On this "Best of Swarfcast" episode, Noah speaks with Rich Gaffney, Vice President of Commercial Operations at Sentry Equipment, a 100-year-old manufacturing company in Wisconsin that has been employee owned since 1986.

While his nine-year-old son was fighting stage three cancer, Nick Stevens was driving around buying up scrap tungsten carbide just to keep food on the table. It worked well enough that one day, sitting in the hospital room, his son said to him: “Dad, why don’t you just start your own business and be your own boss?” Today Nick and his cousin Joey run JC Metals, going around the country paying cash on the spot for the carbide piling up in shops. And they refuse to sell a pound of it overseas even when buyers offer them more money to do it. Listen on your favorite podcast app using pod.link.     .   View the podcast at the bottom of this post or on our YouTube Channel. Follow us on Social and never miss an update! Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/swarfcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/swarfcast/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/todays-machining-world X: https://twitter.com/tmwswarfblog ************* Link to Graff-Pinkert’s Acquisitions and Sales promotion! Main Points While You Wait, the Price Moves Carbide tooling has gotten expensive. Between the tariffs and China restricting exports, prices have been swinging all over the place. Every machine shop has scrap carbide sitting around, worn inserts and chipped end mills that are useless for precision work but still worth real money as raw material. A lot of shops don’t realize how much. Nick says he walks into places with piles of carbide they’re practically throwing away, not knowing it’s worth $40,000 or $50,000. JC Metals buys it and sells it to a private US processor, one that recently received what Nick describes as an $11 million government grant to buy up as much domestic carbide as possible and keep it in American manufacturing. The major toolmakers all have their own buyback programs too. Kennametal, Sandvik, Seco. They work, but the model is the same: ship your material out and wait on a check for 15 to 30 days. With prices moving the way they are, the number you agreed to when you shipped is not the same number when the check clears. JC Metals shows up with their own scales, weighs everything in front of you, and pays you that day. Cash, wire, Zelle, ACH, whatever you want. The Geopolitics of Scrap China controls about 85 percent of the world’s tungsten carbide supply and has been cutting off exports. Foreign buyers have been approaching American shops directly, offering 30 to 40 percent more per pound to ship the material back overseas. Nick says he outbid one of those buyers last month, knowing he would lose money doing it, because he didn’t want the material leaving the country. Tungsten carbide is a core component of armor-piercing ammunition, from rifle rounds to tank rounds. It’s also used in nuclear weapons casing. Until this interview I knew tungsten carbide was a big deal for manufacturers. I had no idea about the national security ramifications. Changing the Scrapper Stigma My great grandfather was in the scrap metal business. One reason my grandfather went into used machinery instead was that he found the scrap business unsavory, manipulating scales, shady deals. When we had a warehouse it wasn’t uncommon for scrappers to pull up in a truck and steal from Graff-Pinkert. Nick and Joey bring their own scales so there’s no question about the weight. The company name, JC Metals, stands for Jesus Christ Metals, a nod to the faith that carried them through Jack’s illness. Jack Stevens, Nick’s son, is ten months cancer free. Question: What do you do with your scrap carbide?

Pat Parnell went to buy a classic car for his wife. He ended up buying a company too. Rain Gear Wiper Systems, the only hidden wiper system company for classic cars in the world. After 42 years hauling and installing high-end appliances, his body was done with the heavy lifting. Within a few weeks of stumbling onto this business, he cashed in part of his life savings to buy it. Now at 64, he calls running the business relaxing. He’s shipping wiper kits worldwide for 90 different classic cars, and currently building out a machine shop to make everything in-house. Listen on your favorite podcast app using pod.link.     .   View the podcast at the bottom of this post or on our YouTube Channel. Follow us on Social and never miss an update! Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/swarfcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/swarfcast/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/todays-machining-world X: https://twitter.com/tmwswarfblog ************* Link to Graff-Pinkert’s Acquisitions and Sales promotion! ************* Main Points Hidden in Plain Sight Rain Gear makes hidden wiper kits for classic cars. The systems remove the factory wiper motor from the firewall and tuck it into the vehicle’s airbox or underneath the dash. Cleaner firewall, more room under the dash, and a more reliable system than what came stock on a 1957 Chevy. That last part matters. Original wiper systems on classic cars were often cable-driven and unreliable. This isn’t just about looks. People actually drive these cars in the rain. Pat ships kits to customers as far as Australia. Over 90 SKUs covering everything from C1 Corvettes to Tri-Five Chevys, Ford and Chevy trucks, and 1964-1968 Mustangs. Kits run from around $500 to $800 depending on the vehicle. The Only One in the World Pat says Rain Gear has no competition. He spent 42 years competing in the appliance installation business. Now he’s in a category of one. When customers need a wiper system for a car Rain Gear doesn’t have a kit for, they provide dimensions and Pat works with them to find the closest fit. Rain Gear Wiper Systems Wiper Kit Two Weeks Pat was looking to buy a 1965 Mustang fastback for his wife. The seller mentioned he’d only purchased the car to design a wiper system for it, and that he was also selling the company. Within two weeks Pat bought Rain Gear Wiper Systems in November 2024. His philosophy on purchasing: do the research upfront, know what you want, and when the right thing appears, don’t hesitate. “It’s always the first one. It’s not the second one, not the third one. It’s always the first one you should buy.” His wife puts it differently: “You’re bending over picking up pennies while the dollars are flying over your head.” The Founder is Still at It The original engineer, Tom Jensen, a Vietnam veteran, designed the systems and sold the company to Pat. He didn’t walk away. Jensen emailed Pat recently saying he was heading to the junkyard to buy parts to design a new kit for a 1973-1987 Chevy square body truck. Pat already has customers waiting for it. The pipeline is open. Building a Shop When Pat bought Rain Gear all parts were outsourced. He’s bringing production in-house. He’s already purchased a fiber laser, is looking for a 32mm CNC Swiss machine, and is adding a CNC brake and a high-end compressor, around five to six machines total. His brother-in-law, who installs industrial robotics professionally, is helping with setup, and a programmer he knows will handle the CAD files and machine programming remotely. Pat’s reasoning: spending $200,000 on equipment that generates revenue long-term beats spending the same on parts sitting on a shelf. One Business Fading, One Growing Pat still has two employees running the appliance installation business. The plan isn’t a hard cutoff. Rain Gear has to outgrow it first, and then he’ll let the appliance side fade naturally. He’s managed over 20 employees, multiple trucks, and two warehouses before. The organizational side doesn’t intimidate him. He’s done it.

Today’s podcast is about mentorship, finding it, and paying it back. Logan McGhan is an old friend of mine from the used machinery business who is now a CNC programmer at a semiconductor company in Arizona. Along the way he’s had invaluable mentors in martial arts, machining, and sales, and one of his main purposes in life is to pay it forward. He mentors young machinists at his shop. He trains people in martial arts for free. He even rehabilitates mean dogs. Listen on your favorite podcast app using pod.link.     .   View the podcast at the bottom of this post or on our YouTube Channel. Follow us on Social and never miss an update! Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/swarfcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/swarfcast/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/todays-machining-world X: https://twitter.com/tmwswarfblog ************* Link to Graff-Pinkert’s Acquisitions and Sales promotion! ************* Interview Highlights Where It Started Logan grew up watching his father, a tool and die maker, work on an engine lathe and Bridgeport mill in the garage. People would bring him parts to fix for companies like Motorola and Intel, and his dad would figure it out. When Logan was five, his father hired a Korean martial arts master named John Kil Kang, a former presidential bodyguard who fled South Korea during a coup. Logan trained under him for ten years. It set a standard for discipline that never left him. Mentors Who Left a Mark In his twenties, Logan found coaching from two older aerospace programmers with about 40 years of combined experience. One of them, Alexander Hamilton Curtis, died of pancreatic cancer at 63. The last thing he told Logan was: “Don’t ever become a legend in your own mind.” Logan says he still thinks about it at least once a week. There was also a trade school professor who, in front of 27 classmates, told Logan that if he didn’t take a computer class he was an “effin idiot.” Logan was embarrassed enough to sign up. He credits that moment for everything that followed in his career. The Long Road Back After years as a five-axis programmer, Logan suffered a serious head injury in a car accident and never told anyone at work. He pushed through, but the cognitive load of high-level programming eventually caught up with him. He pivoted to machinery dealing, even hiring a sales coach on his own dime for $6,000. When COVID hit and commissions dried up, a longtime client called and asked if he could still program. Logan said yes, spent three weeks learning new software until midnight every night, and clawed his way back. Paying It Forward Today Logan mentors young programmers in their twenties at his shop, including trade school recruits he helped bring on himself. He has spent years training a friend in martial arts at four in the morning, for free, meeting him at a park because he figured if the guy didn’t show up at 4am he wasn’t worth working with. He also took the time to help me last week when I asked for advice on selling used equipment. Question: What mentor or coach had a profound impact on your life? What did they teach you that stuck?

Have you ever wondered what it takes to manufacture luxury watches that cost tens of thousands of dollars? This is the episode to find out! Last week I reconnected with Josh Shapiro to tell him about a used Willemin 408MT Graff-Pinkert had for sale. He told me that he was extremely excited for his new line of watches coming out that he has been working on for years. He is finally going to be producing the entire movement in his watches. Please have a listen to one of our most popular interviews on the show! Our guest on the podcast today is a machinist, entrepreneur, and master craftsman. Josh Shapiro is the owner and founder of JN Shapiro Watches, one of the few high-end luxury wristwatch makers in the United States. His latest line of watches will be priced at $70,000 dollars and up. His operation uses the most state of the art CNC Swiss and turn mills, as well as manual turning technology developed as far back as the 1500s! Listen to the podcast or read the highlights to learn how Josh is producing watches like nobody else has in United States for last 50 years. You can also view the podcast in video form on our YouTube Channel.     Highlights from the Interview Noah Graff: First, explain your company, JN Shapiro. Josh Shapiro: We make high-end luxury wristwatches. We’re one of the very, very few companies in the United States that manufacture watches. We started out just making the faces of the watches. Our expertise is with something called Guilloche, which is doing engraved geometric shapes on the faces of watches, and that’s done using non-motorized, very old school machines. They’re really special. From there we moved on to making our own cases. Now we are very close to having our first prototype completely in-house movement done.   Graff: How much do the watches cost? The price was $30,000 to $40,000 depending on the case material. The new series that we’re going to launch soon is $70,000 up to about $85,000, depending on material and customization. JN Shapiro Watch So they’re very expensive, but we put in about 400 to 500 hours on each timepiece. So much time goes into making each one of those watches.   Graff: How did you get into watchmaking? Shapiro: I just had a love of old things, so I ended up becoming a history major and then becoming a teacher. I walked into a local watch store here in Los Angeles called Feldmar when I was about 25, and just fell in love with watches. One of the first watches I saw was a Skeleton Chronograph watch. There was just so much going on there. It was so fascinating to me. Watches are mechanical. Watches are a really beautiful thing. It’s wearable jewelry that’s functional. It’s fascinating how the gear train flows together. How the escapement functions, the pendulum, just the whole interplay of all the pieces. While I was a teacher and principal, I was doing watchmaking as a hobby. Then around 2015, I purchased a really nice set of Guilloche, or engine turning machines, and that allowed me to do professional level work. I started producing watch faces, watch styles for other watchmakers, and started thinking in the back of my head of launching my own brand. Around 2018, I launched my first series, and that’s when I started really reducing my role as a principal, until finally leaving completely two years ago.   Graff: Explain engine turning Shapiro: The concept is there are cams made out of bronze on the spindle of the machine, and those cams are rocking against the stop. As the spindle is turning, it’s creating these geometric patterns. Then you can phase the cam, independent of the workpiece, and you can create these really beautiful geometric shapes. It’s an old art. Engine turning machines have been around since the time that lathes came into existence, around 1500. I have a number of them. The first one I bought, I scraped together every cent I had to afford it. Then, then I ended up selling that set of machines and buying another set of machines. The second set of machines cost me around $30,000. I didn’t have that much money, so I had to sell my 67 Mustang Fastback to afford it.   Graff: How many staff do you employ for making the watches? Shapiro: It’s me plus seven. I’ve taught everyone in the company how to do engine turning. I have one trained CNC machinist. I have another watchmaker who is turned into a CNC machinist. I have three other watchmakers who are doing various watchmaking tasks and manual machining tasks. I have one person who’s a trained jeweler, who has pursued a whole career in hand engraving, and one admin. So everyone has a really great skillset and really enjoys making things.   Graff: Tell me about the various machines in your shop. Shapiro: My first big CNC machine, which we still have, is a Haas office mill. That’s actually a great watchmaking machine, and there’s a lot of people in Switzerland that have these Haas office mills because they’re really, really accurate. Then we got a Hardinge, HLV, which is like the premier tool room lathe. And then we picked up the, the (Citizen) L20 from you that was to practice on before we got our new shiny L12, which is getting here Wednesday. The big machine that we got this year was a Kern Evo. Kern makes the most accurate milling machines on the planet. It’s a sub-micron machine. We can’t measure sub-micron here in our shop, but it’s nice to know that we’re working with the machine that accurate, that precise. It’s the first Kern Evo used for watchmaking in the US, which is really exciting.   JN Shapiro Watch Parts Graff: Explain the watch movement Shapiro: A movement is the guts of a mechanical watch. It’s everything inside of it, just like a car engine and transmission. There are some [watch] brands in the United States that do cases and dials, and some purchase everything from Switzerland. They’re just designed in the United States, like Shinola watches. You know they’re importing a good chunk of all their stuff. They got in trouble with the FTC for saying it was American made. Slowly more is being done here. Our watch that we’re working on is the first time since the sixties that all the parts, all the little parts, everything are made in the United States. The old series, the Infinity series, that we sold out on, we were making the case, the hands and the dial. So not the movement of the watch. That was according to plan. I did the Infinity Series to have the funding to grow the company enough to be able to make the movement. Some people make the mistake of trying to do the movement, which is the most difficult thing, right off the bat. And if it’s not a critical success, then they’re out of business. Graff: Why do people buy expensive watches? Shapiro: I guess the best example is if you look at the car world. You can buy a Toyota or Honda, and it’ll get you from point A to B, and you can also buy McLaren and it’ll get you from point A to B. From the outside observer, they say, okay, the McLaren looks cooler and rich people buy it. But then you get into the engine. You know the car goes fast—very, very fast. There’s a ton of engineering that goes into the car to make it be able to do that. The quality of the parts that are in the car are produced at a much higher level than in a car that’s mass produced. It’s the same thing for a watch. It tells the time, but the quality and time that we put into each and every one of the parts is astronomic. [A watch] is something that’ll last hundreds of years. It’s a piece of art, and it’s functional art that you can wear on your wrist. Art is the spice of life. It’s not something that’s necessary for you to eat, or live. But it’s what makes our civilization special beyond just being a toy for wealthy people. When someone sees a work of art it’s inspiring, and that’s what we do with our watches. They’re more than just time telling devices. Question: What is your favorite watch?

I met Tim Betts a few weeks ago when he was shopping for a Willemin mill-turn we had for sale. One conversation in and I knew he had to come on Swarfcast. Tim told me he’s in the drugs business, the guns business, and horse racing, and that actually makes him one of the most heavily regulated businessmen in America. Seriously, he’s a compounding pharmacist, he machines precision rifle parts, and he manufactures race bikes for harness racing around the world. And he’s all in on every one of them. Listen on your favorite podcast app using pod.link.     .   View the podcast at the bottom of this post or on our YouTube Channel. Follow us on Social and never miss an update! Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/swarfcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/swarfcast/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/todays-machining-world Twitter: https://twitter.com/tmwswarfblog ************* Link to Graff-Pinkert’s Acquisitions and Sales promotion! ************* Interview Highlights Guns Tim co-owns Procision Arms with his partner Jason, who runs the shop while Tim runs the office. They spotted a real gap in the market. Small and mid-sized gun builders were getting squeezed by venture capital firms buying up precision rifle component manufacturers, jacking up prices and cutting margins. Tim and Jason built their processes from the ground up to fill that void. Today they’re a full OEM shop producing parts to aerospace tolerances for bolt action hunting rifles. Five-axis machining, horizontal mills, EDM, serious work. Drugs Tim has a doctorate in pharmacy and works for a compounding pharmacy in southeastern Pennsylvania. Compounding means making custom medications that either don’t exist commercially or have been abandoned by drug companies as unprofitable. The work is intensely creative. If a child or animal won’t take a pill, you find another way. Tim’s team once made antibiotics for a rhino who happened to love Rice Krispie treats, so they baked the dose into a full 9×9 pan. They’ve also embedded pills into fish to medicate penguins. It’s a business tightly regulated by the FDA and more manufacturing than most people realize. Horses Tim and his brothers grew up in harness racing. Both of their grandfathers trained horses and his brother is a full-time trainer today. Tim also owns a company that manufactures the sulkies, the two-wheeled race bikes the horses pull. They ship them to the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Europe, and South America. It’s a genuinely global manufacturing business inside a niche sport most people have never thought about. When Worlds Collide, Good Things Happen At first glance, these three worlds have nothing to do with each other. But the overlaps keep showing up. Veterinarians, some of Tim’s core pharmacy customers, turn out to be disproportionately into hunting and shooting, so pharmacy relationships open firearms doors. He met a major firearms customer through the horse world. And the problem-solving mindset carries across all three. As Tim puts it, the trial and error in pharmacy looks a lot like dialing in a new tool path in the shop. “This carrier didn’t really work at the pH it has to be at, so we have to try a different carrier. It’s a lot of the same type of things from a production standpoint.” His wife says she never knows when he takes a phone call at seven in the evening whether it’s going to be about horses, guns, machining, or pharmacy. Tim just shrugs. “Never a dull moment.”

Sometimes I feel like I’m a good leader. I think I’ve always believed at least that I could be. The insecure statement comes from my conventional view of leading–taking charge to mobilize other people in our businesses, or as a dad or as a thought leader. But my podcast guest Ryan Avery, gave me a new view of what it means to be a leader. Something more universal and applicable to my whole life. He says the key to being a leader in any facet of your life is to go from being “A” to “THE.” I get to be THE podcaster. I am THE dad. THE machinery dealer. THE leader. For him, leadership is influencing others by connecting with them, rather than merely persuading. THE puts you in the clear confident frame of mind that enables you to thrive in your goals and causes others to gravitate to you. Listen on your favorite podcast app using pod.link.     .   View the podcast at the bottom of this post or on our YouTube Channel. Follow us on Social and never miss an update! Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/swarfcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/swarfcast/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/todays-machining-world Twitter: https://twitter.com/tmwswarfblog ************* Link to Graff-Pinkert’s Acquisitions and Sales promotion! ************* Main Points A leader convinces. THE leader connects No matter the culture, people don’t like to be convinced, but when someone connects with them, they gravitate toward that person naturally. Ryan says anyone can sell anything, anyone can motivate people. The difference is how you do it. When you lead through connection rather than persuasion, you feel good about what you’re putting out there and so does the person on the other side. You’re already in leadership Ryan defines leadership simply as anyone who influences someone. So there’s no need to want to be a leader. You already are. Whether it’s mobilizing a team, raising a kid, or convincing someone to put a little more chicken on your burrito without charging you extra. You’re influencing people constantly. Leadership isn’t a destination you reach one day. You’re already in it. The only question is what and who you want to influence. Step forward Moving your body forward tells your biology it’s okay to approach. You speak a little louder, smile more, engage better with eye contact. Moving backward does the opposite. It signals retreat, confusion, and puts you in a position of less power. The concept is called embodied cognition. A few months ago, Ryan had me demonstrate it in front of a room at the PMPA conference. Same words, two different directions. I felt the difference instantly. In our interview when I recounted the story, even just imagining myself moving backward and then forward changed how I felt. Stop saying “just” and “I think” These words shrink what you’re about to say before you’ve even said it. They signal uncertainty before you’ve given anyone a reason to doubt you. Cut them and notice how different you sound and feel. Turn questions into statements “How am I going to grow this business?” becomes “I’m growing this business.” Statements direct you toward action. Questions keep you in your head. Most of the time you don’t need to think more. You need to do more. Change your inner dialogue Ryan studies psycholinguistics, how the words we use shape the thoughts we have and determine the actions we take. The shift from A to THE starts inside your head. It’s not about being perfect or being the best. He points out that Gandhi wasn’t perfect. But Gandhi was THE leader for millions of people. Your THE doesn’t require perfection. It just requires showing up as the fullest version of yourself in whatever it is you do.

“God, I am so NOT relaxed right now. But I need to just embrace what I read recently — you need the courage to be rubbish. Just relax, stop worrying about everything being perfect, and do it.” I said that to my dad, Lloyd, as we sat down to record our podcast last week–which turned out to be the opposite of rubbish. We spoke our minds. What it means to live in the gain versus the gap, Lloyd’s honest relationship with pessimism and age, and why we both keep showing up to do this work. Oh, and our latest feelings about the Cubs. Listen on your favorite podcast app using pod.link.     .   View the podcast at the bottom of this post or on our YouTube Channel. Follow us on Social and never miss an update! Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/swarfcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/swarfcast/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/todays-machining-world Twitter: https://twitter.com/tmwswarfblog ************* Link to Graff-Pinkert’s Acquisitions and Sales promotion! ************* Episode Transcript Noah: God, I am so NOT relaxed right now. But I need to just embrace what I read recently — you need the courage to be rubbish. Just relax, stop worrying about everything being perfect, and do it. So that’s what we’re going to do today. Lloyd: I will attempt not to be total rubbish. Just partial rubbish. Noah: You don’t want to try to be rubbish — you want to feel okay with being rubbish. Are you okay with being rubbish? Lloyd: It’s difficult to accept. What I really want to be able to say is: today has been a good day. I struggle with that sometimes. Noah: I’m glad to hear that, because you came in an hour ago kind of like me, unsettled. Do you feel grateful today? Lloyd: I do. I feel grateful for having this day. Noah: I just finished listening to this book about gratitude, 30 days, a different angle each day. The one I listened to this morning: be grateful for moments before they happen, not after. Thank the world for this unforeseen, magnificent thing that’s about to happen, even if it seems mundane. So today on my commute, I said: thank you for the magnificent thing that’s going to happen while I’m sending out quotes to customers. Lloyd: I’m grateful to be here with you, passing ideas back and forth, disagreeing, trying to come up with something provocative and useful. Noah: You wanted to talk about why you’re still in the machinery business at 81. Why are you? Lloyd: The question I ask myself every day is: why am I so damn obsessed about age? About being 81. How did I get to live to be 81, and am I still any good at what I’m pretending to do every day? Noah: That’s BS. You’re not pretending anything. Lloyd: There is an aspect of what I’m fighting against: my negativity and pessimism. A leader beset by negativity doesn’t do a good job. I fear my fear about how the business is going to do is self-defeating. Noah: What’s interesting is that business has been so rough for many months, and yet you keep getting right back up. Not complaining. Finding optimism in the next thing. To me, that makes you an amazing optimist. Lloyd: Depends on the day. Every day in business you get hit with problems, with disappointment in others, in yourself. The hard part, and it gets worse as you get older, is staying buoyant. Knowing the next day could be better. Noah: And that’s where the courage to be rubbish comes in. Just push through. Noah: I woke up this morning feeling kind of yucky too. A deal isn’t working, I’m questioning my purpose. But here’s what I do: every night before bed, I write down my wins for the day. 99% of the time, there’s something genuinely positive, a good call with a customer, time with family, learning something new. And every day I write down one serendipitous thing that happened. When you name it, things have more meaning. Lloyd: (on age 81) Some days I think: Lloyd, you’re so fortunate. This is 18 years of gravy after a heart attack, enjoy each day. And other days I think: 81, I’m almost out of days, and that’s depressing precisely because I’m enjoying each one. I don’t want to be out. Noah: That’s living in the gap versus the gain right there. Lloyd: Explain the “Gap in the Gain” concept. Noah: Great book. Highly recommend it. It’s by Dan Sullivan and Benjamin Hardy. The idea: high achievers set ideals, “I want to be rich, I want to be happy,” and they never feel like they’ve arrived because the ideal keeps moving. That’s living in the gap. But if you actually define what a win looks like and document when you win, you start living in the gain. It totally changes your mindset. It’s why it’s powerful to look back at the end of the day before you sleep, and Sullivan even suggests writing down a win for the next day before it’s happened. Lloyd: Write down what you’ve won when you haven’t experienced it yet? Noah: I know, mysterious. I almost never do it. But it ties back to being grateful in advance. I think it puts you in the right frame of mind. Lloyd: I don’t write it, but I imagine it. And giving thanks usually puts me in the right frame of mind to go to sleep. Lloyd: Let’s talk about why we do these podcasts. Why do I write the blog? Noah: The Graff-Pinkert Times, the granddaddy of Today’s Machining World. Was it ever really about business? Lloyd: Honestly? It was a showcase for my writing. Ego gratification, and to brand the company, give it an image of quality and originality. But the underlying reason was as a showcase for my creativity, using the machinery business as a vehicle. Noah: You have a master’s in journalism from Michigan. You wrote for the Michigan Daily. You did it partly because it’s fun. Lloyd: That’s right. And it still is fun. To create something original that nobody has ever done before, and see it published. It’s still a thrill. Noah: I feel like it fills a hole in me, a sense of purpose. I want it to leave its mark. You want something different: you want somebody to actually reach out and say it affected them. Lloyd: I want the dopamine. But I also believe the things I write have sufficient merit that people should read them and get value. The piece I wrote yesterday about my wife Risa’s headache coaching program, I spent a lot of time on it, felt good about it. Then I looked and there were no comments. Did anybody read this? Did anybody care? Noah: We really need to put likes back on the website. Lloyd: But I do believe that somebody in Arizona is going to read that, or tell someone in Boise about it, and they’re going to say: my mother desperately needs this. Noah: Let’s finish on a high note. We’re both very enthusiastic about the Cubs this year. Cade Horton, the phenom everyone was so high on, got hurt after one game and they announced Tommy John surgery, out for the season. The team had been four and six, tight, underperforming. And then the day they announce the surgery, everybody just comes out loose. They win nine to two, then six to two, sixteen hits in the first game. I believe that was serendipity, a jolt that made people play grateful, play loose. What do you think? Lloyd: Let me tell you my true honest belief about my beloved Chicago Cubs. Noah: Mm-hmm. Lloyd: I believe every day, they will lose. Noah: (laughing) Really. Lloyd: Therefore, every victory is a gift, a wonderful upset. Noah: I think when they win, everything’s right with the world. When they lose, eh, it’s just a game. I’m going to think about something else. I think you’re messing around here. Lloyd: I’m telling you the truth. Noah: I think this podcast itself was a little serendipitous. We always say we’re going to do more episodes together. We only end up doing one or two a year. Today I didn’t have anyone else to interview. And we both started out kind of eh, and I think we’re ready to go kick some butt. Lloyd: Let’s do it.   Question: What’s your move when you wake up feeling rubbish?

On today’s podcast, I’m talking with Mike Payne, owner of Hill Manufacturing and Fabrication in Broken Arrow, Oklahoma, to peek inside the mind of a prolific acquirer of manufacturing companies. Before purchasing Hill in 2018, Mike spent 20 years in M&A, orchestrating over 100 deals across nearly every industry. Since then, Mike has acquired four machine shops, and he’s constantly scouting for more opportunities to expand. What struck me about Mike isn’t just his deal-making successes – it’s his genuine passion for manufacturing. While some people get caught up in the game of acquisition deals, Mike seems to remain committed to his stated purpose, making quality parts and building lasting companies. *********** Listen on your favorite podcast app using pod.link.        View the podcast at the bottom of this post or on our YouTube Channel Follow us on Social and never miss an update! Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/swarfcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/swarfcast/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/todays-machining-world Twitter: https://twitter.com/tmwswarfblog ************* Link to Graff-Pinkert’s Acquisitions and Sales promotion! ************* Main Points Working in the M&A Industry Mike Payne’s career began in the mid-1990s when he graduated from the University of Tulsa with a computer science degree. He started a software company specializing in shop floor data collection, working with manufacturers during the era when Walmart was pushing barcode implementation. This early exposure to manufacturing sparked his interest in seeing how things were made, from tires to fishing reels. After successfully growing and selling his software company in 2003, Payne transitioned into private equity, where he spent 15 years buying companies across various industries. What set him apart in the M&A space was his approach: rather than just completing deals and moving on, he would typically take board positions or operational roles in the acquired companies to ensure their success. He completed over 100 deals during this period, attributing some of his success to being an outsider who asked “dumb questions” that often led to valuable insights.   Purchasing Hill Manufacturing and Fabrication In 2018, Payne purchased Hill Manufacturing and Fabrication, a company he’d known for 30 years. The company, established in 1976, had become “tired” under an owner looking to sell, with minimal reinvestment in equipment and growth. Payne saw this as an opportunity to revitalize a solid business. Since his acquisition, the company has doubled in size through both organic growth and the acquisition of four additional shops. What distinguishes Payne’s approach to business is his complex motivation. While he openly acknowledges his desire to make money (“I’m a capitalist”), he emphasizes that his greater satisfaction comes from creating opportunities for others. At 51, he could coast or even retire, but he continues growing his business because he enjoys developing his team and seeing them succeed. He shares examples like watching a 27-year-old manager building his first home and starting a family. Payne also maintains strong relationships with the previous owners of companies he’s acquired. He shared a story about receiving a photo from a couple whose shop he bought in 2022. While he was at IMTS viewing the latest manufacturing technology, they sent him a picture from their retirement travels of an old lathe in an Arizona campground. This exemplified his goal of not just making profitable deals, but helping owners successfully transition into their next life phase. Philosophy of Business Growth The conversation also touched on the philosophy of business growth. While Payne acknowledges that maintaining a steady, non-growing business can be viable, he believes companies need to at least stay current with technology and market demands to avoid slow decline. He shared an example of a recent acquisition target that had gradually declined from $2 million to $1.2 million in annual revenue because they weren’t reinvesting or replacing lost customers. Throughout the interview, Payne’s enthusiasm for manufacturing shines through. He describes the satisfaction of seeing raw materials transformed into finished products and particularly enjoys giving shop tours to people unfamiliar with manufacturing, as their fascination helps him see the magic of manufacturing through fresh eyes. He compared this to hiking with his daughter, who helps him notice beautiful details he might otherwise miss in his rush to reach the destination. The discussion reveals Payne as someone who has successfully merged the analytical skills of a private equity investor with a genuine passion for manufacturing and people development, creating a business approach that values both profitability and purpose. Questions: If you were to acquire a manufacturing company, what would you be looking for? What would it take for you to sell your manufacturing company? Check out Mike Payne’s  podcast, Buy the Numbers. The blog was assisted by Claud.ai

I often ponder—why do some people own and build companies, while most people are destined to spend their careers as employees. In Part II of my interview with Mike Payne, owner of Hill Manufacturing & Fabrication, we explore this question. Mike comes from a family of six generations of teachers, not business managers or entrepreneurs, and he says he was a “mess” in high school without direction. There’s no question that he’s smart and ambitious, but there are lots of people out there with those qualities, and only a small handful of them acquire and grow manufacturing companies. I enjoyed pushing Mike to analyze how and why he does what he does, and I think he enjoyed being pushed. Spoiler alert, it goes a lot deeper than just making a bunch of money and being your own boss. *********** Listen on your favorite podcast app using pod.link.        View the podcast at the bottom of this post or on our YouTube Channel Follow us on Social and never miss an update! Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/swarfcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/swarfcast/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/todays-machining-world Twitter: https://twitter.com/tmwswarfblog ************* Link to Graff-Pinkert’s Acquisitions and Sales promotion! ************* Interview Highlights Do the Richest People Work Less? Noah Graff: Many people in the world work incredibly hard, but the richest people aren’t necessarily the ones working the hardest. What is it about entrepreneurs and successful company owners who can replace themselves that makes them different? Mike Payne: I’ll start with a slight disagreement. You said the richest people don’t work the hardest. I don’t totally disagree, but let me use one example that challenges that—Elon Musk. He’s the richest person in the world, and I’d venture to say he works harder than anybody. Noah: A lot of the richest people don’t work as hard as somebody in India digging a ditch, or somebody working three jobs. It depends what you mean by work. Mike: As a society, we think this way. My own team sees me drive a nice truck and go on trips, and they think, “I’m working harder than he is.” In many ways, they are—physically for sure. This is true of most successful people. And I want to distinguish between business owners and successful business owners, because there are many business owners in the world. If I put myself in the category of someone who works hard and is “successful,” I still get up and go to work every day. But my favorite line, which I read a couple years ago, is perfect here: “The best thing about owning your own company is you get to choose which 80 hours a week you work.” I’m not stuck on someone else’s schedule. I get to do it whenever I want, but I have to do it. Why Mike is a Company Owner Noah: Let’s go back to the hardest question—why are there certain people like you who just naturally take charge? Mike: I have a sense of purpose that’s bigger than me. When we talked about creating opportunities for my people, that’s my purpose. Yes, I want to buy companies, make money, do good deals, but a lot of that purpose is to create opportunities for other people. Your purpose could be a lot of things, but with a purpose, you automatically do more. You’ve got to care about something. I can see it with everybody we hire in the shop. If they have a purpose in their life, they’re a better employee than the ones who see it just as a means to get a paycheck on Friday. Noah: Do you think your parents did something to make you have this mentality? Mike: No, I can’t point to that. My dad’s side of the family is six generations of educators. Mom’s side was farmers, blue-collar labor workers. I didn’t have that “I’m gonna follow in the footsteps” thing at all. But in all honesty, I don’t know that I can even really take credit for it. All I ever did was just work. I work hard. I’m not the smartest person in the world, I’m definitely not the best looking, but I do work hard and I always worked hard. When I got myself in binds, financially or otherwise, the only thing I ever knew to do was work harder. How his Wife Changed Mike’s Life Noah: Can you recall a big serendipitous moment in your life? Mike: My wife and I went to the same high school. I was two years older. We both went to the University of Tulsa. We knew each other, had mutual friend circles, but weren’t close. I was a mess in high school. I didn’t have a lot of direction in life. When I think about me then versus me now, I’m like, how does that journey even add up? How does that guy become this guy? I was finishing my sophomore year of college, she’s coming in as a freshman. I see her at the bar and say, “Hey, I know you, we went to high school together.” It takes me like two months to convince her to go on a date with me because she’s so well-grounded that all she knew was the me from high school. She’s like, “I’m not dating that guy. He’s a mess.” From that point forward, I had to prove myself. I had to convince this woman that I had changed and that I had purpose in life. Quite honestly, I would still tell you today that I out-kicked my coverage. Question: Why do you own your company, or why would you want to own a company?