenges leaders to ask, “How can we multiply God’s Kingdom?” That subtle shift transforms every leadership decision, from staffing and budgeting to leadership development and church planting. Growth focuses on adding people to one church. Multiplication focuses on reproducing disciples, leaders, churches, and networks that reach beyond one church long after the original leader steps away. The Church needs a new scorecard. // Only a small percentage of churches in the United States are actively reproducing new churches. Through Exponential’s “16% Mission,” the goal is to move enough churches toward multiplication that reproducing churches become the cultural norm rather than the exception. Reaching this tipping point would fundamentally reshape how churches think about mission and influence. Culture beats strategy every time. // Multiplication doesn’t begin with a sermon series or a strategic initiative—it begins with culture. Dave encourages leaders to model multiplication long before they publicly announce it. Whether leading a small group, mentoring an apprentice, or developing future leaders, pastors must demonstrate the behaviors they hope to reproduce. People adopt what leaders consistently practice far more readily than what they merely promote. Health fuels multiplication—not hustle. // While multiplication requires intentional effort, Dave warns against building ministry on relentless hustle. Instead, healthy multiplication grows out of healthy leaders. Churches don’t simply reproduce strategies. They reproduce the character, priorities, and habits of their leaders. If leaders neglect their own well-being, they will unintentionally reproduce that same dysfunction throughout the organization. Watch the four gauges. // At the heart of Dave’s new book, Multiplier: How Healthy Leaders Create Lasting Impact, is a simple daily framework for preventing leadership drift. He encourages leaders to evaluate four areas every day: relational health, physical health, mental health, and spiritual health. By honestly assessing these four “gauges,” leaders can recognize unhealthy patterns before they become major failures. Rather than waking up years later wondering how they drifted so far, leaders make small course corrections every day. Even better, Dave encourages processing these areas with trusted community, since accountability helps combat self-deception. Think beyond your lifetime. // Ultimately, Dave invites leaders to adopt a longer horizon for ministry. Buildings, attendance, and personal accomplishments eventually fade, but investing in people creates lasting kingdom influence. When leaders intentionally multiply healthy disciples and healthy leaders, their ministry continues bearing fruit long after they’re gone. That, Dave believes, is the kind of legacy worth pursuing. To learn more about Dave Ferguson, Exponential, and his new book Multiplier: How Healthy Leaders Create Lasting Impact, visit exponential.org/multiplier or daveferguson.org. Email Dave directly to get bulk copies of his book. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. You’re in for a real treat today. Today is a leader, you know, you have those leaders in your life. You’re like, man, I wish everybody could be exposed to this person and would follow along. And you feel like you’re introducing a friend to friends. That’s what today’s conversation is. And I hope at the same time, it’ll challenge you and encourage you as we think about the future. Rich Birch — Excited to have Dave Ferguson back on the podcast from Exponential. It is a growing community of leaders committed to accelerating multiplication of healthy, reproducing faith communities. They equip multipliers through a variety of resources. You might know their big event, Exponential, but that’s not all they do. They do a lot of other stuff as well.Rich Birch — Dave also was the co-founder of Community Christian in Chicagoland and New Thing. We actually had Ted on recently for a follow-up episode, which is fantastic. So these will this will come out at a similar time. Dave also wrote a book recently that I want you to pick up. It’s called Multiplier: How Healthy Leaders Create Lasting Impact. Dave, welcome to the show.Dave Ferguson — Hey, thanks, Rich. Good to be with you. Rich Birch — Yeah, so glad you’re you’re here. Why don’t you fill in the story for folks that don’t know or maybe aren’t following along. Maybe give us fill out the bio a little bit. Tell us a little bit about your background.Dave Ferguson — Long story short yeah, in my early mid-20s I planted a church in Chicago with a whole bunch of friends. God was very very kind to it; it grew had pretty large, and we had locations across the city and the suburbs. Out of that, then we started planting churches. Our first one was in Denver, then Southern California, and then Detroit, then New York, then Boston. And pretty soon we made a shift that we went from not only reproducing new churches, but helping reproduce networks of new churches. And that turned out to be a bigger deal than and we realized.Dave Ferguson — And we got opportunities then to do that in Europe and then in Africa. And next thing you know, fast forward 15, 20 years, and we were in 69 countries. And this will sound better than it is, but we got to help plant over 35,000 churches. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s incredible. Dave Ferguson — And at the same time, we also started Exponential. And so all three of those things had seemed to have God’s favor on it, grew. And in the last year, I apprenticed a new lead pastor, Ted Coniaris, that you referenced, who is, I guess, recently on the podcast… Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Dave Ferguson — …and who’s doing a great job at Community.Dave Ferguson — And then then on top of that, we moved New Thing underneath Exponential. So Exponential actually acquired New Thing. And for us, that feels really good. It was pretty, pretty easy transition, but feels really good because we have something we call the 16% mission that we’re going after. And it’s starting to feel actually achievable now. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so cool. Dave Ferguson — So I think I think that’s all that’s all the things.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s that’s it. Just that’s it. Yeah, that’s amazing. It’s so good. And, you know, there’s a lot I respect about you and your leadership. But one of the core things I love is you’ve really given your life to multiplication. You’re focused on this idea, helping us think about and then really in the best sort of way, poking and prodding and pushing us to come back to this idea. Rich Birch — I think for many of us, the word multiplication is the kind of thing we can hear it so many times. We can kind of tune it out or it like, what does that actually mean? Aren’t we all committed to multiplication? Isn’t it, isn’t that just what it means? So why does it still matter to the church today? Really lay it on thick here. Why is multiplication such a big deal?Dave Ferguson — Yeah. I mean, two things real quick. I mean, one for every one of your listeners, if they’re involved in ministry, I mean, they want, they they’re trading their life and they want to make the greatest impact they can. And I’m telling you, when you don’t invest in multiplication, you’re short selling yourself. You’re not going to, you’re not going to get to make the kind of impact that God intended for you to, or you possibly could.Dave Ferguson — So, I mean, Let me give you a quick example, so it becomes real tangible.Dave Ferguson — So two weeks ago, I was in Long Beach, California, and I ran into Matt Larson. Matt’s a guy who did a leadership residency with us probably, man, it’s been a long time ago now, 15 years ago. So he basically came, spent a year with us at Community, really sharp leader, but he didn’t really understand how to multiply. And we kind of helped him understand how to do that. Dave Ferguson — So he does that, goes back to Ventura, California, plants Anthem Church, and they’ve planted 15 churches. Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. Dave Ferguson — So think about this and this this. And I don’t know how you keep score, but this is how I keep score with my own, how am I making a difference?Rich Birch — Yes.Dave Ferguson — So like even like if I’m taking a day off in Chicago… Rich Birch — Right. Dave Ferguson — …Matt’s still working in Ventura, California, and he’s planting churches. Rich Birch — Right. Amazing.Dave Ferguson — And I, you know, you’ve heard me probably say like my favorite quote from Bob Buford, my fruit grows in other people’s trees.Dave Ferguson — That’s what multiplication does. Rich Birch — So good.Dave Ferguson — Instead of just having one tree, you get a whole orchard. Dave Ferguson — Or Troy McMahon, who’s one of my best friends.Dave Ferguson — My wife’s getting ready to go to Kansas City to see his wife in just a few hours here.Dave Ferguson — And I mean, again, probably 15 years ago, they took 25 people who moved from Chicago to Kansas City. We blessed them and sent them with some money. They’ve gone to multiple locations.Dave Ferguson — They’ve started four networks there in Kansas City and have probably planted somewhere between 60 and 70 churches.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s amazing.Dave Ferguson — I mean, again, if I can say it this way, like I count that.Rich Birch — Yes, yes.Dave Ferguson — I’m just telling people. So if you just want to kind of focus on just your thing, you will never, ever make the kind of impact you can if you invest in multiplication of multiplying other leaders.Rich Birch — Yeah. Dave Ferguson — And the other thing, so one, it’s in your best interest because you got this game not to make money. None of us are making any money, right?Rich Birch — Right. Sure. Yes, yes.Dave Ferguson — You got this game because you’re like, this is the best way I can make a difference. And if you’re not doing multiplication, you’re short selling yourself.Dave Ferguson — But let me add one more thing.Rich Birch — Yep.Dave Ferguson — It’s also how the mission gets accomplished. I mean, if you went into Acts 1:8, Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, ends of the earth, and Jesus said, okay, here four more guys.Dave Ferguson — Last time, before I leave, i want to shoot here’s here’s the mission, Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, ends of the earth. The only way that that’s going to happen is if there’s a movement, and movement does not happen unless there’s multiplication.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Yeah, and there’s, ah you know, one of the things I appreciate about kind of the the you and the broader exponential movement, I think you’ve helped really sharpen this conversation, tighten this up and get clarity for us, which I think is is positive.Rich Birch — And, you know, I bump into a lot of churches that are struggling, a lot of teams that are struggling with getting their their staff to be Ephesians 4 type people, people that are equipping others, that are multiplying others, that they, and there’s an interesting connection between these two, right? Somewhere we thought, oh, you could reach a bunch of people, but not actually equip anyone, which is so strange, right? It’s a strange, and actually there’s only a tiny fraction of churches that are actually multiplying today.Rich Birch — Most are only doing addition. I think this this thinking is one of the ways I think you’ve helped us sharpen this up. Why do you think that math is so stuck and kind of unpack that, help us understand, you know, the kind of the problem we’re trying to attack here.Dave Ferguson — Yeah. I think one of the things you’re referencing, so I casually talked about the 16% mission. Let me back up.Dave Ferguson — We want to see 16%, and I know your audience is bigger than the United States, but in the U.S., that’s where our exponential U.S.’s focus is. We want to see 16% of all churches in the U.S. become reproducing or multiplying churches. And that means that they’ve ever planted a church in the last three years.Dave Ferguson — When we first did the homework on this, it’s only about 4%. Now we’ve moved the needle in the last 10 years to 7%. Rich Birch — Amazing.Dave Ferguson — We think in the next five years, we can get to 10%. In the next 10 years, we can get to 16%. And 16% is kind of that tipping point. Where the of that tipping point, you get the right innovators and early adopters. They will convince the whole that this should be normative.Dave Ferguson — And that’s what we’re trying to do. So with that in mind, you’re right. So we’re still only at 7%. And I think the biggest… we’re stuck we’re stuck in an existing paradigm. We’re like fish swimming in water that um we think the best that we can do is grow a church. And I And I think candidly, here’s how I’d frame it up. I think most leaders wake up every morning asking the question, how can can grow my church?Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — How can I grow my church? And that’s a good question, but it’s not a great question. It’s not an Acts 1:8 question.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Dave Ferguson — It’s not the kind of question going allow you to maximize your impact, you know, where you’re sleeping in on a Saturday you’ve got a guy in Kansas City and you’ve got a guy in Southern California who’s planting churches. Okay.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Dave Ferguson — A better question is how do we multiply God’s kingdom? Rich Birch — So good.Dave Ferguson — And if and if we could get if we could get leaders to wake up every morning asking that question. Okay, and again, I and versus we, because it’s going to take us working together, not just grow, like addition, but actually multiply, multiplication, and not just my church, but actually God’s kingdom.Dave Ferguson — I mean, it’s going to make a huge difference in the kingdom. And I think, so when you get stuck in that kind of addition, like how do I grow my church, it impacts decisions you make about money… Rich Birch — Yep. Dave Ferguson — …because you’re going to go, oh, I need to keep that here. So we can you know add another you know and add another wing to our building versus like, oh, guess what? Maybe if I so if i sent that money to you know this church plant, it’s going to result in 70 churches in Kansas City.Dave Ferguson — I mean, it’s highly leveraged like venture spiritual venture capital is what it is. Rich Birch — Yeah. Dave Ferguson — It implements the decisions we make about staff. You know, we want to hold on to our best staff instead of developing them. And then some of them who actually have the capability of starting other churches and even networks, blessing them and sending them out and going like, yeah, I’m a spiritual father and these are my kids. I’m cheering them on. Dave Ferguson — So I think that’s that’s, we’re kind of stuck in this paradigm and it’s not a biblical one, but it is a paradigm that we’re stuck in.Rich Birch — Yeah. I love that. And, you know, I’ve similarly been with a lot of leadership teams where we’re in the kind of growth conversation. And I’ll come at that from ah kind of the almost the opposite end, but you end in the same place, which you end up saying, like, this box is not big enough to contain the number of people that your church is hoping to reach.Rich Birch — Like we can’t build a box big enough to do that.Rich Birch — I don’t care how much money, I don’t care how good you are at fundraising, you can’t do that. So we have to multiply. If you really think that we are trying to reach and make an impact in our community, if there’s so many churches say, we’re for whatever city we’re in, we’re for Chicago, we’re for whatever.Rich Birch — If you’re really for that, then you have to be by definition for multiplication and for other churches and for seeing, you know, this thing multiplying out. We can’t, we can’t get them all to come here. That’s never going to work. That’s just, it doesn’t work at all.Dave Ferguson — And here’s thing you can, though, do. I mean, you’re right. If it’s just about their butts in your seats, whatever. But if it’s about you bringing them and equipping them and then sending them out, oh, that’s highly leveraged. And that could be a really good use of a building or facility.Rich Birch — Right, right. Yeah, absolutely. That’s good. So, so much of this conversation, you know, I want to tap in your expertise. We’ve got a lot of lot of executive pastors listening in. You know, you have been in the one of the multiple seats you’ve sat in has been the kind of lead pastor seat. And let’s talk to some XPs from your perspective as as a you know a lead pastor around this area.Dave Ferguson — Oh, good. Those are the people actually the stuff done. They’re not just the top. These are the executors.Rich Birch — But let’s let’s think that through. So vision isn’t just about getting up on Sunday and preaching about it. You’ve actually led organizations that have done this stuff. And you know you’ve you’ve cast a compelling vision, but then have seen the organizations actually go out and make this stuff happen. So we think about it from our seat as an executive pastor. What is the executive pastor? Where do we actually come into play in this thing? What’s our piece of the puzzle? How can we help kind of move this thing forward at an operational level? You you named a couple of things, money, staffing. Help us think through that.Dave Ferguson — and And the assumption here is, okay, so the lead pastor is pro-multiplication, and now you have to execute the vision.Rich Birch — Yeah.Dave Ferguson — I I think one of the things, grab a hold of how do we create ah a multiplication culture? Because if you can create a multiplication in culture, you will literally become, people in your church will become unconsciously competent.Dave Ferguson — I’m thinking of a real quick story. A friend of mine named Doug. Doug was a guy who was nominally involved at Community. All right. Long story short, only because his wife insisted he joined a small group that Sue and I were leading. Now I didn’t have an apprentice leader in that small group, which is which is not good, okay? That’s how you don’t create a culture.Dave Ferguson — But we went through six weeks and I went up to Doug and I said, I told him, I said, hey… And actually said in front of the whole group because he’s the kind of guy I could do this to. I said, hey, I know this group would like to continue, but we can’t continue unless we have an apprentice leader.Rich Birch — Nice.Dave Ferguson — And I said, Doug, will you be my apprentice leader?Rich Birch — That’s great. Dave Ferguson — He’s kind of like you. Rich Birch — Yeah. Dave Ferguson — Big guy with a bald head. Beads his sweat or popping on top of his head. He says, all right, I’ll do it, I’ll do it, I’ll do it. Rich Birch — Right. Dave Ferguson — So he he agrees to be my apprentice leader. So I start meeting with him because the group was on Wednesdays. I’d meet with him on Tuesdays at Starbucks around 4 o’clock as he’d finish up work. And we’d kind of…And I remember his first question to me was like, hey, so if I’m going to be an apprentice leader, I should read the Bible, I guess, right?Dave Ferguson — I’m like, yeah, you probably should.Rich Birch — Yes, it’s a good starting point.Dave Ferguson — And so I told him how I how I do it. But over the course of the next 14 months or so, um you know, I basically apprenticed him through what we call the the five steps.Dave Ferguson — And here’s here’s the fun part of this story. OK, so Doug didn’t have much of a church background.Dave Ferguson — So he gets to the place where he thinks he’s ready to lead a group. And I think he’s ready, which people ask me a lot. how do you know when a leader is ready? I think it’s really that it’s that simple when they think they’re ready and you think they’re ready, they’re ready. And so I said, okay, why don’t you take over this group? It’ll be easy for me to go start a new group. You take… And he he said, okay. Dave Ferguson — I come back, like two or three weeks later, to Starbucks on Tuesday at 4 o’clock, sitting at the exact same table where we would always sit was Doug and his brand new apprentice, Tim.Rich Birch — Love it.Dave Ferguson — And so Doug was like unconsciously competent. He was like, oh, I thought I thought every church in America did that. I thought that’s how it works. I didn’t know I had a choice.Rich Birch — Yes, yes.Dave Ferguson — And if you create a culture of multiplication, that’s what will happen over and over and over again.Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. Well, and and yeah, what a vivid picture. And, you know, we’ve got to move our our people and our systems towards, you know, continuing to multiply at every level. When you think about a church that’s stuck and it maybe is is just focusing on addition. They’re really in that, but they they have a desire to want to multiply.Rich Birch — Is your recommendation, or maybe what you’ve seen happen, the churches that have actually made that pivot towards multiplication, is it like a ground up thing? Like we start with, man, we’ve got to get all of our, you know, all of our team leaders get an apprentice, let’s go there. And then we’ll trickle up through the organization, which then leads to the conclusion. Oh, by the way, we’re going to have to, we’re going to multiply because we’ve kind of built this culture.Rich Birch — Or, is it better to go or or maybe there’s advantages to go one way or the other from the kind of the, hey, we’re going to declare this and that’s going to kind of pull us towards multiplication. Do you understand what I’m saying? Ground up or we cast a vision to pull towards it.Dave Ferguson — Yeah. And creating the culture.Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. In creating the culture, yeah.Dave Ferguson — If you haven’t, if you, if you don’t currently have that kind of culture, here’s what I would encourage leaders to do. I do think it does start at the top with like the lead pastor and the executive pastor.Dave Ferguson — And I encourage leaders at every level. I said, lead at the smallest level of your organization and lead at the largest level and you train and trust everybody in between.Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. That’s good.Dave Ferguson — You want, and so for, I mean, all, whatever it was, 30 some years at Community, I always led a small group and I tried to always have an apprentice leader. So you need to do that.Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — And if you can get, okay. And I think there was a moment where you declare, Hey, this is who we are. And you need to decide if you want to buy in or not. You’re firm, but kind about that. Rich Birch — Yep.Dave Ferguson — And if you can get all of your staff, plus all the people that you consider as leaders and key influencers, which is probably somewhere around 16 to 20% of your total church. You get them bought into it.Dave Ferguson — Once you get them bought into it, and it’ll probably take you a year and they’re actually doing this stuff. Then you preach a sermon on it. Then you start casting vision on it. Then you declare it for the whole, because what will happen is that, again, kind of back to that innovators and early adopters. When they’re in the lobby and somebody comes them and goes like, hey, what do you think about this idea of apprenticeship? And we’re all going to have apprentices or multiply. They’ll already have been done it. They’ll have done it for a year.Dave Ferguson — And they’ll be like, oh, yeah, I think this is awesome. And that’s exactly what you want.Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — Does that make sense? Rich Birch — Yeah, it makes total sense. Yeah. And even what you’re doing.Dave Ferguson — I guess I’m questioning if you’re ready to make that shift, I wouldn’t preach a sermon on it first, because what they’re going to do is if you’re preaching a sermon on it and you’re not doing this stuff, what happens is you implicitly and almost accidentally create a culture that says, oh, I don’t actually have to do this stuff because the guy who’s casting the vision only talks about it and doesn’t actually do it. And so you create that culture, which is what we have a lot of.Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, I for sure I’ve seen a lot of that in, you know, in the churches I’ve been a part of, even with stuff like ah the fact that you, you know, were leading in a group, you know, I’ve I’ve seen a number, not necessarily the lead pastors I’ve worked for, but in churches where there’s like the lead pastor, they like elevate themselves out of that kind of thing. And they’re like Oh, I don’t need to interact with normal people. And, and that comes out, you know, I’ve, cause I’ve said it all the time to lead pastors. I’m like, even simply like, I would way rather you that just leak out of you that you’re, that you’re apprenticing a leader in a small group.Rich Birch — Then, then we have some big thing on why apprenticing is important because people will catch the the small little things, the little breadcrumbs here and there. They’ll catch that at a more powerful level than the big, let’s put a, let’s get a brand name, stick it on a wall, you know, kind of thing. That’s cool. That’s great.Dave Ferguson — It’ll but end up in your sermons, it’ll end sidebars, hallway conversations. Here’s one of my favorite examples. You know, Nicky Gumbel, right?Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.Dave Ferguson — So Nicky’s the guy who previously was the vicar at Holy Trinity Brompton. He was really the guy who kind of really brought out Alpha… Rich Birch — Yeah. Dave Ferguson — …which you might say is, I mean, right there with Billy Graham and the Apostle Paul… Rich Birch — Yeah, Oh, absolutely. 100%. Dave Ferguson — …greatest evangelistic tools that we’ve ever had.Rich Birch — Yes. 100%.Dave Ferguson — One of the things I love about Nicky is I don’t know how exactly how many years, it’s probably been 40 years. Every semester for 40 years, he always leads an Alpha course.Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.Dave Ferguson — There’s a reason they have such a strong culture and so powerful. Rich Birch — Yes.Dave Ferguson — And that’s a big mistake. I mean, I think as, you know, we’ve planted church and starts to grow. And we’re trying to figure out, what can I do and what shouldn’t I do? And one of the first things that goes, oh well, I just won’t lead a small group anymore. I won’t lead a missional community anymore. Whatever is that smallest organizing principle is, you want to hold on to that. Train and trust everybody else to do everything in between. Rich Birch — That’s very good.Dave Ferguson — And as you continue to grow and scale, yeah, influence way out there. But but Ii’ll hold on to this too.Rich Birch — Yeah, continuing to shout out Nikki, I just think the world of Alpha… Dave Ferguson — I do too. Rich Birch — …and it’s been so effective for our our church. And I had an opportunity to interact with him right in the teeth of COVID. I was doing an interview with him. And he, we were talking about some stuff and i it really marked, it was one of those like you lean forward and you’re like, okay, that’s interesting.Rich Birch — He was talking about how he’s like, you know, for years, the meal is a big deal for for Alpha and like, you know, hospitality is a big deal for that. And he said, I was always critical of people that did Alpha online. He’s like, I was always critical of people doing it over Zoom and was like, I would say you can’t do it over Zoom. You can’t do it over Zoom.Rich Birch — And he said, obviously people did it over Zoom and I wasn’t stopping them, but I was, I poo-pooed it. Well, then well then COVID came. And he said exactly what you said. I’m still leading alpha courses and our Apha groups. And so I’m in an Alpha group. And what do you know? This is amazing. God works through this. Rich Birch — And so I was really struck by that, that he as a leader would have the humility to say, hey, I was wrong, but I’m enough in the weeds of this thing to understand, okay, what are the actual implications for our ministry? I think that’s a huge lesson for us to pull away.Dave Ferguson — Well, I mean, two things…Rich Birch — And yeah, I think it’s 35 million people they put through that. Yeah.Dave Ferguson — My thought is two things. One, is I remember that podcast. So thank you very much. I remember going, listening to him. And and and excuse me. And it shaped a lot of the ways I even thought about COVID from hearing from him on that.Dave Ferguson — But I think I think this the second thing is, I think what you were kind of replying to, you have to be in the weeds… Rich Birch — Yes. Dave Ferguson — …in order to know how the next innovation is going to happen. I mean, if if he wasn’t doing that, he would have kept with his assumption, no, it’s not going to work and maybe made a lot of bad choices.Rich Birch — Right, right. And we would end up in ah yeah and a very tough spot today. In a lot of ways, that that ministry continues to accelerate… Dave Ferguson — Oh, yeah. Rich Birch — …or that movement really continues to accelerate ah you know in these years, which is amazing.Rich Birch — So one of the things let’s talk about, so one of the things I’ve heard you say is that you really build the case that multiplication has to be built on health, not on hustle. And you know there was a previous generation that was really valued like we wanted leaders. We didn’t want leaders that were burnt out, but we wanted them one step back from being burnt out. We wanted them like right there, right at the line. But what, you know, but I know that’s not what you’re advocating for. But it but I think sometimes our teams, our people, our cultures can look at this and say, this feels like one more thing to do.Rich Birch — So what why does this distinction of health, not hustle, how does that factor in when we’re thinking about actually trying to become a multiplying organization when we’re, you know, we’ve got lots of other stuff to carry as we’re thinking about it. Help us understand that.Dave Ferguson — My experience, particularly working with church planters and other leaders, is they aren’t afraid to hustle. Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — And in fact, that’s our default position, that I that I will I can maybe outwork the next person. And they’re willing to do it for it for a good cause. But even though we are willing to that, it actually gives us the wrong result. Because if we only hustle more, if only work more, you’re not going to make the impact you could, like I’ve already described, if you’re multiplying more. So I am constantly encouraging leaders, don’t work more, multiply more. Don’t work more, multiply more. And that’s how you make the biggest impact. Dave Ferguson — The other part of that, which is really important, I kind of have a conviction. We knew that we need to try to do the Jesus mission the Jesus way.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Dave Ferguson — We want to do the Jesus mission, the Jesus way. And I think that has to do with, no, I’m going to try to i’m gonna try to be a great dad. I want to try to be a great husband. I want to try to be a good steward of this body that I have. I want to pay attention to what my thought life, I want to pay attention to my anxiety and and and and levels and and am I feeling depressed? I want to make sure I’m okay spiritually.Dave Ferguson — And I think if we’re doing those kinds of things, we’re checking what I call these four gauges, I think will be healthy leaders.Dave Ferguson — And here’s the axiom that I have kind of led by, especially over the last couple decades, is that you will reproduce who you are and what you do.Rich Birch — Yes. Right.Dave Ferguson — So if if if you want to reproduce unhealth, then be unhealthy. But like if you really want, if you want the, if you want the, the guys in your church to be really good dads. You don’t have to be a perfect dad, but just put in the effort and let them know that you’re also putting in the effort.Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — If you want to be a you want people to be you know really good spouses, then try to be that yourself. Because you’re going to reproduce who you are and what you do.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I really appreciate that you’re you know that you’re pressing on these issues. I think this is a a critical thing you know for us, and particularly as we, you know I’m in a phase of my ministry where looking on to like, okay, how am I handing this stuff off?Rich Birch — What am I doing to try to help the next generation? And man, I would love the next generation to, I think one of the things that particularly Gen Z leaders are attuned to is they seem to be naturally attuned to like, we’re not going to like drive over a cliff for this thing. We want to do this in a healthy manner. Rich Birch — And and you’re not obviously, you know, you’re highly productive. You get a lot done and Exponential is a highly productive organization. You do a lot. But we want to do it—I like that—you were saying, you know, the Jesus mission, in the Jesus way. That’s actually at the heart of your most recent book Multiplier. Rich Birch — You talk, you kind of referenced these four gauges. Can you unpack that a little bit more at a high level? Help us understand what are the four gauges? And what were you hoping with this book? Why, why another book? Why is this one? What are you hoping this accomplishes for churches?Dave Ferguson — I think there’s a lot of great content out there about personal health, emotional health, how to have a rule of life, that kind of stuff. And we and we need to avail ourselves to it. I think there’s also a lot of great stuff and some of it that I’ve helped contribute to around how do you multiply? How do you you know develop leaders? How do you hero making? All that kind of stuff.Dave Ferguson — What I tried to do in this book though is show how those are so interconnected. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Dave Ferguson — That if you really want to do this for a long time, and that’s how you make the biggest impact, it’s only going to come if you’re a healthy leader, because again, you reproduce who you are.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Dave Ferguson — And so what we do is we kind of, we, we, we talk about the problem and the problem that all of us face, in the first couple of chapters, is what I call drift.Dave Ferguson — And we drift because…maybe frame it this way. I’ve never had a conversation with a young leader who tells me, hey, 15 years from now, here’s my dream: I hope I’m 50 pounds overweight and divorced and compromising my core convictions.Rich Birch — That’s so true.Dave Ferguson — I’ve never had that conversation. Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — But we read about it almost every week. And I sometimes share the story. I mean, I was in a small group with some of the most influential pastors, maybe in the world, but definitely in Chicago for about eight or nine years. If I tried to reassemble that group today, half the seats would be empty.Dave Ferguson — And I don’t think it’s, and I think it’s because they, they drifted and they unintentionally ended up someplace they never intended to be.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Rich Birch — Dave Ferguson — They didn’t intend to end up, you know, in a hotel room with a woman that wasn’t plan A, when they planted a church. Rich Birch — Right. Dave Ferguson — Or to create a toxic culture, which really benefited them more than other people i don’t think that was like the, the goal from the very beginning. Does that make sense? Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely.Dave Ferguson — And I think what happens is we incrementally, we drift a little bit of time until, you know, in a variety of ways, we end up someplace we never intended to be. So one of the things that I do, I’ll I’ll just, maybe I’ll show you here too. I know, this is, this is, I’ll just show you. And I don’t, I know we’re not doing anything on video. I don’t think, but this is, this is kind of, this is my journal.Rich Birch — Yeah.Dave Ferguson — Oh, that’s one from like December. Wow. That’s old. There we go. There we go. That’s actually yesterday. And so like, I just write these four letters, RPMS in my journal almost every day.Dave Ferguson — And R stands for relational. How are things with Sue, the kids, my friends?Dave Ferguson — P stands for physical. How am I doing stewarding this body? For me, it’s a trip the fitness center or out running on the prairie path. Dave Ferguson — How am I doing mentally, which has to do with kind of stress or anxiety or thought life?Dave Ferguson — And then how am I doing spiritually? What’s going on between me and God? Dave Ferguson — And then so I just make a little gauge here and I kind of just, where am I? Where am I? And then I actually go ahead and give myself, I like to keep score. If we got executive pastors, they’ll like this. You should keep score.Rich Birch — Yeah, they like numbers. Stuff that ends up on spreadsheets. It’s good.Dave Ferguson — So you can see, like, so I gave myself a score for each of those on a scale of 1 to 10, then a composite, which was 5, which was actually down from 5.25 the day before. And I think that’s because, as you can kind of hear, I got a little bit of a cold, so I’m not feeling well.Dave Ferguson — And, but I, I try to do this every day. And I encourage leaders, those four gauges, relational, physical, mental, spiritual. If you’ll just spend four minutes every day…Rich Birch — That’s so good.Dave Ferguson — …reflecting on those four areas prayerfully, how am I doing relationally? How am I doing physically? How am I doing mentally? How doing spiritually? You’re going to drift. We all drift, but here’s the thing. You’re not going to go a whole month or a whole year or a decade and and suddenly wake up, you know, and someone’s dragging you into court and you’re going like, how in the world did I end up here?Rich Birch — Yeah, I think this is…Dave Ferguson — And so… Rich Birch — Yeah, I would just want to… Dave Ferguson — …it’s hopefully it’s a very, very practical tool for here’s how you can do this every day. And and let me throw this in Rich too, because I want to make sure I hit this. And then if you can do it in community… Rich Birch — Yes. Dave Ferguson — …that’ll way mitigate how much you lie to yourself.Rich Birch — Yes.Dave Ferguson — t’s like if a small group or a missional community every week, just checking in or once a month with another group that you’re you’re working with, I think that if you do that, it’s not foolproof, but it’ll be a big, big, big help.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. The human, uh, human propensity for self-delusion is incredible, right? Like our ability to like become, to lie to ourselves, let alone other people is amazing. You know, I, I want to just honor you for, I think, you know, I, obviously I saw it Exponential this year where you’ve been rolling it out. I’ve, I’ve, I haven’t read the entire book yet, but I’ve read a bunch of it. And I really appreciate that at this phase in your, journey, you’re raising this flag, I think, and connecting it so, you know, integrally to the multiplier, the multiplication mission. I think that is so critically important because we, you know, we’ve seen those leaders who make a series of foolish, unwise decisions that ultimately end up in a tragic spot.Rich Birch — And oftentimes it’s like, I don’t know what to say to people. How do you avoid that? And I like that you have, you’ve put together a framework here to help us think that. Now, as you’ve rolled the book out to folks…Dave Ferguson — How old you how old are you, Rich?Rich Birch — 52.Dave Ferguson — 52. Rich Birch — Yes. Dave Ferguson — Okay. Like, I’m convinced God’s probably got at least another 20 years… Rich Birch — Sure. Dave Ferguson — …you know, and ah and in some ways it’ll probably be your highest impact years.Rich Birch — Yep. Yep.Dave Ferguson — But if one of these gauges goes way south and takes you out, like there’s 20 of the best years of difference-making that we don’t get from Rich Birch. And it’s not just Rich Birch. Every one of the people listening to the podcast. I mean, I think there’s a whole bunch of people that God goes like, no, I got 75 years or 80 years of difference making. And let’s do the whole run.Rich Birch — Yeah. No, I appreciate that. That’s why I think it’s, it’s I’m not doing a good way I’m not doing a good job articulating. I think it’s a gift that you’ve given to the church because you’re helping us actually attack this problem in a really super practical, good way that that I can see it making a huge difference.Rich Birch — And I would agree with you. I think what I realized after being however many decades in ministry, there’s like a real cumulative effect here that it’s like, you know, each decade, I thought things were great in my thirties and then I hit my forties and now I’m in my fifties.Rich Birch — I’m like, oh my goodness, there’s and and sometimes people will say, they’ll they’ll ask you know kind of questions like, you know hey, how do you basically, you know how do you do what you do or whatever? And a part of I’m like, well, you just stay in it. Like you just keep doing it, right? And stay in the game and stay plugged in and yeah.Dave Ferguson — And the and the longer your influence continues to grow, I mean, like, in the kindest, humble way, if Rich Birch emails somebody, you respond. Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s kind.Dave Ferguson — Because I mean, you’ve put in so much time you mean now that you you’re able to get things done that quicker than you couldn’t before because people know who you are, they’re interested in what you’re doing, right?Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, it’s true.Dave Ferguson — And I think that’s true with all of us. Our influence will just continue to grow if we stay faithful to this.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s great. So I want to, I’m going to, we’re going to talk about where you can get the book in a minute, but just before we get there, of the four, this book’s been out now for a while and it’s out in the world. It’s, you know, as an author, I know that’s a very different experience. You go from writing and then it goes out there and then people react to it.Rich Birch — Are there any of those four gauges that you’ve been surprised by the reaction or you’ve noted the reaction? Like, oh, that’s interesting. I’m hearing from people or I’ve seen, you know, maybe it’s a conversation or that sort of thing that any four of those have kind of bubbled up in in discussion.Dave Ferguson — I think the one, I think that’s what surprised me so far in the conversation is how important the physical gauge, how, how underestimated it is and how important it is.Rich Birch — Oh, interesting. Tell me more.Dave Ferguson — I was just, I was just in a conversation this morning with somebody who’s telling me that he’s really been working on these four gauges and for him in the last year’s dropped 40 pounds. And he’s like, it has, it has really shifted my influence, my, my leadership.Dave Ferguson — He said, I just, I feel more confident walking into a room. And I, yeah, I think probably as Christian leaders, we probably downplay that one the most. And I’m I am surprised.Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — I’m not saying it’s the most important of the four… Rich Birch — No. Yeah. Dave Ferguson — …but I am surprised how important it is and the feedback I’m getting on it.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. I can see that. I can see that for sure.Dave Ferguson — Yeah, I mean we’re whole people.Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. And I, you know, the, the days I ride that Peloton in the morning, I’m better at, I’m a better husband those days. I’m a better, you know, it’s, it just works out, which is, yeah, that’s really cool.Rich Birch — All right. So we want to, so when I, as I’ve been going through this, what I’ve been struck by is, man, I think this could be a real gift for our team’s to go through together. i think this could be a great tool for our staff teams. Maybe if I’m an executive pastor, it’s like, Hey, what if we went through this with our senior leaders first? And then maybe we roll it out to our teams or something like that. Where can people pick up copies of this book? Where do we want to send them online to get them? I’m assuming Amazon. Is there anywhere else we want to send them?Dave Ferguson — You know what? Let me give you two things that comes to mind. One is if they’re ready to make a commitment, say, hey, I want to be a multiplier. If you go exponential.org/multiplier, exponential.org/multiplier, there’s a place there where you can say, hey, I want to be a multiplier.Dave Ferguson — We’ll explain how you can be involved in meetups and cohorts and resource. We actually have a multiplier digital check-in. So you can actually do this online every day, that kind of stuff. So that’s one place that would be, I think, really fun.Dave Ferguson — But you’re right, um a lot of people are using it as a book to go over with their with their staff or with their teams or even their networks. And if they’re going to get, I think it’s like six or seven or more, maybe it’s a dozen, somewhere in that neighborhood, you’re going to get more than few, go ahead and email me and I’ll tell you you get a bulk discount. And that’s [email protected] Birch — Great.Dave Ferguson — [email protected] – Say, hey, I’m going to do this with my team. How can I get a bulk discount? And my assistant, Sarah or me, will get back to you and let you know how you can do that.Rich Birch — Yes, that’s fantastic. Friends, I don’t say this with every author that comes on, but I really, I would highly endorse, would recommend that you do that. I think this could be the book you should pick up maybe this summer, read it by yourself, read it with a small group of people. I do think this could be, I think it’s a critical resource. I think it’s, I think this is more than just like, hey, it’s another book. You know, I think there’s a real potential here for this to shift the conversation in a really positive way in the broader church. So I would love more people to pick it up. Well, Dave, this has been incredible. I really appreciate you being here today. Any final words as we kind of land today’s episode?Dave Ferguson — I would probably come back to, if I was going leave people with one thought, is just just remember that you’re going to reproduce who you are and what you do.Rich Birch — So good. Appreciate you, Dave. Thanks so much. We want to send people to exponential.org. Is there anywhere else online we want them to go if they want to track with you or with the movement or anything like that?Dave Ferguson — I mean um I’m on most of the socials, so you can follow me there. DaveFerguson.org, DaveFerguson.org, if, you know, for some reason you want me to speak or do something or find other books that I’ve written.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Thanks for being here today, sir. Appreciate that.Dave Ferguson — Hey, my pleasure.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Eric Holmstrom, Lead Pastor of Purpose Church in Pomona, California. Founded more than 150 years ago, Purpose Church has a rich legacy of ministry and is currently experiencing significant growth following a healthy leadership transition. In this conversation, Eric shares lessons from succeeding a beloved long-tenured pastor, building on an existing culture, and leading a historic church into a new season of impact. Are you preparing for a succession transition—or wondering how to lead after a highly respected predecessor? Eric offers practical wisdom on navigating change with humility, honoring the past, and creating momentum for the future. Following a beloved predecessor. // Succeeding a pastor who led for 31 years can feel intimidating, and Eric is refreshingly honest about the insecurities he faced. During the transition process, he wrestled with feelings of inadequacy and wondered whether he was the right person for the role. Yet he found confidence not in his abilities, but in God’s calling. A defining moment came on the morning of the congregational vote when he reflected on Isaiah 41:13: “I am the Lord your God who takes hold of your right hand and says to you, do not fear; I will help you.” That promise became an anchor throughout the transition. The gift of a healthy handoff. // Eric credits much of the success of the transition to the generosity and wisdom of former lead pastor Glenn Gunderson. During the public handoff, Glenn introduced Eric to the congregation as “your new lead pastor” and then added, “and my new lead pastor.” That simple statement communicated trust, unity, and support. Glenn also intentionally stepped back for several months to allow Eric to build relationships with the congregation before gradually returning to participate in ministry. The result was a transition marked by health rather than division. Focus on what only you can do. // One of Eric’s biggest adjustments was determining how to spend his time as lead pastor. He quickly realized he could be involved in almost anything, but shouldn’t be. Instead, he narrowed his focus to vision, spiritual direction, staff development, and culture. While pastoral care remains important, he sees his primary role through the lens of Ephesians 4: equipping leaders who then shepherd and disciple others throughout the church. You are not the exception—you are the example. // One of the most significant initiatives Eric introduced was an employee spiritual commitment for church staff. He noticed a tendency among ministry leaders to unintentionally exempt themselves from practices they encourage others to embrace. Reading Scripture, serving, giving, participating in groups, and pursuing spiritual growth are not just expectations for church members—they are expectations for staff as well. After months of discussion, clarification, and prayer, the entire staff committed to a shared set of spiritual standards designed to strengthen culture and integrity across the organization. Building an intentional invite culture. // Purpose Church has also seen momentum through strategic “Sunday Funday” invite events. Rather than creating dramatically different experiences, these Sundays closely resemble a normal weekend service while adding elements that make inviting easier. Eric intentionally tells the congregation exactly what will be taught and who the message is designed for, helping members identify specific people to invite. This approach has contributed to increased attendance, more baptisms, and a growing number of people taking first steps toward faith. Shepherd people where they are. // Looking back, one of Eric’s biggest lessons is the importance of meeting people where they are emotionally during a transition. Some church members were grieving the departure of a beloved pastor, while others were brand new and excited about the future. Rather than forcing everyone into the same experience, Eric sought to pastor each person according to their unique journey. This posture of empathy helped create trust during a potentially difficult season. To learn more about Purpose Church, visit purposechurch.com or follow their ministry online for resources, messages, and updates. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe Do you feel like your church’s or school’s facility could be preventing growth? Are you frustrated or possibly overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that you could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs? Well, the team over at Risepointe can help! As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead you to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Your mission should not be held back by your building. Their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to incorporate creative design solutions to help move YOUR mission forward. Check them out at risepointe.com and while you’re there, schedule a FREE call to explore possibilities for your needs, vision and future…Risepointe believes that God still uses spaces…and they’re here to help. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad you’ve decided to tune in and you’re going to be rewarded for that today. We’re having a conversation that I know there’s a whole bunch of leaders that are on the front end of this decision. And today you’re going to get a chance to kind of peek up over the horizon and see potentially where your church is going to be in a few years. You’re going to want to stick around for this entire conversation. We’ve got Eric Holmstrom with us. He is the lead pastor of Purpose Church, which is in Pomona, California. Rich Birch — It originally started as Spadra, if I’m pronouncing correct, Baptist Church 150 years ago. It’s one of the fastest growing churches in the country. It’s diverse, multi-generational of every age and stage. And Eric has been the lead pastor since 2024. Welcome to the podcast. So glad you’re here.Eric Holmstrom — Well, thank you so much, Rich, for having me. I am a huge fan of you and what you’re doing. I love how you’re supporting and helping church leaders and ministry leaders. So thanks for letting me join you today.Rich Birch — Oh, come on. That’s super kind. Glad you’re here and really looking forward to learning from you today. Why don’t you kind of give us a bit of your story and tell us a little bit about Purpose and kind of set the context for us.Eric Holmstrom — Yeah, well, Rich, that’s really cool too that you knew the name of our original church. It was Spadra Baptist, I think, was back in the day.Rich Birch — Spadra.Eric Holmstrom — And it’s actually, our church is 156 years old. So our church was started three years before the city of Pomona even became a city. And so a group of people came into this area and felt God calling them to plant a church here. And for 156 years, we’ve been in different parts of the city, but always here in Pomona, feeling called by God here. And so I am lead pastor number 19. Rich Birch — Wow.Eric Holmstrom — And so I’m just a blip on the radar here. And unless Jesus returns, Lord willing, there will be lead pastor 21, 20, or 20, 21, 22, 23. And they won’t even remember me. They won’t even know anything about me and God will continue to do a great work through this church. Eric Holmstrom — So I came here, my wife Sarah and I came here. We had one kid at the time, Charlie, and we came here 13 years ago. And you know felt like, this is a great, healthy church. The lead pastor, our our former lead pastor, Glenn Gunderson, just an amazing man of God. Him and his wife, Kimberly, and their family, they led here for 31 years as our lead pastor and just such a legacy leader.Eric Holmstrom — So when we got here, I started as the high school pastor and, I you know, wasn’t sure how long we’d be here. Loved the ministry, loved that ah there is a multi-generational, very diverse congregation here in terms of even diverse socioeconomically.Eric Holmstrom — So I love the opportunity to get to do youth ministry. That’s what I was passionate about and excited about and just wanted to faithfully follow God. I mean, that’s where my story of faith really began was going into my freshman year of high school. That’s when I got saved. That’s when I gave my life to Christ. I was at a camp, summer camp, went there looking for a girl and I found God. And my life was forever changed because of that, because of this camp and the local church that discipled me.Eric Holmstrom — And so got into youth ministry, came here, ah was a high school pastor for 10 years here, did a total of 18 years in youth ministry, and then began to sense that God was calling me and my family to step into this new season. And our lead pastor was encouraging of that. He really saw that in me. Eric Holmstrom — But then in our church polity, in our structure here, there had to be a church vote. And so I interviewed, got grilled by, search committee…Rich Birch — Yes.Eric Holmstrom — …had an amazing, you know experience, a challenging. And at the end of it, uh, you know, we went before the congregation and there was a vote and I got enough votes to become the next lead pastor. Rich Birch — Love it. Eric Holmstrom — And the baton was passed and it was such a healthy transition. Our, our former lead pastor, pastor Glenn, I’ll never forget on that that ah Sunday when he passed the baton to me, he said to our whole church, he said, this is Eric, your new lead pastor, and this is Eric, my new lead pastor.Rich Birch — Oh, wow. What a gift.Eric Holmstrom — And so he just got it. It was a powerful statement and very humbled. And and yeah, and then he him and his family kind of for six months ah gave a little space for me to bond with the congregation.Eric Holmstrom — And then their, you know, they’re back in the rotation now. We see them about once a month and then they’re with their grandkids and doing other things. But ah but he preaches here still. Pastor Glenn preaches here about three or four times a year still. Rich Birch — Love it. Eric Holmstrom — And so it’s been a beautiful, healthy transition.Rich Birch — That’s so cool. I love the fact that you’re, you know, you know, there’s 19 pastors been there over those 150 years. I love that context of you setting yourself in like, hey, ah you’re in one in a line.Rich Birch — A couple of years ago, I was in London, England, and was at a church and was talking to the vicar. And he was, we were just walking around their building… Eric Holmstrom — Wow. Rich Birch — …and he said, yeah, this wall over here is a thousand years old. Eric Holmstrom — Yeah. Rich Birch — And, and then he had similar, they have ah really literally written on the wall, all the pastors through the years.Eric Holmstrom — Yeah.Rich Birch — And he pointed at some guy and said, that guy is written in a play by Shakespeare. Like he’s literally a character in Shakespeare.Eric Holmstrom — No way.Rich Birch — Yeah. So I was like, man, that’s just a, you know, thinking about legacy this is a very different way to think about it.Eric Holmstrom — Oh, oh, oh.Rich Birch — Right. And I’ve been around forever. Well, let’s go back to those early…Eric Holmstrom — And Rich, I, I…Rich Birch — Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Yeah, go ahead.Eric Holmstrom — Oh, was just gonna I wish you could come and see our church because we have this like heritage wall of like, you know, our church, different seasons, doing different things, buildings, groups, whatever. And there’s a wall of all of us like lead pastors. And you should see that wall. These lead pastors are like the most distinguished, like, you know, FB then their last name, Reverend, Doctor. And they’ve got the suits and the glorious beards and they look amazing. And then there’s me, this buffoon, who is this guy? Like who how did if he make this cut?Rich Birch — One of these things doesn’t belong.Eric Holmstrom — I don’t fit in, but I’m just humbled and honored that God would choose me. D.L. Moody has that line, or his son, Paul Moody. D.L. Moody is one of my mentors, and ah you know historical mentors. But his son, Paul, said that ah about his dad, he said, D.L. Moody never got over that God would use him, despite all of his handicaps. And that ah his wife, the love of his life would choose to love him.Eric Holmstrom — And I just feel like I’m that I’m that man. I’m just I’m so amazed and honored that I get to be a part of this legacy church and that my wife and my family love me. And that, you know, I’m just, I feel very grateful and humbled.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so cool. Well, let’s go back to those early days of the transition. You know, what’s going through your head when you’re following in the footsteps of someone who’s been there for 31 years? That’s a significant time to step in on. What were what were you aware of, you know, in those early days? What was kind of thing that was bubbling around in your head?Eric Holmstrom — Oh, oh my gosh. Okay. The thing bubbling around my head is, am I an idiot? Like why? This is like following Rick Warren. This is like following Billy Graham. Like why? I mean, Pastor Glenn Gunderson is one, just he’s nationally known, internationally. He’s he’s just such an incredible, amazing pastor and leader, and 31 years here at our church, just faithfully leading.Eric Holmstrom — And so why would I want to follow him? Like that, it just, ah you know, so there was a lot of insecurity and just fear around that. I’m thinking through the whole process for anyone that’s gone through a similar process, just feeling very vulnerable, honestly. Eric Holmstrom — I mean, lots of people in our church and different groups were having conversations about me and whether they saw me in this role and, ah you know, that that just felt very exposing and and made me feel very vulnerable.Eric Holmstrom — And at the same time, like really excited, like really the going, wow, like this, this would be a dream. You know, I think for me, I went through kind of a life planning, my wife and I went through a life planning process with an executive pastor of another church and and and a life coach. It was amazing experience. And basically what surfaced for me is, you know, I feel like my calling is to lead every generation to leverage everything they have to advance God’s kingdom.Eric Holmstrom — And so I really kind of grew through my ministry years of going, I really am passionate about leading every generation. And leading every generation to make a mark, to to leave a legacy, to do something great with their lives.Eric Holmstrom — When I gave my life to Christ going into my freshman year of high school, I remember praying, Lord, ah I’ll follow you. I’ll become a Christian, but you’ve got to make it an adventure. Because to me, I felt like, well, maybe being a Christian would be a boring thing. And I felt like God was laughing going, you have no idea what adventure is. Adventure is being a Jesus follower. And and so I just want people to wake up to the adventure of following Christ. Eric Holmstrom — And so I had those mixture of emotions of insecurity, fear. I remember the morning of the congregational vote where, you know, we had done this like six months of work and interviews.Eric Holmstrom — And it all came down to how many people were going to gather in the room, how many people were going to vote.Eric Holmstrom — There there had to be at least in our polity structure, at least two thirds of the people had to vote in favor of me being the next lead pastor. And I’m getting calls and texts from buddies who are like, Eric, we’re cheering you on. Can’t make it tonight. Sorry, man, have this pizza dinner. And I’m like, I’m like, bro, I need you there. Like I need you in the room.Eric Holmstrom — But but anyway, that morning, I was on a run and just feeling so insecure, feeling, you know, Satan was just bringing to mind all my sin, all my shortcomings. And man, the Lord met me. I feel like I got this vision and this picture of Jesus holding my right hand. And I was going, wow. Like it was just powerful. But then I’m like, okay, where is that in the Bible? And then the Lord led me to Isaiah 41:13, “for I am the Lord, your God who takes hold of your right hand and says to you, do not fear. I will help you.”Eric Holmstrom — And was going, okay, if, if, if we’re going to step into this next season and Lord willing, you know, we, we’d love to be here 20, 30 years, however long the Lord would have us here. I believe Jesus is holding my right hand and he is leading me and helping me through our amazing staff and our board and our congregation and our volunteers and everyone involved.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. And, you know, for context, a part of the reason why we’re talking to you is because your church has been flagged as one of the fastest growing churches. Eric Holmstrom — Yeah.Rich Birch — So listeners, like, let’s put this in context here. This transition happened and the church continued to accelerate and reach more people…Eric Holmstrom — Yeah.Rich Birch — …which I think can be a fear on the on the side of maybe the departing leaders. They’re like, hey, what’s going to happen? Is this thing going to go sideways? Well, it hasn’t. It’s actually continued to accelerate. So, and I even have seen this even as we’ve you know kind of interacted today. Eric Holmstrom — Yeah.Rich Birch — How do you think about honoring what’s happened, so honoring the past…Eric Holmstrom — Yeah.Rich Birch — …honoring the leadership and what’s happened there, but still really continuing to lead god lead the church into what God has for the church, into something new. How has that tension, I’ve seen you model it already in this conversation…Eric Holmstrom — Yeah, yeah. Rich Birch — …but how does that work out you know in your leadership?Eric Holmstrom — Oh, that’s such a great question. And what’s awesome is like, we don’t have to fake it here at Purpose Church because our lead pastor, our former lead pastor, Glenn Gunderson, did such an amazing job creating a church culture here where, you know, he used to always say, ah this church is is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints.Eric Holmstrom — He would always talk about, um we’re a church that goes after the one.Eric Holmstrom — And we have ah a… a high celebrate recovery culture here, model here of people come as they are. And and really it’s it’s it’s a beautiful church to be a part of in terms of, you know, we’ve had people on our staff who were homeless sleeping on our church campus and then we offered them a job. They went through recovery. Now they’re leading different ministry areas. Eric Holmstrom — We’ve got people on our staff who were very high up in, in, industries that ah are just really dark and broken. And God has redeemed them and we brought them on our church staff and now they’re working for God’s kingdom and doing great things.Eric Holmstrom — And so, our church culture has always been one of, especially under Pastor Glenn’s leadership, of we want to reach people that are far from God. Our vision is everyone everywhere following Jesus.Eric Holmstrom — We literally mean everyone, wherever they’re at, following Jesus, which means there’s a starting point for their relationship with God. And they continue, that we continue being discipled, continue growing in our relationship So what I’m trying to do is, especially as I started in this role, is honor what’s been, because we’ve got this amazing momentum moving forward because of their hard work.Eric Holmstrom — And because of this church culture that has been created. So we’re trying to honor the past, trying to thank God for the ways that he has led our church and then continue to move into the future and and start new ways of reaching people through some invite Sundays that we’ve done through different sermon series, through reaching out to our neighborhood and our community more.Eric Holmstrom — And so, it’s been an awesome progression and you’re right. We have seen a lot of growth ah while Pastor Glenn was our lead pastor and by God’s grace, he’s continued to grow this church over the last almost two years that I’ve been the lead pastor.Rich Birch — Yes, that’s great. So let’s again, we’re thinking about these early days, you’re in this chair. How did you get clarity on where you should be spending your time? It’s an interesting shift, right?Eric Holmstrom — Yes.Rich Birch — You go from being the person on the team to now you’re responsible for the team, ultimate flexibility, you can make up your own day.Eric Holmstrom — Yes. Yes.Rich Birch — How did you figure that out?Eric Holmstrom — Yes. Yes. And that’s the word, that’s the hardest part for me is in this role as lead pastor, I could get involved in anything I wanted to, right? I could schedule a meeting with anyone. And and so I had to quickly discern, okay, what does the church need most from me? And what is it that only I can do and only I should be doing? Eric Holmstrom — And so what kind of quickly surfaced for me is I need to be giving my best energy towards what’s the vision and direction of our church.Eric Holmstrom — What’s the spiritual direction of our church? Now, I’m not just casting vision by myself. I’ve got an amazing executive pastor, Pastor Greg, who he he’s he’s a rock star. I mean, he hired me here at this church. And then through this process, I became his boss. Rich Birch — Oh wow.Eric Holmstrom — And he is just, he is such an amazing, humble, incredible executive pastor.Eric Holmstrom — He’s been a lead pastor before and has no desire to be a lead pastor again. So he is just been, he was such a champion carrying our church through that season of transition and now being an amazing executive pastor.Eric Holmstrom — So, you know, we’re developing vision through time with my executive pastor and our strategic team, our pastors. But at the end of the day, I’m seeking the Lord going, okay, God, taking in all of this inside and time away with you. What’s the vision and direction you’re leading our church in? What’s the spiritual direction? And then for me, a core role that I have here is developing and discipling and training up our staff, our pastors and our leaders. And then, of course, as a pastor, I love doing congregational care and and there is time built into my schedule for that. But honestly, if I’m doing my job best, according to Ephesians 4:12, I’m equipping the saints for ministry. Rich Birch — Yeah.Eric Holmstrom — And so really what I need to be doing is pouring into our staff here, who are then caring for and ministering to our congregation, many of whom I only interact with, you know, many of our, much of our congregation, I only interact with on Sunday morning when I see them or, um you know, if they happen to come forward or we send an email, it’s really our church staff and then our high capacity volunteers who are discipling, mentoring, coaching, walking with the rest of our church. So that’s where I’ve been focusing a lot of my attention.Eric Holmstrom — Also on culture. That’s become a really important one. You know I’m constantly thinking through, okay, what do I need to be focusing on externally for our church?Eric Holmstrom — But then what about internally? How do we be the healthiest we can be as an organization and as a church? And so we did something this last year, we basically took a year and said, we are going to develop ah what we ended up calling an employee spiritual commitment, where we are making some decisions as a staff and a team This is who we are going to be. This is going to be our culture. Eric Holmstrom — Because Rich, I have discovered that the longer you become, longer you’ve been a Christian and and and once you get on staff or become a high capacity volunteer or whatever, Satan likes to trick us into thinking that we become the exception. Eric Holmstrom — And so what I’m telling our staff all the time is you are not the exception. You are the example. Rich Birch — good.Eric Holmstrom — As soon as you join a staff, you start thinking, you know what? I don’t need to tithe here or give, that’s what other people do. I don’t need to serve because I work here at the church. I don’t need to read my Bible for my own intimacy and time with the Lord. I just read my Bible to prepare sermons. I don’t need to be in a life group. That would be hard for me as a church staff member. That’s for ever…. So I’m gonna tell everybody else, you need to be reading your Bible, you need to be tithing, you need to be serving, you to be in a life group, but those things don’t apply for me because I’m the exception.Eric Holmstrom — Wrong. Peter talks about it in 1 Peter 5. Be an example. Be an example the flock.Rich Birch — Love that.Eric Holmstrom — So we made some commitments and we worked on them. We prayed through them. We talked about them with our staff and we shared them and then gave people four months to say, hey, if you’re not about this, that’s okay.Eric Holmstrom — You’re still Christian. You just can’t work here, right? And like try to be as gracious and kind as we as we could be say, hey, we’re not saying you’re not a Christian.Rich Birch — Wow. Yes.Eric Holmstrom — We’re not saying you don’t love Jesus. We’re just saying. These are going to be the commitments we are going to keep as the staff and the leaders of Purpose Church so that we can look at our congregation and say, we want to be an example to you, not an exception to you.Eric Holmstrom — So I’ve been really wrestling with that culture of our staff, culture of our church, and then also kind of vision direction, spiritual direction of of where we’re going and developing.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I’d love to talk a little bit more on the rollout of the commitments. I think that’s that’s amazing. Eric Holmstrom — Yeah.Rich Birch — And um you know you know you brought it up there. Hey, we’re going to give the four months for you to wrestle through this and think about it. Maybe just double click on that because I think it’s great that you’re calling your team to that.Eric Holmstrom — Okay.Rich Birch — But just give me a little more about well how that went. What would you do different if you’d done it again? What went well? What didn’t go well?Eric Holmstrom — Totally.Rich Birch — What would you advise the clients if they called and said, hey, we’re thinking about doing something like that?Eric Holmstrom — Yeah, so it really started with me and our executive pastor and our chief of operations here. We were in a meeting and we were like, look, we just think it’s important that our whole staff embody these values. And then we asked each other, hey, would we be willing to lose amazing people who are doing amazing work, but don’t necessarily fit with our culture? Like, would we be willing to lose them? And we all looked at each other and said, you know what? It’s worth it. It’s worth it. It feels like the right thing to do. It feels like the step that honors God.Eric Holmstrom — And so it started with that commitment and that that, you know, recognition, like we may lose people in the process. And then, you know, we started to work on it with our pastors and our staff, roll it out. But before we did that too, we we sent it to our lawyer and we sent it to our trustees.Eric Holmstrom — They looked through it. We sent it to our lawyer because they’re like, are we doing anything illegal here? And ah our lawyer wrote back the most beautiful, you know, I guess maybe this is one of the ways you know, like, you’re you’re a lead pastor is like when when when you get an email from your lawyer that’s like really affirming, you start crying.Eric Holmstrom — And so I’m just like, she she she sent me an email, she sent us an email and she said, I stand by all of these commitments. And if I lived in your area, because she’s, think she’s in Alabama. She said, if I lived in your area, I would go to your church because I would want to be led by a staff like this. Rich Birch — That’s so good.Eric Holmstrom — And so it was very, very affirming. So it was important to run it, you know, to collaborate with our pastors, run it through our lawyer, ah run it through our trustees, getting all the input, all those things. And then we shared it with our staff.Eric Holmstrom — I wrote kind of like a cover letter for, hey, here’s my heart behind it. It’s because I want you to be a healthy leader.Rich Birch — That’s good.Eric Holmstrom — It’s because I want you to be an example. It’s because I want your work in ministry to be meaningful. And I care about you as a leader. And I care about the health of our church. And then we shared it with the staff and said, hey, you’ve got, I think it was three three months to pray on this. And then we need you to sign this and commit to this as we go into the new year together.Eric Holmstrom — And and and thankfully, everybody committed to it. We had, but but that three to four months also gave opportunity for conversations. And we invited those. You said, hey, there’s anything unclear in this for your situation or your season of life, like, let’s talk about this.Eric Holmstrom — And it was really, really great. It gave us a lot of opportunities to have conversation, clarifying conversations, and to help people not misunderstand things, but to understand the heart and and how it might apply to them.Eric Holmstrom — And it’s been really cool to see our staff… Rich Birch — that’s cool. Eric Holmstrom — …invested more in groups, invested more in setting that example for our church.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. I love that. And, you know, what even a great kind of alignment thing to go through as you’re starting to lead, you know, to say, hey, let’s try to define what is going to be really important for us. Rich Birch — So going in a totally different direction. You mentioned it as we kind of flew through there and love invite culture stuff. And so you mentioned invite Sundays. And so that caught my eye. Tell me about those. How have they function? How does that look different than from what you’ve done before? Yeah, just kind of unpack that a little bit for us.Eric Holmstrom — Yeah. Yeah. Well, Rich, I’ve heard on your podcast, which by the way, I’m a big fan of unSeminary. I think your podcast is awesome. And I’m a big fan of seminary. I went to seminary. I went to two different seminaries.Rich Birch — Yes.Eric Holmstrom — I love seminary, but I think we can learn so much from each other. And so to everyone listening, I’m just so grateful you’re joining us today. And I’m always getting on our staff here as they’re joining, as they’re, you know, becoming a seminary student, as they’re going to graduate school to, hey, continue to serve in a local church.Eric Holmstrom — When I went to seminary, there were several students, colleagues who were only doing seminary. They were disconnected from the local church. And I’m like, what are you doing? You’re missing out on applying what you’re learning. Rich Birch — It’s so true.Eric Holmstrom — But there’s so much that seminary can’t teach you or doesn’t teach you. And so podcasts like yours, Rich, like the one you have here is absolutely amazing. Eric Holmstrom — One the things you’ve talked about on your podcast is how most people are invited to church by somebody else. So so we do you know promotions on social media and on our website and you know all that stuff. But we wanted to prioritize equipping our church and giving our church family an excuse for to invite their friends and their family to church.Eric Holmstrom — And so we have four or five of these invite Sundays every year where we try to keep them very similar to what somebody would experience on a Sunday morning, just heightened a little bit. So we’ll get bounce houses. We’ll we’ll bring a food truck in. We’ve even kind of experimented with like launching into a series. So we did a spiritual warfare series in the fall called “The War You’re In.”Eric Holmstrom — And it launched on our invite Sunday. And the the the idea was, let’s give these new people who are coming chapter one of this story of this book and see if it piques their interest. But weeks leading up to that, we’re telling our church family, we call them Sunday Funday. how we kind of brand them, but we tell our church family, hey, Sunday Funday is coming up. Don’t come to church alone. Invite your neighbor, invite your friends. Who’s your one more that doesn’t know Jesus? This is a great opportunity to invite them. And and every Sunday here at Purpose Church is a great Sunday to bring somebody. Rich Birch — Right.Eric Holmstrom — I do a salvation message about once a month or so. We’ve seen a lot of people surrender their lives to Christ this year. We’ve had more baptisms this year than we had in the last 10 years. It’s just been incredible. So we’re seeing people take those first steps, but we’re trying to equip our church family. We’re telling them, hey, here’s what we’re talking about.Rich Birch — That’s good.Eric Holmstrom — Leading into Easter. I mean, Easter is an invite Sunday for us. It’s a big outreach Sunday for us. So multiple weeks leading up to Easter, I’m telling our church family, this is what I’m talking about. You know, this this Easter, last Easter, our theme was a second chance. So I’m telling our church family, hey, if you’ve got somebody in your life who needs a second chance, this is their Easter. This is the service for them. Eric Holmstrom — So I’m trying to, we’re trying to help our congregation get excited about what’s happening here, equipping them with flyers, talking about what we’ll be talking about, making it an environment through ah worship, greeting the message through the atmosphere and the environment. I mean, I think one of our secret sauces here at Purpose Church is we don’t have the biggest budget, but we’ve got big hearts. Rich Birch — That’s right.Eric Holmstrom — The people of Purpose Church have big hearts. They love people well. They make people feel at home and welcomed here. And so we want to leverage that. We want to see new people coming on our campus and and giving all of us an opportunity to welcome them, love them. And and and we’re seeing people stick around, which has been exciting.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so cool. Love that. Just to call out friends, ah there’s a lot there that you should rip off if you’re listening in. There’s so good. I love that. But one of the things that many churches miss on trying to build invite culture is we we think that like if we kind of surprise our people, that they’ll like that. It’s like, oh, there’s some big thing happening on that day. You’re going to want to invite your friends to be here.Rich Birch — That’s actually not how people think. You need, they need to be very predictable. The fact that you’re saying, this is exactly what we’re going to be teaching on. Do you know someone who asks questions like this, this, and this? You need to get them to be here that day. That is a great best practice there for sure. I love I love that.Eric Holmstrom — Oh, thanks Rich.Rich Birch — As opposed to like, oh, hey, it’s going to be great, um you know which just doesn’t mean anything to people.Eric Holmstrom — Yep. And and we used to do like Easter services at a different location, you know, with more seating.Rich Birch — Right.Eric Holmstrom — But we’ve just gone, man, we want the experience to feel as similar as possible on a Sunday morning. So our church family’s equipped to know what are we going to be talking about? What’s going to be happening? But then for that new person who comes, we want them to feel the familiarity of the parking experience, of dropping off their kids, of where they’re sitting.Eric Holmstrom — And so that as they’re making that decision, “Am I going to come back again?”, they’ll know what that experience is going to be like. And then of course, we have an amazing next steps team that’s following up with these people. That is, we’re getting information. We’re inviting them to scan a QR code to connect with us. We have a gift for them. And then our team is doing a great job of following up with them and helping them take the next steps that they want to take.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. Well, let’s think about the succession question again, you know, going back to that conversation. So for a pastor who might be listening in today, who is, they are the person that is going to be, you know, taking the baton. Eric Holmstrom — Yeah.Rich Birch — Maybe they’re before the actual transition, but they’re thinking about their first 90 days, 100 days.Eric Holmstrom — Yes. Yes.Rich Birch — What would what advice would you give to them? How how would you help them think about their their their initial days as they’re launching off?Eric Holmstrom — Oh, that’s so great. Okay. So the first thing I tried to do was to make a commitment that I’m going to shepherd people and pastor people right where they are. And what I mean by that is there were people in our church who were grieving that our former lead pastor was leaving. And what they didn’t need from me was vision, vision, vision. What they needed from me is, Hey, I get it. I’m I’m sad too. Like I’m going to miss him.Eric Holmstrom — And and so our job was to shepherd and pastor them. And by the way, I told this to all of our staff and our pastors. I said, don’t feel like you have to you know hype me up or or if people are sad that things are changing, that you have to try to convince them. Like there’s that whole change curve. It’s going to take people time and people are on different places. And so shepherding and pastoring people who were really struggling and and having a difficult time with the change, meeting them where they’re at.Eric Holmstrom — There were also people who had recently come to our church. I just met ah a guy last Sunday who’s been coming for like a couple months now and he’s brand new to our church. And he’s like, man, I love it here. Love you, Pastor Eric. And and there was a guy who preached like a couple of weeks ago. I think he like led the church for like 30 years or something. He was great. He was amazing. Eric Holmstrom — I’m like, Oh my goodness. You don’t know pastor Glenn Gunderson at all. You don’t know him.Rich Birch — Yes.Eric Holmstrom — And and so what he needs is vision for where we’re going.Rich Birch — Yes.Eric Holmstrom — So pastoring and shepherding people right where they are, instead of trying to force everybody into one category.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Eric Holmstrom — Second thing that I just felt the Lord leading me to do that I’ve just continued to do is I start every single sermon the exact same way. I tell our church every single Sunday, I greet the new people and it’s it’s a for everybody, whether you’re new or you’ve been a part of our church forever.Eric Holmstrom — I greet them the same way. I say, I love you. And most importantly, God loves you. And that sort of came out of me asking this question, what do I wanna be remembered for? Like, what’s the thing that at the end of the day, these people are not gonna remember all my sermons, all my points, but if they if they remembered one thing about me as their pastor, what would it be? And it’s that I would want them to know I love them and that God loved them.Rich Birch — That’s so good.Eric Holmstrom — And 1 Thessalonians 2:8 really like has been my ministry motto. Paul says, because we loved you so much, we cared for you, we shared the gospel and we shared our lives as well. Rich Birch — That’s good.Eric Holmstrom — So Paul’s talking about this this ministry that’s born out of a deep love for the people that you’re pastoring. And so I I’m always praying right before I preach. I pray the same thing. God, would you put your message in me like a fire in my bones? And would you help me to see these people the way you see them and to feel about them the way you feel about them?Rich Birch — That’s so good.Eric Holmstrom — And I’ve had moments when I’ve been preaching where it’s like, I just feel like the Spirit of God deposits into my heart his incredible love for them. And I start tearing up over something.Eric Holmstrom — But but I tell them every Sunday, I love you. And most importantly, God loves you. So that when I give them a convicting word, a challenging word, something where I’m calling them to a higher standard, they know it’s coming from a pastor that doesn’t want to beat them up or that doesn’t care about them or is trying to build some platform.Eric Holmstrom — It comes from a pastor who loves them and who is deeply, deeply convinced that God loves them. So I’m sharing that with them um each Sunday. And I’ve heard from a lot of people that that that really resonates and and feels significant for them.Rich Birch — Yeah it’s good. Eric Holmstrom — Yeah. Rich Birch — I think that’s great. I think the the thing to point out there that I think is, I just think is amazing is good is I think oftentimes we when we think about that kind of transition we can go to the like immediate the tactics or the whatever you know like oh make sure you meet with all these people or whatever. And what I’ve seen in churches that this transition has gone well is there’s a humility with both leaders, which both of you, which you have described him in these conversations today, like that, you know, when Glenn passed it to you, there was ah that humble moment. And he obviously continues to, you know, he gave some space, but has continued to handle himself in a humble way.Eric Holmstrom — Yeah.Rich Birch — You’re handling yourself with humility as well. And, you know, the, I like that you’re pushing on really ah a deeper issue, which is like, do you love these people at the end of the day? You know you’re not taking over some organization this is a family that you’re called to lead. And so I mean I think that’s just so good. That’s fantastic. Eric Holmstrom — Yeah. And then, Rich, I would just want to say too, in addition to that is then starting to cast some vision and direction for, okay, where is God taking this church? So one of the things we did is we started to a new rhythm of Vision Sunday once a year. So we actually, it’s coming up in a couple Sundays. We try to do it right before summer. We do it actually, it aligns with our fiscal budget year. So one of the things that we tried to make a a commitment around is, hey, we’re gonna be a vision-driven church. We’re gonna have vision-driven budgeting. So it’s not just, hey, can I get $1,000 more than last year or whatever? It’s it’s what’s the vision that God has given you for your ministry, for your department, and we’re budgeting around that. Eric Holmstrom — But that starts with me as I’m with my team, I’m a collaborative visionary. And as I’m hearing from the Lord, what’s the vision and direction for our church? And so ah first Sunday of June, we do a big vision Sunday where we celebrate what God has been doing. And where we cast vision for the next year. And so that’s part of what I’m doing too.Rich Birch — That’s good.Eric Holmstrom — And what I did early on and continue to do is to keep vision in front of our church of where are we going? What things are we starting? What are we praying and hoping to see the Lord do? And what’s their part in that?Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Well, this has been a fantastic conversation. Any final words just as we wrap up today’s discussion?Eric Holmstrom — Yeah, absolutely. Well, I would just say that the last thing I would want to say is I think as as a lead pastor or, and if preaching is a high priority for you, recognizing that we do so much leadership through our preaching. Rich Birch — That’s the truth.Eric Holmstrom — And so that that became a really important thing for me in terms of figuring out, okay, how do I go about writing the sermon? How do I edit the sermon? How do I prepare and practice the sermon and then ultimately get some evaluation on the sermon?Eric Holmstrom — And so that’s been a journey for me of of learning how to do that well. And I think some of the things I’ve I’ve learned along the way is there’s parts of it you don’t love and that are more challenging. For me, it’s the editing. Eric Holmstrom — And I think a lot of preachers and pastors are probably like that. You know, on Mondays, I’ll start going, man, I think I only have a 15 minute sermon here. By Thursday, I’m like, I’ve got an 80 minute sermon here. And so the the I think the difference between good sermons and great sermons is great sermons are are are ones where we cut out the good stuff. It’s all good stuff, but we cut out the good stuff to make enough room for the great stuff. Eric Holmstrom — And then getting people’s feedback, you know? So after i write the sermon, I edit it, I still practice my sermons even before delivering them I have a rhythm of, they gotta be done by Thursdays because I wanna enjoy some of my weekend. And so I’m practicing my sermons, but then, after preaching my sermons, I have kind of an evaluation form that I give different people in our church to give me direct feedback because there’s things I’m not seeing.Eric Holmstrom — And especially leading up into Easter and some of these invite Sundays, I’ll actually deliver my sermon to several people on our staff. They’ll give me direct feedback. And sometimes it’s not what I want to hear. Sometimes the story I’m so excited about, they’re going, hey, you know what? I don’t think it fits here. Or and my sermons have always been better because of their feedback.Eric Holmstrom — And so that’s something I’m really passionate about is helping. Rich Birch — That’s good. Eric Holmstrom — We started a preacher’s club. That’s part of the, one of the things that I’m trying to do in terms of developing our ministry leaders. And so we started a preacher’s club where we meet once a month and, everyone gives, you know, or one or two people will give a 10 minute sermon and we give each other feedback. I share with them some tips and tricks, things I’m learning, and we watch other sermons and evaluate them. Eric Holmstrom — And so ah that that’s been an important aspect, I think, for me is really is realizing that that for for our church, 90% of our community interacts with me on a Sunday morning through my sermon. And so I want to be really intentional to shepherd and pastor and care for them and to give them the very best that I can. And so that’s been some of the process for me. Rich Birch — So good. That’s, that’s fantastic. That’s like a little preaching clinic you just gave us there. That’s so good. So many good things to unpack there. This has been a fantastic conversation, Eric. I really appreciate your time today. If, where do we want to send people online? If they want to track with you or with the church, where do we want to send them?Eric Holmstrom — Oh man, well, you could go to our church webpage, purposechurch.com. We’re on Instagram, Purpose Pomona. You could follow me on Instagram, eric.h.holmstrom. Good luck spelling that. But I would love to you know I would love to interact with you on Instagram. That’s kind of the only place that I’m at. But yeah, thank you. And Rich, this has been a really rich conversation rich rich conversation I appreciate you, man.Rich Birch — Nice.Eric Holmstrom — And I’m I’m grateful for your ministry.Rich Birch — Thanks so much for being here today.

If there’s one thing church leaders should be obsessed with, it’s the front door. In this special compilation episode, we’ve pulled together four conversations from leading churches and ministry organizations that are seeing success in helping first-time guests move from curious visitors to fully engaged disciples. The challenge facing churches today is different than it was even a few years ago. Guests are arriving with different motivations, different expectations, and different questions. Churches that continue using yesterday’s assimilation strategies may unintentionally lose people God is already drawing. Don’t miss the four critical lessons every church should consider as they prepare for the fall ministry season. From changing guest motivations to intentional follow-up systems, discipleship pathways, and data-driven care, each conversation offers practical insights that can help churches better connect with the people walking through their doors. People Are Coming to Church Looking for God Greg Curtis shares a remarkable shift he’s seeing among first-time guests, particularly younger adults. Where people once came primarily looking for community, support, or practical life help, many are now arriving already searching for God. In some cases, they’ve already begun reading Scripture, exploring faith, or experiencing spiritual curiosity before ever attending a service. This means churches must be prepared to engage people with greater intentionality from the moment they arrive. Key Takeaway // Many first-time guests are no longer casually checking out church. They’re arriving with genuine questions about God and faith, often after beginning a spiritual journey on their own. Churches must be prepared to meet that curiosity with intentional next steps. Listen to the Full Episode // They’re Looking for God … Don’t Miss Them: Fixing Your Church’s Assimilation Problem with Greg Curtis & Tommy Carreras (March 26, 2026) Follow-Up Can’t Be Left to Chance John Sellers explains how Journey Church creates a clear and repeatable process for helping guests take their next step. Through intentional touchpoints—including a welcoming first interaction, relational next-step environments, and a six-week follow-up process involving texts, emails, phone calls, and personal invitations—the church ensures guests don’t simply attend once and disappear. Consistent follow-up may not be flashy, but it remains one of the most effective growth strategies churches can implement. Key Takeaway // Fast-growing churches rarely rely on a single welcome interaction. They build systems that encourage guests to take multiple steps over several weeks, increasing the likelihood that visitors become connected participants. Listen to the Full Episode // From Guests to Baptisms: Building Clear Next Steps with John Sellers (November 13, 2025)  A Clear Pathway Helps People Keep Moving Ashley Lentz outlines Lutheran Church of Hope’s discipleship pathway, which helps leaders identify where people are spiritually and what their next step should be. Rather than treating every attendee the same, the church intentionally helps people move from seeker to believer, from believer to follower, and ultimately into servant leadership. The framework creates clarity for both staff and volunteers while helping people continue growing long after their first visit. Key Takeaway // People are far more likely to stay engaged when churches provide a defined pathway for spiritual growth. Clarity helps both guests and leaders understand what comes next. Listen to the Full Episode // Clarity Is Kindness: Simplifying Next Steps in a Growing Church with Ashley Lentz (September 18, 2025)  Data Is a Tool for Shepherding, Not Just Administration Ronee de Leon of TouchPoint challenges churches to view their database as more than a record-keeping system. Using her framework of Conviction, Collection, Clarity, and Care, she explains how churches can use data to proactively identify opportunities for discipleship and connection. Effective data practices ensure people do not fall through the cracks and allow churches to provide personalized care at scale. Key Takeaway // Churches cannot effectively shepherd hundreds—or thousands—of people through memory alone. Healthy systems and meaningful data help leaders identify opportunities for connection, care, and discipleship before people drift away. Listen to the Full Episode // From Data to Discipleship: The Four Cs Every Church Needs with Ronee de Leon (April 30, 2026)  This episode serves as a timely challenge for church leaders preparing for the months ahead. As more spiritually curious people walk through church doors, the question isn’t whether guests are coming. It’s whether our systems, pathways, and follow-up processes are prepared to help them stay. The churches seeing the greatest impact are not leaving assimilation to chance. They’re intentionally creating environments where people can move from a first visit to a life transformed by Jesus. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Friends, Rich here from the unSeminary Podcast. Thanks so much for tuning in. We’ve got a very special compilation episode for you.Rich Birch — Listen, I have heard echoes of similar things happening over the last year or so on the podcast, so we’re pulling together these episodes because I want to point out to you critical lessons for your church, particularly here in the summertime, as you think about what are some things that we should be reloading for this fall. Listen, friends, you know, and I know that you and I are a part of the local church and the local church is the only organization in the world that exists for people that are not here yet. You and I should be fanatically focused on the front door.Rich Birch — We should be first-time-guest-obsessed. And on today’s episode, I want to peek in on four discussions that talk about changing dynamics when it comes to connecting with first time guests. And no conversation around this whole area of assimilation would be complete without talking to and listening to Greg Curtis. Rich Birch — If you do not know Greg, where have you been? He’s been at Eastside Church for the last decade running their assimilation work. And he’s really seeing some interesting shifts in particularly young adults when it comes that I keep seeing across the country. And in this clip, he’s going to open up and tell you about a subtle shift that he has seen and some of the changes they’ve made around assimilating people when they come in.Rich Birch — Now, today’s conversation, we’re going to really frame around Greg’s three part model. We talk about the screen to the seat, the seat to the circle, and then the circle to the street. We want you to understand that how we’re connecting with guests today is different than what it looked like five years ago.Rich Birch — It’s definitely different than what it looked like pre-COVID. So let’s listen in first and see if we can catch what Greg is seeing and think about the dynamics that you’re seeing at your church. Listen in to what Greg’s got to say… [Clip 1 Begins]Rich Birch — People get assimilated, get connected. What have you noticed maybe something that’s maybe different in the way people are engaging right now that’s different than maybe even a year or two ago?Greg Curtis — A crescendo over the last two years has been remarkable in its shift towards—this is going to sound crazy because we’re talking to churches—they’re wanting God now. And what I mean by that is prior, we were having to sell the benefits of following Jesus – most growing churches, which there are. And I think it was a compelling thing to share with the culture.Greg Curtis — And so people were coming to church to find community, to find help with parenting, to find support in marriage or to, you know, a variety of different things. And so the draw and what was causing people to engage with church was really, what help in my life? How can I increase the quality of my life? Maybe even get some pretty powerful pain points addressed. Greg Curtis — This has shifted. I’ll put it in the terms of our young adult pastor. His name is Charles. He came to me. He said, Greg, prior to two, three years ago, maybe not even that long, he said young adults were coming, 80% of them to find friends and community, and about 20% to find God.Greg Curtis — He goes, it’s flipped. It’s flipped. Now it’s 80% God and 20% community.Greg Curtis — And that has expressed itself in some remarkable ways. I’ll just throw two out. At the end of last year, I was covering somebody, a pastor who was going to baptize somebody after the service. He had to be gone. So I said, yeah, I’ll cover it. So in our context, I’ll meet that person ahead of time and kind of show them where to sit in the service, when to come out, where the baptistry is, et cetera.Greg Curtis — And I met her. She was 28 years old, named Connie. And I said, as we’re walking through the baptistry, so, you know, I asked these typical questions: how long have you been coming to Eastside, which is my church?Greg Curtis — And she says, oh, I’ve never been to Eastside. I was like, oh, so you’re from our online campus. And she goes, no, I’ve never really heard of Eastside.Greg Curtis — And I said, well, what’s led you to be baptized today? And this was her story. She goes, I grew up in a very non-religious home, and I’ve never been to church. And I vowed I’d never even date a religious person. But I had some friends, three months ago, that invited me to watch The Chosen with them. I didn’t want to.Greg Curtis — I was mad at myself for getting engaged after the first episode, kept watching, decided to buy myself a Bible two months ago. I started reading the Old Testament and New Testament concurrently and decided I love Jesus and I want to follow Him, and I could tell what I needed to do was get baptized. But, get this, I’m the game day operations coordinator for the NFL. So I work on Sundays, and I just Googled who would baptize me on a Saturday. And your form came up, and I filled it out. So here I am.Rich Birch — Wow. That’s amazing. Greg Curtis — Yeah. And I’ll tell you what, she didn’t know, Rich, that this baptism was going to be in front of other people until we were in the water and the whole church was looking at her. Rich Birch — Wow. That’s incredible.Greg Curtis — The questions she had, we’ve remained in touch. The questions she asks are so precious. But I’m telling you, I’ve had a few of those that are similar. That one’s pretty dramatic, but are very similar. No background at all. They’re coming because they’re having a God moment before they get to us.Rich Birch — Yeah. Greg Curtis — And that’s a big shift because God is doing something literally worldwide and in our culture right now that they’re coming to us to find God, and they’re already encountering him in some way, and they need help with that and want it. And that’s a huge shift. [Clip 1 Ends]Rich Birch — Fantastic. Listen, if 80% of the guests are arriving at your church with a God question burning in their heart, the first 60 minutes, what we do every single weekend is critically important. I have seen this over my career.Rich Birch — Listen, I had recently one of those birthdays with a zero on the end. And I can tell you, as someone who’s been three decades into ministry experience, there was a time where people stumbled into our churches. And that’s just frankly not happening anymore.Rich Birch — People are arriving with real questions. And we might have been able to, in a previous generation, entertain them or try to diffuse this idea that we ain’t your mama’s church. But that isn’t where people are at anymore. Rich Birch — They’re coming with real live questions in their heart. They’re not stumbling into your church on Sunday morning because they don’t know what’s going on there. They’re coming looking for real questions.Rich Birch — And you and I, our processes, what we do on Sunday morning has got to meet that intensity. We can’t just hand them a coffee mug and say, we’ll see you next week. We’ve got to follow them up with some fervor and excitement and frankly a bit more intensity than what most churches are doing. Rich Birch — I love this conversation that’s coming up with John Sellers. He’s executive pastor of locations at Journey Church in Central Florida—three campuses with a fourth on the way—and is one of the most consistently fastest-growing churches in the country. Now, listen to what John talks about when he talks about the follow-up process, that they aren’t just leaving it to chance. They are working with intention to move these first time guests and get them plugged in. Rich Birch — The question I have for you is, is this the kind of intensity that you’re following up your first time guests with? Let’s listen in. [Clip 2 Begins]John Sellers — So at our church, every location has a tent. It’s a new here tent. And so the first step that we’re communicating, the clear step on that first or second week is: stop by the tent.John Sellers — Like, I know that’s a big step and we have to remind our serve team. And behind the curtain, that seems simple to us, but like to a new person at a church, even going to a tent or making themselves known by filling out a Connect card, even if it’s digital, like that’s a big step for somebody. John Sellers — And so a lot of our communication’s go to the tent. We’d love to meet you. We’ve got a gift card for you just to celebrate the step of faith you took to be here today. And so once they take that step, it starts us being able to follow up through text messages, emails, phone calls, and really encouraging them to step into our Next Steps class.John Sellers — And so when they step into our Next Steps class, one of the things we’re even constantly trying to think through what we call it because “class” probably isn’t the best way to describe it. And we’re actually revamping it right now. John Sellers — But for us, even that Next Steps class is a round table. It’s relational. It’s getting them around our Next Steps team that wants to hear their story. You know, what brought you through the doors? Wants to begin to hear about maybe what’s on their heart? Where are they at? What’s their next faith step?John Sellers — And so those are the first couple of weeks. If we can encourage them to stop by the tent, that allows us to stay in contact with them relationally. And then the next step would be go to one of our Next Steps classes after a service.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Can we pull apart a bit of the detail there? Just because I know people are wondering this because I get these questions.Rich Birch — So it sounds like when you arrive at the New Year tent, there’s a gift card there. Where’s that gift card for? What is the value of that? And why a gift card? Talk to us about that.John Sellers — Yes. So for now, and we’ve experimented, we’ll change this up like constantly. But right now it’s for a local coffee shop. And it’s literally a $5 gift card. It’s just a thank you to say thank you for coming. John Sellers — It’s a little gift bag. It’s got information about our church, obviously. And it’s just a step. The way we phrase it is we know it’s a big step of faith you took to be here today. And so we just want to celebrate the fact that you made it in the room. And so that’s what it is – $5. John Sellers — On big events, we’ll do a Journey Church cup and make it a little more substantial. But it’s just a $5 gift card to a local coffee shop.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. And I love the thinking behind that, friends, that are listening in, is sometimes what I see churches do, they’ll be like, hey, if you want to get connected, or if you’ve got interested about your Next Steps, or if you’re wondering where to go, drop by the tent outside. People are not asking that question when they first come.Rich Birch — We’ve got to take a celebratory step. And I like what you’re saying. I love that language of we want to celebrate the faith step by being here today. And we want to give you a gift in exchange for that. People will do that for a $5 gift card, or a coffee mug, or whatever. That’s good.Rich Birch — And then the other thing that caught my attention you said was, you said: and we follow up with texts and emails. Talk about how many of that, what’s that communication process look like? There’s another area where I see churches drop the ball all the time.John Sellers — Sure, it’s a variety. There’s a workflow that we use through our database system planning center that is owned by our Weekend Experience team members. But basically, it starts with an email from our lead pastor with a short video for them to watch, a message directly from him.John Sellers — It includes a text message or phone call from the location pastors within two weeks. It includes other text messages and emails. So it lasts about six weeks. And it’s more information about how to take steps at our church. John Sellers — And so some of its vision, a lot of it is geared towards stepping into the Next Steps class. But yes, it’s multiple, and it’s a variety. And it’s over the span of six weeks. And then we even have, you know, workflows built out that, you know, if somebody goes through that six-week process without taking the next step, that periodically we’ll check back in with them. [Clip 2 Ends]Rich Birch — Boring stuff grows churches. I’ve said it before. I’m going to keep saying it.Rich Birch — A monthly Next Steps cadence or New Year cadence, whatever you call it at your church, a $5 gift card may not be exciting, but it’s the kind of thing that we see time and time again at fast-growing churches. But the question is, what happens after week six? Where do we take people beyond this initial connection?Rich Birch — In fact, I’ve seen in some churches that have done extensive studies on this. If people do not get plugged in in the first 100 days, they might come, they might even come back. But if they don’t take a significant step, that is get on a team or in a group in those first 100 days, they will just not connect to your church. Rich Birch — So I want to peek in on a conversation we had with Ashley Lentz. She’s the Connections Pastor at a fantastic church, Lutheran Church of Hope, a multi-site church with seven campuses in Central Iowa. There’s 7,000 people at their one location every single weekend.Rich Birch — And she really takes the longer arc view. Where do we go? It’s really, going back to what Greg talked about, there’s this kind of seat to circle, and then there’s the circle to street. That’s what this conversation is all about. How do we get these people who have taken these first few steps, what are we doing to get them actually plugged in? Let’s listen in to what Ashley has to say. Rich Birch — There’s so much we can learn here. And again, I want you to be thinking about when you think about this fall at your church, are there some things you should be adjusting as we go into the fall? [Clip 3 Begins]Ashley Lentz — One of the tools that we use, and it is very much an internal tool is what I would call it. We call it the Hope Circle. And it is what I would call a discipleship tool or a discipleship pathway.Ashley Lentz — And if I were to say that to our congregation members, they would really have no idea what I’m talking about. It is very internal. But it’s helpful to identify where people are on this Hope Circle.Ashley Lentz — And so the circle starts with being a seeker. At a church our size, we have people every weekend who have zero idea what the church thing is about. They’ve maybe never been introduced to Jesus. Someone just invited them to church. They maybe knew they needed church and walked in the door, but have no idea what to expect. And so they are seeking something that has been missing in their life.Ashley Lentz — And so helping people identify if that’s where you are, here are kind of the very preliminary places that would be helpful for you to start plugging in. As we move around that circle, we get to believers, people who are like, okay, I’m bought into the Jesus thing. I’ve heard the message, I believe, now what? I wanna understand this better. I believe in Jesus. I believe in God. I’m here for it, but I don’t really know the things. Ashley Lentz — So where do we go from there and how do we help them then move into being super excited about Jesus? I don’t just believe, I’m on fire for Jesus. I’m a follower, right? I am all in, my life looks different. I’ve been transformed. How do I follow him? Ashley Lentz — And then how do you serve people in that arena too? Because that’s gonna look different than somebody who’s come in as a seeker looking for Jesus and somebody who’s on fire for Jesus.Ashley Lentz — So how do we move them around the circle? So it’s seeker, believer, follower, and then kind of the last part of our circle is servant leader. How do we move them then into serving and letting the transformed nature of the gospel pour out of them into the world around us?Ashley Lentz — And I would say our secret sauce here at Hope is we love volunteers. Like as we move people around the Hope Circle, I and my colleagues, we want to equip people to lead. So being a servant leader inside these walls, but also outside these walls is really like, that’s what’s attractional to people is letting them know like you’re on fire for Jesus, go tell everyone about it and serve in the arena you find yourself in, whether in the church or outside the church. [Clip 3 Ends]Rich Birch — A pathway you can’t measure is a pathway you cannot improve. Friends, you’ve got a brain problem. Over 200 people, you simply cannot track where people are at in the processes we have talked about before.Rich Birch — Your mind literally cannot hold in place where all of these people are at in their process. And so underneath everything we’ve talked about today, you need a robust approach to data. Rich Birch — Listen, your church database is a care mechanism. It’s just a way we make sure people do not fall through the cracks. And so everything that we’ve talked about in today’s episode needs a robust approach to data and the way you handle data to move people just from a broad, kind of like they’re attending all the way through to caring, ensuring that they are plugged in. So I wanna peek into one final conversation. Rich Birch — Ronee de Leon, she’s the executive director of Partner Church Success at Touchpoint. But outside of that, she’s formerly on staff at a large multi-site church in Columbus, Ohio. And Touchpoint sits across hundreds of churches and Ronee sees the patterns.Rich Birch — Listen, what I want you to listen to carefully here is these four Cs that she talks about. Conviction, collection, clarity, care. And ask your question, are you doing this with your data?Rich Birch — Does your data structure actually allow you to move people along in a way that ensures that we’re actually getting them plugged in? Friends, I don’t want you to miss the opportunity that God’s bringing your way. And this conversation could help you think differently about that, particularly in the next couple of months. [Clip 4 Begins]Ronee de Leon — Let’s alliterate some more. Like I said, I was on church staff for a long time. Rich Birch — Yes, exactly.Ronee de Leon — And it does become memorable, right? So this is a really simple framework that really is more stages. It’s a progression. But even though it’s simple, whether they know it or not, every church is in one of these stages when it comes to data-driven discipleship. Ronee de Leon — And so four kind of Cs of this or stages are conviction, collection, clarity, and care. And I’ll just give a brief description of each of those and then we can go dive in a little bit deeper.Ronee de Leon — But conviction, really the question that we’re answering here is, do you truly believe this matters even when it’s not easy? So leaders believe that shepherding is important, but do we wanna move into doing it proactively? And are we comfortable using data as a tool to do that well? So that’s kind of the conviction piece. Do you really believe that this matters? Ronee de Leon — Collection then, are you committed to consistently gathering the data that’s needed? Not just once, but as a rhythm. It’s hard work, but it is a worthy cause, a valiant effort. Ronee de Leon — Let’s move to clarity real quick. Again, the question we’re answering is, now that you have the data, do you have the insight? Do you really see what it’s telling you? And what are we doing with it?Ronee de Leon — And then the last one here, of course, is where we’re acting on the insights to connect with our people. Will you actually act on the insights and shepherd people or will it stay theoretical? That’s kind of where we’re headed with this. [Clip 4 Ends] Rich Birch — We started this off today talking about how we see this pattern happening across the church. And I think these four episodes really hang incredibly together. Greg Curtis, he really named the moment that we’re in. I really do think that we’re seeing something that is generationally important. And I do not want your church to miss it. Rich Birch — John Sellers, I thought gave a really clear discussion around how we move these people that are arriving. How do we get them to take those first steps and get plugged in? Rich Birch — Then Ashley Lentz, she unpacked what it looked like to go from the seat to the circle, to the circle to the street pathway. What are we doing to actually get people to plug in deep in our community?Rich Birch — And then finally, Ronee brought it home, giving us a measurement layer to really bring the whole thing together with some honesty and truth. Rich Birch — Listen, this is the question: if I was sitting across from you and your staff this week, if I was in your staff meeting, the question I would simply ask is this, which of these four pieces is the weakest in our church as we approach this fall? And what’s the smallest move we could make in the next 30 days to improve where we need to in these areas? Rich Birch — We’ve got links to all of these show notes before. Please stay tuned. We’ve got incredible episodes coming up all summer long and all fall long here at unSeminary. Rich Birch — We’re on a mission to help 100 churches like yours grow by a thousand people by talking about stuff they don’t talk about in seminary. Rich Birch — Thanks so much for being here, friends. We’ll see you next week. Take care.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Tim Foot, CEO of Slingshot Group. With nearly three decades of ministry and leadership experience having worked with thousands of churches, Tim brings deep insight into one of the most critical drivers of church health: your team. In this conversation, we explore what separates stagnant teams from those that create real momentum and how leaders can shift from survival to remarkable impact. Why teams stall out. // After working with thousands of churches, Tim consistently sees the same patterns: unclear expectations, misaligned priorities, lack of structure, and unspoken tension. Many teams are overly task-driven but underdeveloped relationally. Others don’t fully understand how their strengths and weaknesses fit together. The danger of “hero-driven leadership.” // When a church relies too heavily on one standout leader to carry the mission it results in what Tim calls “hero-driven leadership.” While it can produce short-term results, it ultimately leads to burnout, unrealistic expectations, and fragile systems. Leaders often fall into this trap because it feels productive, and even rewarding, to be the one with all the answers. But over time, it limits team development and creates dependency instead of shared ownership. From hero to team. // The future of healthy ministry is team-based leadership. Instead of building ministries around individuals, churches must build systems and cultures where teams thrive together. This requires leaders humbly admitting they don’t have all the answers and a willingness to slow down in order to build alignment. When leaders shift from being the “hero” to developing others, they unlock far greater long-term impact. The seven “key signatures” of remarkable teams. // Tim introduces a framework of seven core areas that every healthy team must develop: conviction, message, culture, roles, systems, friction, and risk. These “key signatures” work together like elements in music, providing structure that leads to a strong, unified outcome. Conviction anchors the mission (“why we exist”), while message communicates that mission clearly. Culture shapes how people experience the team, and roles define how individuals contribute. Systems enable growth, friction drives improvement, and risk fuels breakthrough. Why friction is actually healthy. // One of the most counterintuitive ideas Tim shares is that healthy teams need friction. Many leaders try to eliminate tension, assuming harmony equals health. But in reality, the absence of friction often means important issues are being avoided. Healthy friction leads to better ideas, stronger alignment, and greater innovation. The key is ensuring it doesn’t become personal. When friction turns relationally destructive, it’s unhealthy. But when it stays focused on ideas and outcomes, it becomes a powerful driver of growth. A practical tool for leaders. // To help teams take action, Tim points leaders to a free “team awareness assessment.” This tool helps churches evaluate how they’re doing across the seven key signatures, identifying areas of strength and opportunities for growth. It’s designed to spark meaningful conversations that lead to real change. A final challenge for leaders. // Tim leaves leaders with a simple but powerful reminder: if your mission matters, your team matters more. Churches often focus heavily on the people they’re trying to reach, but neglect the health of the people they’re leading alongside. Sustainable, mission-moving ministry requires both. To learn more about Tim’s book Reaching for Remarkable: The 7 Key Signatures Behind Every Remarkable Team and take the free team assessment, visit reachingforremarkable.com or explore additional resources at slingshotgroup.org. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: TouchPoint As your church reaches more people, one of the biggest challenges is making sure no one slips through the cracks along the way.TouchPoint Church Management Software is an all-in-one ecosystem built for churches that want to elevate discipleship by providing clear data, strong engagement tools, and dependable workflows that scale as you grow. TouchPoint is trusted by some of the fastest-growing and largest churches in the country because it helps teams stay aligned, understand who they’re reaching, and make confident ministry decisions week after week. If you’ve been wondering whether your current system can carry your next season of growth, it may be time to explore what TouchPoint can do for you. You can evaluate TouchPoint during a free, no-pressure one-hour demo at TouchPointSoftware.com/demo. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Listen, listen, listen, pull in close because today’s conversation, I don’t even know your church, but I know that a large portion of your budget is being spent on the thing we talk about. In fact, lots of churches, it’s like half of their budget. And it’s an even larger portion of the outcome of your ministry. It’s incredibly important what we’re talking about today. And so you do not want to miss this. Rich Birch — And we’ve got an expert that has worked with not tens of, not hundreds of, but literally thousands of of churches like yours and wants to help you take steps forward. Excited to have Tim Foot with us. He has nearly 30 years of experience, which I’m not sure how that’s possible, such a young man, as a leader, pastor, coach, speaker, musician in both Australia and North America, bringing a diverse background to his role as the CEO and president of Slingshot Group. If you’re not aware of who Slingshot Group is, they take the guesswork out of nonprofit and church staffing. He’s recently written a book that I’m excited for you to learn more about. But Tim, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.Tim Foot — Rich, it is so glad, it’s so great to be on with you today. I’m excited about this conversation.Rich Birch — So good. I’m I’m excited for it too. Why don’t you kind of give us a bit of the Tim Foot background? Tell us a little bit about about you and kind of give us the how do we end up here in this conversation today?Tim Foot — Yeah, it’s interesting. I often say to people, I had no idea that I’d be on the other side of the world to where I started doing what I’m doing. But this is what happens, Rich, when you say, keep saying yes to God.Tim Foot — Born and raised Tasmanian, worked as a musician and in ministry in Sydney for 10 years after moving from Tasmania, then relocated to Boulder County, Colorado in 2002, been here for 25 years now in ministry at a great church called Lifebridge Christian Church. Built ministry there for 10 years and went bivocationally started working with the Slingshot Group when there was a handful of us doing a handful of staffing and coaching work and then things exploded.Tim Foot — And I really, really hit my sweet spot and saw how God had been preparing me for so many years to work with teams, love teams, love the strategy of teams, love working with people, love the fact that placing the right leader on the right team exponentially moves the mission forward and affects culture in all kinds of ways.Rich Birch — So true.Tim Foot — And so I’ve had all kinds of roles in Slingshot over the years, now get to lead our team of amazing consultants around the US serving so many, and beyond, serving so many ministries and teams move mission forward.Rich Birch — Love it. I’m so glad that, yeah, this is going to a good conversation. You know, one of the things I want to take advantage of is the fact you’re really an expert. You know, you’ve worked with, you and Slingshot have worked with thousands of churches and organizations, and you you really get a chance to see churches at an interesting inflection point.Rich Birch — You know, often when we’re hiring a team member, bringing someone in or trying to develop our teams, you know, we’re thinking about the future and we’re, we’re taking a step back. And like you say, I do think it’s a transformative inflection point that you’re involved in. Rich Birch — So you’re sitting across the table from a lot leaders, and maybe even some leaders who their mission is stalling. Like things aren’t maybe going as well as we would hope. Are yeah there any patterns in that you’re seeing, are there things that you see time and time again in churches that might be holding us back?Tim Foot — Yeah, I immediately thought of a common question we’ll ask teams when we’re brought in when it comes to needing a new person on the team or helping coach leaders. We’re often brought in in crisis moments, moments of transition, but they’re also moments of incredible opportunity.Tim Foot — And we’ll often ask the question, hey, do you want a painkiller or do you want a vitamin? And so often the the team is thinking they want the painkiller, they want the pain to go away. They want to solve the problem, they want to fill the seat, or they want to break through whatever it is they’re struggling with. But honestly, deep down, they need to start a regimen of vitamins to help them get to a healthy place to move the mission forward.Tim Foot — We often will see an unawareness that the wrong people are around the table. Or an unawareness that they need other leaders around the table to help them move forward, whether it be vocational paid leaders or volunteers.Tim Foot — We’ll often see misalignment and a lack of focus on the right things. Communication misfires around why the mission actually matters. We’ll often teams see teams that are task-driven at the expense of relationships.Tim Foot — And then an unawareness of strengths and weaknesses and how they complement each other, how they help move you forward or how they hold you back. Other patterns are a lack of structure to support the work. Elephants in the room, taboo topics, fear around failure that leads to lack of innovation. So many different patterns we’ll see and be able to diagnose and say, hey, we need to have conversation around that because I think uncorking that will help you accelerate the mission.Rich Birch — That’s cool. One of the things I love by reputation that I love about Slingshot is I love that you’re asking those bigger questions that it’s not just like, okay, how do we get to let’s just, let’s get the next hire done and move on.Rich Birch — It’s like, you know, you’re, you’re trying to ask those bigger questions and which I, that which I think, you know compliment to you and your organization that you’re trying to. Because we know when we need the painkillers, but really we need to take some good vitamins over an extended period of time to make our things more healthy for sure. Hmm.Tim Foot — You know, Rich, when we jumped into staffing work almost 20 years ago now, we had to educate the church on the need to have outside advice around staffing. But it was a lot of art and not as much science.Tim Foot — And now we’ve developed so much science around the art with with things like our candidate match tool. When you’re looking for a leader, you have to align around what you actually want in that new leader. So many teams will say, hey, we need this, this, this, this, this, this. And in the end, they’re looking for a purple unicorn. And that’s not going to help.Rich Birch — Right.Tim Foot — And we’ll talk about that as we get deeper in the conversation.Rich Birch — Right. Yes.Tim Foot — But Rich, last time I looked, unicorns are still mythical creatures. Rich Birch — True. Tim Foot — And so working working out what you actually need… Rich Birch — Right. Tim Foot — …and getting an awareness around alignment with who’s around the table may actually change your idea of what you’re looking for. Alignment is so important in getting an awareness of what our strengths and weaknesses are. Are we focused on the right thing? And are we actually moving the mission forward right now or is it stalled out?Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, that’s good. One of your consultants, that remember once I was in a conversation about that very issue and and you know we had really lofty goals for what we were trying to hire. And and they they walked us through that conversation where it was like, okay, well, let’s let’s think about how many of these people are actually out there.Rich Birch — So and you list off hat half a dozen things that we were looking for and you cut back and you think, well, how many people actually work in the church? How many people have worked as long as we want to work and have had experience that we did and have done the stuff that we want to do?Rich Birch — And you literally get down to like, Well, there might be three people, you know, like, you know, and so anyways, that’s, that’s, that’s so true.Tim Foot — And actually… Rich Birch — You… Yeah, go ahead.Tim Foot — …that’s what we’ll often say. There are maybe three to five people when you have all of these filters in place, they can actually fill this role.Rich Birch — That’s true.Tim Foot — And that’s why you need to focus on ministry and you need to let us focus on finding those people.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Yeah, that’s good. That’s great. And yeah, and if there’s three to five and one of them is Jesus, the other is the Holy Spirit. So it’s like, you know, you’re down to just a very few. You… Tim Foot — And Rich, let’s not talk about why many, many teams wouldn’t hire Jesus these days.Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. That’s a whole other topic. that’s That’s great. Now, you’ve said something once that caught my attention, and it’s in my head has been branded to you. And it’s that most of us were trained on a model, a leadership model that nobody named out loud, that everyone, that we’ve all absorbed.Rich Birch — What is that model? You know, what it look like? And I know when you named this, I started seeing this everywhere I looked. I was like, oh, wow, I can see this in multiple different places in myself and in our organization. What what is this model?Tim Foot — Yeah, I mean, the the model we see is hero-driven leadership. It’s when we rely too much on individuals to actually carry the mission. And I think the cracks have happened.Tim Foot — I mean, we’ve seen it, Rich, you and I are similar ages. I think the cracks are happening generationally. The builders and boomers were wired differently for a different time and culture. And us Gen Xers, we can code switch. I mean, we we see we see that happening all the time. And as we stepped into leadership, the cracks started to appear.Tim Foot — I mean, we see it every week. Another leader burning out, doing stupid things because of too much pressure. Then millennials and Gen Z are now leading in a new way that we need to embrace.Tim Foot — And so I think we’re seeing those cracks around that hero dependence, and we’re starting to see the need more than ever to have a team awareness, a holistic approach, or we’re just going to have leaders continue to burn out.Tim Foot — And we sit we see it around unrealistic hiring expectations, a lack of support for great leaders when they’re hired, a lack of development.Tim Foot — Hero dependence is a terrible staffing and growth strategy and becomes a massive trap when it comes to a number of the key focus areas or patterns we’ve seen that healthy teams focus on and move mission forward.Rich Birch — Yeah. See, this is the thing when you, I heard you say that once and it, it literally, I sat up and I was like, oh man, I’ve seen that in my own, you know, my own hiring. I’ve seen that in the way I’ve talked with, you know, I see the leaders around me. You see these people who they’ve kind of built the entire ministry around themselves and they’ve built, it’s like, it doesn’t work if they don’t, it’s like, they’re such a unique individual. They have to lift it all. Rich Birch — But what makes that model so sticky? Like, why do we keep coming back to that? Why? Even if we know like intellectually in our heads, yeah, that’s not a good idea. It feels like we just keep coming back to this same thing time. In fact, we actually reward it. We’ll be like, wow, isn’t that great? This person’s amazing. And we just kind of keep moving on. Why is that?Tim Foot — It’s the shiny object trap. I mean, that that the the shiny object, aka the the talented leader that we think is going to catapult the ministry. Often we see it in in hiring conversations when a particular organization wants to go after somebody that’s been in at a much bigger organization than them. And often that person, if if they can attract them, will come in with a playbook that isn’t uniquely suited to the organization they’re stepping into. Or there aren’t systems to support that new leader and the growth that’s going to happen. And burnout happens at every level. But but we both know, Rich, busy work makes us feel productive. But is it the right work?Rich Birch — That’s so true.Tim Foot — And and we know that we can be ourselves the shiny object. We we want to it feels good to be the hero. It feels good to be the one that’s solving problems. Rich Birch — Sure.Tim Foot — It feels good to be the one that has all the answers. Rich Birch — Right.Tim Foot — And I think that’s one of the biggest threats in healthy leadership today is feeling like you have to have all the answers. Because I think one of the most powerful statements from healthy leaders and healthy teams is, hey, we don’t know what to do next. Because it actually opens up the room for new thought. It opens up the room for collaboration. And it opens up the room for teamwork. Tim Foot — But it’s easier to move quick. It’s easier to move quick and be surrounded by people who agree and play it safe.Rich Birch — So true.Tim Foot — And then down the road, we realized that we weren’t growing in every sense of that word. And the mission was stalled out. We know we often have to slow down, re-strategize, look at who’s around the table, work out how we work together to move faster in the long term. We have to be vulnerable to make a team work. And sometimes it requires us to actually help others win than focus on heroes. Tim Foot — I mean, you think about a winning sports team. It’s not about just one person out there doing all the work. We’ve got to work together as a team. You know, it’s it’s it’s how do we work together and have had have less dependence on that shiny object, those standout leaders or those heroes?Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. I love that. I remember years ago, we had a coach come in and as a lead team, and this basically spent a week with us and then, you know, try to help us get better in our leading of our people. And I remember at the end of the week, the leader who we brought in said you answer way too many questions. And I was like what do you mean by that? They’re like, you need to ask more questions and you answer. You’re you’re putting yourself way too much in the middle of all of this and you’re not letting…And I was like, oh that’s a good insight. You know, we’re not raising up other people we’re trying to uh you know make it all about us rather than about our teams. Well, I’d love to talk about your book.Rich Birch — So the title is Reaching for Remarkable: The Seven key signatures behind every Remarkable Team. Let’s start with the word Remarkable. You literally have it twice in your title and subtitle. Why Remarkable? And how does that relate to hero? Because I was like, isn’t that the same thing? Like, isn’t it couldn’t this be reaching for the heroic? So unpack that.Tim Foot — I love that word remarkable. And it’s always been our mission at Slingshot. We build remarkable teams through staffing and coaching because your mission needs a remarkable team to move it forward. Tim Foot — Jesus left us with the most remarkable mission. And but it wasn’t enough. He needed a team to move it forward. And if Jesus needed a team to move it forward, we need to move it forward as a team.Rich Birch — Right.Tim Foot — And so we’ve all got these unique expressions of that remarkable mission. But if that mission matters, your team matters more. Rich Birch — That’s good.Tim Foot — And so when it comes to Remarkable, it’s about the mission. It all comes back to the mission. And we never fully arrive, Rich. We’re always reaching.Rich Birch — That’s good.Tim Foot — We’ve always got to be focusing on the right things, doing the deep work of of of reimagining, reinventing, and re-moving forward to reach for remarkable momentum when it comes to our mission. But we’ve got to focus on the team and the right the right areas to move that mission forward.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. So you actually talk about these, there’s these seven key signatures. Can you take a little bit of time and just unpack those? We won’t be able to get into all of them, but kind of talk us through how does it hang together as kind of a big idea?Tim Foot — Well, give you a little bit of context behind why they’re key signatures. You mentioned it in the intro, in a former life, I was a working musician and I would do solo gigs. It was my tentmaking job to do ministry back in Australia. Rich Birch — Right.Tim Foot — I would work three to five nights a week as a musician. And I always had way more fun working with other musicians in a team setting, because ah a band is essentially a team. And my best experiences, Rich, was when I was on stage with other musicians who were often better than me, but I was leading the band. We all lifted each other. And to achieve remarkable results, there was structure to it.Tim Foot — I mean, you know, there’s structure to music. There’s harmony and there’s rhythm and there’s key signatures. There’s tracks to run on that allow us to have a remarkable output. Rich Birch — That’s good.Tim Foot — And so as I move from that world into team strategy world, team specialist world, building teams world, I realized, hey, there are also tracks to run on as a team to reach for health and reach for remarkable, a remarkable output and remarkable momentum. And so that’s where we came up with these seven key focus areas that we call the seven key signatures behind every remarkable team.Tim Foot — And they’re a pathway, they work together. And I’ll run through them quickly. And then we can unpack what you what you want to unpack with the time that we have left, Rich.Tim Foot — But though, and they’re simple. I mean, these are patterns that I’ve observed over the last 16 years staffing teams, but the last 30 years growing in teams, learning from teams, leading teams. I mean, you and I both grew up in in church, Rich, and I learned a lot of of leadership lessons from being a volunteer on teams in in in my late teens and and early 20s, so much.Rich Birch — Yes, 100%.Tim Foot — But these patterns, this pattern or these key signatures start with number one, conviction. Conviction, which is a shared sense of why you exist and what you’re called to do. It’s the why behind the what. It’s the Simon Sinek. People buy why you do, not what you do. So that’s number one is conviction. Tim Foot — Number two is a message, a compelling and consistent way of communicating what matters most because, Rich, everything communicates. What’s the story our leadership is communicating? What we say, what we don’t say, our actions, our systems and processes. What story is it communicating? That’s number two. Tim Foot — Number three is culture, the values and behaviors that shape the soul of our team. How are people experiencing your ministry organization or your team?Tim Foot — Number four is roles, unique contributions for remarkable impact. Roles that clarify how we work together. Tim Foot — Number five is systems, which is scalable design for remarkable growth. Systems scale our mission. Tim Foot — Number six is friction because healthy friction moves the mission forward. How do we embrace healthy friction for growth? Tim Foot — And then the last one, number seven, and these all build on each other, is risk, which is bold moves that drive remarkable outcomes, initiatives that lead to breakthrough, strategic risk, not blind gamble. So those are the seven.Rich Birch — Love it. And you know friends, i I do think I would highly recommend that you pick up copies of this book. To me, when I when I saw this, to me, this feels like the kind of book that we should read together as a leadership team. Like, hey, let’s pull this together. You know maybe you’re looking for a fall thing to do with your leadership team. This would be a great book for you to pick up and go together. Rich Birch — There’s a couple I would love to tease out a little bit. I’d love you to pull out for us. Help us understand. You differentiate between conviction and message, two different things. I think lots of times we might collapse those into one. Why are they two separate? Help us understand the difference between those two.Tim Foot — Absolutely. Conviction, again, is why we do what we do. Without shared conviction, you won’t move the mission forward. There won’t be a reason behind initiatives. They’ll fall flat. Rich Birch — Right.Tim Foot — There won’t be a reason behind the message you’re communicating. That’s why they’re different. So conviction is what keeps us in on the days we want to quit.Tim Foot — I mean, think about the early church in Acts 4. It’s a great, best example of conviction. Peter declaring in Acts 4:20, we cannot help but speak about what we’ve seen and heard. They didn’t just believe. They acted. It drove every decision.Tim Foot — If the disciples were just compliant, when Jesus ascended, they would have scattered. But because they were convicted, they ah nearly all of them gave their very lives for the mission. Conviction is our North Star. It’s It’s like calling. it’s It’s what keeps you the days, keeps you in it, the days you want to quit. And Rich, we know there’s going to be plenty of days you to quit. Tim Foot — Message, however, is is the story we’re communicating. It’s how we hire, fire, onboard, develop. It’s how we communicate our conviction and our overall mission. And in the book, we list a bunch of traps for each of these seven key signatures. And we can chat about some of the most common traps. But a common trap for for message is assumption. Rich Birch — It’s good.Tim Foot — We assume people understand and care like we understand and care. Rich Birch — Right.Tim Foot — And we don’t ask enough questions. I mean, it’s why Jesus’ ministry was full of questions, Rich. Rich Birch — Right. Right.Tim Foot — Because he was he was cementing conviction. I mean, Jesus asked the best questions and rarely gave the answers. He lived the answers and he teased the answers out because that’s what led to conviction. That’s why they build upon each other. Tim Foot — You can’t have a story without conviction. You can’t have a message without conviction. And you can’t have a healthy message unless you are asking the right questions to make sure people are hearing and understanding it. Tim Foot — Did you like like did you understand what I just communicated? What did you just hear that I that I said?Rich Birch — Right.Tim Foot — Why why are why are you so convicted to by our mission?Rich Birch — Yeah.Tim Foot — Why are you committed to it? So many great questions.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s good.Tim Foot — The book is full of questions too. I’m a I’m a serial question asker. They used to call me “Quiz” when I was a teenager because I asked so many questions.Rich Birch — Yeah.Tim Foot — And it wasn’t until later that a mentor and co-founder of Slingshot, Stan Endicott—I think you know him, Rich—that he he convinced me that my proclivity for asking so many questions was actually a spiritual gift and not a special need.Rich Birch — Yeah. Tim Foot — Because questions, questions move conversations forward.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yep. Yeah, it’s true. It’s so good. And yeah, as I’ve shifted into full-time coaching, I have found, yeah, like that the the skill of asking a good question, it’s like, you know, I think the best moments I have with the people I’m working with are when we’re, I’m asking questions and they’re discovering, they’re tripping on to their own answers that maybe are a little different even than I would have. But just asking good questions, super important.Rich Birch — Okay. Another one that stood out to me of the, and again, friends, you’re going read all this. Obviously we can’t cover this in just, you know, half an hour conversation. But talk to me about friction, healthy friction. Tim Foot — Yeah. Rich Birch — So I literally have said as an executive pastor, my job was to remove friction from the organization. And so when you say, oh, you lots of us are trying to remove it. I was like, ouch, that’s me.Rich Birch — Because I think that’s, ah you know, I would I want to find places where we’re stuck and say, how do we get those unstuck and push this thing forward? So talk to me about why I’m wrong about friction.Tim Foot — I was there too, Rich. I was absolutely there. But when I get to number six, when we’re speaking on this or teaching on this, I will often say, hey number six is a wait, what? Tim Foot — I thought this was the sign of an unhealthy team. I used to think that. I used to think that the harmonious teams were the healthy ones, that when I walked into a context where there was all harmony with the team, that it was there was healthy, the absence of friction was healthy. But it’s not. It’s a sign of unhealth. Tim Foot — And I’m talking, there’s two kinds of friction, healthy and unhealthy. I’m talking about healthy friction. I mean, you think about a car and how the rubber meets the road, causes friction, moves the car forward. If you don’t have friction in your team, your mission isn’t going on anywhere.Tim Foot — It’s interesting, Zippia workplace survey found out that 76% of employees in the workplace avoid conflict, which is a real problem because healthy friction sharpens and aims teams, while avoiding conflict leads to complacency and stagnation.Tim Foot — Teams where members are passionately embracing friction will not only push through and forward to great results, they’ll attract and retain, which is really important, they’re going attract and retain top leaders. It’s where the mission truly comes alive and evolves to all it can be. Good leaders, rich, know to allow it. They know not to control it, but closely monitor it.Tim Foot — We get to decide if the tension or friction we allow is healthy or unhealthy. We call this the loaded gun of the seven key signatures, because when this gun goes off, it either breaks through a door or a wall that you needed to break through, or somebody gets hurt. And good leaders know how to monitor that and help it break through and not damage other leaders.Rich Birch — Yeah, let’s double click on that. Help me understand. So yeah, I’m going with you. I can see what you’re saying. You know, healthy friction, you know, unhealthy friction, good friction, bad friction. So give me an example. Rich Birch — You walk into it, you’re working with a ah church and there’s some telltale signs of, friction that’s that’s negative, that’s actually pulling the organization back, that’s that could be potentially hurting, or maybe has gone too far, or what’s, I’m not sure the best way to say that. Versus, hey, no, here’s some here’s some good friction that’s actually some good heat here that’s pushing the tires forward. Help us, what does that look like?Tim Foot — When when it becomes personal, Rich, that’s always the way you know it’s trending towards unhealthy. We’ll get to it in a minute, but we’ve got a team assessment on our website now around these seven key signatures, and we talk about unhealthy, inconsistent, functional, remarkable.Tim Foot — Most most teams live in that functional space. If you’re below unhealthy, it’s trending toxic, and that’s when you need ah that’s when you need the 4Sight group and Jenni Catron to come I mean, do some some deep, deep culture work. Rich Birch — Right.Tim Foot — I’m all about our ecosystem. I know you are too, Rich. It’s like when you need the deeper work, then you need the specialist. Rich Birch — Sure, sure.Tim Foot — But right now you’ve got the general practitioner. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah.Tim Foot — But but when it gets when it gets personal, you know that that’s unhealthy friction. Rich Birch — That’s good. Right.Tim Foot — And let’s go back to um the the harmony piece. Because that’s one of the traps when it comes to friction. it’s It’s the harmony trap. And it’s like it’s you wanting there to be you know violins and and and and birds singing and for everybody to be loving each other. That’s also a sign that there is unhealthy friction. Rich Birch — Right. Tim Foot — Because there’s things lurking that have been pushed down below the surface that are going to come out sideways that if you had just dealt with it straight away, it actually could have become momentum for your mission. It’s the unspoken influences trap. it’s the It’s the elephants in the room.Rich Birch — Right.Tim Foot — It’s what everybody’s thinking about, but nobody’s talking about. That’s going to that that’s gonna be insidious and it’s going to chip away at the health of your team. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Tim Foot — And it’s gonna become unhealthy friction. And so that’s a great question to ask. And that’s in the book too. What’s every thinking about, nobody’s talking about? Because that’s what we need to engage.Tim Foot — Now, if we think that’s going to lead to unhealthy friction, let’s have the the conversations outside of the meeting. So that when we get to the conversations inside of the meeting, we can engage this as healthy friction that will actually address the topic and will move us forward rather than becoming personal and eroding relationships.Rich Birch — That’s good. Yeah, that question, what’s everybody thinking about that nobody’s talking about? That’s powerful. And I can see, yeah, that even even the organizations I’ve led, you can see where there’s seasons where we try to push away that friction. nd that can be just super negative. And it’s like this, we’re all just in la-la land. We’re all just, you know, can see that for sure. Tim Foot —Yeah.Rich Birch — So you wrote this book, you put this resource together. help me understand how you’re hoping it will help our, our churches. You know, I’m picture, I’m a church of a thousand people. Maybe I’m the executive pastor. I’ve got a team of 12 to 15 people on my team. And how how could, how could this be a helpful resource for us?Tim Foot — Well, this I believe this is the most important work we need to be doing, Rich, because if your mission matters, your team matters more. So often we get so focused on the people we’re serving that we forget the people we’re serving with.Tim Foot — And if we’re stalling out mission, mission-wise, then we’re not moving forward. And that’s not and we’re not being obedient to God’s call. And so what I’m hoping is, I mean, personally, our kingdom first principle at Slingshot is to leave teams better than than the way we found them. And the last thing we want to do is place great leaders on unhealthy teams.Tim Foot — So what we’re hoping is that teams are going to focus around these seven alignment areas and start to move mission forward, attract great leaders, retain great leaders. When we place, I mean, I you and I have both had healthy long-term ministries at churches, and it is a massive blessing when you, if God wills it, and you stay somewhere long term. I want other people to experience that. And that happens when the right leaders are placed on the right team.Tim Foot — So what I’m hoping churches do is they take our team awareness assessment on on our website, reachingforremarkable.com, which is attached to slingshotgroup.org. And they get a sense of, okay, where what where might we need attention in these seven key areas? Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s good.Tim Foot — Because it heat maps, it gives you percentages, you can take it as a team. And then to start the real important conversations.Tim Foot — I mean, I’ve been in rooms with this work, Rich, where you start to see teams have conversation around alignment and and teams that were that were stale or leaders that were burnt out start to get a glimmer of hope. Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s good.Tim Foot — That, oh, if we start to have these conversations around these areas, if we walk this pathway, if we focus in these areas where we’re struggling right now, we’re going to start to see results.Tim Foot — I mean, I even think about the key signature of systems. You know, it’s systems that scale remarkable growth. If we’re not building systems to to accommodate the growth that we keep praying for, God’s not going to bring the increase. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s true. Tim Foot — Because God isn’t going to bring growth if it’s going to hurt us. We have to be building the right kind of systems to support our teams and leaders so that the growth can come. It’s a stewardship issue. Rich Birch — Yes, yep.Tim Foot — So what I’m hoping happens in churches all over the place is that they start to focus on these key signatures and see mission momentum results that moves them forward as an organization.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Why don’t you tell us, you’ve mentioned it, but tell us a little bit more about the team awareness assessment. Give us like a bit of a, you know, you’ve kind of given us an overview there. Give us a little bit more why we should take that test and give us that URL again that we can send people to.Tim Foot — It’s reachingforremarkable.com and it’s it’s literally 10 minutes or less. Rich Birch — Right.Tim Foot — And it’s free as a leader. You can jump in and take it or you can sign up and and take it as a team. And it gives you obviously the team percentage on each of these key signatures. but also your own results. And when we’ve worked with real high-performing teams, it’s fascinating to watch these great leaders compare their individual percentage on each of these key signatures with their entire team and just to see alignment start to happen and the right conversations to happen.Tim Foot — Because we want to be able to focus in on where alignment is needed most. It may be real simple, Rich. Most teams live in that functional space. Rich Birch — Sure. Tim Foot — Functional’s fine.Rich Birch — Yeah.Tim Foot — But it’s not going to get remarkable results. Rich Birch — Yeah.Tim Foot — And our mission is too important. We have to focus on team alignment to move it forward.Rich Birch — Yeah. It’s so good. Yeah. I was talking to a a leader recently of a very large church and they were saying, you know, I just feel like, I feel like we got a go Pro. And what he was saying is exactly what you’re saying is like, Hey, we we’re we’re fine. We’re functioning.Tim Foot — Right. Right.Rich Birch — But man, we want to go remarkable. We want to go from just just because we can do this thing week in, week out in their case, have thousands of people show up, tens of thousands of people show up. But it’s like, that’s not enough. We got it. But the mission’s too important. We’re trying to reach people. How do we go remarkable? Which to me, I think picking up a copies of these books as a team would be a great first step. Rich Birch — Where do people, where can people pick this up? Where can they get your book if they’re looking for that? I’m assuming Amazon, but is there anywhere else we want to send them?Tim Foot — No, Amazon’s a place to go. Rich Birch — Yeah, that is the bookseller apparently.Tim Foot — I mean, it’s we know these days where wherever where everybody’s going, Amazon’s the way. And I would just add to Rich that as a leader, you want to know. This is information you want to have.Rich Birch — Yes.Tim Foot — We’ve talked so much about self-awareness. And if we’re in leadership, we need to show up to our team self-awareness. So many profiles. Rich Birch — Yep.Tim Foot — We don’t talk enough about team awareness. You need to know as a leader if you’re moving your mission forward or where you might be stalling out because it’s too important. And these seven things, as I said earlier, Rich, they’re not they’re not rocket science. Tim Foot — I mean, I like to I like to couch it this way: Conviction shapes the heart. Message shapes the voice. Culture shapes the atmosphere. Role shape contribution. Systems shape sustainability. Friction shapes growth. Risk shapes the future. And that’s why I hope you’ll dig into this with us. Rich Birch — Love it. Tim Foot — Because we want to see the kingdom move forward and we want to see churches full of healthy teams that not only great leaders want to come and be part of, great volunteers want to be a part of and help move this forward.Rich Birch — That’s so good. Well, I think that’s a great place to end it. I was like, man, that’s, I’m like, I want to preach. Amen, brother. That’s fantastic. If people were, so we’ll send them to Amazon. We’ll put a link in the show notes for that. If people want to track with you or with Slingshot, where do we want to send them online to connect as well?Tim Foot — Slingshotgroup.org is our company website. And there’s a bunch of great stories there. There’s places that you can engage. We would love you to be in our ecosystem. And yeah, you can jump over there to reachingforremarkable.com. And we would love to come alongside you and help you continue to move forward in the unique ways that God has called you to.Rich Birch — Well, Tim, it’s great to see you. Tim Foot — You too.Rich Birch — We were just remarking before, we had dinner together there a couple months ago. That was fun, but it was fun to put the recording on today and connect a little bit. Appreciate you, brother. Thanks so much for being here today.Tim Foot — Thanks for having me, Rich.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by John Plake, Chief Innovation Officer and Editor-in-Chief of the State of the Bible research at the American Bible Society. With decades of experience as a pastor, missionary, professor, and researcher, John brings a unique perspective on how people are actually engaging with Scripture and what we should do about it. The “movable middle” is growing. // One of the most significant insights from recent research is the rise of what John calls the “movable middle”—millions of people who are open to the Bible but not yet engaged with it. This group has grown by approximately nine million people in recent years. They are curious, interested, and even positive toward Scripture, but they lack the tools, confidence, or guidance to engage it meaningfully. This represents a massive opportunity for churches willing to step in and help. People want a guide. // Through focus groups and research, John discovered that many people in the movable middle feel intimidated by the Bible. They struggle with language, context, and navigation. But perhaps most striking is they want help. Contrary to what some leaders might assume, they are not rejecting the church as a guide. In fact, many say, “If we can’t trust the church to help us understand the Bible, what good is it?” This creates a clear invitation for churches to step into a more relational, guiding role in discipleship. A surprising discipleship gap. // One of the most sobering findings is that nearly half of weekly church attenders are not regularly engaging Scripture on their own. While churches invest heavily in preaching and programming, many people are not developing personal habits of Bible engagement. John suggests that churches often focus on delivering content rather than equipping people to engage Scripture themselves. The result is a gap between what happens on Sunday and what happens in everyday life. From teaching to equipping. // If churches want to close that gap, they must shift from being primarily content providers to equipping environments. This means helping people develop the skills, habits, and confidence to read and apply Scripture on their own. It also requires understanding the real barriers people face, like time constraints, confusion, or lack of community support, and addressing those barriers with practical solutions. A new tool for churches. // To help leaders take action, the American Bible Society has developed the “Next Step for Church” assessment. This free tool allows churches to measure spiritual health, Bible engagement, and key leadership behaviors within their congregation. Within a few weeks, leaders receive a detailed, data-driven report highlighting strengths, challenges, and suggested next steps. Data that leads to discipleship. // John emphasizes that data is not an end in itself; it’s a tool for better shepherding. By listening to their congregation at scale, leaders can identify patterns, confirm instincts, and prioritize what matters most. The assessment surfaces both what’s working and where growth is needed, giving churches a clear path forward. It also connects individuals to personalized Scripture engagement resources, helping them take their next step spiritually. Why Scripture engagement matters most. // Nothing has a greater impact on spiritual growth than a person’s relationship with the Bible. In fact, Scripture engagement accounts for a significant portion of overall spiritual health. When people consistently engage with God’s Word, transformation follows—affecting beliefs, behaviors, and relationships. Signs of hope for the future. // Despite broader cultural challenges, John sees encouraging trends, especially among younger generations. Millennials and Gen Z show increasing openness to Scripture, even if they are still exploring. While overall trends may appear flat, meaningful change is happening beneath the surface. For churches willing to engage this moment, there is real opportunity for impact. To explore the research further or access the free church assessment, visit church.nextstep.bible and begin discovering how your church can better equip people to engage Scripture every day. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe Do you feel like your church’s or school’s facility could be preventing growth? Are you frustrated or possibly overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that you could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs? Well, the team over at Risepointe can help! As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead you to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Your mission should not be held back by your building. Their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to incorporate creative design solutions to help move YOUR mission forward. Check them out at risepointe.com and while you’re there, schedule a FREE call to explore possibilities for your needs, vision and future…Risepointe believes that God still uses spaces…and they’re here to help. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. I am so glad that you have decided to tune in today. This is one of those episodes that there’s a great resource in it that going to want to make sure you engage with. There’s super helpful content. Plus it’s about an area that I know so many of us are thinking about, we’re wondering about, we’re asking questions about. Rich Birch — So super excited to have John Plake with us today. He is the chief innovator ah innovation officer and editor-in-chief of the State of the Bible Research Series, which comes from the American Bible Society. And they’re on a mission to make the Bible available to every person in a language and format each can understand and afford so that all may experience its life-changing message. ABS has really a whole bunch of different tools and approaches, and we’re excited kind of expose a little bit more about that today. John has been in ministry over 30 years. We’ll just call it over 30 years. And it served as a pastor, missionary, professor, researcher. John, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.John Plake — Thanks so much for having me today. It’s great to be with you.Rich Birch — Why don’t you fill in the picture a little bit? Tell us a little bit about your background. You know, what brings you to your current work?John Plake — Yeah. Closer to 40 years now. Rich Birch — Nice. Yeah, yeah. That’s great.John Plake — It’s a little uncomfortable to talk about that.Rich Birch — That’s great.John Plake — Yeah. You know, I start out like a lot of people in ministry. I grew up in a home that ministry was central. Actually, both my grandfathers were ministers. My father was a minister. Ministry is kind of the family business in a way, but I really did sense a direction from God when I was about 15 years old to to pursue full-time ministry.John Plake — There was some detail around that. Ended up going to Bible college and and then started what turned out to be about nine years of full-time pastoral service. And I hadn’t been in that for very long before I realized that everything I learned in Bible College was preparing me to serve a generation that no longer existed in a culture that was gone. John Plake — And I thought, my goodness, I know God’s word pretty well. And mean, I’m a lifelong learner of God’s word. I love the Bible. And yet, didn’t really know culture very well. And I didn’t develop those tools until just years and years of practice, some missionary service, wonderful teachers at at Wheaton College and graduate school and and just a lifelong journey of learning.John Plake — So at American Bible Society, when I got here, the State of the Bible, program or this research project was already underway. And we’d been helped out by the Barna Group, which does some wonderful foundational work. And eventually it just kind of grew up and it got to a place where we had an internal team that was running it ourselves, now in collaboration with the National Opinion Research Council or NORC at the University of Chicago. We just do, I think, what is the largest ongoing study of Americans’ relationship with the Bible and faith and the church. And we get to talk about it all the time. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love it.John Plake — So, I mean, this is the best job in the world.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. It’s it’s great research, something that I think should be on the kind of list of things that we need to be paying attention to. It’s been a gift to the church for so long and something that we should continue to to pay attention through. Now, let’s talk about you specifically. You spent three plus decades. I didn’t want to say almost 40. You know, I’m not saying that. I’m not saying that. I could say that, you know, a couple years ago, I clicked across one of those numbers with a zero on the end as my birthday. And ever since then, I’m a little sensitive about the the age thing. Rich Birch — So anyways, As a ministry, missionary professor, researcher, you’ve done a lot. How does wearing all of those hats, what do you what does that bring to you as you come to the data? How does that impact you as you think about really the state of the Bible research?John Plake — Yeah, you know, I think research can be dull. You know, it can sound like it’s all about writing questions or it’s all statistics and numbers. But for me, the research is all about the people. Rich Birch — So true.John Plake — It’s all about the people in our communities and in our churches that we’re trying to understand better so we can serve them well with the gospel. I, for years, I’ve used the analogy that that being in gospel ministry is like being a human bridge across a river. I grew up not very far from the Mississippi River in the St. Louis area, and there was a big 100-year flood when I was early on in ministry. And I mean, none of the bridges worked anymore. You couldn’t get from one side to the other.John Plake — And I thought, you know, that’s a tragedy that I encountered sometimes in ministry where maybe I was deeply rooted in one bank of the river, the text, but I wasn’t necessarily deeply rooted in the other bank of the river, which was the context.John Plake — And it’s this lived experience of the people that I was I was serving. And that I wanted to serve in my community, but I needed to understand them better. So I wasn’t just spouting you know Aristotelian logic to them. Or I wasn’t just coming at them with the pat answers that I’d learned. Like I’d never heard anybody in my life walk into my office and say, Pastor John, you got to tell me, what can you describe hamartiology to me from. You know like I had to learn that in school, but that’s not what people struggle with. Rich Birch — That’s so true. Yeah. John Plake — They had totally different questions and I needed to love them and honor them enough to understand their questions and answer them responsibly and reliably from the pages of scripture.Rich Birch — Yeah, love it. Okay, well, we’re going to dig into a little bit of just a couple of the findings just to kind of, we’re trying to whet your appetite, friends, to take steps towards this. So the 2025 data showed, and we’ve seen this, a real bump in Bible engagement, particularly among millennials and men. If I’m reading it correctly, though, we saw 2026, a shift happen, maybe back down. And so what’s going on? Actually, I heard another sociologist in a kind of a related field that was about church attendance talked about the dead cat bounce, that it was like, you know, which I thought, oh, that’s a, but there’s a similarity going on here. Pull this, this finding apart. Help us understand this.John Plake — Yeah, apologies to cat lovers out there.Rich Birch — Yes, exactly.John Plake — We were we were hoping, you know, I think we were really hoping. We looked at 2025. We saw that men in particular were leaning into the Bible in ways we hadn’t seen recently. Millennials doing the same thing. There there were some interesting numbers in 2025. And so when the 2026 numbers came to my desk in late January, I thought, I hope we’re extending I hope it’s going to be a trend. But it wasn’t. It was a blip.John Plake — And there’s more to it, though, than just the fact that scripture engagement didn’t go up. It also didn’t go down. And the level of people in America who are Bible disengaged, meaning they never pick up the Bible on purpose at all, that actually didn’t go up either. What grew was this kind of curious explorer group in the middle that we call the movable middle. And over the last two years, it’s grown by 9 million American adults. Rich Birch — Wow.John Plake — And so what we do see is there’s there’s openness to the Bible. There’s experimentation with the Bible. But people are jumping in and they’re trying it and they’re not being able to get hold of it. And I think that’s largely because of us.John Plake — Because Bible people who are around them aren’t saying, please come do this with me. Let me help you. Let me honor you enough to to respect your questions, to ask what you’re dealing with, and help you explore those issues through the pages of Scripture.Rich Birch — I love that movable middle, man, that feels like the kind of group we want to connect with and reach out to in our community. Any other, when you, when you’ve been thinking about this movable middle, what are some other kind of characteristics of those people or other things that, you know, are kind of telltale signs of this group as we’re thinking about them as it, as it pertains to Bible engagement?John Plake — Yeah, they’re an amazing group, and we’re going talking more about them all year, but they are probably my favorite subject in America. There are 74 million American adults that are in the movable middle.Rich Birch — Wow.John Plake — 74 million of our neighbors who are like…Rich Birch — Wow.John Plake — …and here’s what they tend to say: They love the Bible. They think it’s a great idea. But if you handed them a Bible, they don’t know how to find what they’re looking for. They don’t know how to navigate it. They get confused by the language in in Scripture.John Plake — I remember doing a a focus group with a bunch of people in the movable middle. I was in Chicago. it was an area I was really familiar with. I used to pastor in that area. And we got them talking about their experience with the Bible. And we said, hey, does anything ever stop you or kind of you know make you check out because you’re struggling with what’s going on? John Plake — And one young lady at the table said, yeah, you know the language of the Bible is really really hard for me to understand. It’s it’s a really old book. It uses expressions I don’t understand. And a gentleman sitting across the table from her just kind of chuckled and said, yeah, what the hell’s a mustard seed? And everybody laughed.John Plake — I was behind the glass and I just about fell out of my chair because they didn’t teach me to talk like that in a Assemblies of God seminary.Rich Birch — Yes.John Plake —Things like that, you know, that’s just not the way we roll.Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Yes.John Plake — But it was so authentic and he wasn’t being mean.Rich Birch — No.John Plake — He was just saying, boy, I don’t I don’t get it. And then they said, you know, we really want a guide. Rich Birch — That’s good.John Plake — And so we pushed on that a little bit. At the time, there were some clergy abuse scandals that actually there were billboards up in Chicago about clergy abuse scandals that all of us lamented. And so we’re like, OK, listen, do you trust the church to be your guide? Because ee saw these billboards, you know, and it’s your city. And so what what do you think?John Plake — And they said, well, of course we do. I mean, it’s terrible when people in the church abuse their position and abuse others. And that’s not what they’re supposed to do. But if we can’t trust the church to help us understand the Bible, what good are they, really? And so, yes, we’re looking to you, church, to help us connect more deeply with the Bible, understand what it meant to the original hearers and readers and how we apply it to our lives today.Rich Birch — Okay, that’s yeah, that’s really cool. I look forward to hearing more about the movable middle in this coming year. Another thing that jumped out to me, which I feel like, man, I’ve seen this in my church. This is like you you named a group that I see, but it’s surprising, at least it’s surprising on its face. So nearly half of weekly church attenders, weekly church attenders, which is, that’s like really engaged, you know, are not regularly engaging, engaging scripture on their own.Rich Birch — Man, what, so what should we do about that? That’s an interesting, how does, how should that impact our discipleship strategy? What are you encouraging us to be thinking about? And these people that are with us all the time, but they’re not engaged with scripture.John Plake — Well, I think the first thing to do is to just recognize it. Rich Birch — Right.John Plake — You know, a lot of pastors that I’ve talked to, when we talk about scripture engagement, they tell me things like this: Everything we do is scripture engagement. I spend my whole week preparing a scriptural message. I’m, you know, we’re preparing small group curriculum and Sunday school curriculum and all of this stuff. It’s all about the, everything we do is about the Bible. John Plake — Well, okay. But I had a I had a young youth pastor come to me not that long ago and he said, John, look, you were me once a few years ago. If you knew then what you know now, what would you do differently?John Plake — And the answer is I would do everything differently, than the way I ought to do it. Because what, in my tradition, there was a lot of emphasis on the preaching event, and I put a lot of effort into those communication events, but what I didn’t put as much effort into is empowering people in my church to do what I was doing, which was dig into scripture, understand it for themselves, giving them the tools to do that.John Plake — And then in May, we’re going to be releasing a chapter, just in a few few days now, we’re going to be releasing a chapter all about parents. And one of the startling things is the time pressure that moms are under. I mean, it’s incredible. And so we need to understand where they’re coming from and where they have barriers, but also have some compassion on them and help to support them when they’re really facing struggles. Like they don’t have enough time. They don’t have the resources or the community coming around them to help them to engage God’s word ah more fulsomely, more transformatively.John Plake — We know how to do this stuff, but we’re not connecting the dots to everybody that’s coming to hear us talk every…Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s good. I know I’ve in my seat as an XP, um you know, I’ve overseen a lot of what we do on the programming side and what we do on the weekends. And I’ve, you know, it’s like, that i don’t think I’ve ever said this publicly. It’s like the kind of behind the scenes conversation. I’ve sometimes wondered, I’ve said, you know, like, what we do on the weekend to try to make the Bible understandable is so completely different than Tuesday morning in someone’s life. Rich Birch — Like, we pull out all the stops to make it interesting. We get like world class communicators, incredible graphics, you know, emotional music, all of this to try to… But then the question is, okay, so now on Tuesday morning when you’re tired and you haven’t had your coffee yet and you’re just about to go read scripture, man, like that feels like a long ways away. There’s like a gap there that I sometimes wonder maybe we’re making it worse. You know. Maybe we’re making it harder. I said that. You didn’t say that. Rich Birch — So maybe there’s pastors that are listening here and they read this kind of report. They read this kind of finding and they’re like, hey, that’s interesting. But like, how what do I do in my church specifically? So you know we want we don’t want to just leave people with a tough stat.Rich Birch — I think we see that in our church. There’s people in our church that are here all the time. They’re not that engaged. But you’ve actually developed a new tool or ABS has developed a new tool to help us think through that. Why don’t you walk us through it? Tell us a little bit about it. How’s it work? Talk us how it can help us.John Plake — Yeah, so recently we developed two tools that kind of work together. One of them you can find on the internet at nextstep.bible. And it’s just for anybody who’s like, hey, I’m on a spiritual journey. I’m kind of stuck. I don’t really know what to do next. Maybe you’re just getting started exploring what it means to be a Christian. Maybe you’re Jesus’ little brother or sister. Wherever you are in that journey, there’s always a next step for us.John Plake — And so what we’ve done is analyzed along about a million spiritual life surveys. Rich Birch — Wow.John Plake — And from this huge quantity of data, we’ve learned that people are at different places in that journey. They’re at different points on the map. And we want to make sure that they’re equipped to have the right thing at the right time. I think currently there are 21,000 scripture engagement resources available there.Rich Birch — Wow.John Plake — They’re absolutely free. They’re in English, Spanish, and French. So go check it out, nextstep.bible.John Plake — But if you’re a pastor or you’re a church leader, you’re probably wondering, well, what’s going on in my church, right? So I see all the national data, but I think our tendency is to say, well, we’re the exception, right?Rich Birch — So true. Well, that’s not our people. John Plake — I know I know everybody else is struggling, but we’re doing okay.Rich Birch — Yes.John Plake — And and so it’s good to check our assumptions a little bit. They used to say a really sad statistic that 10 o’clock on Sunday morning was the most segregated hour in America, which makes me sad. What makes me sad also is that 12 o’clock noon in America is the most dishonest hour in America. That’s the hour when pastors tend to start greeting their people after the church service closes and they hear all these comments: oh, Pastor, that was the best sermon I’ve ever heard. And it wasn’t. It just wasn’t. All right, let’s face it.John Plake — There’s somebody out there who preaches better than you do and better than I do. They’re available on YouTube. People don’t need you to be the best Bible teacher in the world. They need you to be the best pastor for them. Rich Birch — That’s good.John Plake — And the tools that are all about focusing on their relationship with the Bible, their holistic spiritual formation, and our leadership behaviors. And so for that, we built the Next Step for Church Assessment.John Plake — It’s actually standing on the foundation or built on the engine block, if you want a different metaphor, of the old reveal research that the Willow Creek Association had come out with. It’s no longer available. And we were able to acquire all of their historical learnings, but also add in things like human flourishing and e-pastoral leadership behaviors that lead to churches really being missionally effective and strong. Excellent stuff on Bible engagement and spiritual formation. John Plake — So the the big challenge we had, I was talking with Dr. Ed Stetzer about this because he was at LifeWay Research when the Transformational Church Assessment was being built. And it was always hard because analyzing this kind of data required a lot of human intervention. It’s very expensive to do. It’s very complicated to deliver. And even a small cost can be a barrier for churches that have strained budgets. It doesn’t matter if you’re a church of, you know, 2,500 25,000 or 250. There’s always more places to put your money than there are dollars that are available to do it.John Plake — And so at American Bible Society, we said, you know what, as a gift to the church, because we love the church, we need to make it completely free. And so you can go to church.nextstep.bible and you could sign up today. Literally, we’re recording this on a on a Thursday. You could go there today and by Sunday, you could be launching your survey. Two weeks later, you’d automatically have results in your own online dashboard. You’d get key highlights emailed to you. There’s a place for custom questions. There’s just all kinds of really, really rich information.Rich Birch — So good.John Plake — And it it doesn’t take the place of the kind of learning that you have as a pastor. You learn deeply in relationship with others. You’re observing what’s going on. You have a team that’s around you. But what it does is it provides this valid, reliable sift and sort function. It’s based on well, I don’t know even know how many, well over 3000 churches, well over half a million survey responses went into building this and making it a tool that that is a good benchmark for you to say, you know what, if we want to move from where we are today to where God is calling us, here are the things we need to focus on.Rich Birch — It’s so good. And friends, I want to encourage you to to go there. Just church.nextstep.bible. I know many of us have a heart for saying, listen, we want to measure more than just nickels and noses. The number of people that show up and revenue that comes in. And this a great way to kind of inject at something that’s at the core of what we’re supposed to be doing as a church. So why don’t we just give a little bit more detail?Rich Birch — What is it? You know, what’s it actually measuring? How is it? You know, how could it be helpful? How how could it kind of dovetail with some of the things we’re already tracking? Maybe give us, you know, what kind of insights are we going to gain from this if we if we put our people through this?John Plake — Yeah, maybe it’s worthwhile to just back up and say it’s based on a congregational assessment. So really this kind of work is all about just listening to your congregation at scale. So if you have 25 people coming to church, you can probably have this conversation with them if you know how to ask the right questions. Rich Birch — Right.John Plake — You can go to the website. You’re like, what’s in the survey? There’s a button you can click. You can read the whole survey. It’s fine. We’re not going to try and surprise you with anything. But really simple stuff. How’s your relationship with Jesus? How often are you interacting with Scripture? What difference is that making in your life? We ask the standard Harvard human flourishing questions. We ask about um how the pastoral team or the senior pastor, him or herself, is doing at actually modeling Christlike leadership for you. Rich Birch — It’s so good.John Plake — And all of that reporting then gets brought into a database. It’s all anonymous. So individuals don’t, they don’t have to tell you who they are. They can’t tell you who they are other than by characteristics. And you’re going to get this really good, robust picture of what’s going on at the church. John Plake — Now, what does it take for somebody to do that? It takes about 20 minutes of their time, and time is expensive, right? People always have too much to do. So in return for that investment, at the end of their survey experience, they will have already told us everything we need to know to match them to great resources at nextstep.bible.John Plake — And with their permission, not without it, they can click a button, pass that data over to the individual nextstep.bible platform. They can create an account and right away, they’re going to be finding things like YouVersion Bible reading plans that are just for them.John Plake — If you’ve got people in your church and they’re outliers, they’re they’re way more spiritually advanced than everybody else, or they’re just getting started and everybody else is way ahead of them, these kinds of tools create bespoke pathways for them so they know what to do next. All the while, the church leadership can sit back and say, okay, here’s our results. And as a team, now what do we need to do to serve the whole congregation well?Rich Birch — I love this. You know, this is what incredible tool that you’ve put together here for our churches to wrestle through and to, you know, not only help us as a church as we’re thinking about these issues, but then help individuals in our church. What what would be some of the ways that churches might use the data that’s generated to impact what we’re doing in our programming? How how could we use this to improve what we’re doing?John Plake — Sure. There are really three things we want everybody to do. First, just discover what’s going on. Just just check your assumptions at the door and and say, okay, what do the data tell us about what’s going on in our church life and in our people’s lives? That’s the first thing.John Plake — Second thing is it’s going to surface for you the top three things that you’re doing great. And it’s going to give them to you in the report. And you need to throw a party. Like there are people who make these things happen for you. No pastor is doing this all by themselves. And so plan a party, celebrate what’s going well.John Plake — The third thing it’s going to do is it’s going to give you suggestions about, okay, here’s where your congregation is today. It won’t surprise you, but it might inform you. I’ve never seen a pastor look at the report and go, ah you guys got it wrong. Rich Birch — Sure, right.John Plake — Usually they they see the report and they go, yeah, okay, yeah, you got me.Rich Birch — Yeah. Confirmed some hunches I’ve had. Yeah. Yeah.John Plake — Right? But we don’t we don’t have time. We don’t have the resources. We don’t have the expertise to be able to sit down and and kind of scientifically walk through this process. So we do that for you. We deliver the report. And then we’re going to give you two key action items that we think churches like yours in a similar place have done that have helped move them toward spiritual health and missional effectiveness.John Plake — And that’s really what it’s all about. We want your congregation to be spiritually healthy. We want your your church as a whole to be missionally effective. And when that happens, often there’s numerical growth. Often there’s financial growth. But there’s certainly more missional impact that’s coming through your congregation and its work.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. So if I’m like a church of a thousand people, let’s say, and just round number to picking out of the sky, how how what kind of percentage of my congregation would I need to take this to give me a reasonable, you know, statistical, you know, feeling good about the data for it? What what kind of number um should I be thinking about?John Plake — Well, the first thing is we’ve built in a tool that will tell you how to get to a margin of error of plus or minus 3%. Rich Birch — Love it.John Plake — And that does vary depending on the adult attendance that you have. So let’s say you’ve a thousand adults. And by adults, I mean anybody in high school or older can probably take this survey. Rich Birch — Yep.John Plake — And you can cut the data like by gender or by age. All of that live filtering is in the online platform. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s so good.John Plake — So if you’re the you’re the youth pastor and you’re like, well, wait, tell me about the young people that took the survey. You can just look right at them and compare them to the rest of the congregation, which I bet will be enlightening. But nevertheless, how many do you need if you’re a church of 1,000, it’s about 275.Rich Birch — Okay.John Plake — If it’s a smaller church than that, then you’re still going to need a pretty significant percentage. So if I roll that all the way down to a church of 100, you need 80.Rich Birch — Okay.John Plake — And if you roll that up to a church of 5,000, well, you don’t need that many more than 275.Rich Birch — Interesting.John Plake — So you’re going to report that out to you. It’s very, very doable. And, you know, I’ve pastored at large churches and I pastored a small church. And I’ll tell you, when I pastored a church of under 100, I could have gotten a census of the people, like everybody, to do a survey like this. They would have been glad to tell me these things. Rich Birch — Right.John Plake — And it’s not that I couldn’t have had a conversation one-on-one with most of the adults in the congregation. It was something different in that case. I actually didn’t know what to ask. I used to run into this when I was a campus pastor at a Christian university. And I would have young people walk into my office and I was like, I know I should be able to help them, but the challenge they’re facing is different than anything I’m familiar with. I don’t have any analog for this in my personal experience. And so this sort of takes the mystery away. We don’t ask fluffy questions. We ask research proven questions that are going to give you the information you really need so you can take action.Rich Birch — That’s amazing. That’s think this is such a great tool for people. I can see how, you know, it’d be so helpful for folks that are listening in to, you know, might be be able to plug in grab this experience for their people, help their church, help the folks that are attending. That’s, that’s incredible.Rich Birch — So, you know, you’ve picked an interesting vocation to be connected with the American Bible Society. And because, you know, this is such a critical and important part of developing people’s relationship, obviously, with Jesus; its core to all of it. And we have seen a long historical downward trend, and you’re pushing against that, which is amazing. But what gives you hope in the middle of all of that? What would it when you look at the church around you know, the country, where do you see flashes of just good things going on that are like, you know, when it comes to the relationship with scripture that even, you know, even when we see maybe the overall numbers are not as great as we want them to be, what are some kind of flashes of hope we should, that we could encourage folks with today?John Plake — Well, I’d like to maybe point to just three things that leap to mind. Rich Birch — Yep.John Plake — The first of them is I never talk to anybody in the church who says the Bible is a bad idea. Rich Birch — Sure.John Plake — Everybody likes the Bible. We’re all trying to figure out how to communicate its message better, to understand it more deeply. It’s transforming our lives, and we want to be able to share it with others. John Plake — And that’s great because, number two, there’s nothing that makes a bigger difference in somebody’s spiritual life than their relationship with the Bible. I mean, absolutely nothing. And I’m saying this as a researcher. I’ve tested it. I can’t find anything that makes a bigger difference. John Plake — In fact, when we looked at Christian college and university students, 60% of their overall spiritual health across lots of domains—beliefs, practice, putting faith into action, loving God, loving others, all these things, 60% of the variance in their spiritual health is solely accounted for by their relationship with the Bible.John Plake — So if we can help people have a dynamic relationship with scripture, we win. That’s all there is to it. It’s just that simple. And so that is really encouraging.John Plake — And then the third thing, ah the third thing is how I say this nicely? I’m I’m from Gen X and so to my Baby Boomer friends, I’m sorry, but you guys don’t have the influence that you once did.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s true.John Plake — And that’s a good thing because there’s new openness among Millennials, and Gen Z and even younger Gen X um that we just don’t see among Baby Boomers. It’s like Baby Boomers made up their minds in the 60s and early 70s and said, this is what I believe and I’m not changing. And they haven’t. John Plake — That’s not to say that someone who’s a Baby Boomer can’t have a a spiritual experience and transformational experience. It does happen. But on the population level, like when we looked at the Bay Area of San Francisco, if you look at the scripture engagement, church engagement, love God, love others data in the Bay Area, it looks like what you’d expect, until you strip out the Baby Boomers. And then suddenly it looks better than every place else in America.John Plake — You’re like, what’s going on? Well, looks like all the unreconstructed hippies that moved to the Bay Area are actually holding a lid on the population numbers. And when you remove that and you go, oh, wait a minute, let me look under the headline and say what’s happening. There’s more going on than is easy to see. And I think this happens in big national trends.John Plake — Oh, is Scripture engagement up or down? Is you know church attendance up or down? Whats what’s going… big national trends. Yeah, okay, those are helpful, and we want those to change. But what’s changing first is below the fold. Things in Gen Z, things among Millennials, things in young men, those things are starting to change, and I think those are the first glimmerings that God is at work in a new way in America, and I can’t wait to see it.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s that’s a great word. And that lines up with what we’re seeing, even just experientially talking to churches across the country. You know we’re so we’re seeing there is something going on with younger generations, which is great to see. I was I was born in 1974, the lowest birth rate year of the 20th century. I am classic Gen X. Like you know I am like statistic I’m the statistical average Gen X and has spent a lot of my time trying to hand stuff from the Boomers to the Millennials. And, yeah, there’s lots of encouraging news there, particularly with the younger generations. Rich Birch — I also want to speak to on the the work I’ve done in the church growth stuff that I’ve done and coaching I’ve done with churches, one of the things that’s just undeniable is churches that have a high view of scripture, that is, they’re trying to get people engaged with scripture. They they talk about it like it’s actually true. How do we say don’t know what’s the best way to talk about that? Those are the churches that are prevailing, and that actually works out statistically. You see that time and again. Talk to us about that dynamic, which is kind of co-related to the things we’re talking about today. From your perspective in the stats and all that, how how have you seen that work out as you’ve looked at churches across the country?John Plake — Yeah, I think you’re exactly right. The churches that are the healthiest in America, that are growing, that where where people are spiritually healthy, have a really dynamic relationship with Scripture. And it kind of it cuts across tradition. Rich Birch — Yep.John Plake — There are some traditional things going on. I was listening to Justin Brierley and his surprising Rebirth of Belief in God podcast, and it was from last season, and he he had someone on, he was interviewing, and what she was saying was there are the parts of the church that seem to be thriving are kind of the, the the older, the ancientness traditions, whether it’s Catholic or Orthodox, that what she called somewhat irreverently, the smells and bells side of of the church.Rich Birch — Sure, sure.John Plake — And on the other side, kind of my end of the swimming pool, I’m, from the Assemblies of God, so the Pentecostal and Charismatic side. And she said, what’s going on is that both ends of that spectrum are totalizing. John Plake — They’re saying, you know what, the the Bible places certain expectations and demands on people. Christ places certain expectations and demands on people. And these parts of the church aren’t sort of shy about talking about that from a biblical perspective. She said, what’s what’s dying is that part in the middle where we’ve reduced church to a PowerPoint and you know an Excel spreadsheet. And she said, that part of the church seems to be dying and no one’s coming to the funeral. Rich Birch — That’s good. John Plake — And I thought, you know okay, right?Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, that’s good.John Plake — So if we revitalize our relationship with God through scripture, there’s a next step for every church. It doesn’t matter what, you know whether you’re mainline or evangelical or, you know, Pentecostal or Orthodox or whatever it is, but but reviving our relationship with God through Scripture is really where it’s at.Rich Birch — That’s so good. i Yeah, I call that middle group the just because it rhymes doesn’t mean it’s true group. You know, like the, you know, were just like, it’s all my thoughts. No one wants to come and find us. They want to find God ultimately. Well, I don’t want to pick any fights with anybody that’s listening in, but I really appreciate today’s conversation, John. This has been great. So we want to send people to church.nextstep.bible.Rich Birch — The the promise of in two weeks, your church could have a comprehensive report on spiritual health, on where your church is, spiritual health is at, that’s a huge promise. And so again, this is go to church.nextstep.bible. Any kind of final words as we wrap up today’s episode?John Plake — You know, you might be familiar with Cally Parkinson. Cally was the co-author of all of the Reveal books, every single one of them. She was head of communications for the Willow Creek Association when they were running this. She’s probably had more conversations with pastors and church leaders about survey results like this than anybody I know, maybe than anybody alive. And Cally likes this so much. She said, John, I want to have a personal consultation with the first hundred churches that go through this.John Plake — And so if you want to be in that group, she’s going to offer to spend an hour with you and just walk through your results and help explain it. There are videos throughout the platform that will explain it as well. And you can’t beat talking to Cally. She loves pastors. She says you’re the salt of the earth. And she just really wants to serve you because the work that you do to save people is just so valuable to her. So anyway, just wanted to offer that. And I know you’d probably love to meet Cally.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s fantastic. Well, appreciate you being here today. Thanks for the great work you do at the American Bible Society. John, appreciate you being on today. Thank you.John Plake — Thank you.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Ted Coniaris, lead pastor of Community Christian Church in the greater Chicagoland area. After an intentional and extended succession process with founding pastor Dave Ferguson, Ted has stepped into the lead role during a pivotal season for the church. In this conversation, he shares what it looks like to lead through transition, clarify vision, and build a disciple-making ecosystem for the future. A transition built on trust and clarity. // Ted describes a multi-year succession process that included months of private conversations, an 18-month apprenticeship, and a highly visible transition with full support from church leadership. One of the most unique elements was launching a new vision before the transition was complete. While unconventional, this approach created immediate alignment and buy-in across the church. Because the process was prayerful, transparent, and unified, the congregation experienced less anxiety than expected, resulting in what Ted describes as a surprising sense of peace and readiness for what’s next. Renovating, not rebuilding. // Ted uses the language of “renovation” to describe the church’s next chapter. Community Christian Church has a rich 37-year history of helping people find their way back to God, especially those far from faith. Rather than starting from scratch, Ted is focused on building on that foundation while addressing a critical gap: what happens after people come to faith? This has led to a renewed focus on creating a clear and intentional disciple-making ecosystem. A bold, layered vision for the future. // Ted outlines a four-part vision that builds sequentially: every heart on fire, every person a pastor, every child and student equipped, and every neighborhood a thriving church. This framework begins with spiritual passion—not just participation—emphasizing that people today are searching for something deeper than casual faith. From there, the vision moves toward activating every believer in ministry, taking seriously the priesthood of all believers. The end result is a multiplying movement of disciples impacting communities at scale. Rethinking discipleship through Growth Track. // To support this vision, the church is developing a clear pathway called Growth Track, built around three movements: Alpha, Disciple, and Pastor. The goal is not just information or assimilation, but transformation and activation. Ted emphasizes helping every person identify their calling, answering the question, “Who am I called to reach?” This reframes discipleship from passive participation to active mission. Ancient practices for modern renewal. // One of the more surprising shifts has been a return to ancient spiritual disciplines. Through rhythms like “Ignite Week”—a church-wide season of prayer, fasting, and reflection—Ted is seeing increased spiritual intensity across all age groups. These rhythms create deeper roots than one-time events, shaping both individual lives and the overall culture of the church. A multiplying model through microchurches. // In addition to strengthening internal discipleship, Community Christian is expanding outward through a rapidly growing microchurch movement. With hundreds of microchurches already launched globally, the model focuses on simple, scalable principles: low control, high support, and strong coaching relationships. Rather than centralizing growth in large gatherings, this approach empowers everyday people to lead and reach others in their own contexts—creating the potential for exponential impact. The leader’s soul is the strategy. // Ted closes with a powerful reminder: the most important strategy a leader has is their own spiritual health. Passion for God, integrity, and relational support are foundational. Ministry is difficult, but leaders who tend their own spiritual lives and refuse isolation will be better equipped to lead others effectively. To learn more about Community Christian Church, visit communitychristian.org. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it’s time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Super excited to have you listening in today. GI gotta be totally honest. I asked this person to come on today to have a bit of an update conversation from a conversation we had out just over a year ago. I’m really excited for this because it’s kind of fun to follow along with this story. And this is an area that really is, applies to all of our churches and I want all of us to lean in. And so pay attention, whether you’re cutting your grass or whatever you’re doing for the next 30 minutes, it’s going to be a great conversation.Rich Birch — We’ve got Ted Coniaris with us. He is the lead pastor at a fantastic church, a multi-site church in the greater Chicagoland area called Community Christian. They have, if I’m counting correctly, seven physical locations, as well as micro churches that meet in homes throughout the week and online space, plus community freedom locations, which meet in correctional facilities across the region as well. Ted, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.Ted Coniaris — Thanks, Rich. Really glad to be here. Great to see you again. We get to cross paths a few times a year, so it’s always great to connect. Appreciate the time.Rich Birch — I appreciate you you taking time to come on and and connect. Friends that are listening in, just kind of bringing you up to speed. We’ll link to the previous episode if you want to go back and and check that. But the last time we talked, you were apprenticing as the lead pastor at Community Christian under Dave Ferguson. And I think that was a year ago. And you you know there’s all the steps. I think you were step three, step four, somewhere in there. Ted Coniaris — Yeah.Rich Birch — And there was this handoff on the horizon. And now we’re on the other side of that. And so that’s part of why I wanted to get you on. Here we are a year later. Let’s talk about those things. You’re still there. So that’s a good thing.Ted Coniaris — I mean, as far as you know, this could be a fake backdrop. Who knows?Rich Birch — Yeah, true this is the… Yeah, so you know what? You were…Ted Coniaris — No, it is true.Rich Birch — It takes a lot of time. Talk to us through, you know, what’s happened since then. Talk us about that transition. Kind of bring us up to speed.Ted Coniaris — Absolutely. So as you said, we went through an 18 month apprenticeship, but before that we had about six, eight, probably eight months of conversations just Dave and I, before we went above ground with elders and everything else, maybe even a little longer than that. So it was quite a long process walking through our apprenticeship process as a church and really wanting to do that at the highest level, just like we do at every level of leadership as a church. Ted Coniaris — So that was an amazing process. Dave is an incredible leader and even better man and somebody that it was a great privilege to spend more and more time with him. He and Sue—his wife—Melissa and I spending time with them, and then John and and Lisa, his brother and his wife. We spent a lot of time together, so it was great. And then since then, May, they’re still around. They’re still a part of our church. Dave is now the CEO of Exponential, spending full time doing that.Ted Coniaris — And John is leading something called the Chicago Collective, which is a network of churches, networks of churches throughout Chicagoland, working to plant more churches, which we desperately need in Chicago area. So if you’re listening, you’re like, man, I’m thinking about planning a church in Chicago. Please reach out to me. I would love to help you do that. We desperately need more more churches here.Ted Coniaris — So since then, it’s been great. Honestly, there’s been so much change, so many things going on, but it’s truly, truly been really, really good. I think I’m tired in the right ways. Rich Birch — Right. Ted Coniaris — I’m probably also tired in some of the wrong ways too… Rich Birch — Right. Ted Coniaris — …but it’s been a great it’s been a great transition.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. You know, when we you were on last time, you were talking about really stewarding the mission of the future, while also chasing new vision, which is, is at that phase kind of easy to say, you’re like, okay, we’re looking forward to the future. Now you’re in the seat. And it’s like, you got to keep doing that. Now that you’re sitting there.,you know, what’s become clearer for you as you’ve thought about the next chapter and, and, you know, as you think about the future, what are, cause there may be some questions you’re wrestling with as you’re thinking, you know, up over to the horizon. Yeah. What are the things that are, are, are bubbling in your brain on that front?Ted Coniaris — Yeah, great question. I mean, so much has become more clear. But one of the great gifts that I felt like the Lord gave us as a church in this transition on the very front end was a real clarity and unity around our new vision as a church. It’s not so typical to launch a new vision for the church before the transition has even occurred. And I wouldn’t recommend that in other situations, but it just, the way that it went with us, this just felt like what the Lord was leading us to do.Ted Coniaris — So we actually actually launched the new vision for the church while Dave was still the lead pastor. And he stood right there beside me and in full support with our elders and everyone else. And so it was actually unique in that way. But that’s just really been confirmed. Honestly, that’s been one of the biggest things that I am grateful for through this process is just the Lord’s gift of clarity on the front end and just giving me ah real clear direction to run. Ted Coniaris — And I would say too, that there’s a big difference between a transition that’s been prayed over for years. Rich Birch — That’s good. Right, right.Ted Coniaris — It just lands differently than a transition.That’s just like been negotiated in some back room somewhere. You know, it’s like this…Rich Birch — Right. Right. Right. Yeah.Ted Coniaris — This has been prayed through and put above ground and has been a really healthy, visible process that I think resulted in the church just being wide open, saying, yeah, this feels right. This feels good. And we’re in. And so almost it’s like a a sense of exhale that I’ve been experiencing, which has surprised me…Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.Ted Coniaris — …in the church.Rich Birch — Yeah.Ted Coniaris — I thought there would be more anxiety in the transition. Rich Birch — Right. Ted Coniaris — But there’s really been like a quiet permission-giving that’s happened.Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.Ted Coniaris — Almost like, you know, just the family knew the transition was healthy so they could just sort of relax into it and say, okay, what’s next?Rich Birch — Right. Right.Ted Coniaris — And in hindsight, what felt a little crazy of launching the vision now feels like if we hadn’t have done that, we would have missed a real amazing opportunity because people were really bought in right from the get-go, which has been great.Rich Birch — Well, and what, yeah, that’s great. And in hindsight, being able to look back at that moment and saying like, no, like, yeah, maybe not the kind of thing that you write in a book and say, that’s the way to do it. But it’s like, we did that. And there’s in hindsight, man, amazing to have kind of both of your endorsements on the future direction. And like, Hey, we’re excited to be going in this direction. There was a mutual support there that ended up accelerating pointing things to the future. That’s incredible. That’s great.Ted Coniaris — Yeah.Rich Birch — Yeah.Ted Coniaris — And so now it’s really…Go ahead. Sorry.Rich Birch — No, you go ahead. You go. Go ahead.Ted Coniaris — Okay. Yeah. Now it’s in the season where it’s how do we take that vision, that sort of north star for the future and building on their 37-year history as a church that’s been so rich and good in and move in this new direction, but also be aligned with our past.Ted Coniaris — You know, it’s not about tradition, but it is about, you know, God has been doing a unique and wonderful thing here that we want to continue in, but also kind of build on what’s next. So I felt like as a church, one of our great strengths as community, and this is really a reflection of Dave and John, is we’re a community where everyone is welcome. Like that that’s without a doubt. Anybody and everybody can walk through these doors and probably tens of thousands of people have over these last 37 years, and found their way back to God. It’s incredible. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s amazing.Ted Coniaris — I mean, when it comes to that zero to one, those people finding the Lord from a really hard spot, man, God has just used this church in such miraculous and amazing ways for so long. And we want to keep that. Like we love that about this place and just think it’s an amazing amazing strength of this community. But now we want to answer sort of the next question, which is now what? So everyone’s welcome.Rich Birch — Right.Ted Coniaris — Now what? Rich Birch — Right.Ted Coniaris — And so we want to build on that path towards what’s in the future. And the way we’re talking about it here is sort of renovating our disciple-making ecosystem, which is a big mouthful. But you know it’s renovating, and it’s a certainly a lot of you know jargon, but bear with me for a second.Rich Birch — Yeah.Ted Coniaris — You know, we’re renovating because we’re not starting from scratch.Rich Birch — Right.Ted Coniaris — We’ve got a great house, a great church.Rich Birch — Right. Ted Coniaris — Things are great. It’s time for a renovation. And what we’re renovating is a very clear, focused outcome, which is disciple-making. And I think that’s an area where we have not been as strong over the years. It’s like that first part of the journey. And we have a lot of evangelists here and we’re passionate. We want to keep that. But we also want to answer that that: now what? That disciple-making ecosystem. And it’s an ecosystem because not any one thing, this program doesn’t make you a disciple-making church. Rich Birch — Right, right. Ted Coniaris — Or just a good teacher doesn’t make you a disciple-making church. It’s all of these things kind of together create an environment and a path for that to happen. And so we’re just renovating all of those things with the vision, teaching, creating new rhythms as a church, and also creating a, for the first time for us at least, a clear disciple making process, which we’re we’re calling it Growth Track.Ted Coniaris — And a lot of churches use that term. But just trying to say, okay, our vision is to see every person step into their God-given calling to be a pastor. If every person is a pastor, it’s like, what if we actually took the priesthood of believers seriously? Right? And how would that change our disciple-making process if that was the end result? Rich Birch — That’s cool.Ted Coniaris — Right? I think a lot of times we can slip into being really like our disciple-making becomes more about assimilation. Or more about collecting a certain level of information or knowledge or even practice.Rich Birch — Yep. Yep.Ted Coniaris — But we’re trying to have a different output. We want to see people finding their way back to God, which has always been the core of our mission, and then released as pastors in the world and equipped to do that. Ted Coniaris — And so what’s our process for taking someone from a seeker to a pastor. We really didn’t have that. Rich Birch — Right. Ted Coniaris — And so we’re in the process right now of just building all of that out, aligning all of our teams and creating just a clear answer to that, that “now what” question.Rich Birch — Yeah, love that. And, you know, that makes sense for a church of of this age. You know, people have changed, you know, what we used to call seekers or the people that were arriving, they’re different. It’s like the most obvious thing to say, but people are different today than they were 37 years ago when this ball got rolling. Rich Birch — And and what what are some of those early changes that you’ve made to renovate? What are some of those things that that do look a little bit different or are are, you know, kind of pointing in a new direction? Where where what are you learning on that that front?Ted Coniaris — Well, obviously the first one is the new vision, and I’ll just share that really, really quickly.Rich Birch — Yep.Ted Coniaris — But it’s, and they all build on each other. That’s really the the key for us. And while this is unique to Community Christian Church, it’s not a vision that’s unique to Community Christian Church. Like, I think this is really like a biblical thing, but it starts with every heart on fire.Ted Coniaris — And it talks about, when you ask the question about what’s different, I think one of the things that’s really different, people aren’t looking just for a place to blend in the background and be like, oh, this is cool.Rich Birch — Right.Ted Coniaris — You’re cool Jesus followers. I’m cool. We can be cool together. This is cool. That is, that is… Rich Birch — That’s amazing. I love it. Ted Coniaris — That is not what the next generation is looking for. Rich Birch — No.Ted Coniaris — They are looking for fire.Rich Birch — Yeah.Ted Coniaris — They are looking for passion. And rightfully so. Rightfully so. Thank God for that.  Rich Birch — Yeah.Ted Coniaris — And so we want to lean into it. We don’t want to be a place where everybody’s buddies with Jesus. We want to create a place where people are consumed by him. Rich Birch — That’s good. Ted Coniaris — Just like the disciples on the road to Emmaus talked about, you know, we’re not our hearts beating or burning within us when they talk with Jesus along the road. That’s that’s the kind of community we want to be, a consumed community. And that’s the starting place for everything else. Everything else. And that’s not just emotionalism. It’s a passion for. It’s it’s a a focus on. Ted Coniaris — The second part, which builds on that, it’s not even worth going to the second part if you don’t do the first thing. The second part is every person a pastor, right? Because if you start with every person a pastor, but the heart’s not on fire, there’s not a passion and a consuming focus, you know, what kind of pastors are you raising, right?Rich Birch — Right, right.Ted Coniaris — It’s not the kind that the world needs. And so it’s every heart fire, then every person a pastor just really taking seriously the priesthood of all believers. I’m not the pastor, you know. You all are the pastors. I function as a pastor in this context, but you function as a pastor in whatever context God has placed you.Ted Coniaris — And if we could do those two things, if we can have every heart and fire and every person released into their God-given calling as a pastor, then maybe we could accomplish the third thing, which is every child and student equipped. Rich Birch — Wow. Yep.Ted Coniaris — Because that’s going to take all hands on deck. What our kids, what my kids, I have 16, 14, and 10-year-old, all boys. So please pray for us. But what what my boys are facing today, it’s like the challenges I faced have been weaponized and placed in the hands of every single kid. And yet our student and youth ministry, our kids and and student ministry, looks almost identical to what it did look like 37 years ago. Why is that? I mean, there’s different strategies, practice in those sort things.Rich Birch — That doesn’t make sense. Yeah.Ted Coniaris — But if you look at like the form even of itself, we’re like, it kind of looks the same. It looks sort of like the youth group I went to as a kid. Rich Birch — Right. Ted Coniaris — And I think we need to be doing a lot more and investing more in the next generation in in relational deep ways. But it can’t happen without every heart and fire and every person being a pastor. And if we can do that, every heart of fire, every person pastor, every child and student equipped, then we can accomplish the Great Commission, right? Rich Birch — Right.Ted Coniaris — And that’s really the last part of the vision, which is every neighborhood a thriving church. Because the way you change the world is by having you know a community of Christ followers, place where Jesus is King, we’re on mission together within arm’s reach of every person on the planet.Ted Coniaris — You know that’s, that’s the plan. And so that’s what we’re targeting and going after. So that’s different. And so for us to do those things, there’s things we’re trying to change and layer in behind that. Really renovating our teaching ministry. We’re kind of going old school. We’re going back through like long series, books of the Bible, just walking through scripture, teaching people the Bible, just like the disciples on that road to Emmaus. You know, that was when Jesus opened the scriptures to them. It’s lit this fire inside of them.Ted Coniaris — I think that’s even more necessary. 37 years ago, basically a Christian culture-ish. Rich Birch — Yep.Ted Coniaris — Today, not so much. Rich Birch — Right. Ted Coniaris — So nobody’s walking through the doors with like this biblical knowledge. They’re walking through the doors with nothing.Rich Birch — That’s so true, yeah.Ted Coniaris — And so, you know, we need to do that. So we’re doing that, creating rhythms in our calendar years. A lot more I could say about that. Spiritual disciplines communally, not just as individuals, feels maybe like a little spin on liturgical calendars of old. Rich Birch — Yep. Ted Coniaris — We’re embracing some of that in a new way for us.Rich Birch — Right.Ted Coniaris — And then this this Growth Track is a big part of that. Rich Birch — Right. Ted Coniaris — And then there’s there’s more beyond that, but that’s just a few of the things.Rich Birch — Dude, I love it. I love I love the how those four layer on. I love the focus. I think it totally just feels right on with where you know culture’s at. Could you unpack a little bit of what you’re doing with Growth Track? What does that look like, that particular tactic in the… You know I think the idea of every person a pastor is a very compelling, that’s like a lean-in, “what did you just say?” kind of thing. Ted Coniaris — Yeah.Rich Birch — And then but what are you, you know, help us, help us understand, you know, a little bit of that, what you’re doing with Growth Track to kind of point towards that.Ted Coniaris — You mean like the mechanics of it or like just the overall strategy?Rich Birch — Yeah. How’s it work? What are you teaching there? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What, yeah, what’s, what is it?Ted Coniaris — Well, it’s all…Rich Birch — How’s it work?Ted Coniaris — Yeah, we’re getting ready to to launch it all this fall. Rich Birch — Great. Ted Coniaris — And yeah, we’re really excited about it. But essentially, it’s it’s three steps. “One. Life. Go.” is kind of how we talk about the Growth Track. And the first step is tried and true. It’s Alpha. Rich Birch — Yep. Ted Coniaris — I think Alpha is probably the single greatest tool available… Rich Birch — Sure. Sure. Ted Coniaris — …to help you know my friends and neighbors and family find their way back to God. I I love Alpha. I’m running an Alpha right now at an office with a buddy and his partners, all the partners of his business.Rich Birch — Yep. Ted Coniaris — We’re doing Alpha together over lunch. It’s amazing.Rich Birch — Love it.Ted Coniaris — So Alpha is step one.Ted Coniaris — Step two, we call disciple because disciple is both a noun and a verb. It’s who you are and it’s what you do. And so it’s, you know, we’ve used Rooted in the past as a church and Rooted is fantastic. We love Rooted. It’s been helpful to for us. But we felt like there were ways in which we wanted to adjust that to our context a little bit more… Rich Birch — Sure. Ted Coniaris — …and also have an opportunity for people to make a commitment to the church. We don’t do membership, but we do ask people to commit to belonging here. And honestly, I think that’s a big missing step in the overall discipleship of a lot of like churches like ours. Because if you don’t have a commitment, and there’s just kind of growth that happens in your life that only can happen in a committed relationship. And it’s not about you committing to me. It’s really about us committing to each other. And when we do that, it opens the door to a different layer and level of transformation in your own life.Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that.Ted Coniaris — And committing to that unity on the front end is is really important. And so we want to do that. We also do several other things a part of that, but that’s kind of a general idea. Ted Coniaris — And then the third step is pastor. That’s the goal. That’s where we’re going.Rich Birch — Right.Ted Coniaris — It’s also a noun and a verb, right? Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Cool.Ted Coniaris — It’s who you are and it’s what you do. Rich Birch — Yeah.Ted Coniaris — And this is designed to do that. So we took some learnings actually from Brian Sanders, and he has something called the Calling Lab. He does the Tampa Underground down in Florida.Ted Coniaris — He’s done some great work on that.Ted Coniaris — And it’s essentially a similar process of triangulating your true sense of calling. We want everybody in our church to be able to say, I exist to help blank find their way back to God. Rich Birch — That’s cool.Ted Coniaris — Like, who are you called to reach?Rich Birch — That’s cool.Ted Coniaris — Because what’s a starting ground for someone to be a pastor? You know, like, is it education? Is it more this, more that? Well, I think the journey of learning and growing and honing your gifting, it has to start with the calling. And I think there are so many people who just, they don’t know how to finish that sentence. Rich Birch — Right.Ted Coniaris — Even if it is your kids or your neighbors or your coworkers, have you really done the work? Have you invested to say, no, these are the people, like names and faces that I’m called to reach. And then I’m released into that context as a pastor. So when I show up to work, I want to show up. I’m the pastor of BMO Harris Bank today because that’s where I work and I’m a teller there.Rich Birch — Right. Yeah.Ted Coniaris — you know I’m the pastor of You know, my neighborhood and in Downers Grove, in my part, my north, you know, little west quadrant there. That’s what I want to show up. That’s what I want our whole church showing up as. Thousands and thousands of pastors released into every arena of life. And so a lot of churches have Growth Track, or something like it. We’re really trying to say, okay, what’s what is the unique thing that that we’re feeling Lord’s calling us to produce here? And that’s it. And so we’ve designed these steps to work together to produce that that thing in us.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s very cool.Ted Coniaris —Hope that’s helpful.Rich Birch — I love that. Oh, it’s super helpful. I love I love what you’re doing there. And that’s thanks for taking the time to unpack that. Rich Birch — Pivoting in a slightly different direction, we were together at Exponential at Dave’s event. And well, it’s not Dave’s event. I understand that. At the Exponential conference. And we were at a breakfast together. And you mentioned about some just kind of in passing some stuff that was going on at the church that was and part of it was some of this around spiritual vitality, you’re seeing that increase.Rich Birch — I’m assuming that some of these, you know, pieces of these puzzles coming together. But then you also talked about the kind of growth of your microchurch, you know, planting movement that’s connected to Community. Could you unpack that a little bit more? Tell us a little bit about, you know, that that, how does that fit into the whole story that God’s writing here?Ted Coniaris — Yeah, I think the spiritual vitality, I’ll start there. The way we talk about it a lot is it just feels like everywhere you go, the spiritual temperature is just increasing. In kids, in students, in adults, our small groups, in our services, it’s just across the board. There’s just like an increased heat or passion around our faith.Ted Coniaris — I think a part of that is is truthfully in a season of transition, there’s always an opportunity to be open to something new. And we’ve been trying to really place our focus on, well, what’s the new thing? Like, how what is the condition of your heart? Are you on fire, truly on fire? I think putting that question, that vision in front of us as a church has been refining – that in and of itself. Ted Coniaris — But we’ve also just seen, I mean, there’s so much I could speak to on this, but one of the things I’m just really excited about is what’s happening with our students right now. We talk a lot about students being the leaders of tomorrow’s church, but I’ll tell you here, they’re the leader of today’s church. Rich Birch — So true. Ted Coniaris — I mean, they are setting a tone with passion and a desire.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s very true.Ted Coniaris — Like we do our services. I’m at the Yellow Box location, right? It’s our Naperville church here. And teaching here on Sunday. And there’ll be a group of students that will just come and sit on the ground in front of the stage… Rich Birch — Right. Right. Ted Coniaris — …have their Bibles open with their notebook, taking notes. And then during worship, it’s like they’re in the pit of a concert. You know, they’re at the stage, hands up.Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, it’s true.Ted Coniaris — And you’ve got a room full of thousands of adults watching this and they’re leading us. Nobody asked them to do it. Nobody told them to do that.Rich Birch — Right.Ted Coniaris — So I think some of it, I point to that. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool.Ted Coniaris — Others other parts of it is we’ve really kind of pushed our chips into the middle on some of the ancient stuff instead of new trendy stuff… Rich Birch — Yeah. Ted Coniaris — …specifically prayer and fasting.Rich Birch — Oh, that’s cool. Tell me more about that. I’d love to hear about that.Ted Coniaris — So yeah, earlier I talked about, you know, we’re embracing the calendar rhythms as a church.Rich Birch — Yep.Ted Coniaris — I really believe that, you know, rhythms are so much more powerful than events because, you know, an event is just a drop in the ocean. But if you can build some rhythms, you could actually build some roots. Rich Birch — That’s cool.Ted Coniaris — And, you know, our most valuable resources, our people, and our most valuable real estate is our calendar. And so we’ve said, you know, three times a year as sort of the calendar turns and that’s sort of the rhythm of our community. There’s sort of three seasons, there’s winter, there’s fall and there’s spring/summer. So to launch those seasons, we do what we now call an Ignite Week where we ask the whole church to commit to a full week of prayer and fasting. Rich Birch — Wow. Very cool.Ted Coniaris — And then we have intentional programming in that week to do like a full spiritual reset to say, okay, God, what are you saying to me right now? For the individual, we have like prayer and fasting guides to help guide people through that experience. For the groups, we do these discipleship conversations where we want everybody in each group to say, okay, what is God saying to me right now? And what am I doing to say yes to him?Ted Coniaris — And then for our locations, we take a break from all of our regular series stuff and we do Hearts on Fire Sunday. And we just say, okay, God, what are you doing here? What are you doing today? What are you doing right now? And it feels very different than our regular Sundays. Ted Coniaris — And then for the church as a whole, all of our locations together, we do what we call our Ignite Gathering on Saturday morning. It’s actually coming up this Saturday. And we just gather the whole church together. And what’s happened in these Ignite Gatherings is really exciting. It feels like a a catalyst for the rest of the church. Rich Birch — Right. Ted Coniaris — It’s like the church we’re going to be a year from now, we get to see in that room on Saturday morning. Rich Birch — That’s very cool.Ted Coniaris — And ah after a week of prayer and fasting, gathering the church together to worship, to break the fast together in communion, it’s it’s powerful. Rich Birch — Yeah.Ted Coniaris — I mean, it is powerful. The environment of that space is so different There’s such a hunger for the Lord and honestly, a true actual physical hunger after all that fasting.Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.Ted Coniaris — But it’s it’s it’s really changing the whole, as I said earlier, this ecosystem of our church. so those are some of the real important you know pieces of that ecosystem. Rich Birch — Oh, I love that. Yeah, I love that. And and um it isn’t isn’t it interesting? So we’re seeing lots of that kind of things or echoes of that across the country where, you know, there’s a there’s been a shift that, you know, we’ll probably understand better five years from now. We’ll look back and we’ll put all the pieces together and understand what God’s doing. But it does appear like, you know, the Spirit’s on the move. They say, what is that? Aslan’s on the move, right? Something is shifting in people. And you know, we’re trying to keep pick keep pick up keep up with it and do what we can to continue to steward what’s here.Rich Birch — And my experience with, you know, our our churches would have similar backgrounds, similar history. You know, we’re a heart for people who don’t, and your church has a heart for people who who don’t follow Jesus. You know, we’re trying to create a space for those folks. But though my experience has been those people are different today than they were 20 years ago. That people are coming much more, it’s like they’re farther along in the process. They’re they’re much more engaged than than um than they have been in the past. And so they’re willing to jump into the deep end of the pool on some of this stuff, maybe even more quickly than our long-term people… Ted Coniaris — Yeah, I think that’s true. Rich Birch — …because of whatever God’s doing in in their life. That’s that’s, yeah, that’s really interesting. That’s a cool thing to, you know, to be a part of, to hear you know a part of that. What about on the microchurch side? What’s happening there?Ted Coniaris — Yeah.Rich Birch — What is that? Yeah, what’s that? What’s happening with that?Ted Coniaris — So during COVID, we just sort of began dipping our toe in the water of starting microchurches under this belief that the macrochurch movement, even megachurch, doesn’t need to be at odds or in conflict with the house church and microchurch movement. Rich Birch — Yep.Ted Coniaris — Like, is there way for us to just see that as one thing instead of competing things, reaching all different kinds of people? And so we’ve just kind of dipped our toe in that. And here we are a few years later. Took us few years kind of figure out what we wanted to do. Rich Birch — Right.Ted Coniaris — We’ve been doing it for about three years now. We have you know somewhere around, i was just texted the guy for the today number because it’s growing so fast, somewhere around 350 microchurches all around the world.Rich Birch — Wow.Ted Coniaris — And it’s it’s a simple, simple, simple strategy where you’re just basically saying anybody in the world, anybody on planet Earth, feeling called the planet Earth or maybe you already have and you don’t know what to do with it. Rich Birch — Right.Ted Coniaris — And what’s interesting is that there are, I don’t know how many people, but there are a lot of people on this Earth. And a lot of people are asking that exact question and they just need someone who’s going to say, we can help you. We can help you.Rich Birch — Interesting.Ted Coniaris — We want to help you do that. We want to coach you, train you, and then set you up with a cohort of others doing the same thing to help you do it in a sustainable fashion. It’s it’s very low investment. It’s very low control, but it’s super high results.Rich Birch — Yeah. Huh.Ted Coniaris — And so it’s it’s sort of a little mind shift because a lot of times we want to have everything controlled. We want to have everybody’s theology statement. We want to have all this stuff. We want to know it’s going to be successful. We want to da-da-da-da-da. It’s like we’re not doing any of that. We obviously do teach some theology, but what we do is just keep like, what are what are these sort of ecclesiological minimums?Rich Birch — Yeah.Ted Coniaris — And how can we just center on those things… Rich Birch — Yeah. Ted Coniaris — …and launch as many people as possible and see what the Lord does? And he’s been doing some remarkable things. And I think you know our world has a giant need. We need to see millions of people find their way back to God. And a lot of us have strategies where the wild success is if we had thousands of people come and find their way back to God over decades.Ted Coniaris — This this is a strategy that could reach millions. Like I think we legitimately can see a network of these and people down the chain will have no idea kind of where it came from and they don’t need to. But I legitimately think in 10 years time, we could easily reach a million people and have a a church of a million people, but not in the traditional sense.Rich Birch — Right. Ted Coniaris — But through this.Rich Birch — Yeah. Well, I love that because, man that’s a great vision to cast. Because you can’t build enough or a big enough yellow box for all of even Chicagoland, right?Rich Birch — Like that’s just not going to, you know, you can’t.Ted Coniaris — Oh, yeah. No.Rich Birch — And and that is a, you know, it’s a just a resource intensive, you know, that’s been my life’s work. I’ve spent a lot of time on that. it’s not I’m not downing that, friends. Save your cards and letters. I still think that’s a piece of the puzzle. Ted Coniaris — I agree.Rich Birch — But how do we, is there a way for us to, work together to find solutions? How what how does the, I appreciate the, know, we’re not trying to be high control. We’re trying to, you know, we’re not you know we’re trying to really foster something that’s already in happening. We’re going to we’re going to get behind it, do what we can to support it. And we’re not going to try to over control. But I’m going to ask the control question. How do you, what is the kind of level of interaction that you’re, you’re finding is kind of the appropriate, it’s the, you know, not too little, not too much. Where have you found that’s like, hey, this, this is the kind of good sweet spot that that we have found so far with these, you know, 350, you know, microchurches.Ted Coniaris — Are you asking like, what’s the relational rhythm or…Rich Birch — Yeah. What is, yeah. What is the connection? What’s the relational rhythm between, or even connection between community and those 350? Like, are they, how are they, how do they relate to you and your team, your people, your volunteers, and then vice versa? What does that, you know, how does that, what’s that look like? What’s the connection there?Ted Coniaris — Yeah, it’s it’s purely coaching, training and ongoing support.Rich Birch — Yep.Ted Coniaris — And we also make it clear there’s no financial arrangement – them to us or us to them.Rich Birch — Yep.Ted Coniaris — And what we find is that just keeps the relationship very clean.Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s good.Ted Coniaris — We’re here to coach, support, train, launch, walk alongside.Ted Coniaris — It’s a relational currency. Rich Birch — Yeah. Ted Coniaris — And it’s an expertise currency and a material and resource are the currencies. And so that’s really what we’re doing so when it comes to you know what is the relational controls or how do you keep tabs or you know, whatever might be behind the question for us it’s more about that thriving coaching relationship… Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Yeah. Ted Coniaris — …and that this is a journey and you know if somebody is unwilling or unable to connect, I mean, they just go do their own thing. Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah.Ted Coniaris — And we’re not going to try to stop them. Rich Birch — No. Yeah.Ted Coniaris — You know, we want to be dancing with the people who want to dance. We’re not you know spending our time or energy on that. And so it’s really that that coaching system and network. That’s the key in scaling that coaching system and network is how you reach a million people.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s amazing. It’s great. That’s a huge vision. I love that. That’s that’s super inspiring. Rich Birch — Well, Ted, this has been a great check-in and lots of good stuff. Just want to encourage you in your leadership at Community. Appreciate what you’re doing there. Thanks for letting us kind of pull back the curtain a little bit and and get a sense in there. Any kind of final words you’d have for leaders that are listening in today? You know, we’ve covered a lot of ground, but anything you know you’d you’d want to kind of remind us just as we close off today’s conversation.Ted Coniaris — Yeah. And you know, the thing that’s just sort of striking me in the moment is just to encourage the pastors who are listening in particular to, to really remember that, that the strategy is your soul. And your own passion and hunger and thirst for the Lord and your integrity and walking that out, that is the key strategy. That is the most important thing. And you can’t do that alone.Ted Coniaris — You know, a lot of times talk about leadership being lonely. I kind of have a different view. I think loneliness is a choice. And I think you can choose not to be lonely. And so I know there are people who feel discouraged and that discouragement leads to isolation and that isolation feels like loneliness and it just becomes this downward spiral. There are different choices you can make to change the direction of that.Ted Coniaris — I know a lot of people are are struggling. The ministry is hard. It’s really hard. But I think that if you can really focus on your passion, your fire, tending your flame with the Lord, it will make the work of ministry lighter. It will make the successes and failures less impactful on you. And to find to find some people who can you can really be vulnerable with, who are sharing the same kind of load that you carry, that would be if I could just say one thing to a group of, you know, 5,000 pastors, that’s probably the thing I would just say right now.Rich Birch — That’s so good.Rich Birch — So good. Well, Ted, I appreciate you coming on today. Where do we want to send people if they want to track with you or with the church? Where do we want to send them online?Ted Coniaris — Communitychristian.org, church website, probably the best place. You can find us on socials and stuff like that. I don’t really do social stuff. It’s not my thing.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah.Ted Coniaris — But you could go to the church. You can find all that. So it’s Community Christian Church in the Chicago area, and you’ll find everything.Rich Birch — That’s great. Thanks so much, Ted. Appreciate being here today, sir.Ted Coniaris — Thank you, Rich. Appreciate you too.