Jon Marshall and Piotr Woronkowicz are industrial designers and partners at Pentagram. Jon, who joined in 2018, fuses product design with strategy, packaging, digital, and physical environments. Piotr, who joined in 2025, works across products, packaging, furniture, interiors, and environments. In this conversation, Jarrett talks with Jon and Piotr about the role of industrial design in Pentagram and their interest in raising the discipline’s profile, all while trying to make sense of what it means to be an industrial designer today. Links from this episode are available at scratchingthesurface.fm/294-jon-marshall-piotr-woronkowicz. — You can support our work by joining our Substack. Paying members get bonus content each month and annual subscribers will receive at 50% off coupon for any of Jarrett's books.

Jarrett’s new book Graphic Designers After Graphic Design was just published by Princeton Architectural Press! The book, which features interviews, profiles, and case studies of emerging and mid-career graphic designers working in non-traditional practices, makes the case for aa new, expansive understanding of graphic design. To talk about the book, Draw Down’s Kathleen Sleboda turns the tables and interviews Jarrett about the ideas behind the book, the writing and design process, and the generational argument that emerges from the collection. Links from this episode are available at scratchingthesurface.fm/293-graphic-designers-after-graphic-design. — You can buy a copy of Graphic Designers After Graphic Design wherever books are sold, including Draw Down, where your book will include a signed bookplate. — You can support our work by joining our Substack. Paying members get bonus content each month and annual subscribers will receive at 50% off coupon for any of Jarrett's books.

Will Hunter is an Adjunct Instructor and Executive in Residence at New York University in the Schack Institute of Real Estate where he is leading the Building Better Cities Collaborative, a two-semester fellowship that brings mid-career professionals across disciplines to help cities be more sustainable, equitable, and prosperous. Before this, he was the founder and chief executive of the London School of Architecture, a fully-accredited alternative model for architecture education. In this conversation, Jarrett and Will talk about the origins of the LSA and the architectural environment it was responding to, how new models of education and can create new models of practice, and how design can find new ways to work with other disciplines. Links from this episode can be found at scratchingthesurface.fm/292-will-hunter —— Support the show and sign up for our newsletter at surfacepodcast.substack.com

Rathna Ramanathan is the Provost of Central Saint Martins and the Executive Dean, Global Affairs at the University of the Arts London. Over the last few years, Rathna has led a complete restructuring of CSM, creating a new model to think about art and design education. Trained as a graphic designer, her research focuses on publishing and intercultrual communication and she previously served as Dean of the School of Communication at the Royal College of Art. In this conversation, Jarrett and Rathna talk about the new CSM structure and how its “Schools of Thought” model flips our understanding of disciplinary study, the influence of graphic design on her work, and why art and design education needs to change to reflect this current moment. Links from this episode can be found at scratchingthesurface.fm/291-rathna-ramanathan —— Support the show and sign up for our newsletter at surfacepodcast.substack.com

We're taking the summer off and rebroadcasting some of our favorite episodes in the archives over the next few months. Today we're rebroadcasting our 2019 episode with writer Kurt Andersen, who's new novel, The Breakup, is out this week! — Kurt Andersen is a writer, radio host, and journalist. He's the author of novels True Believers, Heyday, and Turn of the Century, and has written for film, television, and stage. He was the host and co-creator of arts and culture radio show Studio 360, co-founder of Spy Magazine, and is author of Fantasyland: How America Went Haywire. Oh, he was also the design critic at Time for eight years. In this episode, Jarrett and Kurt talk about how he started writing about design, how design is a constant theme that runs through all of his, and why Fantasyland might be a book about design. Links from this episode can be found at: https://scratchingthesurface.fm/post/183578516030/115-kurt-andersen — We're continuing to publish new content on our Substack. Paid subscribers get bonus interviews every month. Sign up and support the show here: surfacepodcast.substack.com

We're taking the summer off and rebroadcasting some of our favorite episodes in the archives over the next few months. Today we're rebroadcasting our 2022 episode with Nicole Killian, who was just named Assistant Professor and Assistant Director of Graduate Studies in Graphic Design at Yale School of Art. — Nicole Killian is a graphic designer and educator whose work spans design, publishing, video, and installation. They are currently co-director of the Design, Visual Communications MFA and associate professor of graphic design at Virginia Commonwealth University. In this conversation, Jarrett and Nicole talk about studying at the Bauhaus and Cranbrook, how institutions can become more experimental, and what it means to queer design education. Links from this episode can be found at: scratchingthesurface.fm/213-nicole-killian — We're continuing to publish new content on our Substack. Paid subscribers get bonus interviews every month. Sign up and support the show here: surfacepodcast.substack.com

We're taking the summer off and rebroadcasting some of our favorite episodes in the archives over the next few months. Today we're rebroadcasting our 2021 episode with Willo Perron, who was named Wallpaper's 2026 Designer of the Year. We'll be back with new episodes in September. — Willo Perron is a designer, creative director, and partner of Perron-Roettinger (now Perron Studios) whose work spans branding, interiors, and live performance. Willo has designed stage sets, packaging, and marketing material for artists like Kanye West, JAY-Z, St. Vincent, and Rihanna as well as branding and retail design for Adidas, Yeezy, and American Apparel. In this episode, Jarrett and Willo talk about the term ‘creative director’, his self-education in design, and the overlap between retail spaces and live performance. Links from this episode can be found at: scratchingthesurface.fm/187-willo-perron — We're continuing to publish new content on our Substack. Paid subscribers get bonus interviews every month. Sign up and support the show here: surfacepodcast.substack.com

We're taking the summer off and rebroadcasting some of our favorite episodes in the archives over the next few months. Today we're rebroadcasting our 2018 episode with Mindy Sue, who has a new book, A Sexual History of the Internet, out now.. We'll be back with new episodes in September. — Mindy Seu is a designer, educator, and researcher. When she was on the show, she was student at the Harvard Graduate School of Design and was previously a designer at 2x4 and MoMA. She’s designed and produced archival sites for Ralph Ginzburg and Herb Lubalin’s Eros and Avant Garde magazines. In this episode, Mindy and I talk about her early career and why she decided to go to graduate school, the role of research and archives in her work, and how graphic design is just one pillar of her practice. Links from this episode can be found at: https://scratchingthesurface.fm/post/176253243375/85-mindy-seu — We're continuing to publish new content on our Substack. Paid subscribers get bonus interviews every month. Sign up and support the show here: surfacepodcast.substack.com

We're taking the summer off and rebroadcasting some of our favorite episodes in the archives over the next few months. Today we're rebroadcasting our 2024 episode with Nicholas de Monchaux, who was recently appointed the new dean at UC Berkeley's College of Environmental Design. We'll be back with new episodes in September! — Nicholas de Monchaux is an architect, designer, and author. He is currently Professor and Head of Architecture at MIT. He is the author of Spacesuit: Fashioning Apollo and Local Code: 3,659 Proposals about Data, Design, and the Nature of Cities. Until 2020, he was Professor of Architecture and Urban Design and Chair in New Media at UC Berkeley. In this conversation, Jarrett and Nicholas talk about reframing our definitions of design, what a contemporary architecture education could look like, and building a multidisciplinary practice. Links from this episode can be found at: https://scratchingthesurface.fm/243-nicholas-de-monchaux — We're continuing to publish new content on our Substack. Paid subscribers get bonus interviews every month. Sign up and support the show here: surfacepodcast.substack.com

We're taking the summer off and rebroadcasting some of our favorite episodes in the archives over the next few months. First up is our 2017 conversation with Pentagram partner Abbott Miller! We'll be back with new episodes in September! — Abbott Miller is a designer, writer, and a partner at Pentagram where he leads a team designing identities, exhibitions, and books. Before Pentagram, Abbott ran a studio, Design Writing Research, with Ellen Lupton and wrote for publications like Eye, Print, and I.D. A monograph of his design and writing, called Design and Content, was published in 2014. In this conversation, Abbott and I talk about where his interest in critical theory came from and how he’s worked to incorporate it into his design work, using writing to find new ways into design, and how his various interests have come together in his current work designing exhibitions at Pentagram. Links from this episode can be found at: https://scratchingthesurface.fm/post/161266191870/30-abbott-miller — We're continuing to publish new content on our Substack. Paid subscribers get bonus interviews every month. Sign up and support the show here: surfacepodcast.substack.com