Summary Matt Markins and Mike Handler open with a 2014 Awana research finding that keeps Matt awake: asked how carefully they evaluate and track the impact of their children’s ministry, leaders averaged 2.99 on a five-point scale. A collective shrug. Mike’s analogy is the car with no fuel gauge and no temperature reading, driving toward a failure point it cannot see coming. The hosts frame the problem using 4DX language of lead and lag measures, or drivers and outcomes. Lasting faith at 37, 47, 80 years old is the lag measure. Nobody in ministry gets to read that gauge. So the question becomes which drivers plausibly shape it, given that worldview largely settles by age 13. Their answer is the belong, believe, become framework. Belong is relational: is every child named, noticed, known, greeted by a specific adult with multiple touchpoints? Believe is scriptural: is Scripture read weekly, sung, memorized, spoken creedally, held as a physical book rather than a screen? Become is experiential: is there silence and stillness in a high-energy room, practiced prayer, service, drama, parents equipped for bullying and cultural pressure? Each church identifies its own top three to five markers per sphere, tracks them week to week, and notices when one quietly drops out. Mike closes with Carl Trueman’s medieval cathedral builders, men who broke ground knowing they would never see the roof. The blueprint, Matt adds, is the point. Faithfulness without visible fruit is still faithfulness with a plan. Show Notes Most children’s ministries cannot tell you if what they’re doing is working. Awana’s research puts the self-assessment at 2.99 out of 5. Matt Markins and Mike Handler take on the hardest problem in child discipleship: the outcome we care about most, lasting faith in adulthood, is one most of us will never live to measure. In this episode The 2014 data point that still keeps Matt up at night Lead vs. lag measures, borrowed from Chris McChesney’s The Four Disciplines of Execution Why age 13, not 18, is the real deadline Belong: named, noticed, known, and what that looks like operationally Believe: the irreducible minimum of weekly Scripture engagement Become: creating stillness inside a high-energy room “Every system is perfectly designed to produce the results it gets” Carl Trueman on medieval cathedral builders, and why blueprints matter more than timelines Referenced in this episode The Faith of Our Children The Four Disciplines of Execution, Chris McChesney Appleton Alliance Church Child Discipleship Forum childdiscipleship.com The post Effective Child Discipleship: Looking at Outcomes Rather Than Just Activities appeared first on Child Discipleship.

Episode Summary In this episode, Matt Markins and Mike Handler take on a frustration nearly every children’s ministry leader knows: parents aren’t using the resources the church hands them. Their diagnosis is that this isn’t a resource problem or even an implementation problem. It’s a culture problem. Most American homes, including church-attending homes, are shaped by cultures of achievement, sports, screens, or convenience, and discipleship gets rejected like a cartridge that doesn’t fit the system. Handing parents another plan won’t fix that. As Mike’s childhood story of receiving train set accessories without the train set illustrates, resources without vision are just spare parts nobody knows what to do with. The conversation then walks through the first two of four spheres from the Forming Faith pathway that help parents cultivate a culture of discipleship at home. Vision asks parents to picture their child at 40 and name the values and convictions they hope that adult holds, because a family without a clear vision will absorb one from the surrounding culture. Time and place is about deliberateness: owning the calendar before it owns you, establishing intentional rhythms like shared meals, and using organic ones like car rides, seasons, and even a child’s disappointment after a failed audition as moments to talk about God. The episode also touches on language (dialogue over monologue, drawn from Deuteronomy 6) and community (every child needs a team of five caring adults), and lands on the line Matt calls his most important of the season: the shortest pathway to Jesus for a child is always through the parent. In This Episode Why the American home, even the Christian one, defaults to achievement, sports, screen, or convenience culture, and why discipleship gets rejected by those systems Culture eats strategy for breakfast: why you can’t out-plan a bad home culture The four spheres of the Forming Faith pathway: vision, time and place, language, and community, and how they map onto Belong, Believe, Become Vision: five questions to ask parents about who their child will be at 40 Mike’s train set story, and why resources without vision are just spare parts Time and place: intentional rhythms vs. organic rhythms, and owning your calendar before it owns you Redeeming the car ride, the waiting room, and the disappointment of not getting the part Language: dialogue over monologue, and the story of Katie discipling a newborn with a leaf Community: the 5-to-1 principle from Kara Powell’s Sticky Faith, and the ministry leader’s role as a connector of adults around each child The research: only 12% of parents use church-provided resources most of the time The line of the season: “The shortest pathway to Jesus for a child is always through the parent” Resources Mentioned Forming Faith (the Formational Home chapter) Sticky Faith by Kara Powell The post Creating a Culture of Discipleship in the Home appeared first on Child Discipleship.

Episode Summary In this episode, Mike Handler sits down with Sam Luce to challenge a default assumption in children’s ministry: that a kids or youth pastor’s primary job is to disciple the kids in the room. Sam argues the more faithful and sustainable calling is to disciple the people who disciple kids, namely volunteer leaders and parents. Drawing on his years at Redeemer Church, where his kids ministry tripled in size with no added staff budget, he explains how he treated volunteers as staff, wrote job descriptions that gave them a clear picture of what winning looked like, and used the short windows before and after service to train and encourage leaders instead of scheduling separate meetings nobody would attend. The conversation then turns to parents, where Sam pushes past the familiar “parents are primary” line to unpack the second half of Deuteronomy 6, the stones of remembrance set up outside the home as a communal witness to God’s rescue. He argues discipleship was never meant to be a solo home responsibility handed off with a curriculum; it’s a partnership, and ministry leaders are called to actively disciple parents through small groups, prayer gatherings, or a simple text photo of their child worshiping. Sam and Mike close by urging listeners not to be paralyzed by the size of the task: one job description, one conversation, one parent connection at a time. Show Notes Sam’s reframe: your primary job as a children’s or youth ministry leader is not to disciple kids, it’s to disciple the people who disciple kids. Two groups to disciple: the volunteer leaders on your team, and the parents in your congregation. How Sam led through explosive growth at Redeemer with no staff budget by treating volunteers as staff and writing job descriptions for them. Using the natural windows before, between, and after services to train and encourage leaders instead of adding a separate meeting. Why job descriptions matter: clear expectations, a realistic picture of what to expect, and one sentence that defines what winning looks like. The practice of praying for one person a week rather than trying to reach everyone at once. A story about texting a mom a photo of her son worshiping, and why that small gesture is discipleship. Giving up what you like (teaching the Bible story yourself) for what you love (multiplying disciple-makers). Deuteronomy 6 revisited: the well-known “parents are primary” passage, and the often-skipped second half about the stones of remembrance and the role of the community. Practical on-ramps for discipling parents: men’s groups, moms’ groups, prayer gatherings, coffee, or a simple play date. Elizabeth Elliot’s line on doing the next thing God puts in front of you, and why starting small beats staying paralyzed. The post Discipling the Disciplers: Why Your Job Isn’t Just the Kids appeared first on Child Discipleship.

Episode Summary In this episode of the Child Discipleship Podcast, Matt Markins and Mike Handler tackle one of the most persistent tensions in children’s ministry: who is primarily responsible for discipling kids? Using two imagined gatherings, a late-night circle of kids pastors on the East Coast and a multi-generational family dinner in La Jolla, they surface a striking gap from Awana’s 2022 research with the Barna Group. Roughly 95% of kids pastors say the home is responsible, while parents and congregants split nearly 50/50. Matt and Mike call this the “church-home stalemate”: two agents of formation who genuinely value each other but remain stuck, with leaders declaring responsibility to parents who often feel unequipped and unsure how to actually do the work. The hosts argue that the way out is a shift from declaration to dialogue. Walking through Deuteronomy 6, they frame discipleship as ordinary, relational conversation woven into daily life rather than seminary-level instruction. The practical pivot, they contend, is how kids pastors spend their time: recalendaring away from weekend prep and administration toward relational investment in parents. Matt illustrates this with a candid personal story about “declaring” a cross-country move to his wife instead of walking with her through it, drawing a parallel to how leaders often tell parents they’re responsible without ever showing them how. They close with a scalable “wave pool” model of parent equipping, from simply learning parents’ names at pickup to a full four-week discipleship course, plus mid-range ideas like parent meetups, think-tank teams, iterative testing groups, and mentor families. Show Notes The two gatherings: A contrast between kids pastors who emphatically declare parents responsible and families who are still working the question out in conversation. The research: From the 2022 “Children’s Ministry in a New Reality” project with Awana and Barna, ~95% of kids pastors point to the home, while parents and congregants land near 50/50. The church-home stalemate: Two agents of formation who respect each other but stay stuck, waiting for the other to move. Declaration vs. dialogue: Telling parents they’re responsible isn’t the same as equipping them relationally. Deuteronomy 6: Discipleship as everyday, mundane conversation, when you sit, walk, lie down, and rise. Time is the lever: Breaking the stalemate starts with recalendaring ministry time toward parents. The wave-pool model: A spectrum of equipping options from learning names at pickup to a four-week parenting course. Mid-range ideas: Annual parent meetings, quarterly meetups, family barbecues, think-tank teams, iterative testing groups, and mentor families. Compassion over answers: Come alongside parents rather than arrive with a finger pointed and a checklist. The post Defining the Discipleship Stalemate appeared first on Child Discipleship.

Summary This episode of the Child Discipleship Podcast centers on a confession before it becomes a lesson: Matt Markins openly admits he spent years treating prayer as a management failure — something you turned to when leadership wasn’t enough. That honesty drives the whole conversation. Both hosts work through how children’s ministry workers (and ministry leaders at every level) default to strategy, logistics, and human effort, then bolt prayer on as an afterthought. The corrective they’re arguing for isn’t a new technique — it’s a posture shift: prayer as the first, central, and last thing, not a transitional element between the “real” work. The second half gets practical without getting shallow. They discuss what it looks like to model prayer for kids rather than just perform it, the difference between contending prayer and rote request-taking, the “God spotting” practice for helping children notice divine activity in their lives, and a striking story from Appleton Alliance Church where praying over popsicle sticks with children’s first names on them preceded unchurched kids actually showing up. They also discuss the book Lead with Prayer and close with the honest admission that no leader — no matter how gifted — is going to strategize their way to lasting faith in today’s children. Show Notes Episode Title: Prayer First, Central, and Last — Making Prayer the Foundation of Your Children’s Ministry Hosts: Matt Markins & Mike Handler What We Cover: Why ministry leaders default to strategy over prayer — and how to recognize that pattern in yourself Matt’s honest confession about how he operated at Awana for years before repenting of a leadership-first posture The difference between utilitarian prayer (Hail Mary, last resort) and contending prayer (appealing to God to do what only he can) What it means to “waste time with God” — and why that phrase is actually an invitation to intimacy Practical rhythms for weaving prayer into your personal morning, your team meetings, and your ministry week How to pray through Scripture when you don’t know where to start Inviting senior saints into your ministry through intercessory prayer Book recommendation: Lead with Prayer Practical Takeaways: Replace prayer request time with “how did God show up this week?” conversations with your kids Give your congregation something tangible to pray over — names, not abstraction. Start your morning in surrender before your brain is already three problems ahead Pray through a passage of Scripture when you don’t know how to begin The post Making Prayer the Foundation of Your Children’s Ministry appeared first on Child Discipleship.

Despite decades of effort since George Barna popularized the “parents as primary spiritual influence” framework in 2003, children’s ministry leaders still report that parents aren’t consistently discipling their kids at home. Awana’s 2022 research reveals why: it’s not a motivation problem on either side — it’s a structural one. Kids pastors spend the overwhelming majority of their time on administrative and logistical tasks, while parents consistently say no one has ever relationallyshown them how to disciple their children. The result is a stalemate: both parties want the same outcome but the ministry operating system isn’t built to produce it. The practical solution isn’t an overhaul — it’s a calendar shift. Matt Markins argues that children’s ministry leaders should block two to four hours per week for relational parent engagement, but do it six to twelve months in advance, before the calendar fills with urgent tasks. Start with two or three families already doing it well, build from there iteratively, and eventually integrate parent-equipping as a standing program — like a new members class, but for discipling your own kids. The goal isn’t perfection or scale from day one; it’s moving from zero relational investment to something consistent and repeatable. Show Notes What You’ll Learn: Why the church-home partnership is stuck in a stalemate — and what the data actually shows How children’s ministry leaders really spend their time (hint: mostly admin) What parents say is the #1 reason they don’t disciple their kids at home The one calendar move that makes relational parent ministry actually sustainable How to start small — whether you lead a church of 50 or 5,000 Research Referenced: Transforming Children into Spiritual Champions — George Barna (2003) Faith of Our Children: Eight Timely Research Insights for the Next Generation — D6 (2022) Forming Faith — Moody Publishers Quotable: “Parents aren’t saying they don’t want to do this. They’re saying no one has ever shown them how.” Action Step: Open your calendar right now. Find a week six months from now. Block two to three hours for relational parent engagement. Don’t wait until next month. The post Creating Parent Partnerships appeared first on Child Discipleship.

On this special Father’s Day episode, co-hosts Matt Markins and Mike Handler explore the complicated emotions the holiday can stir up and the redemptive opportunity it presents for dads. Matt shares the origin story of his new children’s book, Daddy, How Much Do You Love Me? (New Growth Press) — a journey that began with processing his own painful relationship with his father in his mid-thirties, and a Josh McDowell story from a Focus on the Family broadcast in which Josh told his young son Sean, at a packed college football stadium, that he loved him more than all those people put together. That moment of fatherly expression stayed with Matt for over a decade before sparking the idea for a book that helps dads connect relationally with their kids. The conversation digs into the book’s intentionally singular purpose: not a parenting seminar, but a beautifully illustrated story that follows a father and son through ordinary and epic moments alike — playing ball, visiting dad’s workplace, camping under the stars — all answering the question every child is silently asking: “Am I lovable?” Matt closes by drawing on the parable of the prodigal son, identifying three marks of the father in Jesus’ story that earthly dads can embody: being present (accessible, phones down, there in the mundane), patient (letting kids fall and welcoming them back without anger), and pursuing (going out to our children, whether they’re the rebellious son or the self-righteous one). Ultimately, the book points both child and parent toward the love of the heavenly Father. Show Notes In This Episode: Why Father’s Day is “like sitting on a fence” — and the redeeming side of a complicated holiday The “rocket fuel” of a painful past: how Matt processed his relationship with his own father The Josh McDowell stadium story that planted the seed for the book Why a book should do one thing well — not be a Swiss Army knife How ordinary moments (ice cream, walks, ballgames) answer a child’s deepest question: “Am I lovable?” The three Ps from the prodigal son’s father: Present, Patient, Pursuing Pointing our kids beyond ourselves to the love of their heavenly Father Resources Mentioned: Daddy, How Much Do You Love Me? by Matt Markins (New Growth Press) — available wherever books are sold  Forming Faith by Matt Markins & Mike Handler  The post The Love of The Father appeared first on Child Discipleship.

Episode Summary In this episode of the Child Discipleship Podcast, host Mike Handler sits down with Sam Luce, director of ChildDiscipleship.com, to discuss a provocative question at the heart of children’s ministry: have we traded authentic discipleship for polished production? Sam unpacks a chapter he contributed to Forming Faith, arguing that many churches have fallen into what he calls the “Disney ditch” — prioritizing engaging environments, theming, and performance to the point that kids have a great experience but never actually encounter Jesus. He’s quick to clarify he’s not calling for a joyless, overly serious ministry, but rather for leaders to examine the motivation beneath the methods, asking whether excellence is serving discipleship or quietly replacing it. “Excellence is a by-product of relational accountability over time.” — Sam Luce The conversation moves into deeply practical territory, exploring how an obsession with polished production can actually rob kids of formative opportunities. Sam and Mike discuss how welcoming children into imperfect, real acts of service — running a soundboard, setting up chairs, even preaching a rough first message — is itself a discipleship pathway. Drawing on the example of Peter and the parable of the talents, both speakers make the case that failure, when held within a relational and gospel-centered environment, is not a liability but a feature. The goal, Sam insists, is not a factory producing excellent widgets, but a family forming disciples — which is slower, messier, and ultimately far more faithful. Show Notes Guest: Sam Luce, Director of ChildDiscipleship.com and veteran children’s ministry leader with nearly 30 years at one church Key Topics Covered Sam’s chapter in Forming Faith and the core argument behind it The “Disney ditch” vs. the “Mr. Rogers ditch” — understanding both extremes Why safety, fun, and relational connection are not opposites of gospel clarity How the seeker-sensitive movement got at least one thing right The danger of building ministry around metrics of attendance rather than Christlikeness Why excellence-at-all-costs cuts kids out of the very process that forms them Peter, Paul, Barnabas, and John Mark as case studies in formative failure Practical ways to welcome kids (and volunteers) into authentic, imperfect service How leaders identify and name God-given gifts in the children they shepherd The fruit of the Spirit as a more faithful measure of ministry effectiveness than production quality Resources Mentioned Forming Faith (chapter by Sam Luce) ChildDiscipleship.com Dallas Willard (referenced regarding natural Christlikeness) Reflection Questions for Ministry Leaders Is your ministry currently leaning toward the Disney ditch or the Mr. Rogers ditch — and what would it look like to course-correct? What metrics are you using to measure ministry health? Are they measuring attendance or Christlikeness? Are there kids or volunteers in your ministry who have never been given the opportunity to fail — and therefore never truly given the opportunity to grow? Who in your ministry do you know well enough to name their God-given gifts and invite them into service? The post Excellence and Experience appeared first on Child Discipleship.

Episode Summary In this episode of the Child Discipleship Podcast, Matt Markins and Mike Handler explore the tension between relevance and relationship in children’s ministry. They argue that while relevance — being culturally connected and contextually appropriate — has its place, the church has often over-invested in making ministry “cool” or Disney-like, chasing a shifting target that yields little evidence of producing lasting faith. Drawing on Brett McCracken’s Hipster Christianityand insights from Mark Sayers, they make the case that cool Christianity is ultimately an exercise in futility — sowing the seeds of its own obsolescence when it becomes the primary driver of ministry methodology. The real accelerant for child discipleship, they contend, is relationship. Citing Barna Group research from Children’s Ministry in a New Reality, they highlight that only about 40% of children in U.S. churches have a meaningful relationship with a caring adult outside their parents — yet those who do show dramatically higher rates of Bible engagement, gospel understanding, and church belonging. Supported further by Harvard research on resilience in children who experienced trauma, Matt and Mike conclude that loving, consistent adult relationships are the core conduit to thriving faith — and that the church’s future map of child discipleship must weight relationship far above relevance. Show Notes The difference between universal relevance (language, culture) and fleeting relevance (trends, aesthetics) The “make church like Disney” trend that emerged around 2010 — its good motivations and its shadow side The concept of contextualization vs. enculturation: the gospel can be contextualized into culture without the church simply becoming the culture Brett McCracken’s warning: cool Christianity risks shrinking faith to the level of a consumer commodity The principle: what you win them with is what you win them to Barna Group data from Children’s Ministry in a New Reality: only ~40% of children in U.S. churches have a meaningful relationship with a caring adult at their church — and those who do show dramatically stronger faith outcomes across every measured category Harvard Center for the Developing Child research: the single unifying variable among children who thrived after trauma was consistent access to a loving, caring adult The call to shift ministry investment from protection and entertainment to protection and formation Resources Mentioned Forming Faith: Discipling the Next Generation in a Post-Christian Culture — Matt Markins & Mike Handler Hipster Christianity: When Church and Cool Collide — Brett McCracken (2010) Children’s Ministry in a New Reality — Barna Group & Awana John Tyson — referenced from Child Discipleship Forum 2025  Mark Sayers — Pastor, Red Church, Melbourne, Australia Child Discipleship Forum (CDF) — gatherings at the crossroads of children, church, and culture | gospelkids.org (2026 in-person sold out; online available) Key Takeaway Relevance is a tool in the ministry toolbelt — not the foundation. There is no substitute for authentic relationship. When a child is seen, known, and connected to a loving adult, they are connected to the Jesus who sees, knows, and loves them too. The post Relevance and Relationship appeared first on Child Discipleship.

Summary In this episode, Matt Markins and Mike Handler discuss the role of fun and entertainment in children’s ministry. They are careful to say that fun is good and necessary. Kids should laugh, enjoy church, and want to come back. But the episode asks whether children’s ministry has sometimes made fun the main measure of success rather than discipleship. Matt traces part of this tendency to the church growth movement and attractional models of ministry. In that framework, churches often removed barriers so people would come, stay, and return. That influenced children’s ministry, where entertainment became a common way to attract families and keep kids engaged. The concern is not that fun is wrong, but that fun can become overemphasized when the deeper goal should be lasting faith in Jesus. The episode contrasts entertainment with engagement. Entertainment puts something in front of children. Engagement invites children into discipleship. Mike gives practical examples, such as small group confession, helping kids learn how to talk about sin and forgiveness, and giving children opportunities to serve, greet, pass out supplies, run tech, or help younger kids. These practices move kids from being passive spectators to active participants. The main takeaway is that children rise to the level of expectation placed before them. If churches expect little more than attendance and enjoyment, kids may learn that church is mainly about having fun. But if churches invite them into meaningful participation, service, confession, Scripture, and gospel-centered community, they begin to see church as a place where they are formed as disciples of Jesus. Practical Next Steps Audit your children’s ministry. Ask how much of the weekly experience is built around entertainment and how much is built around engagement, formation, Scripture, prayer, service, and gospel response. Change the parent pickup question. Instead of only asking, “Did you have fun?” encourage parents to ask: – “What did you learn about Jesus today?” – “What is one thing you heard?” – “What is one thing that stood out to you?” – “How did you see someone serve today?” Invite kids to serve. Give children age-appropriate roles such as greeting, helping with supplies, welcoming new kids, reading Scripture, assisting with tech, or helping younger children. Create space for real spiritual formation. In small groups, help children learn how to talk about sin, forgiveness, prayer, and following Jesus in everyday life. Aim for formation, not perfection. Let kids participate even when it is messy. Jesus formed His disciples by inviting them into the work, not by keeping them on the sidelines. The post “Are We (Only) Having Fun?” appeared first on Child Discipleship.