[Music]00:43all right00:56welcome to the tech humanist show00:59a multimedia format program01:02exploring how data and technology shape01:04the human experience01:06i’m your host kate o’neill please01:09subscribe or follow wherever you’re01:10watching or listening to this so that01:11you won’t miss any new episodes because01:13we have a lot of great guests coming up01:15and today’s guest is no exception today01:18we are talking with01:19kelly schroeder an attorney in privacy01:22and data security01:23she’s a privacy advocate and01:25self-described die-hard nerd01:27i think we many of us can relate to that01:30i love this part her brief stint as a01:32wedding singer led her to wonder01:35if she had violated copyright law an01:37interest01:38interest which transitions into tech log01:41broadly and privacy law specifically01:43while in law school straighter interned01:45for ftc commissioner julie brill01:47published an article on consent issues01:49and irbs in the colorado01:51technology law journal among other01:54accomplishments and distinctions01:55she developed a focus on consumer01:57protection issues surveillance01:59data breaches and freaking people out at02:01parties02:03among the certifications she holds are02:04privacy designations for the u.s02:06europe and canada she’s originally from02:08whitefish montana02:10and cali holds an undergraduate degree02:12in peace studies from whitworth02:13university02:15outside of work she enjoys traveling02:17music and extensive debates02:18about comic books i’ve been so looking02:21forward to this so02:22please help me welcome i think maybe02:25that might have fixed it02:26uh someone please oh here we go uh02:29michael rockwell kate o’neil we lost02:30your audio we can hear02:31cali but not you thank you i am having02:34such a02:35a tough time with the audio for this02:37show i don’t know why02:38i definitely need to look into that but02:41let me02:42let me uh just go through and make sure02:45that02:45everybody knows that we’re talking to02:47cali straighter and she’s a an attorney02:49who focuses in data and privacy issues02:52all right michael rockwell confirms i’m02:55back now thank you michael02:58so um back to talking about the03:02copyright law around uh the wedding03:06singing03:06but that you know so so that leads you03:08into into um03:10tech law broadly so it’s like you’re03:12interested in the copyright application03:14but how does that then translate into03:16becoming interested03:17in in tech law and privacy03:20uh it was it was an interesting shift i03:23started taking copyright and ip classes03:25in law school just03:26because i thought that was interesting03:27given my background03:29and part of what got me into tech more03:31broadly and into privacy specifically03:33was03:34i really loved the professor i had for03:36copyright law so i just started taking03:38more and more of his classes03:39um his name is paul ohm he now heads up03:42teklon03:43policy division over at georgetown shout03:45out to paul03:46um all right he’s great um but he03:50because he’s got a programming03:51background he taught some really03:52fascinating classes so he had a jan term03:54class on uh03:55technology law and coding for lawyers uh03:58privacy for lawyers uh04:00he taught a computer crimes class and oh04:03that sounds really04:03fascinating oh it was so cool i loved04:06that class04:07um i read a lot about snowden for a04:10stretch04:11uh and and through that i broadly got04:13more and more interested in privacy more04:15and more interested in surveillance tech04:17uh i joined and later worked for the04:20colorado04:20technology law journal and that led to04:23me04:24getting more and more into these these04:27tech issues04:28so it it kind of came about by accident04:30i’ve never been a particularly techy04:32person04:33i’m a privacy and tech lawyer who will04:36openly admit because i i know it’s a04:38huge mistake to pretend you know more04:40than you do04:40i i don’t know how to code i’m trying to04:43teach myself and i’m very slow because04:45i’m not good about setting aside04:47practice time04:49but i i just find the area so04:52fascinating04:53and and now i’m i’m deep in the weeds of04:56it04:56yeah increasingly so right like so04:58you’re you have certifications05:00uh in privacy as a intern and what does05:04the cipp stand for05:05remind us uh it’s the certified05:08information professional05:10okay and leave and you have that05:13professional05:14information privacy professional uh say05:16that a few times fast i guess05:18so you have that designation applying to05:21is it canada05:22the us and europe are those those three05:25canada u.s europe and now i have the05:27cipm which is05:29the the privacy management and the the05:31fip which is the fellow of information05:33privacy i05:35full disclosure part of why i have so05:36many certifications is because05:38i worked for the iapp after law school05:40and while i was working there i could05:42take the tests for05:43for free when they offered them so05:45that’s great that’s that’s part of why i05:47just took a test05:48every single time they offered the05:50chance to the smart i i remember i05:52used to work at a language school and05:54one of the perks we had was that we got05:55to take free language tests05:57i just kind of i just kept racking up05:59all kinds of language06:00classes that’s amazing certification so06:03uh06:03you know but but as you as you’ve gotten06:06deeper into that and you have all these06:07certifications and you are working in06:08the space06:09it’s become a more interesting space i06:11mean every year it seems like it becomes06:13a more interesting space06:15so you’ve got you know gdpr hitting the06:18scene and what was it 201806:20right yep yeah my my big projects when i06:23was at the iapp06:24the the gdpr had been passed and was06:27going to go into effect shortly and so06:29we were doing a lot of06:30redrafting the the eu documentation and06:34trying to put out guidance and really06:36interpret06:37how that was going to be applied so i06:38was doing all of the prep work at the06:40iapp06:41and then jumped to a firm afterwards06:42where i was doing more of the practical06:44client guidance on how to be compliant06:47before the effective date hit06:48okay okay i was going to ask you to sort06:50of walk us through what that kind of06:52what that type of work looked like but06:53i think so many of us received emails06:56notifying us that it was coming that we06:57probably06:58have a sense of what that looked like07:01what was that07:02like boots on the ground was that what07:03that was there’s a lot of guidance and07:05handholding about like who you’re gonna07:06have to notify and by when and stuff07:08like that or was it07:09uh it was it was a lot a lot of working07:12directly with clients that way and a lot07:14of it was really building out an07:15internal privacy program for clients07:17that07:18for a lot of us based clients it’s not07:20that they were purposely negligent when07:22it came to data protection or data07:23mapping practices07:24they just had never had any real07:29regulatory motivation to pay attention07:31to that and so it always fell by the07:33wayside when it came to allocating07:34resources so07:36we were building a lot of programs from07:38the bottom up we were07:39doing data mapping for the first time in07:41companies you know they were figuring07:42out exactly where all the information07:44that they07:45collected went and what they collected07:47and why they used it07:48and what legal bases we could use to07:51justify that or whether they needed to07:52start deleting stuff07:53and um it was it was interesting you get07:57a really good07:58idea of kind of the inner workings of07:59companies and08:01uh start to develop a lot of strategies08:03for08:04figuring out what questions to ask and08:06when you need to08:08push a little deeper on on things08:11nobody likes to admit that they may not08:13know exactly where everything goes08:15within their company but08:16particularly for large companies or08:18companies that collect a lot of data08:19it’s extremely common08:21so yeah i would imagine and so and then08:24of course we have08:25the california privacy act that comes08:28online that came online what january08:29this year08:31is that right so was it again sort of a08:34repeat of08:35gdpr that was interesting we had a08:37really big split with the ccpa08:40for gdpr i feel like uh it kind of put08:43the fear of god in a lot of u.s08:44companies so08:46everyone was scrambling for compliance08:47we had a huge influx of people asking to08:49help08:50uh help them with compliance before the08:52due date hit08:53with ccpa i saw a real divergence in08:56approach there were there were a lot of08:58companies that were very responsible and09:00um came to us wanting us to help them be09:03compliant with the ccpa09:05right as the enforcement date hit so09:06they were ready to go09:08um and then not necessarily my clients09:11but i09:11i did see in quite a lot of instances09:13there seemed to be09:15uh more companies that were willing to09:17gamble when it came to compliance that09:18way09:20i don’t know if that’s because they they09:23thought the attorney general wouldn’t be09:24able to enforce09:25and mass or whether they thought that09:28you know their their privacy practices09:29were maybe not fully compliant but09:31probably good enough to skate by for a09:33while and kind of wanted to get the lay09:34of the land before figuring out09:36resources but09:37uh it was surprising seeing that split09:39from the gdpr09:40and now with the cpra on the ballot09:42it’ll be even more interesting because09:44if that passes it09:46it will definitely raise the amount of09:48enforcement actions09:50yeah and so do you feel like d did you09:52observe anecdotally09:53that it changed the discourse at all09:56when09:56uh the gdpr um suits started happening10:00and10:00that the enforcement was happening and10:03and google and other companies were10:05actually receiving10:06fines was that changing the way10:08companies were taking it seriously10:10from what i’ve seen yes and and in10:12particular one of the things i noticed10:13is that10:14clients even of smaller mid-level10:16companies that maybe hadn’t paid much10:18attention to privacy or data security10:19before10:20uh were paying attention to these10:22lawsuits they were coming to10:24us saying hey i just read about this10:26should i be worried do i need to change10:27things10:28what should i be looking at i mean for10:30example we just had the shrems 2 case10:31happen10:32i had a bunch of clients reach out to me10:34proactively before we had issued our10:36statement on it10:37saying this seems like it changes things10:40what do we need to do10:41how should we take care of this and10:43frankly it was pretty refreshing to see10:45that so many of our clients were now10:47actively paying attention to this on10:48their own as an issue10:50yeah that makes sense and so i guess you10:53know and one thing i’m really curious10:54about10:55to talk about with you and and i i want10:56to um10:58i want to spill that you uh told me via11:01email as we were prepping for the show11:02you said11:03that you have minors in both philosophy11:05and theology11:06in your undergrad and so you11:08occasionally get a little into privacy11:09affecting the nature of society and11:11humanity11:11and you said but i will try to reel it11:13in and i’m like no don’t reel that in11:15that’s exactly what we want to bring to11:17the show so i guess11:19you know one question i have for you on11:20that in in that more esoteric11:23you know kind of uh philosophical bent11:25is11:26do you think that the way we conceive of11:28privacy11:29has changed or is changing or is due to11:32change11:33uh is like where do you think the11:36uh you know what externalities do you11:38think kind of come into the way that11:40that11:40humans conceive of privacy and what it11:43what is going to11:44happen over the next few years over the11:46next11:47few milestones what do you what do you11:49see those as being11:51yeah not a small question i understand11:53not a small question11:54but an important one um to preface11:56there’s11:57i i’m a little split in my uh12:00professional and personal approaches to12:01privacy so12:02obviously personally i’m i’m very very12:05privacy protective and i’m12:06very loud about that online uh and12:09personally i12:10i believe myself to maintain those12:14those uh values but i i need to channel12:17them in practical ways that clients can12:19actually use like there’s12:20there’s the idealistic form of privacy12:23that i think i have in my personal life12:25and then there’s also the practical form12:27of well okay but this company is not12:29going to just stop collecting data12:31right right and so how can i how can i12:33guide them in a way that makes them do12:35it as responsibly as possibly and as12:36ethically and transparently as possible12:39while meeting regulatory requirements so12:41this i’m gonna go full into my12:43personal answer on privacy perspectives12:46but12:47uh so i do believe that our our um12:51approach toward privacy12:53has been fundamentally changing i12:55believe that for many years it’s been12:56changing12:57in the direction where people haven’t13:00been paying attention to it and have13:02lost a good13:03amount of uh the kind of privacy that we13:06we were used to and part of that comes13:08from the development of technology you13:10know we have13:11um so much more prevalent technology13:13that’s really permeated every area of13:14life you have13:15you know in i there there’s smart13:17fridges on the market right it’s really13:19hard for me to find13:20non-connected kitchen devices when i was13:23redoing yeah we just bought an13:24air conditioner an in-window air13:26conditioner for our apartment and it was13:28so hard to pick one that didn’t have you13:30know smart features built in13:32like i don’t want that i don’t want a13:33smart air conditioner yeah i had to get13:36a new television13:37oh my gosh it was such a nightmare13:38trying to find one that wasn’t a smart13:40tv it wasn’t connected somehow and13:42it’s it’s so hard good luck next time13:44you have to buy a toilet13:45i mean oh i know it’s ridiculous all13:47over the place13:49but yeah because of all of those changes13:50and because it’s so interwoven with just13:53the aspects of our daily life i i feel13:55like there’s been this gradual shift in13:58that where before13:59you you got to be a lot more deliberate14:01about what14:02aspects of who you are and what pieces14:04of information about you you shared with14:06different people in different settings14:09now it’s just ingrained and so the the14:11choice is gone in a lot of ways but14:13i’ll also say that i’ve seen a much more14:15positive trend in privacy in that14:17there’s been a lot more pushback in in14:20at least recent years14:22so some of it’s regulatory the gdpr is a14:24great14:25great prompt for considering privacy14:27concerns14:28um the u.s is very sectoral in its14:30privacy approach but there’s been14:32individual state laws that are14:34incredible like the the illinois14:36biometric information privacy act is14:39is great and having some really cool14:40enforcement ccpa14:42is prompting some really great14:44conversations around14:45what information we protect and how we14:47protect it and what level of control we14:49have14:49and whether that should be left to14:50people on a societal level14:54the interesting thing for me is seeing14:55younger generations and what their14:57approach is to privacy into being14:58watched14:59yeah and you know i’m i’m millennial so15:03i grew up in a little bit of the cusp15:04you know when i was15:05very young we had a computer in my house15:08when i was15:09probably 10 or 11. but they were so old15:13and you didn’t use them all that often15:15for a long stretch you used them for you15:17know word documents15:18but you didn’t necessarily use them for15:20internet all that often15:21and we really didn’t have smartphones in15:23the way that we do now and15:25and living through all those changes and15:27seeing15:28how gradually that happens and how15:30suddenly every aspect of your life15:32is watched uh is really interesting to15:35me15:36particularly seeing this net this15:37current generation that15:39is growing up with all of that just15:40already existing already in place you15:42know15:43um but but one thing that i find so15:46interesting is the ways that they find15:48to push back against that15:49there’s there’s a lot of really creative15:52uh loopholes and workarounds and kind of15:55hacks of tech15:56that younger generations are using so15:59even though they’ve16:00been put into this world where they’re16:01always watched they’re16:03actively fighting for privacy and for16:06space to kind of figure out who they are16:07without eyes on them all the time16:10yeah i just think that’s really valuable16:11it’s such an interesting dichotomy16:13because16:14it is a more connected generation uh in16:16many ways16:17and i think they they are inherently16:20that the the younger you skew i know16:22that there are some differences16:23generationally where16:24uh some actually prefer less online time16:27uh but but i think in general like i’m16:29gen x so the the younger you skew in16:31general away from16:32my generation and above you know you see16:35a lot more16:36native sort of familiarity with being16:38online but yes you’re right and then16:40those attitudes also change like there’s16:41there16:42isn’t an inherent acceptance of16:45the trade-off of that i’m i’m gonna give16:47up so much of my self and you know what16:51quantifies who i am16:52so that you can then sell to me more16:55effectively yep16:58well it’s interesting i i agree with i17:00think i i’m17:01probably very aligned with your your17:03distinction on the personal and17:04professional level17:06on the professional level is a really17:08interesting one though because i think17:10you do have to have this kind of17:11pragmatic it’s not it’s not defeatism i17:14don’t think but it’s a pragmatic view17:16that you know that17:17companies are going to collect data and17:19they are going to use it17:21in aggregate and in segments to be able17:24to you know better understand17:26targeting offers or better understand17:30even just to improve user experiences17:32you know inherent to17:33to the uh to the pages and sites that17:36they serve up17:37so so how do you now how do you take17:39over from the the personal17:41approach and carry it over into the17:42professional like where do you17:44where do you go with that well one thing17:47is that i i’m really grateful that my17:51super privacy protective perspective17:53from my personal life17:54can carry over in a ethical and17:56responsible way where i’m still advising17:58my clients well when i’m telling18:00them to you know practice data18:02minimization18:03and you know make sure that they’re only18:05collecting the information they need and18:07that they’re18:07putting in really good security18:09protocols and that they’re very clear18:10and transparent about what they’re doing18:12and honest with their users18:14um i i like to push really hard for18:17people18:18for the companies to understand what’s18:20going on with their data because a lot18:21of companies18:22use vendors that are just common you18:24know you use google analytics or18:26you you use uh different storage vendors18:30and18:31share information with you know people18:34that are18:35using behavioral advertising algorithms18:37and things like that and so18:38being able to advise them and have18:40discussions with them where i’m saying18:42i really think you should evaluate what18:44this18:45costs you an effort in disclosing all of18:48this and making sure you’re doing it18:49correctly versus what you’re getting18:50from it i’ve had some really interesting18:52discussions with clients about the value18:54of behavioral advertising and18:56that i don’t think there’s much value in18:58it and not to mention19:00protecting it against breaches and leaks19:02so you know the risk19:03yeah the more information you have the19:05more risk you have of a breach and the19:07more liability you have you know if19:09if you have a data breach and all you’ve19:10collected about your clients is19:12uh name and mailing address for the19:14services that’s hugely different than if19:16you’ve also collected their19:18you know race and gender and income and19:21financial account information and uh19:24sexual orientation19:25and people collect so much nowadays just19:28because they can19:29because the technology is capable of19:31that and until you push back a little19:33bit and challenge them and say okay but19:35why that why do you need that why do you19:37want that and19:38really highlight for them that they’re19:40raising their own risk19:42it’s that that’s something that helps me19:45kind of justify to myself the work i do19:47because i i can see19:49and i know that there are some privacy19:52really really purists that would argue19:54that19:54me working with clients that collect19:56data is unethical and19:58while i can understand the motivation20:00behind that argument i20:02i find a lot more value in engaging20:05and making the world more privacy20:07protective by talking to companies that20:09are engaged with it20:10and trying to make them do it in a20:12responsible way than i do in just20:14pulling myself out entirely and not20:15engaging yeah and beyond that20:18like i can advise my clients and i do20:20advise my clients and i want to do20:21do right by them and do right by the20:23people whose information they’re20:24collecting20:25but you also can do other things i mean20:27i i also20:29read a bunch of policy proposals and20:31send in20:32um formal comments on privacy laws that20:35are20:36being proposed or uh different20:38approaches to cases or you know we20:40we discuss this all the time20:44with with the different privacy20:46community you know the the privacy20:48to be very active in debates and20:50discussions about20:51regulations and cases and proposals and20:54and you can still be engaged in all of20:56that and push for kind of regulatory and20:58social change while also doing the21:01practical work of telling a client in21:03this circumstance that you’re doing21:05right now21:06here’s how we make this safer yeah and i21:08think you know21:09in my own consulting my own work i find21:11that that conversation21:13about uh the increasing risk when you’re21:15talking about more and more data21:17is a really useful one to have at the21:19sort of c-suite level21:21but also it seems like even just at a21:23strategy level21:24saying that you know you shouldn’t21:25collect data if you can’t21:27think of an aligned reason why you would21:30want to have it right like an21:31aligned between what benefits you and21:33what benefits the customer or the person21:34outside the company21:36like if it’s only benefiting you and21:38it’s not going to benefit21:39them in any way ever then there’s21:42probably really good reason21:44not to even bother collecting it21:45completely agree21:47and also the whole mentality we’re21:48collected just so you have it just in21:50case that’s21:52such an irresponsible perspective both21:54both21:55from a general privacy perspective and21:57for them why would you want21:59piles more information than you’re even22:00using it just increases your risk22:03right right we have a question from one22:05of our followers here one of the22:07audience members david ryan polgar who i22:09love22:10so should social media platforms offer22:11data portability to move valuable data22:14across different platforms what do you22:15think about that22:18i i think more and more as social media22:20has22:21changed in in what it does in different22:23contexts i22:24i think absolutely um i do think22:28partly let me clarify that partly22:29because people use different social22:32media as22:32as tools both professionally and22:34creatively now as well as to connect22:36with other people and for networking and22:38for22:39other services so you know artists and22:41photographers constantly share their22:43artwork through social media22:44and uh writers um practice their craft22:48through social media and22:49people that are in professional spheres22:51like i constantly22:52i mean i’m not necessarily recommending22:54this because i’m sure they get annoying22:56sometimes but i constantly write long22:57twitter threads kind of22:59analyzing privacy issues or legal issues23:01that i see because i want people to23:02engage with it more23:03so i absolutely see the value in data23:06portability and in making sure that you23:08can23:08preserve those things should you leave a23:10platform for whatever reason23:12um i don’t know how useful it always is23:15i think it’s23:16it’s very useful in that you get a copy23:17of everything that you’ve put23:19there i don’t know how portable it is23:21because i don’t know23:22like if i if i took all of my23:24information from twitter23:25tomorrow i don’t know that i could23:27actually transfer that to another social23:29media23:30i don’t think they’re compatible in a23:32lot of ways so i think they’re23:34they’re absolutely uses to data23:35portability i think there’s absolutely23:37value to it and i think there’s value to23:39forcing the company to go through the23:40exercise of saying23:41we know where all of your information is23:43and we we’ve23:44organized this internally sure and23:48you know just to make sure that23:49internally they’re practicing good23:52data structuring and are able to track23:54all of that but23:56yeah i i don’t know about actually23:58transferring it to other platforms23:59that’s kind of an interesting question24:01right it is an interesting thing i’m24:02going to keep thinking about that24:04i also wondering what you think about24:06the uh24:07own your own data sort of movement you24:10know where24:10do you stand on that concept of you know24:13the notion that eventually24:14at some point we may be able to move to24:16a model where people24:18are in uh control of their own data and24:20they can be paid for it and that sort of24:22thing24:22where you are on that so i understand24:25the appeal of it24:26i i absolutely understand that it’s it24:29can be a kind of24:31easier way to wrap your mind around how24:32data works to think of it as a piece of24:34property that you own24:36um i absolutely get the appeal of it i24:38think that there’s some very thoughtful24:40people that support that view i don’t24:44but the reasons that i don’t are first24:47of all24:47i think that puts way too much24:49responsibility on the individual24:51we don’t even know how much information24:54gets collected and by whom half the time24:55so having to24:57uh track that or parcel out25:00portions of your data for different uses25:03i think just puts too much of25:04both a25:07it puts too much of a time25:09responsibility on people certainly25:10i mean that’s a hugely time consuming25:12process but it also25:14puts a lot of research responsibility on25:16people like i work in privacy so i do a25:18lot of research into25:21the trade-offs of sharing information25:23just for my work25:24which is great but other people have25:26full-time jobs in other areas and are25:28taking care of small children or dealing25:29with family members and25:31have lives to live they don’t25:32necessarily have time to sit down and do25:34all of that25:35the other issue i have is it sets up25:39an inequality when it comes to being25:41paid for your information you know who’s25:43going to have the most incentive to25:44share their information25:45even if they wouldn’t normally if25:48they’re getting paid it’s it’s going to25:49be people with lower incomes25:51and so that sets up a system where the25:53wealthy can kind of25:54afford to keep their information private25:57and25:57the less wealthy have a lot more26:00incentive to26:00say i i don’t love this but i need to26:03pay rent26:04so here pay me for this i’ll i guess26:07um so i don’t like that split either and26:10then the the other26:11concern i have with it is i don’t know26:13how much bargaining power you would have26:15with big companies even if you’re the26:17owner of your information26:19big companies are still big companies26:21and they have a lot of power26:22and depending on what they’re offering26:25you may not actually get that much for26:28your information you may not get a ton26:29of money or value for it26:31because you know if you don’t want to26:32sell it there’s26:34a hundred thousand other people that are26:36willing to and they’ll do it at x26:38price so i i just think there are a lot26:41of complications with that approach that26:43don’t necessarily benefit people in the26:45way it’s intended to benefit people26:46yeah no that’s a wonderful thorough well26:50thought out answer and i think26:51another aspect of the point the last26:53point you were just making26:54is that i i’ve seen the numbers26:56somewhere that suggests that26:58individually your facebook data for27:00example would be worth like 20 cents or27:0140 cents or something like27:03that right compared to you know in the27:05aggregate27:06what facebook is going to get in in27:09terms of27:09monetizing it through the advertising27:11platform yeah27:13and being able to offer the the hyper27:14targeting that it does27:16so yeah so i mean there’s absolutely27:18very little incentive to educate27:20yourself and spend the time27:21and and become a merchant of your own27:24data when it means pennies27:28as opposed to frankly just on a personal27:30level i don’t like working in sales so i27:32don’t want to do it27:33my free time absolutely27:36well that’s it’s interesting and by the27:38way david who asked us the question27:40about the uh27:41portability says great answer and loving27:43the show27:45and also another point here from kyle27:47johnson is also the27:48connections you have on a social network27:50aren’t portable to another27:52so you know and and i can even say you27:54know for me27:56the the sort of model that i use mental27:59model that i use for who i connect with28:01on twitter versus facebook versus28:03linkedin28:04very very different you know kind of28:06constantly28:07i’m sure that’s true for most people and28:08so certainly it would seem very28:11meaningless unless you were moving from28:13a twitter-like28:15platform to another twitter-like28:17platform uh28:18you know that you might be able to28:19maintain some of the integrity of those28:21connections but28:22most likely not so that’s a good point28:25well what about you know how do you how28:27do you think about the emerging concerns28:30around privacy i mean certainly we have28:31a lot more surveillance technology28:33coming28:34into uh into being we have um you know28:36facial recognition is28:37an enormous topic within the space where28:40do you28:41sort of find yourself most concerned28:43about privacy issues in emerging tech28:46i mean you’ve you’ve mentioned facial28:48recognition i am hugely concerned with28:50facial recognition partly because it28:52feels28:53i i really hope it doesn’t prove to be28:55but it feels very much like one of those28:56technologies where28:58you know once it’s out it’s you can’t29:00put it back in29:02the this is this doesn’t exist don’t use29:04this category29:06um i feel i i hope that we’re still29:09early enough29:10in the use of facial recognition that29:12there could be steps to29:14restrict it and to put more responsible29:16use cases around it i29:18frankly just really don’t like it as a29:19technology partly because of29:22you know there’s been tons of much more29:24informed people than than29:26me talking about um the the issues when29:28it comes to identifying29:30uh darker skin tones or uh accuracy with29:33non-binary or trans individuals29:35um which is a huge issue because you29:38know in29:38a lot of places including the us there’s29:41there’s higher likelihood that those29:43communities get targeted under these29:44systems anyway and if those all29:46those same communities that are being29:48targeted also have a really high29:50instance of inaccuracy29:51in identification it just it really29:53facilitates29:54the opportunity for abuse of those29:56systems um29:58so i hate that and even beyond that even30:00if facial recognition worked30:02perfectly and identified people30:03correctly every time i still wouldn’t30:05think we should use it because30:07it really does change something about30:09the nature of being tracked everywhere30:10you go it changes something about30:13your freedom to move around a public30:14space and30:16um to restrict your your information and30:19your whereabouts and30:21that sort of thing and and the the30:23counterpoint i hear that all the time is30:25well why would that bother you if you’re30:26not doing anything bad but the30:28i don’t have anything to hide argument30:29has never held water i mean30:31this is gross in case there are people30:34watching or listening30:35who don’t know why that argument doesn’t30:36hold water would you take a moment to30:38say why you think that i mean i30:40certainly feel like it doesn’t hold30:42water but i’d love to hear you30:43uh give if you have a concise30:45explanation as to why30:47the notion if you have nothing to hide30:49that there’s no reason30:50for privacy why is that wrong30:53oh it’s wrong for so many reasons but so30:55the best example i’ve heard is a little30:57gross and i’m so sorry but uh30:59basically there’s a big difference31:01between privacy and secrecy secrecy is31:04is more about concealing something you31:06just don’t want anyone to know about31:08because31:08because it’s you know nefarious or uh31:11perceived badly or whatever31:13privacy just means that you want to31:15conceal it because31:16you don’t feel like sharing it so for31:19example if someone’s31:20if i’m hanging out at my friend’s house31:22and i leave i get up to go to the31:24bathroom there i close the door31:26and i close the like people know what31:28i’m doing in there31:29it’s not secret what’s probably going on31:32in the bathroom but i close the door31:34because i want privacy that’s31:36gross but but beyond that there’s31:39privacy issues when it comes to you know31:40sometimes you may be31:42just wanting to feel out something um31:44and not like like31:46kids trying to figure out what their31:47political views are sometimes you want31:49to be able to explore that or their31:50sexual orientation you want to be able31:52to explore that31:53in a safe and secure way without having31:55to come out with a hard stance or making31:56a decision31:57or or having people observing you32:00because there’s also been32:01multiple studies that just the act of32:03being observed and knowing you’re being32:04observed changes behavior and changes32:06thinking and doesn’t allow people to32:07freely32:09express themselves or explore ideas and32:11and it’s a really stifling32:13situation so a good portion of why i32:17oppose that is the the stifling aspect32:20of it32:20but yeah when it comes down to the i’ve32:22got nothing to hide argument32:24that also changes hugely based on32:26context i mean32:27communities like refugees are surveilled32:30hugely after 9 11 muslim communities32:32were surveilled32:33on an incredible scale and communities32:36of color32:37and people with different sexual32:39orientations or gender presentations are32:41often surveilled much more32:43and they may well want more privacy and32:46it’s not because they’re doing anything32:47wrong it’s because32:49there are elements of the society around32:51them that will punish them for the not32:52wrong things that they’re doing and that32:54they’re observed doing32:55and so the the social context around32:58that is also hugely important33:00just because you don’t think what you’re33:01doing is wrong doesn’t mean that the33:03society around you won’t react badly to33:05it and you should be able to33:07exercise your rights that way without33:09constant surveillance so33:12i think that’s a wonderful answer yeah i33:14mean33:15it seems like you you know you almost33:17could just say well it shows a33:19tremendous amount of privilege to be33:20able to make the statement yeah33:22you have nothing to hide but you gave33:23really crisp and clear examples33:25of that so i think that’s very helpful33:28so but when especially when you were33:29talking about facial recognition and33:31other biometric technology i think33:33what what uh the big concern there is33:35you know those are things you just can’t33:36change33:37so it’s another it’s one thing to be33:39able to change your email get a new33:41face right like like if that gets33:43compromised somehow it’s going to cost33:45me a lot of surgery to get a new face33:46and i like this one33:47so i don’t want to and like i can’t33:50change my dna i can’t change my33:51fingerprints these are33:53these are so immutable if it comes to33:56like an account being breached i can33:57change my password and i can change my33:59my username if i need to but these34:02things are so much more immutable and34:04they’re so much more set and they’re so34:05much more34:06tied to our actual identities and who we34:08consider ourselves to be34:09that i think the level of sensitivity34:12around them is just so much higher and34:13so the level of care should be equally34:15as high and one of the big problems with34:17facial recognition is that the34:18technology34:19has developed so quickly that there34:21really aren’t any regulations in place34:24around34:24it so they’ve been able to come up in34:26this vacuum of34:28of accountability essentially34:32and i’m not saying that there’s never34:34ever a circumstance where facial34:35recognition could be useful or could be34:37used for good purposes34:39i i don’t know enough to say that yeah34:41definitively34:42but for sure we’re not in an environment34:44where there’s checks on that yet and34:46that’s what34:47really scares me there’s always at least34:49one example that that someone’s willing34:51to come up with you know and and i34:52yeah when i had the um super viral tweet34:55around the34:5610-year challenge last year and was34:57making the rounds of the news programs i34:59was using the example of the35:00um the case study of facial recognition35:03having been used in35:05uh in india to track down missing kids35:07but of course we know like there were35:09there was a very limited uh experiment35:12uh we don’t really know how successful35:14it truly was35:16you know how successful it was with35:17facial recognition and would not have35:19been otherwise35:20like there’s no kind of control variable35:22and and the harms greatly exceed35:25the benefits in this and i don’t think i35:27i don’t think that’s35:28even a controversial statement so yeah35:32i it is interesting to see that you know35:34some cities have had some luck with35:36banning facial recognition uh and as you35:38mentioned the illinois35:39uh biometric uh regulation so do you35:43foresee a lot more sort of city by city35:45state by state kind of things coming35:47into play that way within the us35:50i do i know that there’s there’s a big35:52debate raging about whether there’s35:53going to be a federal privacy law in the35:55next year or two years or whatever35:57um i don’t know what’s going to happen36:01there frankly i36:02don’t know that the federal government’s36:03going to get itself together enough to36:05pass anything substantial but36:07regardless we had a few things on our36:09hands right now right36:10yeah there’s some other stuff going on36:12um regardless we’ve had a sectoral36:14system for a long time when it comes to36:16privacy and so36:17i i’ve been really encouraged by the36:19actions i’ve seen statewide36:21and the attention i’ve seen statewide to36:22these issues i would love for more36:24states to adopt something like36:26like bipa and uh start enforcing against36:29biometric36:31privacy violations um i i like what’s36:34happening with ccpa in general because36:36it moves the conversation forward and it36:38moves uh36:40thought about what rights people have to36:42their information and36:43what companies are required to do if36:45they want to use that information36:46um i think that there will probably be36:50more sectoral and statewide regulations36:53when it comes to facial recognition you36:54know seattle’s got that in place i know36:56colorado’s36:57been looking into that um but i i wish37:00it would move a little quicker37:03what makes you optimistic about what you37:06see happening around data privacy law is37:07there anything37:08that that you kind of look at and think37:10that’s what needs to happen and i’m glad37:12to see it happen37:13and maybe you want to encourage it to go37:15faster but where are you most optimistic37:17around it37:19you know one thing that’s made me really37:21optimistic is just the level of37:22engagement by people that don’t work in37:25this space37:26um i think that’s surprising to a lot of37:28people because this seems37:30i feel like privacy can seem like an37:32intimidating space because37:34it can seem very techy and it can seem37:36very37:37you know i don’t know how to code or i37:39don’t know how to program so i probably37:41won’t understand this or37:42you know it can be very easy to fall37:46into kind of a37:48nihilist approach to privacy and say37:49well i can’t control everything so why37:51bother but i’ve seen a lot of engagement37:54with people37:54when it comes to privacy rights and when37:56it comes to hey what should i be asking37:58for and what should i be fighting for37:59and what should i be looking for38:01and that has been really encouraging38:03just on kind of a38:05ground level people seem to care more38:07about this38:08when it comes to regulatory actions you38:10know i i do love that there’s been38:12multiple proposals for38:14a federal privacy law in the u.s i don’t38:16necessarily love all the drafts but i38:18love that there’s that38:19discussion happening and there’s some38:21some action there there’s a little38:22momentum38:23um i think the gdpr was a great step and38:26i i38:27am happy that it’s had the kind of38:28impact it’s had even if it was38:30inconvenient for people38:32at the jump because it does prompt just38:35much more care and much more thought in38:37what people are doing with38:38personal information um all of those38:42i’ve found really encouraging and38:46think the privacy space can feel kind of38:48like38:49a very david and goliath struggle where38:51it’s big companies and big government38:53surveillance structures that are38:55constantly pushing against privacy and38:57you know we’re just these38:59attorneys or individual programmers or39:01individual people that39:03are are bothered by the structure or the39:05system but39:07the fact that we’ve seen these39:08regulations passed and the fact that39:09there’s been39:11outcry against things like mass facial39:13recognition use or39:15or mass surveillance or companies39:19taking as much data as they’re taking i39:21i think that’s a good sign39:23and that’s really encouraging for me39:24personally39:26that’s great and i think you know it39:28seems like i can relate to the idea that39:30people39:31uh seem to struggle with finding privacy39:34a topic that they can get into because39:36it seems at once abstract and arcane39:39and like you have to know a lot of39:41really specific things39:42but you have to care about these very39:45philosophical39:46ideas at the same time and it’s a it’s a39:48tough thing it’s a tough thing to39:50reconcile so it’s39:51i think it’s a wonderful thing that39:52folks like you are39:54focused on that and speaking of folks39:56like you39:57my uh one of my besties tara aaron40:00stelluto40:01has commented and said not sure if this40:03is the right place to ask a question but40:05i’d love to hear40:06what cali has to say about the big eu40:08court of justice opinion last week40:10and what she’s advising clients about40:12how to go forward40:13so it seems like that sort of fits in40:15with both the conversations we were40:17having about you know40:18the professional approach in terms of40:19guiding companies and what you recommend40:21they do but also thinking about40:23regulations and such so40:24what do you have to say uh to tara’s40:26question40:28oh so much has gone on since since40:31the return of shrems i referred to it as40:33the restraining in a professional talk40:35and i feel like that40:36probably shouldn’t stick but uh40:40uh beyond just a lot of urgent client40:42response to different things40:44uh we’ve we’ve had some practical40:46guidance that we’ve issued40:48i personally have been rereading fisa40:50and uh40:51the the eo one two triple three and40:54different40:55surveillance acts and all of that uh40:58practically speaking you know i41:01we’ve been redoing privacy policies that41:03list privacy shield is the sole data41:05transfer method41:06and um we’ve been putting41:09sccs in place we’re making sure that41:11they are in place and they’re41:12enforceable41:13uh and then we’ve been doing some41:14additional work i i advise clients to41:18put some documentation in place where41:20they can really track you know this is41:21the analysis we’ve done41:22of the risks to the data subjects we41:25collect information on and this is what41:27we41:28what we think when it comes to our41:30whether we’re included under fisa scope41:32and what the likelihood is that41:34our information is tracked and these are41:36the agreements we put in place with41:37vendors and41:38uh you know we make sure we encrypt41:40information in these ways i41:42i think having a paper trail is41:43extremely important right now just to41:45show41:46due diligence and that you’ve been41:47paying attention to the issues41:49um i i wish41:52i’m too lawyerly to say this is for sure41:54what you should what you need to do and41:56then you’re fine41:57uh there’s always and it depends in41:59there but42:01i do think that showing clear effort is42:04going to be appreciated and making sure42:06you’re still adhering to the principles42:07that were enshrined under privacy shield42:10is going to be very important42:11um i really hope they put out another42:15framework soon or they put out some42:17guidance soon because42:19right now i feel like all of us are42:21doing our best to42:22responsibly guide our clients through42:24things but it’s42:26it’s still a very influx unsettled area42:29so uh being as responsible as possible42:32making sure we’re doing as much as we42:34can is kind of i hear a dog42:36she really wants to go outside i think42:38there’s a squirrel42:41oh well42:47and i know we had um i’m going to42:50go ahead and cue something up here42:53because we had before the show started42:57we actually had a question that was42:59submitted43:00uh from someone on twitter and i’ll see43:03if i can get this43:03added up on here real quick oh you can43:05barely see it let me make this bigger43:09like that i and43:12uh let’s see if you can see it43:16got a high puppy from uh bruce celery43:19so the dog is already a hit i don’t know43:21about us43:22but the dog is a hit i’ll tell lucy43:25she’ll be very proud43:27layla’s out there fighting with her now43:29it’ll be great43:31that’s great um so shea swagger43:35asked i’d love to hear more about what43:38meaningful consent looks like with data43:39privacy i wonder if there’s anything43:41we can borrow from sex ed about consent43:44being affirmative43:45revocable or centering care or agency43:49what do you have to say about you know43:50where we see if there are parallels that43:53we can pull from43:54you know the conversation about consent43:56in terms of our sexual relationships43:58over into uh data privacy44:02i actually think that’s a really44:03interesting way to frame it um i think44:05there’s absolutely some really valuable44:06things we can take44:07from what we consider to be uh correct44:11sexual consent to you know consent44:14around data i think44:16uh the revocable part is important i44:18think it’s important that it be clear44:20transparency is always clear make sure44:22that everyone engaged in the44:24conversation knows exactly what they’re44:25discussing44:26um and the other part that i think is is44:29actually44:30very important is is consent to various44:33steps of the process44:35so uh if i’m consenting to let a44:38business use my information so i can get44:40their services that doesn’t mean i’m44:42okay with them sharing it with a bunch44:43of other people44:44just like if i you know agree to go on a44:46date it doesn’t mean that you’re coming44:47back to my place later44:49so there’s a lot of steps in between and44:52there’s a lot of different44:53uh uses of information that should be44:55considered so full consent i think is44:57also really important when it comes to44:58data security and privacy and making45:00sure that there’s45:03the ability to consent to maybe some45:04uses of information but not all uses of45:07information45:08um i think that’s a really important45:10aspect that45:12can get overlooked sometimes the other45:14act yeah the information is used right45:16like45:17exactly it was an example that i had45:19written and i shared with shane with you45:21i think on twitter that i had written a45:23piece a few years ago45:24that was talking about um foursquare45:27knowing that i was at a bar45:29that i never searched for on foursquare45:31or on google or in any way shape or form45:33i didn’t even know the name of the bar45:34because i was going with a friend we45:36were going after an event and we walked45:37over to this bar he knew it45:39and then in the morning i got an email45:40from foursquare saying what did you45:42think45:42of name of bar it was just like what i45:46don’t i45:46until this moment i didn’t even know45:47what the bar was called and it just45:49seemed so45:50yeah it seemed so creepy and invasive to45:53me and what it what it made me think45:54about was that45:55um you know rape culture is so much45:58about45:58the the um where accountability and46:02power46:03resides and the fact that you know these46:05these46:06companies like foursquare and others46:08that are tracking your location even if46:10you’ve46:10said i i don’t want you tracking it46:12unless i’ve given you46:14the incentive or you know the the ask46:16right then and there like unless i’ve46:18said i want you tracking this i want to46:19know46:20you know where i am or where i’m going46:22or whatever and they’re tracking it in46:23the background46:24you know at least the common courtesy46:27not to tell me that you’ve46:29you’ve tracked it and so i just think46:30it’s a it’s a46:32whole disconnect around the way that46:35i think the value that the companies46:38that are collecting this data think that46:39they’re offering46:40versus what people on the other side of46:42the interaction believe the value to be46:44and then the assertion of power and46:47dominance in ways that are46:48really weird and wrong and and so yeah i46:51think it’s a really important46:52uh point that shea has brought up here i46:55agree and i think there’s actually some46:56broader parallels you can draw46:58from that to to privacy in general like47:00just because i consent for47:02one company to use certain information47:04about me and in one way doesn’t mean47:06that i can send to all companies that do47:08that service47:09to do the same thing right you know it’s47:11specific it’s to this one company that47:13i’m47:13purposely interacting with it doesn’t47:15mean that i’m okay with it in all other47:17contexts47:18and it also doesn’t necessarily mean47:20that i’m always okay with that company47:23using my information over and over you47:25know it can like47:26if i go on a date with one person that47:29doesn’t guarantee that i will go on a47:30date with them forever anytime they feel47:32like it means that47:33you have to keep checking yeah um47:37and so i think i think the47:38responsibility to follow up and to be47:40clear47:40on exactly what is being permitted is is47:44a carryover47:45absolutely so um a follow-up question47:48from47:49jenna jordan in the comments is is data47:51ownership a necessary precondition to47:53true47:54fully empowered consent though47:57that’s a really interesting question i48:00don’t know if it’s48:01ownership the thing that bothers me well48:04the thing i already gave a list of48:05things48:06one of the things that bothers me a48:07little bit about thinking of48:09data as a physical tangible good that we48:12own48:13is that that just doesn’t track with the48:14nature of it48:16it’s it’s kind of an48:19a renewable resource that way it doesn’t48:22it’s it’s not like this one thing that i48:23give this one time it’s this constantly48:25regenerating resource there’s always48:27more information about me and if i share48:29it with one person that doesn’t preclude48:31me from sharing it with other people48:33and there’s different limitations on it48:35than there would be on like a physical48:36object and in addition the ownership48:38factor i think48:42puts different parameters and48:43responsibilities on the parties involved48:45that i don’t necessarily think48:47perfectly correlate i absolutely get why48:49we constantly use it as48:51you know data as property because that’s48:54that’s just a much easier way to48:55understand it48:56the the difficult thing about48:58information49:00and part of frankly why privacy law is49:02constantly fluctuating and is such a49:05kind of squishy area of law in some ways49:08is that it49:08it just doesn’t perfectly map onto49:11property law it49:12it intersects constantly but it doesn’t49:15perfectly map49:16and it doesn’t perfectly map onto issues49:18of you know49:20contract law and liability and all of49:22that it touches all these different49:24areas but it doesn’t perfectly form into49:26anything49:28um49:33we’ve been talking for too many years49:35about data as the new oil and49:36you know there are these kind of49:38concepts of data lakes and and that sort49:40of thing but49:40there’s not those metaphors only go so49:43far and they only make so much sense49:46and i think you know data as property49:48that you can own and you can barter and49:49you can49:50you know commodify i think as we can49:53pretty clearly see when you start to49:54model it out only really works when49:56you’re talking about49:57in the aggregate as it’s monetized by a50:00corporation like facebook as opposed to50:02by an individual50:04in their own interest i agree i do think50:07to the core question50:08thinking of it as like if someone’s50:10getting consent from me for my50:12information that implies i own the50:13information i think that’s accurate it’s50:15just it’s not ownership in the same way50:17as you would own a physical good50:19like it is mine it comes from me it’s50:22about me50:23but it’s not the same as saying like my50:26house or my dogs or50:27or whatever um so i i don’t think that50:31assertion’s wrong at all i think that’s50:33correct like for consent to work you50:35have to go50:36from the base assumption that it’s50:38because it’s50:39of me and connected to me i’m the one50:42that gets to say whether you use it or50:44not50:45but i again it just it doesn’t perfectly50:47correlate when it comes to things like50:49sale or or ownership in the traditional50:52sense that way50:53yeah yeah it makes sense no i think it’s50:56an important thing that50:57you know this this is why we don’t have50:59very good metaphors for this because i51:00think there aren’t enough discussions51:02that are happening across51:03you know disciplines and considerations51:06so i think it’s51:07um it’s really healthy to to keep51:09talking about it so that we can find out51:11what the nuances are and and dive into51:13them so51:14i know we’re getting uh kind of close to51:16our hour here so i want to make sure51:18that we51:19um we get to the chance to to what i51:21think is a51:22really important question is that in my51:25work51:25around this tech humanist concept i’m51:27always trying to think about51:29how we built the best futures for the51:31most people and51:32i i wonder what you think we can do51:35around data privacy law in culture51:38to to stand a better chance of bringing51:41about the best futures51:45i think51:48i think education and empowerment are51:50both really important so51:51keeping the discussion about privacy as51:54a prominent thing51:55and and continually bringing it up and51:58kind of keeping it at the forefront of51:59people’s minds you know the52:01the other tricky thing about privacy is52:02that it’s something that’s never really52:04done52:05i mean you don’t you don’t finally52:07figure it out and like52:08check a box or send in a form and then52:11you’re done with privacy and you don’t52:12have to deal with it anymore it’s an52:13ongoing thing it’s kind of like52:16uh this is also a sad metaphor because52:19of52:19quarantine but it’s kind of like fitness52:21you know i52:23if i if i want to stay on top of it i52:25have to keep doing it i don’t get to52:27just hit a set point where i’m like52:28awesome52:29did done never have to go to the gym52:31again52:32like you have to maintain and and52:35that’s particularly true of privacy52:37because it involves tech that’s52:38constantly evolving and constantly52:40changing52:40and and regulations that are constantly52:43evolving and changing52:44um i think to make and i’m going to52:46interject and just say i think it’s a52:48challenge to us individually too because52:50we’re constantly being bombarded with52:52opportunities to participate52:53in things and share things and uh52:56divulge things about ourselves and make52:58different trade-offs and and53:00compromises that we have to evaluate on53:03the fly53:03and most people don’t have the big53:06picture to be able to make that decision53:08in as sophisticated a way as they need53:10to53:11yeah i think that’s absolutely true i53:13think for a bigger picture53:14you know trying to make the future53:16better for people when it comes to53:17privacy53:19you have to keep advocating really hard53:21um53:23you know i i i don’t know her last name53:26because it’s twitter but eva made a joke53:27the other day that53:29uh she doesn’t like being referred to as53:31a tireless privacy defender because53:32she’s like i’m tired i’m very tired i53:34would like a nap53:36um and it’s true you know you it does53:39get really tiring because it can feel a53:40little bit like you’re kind of pounding53:42your head against a wall53:43it just keeps on creeping closer to you53:45and53:46there’s there’s only so much you can do53:47but it is valuable and i think it53:50it’s important to keep in mind that53:51advocacy is is what53:53keeps protect what protections we have53:55in place53:56and it’s what pushes for regulations and53:58changes in privacy and it’s what54:01helps protect people and their54:03information and i think keeping the54:05perspective of this isn’t just for me54:07because i’m uncomfortable with alexa54:10listening to me or whatever it’s54:12it’s for people that are in more54:14vulnerable population groups it’s for54:16kids that are developing a sense of self54:18and need to be able to do that safely54:20and it’s for54:21um you know lgbtq and non-binary and54:25trans youth who who would face actual54:27danger54:28if privacy keeps getting reduced and um54:31people in in refugee communities and in54:34you know54:34uh activists that that get tracked it’s54:37it’s54:38thinking of privacy as something that54:40you fight for not just for yourself i54:41think really keeps things moving forward54:43and keeps the importance of it54:45to the forefront of your mind i think54:47it’s easy to get hung up in the like54:48well54:49what do i do i just do paperwork all day54:51every day i write54:53privacy policies nobody ever reads and i54:56i do a bunch of contract renegotiation54:59and reread laws that no one cares about55:01but but it does matter and it does make55:03a difference and i think keeping that in55:05the forefront of your mind really55:07improves things for the future and and55:09provides motivation for us to keep going55:13so that’s that’s really my biggest55:15takeaway55:16that’s a beautiful uh takeaway i think55:18privacy as advocacy55:20and thinking of it you know in the55:21biggest most interconnected sense55:23is is a beautiful way to to close this55:25out so cali schrader thank you so much55:28for joining us for the tech humanist55:30show55:30thanks to everyone who watched live and55:32offered comments uh55:34and questions and uh thanks to all the55:36listeners55:37out there uh please go ahead and55:39subscribe comment like wherever you see55:41this55:42and um please tell your friends about it55:44thanks again calli55:45and we’ll see you next time no problem55:47thank you so much for having me