Greg Thomas (who previously spoke with me here and here) and Jewel Kinch-Thomas of the Jazz Leadership Project join me to explore the extraordinary ways that jazz builds collaborative leadership. This is one of the most enjoyable conversations I’ve had on the podcast. I learned new ways of thinking about group flow states, elite performance, and deliberately practicing in teams. If you like this conversation, please share with friends! Highlights * 3:30 Two big misunderstandings people have about jazz * 8:00 Why is jazz a more useful metaphor for leadership than orchestra or opera? * 22:00 The rhythm section exemplifies shared leadership * 26:00 From “that’s not my role” to using signals to help each other out * 32:00 Constant feedback helps you perform at a high level * 36:30 Ensemble mindset, “big ears”, and three ways to listen * 43:00 Group flow states and grooving to the music * 55:00 Developing excellence by practicing “in the shed” * 1:00:30 Trading silos for shared purpose so you hum as a team Listen to the Podcast Listen Explore Additional Resources * Jazz Leadership Project * Tune Into Leadership, Greg and Jewel’s new blog   Greg Thomas (who previously spoke with me here and here) and Jewel Kinch-Thomas of the Jazz Leadership Project join me to explore the extraordinary ways that jazz builds collaborative leadership. This is one of the most enjoyable conversations I’ve had on the podcast. I learned new ways of thinking about group flow states, elite performance, and deliberately practicing in teams. If you like this conversation, please share with friends! Highlights * 3:30 Two big misunderstandings people have about jazz * 8:00 Why is jazz a more useful metaphor for leadership than orchestra or opera? * 22:00 The rhythm section exemplifies shared leadership * 26:00 From “that’s not my role” to using signals to help each other out * 32:00 Constant feedback helps you perform at a high level * 36:30 Ensemble mindset, “big ears”, and three ways to listen * 43:00 Group flow states and grooving to the music * 55:00 Developing excellence by practicing “in the shed” * 1:00:30 Trading silos for shared purpose so you hum as a team Listen to the Podcast Listen Explore Additional Resources * Jazz Leadership Project * Tune Into Leadership, Greg and Jewel’s new blog  

Integral politics involves appreciating what’s good, true, and beautiful and what’s missing in every worldview in our culture. This is neither the mushy middle nor mere theory, but instead a practical way forward in a puzzling world. The idea of integral politics is straightforward: listen closely to every perspective, take the best, and jettison the rest. Breathe in the truth. Breathe out the partial nature of it. Just as a good health program involves supplementing different practices, integral politics asks: why not also supplement different worldviews? A Leading Voice Of Integral Politics For many years, Jeff Salzman has been a leading voice of integral politics. Through his podcast, The Daily Evolver, Jeff has brought this integral vantage point to everything from Presidential politics to #metoo to movies to economics. This week, Jeff joins me to describe the tribal, warrior, traditional, modern, and postmodern worldviews and the many ways they battle in today’s politics. We discuss political correctness on college campuses, Cold War anticommunism, why God is both everywhere and nowhere, how life is a heartbreaking catastrophe yet we go on, the post-war liberal consensus and how it shattered, what Jeff does when encountering politicians who trigger him, why psychopaths are people too, and how as a young adult Jeff got tired of sitting through yet another heterosexual love scene at the movies. Integral politics has something to say about all of this! Integral Politics Stretches The Mind This discussion of integral politics will stretch your mind, and it’s longer than our average episode, so you’ll get extended mind-stretching! (Note: the audio quality on my end in this interview is less than usual. I don’t know why.) The Amiel Show is taking a six-week summer break, so you will have time to savor this conversation before I return with a new episode in September. In other news, I turned 49 on Tuesday. I am dedicating my 50th year on the planet to sharing my interviews and ideas with more people. Way more people. I call it the Big Tribe project. You are a huge part of it, so here’s step one: if you are intrigued or inspired by what you hear, please share this interview with friends and encourage them to subscribe to the podcast. I’m also offering a free copy of my E-Book, Leading When You’re Ticked Off And Other Tips For Mastering Complexity, in this blog post on my web site. Highlights * 9:00 The discipline and faith of the traditional worldview. Jeff as church camper of the year. * 14:00 As humanity moves forward, there are more stages of development present * 21:00 There is a hierarchy of growth that is natural and beautiful * 26:30 Ken Wilber’s Four Quadrants * 31:00 We get sick to death of the stage we’re at * 38:00 Posmodernism and “Where the fuck am I” in this movie? * 46:00 In a good-versus-evil society, you’d be irresponsible to not annihilate your enemy * 1:04:00 When you have a stack of worldviews at war with each other * 1:10:00 It’s good we’re battling in comments sections, not with clubs and knives * 1:24:00 The power of Mr. Trump’s shameless grandiose ego Listen to the Podcast Explore Additional Resources * The Daily Evolver podcast   Integral politics involves appreciating what’s good, true, and beautiful and what’s missing in every worldview in our culture. This is neither the mushy middle nor mere theory, but instead a practical way forward in a puzzling world. The idea of integral politics is straightforward: listen closely to every perspective, take the best, and jettison the rest. Breathe in the truth. Breathe out the partial nature of it.

Mark Milstein has been thinking and talking about sustainable enterprises for a quarter century. In this conversation—which continues the Amiel Show’s series on climate change, sustainable business, and clean tech—Mark and I discuss his professional and intellectual journey, how the field of sustainable enterprise has grown, what he’s created at Cornell, why the private sector matters, where sustainability happens inside companies, and who signs up for his classes these days. Mark and I hadn’t spoken for 15-20 years, so this was also a fun chance to catch up and debate whether or not “Mimbo: The Gentle Art of Japanese Extortion” is relevant for people leading in politically complex environments. If you like what you hear, please share. Podcast listening is a participatory sport! Highlights * 9:00 Mark is dissatisfied intellectual with his MBA program and adds a second degree * 15:00 A professor tells Mark, “I do not like you people.” * 20:00 Mark reverses a huge decision at the mailbox * 28:00 Are companies the problem and/or the solution? * 36:30 Mark creates a curriculum in sustainability at Cornell * 52:00 Faculty resistance to talking about sustainable enterprise has broken down * 58:00 Different strokes by different folks: CSR, environment management, sustainable enterprise * 1:06:00 Unilever, living wages, frontier markets, Base of the Pyramid * 1:12:00 What is greenwashing? * 1:19:00 Overtourism, ecotourism, and destination managers Listen to the Podcast [powerpress] Explore Additional Resources * Center for Sustainable Global Enterprise at SC Johnson College of Business at Cornell University   Mark Milstein has been thinking and talking about sustainable enterprises for a quarter century. In this conversation—which continues the Amiel Show’s series on climate change, sustainable business, and clean tech—Mark and I discuss his professional and intellectual journey, how the field of sustainable enterprise has grown, what he’s created at Cornell, why the private sector matters, where sustainability happens inside companies, and who signs up for his classes these days. Mark and I hadn’t spoken for 15-20 years, so this was also a fun chance to catch up and debate whether or not “Mimbo: The Gentle Art of Japanese Extortion” is relevant for people leading in politically complex environments. If you like what you hear, please share. Podcast listening is a participatory sport! Highlights * 9:00 Mark is dissatisfied intellectual with his MBA program and adds a second degree * 15:00 A professor tells Mark, “I do not like you people.” * 20:00 Mark reverses a huge decision at the mailbox * 28:00 Are companies the problem and/or the solution? * 36:30 Mark creates a curriculum in sustainability at Cornell * 52:00 Faculty resistance to talking about sustainable enterprise has broken down * 58:00 Different strokes by different folks: CSR, environment management, sustainable enterprise * 1:06:00 Unilever, living wages, frontier markets, Base of the Pyramid * 1:12:00 What is greenwashing? * 1:19:00 Overtourism, ecotourism, and destination managers Listen to the Podcast [powerpress] Explore Additional Resources * Center for Sustainable Global Enterprise at SC Johnson College of Business at Cornell University  

This week, we turn the tables. Chris Chittenden, senior ontological coach and past podcast guest, interviews me about my journey with sustainable business. I found the experience liberating. We discuss why I started a series on climate change, clean technology and sustainable business, the people and ideas who have influenced me, how I work with regret, and how I express these commitments in the life I was given. I hope that this taste of my journey gives you insight and courage on your own journey. If you get value from this, please share with friends. Listen to the Podcast   This week, we turn the tables. Chris Chittenden, senior ontological coach and past podcast guest, interviews me about my journey with sustainable business. I found the experience liberating. We discuss why I started a series on climate change, clean technology and sustainable business, the people and ideas who have influenced me, how I work with regret, and how I express these commitments in the life I was given. I hope that this taste of my journey gives you insight and courage on your own journey. If you get value from this, please share with friends. Listen to the Podcast  

Think about climate change. This can feel like walking on a knife’s edge. This week, Theo Horesh brings this perspective and many other fresh insights to my series on sustainable business, climate change, and clean technology. Theo and I discuss what it is about human brains and human evolution that makes climate change such an elusive topic, how fascism relates to climate change (hey, why stop at one foreboding topic?), why apocalyptic thinking exists and how it looks different on the political left and right, the gifts and limitations of the Go Local movement, and practical tips for expanding our hearts and minds. In the middle of all this, I jump in to explain why today’s progressive is yesterday’s Eisenhower Republican. Theo is great at explaining complex topics without either squashing their complexity or confusing the listener. And I always end conversations with him feeling wiser and more engaged than when we started. Highlights * 6:00 How do fascist leaders affect climate change? * 12:00 How Amiel’s computer programming ineptitude prevented nuclear war * 17:00 Different ways to interpret big storms * 23:00 How facing climate change became the structure of Theo’s life * 27:30 It’s easy to be vague and apocalyptic * 35:00 Varieties of conservative apocalyptic thinking * 39:00 True But Partial Challenge—the Go Local movement * 41:30 You have to get your inspiration from somewhere * 50:00 Amiel redefines the political center * 57:30 Reading The Economist gives Theo the “wows” Listen to the Podcast Listen Explore Additional Resources * Theo’s latest book, The Holocausts We All Deny: Collective Trauma In The World Today   Think about climate change. This can feel like walking on a knife’s edge. This week, Theo Horesh brings this perspective and many other fresh insights to my series on sustainable business, climate change, and clean technology. Theo and I discuss what it is about human brains and human evolution that makes climate change such an elusive topic, how fascism relates to climate change (hey, why stop at one foreboding topic?), why apocalyptic thinking exists and how it looks different on the political left and right, the gifts and limitations of the Go Local movement, and practical tips for expanding our hearts and minds. In the middle of all this, I jump in to explain why today’s progressive is yesterday’s Eisenhower Republican. Theo is great at explaining complex topics without either squashing their complexity or confusing the listener. And I always end conversations with him feeling wiser and more engaged than when we started. Highlights * 6:00 How do fascist leaders affect climate change? * 12:00 How Amiel’s computer programming ineptitude prevented nuclear war * 17:00 Different ways to interpret big storms * 23:00 How facing climate change became the structure of Theo’s life * 27:30 It’s easy to be vague and apocalyptic * 35:00 Varieties of conservative apocalyptic thinking * 39:00 True But Partial Challenge—the Go Local movement * 41:30 You have to get your inspiration from somewhere * 50:00 Amiel redefines the political center * 57:30 Reading The Economist gives Theo the “wows” Listen to the Podcast Listen Explore Additional Resources * Theo’s latest book,

What if we reframed climate change as an invitation to live a full and meaningful life? For business leaders, what if it provided the catalyzing purpose that so many of us seek? For my colleagues in the field of leadership development, why not us, and why not now? The first question is the theme of Terry Patten’s extraordinary book, A New Republic of the Heart: An Ethos for Revolutionaries. This week, Terry joins me to discuss the book and its relevance for leaders, coaches, and all of us. It is the third episode in my new series on climate change, sustainable business, and clean technology. Find a quiet environment. Pull up a seat. Grab a cup of tea. Have a listen. And if you like it, please share with people who would enjoy it, too. Highlights * 7:00 When we point at a problem, three of our fingers are pointing back at ourselves * 22:00 We have more to metabolize than we ever have before * 28:30 How insane it is to become unhappy * 35:30 Noticing that I’ve always been doing the best I can * 40:00 The “consensus trance” * 46:00 Terry takes the True But Partial Challenge * 56:00 This is all improv * 1:02:00 No-matter-what commitment Listen to the Podcast Explore Additional Resources * Terry’s web site * Terry’s book, A New Republic of the Heart What if we reframed climate change as an invitation to live a full and meaningful life? For business leaders, what if it provided the catalyzing purpose that so many of us seek? For my colleagues in the field of leadership development, why not us, and why not now? The first question is the theme of Terry Patten’s extraordinary book, A New Republic of the Heart: An Ethos for Revolutionaries. This week, Terry joins me to discuss the book and its relevance for leaders, coaches, and all of us. It is the third episode in my new series on climate change, sustainable business, and clean technology. Find a quiet environment. Pull up a seat. Grab a cup of tea. Have a listen. And if you like it, please share with people who would enjoy it, too. Highlights * 7:00 When we point at a problem, three of our fingers are pointing back at ourselves * 22:00 We have more to metabolize than we ever have before * 28:30 How insane it is to become unhappy * 35:30 Noticing that I’ve always been doing the best I can * 40:00 The “consensus trance” * 46:00 Terry takes the True But Partial Challenge * 56:00 This is all improv * 1:02:00 No-matter-what commitment Listen to the Podcast Explore Additional Resources * Terry’s web site * Terry’s book, A New Republic of the Heart

This week I launch a new series about climate change, sustainable business, and clean technology. My goal is to explore these big, complex topics from multiple perspectives, with an open heart, and for the purpose of generating positive action. Multiple perspective-taking matters because each way we frame these topics is both useful and limiting—in the terminology of integral thinking, both “true” and “partial.” An open heart matters because what’s at stake is momentous, and without it, all that’s left is a big mushy bowl of anxiety. And positive action—well, heck, that’s what it’s all about, isn’t it? To launch this series (my interview with Ron Pernick of Clean Edge about clean tech was a prequel), I reached out to Kevin Wilhelm. Kevin is the founding leader of Sustainable Business Consulting, author of several books including Return on Sustainability, and a convincing thought leader. In this conversation, we discuss how Kevin cut his teeth in a field that didn’t yet exist, the people who told him “that won’t happen,” how his company’s work boosts client employee engagement, his role as organizational translator, the forefathers and foremothers of the field, and how he makes sense of recent alarming reports about climate change. One more thing. In the past two years, I’ve had the opportunity to partner with more organizations in clean tech, energy efficiency and climate change than in the previous decade before that. Growing leaders and teams in these organizations is a total joy. As I tell Kevin, if I spent 98% of my time doing this, that wouldn’t be too much. People like Kevin give me inspiration to continue reaching out and making new offers. If you like this conversation, please share with friends. Highlights * 7:00 Creating a new market niche * 20:00 From “do the right thing” to “investors are demanding this” * 25:00 Translating and meeting people where they are at * 29:00 Sustainability increases employee engagement, attraction, and retention * 33:00 Stock analysts have finally caught on * 41:00 What’s missing in the public conversation about climate change * 45:00 Amiel’s riff on time horizons, climate change, and adult development * 49:00 Why spend $300K watering a lawn in a forest fire region? Listen to the Podcast Explore Additional Resources * Sustainable Business Consulting   This week I launch a new series about climate change, sustainable business, and clean technology. My goal is to explore these big, complex topics from multiple perspectives, with an open heart, and for the purpose of generating positive action. Multiple perspective-taking matters because each way we frame these topics is both useful and limiting—in the terminology of integral thinking, both “true” and “partial.” An open heart matters because what’s at stake is momentous, and without it, all that’s left is a big mushy bowl of anxiety. And positive action—well, heck, that’s what it’s all about, isn’t it? To launch this series (my interview with Ron Pernick of Clean Edge about clean tech was a prequel), I reached out to Kevin Wilhelm. Kevin is the founding leader of Sustainable Business Consulting, author of several books including Return on Sustainability, and a convincing thought leader. In this conversation,

  This week, contrarian business thought leader Carol Sanford joins me to discuss her new book, No More Feedback. If the title strikes you as both surprising and unnerving, welcome to the club. Within organizations giving and receiving feedback are widely considered noble acts. Although we may not be competent at feedback, we know it’s a good thing—key to personal growth and leadership development. Carol says, “no, not really.” In her view, any effort to ask another person where I am strong or how I could improve is intrinsically harmful, even toxic. For this reason she offers a harsh critique of annual performance reviews, competency models, and 360 degree interviews. The damage they cause is so profound (e.g. rewarding conformity, shifting attention from big promises, encouraging confirmation bias, and reducing self-reflection) and the foundation upon which they are based is so flawed that it’s foolish to tweak them. Instead, Carol argues, get rid of feedback entirely. Three things I learned in talking with Carol: * I share her assessment of most of the activities that she calls “feedback.” * When I use the term “feedback”—for example, as one of four steps in the on-the-job-practice cycle—I’m talking about something that Carol does not consider feedback because the person requesting it is authoring their own learning. * I can stay grounded while listening to someone critique a practice near and dear to my heart, as Carol does with the Enneagram. In fact, it’s kind of fun. Have a listen, and tell me what you think. Highlights * 10:00 Humans as machines, the first seedbed of feedback * 17:00 Three foundational capacities of people to cultivate * 24:30 Jerry, a contrarian at Weyerhaeuser pushed out for not conforming * 32:00 Feedback raises anxiety * 41:00 Opportunities to self-reflect can break attachment to 360 feedback * 49:00 Why modifying feedback systems doesn’t work: the premise is flawed * 54:00 Carol only has people assess themselves in relation to a big promise they are making in the world * 1:02:00 Carol’s work with Seventh Generation when it was in the red * 1:12:00 Perils of low fat diet, benefits of intermittent fasting Listen to the Podcast Explore Additional Resources * Carol’s web site     This week, contrarian business thought leader Carol Sanford joins me to discuss her new book, No More Feedback. If the title strikes you as both surprising and unnerving, welcome to the club. Within organizations giving and receiving feedback are widely considered noble acts. Although we may not be competent at feedback, we know it’s a good thing—key to personal growth and leadership development. Carol says, “no, not really.” In her view, any effort to ask another person where I am strong or how I could improve is intrinsically harmful, even toxic. For this reason she offers a harsh critique of annual performance reviews, competency models, and 360 degree interviews. The damage they cause is so profound (e.g. rewarding conformity, shifting attention from big promises, encouraging confirmation bias, and reducing self-reflection) and the foundation upon which they are based is so flawed that it’s foolish to tweak them. Instead, Carol argues, get rid of feedback entirely. Three things I learned in talking with Carol: * I share her assessment of most of the activities that she calls “feedback.”

Welcome to 3-minute Thursday. This week I introduce a way to bring more ease into your day. The practice is called Two Feet, Five Breaths. It takes one minute and requires no equipment. All you need is a place to sit and some form of breathing apparatus. (I recommend the lungs.) The other great thing about this practice? You prove once and for all that what happens in Vagus does not stay in Vagus. That’s Vagus, the nerve, which is the best instrument for shifting your body from “fight, flight or freeze” mode to “rest and digest.” So you can find the ease and inner calm that brings you into the current moment. All in 3-minutes. So you can stop listening—and start practicing. Listen to the Podcast Download l Listen in new window   Welcome to 3-minute Thursday. This week I introduce a way to bring more ease into your day. The practice is called Two Feet, Five Breaths. It takes one minute and requires no equipment. All you need is a place to sit and some form of breathing apparatus. (I recommend the lungs.) The other great thing about this practice? You prove once and for all that what happens in Vagus does not stay in Vagus. That’s Vagus, the nerve, which is the best instrument for shifting your body from “fight, flight or freeze” mode to “rest and digest.” So you can find the ease and inner calm that brings you into the current moment. All in 3-minutes. So you can stop listening—and start practicing. Listen to the Podcast Download l Listen in new window  

Teresa Woodland spent three decades working and living in China during its extraordinary economic and cultural transformation. Now back in the United States, she joins me to discuss what the West can learn from China. We discuss the Chinese ability to learn while sprinting, the virtues of systems thinking and embrace of paradox, how to have a light touch with “back-of-mind” stakeholders, conversations for exploring disappointments, why it’s unwise to “wait until things so down”, and how she wins the right to be on a journey with companies. Highlights * 8:30 Why the Chinese chew on western models of adult development, but don’t swallow them whole * 18:00 The talent story in China beneath the economic and policy headlines * 26:00 Western action learning works—but is there an even more pragmatic way to learn? * 31:00 Lessons from adopting a child and working with an orphanage * 37:00 Creating light touches sooner with “back-of-mind” stakeholders * 46:00 A Chinese company that looks ahead even while it’s sprinting * 52:00 Teresa always starts with the business issues and intersperses the learning in between * 57:00 Getting grounded by cuddling with your kids Listen to the Podcast Read the Transcript You can download a complete, word-for-word transcript of this episode here. Explore Additional Resources * Teresa Woodland’s company, WuDeLan Partners   Teresa Woodland spent three decades working and living in China during its extraordinary economic and cultural transformation. Now back in the United States, she joins me to discuss what the West can learn from China. We discuss the Chinese ability to learn while sprinting, the virtues of systems thinking and embrace of paradox, how to have a light touch with “back-of-mind” stakeholders, conversations for exploring disappointments, why it’s unwise to “wait until things so down”, and how she wins the right to be on a journey with companies. Highlights * 8:30 Why the Chinese chew on western models of adult development, but don’t swallow them whole * 18:00 The talent story in China beneath the economic and policy headlines * 26:00 Western action learning works—but is there an even more pragmatic way to learn? * 31:00 Lessons from adopting a child and working with an orphanage * 37:00 Creating light touches sooner with “back-of-mind” stakeholders * 46:00 A Chinese company that looks ahead even while it’s sprinting * 52:00 Teresa always starts with the business issues and intersperses the learning in between * 57:00 Getting grounded by cuddling with your kids Listen to the Podcast Read the Transcript You can download a complete, word-for-word transcript of this episode here. Explore Additional Resources * Teresa Woodland’s company, WuDeLan Partners