David Ryan Polgar intro3:21 weird coincidence?!4:40 and a tornado?!6:05 previous podcast discussion — will update here with a link when it goes live!7:23 attorney and educator?!10:44 “no application without representation”11:56 the politics of technology15:55 impact over intent16:25 social media and free speech online21:13 content moderation: humans and AI24:32 the role of friction in tech27:32 distinguishing between thought and action in law28:24 “your unfiltered brain is not what should be out on the internet”28:50 brain to text30:59 “are we an algorithm”37:14 “do we even want these systems”46:05 “I wanted to put the agency back on us”46:28 “the future is not written”53:55 “everybody needs to add their voice”54:54 How can people find you and follow your work? (alltechishuman.org, [email protected]; funnyastech.com; @techethicist; David Ryan Polgar on LinkedIn; techethicist.com; davidryanpolgar.com)

all right00:15welcome to the tech humanist show uh00:19i hope that we’ve got some folks00:21watching uh where there’s a couple00:22people starting to show up00:24if you hear me give me a little00:28thumbs up or smiley face or some kind of00:30okay in the comments00:32you know that if you’ve been tuned in00:34the last few weeks you know that we’ve00:35been having00:36some weird audio issues so we’ll just00:38make sure that everything is00:40golden and we’re off to the races00:44and i’m excited that we get to have00:47today our guest today00:50is uh oh wait hang on one second i’m00:53getting i’m getting00:54signals getting signals00:58i want to make sure we’re all set here01:02all right01:09there we go brian shulman we got you01:11cato rob left thumbs up blend it hand01:13loud and clear01:14loud and clear glad to hear it folks01:17thank you so much you are01:19life savers all right well i want to01:21bring on01:22my guest david ryan paulgar oh my gosh01:26one of my favs one of my faves and i01:28know he’s a lot of your faves too01:30because when i made the announcement01:31that he was going to be on the show this01:32week there were like01:33there was much rejoicing there was uh01:35there was all this joy from the land01:38so let me just tell you a little bit01:41about david ryan polgar he is a leading01:44voice01:44in the area of tech ethics digital01:47citizenship01:47and what it means to be human in the01:49digital age is that perfect or what01:52david’s a global speaker he’s a regular01:54media commentator for national01:55international press01:56he’s a frequent advisor and consultant01:58on building a better tech future02:00he’s the co-host and creator of funny as02:02tech a new york city-based podcast an02:04occasional live show02:06back in the pre-covet days at least that02:08deals with our messy relationship with02:10technology02:11and is the founder of all tech is human02:13an accelerator for tech consideration02:15and hub for the responsible tech02:17movement david recently developed a02:19digital citizenship class for adults and02:21a tech ethics02:22hub for college students he serves as a02:24founding member02:25of tick tock’s content advisory council02:28along with the technology and adolescent02:30mental wellness02:31program so please help me welcome02:34david ryan polgar uh you are on my02:38friend02:38thank you so much for being here thank02:40you and you should have mentioned too02:42you were also a guest02:43live on stage in new york for funniest02:46tech so i always appreciated02:47uh not only kind of how you’re right02:50operating on the intersection of tech02:51and humanity02:52but you also uh you know apply certain02:54levity to that and i think that’s what02:55we need so that’s what i’ve been really02:57enjoying watching02:58uh the tech humanist show so far so uh03:00thrilled to be a guest and i know we03:02have03:02a lot to talk about so that’s why yeah03:05we do we really do we’re doing this for03:06seven hours right03:07seven hours is the plan yeah so i hope i03:10hope you’re all out there in the03:11audience land like03:13really ready to go seven hours get your03:15energy drink03:16you know uh you need two of the five03:18hour energy drinks and then you’ll have03:19a little left over03:20yeah yeah so what’s really funny is you03:23know i think03:24very few people know uh is that03:28i actually tried to start a podcast03:31about three years ago i got a few03:33recordings in03:35and then i was hit by a car and so i put03:38put the project aside and i didn’t come03:40back to it but few people know03:42that my very first guest was the david03:45ryan pulgar that you see here today03:48but david i don’t know if you remember03:49this but03:51i went back and listened to that audio03:53it would be interesting to go back to03:54see it the other day changed right03:56you did go back wow the archives and i03:59found something04:00i found something very funny given given04:02what happened to me a few months after04:04uh we got started04:07let’s say if somebody is in a bad driver04:10can you all hear this04:12that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t drive a04:14car there’s there’s car accidents all04:16the time it doesn’t mean that04:18you don’t teach we are talking about the04:21car driving analogy04:22uh because i think uh social media and04:24technology04:26there’s a lot of good things that can04:27happen so are you saying that he’s04:29really good i caused04:30yeah i think you caused it is what i04:33think happened04:34yeah life life is not final destination04:36although04:372020 i think feels like final04:38destination so04:40what very few people also know is that04:42you just had a tornado04:44uh affect your oh my god i know yeah i04:47mean in my life i balance between04:49uh manhattan where i’ll take this human04:51the oregon run is based04:52and then also uh living in in04:55connecticut and connecticut got slammed04:58with that storm so04:59it’s like you know i’m kind of giving up05:01on 2020. and uh yeah knocked down a05:03bunch of trees05:04so hey i’m uh i’m actually i i like call05:07up uh you know05:08my mom uh i’m sitting at her house right05:10now because i think i’m out of power for05:12for a week so05:13hey the bonus is that i get to see my05:15mom more so that’s uh05:16i’m gonna go with that yeah we family is05:18important yeah family is important and i05:20gotta say05:21your mom’s bookcase is a pretty good05:23bookcase it looks looks really she’s a05:25reader05:25i gotta say so uh i i’ve seen it a lot05:28i’ve learned a lot05:29uh you know i’m trying to get uh get it05:32through osmosis my mom’s05:33uh her brilliant she’s she’s really good05:35at trip pursuit she’s a05:36great reader uh so yeah definitely a05:38very thoughtful woman yeah i feel like05:40this is an 11 out of 10 on one of those05:41rate my bookshelf05:42twitter accounts um we can just submit05:45it to you and see what they say05:47but i did i didn’t scan what actual05:49books are behind me so hopefully there’s05:50nothing kind of like embarrassing but i05:52think i think i think she’s05:54she’s above board that’s good05:57well you know i think this is really05:58it’s it’s going to be so fun to talk to06:00you and i know we’re going to cut into06:02so much of our time with just joking06:03around with each other it was really06:05also funny uh just to just to point this06:08out too06:08is that the last time that uh david and06:11i saw each other06:12it was days before the lockdown began06:16and we recorded and as far as i know as06:18yet to be06:19earthed you know heard show06:22uh but it was a fantastic discussion it06:24was supposed to be i loved it06:25yeah it was like tech ethicist versus06:28tech humanist06:29right although i think the versus did a06:31lot of work in that statement because06:32there’s06:34very little versus that is actually06:36coming coming up because06:37uh when you reached out my way i said06:39wait a minute kate and i we recorded06:42a podcast together in in march and06:44that’s when everybody was doing the06:45elbow bump remember that was a thing for06:46a while06:48so we did that when we saw each other uh06:50but no i guess it’s uh06:52it’s being fine-tuned so that’s going to06:54come out so cool06:55so we’ll include that in show notes uh06:57for folks if you know if you want to06:58check that out once once that’s live07:00i’ll make sure to circle back and07:02include a link to that07:03uh so yeah so what you know what’s07:06really interesting about you07:07david is not only do you have you know07:09this great tech ethics07:11perspective and you’re you know you yeah07:13as you mentioned07:14there’s this levity uh that you know you07:16you complimented me on that but of07:18course that’s right back at you and07:19and of course this human-centric07:21approach to what you do07:22but you’re also i think folks may not07:25know that you’re also07:26an attorney an educator by background07:28right so you’re bringing so07:30many perspectives yeah well i gotta say07:33too07:33something that doesn’t get discussed a07:35lot in the media is that there07:36are actually a lot of attorneys involved07:39in the responsible tech space07:40so for example with my role with tick07:42tock i’m dealing with07:44trust in safety content moderation types07:46of teams07:47the vast majority of people i interact07:49with are are attorneys and07:50one of the issues is sometimes when we07:52think of attorneys we think of it in07:53terms of like07:54you can’t do this a compliance type of07:56mentality right however when you really07:58think about the law08:00one the law is steeped in in the concept08:02of ethics but two08:03it’s also all about critical thinking so08:06when you think about your last08:07conversation you had with an attorney08:09guess what they tend to do they tend to08:10think of worst case scenario they tend08:12to think of permutations they say well08:13okay i see what you’re trying to do but08:15here’s how you could08:17this could go wrong well one of the08:19reasons why we actually08:20need more people like that in tech is08:23because08:24a lot of times a technologist would have08:26a certain bias and everybody has bias08:27right i have my own bias08:29but they would have a certain kind of08:30bias to saying okay here’s what i’m08:32creating as a product08:33and here’s the intended use of it08:35whereas a lot of the work that i try to08:37do and try to bring is saying08:39yes we we need to focus on the intended08:41use but also bring in the idea of the08:43unintended consequences of it the08:45downstream08:46impact the negative externalities so you08:48do actually need some worst case08:50scenario people in here because for08:52example when you take a a a08:54product like twitter jack dorsey has08:56come out in recent years when we’ve seen08:58how authoritarian governments have09:00exploited09:00the platform and he said well you know i09:03kind of wish i designed this differently09:05in other words it would have been09:06beneficial to have other people who say09:08hey i get how this can lead to the09:10spread of democracy but how would it be09:11used by authoritarian governments who09:13can utilize this to track09:15uh dissidents political dissidents how09:17would this be used when the actual09:19uh you know authoritarian type of09:21government is the one who’s clamping09:23down on speech09:24uh and and that’s something where we09:26need to incorporate09:27more ideas and more more voices yeah how09:30can this be weaponized right09:32that’s the big question across a lot of09:34technology and i think that’s09:36as i keep coming back to and i know you09:38you must as well is one of the reasons09:39why it’s so important to have diverse09:41teams and diverse perspectives that are09:43weighing in on the development of09:45technology09:46yeah well that’s the big thing kate that09:49i think we should always focus on is09:50that09:51we all have our limitations and one of09:53the mistakes that i09:54want to kind of point out that i still09:56see that it’s happening right now09:58is that we still focus on saying like10:00hey how can we get jack dorsey to do a10:02better job how can we10:03get mark zuckerberg to be more ethical10:05and yes that’s important10:06you so you want you know those people in10:08that position of power10:10to to to be more ethical and responsible10:12but you also need to say10:14it’s not about one person it from from10:16an american perspective10:18right that’s very dangerous to have a10:19consolidation of power10:21right one person should not decide the10:23fate of three billion people like that’s10:25antithetical10:26to the very idea of what it means to be10:28a10:29an american like that american kind of10:30kind of experience so i think10:32a lot of uh social media let’s say10:35what it’s going to do in the coming10:37years is it’s going to start10:39integrating itself into the social10:41structures to actually say like how can10:43we have representation10:44the quote that i’m kind of using lately10:46is i like to say no10:47application without representation right10:51well because think about it like the10:52phone that i’m carrying around in my10:54pocket10:55that impacts the people i interact with10:57it impacts the news that i get which is10:59really10:59how i view the world it’s it’s altering11:02the human condition11:03that is not like selling somebody tacos11:06right that’s not something that we11:07normally say this is a private company11:08they can do what they want go to another11:09taco stand11:10it’s not it’s actually impacting how i11:13see the world11:14that is so consequential so my big big11:17pitch is that11:19emerging technology especially social11:20media has such a profound11:22impact on us on an individual level and11:25also societal11:26that it behooves us to to be more11:28thoughtful about it and also incorporate11:31more of society in this process11:34so if your social media company there11:35needs to be more transparency there11:37needs to be more involvement11:38we’re starting to see uh a push that11:41that direction11:42well it has become so entrenched in the11:45political conversation right it’s it’s11:47now inextricable like the social media11:49platforms11:50and politics are inextricable from one11:52another in ways that they weren’t even11:54just a few years ago11:56we’ve entered i think the politics of11:57technology that’s the phrase that i kind11:59of think about is that12:02oftentimes we we like to say well you12:04know our congress they’re just not12:05technical enough and they’re they’re too12:07old right12:08okay yes we want to have more technical12:10uh expertise but even as we saw with the12:12recent anti-trust12:14hearing well guess what the our congress12:16now is more educated on these issues12:18because they have a lot of12:19you know talented advisers that are some12:21of them some of them12:22but but the the bigger point is that12:25when you take a an issue let’s say like12:28um facial recognition12:30that’s not about understanding what12:33facial recognition12:34is it’s about determining not only the12:37reliability and12:38bias behind it but also whether or not12:41we want to incorporate that12:43into communities that are going to be12:44impacted by it12:46so these are actually social problems we12:48like to frame them as technical issues12:50oh you know a it’s a tech question it’s12:52actually not it’s it’s a question of12:54power12:54and equity and access equality12:57these are these are classic issues so a13:00lot of what i think13:00we need to do is incorporate the13:02learnings that we’ve had throughout13:04society in hundreds of years and13:06and say wait these seem like new topics13:08we’re talking about social media but13:09but uh they’re not actually new topics13:11they’re they’re about access and power13:14it’s almost like you could matrix out13:16all the different facets of you know13:17technology and then different facets of13:19society and and13:21kind of mix and match and say well we13:22need to make sure that tech and politics13:24have13:25you know the right kind of mixing and13:27oversight we need to make sure that tech13:29and the economy have the right kind of13:30mixing and oversight from a social13:32justice perspective from an equality13:34perspective from13:35you know a an ethics perspective and13:38what we want the the future of humanity13:40to look like13:41well that’s the big thing i’m starting13:43to really uh think about with social13:45media platforms because13:47when you read a terms of service you13:49know traditionally13:50any social media company is going to13:52have the terms of service and their13:53community guidelines13:54and oftentimes when you read them if13:56you’ve actually gone through and said13:57hey let me let me13:58read what i agreed to uh it’s going to14:01talk about these community standards and14:03not offending the community standards14:05well what i’ve really been kind of14:07grappling with is14:08we’re assuming a lot right we’re14:10assuming that we understand the14:12community14:12so i i think people are starting to call14:15push back on that idea a little bit and14:16say okay well if this is truly a14:18community standard14:19then we actually need to understand what14:21the community desires14:23because at the end of the day it’s14:25usually a select few people who are14:27making decisions14:28in the name of community and i think a14:30lot of what’s going to have to happen is14:31we’re going to say14:32okay well what does the community14:34actually think about these issues14:36right so and that’s where it is the14:38messiness of a democracy we need to come14:40up with a system14:41that that understands it a little better14:43and i think we have to ask whether we’re14:45making14:45the concept of community do a little too14:47much work there in terms of a platform14:49right like14:50right community really is about some on14:52some level of shared identity and if14:54you’re talking about a platform that’s14:56supposed to host14:57a wide variety of identities and a wide14:59variety of discussions it feels like15:01you know maybe that’s more of a more15:03macro sense than what community is meant15:06to15:06be the model or metaphor for yeah well15:09and that’s where a lot of people15:11kind of use reddit and subreddits as an15:13example where you almost have these15:15micro communities that can have their15:16own15:17individual types of standards and then15:19within the umbrella of reddit you would15:21have15:22a thousand different standards so that’s15:24kind of interesting because15:26i do think it’s very difficult to come15:28up with one15:29one community standard because even if15:31you look across different platforms like15:33or even any platform it’s got people15:35across15:36geography across ages you know uh15:39different different uh15:40different backgrounds and that’s gonna15:41influence what their expectation15:44of of uh inappropriate behavior15:47is sure and then i think you know i15:50think you sort of alluded to this in in15:52uh some15:52conversation we had before the show15:54began that you know there’s15:56there’s a concept in in social justice15:57about impact being more important than15:59intent right and so i think when we talk16:01about you know the nature of uh16:04community and content moderation which16:05i’d like to get into a little more16:07it feels like we’re really concerned far16:10we should be16:11really more concerned with the impact on16:13the humans who are16:14part of right those communities are part16:16of the platform who are experiencing16:19what the platform you know is kind of16:21serving up to them16:23well we have to in what’s what’s tricky16:25about16:26social media and speech online is we16:28tend to apply16:30our kind of free speech first amendment16:33uh understanding of it and one this is16:35complicated by the fact that16:36social media companies are private16:38companies and if you you know in the16:39constitution16:40what the first amendment actually16:41applies to is what the government cannot16:43do16:44so this is all tricky and it’s getting16:45into a lot of the issues with trump and16:47twitter and issues like that16:49but but anyways even if you take this16:51first amendment understanding16:53when you think about speech and this is16:54something that doesn’t get pointed out16:56enough16:58it’s always actually a balance between a17:00individualistic standpoint and a17:02collectivist17:03standpoint and a classic example that17:04everybody most everybody knows17:07is we like to say you cannot yell fire17:09in a crowded theater17:10but let’s back up that statement a17:12little more nobody in the world is17:14saying that you cannot yell17:15fire so when you say you cannot yell17:17fire in a crowded theater17:19crowd the crowded theater is is is very17:23contextual17:23saying that well if you’re young fire17:25inside of a crowded theater17:26then it’s going to have a foreseeable17:29impact on the broader community to17:31create chaos which would lead to to17:33violence and an injury therefore we’re17:36going to weigh your right as a speaker17:38to yell fire17:39and then say what’s the impact of it17:41which then is going to overwhelm it and17:43say don’t yell fire in a crowded theater17:45again nobody said you can’t yell fire17:47totally different things and17:49what we’re starting to see with social17:50media is people oftentimes get confused17:53because they say well wait a minute this17:54is this is my right17:56but the very idea of being in society18:00means that you’re constantly in a18:02compromise of18:03what you want to do versus what society18:06determines right so like if you have as18:08an individual say18:10i want to be a nudist right you can18:12think that but but if you start18:14walking in your community without18:15clothes on uh18:17but maybe a mask right hey you’re you’re18:20healthy that way18:21but but you had no clothes 202018:23appropriate here 2020 appropriate so18:25so you just have you just have a mask on18:27but no clothes18:28well guess what you’re going to get in18:29trouble because even though your18:31individual right is being infringed on18:34because it is18:35right because your determination of what18:36is is right18:38it still is balanced against a community18:40type of type of standard18:42so that’s the the tricky part with18:44social media is18:45if we’re going to determine more of this18:47community standard18:48it’s going to have to be more on a uh18:51elected type of type of mentality so for18:53example18:54we make our or our laws based on saying18:58like okay let’s have18:59a you know a congress that is the19:01legislative branch and then the19:03executive branch carries it out and the19:04judicial branch interprets the law19:07and i think if you apply that to social19:09media people aren’t talking about this19:11now but i think they will19:12in that the problem that’s actually19:15happening19:15that people get frustrated with with19:17facebook and twitter19:18and and snap and and uh tick tock is19:22they say well wait a minute19:23you’re creating a law and then you’re19:26enforcing the law19:27and you’re interpreting the law that19:29that’s highly19:31that’s highly problematic in the sense19:32that it creates a little bit of like19:35reverse engineering and that’s why19:36people a lot of times say well wait a19:38minute like19:38how are you treating you’re treating19:40people differently are you treating19:41trump differently19:42than you would different than you treat19:44somebody else and the reason why that’s19:46important is because19:47when we think about free speech we like19:50to say19:50that you cannot be arbitrary and19:52capricious right so19:54so you have to treat like you and i have19:56to be treated the same19:57under the law and if we’re not then then19:59the law should be struck down20:01likewise people are starting to relate20:04to social media laws as as being20:08consequential to their life and whereas20:10we have not recognized them we’re saying20:11wait20:12it’s just a social media company guess20:13what as soon as i uh joined uh20:16tick tocks content advisory council i20:18got slammed with so many emails20:21from from people who say wait a minute20:23my account just got closed down20:25and i know everybody on the board is20:26facing this and20:28and my takeaway from that was one20:31now my inbox is too full but two two20:34is that i said wow like this is really20:37important to people20:38i mean that’s something we cannot forget20:40is that every time we’re making a20:42decision20:43it’s impacting somebody’s ability to20:45communicate it’s impacting their ability20:47to connect20:48with their friends it’s impacting20:49frankly a lot of times their ability to20:52to make money because a lot of people20:53are making money on you know influencer20:55economy and stuff like that so20:57it’s a big deal so so you can’t be21:00you can’t be flippant about the fact21:02that that that21:04social media companies have a lot of21:06power and i don’t think frankly they21:07want this power but right now they have21:09a lot of power21:10and we’re trying to decide how best to21:12to structure that21:13so then the job of content moderation21:15becomes really complicated and i think21:17we’ve seen21:18you know this the the evaluation of how21:21that content moderation should be done21:23in terms of what you just discussed like21:26the21:26the social rules and the law and how21:29that’s applied21:31but in terms of the the actual tactics21:34of how content moderation is done21:36you know in terms of human moderation21:38versus ai21:39and then human review you know what are21:42you seeing in terms of the trends there21:44and and how does it play out to have uh21:47human moderators versus artificial21:50intelligence in the process21:52well uh people have exaggerated21:56the ability for ai to handle speech21:59online22:00uh it it frankly uh does not do a good22:03job it does a great job with like22:04pornography22:05right because you can start training it22:07on images and they have like well that’s22:09where it started i think a lot of22:11content moderation22:12really began there with microsoft and22:14that was actually a good example of22:15where they had industry sharing so22:17microsoft created this photo dna system22:19uh for for uh child pornography and then22:22shared it with the larger system because22:23of its22:24major societal uh value for it22:27but with with ai and speech22:30uh it it’s very hard to to to do so i22:33think it22:34can be helpful to to limit the amount of22:37human exposure to22:38violent activities right because nobody22:40should have to be looking through22:41beheading videos but but guess what22:43there are people who frankly usually22:45don’t get paid a lot of money who are22:47sifting through22:48the garbage the sewer of the internet i22:50mean think about it like22:51we we don’t like to think about it22:53because it’s very it’s very dour22:55but it’s still it’s still something that22:57is being done so like22:59all of this stuff that the worst the23:00worst that’s going on it’s still usually23:02somebody’s job to23:03to actually say okay is this is this23:05inappropriate is this something that23:06needs to be23:08reported to to to the authorities how do23:10you how do you get people involved so23:11it’s always been a promise23:13to have more ai involved with that23:16because then you would have less23:18less focus uh but as we’ve seen in a lot23:20of the reporting with23:21casey newton’s the verge and then even23:23before that with the23:24researcher out of ucla who’s done a lot23:26of great work on this sarah t23:28roberts uh on the really impact of it23:32now and i know when i talk to people in23:34that space they23:35they have a lot of uh methods for um23:38almost like uh i don’t know like23:41mindfulness types of23:42methods about how you deal with the fact23:44that you’re seeing things that23:45that no individual should should have to23:48see it can be very23:49we shouldn’t have to see one of them let23:51alone over and over and over23:53be subjected to that well and and that23:56is why23:57uh that’s why a lot of my focus has23:59actually been on saying okay24:01we tend to view it as human moderation24:03versus ai24:04and the reason why and this doesn’t get24:07pointed out enough but the reason why24:08social media24:09is is different than a media company is24:11because if you’re the wall street24:12journal24:12you filter and then you publish which24:14means you have a lot of control over24:16what gets published24:17whereas social media companies because24:19they’ve been so hyper focused on the24:20scalability of their24:22their product they say well let’s just24:24publish and then filter24:26and then they use some of the community24:27to help filter and then they have a24:28content moderation team mixed with human24:30and ai but where i’m obsessed with and24:33something i’m i’m writing about lately24:35and doing some work on24:36is that if we could incorporate a24:39greater level of friction24:41in the original process you would you24:43potentially could24:44massively lower the amount of initial24:47toxic24:48behavior that gets pushed out into the24:50system because we like to think of24:53and this is where you need psychologists24:54right but because we like to think of24:56the what’s on social media as like24:58humans are humans24:59and i would say that’s completely and25:02utterly25:02not how how this works because we’re25:05influenced by other people25:07we’re influenced by our environment25:09right so and that’s why we study25:10like what is what does the text box say25:12does it say like say something nice25:14or does it not say anything if it25:15doesn’t say anything you know where’s25:16your brain go25:17so what you’re going to see over over25:20time25:20is more of a focus to say can we lessen25:24the initial bad behavior that goes out25:27on the web and if we could then you25:29would have less people who25:30have to look at terrible behavior online25:33uh and then less dependence on25:35on ai systems so and less misinformation25:37i think you know unless25:38yes you published an article recently25:40about this idea25:42of friction and technology and you know25:44you had the example of25:45uh instagram asking you are you sure you25:47want to post this which25:49speaks to the the first example right25:51about cyber bullying and so on but the25:53the second one the second example you25:55gave was about twitter25:56having the uh the introduction into the25:59process26:00of retweeting where hey it’s like hey do26:02you want to read this26:03before you retweet it so yeah so26:06misinformation is is being slowed or26:08potentially being slowed a little bit26:09there26:10too well i’m glad you pointed that out26:12because26:13one of the things that that i i feel26:15like we need to have a different analogy26:17to26:17is oftentimes we like to say that26:19twitter is a megaphone26:21and i would say that’s not actually how26:23it works26:24right like twitter is not a megaphone26:26for trump or for other like heavy actors26:29on social media platforms it actually26:31works more like a symphony26:32where you have the one player who is a26:34conductor and then you have all these26:36other individuals who are playing26:37instruments a lot of times they’re26:39unknowingly adding26:41to the to the overall noise that a26:44person has so that’s why26:45if you’re twitter you would say we want26:46to prompt you to actually say did you26:48read this because26:49even though you you say you you care26:51about you know26:52misinformation and things like that you26:55might unintentionally26:57be part of the the the larger issue27:00right and this is where we’re talking27:01about the overall kind of health of the27:02information27:03ecosystem so that’s going to be that’s27:06going to be a major part27:07because i bet you you know if you’re the27:09same way27:10uh when you were growing up you probably27:12watched uh you know like jiminy cricket27:14remember the idea we had jimmy cricket27:16who was on your27:17your shoulder yeah right yes so what was27:19the idea like you had27:21you had the devil you had the good and27:23you say well what what do you think27:24about this27:25the very concept there is is supposed to27:27be about reflection27:29right and that reflection allows more27:32time to27:32to consider if something is good or not27:36and and frankly that is something that27:38is a part of27:39all of of law when you think about27:41criminal law27:42in any type like follow any murder trial27:44they’re always going to focus on the27:46actus reyes and the men’s ray i like the27:48act in the mental state27:50and we like to say in in law that27:52there’s there’s no thought police27:54right and the idea behind there is that27:57you don’t want to be able to read27:58somebody’s brain because their brain is28:00constantly filled with terrible28:02thoughts and that it only matters if28:04they act upon that like there’s a28:05concert between28:06the action and their mental state but28:09where28:10where a lot of emerging technology is28:11getting in the way of something we’ve28:13known for hundreds of years28:15is that the more you get closer to your28:18your actual initial impulse the worse28:21it’s going to be i mean28:23it’s painfully obvious because your28:25unfiltered brain28:27is not what should be out on the the28:30internet we know that like an example i28:32i always like to give uh in like28:35speaking and stuff is i say well28:36imagine if i had a device where i could28:38read everybody’s thoughts here28:40and people get really kind of like28:41embarrasses oh my god and they kind of28:43like snickered28:44like wait a minute like i probably28:46thought like these terrible things that28:47i should be arrested for28:49everybody has and what a lot of emerging28:52technology is doing especially if you28:54talk about28:54brain to text which is something you28:56know facebook and others are working on28:58frankly i’ve made amazing kind of29:00innovations on this right29:02is that if you can get closer to your29:05head29:05right right but the less distance29:07between head and side29:09the more problematic it’s going to be so29:11uh yeah i think uh29:13brain detects there’s going to be29:14obviously a lot of a lot of29:16fun issues with that because uh yeah we29:19we don’t want to be29:20mel gibson and read somebody’s uh no29:23right but29:23i think it’s also maybe let’s just cut29:25it there you don’t want to be mel gibson29:26don’t have email gibson that’s the end29:28of the podcast29:29no i think it’s a really interesting29:32point you know brain to text is a really29:35compelling idea for an interface and i29:37think you know anyone can imagine what29:39some of the29:40the potential there is on on a good side29:43right like it seems like29:44a lot of productivity uh but it’s very29:46very easy to see where that can be29:48weaponized and go wrong of course29:49the the other thing that i’m thinking29:51about is that we know29:53that predictive policing is increasingly29:55a field that’s uh that’s problematic and29:57that we’ve had29:58predictive analytics kind of tracking30:00everything that we’ve been doing30:02online and constructing these sort of uh30:06projected three-dimensional ideas of who30:09we are and what our aspirations are30:11uh based on sort of targeted advertising30:14but now it’s being taken into the realm30:16of criminal justice and and there’s30:18predictive policing that’s playing out30:20uh and of course that’s30:21disproportionately affecting communities30:23of color30:24uh so when we think about you know brain30:26detects and we think about you know30:28those types of applications30:30those are for sure the the applications30:32where we’re going to need to think about30:34weaponizing30:34you know how that gets weaponized and30:36what the impact of the experience of on30:38people is going to be so that’s a super30:40important30:41point well and what i would love to say30:43with that too30:44is that brings up something that we’re30:46obviously both30:47very very active in with this30:49intersection between technology and30:50humanity30:51and i think that the common question30:53that it’s actually getting at which is30:54something that people30:56dramatically disagree about is are we30:59an algorithm or are we kind of unique31:03right31:03like like i always joke like since i’m31:05i’m sitting right here my mother’s31:07library i can say this right my mom31:09always said right like i was a snowflake31:11i mean31:11i’m unique right there’s no nothing like31:13you and31:15there is nothing like that31:20and by the way you’re the jiminy cricket31:21on my shoulder i always think31:23what would david do when i go to post31:25something31:26well that’s why you know with so many31:28speaking gigs canceled uh what i’m31:29working on right now31:30is a a miniature uh david ryan polgar31:33that’s about six inches tall and then31:34you31:35you put it on your shoulder and perfect31:37and then you’re gonna be the first31:38person31:39so you’re gonna have no idea how badly31:41i’ve needed this31:43you know i have it with like a large31:44head so it looks a little more comical31:45and then you just put on your shoulder31:47and then anytime you’re having a bad31:48thought he says well no no no31:50you know yeah and then you pull the31:52string on the back it has a couple31:54uh catch phrases but from head to side31:57was that was that what you said earlier31:59like that’s going to be one of the32:00phrases32:01well but i think the other one is going32:02to be are you32:04an algorithm or are you unique because32:07because when you mention predictive32:08policing32:09and even when you think about you know32:12amazon and recommendations32:14it’s it’s thinking that your past is32:17predicting32:17your your future and that with enough32:20data32:21we can uh you know accurately determine32:24where your next step is right or even32:26with auto suggestion and things like32:28that32:28well what’s getting tricky is is is that32:32true32:32or is it subtly going to be off and then32:35the other32:36other part that i always like to bring32:37up which frankly doesn’t get enough32:39attention in the media32:41is that with a lot of these auto32:44suggestions based on our previous32:46behavior let’s say32:46like text right so like if i if i’m32:48texting somebody32:50it’s going to say okay this is how you32:52want to end your your statement this is32:53probably what you’re going to say32:55well the question i always like to think32:56about is how often32:58am i influenced by what they what they33:01said i should say33:02so if i want to write like have a and it33:05says great day33:07well maybe i was thinking great day but33:09maybe i was going to say33:10good day and it’s subtly different but33:12it it’s also influencing kind of my33:14my volition right and that’s i think a33:16larger larger question33:18is that now we’re being influenced by33:21the very33:21technology that’s pushing us in a33:23certain direction33:25and we like to think of it well it’s33:26already based on you but then33:28but then that has a certain cyclical33:30nature to actually33:31almost like um quantum human33:34consciousness or something33:35exactly like the moment you observe it33:37it’s changed right33:39this is why it’s going to be a seven33:40hour discussion because now i i think we33:42brought up more33:43questions than uh than answers well you33:45know i33:46also want to point out so uh lee odden33:48commented and asked predictive policing33:50as in minority report and i i think33:52there may well be people who are33:53watching who aren’t aware33:55of this trend of predictive policing so33:57i want to make sure that people33:58are aware that you know we’re not uh34:00speaking hyperbolically like there34:02there are you know kind of constructed34:04algorithms that are looking across34:06patterns of behavior and drawing lines34:08to demographics and enforcing you know34:11it’s kind of it’s broken windows34:12policing but with algorithms applied34:15so so there’s police police departments34:18that are enforcing34:19their or their deploying their units34:21more34:22based on what they expect is going to be34:24happening and of course it34:26disproportionately affects34:27uh communities of color and poorer34:30neighborhoods34:30so you know you know wherever you see34:32the police deployed more34:34often there are bound to be enforcing34:36more often so you get things like34:38this is the term broken windows policing34:40if there’s a broken window34:42you’re going to get arrested for that34:43are you going to get a ticket for for34:44something that34:45you know other people wouldn’t get a34:46ticket for white people driving down the34:48street aren’t going to get pulled over34:49for something34:50that a black driver being going down the34:52street might get pulled over for34:54so it’s a it’s a real concern and it’s34:55it’s a real issue34:57that uh that’s growing so i’m really34:59glad that lee you asked for that35:00clarification because i think35:02folks do need to know that that that’s35:04really happening out there35:06uh yeah in in amongst all of the other35:08kind of algorithmic bias35:10and predictive analytics uh kind of35:12quagmire that we’re dealing with35:13that that big over difficulty is35:17happening as well35:18yeah well but i think the the the other35:20part about predictive policing or just35:22that larger kind of concept with it is35:25one of the things that i’ve kind of35:26noticed uh with with altx human35:29is that there’s a real frustration35:32because people feel like they’re being35:34impacted by the technology on their35:36communities35:37before they have the ability to voice35:39their concerns35:40so one of the things that i’ve kind of35:42taken away from that is that35:44really the frustration and we like to35:46call it tech lash whatever35:48but the frustration that a lot of35:49society feels35:51is is seemingly between the gulf between35:54how fast technology moves and how slow35:57our consideration35:58of technology moves so that’s why you36:01know i like to say hey we’re forming36:02this accelerator for tech consideration36:04because36:05one of the traps that we oftentimes get36:06into is we like to say36:08well you can’t slow down innovation i36:10mean how many times have you heard that36:11well you can’t do that and it’s true36:13like you don’t want to but a lot of36:14uh a lot of like hurdles in the way of36:17an innovator right because36:18they want to be unchecked with within36:20term with in terms of their innovation36:22and creativity36:23yeah again we’re making innovation do a36:25lot of work as a word36:26oh true that’s true that’s true that is36:29a very36:30very large catch-all now but i think the36:33key part36:34is to say well what if we could also36:35speed up our ability36:37to think about how this technology would36:39be utilized36:40so before predictive policing policing36:43is happening in the communities and now36:45you know we’re talking about that it is36:47we would need to say okay36:49this needs to be in front of our you36:51know our elected officials we need to36:53have a political36:54conversation about these because again36:56these aren’t technical issues36:57these are issues about what do we want37:00so this is where a lot of predictive37:02policing37:03and uh you know facial recognition it’s37:05actually a two-part question because37:07it’s37:07it’s one about making these systems more37:09fair but then37:11the larger question before you even get37:13to the fairness is37:14do we even want these these systems37:16right because you you could decide as a37:18you know society that we said well no37:19this is something that we37:21we don’t want to have and that’s37:23obviously happened with a lot of um you37:24know37:25cities and facial recognition right now37:26saying let’s put it on pause till we37:28really37:29figure this out a little more yeah this37:30technology itself and then there’s how37:32it affects human experience and that’s37:34kind of the under underpinning of this37:36show is to examine37:37you know how data and big data and and37:40technology sort of especially emerging37:42technology37:43kind of impacts humanity at scale and37:46when you think about the deployment37:47across society and all these different37:49facets that you’re talking about37:50politics37:51and how you know sort of social37:54experiences or37:55experiences in community in in37:57neighborhoods there’s so many different37:59facets for this and it goes so far38:01beyond38:02what the technology is capable of38:04believe me technology is capable of so38:06much right now and i say believe me to38:08our audience i know of course38:10you are very familiar so i actually want38:11to sort of steer there because you you38:13mentioned38:14with um yeah alltech is human and and38:16the uh38:18curating and accelerating all these38:20ideas i wonder38:22it strikes me that the one of the things38:24you and i have in common is that we are38:26surrounding ourselves with people who38:28are big thinkers38:29in technology and so it’s it’s not just38:31that we’re38:32thinking and speaking and working in the38:34space but that we are curators of the38:36space in a sense so i wonder38:37in your work curating both funny as tech38:40and all tech as human38:42what have been some of the ideas that38:44you’ve encountered38:45from some of your guests that have been38:47the most38:48mind-blowing or cool or that you might38:51not have otherwise encountered38:53well actually the the biggest thing and38:55i say this because this is like such my38:57obsession lately you know so i’m trying38:59to do more mono tasking in life39:01the biggest takeaway that i’ve learned39:03just from kind of interacting with a lot39:05of people is39:06lately i have a lot of college and grad39:08students who are reaching out because39:09they want to get involved in the space39:12and i was having a conversation recently39:14and they said well you know like how did39:15you39:16how did you get involved in this space39:17and i said well you know kind of by like39:19brute force39:20like you know i just kind of said this39:21this needs to be a thing and let’s make39:23it a thing over over years39:25and then they they kind of push back on39:27that a little bit and they said well39:29that that probably also a little bit of39:31like privilege behind that because uh39:33you know you assume that you could just39:35make a space or do39:36do something or create your own kind of39:38career39:40and i really took that to heart to say39:42wow you know39:43that is that is kind of kind of true so39:46uh39:47something i’ve been really kind of39:48working on is like well then39:50what does this space look like how do39:52people actually get involved because39:54we’re all saying hey we want more people39:55who are39:56thinking about responsible tech stuff39:57like that but one of the things that39:59i noticed by having all these40:01conversations is that people40:02said that sounds great i’m excited i you40:05know i see all this media coverage40:07but nowhere in there did they say like40:10what are the jobs what what kind of40:12school what are the skills that i40:14that i need like like now you see all40:16these like responsible innovation like40:17facebook just announced this and you see40:19salesforce they’ve got a lot humane tech40:21and stuff like that that they’re doing40:23and they say okay well how do i how do i40:25do that40:26and one of the other things that i that40:28i have learned over time40:30is that so many people who are actually40:32in those positions of40:34power you know i’m having a conversation40:36with them and they say40:38uh well yeah i kind of have like a funny40:40background it’s not necessarily just a40:41traditional tech background and i said40:43you’re perfect for this40:44exactly exactly because that is40:47something that we need40:48to emphasize over and over and over40:51again because40:52the problem that is is still occurring40:54is that40:55people think that they’re not welcome40:58and i and40:58you know i really want to emphasize that41:00because technology is affecting the41:03human condition right now emerging41:04technology right in social media41:06so we need the saints and the poets and41:09the attorneys41:10and the psychologists and the41:11sociologists and the social workers we41:13need everybody because these are41:14social problems we frame them as41:16technical issues and you want to solve41:18the technical issues41:19but but really these are social problems41:22therefore we actually need more social41:24problem solvers41:25and then it’s going to be like a hybrid41:27so you know i recently saw that like uh41:29you know a lot of organizations like af41:31were all they’re focused on like okay41:33how can we kind of like incorporate41:35a broader degree of like uh competence41:38in41:38certain areas and i think that’s the41:40future is that you’re going to have41:42these kind of like hybrid41:43hybrid types of careers so to kind of41:45fully answer your questions like41:47i’ve learned from from a lot of people41:49that uh41:50we need actual onboarding uh that was41:53like the big aha41:54it’s like nobody has focused uh on41:57onboarding people41:58into the responsible tech ecosystem so42:01uh that’s where that’s what i’m trying42:03to do with all texas human we’re you42:04know putting out this like guide in42:05september and42:07uh you know it’s gonna focus on that to42:09actually say like here’s somebody’s42:10education journey here’s somebody who’s42:12getting a phd in this right now42:13here’s somebody who who works at a42:15center or wherever you know42:17focus on ai ethics and then here’s job42:20titles that42:21are coming up here’s the organization42:22here’s here’s like 500 organizations in42:24the space let’s hear from them42:26because we tend not to have the human42:28side of it we you know we have these42:29like media stories around it but nobody42:31actually says like42:32how do i do that we need to have42:35like like think about all the problems42:37we have today we need42:39the the 20 year old who’s like excited42:41about this to say42:43i have a path that there’s an actual42:45pathway42:46to to to be a uh you know to be involved42:49so so basically i’m just trying to like42:51you know find all my replacements42:53yeah and that’s great i think that’s so42:55important and i get asked that question42:57a lot too42:58and there’s there’s never a good answer42:59so i’m i’m43:01just fascinated and excited that you’re43:03putting that together i43:04my answer is often that you know43:06whatever field you came up through43:08is the field right to kind of come from43:12in order to do this you just need to43:13bring this well-rounded perspective43:16that you have and a lot of times it43:18feels like the people that i know43:20that have similar uh kinds of focus to43:23to you and43:24my and to myself are coming out of user43:27experience backgrounds or product43:29backgrounds and that’s wonderful i think43:30those are great43:31kind of holistic backgrounds within tech43:34but of course as you’re saying i think43:35we need the humanist perspective43:37from beyond tech as well and it needs to43:40overlap with that43:41well i mean one of the big kind of43:44classic points that happened43:45let’s say with social media uh for this43:48was a bunch of years ago you know you43:49had this father whose daughter died and43:52then43:52he kept on seeing photos of his of his43:55uh deceased daughter and it really43:56bothered him because he said well i43:58didn’t i don’t want to see this43:59but because we weren’t thinking about44:01the the kind of44:02impact of over you know seeing somebody44:05uh somebody’s loved one who’s now44:07deceased44:08we were just thinking like this happened44:09a year ago therefore i’m going to44:11display this44:12and that’s where like at facebook at the44:14time they had to hire their compassion44:15team that they call it which since44:17changed its name but it really pointed44:19out that the need to say44:21wait a minute like anything we’re44:23working on and it’s like44:24you mentioned some of the the you know44:27really interesting but44:28uh also kind of like hey we’re gonna44:30have a lot of issues technology like44:31uh you know uh brain computer interface44:34and then you know we didn’t talk about44:36virtual reality but obviously with44:37virtual reality and augmented reality44:39and xr44:40uh there’s there’s a whole host of44:42issues that are totally like44:44unsolved right now but that’s also like44:46it’s it’s scary but also exciting44:48it’s exciting because somebody listening44:50to this right now44:52could actually be the person who like44:55really helps out and solves the problem44:57and that’s something that i think44:58sometimes we forget it’s like it’s like45:00the classic idea it’s like45:02somebody’s got to do this so right now45:04we have major issues that need to be45:06solved45:06and it’s like somebody needs to solve45:08these we need more people who are like45:11let’s get in the mud and let’s have45:13these these important conversations45:14yeah i think it’s really always45:16important to to be able to think about45:17the full range of possibilities45:19with tech or with anything and know that45:22this could go really badly45:24and also this could go really well and45:26in my mind45:27if once you see that range of45:29possibilities it is your45:30ethical obligation to work toward making45:33it go really well45:34you just want to plan out what do we45:36have to do to make it go really well and45:38avoid the really bad45:40well i remember when uh clearview ai45:43there was a cashmere45:44hill article in the new york times a few45:46months back and that was that one that45:48kind of45:48you know presented a lot of problems45:49with like facial recognition and one of45:51the45:52i believe investors was quoted in the45:54piece and he said something akin to45:57well you know it might lead to a45:59dystopian future but46:00what can i do and i said well that’s the46:02exact problem that’s so defeatist46:05and one of the reasons why we you know46:07and i named it all tech is human46:09is i wanted to put the agency back on us46:11because this is not coming from the46:13heavens46:14right anything that we create is usually46:16within the larger structure of deciding46:18what we want to incorporate in our46:19society what we want to allow what we46:21don’t want to allow46:23we should not forget we should not kind46:25of like forget our responsibility46:27behind this the future is not written if46:30the future was written46:31then i would be riding around on my 3d46:34printed segway46:35wearing my google glass that i bought46:36with my cryptocurrency but guess what46:39guess what we’re using skype i think46:40that was like invented in estonia like46:4215 years ago46:43right so the future is not written46:46we are the ones who are determining the46:48future let’s not forget that46:51yeah that’s a that’s why i have david46:53and pogar on my shoulder46:54by the way everyone yes you’re waiting46:56for that you’re46:58such an important point and i also think47:00you know it’s also good to be47:02able to be optimistic about technologies47:05and think about what the47:06the opportunity is you know while as you47:09say47:10you know kind of containing the the bad47:12outcomes so47:13what is it that you are most optimistic47:15about with47:16the future of technology or the future47:19of human experiences that technology can47:21provide i mean it’s hard it’s obviously47:24hard to find a silver lining with with47:26everything going on covet which is47:28obviously47:28a you know a major major kind of47:30emotional and physical47:32disaster for for so many so many of us47:34but one thing that i i47:35do think it is causing is to say what do47:38we want from our technology47:39so for example over over the last couple47:41years we’ve talked about like let’s say47:42telepresence machine47:44or you know using robotics like spot the47:46dog from boston dynamics47:48but now it’s actually a time where we47:49need that stuff like if you had47:51somebody’s loved one47:52in the hospital that you couldn’t visit47:54because because you would get sick47:56that is actually a time where you would47:58want a telepresence machine that is48:00effectively like a robot that’s got an48:01ipad to it that would zip in there48:03right so a lot of these technologies48:07can enhance these these these moments or48:10can extract48:10more more value from it so i think now48:13is also a time where we’re saying okay48:15how can we then better align48:17you know you know what i’m saying like48:18the the best and brightest of our48:20generation48:21should not be focused on getting us to48:23to you know click on an ad48:25it should be focused on improving48:27humanity and if there’s one thing that’s48:28pointed out48:29with 2020 as it’s gone so far it’s that48:32we have48:33major societal issues but we also have48:36the talent and48:37you know expertise to solve some of48:39these and another area48:40that that i think should be focused on a48:42little more48:43is we are really missing out on human48:47touch48:47and i think that you know if this48:49continues for a couple months48:50it’s really going to start impacting us48:52i mean i frankly i feel impacted by it48:54because we we need to hug one another we48:57need to48:58we need to shake hands as americans and49:00i know some people you know49:02would disagree but we need49:05warmth we need presence of somebody and49:08i would love it right now if there was a49:11way that like49:12we ended this this conversation and like49:15we had some type of haptic feedback49:17where like you could like pat me on the49:19shoulder or something like that49:20because everybody right now isn’t is an49:24avatar so i’ve gotta i’ve gotta have49:26something to say like49:27kate like you and i are our friends we49:30know each other49:31right so i want a greater connection49:33with you49:34than than with any other video that i49:36can watch online right now49:38you are more important than that other49:40video but right now it’s still very49:43very two-dimensional and i’m not feeling49:45anything from you and i think49:47there’s going to have to be a lot more49:48focus on saying how can i feel this49:50conversation more49:51because i mean listen i mean people are49:53sick and tired right now49:54like not another zoom call you know it49:57but if if there was some kind of feeling49:59behind it50:00then you would say okay i feel nourished50:02whereas right now50:03you sometimes feel exhausted yeah i felt50:06nourished like i50:07felt somebody then that that actually50:09could be really powerful50:11someone just shared and i i retweeted it50:14but someone shared with me50:15on twitter uh a denim jacket i think it50:18was50:18maybe zara or ikea or h m or someone i50:22can’t remember who was pushing it50:24but it was one of these devices where50:26you know you wear the jacket and someone50:28else wears the jacket and50:29if you sort of tap the shoulder it’s50:32going to tap the shoulder of the person50:33who’s wearing the jacket50:34i don’t know but i see a lot of these50:36kinds of things yes50:37gifting like there’s a whole kind of50:40trend50:41in gifts that there’s haptic and and50:44sort of visual feedback like if i give50:46you a device that sits on your table and50:48i have one sitting on my table50:50anytime i think of you if i just you50:52know tap the device it lights up in your50:54room50:55oh kate’s thinking to me that’s nice50:57right right there’s a lot of promise for50:59it because again51:00we’re not trying to replace humanity but51:02we’re trying to always do51:04is no matter where you stand on an issue51:07at the end of the day we’re actually51:08pretty basic we want more friends51:11we want more love right they’re actual51:14face emotions51:15and and i think covet has really set51:17that in motion to say51:18hey we can disagree about a lot in life51:20but what we’re trying51:22to do is is get more value be happier51:25as as humans and be more fulfilled51:29be more kind of educated and like51:31stimulated51:32and technology has a major role in that51:35and now it’s about saying like51:37how can it be more focused on that as51:39opposed to something that is more kind51:40of a51:41extractive in nature that’s wonderful51:43and as obviously you know as i would say51:45it would be about meaning and meaningful51:46experiences and that’s51:48that’s what for me always comes back to51:50is there a concept that it always comes51:52back to for you51:52is there kind of this one core theme51:54that you always find yourself returning51:56to51:58uh well i think that’s why i went with51:59all tech as human because it did come52:01down to that because52:03when i was thinking about algorithm bias52:05things of that nature it always would52:07come down to say52:09it’s about our human agency it’s about52:12what we’re going to allow52:14this is not happening to us this is us52:18we are part of the process we are not52:20just like magically watching something52:22take place and i think52:23we oftentimes forget that so yeah for me52:25i always just52:26would come back to say hey alltech is52:28human so i’m like you know52:29i’m gonna run run with that as an52:31organization hey52:32if you’re a brander you might say that’s52:34a terrible idea you got to put52:35foundation or something like that in52:37in the name but uh you know i’m gonna52:39stick with it52:40i think it’s great of course you know52:42it’s so similar to my own work so i’ve52:44always loved it52:46we’re so aligned in that uh but you know52:48you talk you’ve been talking a lot about52:50this idea that52:51you know tech is not neutral and we52:52quote kim creighton a lot on this show52:54it’s52:55happened several times over the the last52:57few episodes that we’ve talked about kim52:58creighton and her her53:00principles and tech is not neutral is53:02one of those principles so53:03i want to make sure that folks are aware53:05of the wonderful work and scholarship53:06she’s done53:07and promoting that notion so uh53:10hey what um what do you think that we53:13could do53:14in culture just in general to stand a53:16better chance of bringing about53:18the best futures with tech as opposed to53:20the worst features53:21yeah well what we can do is actually get53:25more involved in the process one i think53:27that the part of the issue is we don’t53:28feel like we can53:30but we’re going to have to demand that53:31we are and i think a lot of this53:33frankly is going to come down to53:34political involvement to say that53:37we want we want these these53:38conversations to to to53:40be happening we don’t want uh it to be53:43going in two different directions we53:44don’t want something to be adopted53:46and deployed right before we’ve had a53:48chance to actually say what53:50what do we actually desire so that’s the53:52biggest part is that53:54uh everybody needs to to add their voice53:57uh because these are political issues uh53:59and right now sometimes people think54:01well i’m not54:01i’m not a techie uh guess what i mean54:04listen we’re uh54:05if you’re caring around as smart all the54:06more reasons54:07[Laughter]54:09exactly we need everybody so that’s the54:12biggest thing and i say that because54:14that’s probably the most common uh54:16misconception that that happens all the54:17time54:17you know i i had somebody that the other54:19day who who said uh you know something54:21like54:22yeah you know like with my background as54:23social like i didn’t think that that i54:25could get involved with something with54:26like machine learning it’s like54:27then they were like excited that it’s54:29like wait there are these54:31opportunities right because technology54:34is is much larger so technology is54:35society right so it’s like these are54:37actual like54:37social issues and i think once we start54:40start54:40uh applying that then we start saying54:42yeah yeah i can54:44i can get involved uh you know and and54:46that’s what we need to54:47to really do i i think as a society is54:50like54:51get plugged in and be part of the54:53process how can people get involved with54:55uh all tech as human or funny as tech54:57how can people follow54:59and sure what’s going on there well uh55:01if you want to get involved i mean i i55:03would say with with all tech assuming55:04you go to altercasehuman.org55:06or write us at hello at alltech is55:09human.org55:10uh funny as tech is just funny as tech55:12dot com uh55:14obviously we’re doing the live shows on55:16pause and and just doing regular kind of55:18podcast uh recordings but with with all55:20to consuming a lot of opportunities to55:22get involved so even right now with this55:24guide55:24we’ve got i think about now 20 2555:27collaborators all throughout the globe55:29who are piecing together all these55:30different organizations and job titles55:32and doing interviews things like that55:34so it’s becoming a very kind of like55:36global effort that we’re looking55:38for these different backgrounds so for55:40example like we just added somebody uh55:42earlier today from the uk55:43and then you know she was looking at55:45some of the raw material we had said hey55:46you forgot these55:47three or four organizations it’s like55:49that’s exactly why we need all these55:50different people because55:52i’m not in the uk right like you want55:54all these people who say wait55:55don’t forget this part you know so we55:57just got a few people from india and55:59other locations56:00and that’s what you need to basically56:02say like well don’t forget this56:04this perspective because that’s56:06something else i learned is56:07as i know when we were doing a talk56:09recently for autism human56:10on balancing uh handling like56:13misinformation versus like56:14free expression promoting free56:16expression uh you know somebody from the56:18uk said to me well56:19that’s kind of like a very american kind56:21of idea56:22you know in the uk we’re going to56:24balance that that differently and it’s56:25like yeah that’s that’s that’s a good56:26point56:27we shouldn’t we shouldn’t forget our our56:29limitations or our kind of bias56:31that we’re going to have so anybody no56:34matter where you are56:35please uh please get involved and you56:37can also kind of reach out to me56:38um yeah honestly on linkedin i’m56:40probably the most active uh i’m not as56:42good56:42as you on on twitter but yeah i do i am56:44at tech ethicist56:46um but yeah they have great handles that56:48that’s easy to write thank you56:49thank you yes but uh that yeah that that56:52is56:52uh although like people have a a tough56:55time saying the word ethicist56:57so i tend to get involved with uh with56:58with terms that that57:00are tongue twisters like i also started57:02something before autism called the57:03digital citizenship summit57:05and often times i’d be on tv and the57:07newscaster would say like the digital57:09citizenship oh my god like57:11come up with a better term man i mean57:14they didn’t say that57:15yes i don’t know i was i was reading57:17their brain to text and that’s frankly57:18what they57:19what they’re saying to me like get this57:21clown57:22off and like have them come up with57:24better57:26short distance from head to side in that57:28case57:29exactly i had to say digital citizenship57:32and then they had to say tech ethicist57:33they’re like my god is this guy just57:35giving me tongue twisters57:37and then they had to say your name it’s57:38like how many syllables are you going to57:40throw into this oh57:41well i’m saying thank you for saying57:43like the whole name i just didn’t want a57:44google ganger because there’s another57:45david polgar out there who does some57:47some acting57:48so i was like you know what i’m going to57:49do david ryan polgar but i’ve learned57:50over the years that57:52social media is not made for the middle57:54name like there’s like nowhere57:56on like uh let’s say linkedin to even57:58but your middle name and57:59people get very confused there’s i58:01actually have thought of doing58:02a podcast that’s just me interviewing58:04all the other kate o’neill’s out there58:06because58:07that’s really screw with google but i i58:09love the fact that there’s uh kate58:11o’neil who’s a58:12professor affiliated with berkeley and58:14she wrote a book last year called waste58:16so she’s a climate expert58:18and because i’ve done some work around58:20tech and climate we58:22get confused all the time sorry58:25and then there’s kathy o’neil who wrote58:28mass destruction58:29so you know we get confused all the time58:31so i think it would just be really fun58:32to do a show58:33that is only me interviewing all the58:36other similar names out there58:38it just creates more confusion i love it58:40i love it58:41and so as far as confusion with you and58:43not not confusing you58:45people can find you at david ryan polgar58:48on linkedin58:48at tech ethicist on twitter uh also your58:52tech ethicist.com right i am i am okay58:55so58:55i try to make it a little easier to find58:57me that way and hey i had to block out58:59the other david blogger so i own59:01davidryanpolgar.com technicist.com and59:04uh you know whatever dave ryanpolar.com59:06so it’s like59:07that’s modern modern life man you know59:10it’s all about the url59:11excellent yeah of course it is i i i59:13think i buy about59:14two urls a week so59:18i’m the same way like like an idea pops59:20in you’re like59:21this could be brilliant or this could be59:22a terrible idea yeah i don’t know59:24we’re 20 bucks you know so yeah geek if59:27you’re registering59:28two domains a week i told you this we59:30said this was going to go on for seven59:32hours59:32now our audience is like okay you59:33weren’t kidding yeah yeah59:36i just want to thank you so much for i59:38know you know59:39folks don’t know but we’ve known each59:41other for years we’ve59:43worked with each other’s programs and59:44we’ve been on each other’s shows and i59:46just i’m so grateful59:47for your friendship and for the work59:49that you do so thank you so much for59:50being on the show59:51david kate you know you’re kate59:53o’neill’s always bringing the ko always59:55doing a knockout job59:56uh and there’s only one kate o’neil in59:59my book so uh thank you for60:00doing such a great job with the tech60:02humanist show and these are important60:03conversations that people need to have60:05absolutely thanks so much i appreciate60:07you being here to help have them60:09well thank you60:17you