What an honor it was to have guest John Whitson-Russell on our Podcast! John is from the UK and knows Casey and John from training. He loves Motivational Interviewing and just started a new role within his company using his expert skills.In this podcast we discuss:LeadershipConfidenceCompetenceMotivational InterviewingAnd much more!You don’t want to miss out!Hello, and welcome to the communications solution podcast here at IFI IOC. We love to talk communication. We love to talk motivational interviewing, and we love talking about improving outcomes for individuals, organizations, and the communities that they serve.. Today, we’ve got Casey Jackson on the line, John Gilbert, and I’m Tammy.Welcome to the conversation. We have John Whitson Russell today with us who is?Yes, we will. Yes all the way from across the pond. So we want to hear more about John as a fellow MINTEE here, and I’m a very funny person and all sorts of things to explore with you today. So I know you have some ideas of what to get into and Casey, you have some questions for him, so, [And, uh, we got a lot to dig into. So, uh, if you wouldn’t mind, Casey or John, start us off with. Uh, you would like to get into,well, I’m just going to start off with just welcoming John, Harry, just, uh, such, uh, we haven’t spent tons of time together, but the time we’ve spent together, it just feels like a dear friend to me. Um, he hosted me when I was over, uh, in the UK, um, doing training on the Mica after I developed a MICA (Motivational Interviewing Competency Assessment). John and a couple other mentees from, um, from Ireland and Scotland and England had reached out part of the UK mentees and said, Hey, tell us about this Mica thing.And so we did kind of a Skype conversation around it and they’re like, Hey, do you want to come over here? Do a training. And so I did a little tour over there and [So, uh, and he was so, so accommodating. That’s all I can say is he was very accommodating to show me what pub life was like and scotch eggs, which I’d had before once. And so, uh, I went off my vegetarian bent and, uh, dove in face first into a handful of. It was worth every single bite. I’ve got to say that as well, too.So, so just, I, I just want people to know what I think there’s, we all get obsessed with motivational interviewing. I, you know, we’re all kind of what, what brought you into the, into motivational interviewing? I mean, to give people a bit about your background, but what, what got you into, into motivational.Okay, so thank you. And, uh, I want to thank you, John and Casey and [It’s like a combination of like a taxi driver, a personal chef, a personal, like we went through a lot together and you know, it, it, it was fun. And the shared love of, of EMI and everything. And, you know, I I’m, I feel very lucky. I came into M I early on in, um, in my career and I started learning about Motivational Interviewing whilst I was at university, uh, training to be a, so I did.Uh, a bachelor’s in sports and exercise science and psychology. And really my goal at the time was to be the best personal trainer I could possibly be to [How can I help somebody to lose weight with. The best program I can give them. And, um, it was my, probably near the end of my first year of my undergraduate. I’ve been delivering some fitness instruction and personal training for a while. And like I w I had a lecture on Motivational Interviewing and it just spoke to. As being something that I’d never heard of before and something that seemed really natural and accommodating and respectful.And, uh, I immediately went up to my tutor afterwards and said, I’d like to do this as a dissertation. And she said, you should probably wait. We’re halfway through the first. Um, you know, let’s, let’s [Um, you can, uh, watch them on. 12 inch TV that we have within built VHS player. Um, you know, they were so valuable. We weren’t allowed to take them home. Um, and, uh, I remember, uh, coaxing another one of my friends to come and watch it. And we, we went through, um, you know, uh, some of the videos that maybe you’ve used might be familiar with.So silent man, the rounder and some of the other folks. Uh, that, you know, bill Steve. Yeah. Real classics. And I just remember watching them unfold. And you know, at the time, uh, wrap this up in a minute, sorry. At the time having had, you know, clients in the personal training gym I was working at, I was thinking, this is it’s me.That’s [And I thought, well, it can’t be me. I’m delivering the same thing. And through that work, it made me realize that I needed to change my. So that’s kind of how I fell into it. Love it. I love that. Yeah. That’s a great example. Yeah, it was an old, so what brings you up to where you’re at now? I mean, it’s fascinating for me just since you and I got to connect on kind of a professional level and a personal level.So I, you know, have a little bit of an eye that follows part of your trajectory with motivational Interviewing. You can just professionally, where are you [And my roles morphed from being a personal trainer into, um, a national health service. Um, Trainer. We were called at the time a health coach. So I’m employed by the national health service to see people one-to-one and in groups to help people to make behavior change around lifestyle and working with people from all different backgrounds, all different walks of life, and really enjoying that aspect of the delivery, but wanting more responsible.And, uh, really that pathway and the career at the time, the responsibility was [W I was starting to put more of my. Into one’s one’s into supervisions into not like inspiration, but in helping draw out from my team. Where they wanted to go with people. And as someone who hates being told what to do, it kind of fitted with my mold, um, quite well. And so I was lucky enough to get a role in Gloucestershire, um, as the director of healthy lifestyles for the county.And, uh, recently, um, last week, um, I’ve started a new role in my organization as the director of, uh, people progress and positivity to spread. [If there was that job description, they just have a picture of your shiny little face right next to that job description. So I just think they put that in there and then you just happen to show up. They go, this is the guy that we actually built the job for to hear that case you thank you. I’m so excited about it.And I feel so privileged to have a role where we can build a culture. Like I’ve tried to build within the county of England that I work within. And my goal with the team, it’s a relatively small team. It’s a team of 20. And my goal was to instill an MI (Motivational Interviewing) culture, a behavior change culture of autonomous.And purpose and self [See. You know, what I love about that, John is I remember years and years ago when I was, I was minted in oh eight and one of the first conferences, the first forums I got to go to was in San Diego. And I remember I was doing work with organizations. I mean, that’s why I, when I started my company, it’s the Institute for individual and organizational change because I was connecting those dots.I remember one of the main speakers. Who wasn’t a mentee, um, said that well, yeah, your method of communication is phenomenal. It’s great for what it does, but it’s not really designed [I don’t think it fits an organizational settings, but I, I always, you can see this evolution in motivational interviewing, like with the lead group and in the, in the world that so many people are looking at motivational and leadership and integration in that. And I just think that I. I think that if you’re a, you know, in the geekdom like we are, I don’t know how you can continue to explore and not start to see systems impact and look at just basic structures.So to hear you talk about it from that level, you know, because we’re not, side-by-side working together, it’s just fascinating to think that if you really are invested in seeing. Human change. There’s no way it won’t evolve to a place where you start looking at system change. And how do we conceptualize that that’s values driven.I love what you said. Literally, Tammy and I had a conversation this morning before this about [Um, so I just, I just really appreciate what you’re, what you’re talking about. Thanks, Casey. Yeah, it makes so much sense to me, to me too. And I’m sure the other people listening, it will make a lot of sense that, you know, we are in the next era of leadership and our ability to influence, um, multiple generations in the workplace aligned values, aligned mission, you know, uh, from where we’ve come from in, you know, in, in, in a more industrial era to being able to do what we’re doing now and to be able to connect remotely.And, you know, spread that culture through Motivational Interviewing, they kind of go hand in hand, let the respectfulness, the compassion, the partnership, it just emanates. Doesn’t it. Um, and what I’m really interested in, and you said it, it was it’s, it’s an [And, you know, the ability as a leader to step back and to, you know, be the one that takes all the failure, but not be the one that takes the credit because you know that if other people take the credit, they’ll see that happening and they’ll be more likely to give it away. And it’s like, when someone smiles.And you smile and then you smile at someone else, or someone does a random act of kindness for you and you feel like you want to pass that on. And that’s where we’re going with this next evolution of leadership. Um, you know, that’s well, and what I like about that too, you know, tying it back into. You just look at things fundamentally shift when people are making decisions based on their values, instead of just trying to get to the accomplishment or the performance indicator.And not that we negate those [And that’s that to me is just, and that we have metric that’s my obsession with coding and coaching, like developing the Motivational Interviewing Competency Assessment. It, it has to do. There is a rubric. There’s a structure where we can get feedback. So it’s not just, you know, kumbaya and hold hands and, and, and like each other that there is metrics behind, how do we get better and better at this individually and collectively.And that’s, that’s where my, my brain just starts to get blown because just like, this is just phenomenal that we can be so values-driven and see improvements in our, the culture of our organizations and in the products and the people that we serve get better. That’s why I love the title of your tea. I’m just blown away by the title here.[We talked about it being a role at that. So many conversations around what the role might be. We knew that this role was important and that it’s not just, like you said, a kumbaya kind of, you know, happiness role, you know that it’s, you, you are. You know, and I, I know there are great roles and people do such good work as things like happiness officers, but we were, uh, we were really keen for this to be, you know, because without getting into happiness, like happiness is a state at the time.And if your goal is happiness, you’re never going to be. Yeah. So, so, so, so actually, you know, can we work on what this positivity looks like? There was always a way to do this and that the thing that I’m really interested in is how do you, like we’re talking quite topless. You know, you talk about mission and values and direction and, and, and, and that, and all of that is so important.But then how do you drill that down to, what [How can I, you know, work in partnership with this person? How can I accept what they say and how can I evoke the best from them? And then either walk into the meeting or press that little video button that, you know, and then they’ll pop up. Like, how can we do that? But, so that’s one side of it. That’s how you approach it.But then how do you have. And how does it, how does am I connect with having a really difficult conversation with somebody about performance? Um, you know, how can we get the best out of somebody when you know, the KPIs and the metrics and everything else aren’t there, or people aren’t the standard that we think they’re capable of and how do you do that in a respectful [Um, and that’s, that’s kind of what I’m really interested in at the moment. Know, I think that’s fascinating. We, there was a project I was working on and. They wanted to know. They want to see if I had a perspective on updating their annual performance evaluation process. And, and for me it links into exactly what you said.I said, what it’ll come down to is how much does leadership believe in their own vision statement? Um, and are you supporting your staff to enact the mission statement? And then we’re going to start your performance evaluation is why did you take this job? What about this fulfills you? And in what ways have you.Feel like your behavior is aligned with that in the last year. And what ways do you feel like you would want to up your game? So you can be the missionary for what our vision and values are in a way that supports you. And that is, I don’t know how you get to a better, more, a more, a functional empowerment perspective [You know, you’re the missionary in our vision statement. And what do you need to be the best missionary you can be with our mission statement, 10 act, the vision that we’re looking for. I that, that, to me, it’s such a beautiful structure for a performance evaluation. Would it be helpful if you had some feedback about how other people see your performance and what do you, how do you assess your performance first?And then who do you respect this organization that you’d like to see what their perspective is on? I mean, that just is such a, it’s a comprehensive, supportive. You know, person centered way of, of supporting autonomy while keeping vision clearance, where I’m really curious. I ammore, but John uses a special. When you think about, you know, what your experiences has have been in [And then, you know, John, you were talking about having conversations where you can see something in someone that there’s this capability of more. And there seems to be, uh, there. As well, almost like a, you have more in you almost like an affirmation sort of thing. So how do you fit these things? When there’s an external say, performance measure that you genuinely believe that someone can has the capability to hit, but then that person.Isn’t hitting it, but then you’re putting choice back in their lap at a certain point. Do you [And there is a capability, but there are certain things that maybe due to the way the organization is structured that have to get done by that role. How would you go about that? Or what are your thoughts for, for any of you on that?Thanks, John. The first thing that comes to mind for me is self vulnerability in this and something that I [And they, they couldn’t possibly do these things. And so I’m trying to put other people in the position that they become a leader already in something. And, you know, they find their, you know, why are they doing this? Something you mentioned already Casey there and how do I help the person if you know, if they want to lean into it to fulfill their own personal mission in what they’re doing, what’s important to them about this.So they have. You know their own way to go and. But when it comes, you know, we have targets to hit and it’s important for our organization to hit [Um, you know, especially for us, we, you know, we serve the community and I think that, you know, for me, there’s a combination of data involved in this knowing. This is the performance and that you are clear on what your performance is and the, at the moment you aren’t hitting that performance. Tell me what’s going on for, you know, we’ll follow a coaching role.We’re following a mentoring role with the person, and then we’ll put a structured plan in place for that person to do it. We are honest through, you know, through the whole way. And, um, I think, you know, talking to people about how they’re doing, but also with a, with an expectation, a clear expectation of what I expect from you as a person, and that if they aren’t doing that, that we will have another conversation about it and then another [And that may involve you exiting the. Or it may involve you, you know, hitting your targets and moving onto something bigger and better, which, you know, you are capable of, but at the moment you might not be demonstrating. And it’s that honesty and that, you know, the, you know, for you is do you want to be here doing this?And almost everybody says, yes, of course I absolutely want to be here doing this. This is important too. And then, you know, what, what do we do to get to that? And, you know, but that, and just the sandwiching that in with a vulnerability that obviously it’s very hard for the person to have those conversations, but it’s equally hard as a leader.Somebody who generally wants people to thrive, to have a conversation with someone that puts someone in a position of hierarchy, you know, underneath. Um, you know, and the [Answers it with flying colors for me in so many levels of being respectful and still having that clear expectation. And what that expectation is is for funding and thriving of the organization. And the existence of the mission and the values and making it about that existence and that thriving more than about the KPIs or whatever the expectation is.It’s much more that that is an indicator of us thriving and living for the mission and, and, and the capability and demonstrating that. So all of that answers that I’m really particularly curious to then how do you have conversations? Um, where certain organizations I know are out there, I’ve some friends [And so again, uh, Casey or Tammy feel free also to jump in here. So there’s a big culture around psychological safety. There’s a lot of things happening in the world around race and other sorts of issues coming up and things of respecting each other. That you’re talking about this performance and this competence.And so how do you have conversations? You know, and again, anyone, but John, especially with what you said, how do you have conversations about competence? If there seems to be a lack of either competence or a lack of that capability, even when the supports are in place, um, when that’s been. Kind of supported as best you possibly can.And yet you’re trying to have psychological safety and trying to respect all the dynamics of the situation. How do you, what are your thoughts about.[At w w w would you mind if I just say what’s front of brain for me now and just, um, I think if there’s a lack of competence, it indicates a lack of confidence. Um, I think what, when I’m identifying with folks, especially new people coming into the organization, you have people who have been here for, for quite a long time, and it’s intimidating.People don’t want to speak up. They don’t want to say what’s on their mind. And actually those people are the ones that are coming into the ones that are going to be better able to notice. And we know that a length of service in an organization doesn’t predicate your ability to. And so the psychological safety aspect of it, you know, I have a lot of one-to-one meetings with team to try and build that confidence in people.[So I’m trying to say, well, you know, more about something than everybody else here, and it’s about finding out what that is. And so whether it’s somebody who might co-train with me delivering an Motivational Interviewing session, somebody who might look to do a talk on. Diabetes management or the stages of change model, um, or, um, we work in smoking cessation.So if you have a specific, um, expertise in vaping or whatever it is, I’m trying to cultivate that mastery in a specific topic for each person in the organization. So they feel confident and competent that other people will go to. [You, you, you, you’re kind of aligning your expertise. And so by building people’s confidence, you know, my belief is that it builds their competence. I love that. The one thing that I’d add to that as well, to link to it is building off. We’re talking about earlier. Organizational or leadership in motivational interviewing.I think it also lends itself to our hiring practices as well. Um, because sometimes we do it out of desperation. If the competence isn’t there, or, and I think in this day and age currently with hiring, you know, trying to find workforce to hire, um, I think those are things that are really important as well, too.And so what I look at is in your hiring practices, It’s part of the organization should be looking at competence. And [Then it’s the role and the responsibility of the organization to make sure they’re cultivating that professional because that’s part of our duty in any organization is to also evolve a workforce as well, too. So I love that the individual nuances you’re talking about for the individual, and then I think organizationally, we do need to be more savvy in our hiring practices.And once we hire, how are we developing in a way that’s non traditional? I know in American government. It’s just not a very nice way that they do annual evaluations. Um, they know that they’re not going to get fired. Um, they know that it probably doesn’t have much to do with anything when they write down their performance evaluations and it leads to mediocrity and, um, And this, what we’re looking at is how do we keep evolving towards our [So they’re just, again, it’s an individual and organization and structure level that I think is just absolutely fascinating and that we have a method of communication. That’s for me toindividually in class of higher ed. That’s what ties us all together. Culture we’re hiring in. And then John, what you talked about at the beginning, then there might be conversations about. Hi confidence, low, at least demonstrated competence to have in the ways you talked about in the beginning of feedback and having conversations and supporting it at a certain point, then you either can, or can’t continue supporting.And the more you have that baked into your culture and the more that is an objective measure with data, the easier. To explore that, but still [So, anyhow, that was really, um, quite, quite comprehensive. And at the same time, I want to keep talking with you, John, but I know we’re also coming up to a hard time. Um,I know what he’s just right there. So I feel like it says we’re up this stuff. I just want to run over to his place and grab a cup of tea with him right now where I’m at unlimited.We’ll be there in about 15 hours. That’s fine. Nope. I’ll put it onjust while the kettle’s boiling. And you know, I think you mentioned CA Casey about, you know, [Unnecessary and aligning it with the contribution, whatever your role is. You know, a lot of the people that I work with are direct deliverers, but we also have 30% of the organization who never directly deliver anything, but feed into that. And you know, and this definitely is. All me, there were, there were much better people in the team of people I’m fortunate to work in, who are [And, um, I’m forever grateful to their ability to be able to, you know, to, to signpost, to their greatness and, and for them to help guide somebody along. And hopefully we’re building this culture where, when someone needs some help. We can signpost them to someone who has a specialism in the area who can help them grow.And that adds another building block to their confidence as well. Um, and John, yeah, I love how you brought that together. I just gotta tell you now my brain is going to run off of this for days and days and days now, what you just, wouldn’t it be fascinating if from this point forward, what people said when you say, well, what do you do?The people listed their mission versus their title. Oh, wow. Yes. What do you do? And I mean, when you said that John, that just triggered me and I thought [Uh, improve the lives of people around me with the communication method to help them become the people that they want to be. Yes. I would just be startled in a scene, how people would respond. Well, I don’t think we rounded off titles, but it would create so much intrigue. Like I want to keep going on with and Russell, we can have you back.That would be absolutely wonderful. Um, but yeah, this is John Gilbert. You gonna take us out of this so rich and there’s so many other things to go into that. I’m also going to be thinking about what we talked about as well, Casey, to what you were saying. Um, that being said for now, hopefully all of you that are listening, got some value out of this, that it helps you with the individuals, organizations, and communities you serve.As we always like to say, and that this can be. At [Culture really is what we’re talking about. And hopefully we get to talk more about that with you, John, uh, in the future. And for now wishing you all the absolute best. Is there anything else to say before we sign off? I just appreciate you coming on, John. Can’t wait to hang out again. Thank you all for having me so much, and I’d love to come back.Perfect. Thank you for listening to the communication solution podcast as always. This podcast is all about you. So if you have questions, thoughts, topics, suggestions, ideas, please send them our way at [We have an amazing BLOG. And we have lots of communication tips on our website. In addition to all these amazing resources we do offer online public courses on our website on motivational interviewing and effective communication strategies. Thanks for listening to the communication solution by IFIOC.Want to be a part of the conversation?Want to be a part of our podcast? Ask your questions, or provide topic suggestions to us by e-mailing [email protected]. 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