139 Play Forever with Dr. Kevin Stone: Healing, Longevity & the Future of Joint Health Surf Mastery Podcast Download What if the key to recovering from injury and surfing well into your 80s isn’t resting more… but learning how to “play” better?Orthopedic surgeon and sports medicine pioneer Dr. Kevin Stone explains why movement, balance, community, and even fun itself may be some of the most important ingredients in healing. From biologic joint repair and stem-cell science to the psychology of staying present in the water, this conversation explores how athletes can come back stronger instead of slowly breaking down.In this episode, you’ll discover:Why turning fitness into “play” instead of “work” can dramatically improve your consistency, mindset, and long-term health.The cutting-edge advancements in biologic joint repair, PRP therapies, robotic surgery, and recovery techniques that are helping athletes avoid unnecessary surgeries and heal faster.How balance, presence, and mental focus reduce injuries, and why distraction may be one of the biggest hidden causes of wipeouts and breakdowns as we age.Press play now to learn how to recover smarter, stay active longer, and keep doing the sport you love for the rest of your life.https://www.stoneclinic.comPlay Forever Book:https://a.co/d/06sF8zYm Michael Frampton: , Dr. Kevin Stone, welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. Thank you so much for coming on board. You're welcome. So you have a book, and it's called Play Forever.The subtitle is How to Recover from Injury and Thrive. Now, I do want to get into the title of the book, because it plays nicely into surfing, I think, because surfing is often seen as a sport. I personally think it's a sport for very few. Most of us surfers surf recreationally and for fun, and my philosophy is surfing is far closer to music than it is a sport.So therefore, what do we do with an instrument? We play an instrument. So I'm always preaching to people, "Hey, we've got to go play surf." We don't go surfing for s- for a sport per se, unless you're a competitive athlete. So I like the title of your book for that reason, but my first question would be is what was the inspiration to write the book in the first place?Dr Kevin. Stone: Well, lotsof them. First of all, I'm an orthopedic surgeon here in San Francisco, and so, and I see athletes from all over the world, lots of surfers, lots of skiers, lots of other athletes at all ages. , And one of the things we like to do is try to encourage people to use their injury as an excuse to come back fitter, faster, and stronger than they've been in years.And so if they're gonna do that, it means they've gotta have the mindset to, exercise every day, to treat themselves like a pro athlete would, to line up all their resources, fitness coach, nutrition, psychological time- , and play time. And, , and so in order to do that, you've gotta really enjoy what you're doing.You gotta enjoy the activities to be fit and to be fitter than you've ever been in years. And the only way you do that is if they're fun. And so we find that people will do things that are fun, and they tend not to do things that are not fun. So we try to encourage people to stop working out. Okay. We want them to play out.And if it's playing, whether it's with weights, whether it's climbing a mountain, whether it's on a surfboard, you're gonna do it more, you're gonna enjoy it, you're gonna get the benefit from it. And if it's work, there is some negative things associated with that, and, and not all, not everything that we want to get out of the athlete, to get out of the injured person to help them come back better.Michael Frampton: I like that. That's a great philosophy. Can you give me an example?Dr Kevin. Stone: Sure. So you know that most people will do a sport if they do it socially. Most people do everything in life if they do it socially. You know, while surfing in general is seen, you know, as a loner sitting on a board, really it's a community on the water.It's a community on the beach. And if you're with your friends, if you're with your community, you're there more often, you're on the water more often. You, you don't see the weather or the conditions as a barrier be- as much, because it's just fun being with your friends. And so I think that's applies to almost everything else you do.If you're training for a sport, you're trying to build proprioception, muscle development skills, doing that with a partner, doing that with friends, doing that with a coach, doing that with a fitness instructor makes it so much more fun, makes it much more profitable in terms of how much gain you're gonna get out of it.So look at life and look at exercise and look at sport as playtime. And if you can, you'll be enjoying it a- that much more. And that's why we want you to drop dead at age 100 playing the sport you love.Michael Frampton: Yeah, okay. So if you've, you've got a really bad injury, and let's say to the point where you can't play golf and you have to go to a physiotherapist, you might be more inclined to choose a physical therapist who is a bit more fun than someone who's a bit more clinical.Dr Kevin. Stone: Well, let me give you an example of that. So that physical therapist or that fitness coach, if they put a golf club in your hand during your rehab time, and you work on your putting, you're gonna have a lot more fun there, no matter what your injury, than if they don't. And so our job in- In orthopedic surgery and fitness training and helping people come back is how to understand what makes that person happy, what goals are meaningful for them physically, activity-wise, and be very creative about helping them spend much of their time in that space.Michael Frampton: Yeah, I like that way of thinking. W- would you say that this book... W- would a physical therapist, learn some creative principles like the one you just mentioned to apply to their therapy from this book?Dr Kevin. Stone: Yes.Michael Frampton: Is, is it written for everyone or is it written for clinicians?Dr Kevin. Stone: It's written for everyone. Yeah? Yeah. It's written for everyone. And, and it, it's really, uh, my effort at describing a philosophy in life of how you approach many things, mostly injury-related and recovery-related, but there's a number of other things thrown in there too in terms of meaning of life and, and how to get the most out of it.What are, you know, how we view living a playful, fun, rewarding life, and how you use things that you otherwise would think as setbacks and turn them in your favor.Michael Frampton: Let's go into the title, Play Forever. What's your definition of the word play?Dr Kevin. Stone: Having fun at what you're doing. Nice and simple. And forever?So that you drop dead playing the sport you love.Michael Frampton: Love it. Everyone listening to this show wants to surf for as long as they can. You're talking to the right audience here. What's the worst thing we can do to sort of think the opposite way?Dr Kevin. Stone: Well, if you turn fitness into work, which is why, you know, that we kind of avoid the word working out, uh, you, you take away some of the, as I said, the fun part of the, of being fit, of being healthy, of being positive, of, of enjoying life. So that's one thing. Number two, you know, the most common reason I see athletes injured is a mental error.So you almost always know that you were going a little too fast, you did a move you shouldn't do, uh, you caught a wave in a position you probably shouldn't have been in. Every surfer I ever ask gets tumbled and injured. You know, "Did you know? What was your sort of thinking about before it happened?"Almost always say, "You know, I sort of knew I was off position. I was off on the wave. I was just in the wrong spot. I just sort of knew before it happened." And that's usually distraction. And so if you can leave your cellphone at home, you can leave thoughts about your girlfriend, your boyfriend, your life, your work, if you can be in the moment of what you're doing, your likelihood of getting injured goes down tremendously.If you're not in the moment, if your mind isn't in the game, if you're thinking about something else, you very commonly end up in my office. Mm-hmm. And my job is to help you not do that.Michael Frampton: Which brings us back to play, 'cause if you were playing, you would be in the moment. So if movement is medicine, and part of your philosophy is the tissue can be, , preserved, which we'll get into, but, , then why are so many aging athletes, especially surfers, why are they breaking down?Dr Kevin. Stone: It's a, there's lots of reasons why we're breaking down as we're all getting older. But, uh, as you know, you're generally losing muscle and bone as you age. And unfortunately, many people have been told to, they've had a total knee or they've had some other surgery or they've had arthritis, and they've been go- told to go home and rest their body parts so they don't wear it out, some verbiage like that.And we, for the last 35 years of my practice here in San Francisco, have been telling patients exactly the opposite. So if I replace their knee joint with a partial knee or a total, or a total knee replacement, we're telling them, "We want you to increase your exercise, increase your loading, increase your muscle development."And the reason is, as you age, you're losing muscle and bone. And so those components that we're putting in are more likely to come loose if you're not exercising and not building bone. So it's the opposite of the advice most people have given for a long time. And so in my entire practice, I've only seen one patient wear out their component from running.And so why have all these patients been told, "Don't go run on your partial or total knee replacement"? So we've been giving the opposite advice. We- you know, a lot of things have come into play to help us do that for athletes. Robotic surgery has made a huge difference. The getting rid of bone cement and total joint replacements has b- made a big difference.The ability to do partial knee replacements for so many athletes makes a huge difference because those knees feel more normal than does a total knee replacement. And the o- opportunity to do biologic joint replacement, where I put back a new meniscus, regrow the cartilage, replace the ligaments as necessary, you know, that's also been great for so many of our athletes who aren't anywhere near needing a partial or artificial joint replacement.Michael Frampton: Let's talk about knees for a bit. I'm, I can speak from personal experience. I had a ACL reconstruction on my right knee in 2001. It was done by a young surgeon. I tore that graft. It needed to be revisited in 2005. And now, last year, 20 years on, um, I have, you know, bone-on-bone osteoarthritis,what advice would you give to someone like me?Dr Kevin. Stone: So we like to give advice based on good data. That data means I need a physical exam, X-ray, MRI, if possible. For our patients who are outside of San Francisco, they often will send in their X-rays and MRI. We do that as a complimentary service. You go to stoneclinic.com/consult, and you can upload your X-ray or MRI.We can look at that and advise patients. So I like to give advice based on good data. Okay. However, I will tell you that 80% of patients who've been told that they need a total knee don't. And that's not just our own data. So they could either have a partial replacement or they could have a biologic replacement, replacing the meniscus or regrowing the cartilage.If they do need a total knee, then again, we're doing these robotically now, and that means that we can get rid of the bone cement, the key component that, that led to loosening from so many of the patients in the past. By getting rid of the bone cement, the body grows into the porous undersurface of the implant, so it becomes part of you.The only way you're gonna knock it loose is if you break your bone. So that's taken away all the concerns about letting people back to running and sport, hiking, and doing impact exercises. So in the things you described about your knee, I would ask you, "Look, send me an X-ray, send me a recent MRI. Get on the phone with me.Let me look at your X-rays and MRI and over a Zoom, and I can counsel you with pretty good, you know, advice about what you should do best." Of course, if I can get my hands on your knee and examine you, so come in and see me here, but if you can't do that, then we talk to you on the phone. Okay. That, that's, that sounds really interesting.Michael Frampton: Y- obviously you're on the, the cutting edge of s- things, The biologics, what's the, what's the future of that look like?Dr Kevin. Stone: So we're in what I call the anabolic era of sports medicine, which means that every time we repair something, repair a ligament, repair a meniscus, we're almost always adding anabolics, growth factors from PRP, your own blood, or birth tissues that have a high concentration of mesenchymal stem cells or other growth factors, and hyaluronic acid, the lubricant of the joint.So we're always potentiating our surgery if we have to do surgery, or our injuries for athletes who don't need surgery. We're adding these factors to augment or accelerate their healing response. Now, I'll give you a little short summary of what the status is of cells . So stem cells are pericytes.They live on the walls of vessels, and you sitting there have billions of stem cells within your body. Yes, when you were younger, you had more than you have as you age, but you still have billions of them or you wouldn't be talking to me. My job as a physician and scientist is if I'm gonna give you a therapy, the therapy needs to mobilize your billions of stem cells to that site of injury.So if you have a bruise, let's just say you, you hit your muscle on a, a step, and that bruise, the little bleeding into the body there sends out all these s- a siren call to all the stem cells in your body and says, "Hey, some come here," and direct the healing response. And that's the way nature works to first start with inflammation and then reorganization of the collagen tissues.So when we inject cells, which we don't focus on so much anymore, we're trying to-- because they tend to die or not be enough cells to really affect change. What we're trying to do is inject chemokines or factors that recruit your body's own stem cells to that site. Mm. We also inject PRP and lubricants because they have potent anti-inflammatory, anti-fibrotic, meaning anti-scarring, anabolic, meaning they stimulate the lining cells of your joint to produce more lubrication.And a- as I said, paragran effects or chemotactic effects, recruiting your body's own stem cells. So the science around- Augmenting healing or augmenting surgical procedures is accelerating rapidly now, and we're, we're part of doing research in that space and trying to figure out what's the best cocktail to give you as an athlete, uh, before surgery, to avoid surgery, or after surgery.And we- we're doing that quite a bit now in almost all of these injuries.Michael Frampton: Okay. For the listener who's listening, who's maybe suffering with some joint pain, it sounds, uh, if you go to your st- standard run-of-the-mill general practitioner, you get referred to a surgeon who wants to, you know, do whatever surgery they specialize in.That can be quite depressing, to put it bluntly. But you, and what you've just been saying here and looking at your website, is you're giving a lot of hope. Your belief in the body's natural, you know, to stimulate the body's natural ability to heal and, , to encourage us to play and keep moving.Dr Kevin. Stone: For sure.And in New Zealand as well as here, the fantastic part of this story is that you have access to excellent doctors and excellent scientists who are looking at trying to figure out how do they help athletes come back, uh, better than they were before, healing these tissues. And so even surgeons, you'd be surprised.You know, my goal is to keep people out of my operating room if I can, but if they have tissues that are broken, to repair those or replace them. We do lots of meniscus replacement here. Mm-hmm. That means when you tear your meniscus cartilage, if the surgeon can't repair it, if some of it has to be taken out, then we put them back in quite a bit, 'cause we've learned that when you lose the meniscus, you develop arthritis and pain.And if we can help you avoid that or treat it after you've already lost it, that's a big contribution to your knee. , So even though we're, we're biased towards repairing tissues that are broken as fast as we possibly can so that you don't suffer all the breakdown effects over time, we are also developing these skills of augmenting healing.And I'll give you an example. So in the past, for rotator cuff injuries in the shoulder, I treat shoulder, knee, and ankle injuries. So in the past, the rotator cuff tears that you hear so much about, we almost always would take them to surgery, uh, and repair them. And the problem was that about 30% of them would go on to fail, which is distressing to all of us.It turns out now that almost every rotator cuff injury that I see- We inject with a cocktail of growth factors and lubrication and other things, start them on a rehab program, and then repair them later on if their rehab and injections have not been good enough to get them back to doing everything they wanna do.And that's dramatically decreased our need to do shoulder surgery. And if I have to operate on them, uh, then I augment that surgical repair with this cocktail of things, trying to reduce that failure rate that we've seen in the past. And that's true in arthritic ankles. It's true in arthritic knees as well.We're trying first to help the patient buy time if they can, and if not, if I have to repair it, then we augment the repair.Michael Frampton: Where do you see the next five years go? Like, how, where- where's this heading?Dr Kevin. Stone: So if you'd asked that question a year or two ago about AI, you would've been way wrong.And if you asked that question about biologics and orthopedics and tissue repair, we'll probably be wrong as well. But we're excited about the work that we're doing. I have a public nonprofit research foundation as well, so we're looking at research on how do we make these injections work better? How do we get cartilage repair to work better?How do we do better surgical techniques? And we post all that, by the way. There's a public website called stoneresearch.org, and you can learn about these research programs. But I would tell you that I think that the injections will get better and better at recruiting your body's stem cells so that you will heal faster from the injuries that we're seeing.And so instead of all my athletes saying, "Hey, Doc, why does it take a year to come back from an ACL injury or an Achilles tendon rupture?" You know, I think we'll be accelerating that quite a bit, and we already are, but I think we'll do a much better job in the future.Michael Frampton: Hmm. So the body has this ability to, to heal itself.Why doesn't it? And why, why does it take something like an in- an injection of stimulants to get that going?Dr Kevin. Stone: Because normal collagen healing takes about 12 months. And so if you have an incision or a cut on your arm or your knee or, , and you look at the color of that incision, it's kind of red when it's first been repaired, and over the course of time, over the course of 12 months usually, that reddish tissue goes down to about your normal color of your skin.Sometimes not all the way, but that color change is collagen maturation. So it's taking the disorganized collagen fibers of scar, and it's remodeling them into oriented collagen fibers. And so that reorientation, that laying down of new collagen, uh, oriented, orienting it in the right form, is, can be augmented by an anabolic.That stimulates those cells to lay down new collagen or lay down more crosslinks or organize it faster. And so what we're doing is taking nature's own healing response mechanism and simply adding to it, adding a little stimulant to it so it goes a little bit faster. .Michael Frampton: Have you been inspired by any other books?Any other books that you can think that back up your, your, your philosophy of play and, and, and longevity?Dr Kevin. Stone: You know, not so much in that sense. , I think that, , I, I was influenced in my fellowship by a guy named Richard Steadman, who was a US Ski Team doc, and it helped me then care for the ski team as well. , And influenced by other physicians I saw early on.My dad was a physician, my granddad was a physician. So I think I've seen all my life the, , the ability to help people, and I've been inspired by the patients that we've helped who have all cheated. And what that means is that we told them, you know, "Use a brace, use a cast, use crutches," and they would come back in the office a month or two later carrying their device that they were supposed to be wearing.And so what happened was we learned from our athletes that many of our restrictions were too restrictive. And we learned what, where we could push, where we couldn't push. And so I think I've learned the most from my patients- , who took the advice I gave them and accelerated it. And I think those have been our best teachers.Michael Frampton: You mentioned your grandfather and your father were physicians as well. Were they also surgeons, or what inspired you to get into this particular field?Dr Kevin. Stone: They were not, but I injured my knee playing soccer for Harvard back in the, , late '70s, and, uh, the guy who repaired it was an orthopedic surgeon in the field house.And, I admired him caring for the athletes. And, I set up my practice here in San Francisco similar to that, where there's a training room. And so their rehab team and physical therapy folks are all right next door to our normal orthopedic clinical exam rooms, our MRI and X-ray. So everything's all in one space, one area, and we can walk around and see the athletes at every stage, both immediately before surgery, after surgery, and then in rehab and fitness training., And so I think that inspiration for helping people not just recover from surgery or from injury, but to come back better than they've been in years, came from seeing that environment, thinking about how I could optimize it.Michael Frampton: Hmm. Okay. So, and h- how's your knee nowadays?Dr Kevin. Stone: Good. I'm still skiing and windsurfing and surfing on the beach and doing all the things I love to do.Michael Frampton: Oh, that's good to hear. That's really good. Yeah. Yeah. , You mentioned, I've heard you talk about balance. How important is balance ?Dr Kevin. Stone: So proprioception, which is the, the brain-body connection between where you're landing and where your feet are or where your body is in space, and therefore whether or not you're balanced or not, , is a critical task that can easily be trained, and we tend to forget to train it.Yet it's so easy to train. Just standing on one leg on a pillow in your bedroom, you know, and just close your eyes and see how hard that is and see how good you are at it. It's the simplest way. For me, stand-up paddling, and for my patients, stand-up paddling is probably the funnest sport that we do for balance., I think just being on the board at every age, standing on a board on the water is something my 90-year-old patients can do and my younger patients can do, everybody in post-op rehab can do, many people can do. , So simple things like that are sportive, fun, playful, but are also- Building the thing that you tend to lose as you ageMichael Frampton: Hmm.Do- y- you mentioned you got quite a holistic clinic there. , Are you targeting balance specifically through neurological training there, or is it all play-based?Dr Kevin. Stone: Everything is integrated pretty well. , You can't return to sport unless you have a good sense of balance. And so, so many of the rehab exercises we're doing require it.Michael Frampton: Hopefully this conversation has inspired some of my listeners to go out , and buy the book and dig deeper. But if you were to summarize it in one sentence, how would you do that?Dr Kevin. Stone: Focusing on how to recover from injury. So if you are the, "Oh me, oh my, I'm injured.Now my season's ruined," or whatever, "My life is ruined," you're not gonna do very well. But if you're that person who says, "Bummer, I injured my knee, but let me use this time to figure out how to come back better, how to train my core, how to train upper body. How to work around my knee injury," if it's a knee injury."How to, how to work on things that I really, before my injury, had, wasn't really spending the time or focused on or paid attention to," then you're the athlete who's gonna come back better than you were before. And all athletes get injured, and the great ones use that time as an opportunity to be better.And so this book goes into lots of aspects about that. It also talks about, you know, specific orthopedic treatments and anabolic era stuff. Uh, some mind game stuff, other things that are fun.Michael Frampton: Okay. And can you inform folks of your website, please?Dr Kevin. Stone: Sure. So I'm at stoneclinic.com here in San Francisco. If they need a consult about an injury, look at stoneclinic.com/consult. We do that as a complimentary basis. Uh, if they're interested in the research, take a look at stone research.org. It's a public nonprofit research foundation. And we're just,we're excited by what we do , and excited to help people play forever.Michael Frampton: Yep. And is the book available on Amazon?Dr Kevin. Stone: Yes.Michael Frampton: Okay, excellent. So I will make sure that there are links to all of that, those things that, Dr. Stone just mentioned in the show notes. , Dr. Stone, thank you so much for your time today and, it's, this, the future is bright for joint health.Dr Kevin. Stone: It sure is.Michael Frampton: Yeah. Thank you so much.Great to talk with you. You too. Take care. Yep. The Surf Mastery Podcast: For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

138 From Obsession to Awareness: How Great Surfers Evolve with Coach Chris of The Surf Continuum Surf Mastery Podcast Download What if becoming a better surfer isn’t about catching more waves - but about thinking differently in the water?In this episode, Coach Chris from The Surf Continuum unpacks the deeper layers of surfing that often go unnoticed: the philosophy behind progression, the importance of surf culture and etiquette, and how maturity in the water can transform your entire experience. If you’ve ever felt frustrated, stuck, or disconnected from your surfing, this conversation offers a refreshing, thoughtful perspective.Gain insight into how mastering fundamentals and simplifying your approach leads to true, lasting progressionLearn how surf culture, respect in the lineup, and ethical decision-making shape not just your surfing, but your identity as a surferDiscover how breaking surfing down into simple, learnable fundamentals removes overwhelm and builds real skillHow shifting from performance-driven surfing to a more present, aware, and intentional approach can deepen your enjoyment and longevity in the sportPress play to explore a more thoughtful, grounded approach to surfing, and start evolving not just as a surfer, but as a human in the water.https://thesurfcontinuum.comhttps://www.instagram.com/thesurfcontinuum/https://podcasts.apple.com/nz/podcast/kookcast-surf-education/id1387032167To see and purchase the Surf Basis Paddle Trainer:www.surfbasis.comFor $30 off use Discount code: SURFMASTERYTranscript:​Coach Chris: it's cool because our philosophy is the same. It's our unifying, kind of path. But obviously our personalities and our approaches and and delivery of of that same philosophy comes out differently.Michael Frampton: So what's the philosophy?Coach Chris: Lemme just put it really simple first and then we can get into the nuance and the nitty gritty of it. , Fundamentals. That's it. As somebody who really appreciates learning and also teaching. My, my mother was a teacher , my father, he wasn't a formal teacher, but he was just, he was a good teacher, , at whatever he was trying to share with you.For him, it would be mostly sailing, but anything, he was patient and, and just, he had the art, you know, he could have been a teacher. , And just something I really started catching on to with anything I was interested in was that if you could figure out what the basic things were, and I mean the most basic, like really break it down to the cellular level, you can build everything up from there.And also because it's very easy to get distracted by , the goal or the big picture or the ultimate destination. And with surfing, that's riding a beautiful wave. , I guess you just, you have the cover shot in your head when you think of surfing and when you start learning.But really that's like the end result. The work to get there is just comprised of a lot of very simple things that individually, anybody can learn in a day, but it's piecing it all together and getting the timing and the application. That's where it becomes like the, , the complex looking thing, but really broken down.It's all simple things. . Fundamentals, and , that's what I feel like I wanna do with my students is, is bring them back to this basic, deconstruction of surfing. I think it makes it a lot more, , digestible too. It's less intimidating, you know, you don't have to do all these things, you just have to focus on one piece at a time, and then as you put it all together, it starts to become, oh, this is it.I'm doing surfing.Michael Frampton: So true.Yeah, the fundamentals are unavoidable and they're there for every surfer. Whether you are, a beginner or you're, , even someone really technical like Chipper Wilson, he's still, , in order to do a technical air, you still have to do a good bottom turn.You still have to read the ocean correctly , and do a good popup. So sometimes we only see, we only see him do a, some weird technical trick. We don't realize it's, it all comes from fundamentals. And then you've, of course you've got surfers who have made a name just sticking to only the fundamentals.I mean, there's nothing more beautiful than watching, , John, John just do a bottom top turn combo.Coach Chris: Oh man. Yeah. A great person to watch and see simple surfing done beautifully. , Yeah. But it's, , I just, I really do believe that the simplicity and masterful execution of the most simple things, it looks really great.It looks really complex. It looks really professional, and it, it doesn't necessarily have to be anything that's, , all that difficult. It's just. I think we, we easily, as humans, we wanna get on with it. You know, you wanna get to what you think you're trying to do and, and it rushes you past things that you should really get a little bit more obsessed over, you know?And when you really spend all your time and, and just really, , obsessed, that's the word you get obsessed with it to, and you don't move on so easily. Like, oh yeah, yeah, I know how to paddle. I know how to paddle. If you get obsessed, you start really discovering things. You start figuring out just how you lay on your board can change the world for you and how you catch waves.Michael Frampton: Yeah. So true. So you started Surf Continuum, correct? Mm-hmm. Which is a surf school. Is that the best way to put it?Coach Chris: I would say no school sounds like a big group of people. , One thing that, you know, so my partner and I started the surf continuum, Evan and I, , and we did work, in surf schools and the, the business model with the surf schools is volume based.You know, just try to crack off as much as you can in one day. And I understand it, you know, no, not throwing any shade. Um, I get why that has to be done, especially for seasonal places like where I live. We have a small window where tourists can come out and surf and have a, comfortable time. So you really are forced to, to pack it in as much as you can in a day.But, you know, just right off the bat of doing it, something didn't sit right with me. , When I joined this group and I, I remember one like our, probably our first busy day of the year, just looking kind of left and right and realizing like, whoa, the majority of the lineup is us, you know, our, the instructors with their students ., It's a pretty powerful thing to go out with a surf instructor who, who's put all these years in and understands where to position, how to set you up, and get you into a wave. And, and then with the push and all, , we were getting so good, we were barely pushing our students into waves.We could instruct them to get them moving and doing all the stuff. And then just that little guidance where people usually hesitate and pull back, that's where you just kind of insist that they continue with a little nudge from the tail, you know? But, I just. I didn't really like it, you know, I felt like I've always had it in my heart.I grew up in like real surf culture where, you know, if you were riding anything over then six foot, not that this is right, but if you were riding anything over six foot, you get outta here, go down the beach, whatever, , if you showed up with more than a friend, you know, or you came packed in a, in a car or a boat.Another reason to, to shoo you away if at at best. So all those things kind of influenced the surfer I became later in my life. And, and that was one of them was like, wow, we're crowding this spot and the people who are out here to surf can't really surf around us because we're good at what we do. So not only is it us as good surfers, but we're getting all these students into waves.And then we're,, following 'em in on our own wave. Like there was just no meat left on the bones for any other surfers. And I felt like that was really, that wasn't right. You know, it felt like beginners need to earn their way up. They need to work their way up. And I just kind of took it upon myself.I'm like, well, I don't, I can't change the world or even change this surf school, so I'm going to go out on my own and I'm gonna teach strictly like one-on-ones. , I'm not gonna try and grow. I'm not gonna try and get more instructors. , And I'm gonna try and be, just try to impart a little bit more of that surf culture that influenced me, and I'll filter out some of the unnecessary ego stuff.Of course, you know, boards now I ride everything, you know, I ride finless, foamies, mid lanes, probably long boards of the least, but I got nothing against them, you know? And then of course, my shortboard, but probably least of all now is, is what I ride. , But the other stuff, , the parts, the, the parts of surf culture that I felt were.Good and reasonable. And what made you really feel like you belong to the culture? , I try to keep in my teachings and so one of those things is not showing up in a big old group. You know, being discreet, being respectful, not paddling out to the peak as a, as a new beginner, just because you're with an instructor and thinking you're gonna get all the waves.No, I, I humble myself and I sit on the inside with my student and we pick up scraps and we pull back if there isn't, you know, if, if someone's on it. , And I, and it's just, it really makes the journey more impactful and I feel like it makes the stages of your growth feel better than having it all in the first day, you know, or the first few moments of surfing to get all of the rewards so early, kind of spoils the rest of the journey, I think.Michael Frampton: Yeah, that tourist experience. It gives you, a false perspective on surfing, I think sometimes, isn't it? Yeah. They're trying to get you to stand up on the first wave and perfect conditions and the right beach and blah, blah, blah.Coach Chris: Yeah. Yeah.I think that's again, , like we're getting at, it's, it, these are earned things. These are things that you start picking up on, like, oh, when the wind's offshore, the conditions are cleaner. Huh. You know, I didn't put that together until like, I don't know how many years into surfing. I just wanted to get to the beach, and if I saw white whitewater, I was pumped.It took me a long time before I started thinking about conditions and, , also I was a kid, but, , I, I think that's a really important mentality to try and capture in your beginner days is like this tolerance for anything. Like, you're just so pumped to, to get another chance to practice that.You know, you don't care about conditions. In fact, I, what's something I like to say is the worst condition is crowd. And when is there a crowd when surf lines calling green? , So when I get like these onshore wind reports or, , when we're getting like, oh, bad day for surfing, quote unquote, I'm writing out to my students, , and I, my little mailing list I have, and I'm going, this is gonna be a great day for us.There's gonna be nobody out. We should all be surfing. This is our day. , Bring back that, you know, grom mentality of, you know, less people, at least less crowd I should say. 'cause people are great. But, , it's the crowd, the, the pack and the, the people who are attracted to the good conditions where you start getting this, it, it taints your mindset too early in your surfing journey.Michael Frampton: Yeah. Well that's a great origin story and it's. The best sort of philosophy for a surf coach to have. , I hope it catches on because I don't think so, man. , I think it'll balance out some. It, I mean, it has to, I mean, there's certain spots where it won't, you're right. Especially, you know mm-hmm.Beginner friendly spots. Um, you know, it's always gonna sort of be that way, uh, in, in, in a way it's sort of the conditions, when the conditions get challenging, it's sort of, that's what separates the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. And I just think as experienced surfers who hold onto those sort of old school traditional ethical surf values, we just have to travel really.And we have to embrace that adventure surfer in us and, or, ride a different board around the corner where the waves aren't so crowded. That's, that's sort of what I do. But it's a shame. Absolutely. Yeah. It's a shame when your local spot turns on, you wanna surf it, you're, you're kind of zigzagging your way through a bunch of people that dunno what they're doingit can be frustrating.Coach Chris: Yeah. There are days where the, the perfect storm comes together and you know, it, it's like not too big that they can't send them out, but it is just pristine and beautiful and it really should be something more reserved for the, you know, the, the ones who've put their time in. But, you know, one other thing to the origin story is that I understand also the tourist approach to it.The amusement park ride, let's just call it what it is. I think my problem is not that business model itself, it's more so the semantics. They're still calling it surf lessons, , or surf instruction, and it's like, no, no. That's not instruction. This is a ride. It's a very fun ride.Yes. Enjoy it. Have fun. And, and a lot of those people, they don't come back to go surfing again or, or maybe they do next summer, but they're not actually trying to learn how to surf. They just kind of want to have the experience. Cool. That's fine. What I started finding though, in those people were people who did want to learn how to surf, who really had this intention of like, I'm gonna, I think this is something I want to commit to, but they were just falling into the same tourist version of the lessons, you know, but because it was called surf lessons, they thought they're in the right place.And I was like, okay, these are my people. You know, there's fewer of them mixed in to the rest of the tourist crowd. But if I can get my message right and, and my voice out there to, to help these people identify themselves as not quite the surf lesson crowd and find me instead. I thought, okay, there's a, there's a path for me here.You know, there's, there's people. 'cause you know that that'll never change. There's always gonna be tourists who want to go on the surf ride, you know, and, and let 'em, I, I don't mind, uh, I just, the people who really wanna learn how to surf, they're the ones that I want to capture and be like, okay, come on.Let's go out when the conditions are shitty, let's go, , let's go paddle, let's go talk about for the whole time how to paddle better, how to position on the board. Let's get nuanced and crazy about all that stuff. Let's not go to the best wave where the people are, like you said, and go down there.There's no one there. And the wave is just less often or smaller, or , a little bit more title, whatever it is. But accept all those things as, , part of the journey of learning how to surf.Michael Frampton: Yeah. Oh, there's such a need for that way of thinking. Especially because there's so many people that I think did have that tourist experience surf.Their, their first experience was with a tourist operator and, and then they thought, I wanna commit to this. And then I think back when we grew up surfing, the locals and the elders, they sort of shunned us and shamed us and probably spoke quite harshly to us. And that's how we learn some of the ethics and the finer details in, in surfing.But there's just so many newcomers to surfing that those people don't have the, the time to do that. So basically nowadays, instead of the elder, local surfers actually imparting some wisdom, albeit maybe a little too harshly, but hey, um, they, they just ignore it. That they just surf around you and drop in on you.And so there's all these people that aren't getting, , knowledge from, from the locals. They're just having locals run rings around them. , 'Cause they don't have the, you don't have the time. It used to be one or two , new surfers in the water. You, you educate that way. But nowadays there's, gosh, it feels like there's 50 sometimes and you've gotta literally surf through.You ca you don't have time to stop and say, Hey, you make sure you don't paddle in front of me and keep over there, or whatever it is. So we need , more of what you are doing for sure. So happy to help you put the message out there, but let's see. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Let's go back even further. When, when did you personally start surfing?Coach Chris: Oh, okay. So I was a little bit older. I wasn't like a grom grom, like I really wished I had been, four, five, and six. Like my daughter, she's dragging her boogie around when she's, you know, one and a half years old. I love it. I'm so excited for her, um, to have that experience. You know, literally just dragging the boogie around.Hasn't even gone with her. Boogie in the ocean and tried to get waves yet. Now she's two and a half. But, so I started surfing around, , 12 and I probably wanted to surf for a year and a half before that, but it took me a good year and a half, maybe two, to get a surfboard leading up to that. I have the best foundation that anybody could have to learn how to surf, which is boogie boarding, body boarding, whatever you'd like to call it.I like it. I like boogie. That's what I grew up calling it, and I still like to call it Boogie, the Boogie Board. Um, and I've been doing that since, you know, grom days just. Out in the water, straight up the beach, out in the water, waist deep, straight up the beach, blasted by whitewater over and over and over again.And it wasn't until I started teaching surfing that I realized how important that was as a foundation for my surfing. And then also realizing like, oh my God, every great surfer to some extent or another rode their boogie. It's, it's a, it's a high rep, safe, manageable piece of equipment. , There's just so much, it's so much surfing packed into such a smaller amount of time and on all these adults I work with that just get on a surfboard.It's tough because it takes not, not only longer because they're adults and we all know that children learn things so much better. And as you get older, you just less supple. Both physically and mentally to, to take new things on. , Now by skipping the Boogie and all the reps you can get and the high intense, you know, amount of work you can get done, you're going out there paddling, sitting, waiting.Passing up waves if you're being respectful, ethical surfer, because it's not your turn. You can't get in position better than other people. You're going surfing when it's good condition, so everyone else is out surfing. So you get, you can really potentially get into a tough spot. , So I had been boogie boarding, , I apologize for all these tangents for that.Michael Frampton: ,I, I'm gonna interject one thing that I think the root, the roots of surfing is, and what I tell my kids all the time is, when it's raining outside and you get a piece of cardboard and you walk up a little hill and you slide down and you walk back up and you come. That's it. That's, and I always remind my kids, Hey, remember a couple years ago when you just walked out to chest deep water and rode a white water wave in?That's just go out there, catch a wave coming. That's all it is. It's just real simple letting mother nature give you , some glide. That's, that's if we, that's the roots. Yeah. And that's why adults get caught up. So, and they don't realize that as kids, we, especially good surfers, went through that stage for often years.Coach Chris: Years. Years. , And it was years for me. And like I said, I mean, towards the end of those years I wanted to surf so bad. I was trying to stand on my boogie board 'cause , you're a kid and I, I, I fell for the whole, I'm not surfing. Boogie boarding isn't surfing. Surfing is surfing. , But yeah, what, 12 or 13 years old is when I started and then I was hard I, any opportunity.My father is a sailor and he loved to sail in the ocean on like, hobie cats, , like beach cats. He wasn't just like a leisure cruisey sailor. He wanted to rip and go sailing in the ocean. So that was great for me. 'cause now we both want to go to the ocean and I grew up sailing with him. Now this is where I started., He was a big part of my love for the ocean. But this is, , I started finding my own passion in the ocean. But we both still needed to go to the same place so we could easily. I could easily get him to go, you know, to the ocean. He even just to check his boats, , it was so easy. So I could go to the beach with him., My friend had a boat and that was a key 'cause I live, I lived right by the water, , but shadowed by barrier Islands. So you'd either have to drive 30 minutes in either direction to get a bridge across to the barrier islands and then drive to the beach. So it, it could be like a 40 minute ride to get to, to surfing by car, but by boat it was like 10 minutes.And believe it or not, at an early age, we were allowed to take that boat somehow. I don't know, thinking back on it, it's crazy that they allowed us, we , and his dad thought he was doing a, uh, like a good thing he put a governor on the boat so that we could putt across. We figured out how to take that thing off in no time.So we were flying full steam ahead across the bay. , But yeah, just trying to get to the beach any chance I got any possible way, , until I could drive and, uh, yeah, then I was driving illegally for two years to get myself to the beach. So I really, it was just about , surfing. Like once I started riding surfboards, it dictated like all the decisions I made in my life.Michael Frampton: Yep. And how would you describe your current relationship to surfing and the ocean and how has it evolved over the years?Coach Chris: Oh, that's a great question. 'cause I really do think about that kind of thing. . Like where it was, we were watching some videos recently, a couple of friends I grew up surfing with, and we were like, were we better?Were, did we surf better back then? You know, because we were like, wow, I feel like I was ripping there and, and like, now I'm so much more leisure, right? I care about different things is the conclusion I came to back then. I really cared about like how much water was flying off my tail when I, you know, snapped it up in the lip, how well I connected it.Sure, I still wanna do a great turn, but I care more now about positioning in the ocean. I care more about being a good surfer in different ways, , the way I see the ocean, the way I see water moving, like the invisible forces that you don't realize until you're looking back at the beach and you realize you're 300 yards down from where you started.I like to be more on top of that now, ahead of the game, , and be observant of other surfers and what's happening to them into the, in the water. , I certainly ride all kinds of boards now. I'll ride anything, which is a stark contrast from what I used to be. I used to be diehard shortboard, you know, 5 8, 5 7 thrusters only.Now I don't, I can't even tell you the last time I wrote a thruster. I'm on twenties, I'm on finless boards. , And I just, I've really come to know what I like because it's what I decided I like and not what I felt like I had to do to appease. I don't know, the group I was hanging with even they didn't know what they were.You know, we were all obeying some unknown higher power of what it meant to be a good surfer, and it was totally wrong for 99% of us, the industry, you know, maybe for the guys looking to go pro Yeah. The industry. Right, right. And I think the other way that I've changed my surfing is I, I, I wrote this in A PDF for my students, but it's called the Art of Missing Waves.And it's a layered, , philosophy. You know, there's many aspects to how you can gracefully miss a wave. One of them, the obvious is that you don't try too hard to catch a wave that doesn't, isn't quite doing it. You know, we've all been there. You see a wave, it looks great. You start going for it, and it starts laying down.It hits a deep spot or something. It doesn't quite keep standing. And how many people do you see double down and paddle harder to try and insist on catching it? So the art of missing waves is like, no, let it go. Like, read the room. It's not, it's not a wave you, you should be riding, but it's also a little more philosophical in the sense that you can't always be at the ocean when it's firing.You can't always get your session in when you want to. Especially now having kids and a wife and these other things, other responsibilities that are. Well, they're scoring in their own ways, but if you're so locked into surfing and you keep that teenager heads, uh, space about having to be there, you drive yourself crazy.So I've also become a lot more willing and, and graceful about missing sessions. Basically what I'm trying to say is I surf less. Mm. And I'm not mad about it. Yeah. I've surfed a lot in my life and, uh, I'm very content with how much I've surfed and how much I still surf, and, uh, I just feel like, yeah, I'm scoring in new ways now in my life and it's, it's fun, it's exciting and I want to enjoy it and I don't wanna wish myself away or wish I was somewhere else while I'm actually doing things that other people dream of having.Michael Frampton: Yeah. So would you say that when you do surf, your equipment is, fits the conditions better, your attitude fits the conditions better, and you're actually more present as well?Coach Chris: Sure. Yeah. Yep, absolutely. , I always like to say like, being a good surfer or, or a surfer is just a, a label that we like to use for ourselves, ourselves being humans.So if you wanna be a better surfer, you can be a better human, you know? And, and it really helps you, like we just said, you know, not, uh, not missing when you're missing the waves, not, not fomo or whatever, , torturing yourself. And then on the other hand, when you are surfing, being really grateful for it, being really present, you know?I like that word you used , and just. Being there and, and enjoying every bit of it. I think that's just a, a maturity thing of so many years of surfing and also just getting older as a human that you, you come to, to realize, maybe not everybody, but I think a lot of people do.Michael Frampton: Yeah. There's, , I thought I have around that, which is, I see surfing in a similar way.Like I went through a state when I was younger. I was completely obsessed with it. There was fomo, there was short boards, you know, wanting to rip the bag out of it every turn, blah, blah. Same kind of thing. Right. And, I spent a lot of time and effort in getting better at surfing short boards and seeking fast, powerful waves and, .I don't approach surfing that way at all anymore. I'm far more aligned with the way you just described it. But I wonder would I be able to, because I can go out into a crowded lineup and get, and choose fun waves and have a good time. But if I hadn't gone through that obsessed sort of FOMO stage of my surfing life, would I still have the surf knowledge and , the calmness and the ocean awareness to be able to do that?And like if, if I've got a client who's already a bit of an older surfer and is starting later, do I need to encourage them to go through that obsessed, you need to be obsessed with surfing and surfing all the time and you know, blah, blah, blah in order to get better. Or can you have that mature laid back present and still become a good surfer and read the ocean and get your, your reps in.Coach Chris: That's a really great thought. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I think, well, they have something like speaking about your client different than we had, which is us, uh, an instructor. Hmm. So maybe that supplements some of the knowledge they would otherwise have needed to get through obsession.Um, yeah. But that's, that's a really good point. I think there's a version of it for them. You know, a version of obsessed, which is basically like ignorant to conditions, or not ignorant, but just don't care. You know, maybe they know it's good or bad conditions on the scale of what surfers consider, but don't care about it.Be obsessed enough that you just wanna surf. Like, if you have this window, that's your time. You're going surfing well within reason. You know, I'm not telling people to paddle out and bombing on shore conditions, but I, I'm just talking about there's a lot, there's quite a lot of days that the lineup is mostly empty.I mean, it's it empty compared with what it would look like if it was clean and offshore, just because the wind is on it a little bit. It's a little wrinkled. It's a little ruffled. We've really trained something in our eyes to see that as not good. And that kind of blows my mind because like I said earlier, I, I remember not even being able to see, like all I saw, it was black and white.It was whitewater or no whitewater. You know, like there was a wave or there wasn't a wave. That was it. It can I ride it? In fact, I even remember being excited when the wind was on shore because I knew there had to be something, something had to be breaking. If there was an onshore wind, it's a little more risky when it was an offshore wind, you know, like sometimes you'd go and, I mean I'm in New York, so we do have some real deal flat spells where flat is flat.I'm not talking like it's small, it's flat, like there isn't a breaking wave. Maybe just a little ankle slapper lapping up on the beach and you know, so you're like turning around and going home. Totally bummed, so I, I think there's a version of it, you know, for the older, older folk who start later in life.But yeah, I, I don't know. I can't say with any kind of certainty. Well, what do you think about it? What do you feel? Do you, are you conflicted by it or do you have an answer if they should be obsessive like you were as a kid?Michael Frampton: I think a lot of it's got to do with managing their expectations first of all.If they're in a position where, they've worked hard, they've saved money, and they can afford to, you know, to go and go and spend six weeks in the Maldives and take a bunch of boards with you surf for eight hours a day, hell yeah. Sure, yeah. You know, you, if you're a bit older, you, you may, maybe it's not eight hours a day, maybe it's five and you've gotta do a, get a massage afterwards to, you know, you don't have a young body anymore.So, little nuance, managing expectations like that. , I also totally agree with what you said. , Back then we didn't have us, like one of the biggest tips in my surfing journey was when Tom Carroll, , said, you've gotta look for the details. I remember going surfing with him, and he was in his late forties and I'm in my early thirties and he's catching these waist high waves and just doing full roundhouse cutbacks, going four times faster than anyone else.I couldn't even catch these waves. And I was on a thicker board. I was like, how? And he's, oh, looking at, looking for the details, looking at the ripples, getting eyes down and looking across , oh. And that. Now I'm looking for the details in the waves. Mm-hmm. And the refractions and the secondary and tertiary swells and the way the water's drawing off the bottom, the way that the tides, so I can impart that now onto new surfers.And often when, when I go surfing with, with someone, or if it's a one-on-one surf lesson, , I'm not really doing traditional video footage and surf technique analysis. I'm more of a surf guide and I'm saying, see how. See how there's that little indicator, that little wave that broke, you know, 400 meters out there, hit that rock, and there's that splash.That means there's a set coming from the south and we're gonna paddle across here, and you see that bump here and it's that wave sliding across to there. I want you to paddle over there and take off on an angle. So I'm trying to impart some of the, the details that I'm seeing in, in the waves so that they can start to look for it now earlier on in Surf journey I think that also for the, for the older surfers, they need to know those details 'cause they're not as young and supple and they can't make as many mistakes and bodies aren't made of rubber and have endless energy and less inflammation. So you've got to sort of teach 'em that stuff. They're obviously a bit older, so they're open to it as well.And I also think that information helps calm the nervous system as well, so they can actually be a bit more relaxed in the water. Yeah. But yeah, it, it's nuance and it certainly does depend on, on the client and their expectations and also their intentions. Like, it makes me think of, I did an episode recently, I read some books about longevity, and did an episode where I sort of summarized them in, in terms of surfing.It's like we actually, we can become better surfers as we get older, and sort of. Maybe not better as in WSL surf technique, ripping a shortboard better. That's not what I meant, right? Mm-hmm. I meant we can go out and catch better waves and be more selective and choose the right surfboard. And when we surf and, , you know, if we maintain our bodies to a certain degree, may even, even maintaining a certain level of surfing as we age is a progression.Agreed. Yeah. And then I interviewed someone a couple of episodes after I released that and he was listening to that episode and he went, he started listening to the episode thinking, oh, I can get better as a short borderer. So he had this intention of thinking in his late forties, oh, I can become a better short borderer.And I was thinking, well, no, you kind of misread that. So he, he went into it with his own intentions and didn't really even hear what I was saying. So, so I think we, we need to be really realistic. If you're in your late forties, it's, and you started surfing late in life, you're probably not going to become better at doing a top turn on six foot waves.It's just Right, right. It's unlikely. Is it impossible? No, not impossible, especially you look at Kelly Slater, but I think what a people, a lot of people might not realize is Kelly Slater, that's his full-time job. I guarantee you he's getting a massage, probably at least three massages a week. He's spending a lot of money on good nutrition.He's getting his sleep. He's got, he's probably got a nanny that helps him with his kids. So he can, you know, this, his life is focused on maintaining his surfing level. So if you have the resources to, , to really focus on it, yeah, maybe you can, but I think it's mostly about managing expectations and being realistic and I guess to summarize, it's defining or perhaps redefining what getting better at surfing means.I really like that.Coach Chris: yeah. Yeah. No, I, I definitely, I can, uh, really agree with that. Even, I liked how you said just maintaining a certain level of surfing as you age is getting better because all, all the laws of the universe, and we are pointing to you getting worse as you get older.You get stiffer, you're fighting an uphill battle. So if you're able to maintain, you know, it's, um, it's a form of getting better. But also, like you said, I think getting better at surfing can be seen in, or, or the, the basis for what is getting better is multiple things, you know, and just the maturity.I think one of the reasons I've gotten better at surfing is not necessarily how I ride the waves, but because of that concept of the art of missing waves and really making it a tangible thing for myself. Like not this obscure kind of thought floating around in my head that sort of floats up every once in a while and I'm like, oh yeah, remember that?But like, no, this is like a, now it's a written down, like, it's almost like I've journaled it to myself, you know? That to, to be able to miss waves, you know, in a, in a graceful way is a version of me getting better as a surfer and not taking away from my family or from, you know, things I need to do in my life because I just need to go surfing right now.The waves are good and I gotta go, you know, like what kind of person is that, that you have to bail on things because of surfing? That's, in my opinion, that's sort of not a good surfer because like I said, a surfer's just a person, and if a person is bailing on family or these things. Then you're not a great person.I'm not saying you're a bad person. I'm just saying you, you could be better and that would also make you a good surfer. You know what I mean? But you know, the, the, the standard for what you're measuring against. It's, it's important to, to identify that scale. That's how we can get better.Michael Frampton: Yeah. Even letting go of FOMO as you age. That's getting better at surfing.Coach Chris: Yeah. Yes. That's, that's, that was it. Yeah. Thank you for saying it better than I did. It took me like a hundred words and you did it in a couple, but like, yeah. Not having fomo. Don't do that to yourself. Why torture yourself? Because if you really think about it, there's millions of waves breaking every moment all the time.And some of 'em are epic world class. Some of 'em are very far away. Some of 'em are within reach and you're not riding those 'cause you don't know about. So don't torture yourself just because you know the waves were good and you can't go, you know, there's good waves all over the place every moment of the day.You're missing them all. Don't worry about it. It's all good.Yeah. Well, that's another point is like, there's a famous quote from aki, which goes something like, if you are not surfing good waves, you're denying yourself as a surfer, and I believe that you're not surfing. Yeah. Like, you know what it's like, okay.When you, when you, when you go on a tropical surf trip and you surf one of those long period swells on a windless day at a reef break, it's just, you know, you would, you would travel, you know, two days to surf three of those waves and come home. And come home happy. You know, that's how good, you know, a good quality, thick, long period swell on a windless reef is, you know, you'd swap three of those waves for four, four hour sessions at your local average beach break, you know?Sure. Sure. But I think well part, you know, let's keep going down the philoso, uh, like philosophical route and think that it's only because you don't get it all the time. If you had that every single day without question, sort of like the wave pool kind of pickle we're getting ourselves into, if that's always available to you, is it gonna continue to be as sweet?Is it gonna continue to be so wonderful? It's only because it's uncontrolled. It's out of your ability to consistently take and get that we can't abuse. You know? Like why do drug addicts become drug addicts and alcoholics and people? Because it's something that's consistently available if you seek it out.And because the human condition is to. Just, we all have a little bit of an addict in ourselves. We want more and more and more of something that we like. Yeah. And so if we could do that with surfing, we'd spoil it for ourselves. It's great that we cannot score all the time that good because it helps us learn to appreciate it when it happens and when it doesn't.You know, you just putting in your hours and putting in your reps for when it does happen again. Well, I think what, what I was getting at there was it's quality over quantity, I think is something that's Oh yeah. So, you know, you, you maybe, maybe work six weeks in a row in order to save up, to go on a surf trip to get, I got you now.Yeah. I miss that. To get, to get away from the crowd or. Even specifically, like where I surf is kind of like a novelty point break where even on a good day, maybe one in every 20 waves sort of lines up properly and doesn't have refracted swells and wind chops on it and actually breaks across the point properly.So I might, it might, I might sit in the right spot and actually just tease a bunch of people into the ones I don't want. Mm-hmm. And then just waiting for my, my detailed eye to choose that one wave that I know is gonna actually. And that's usually not the biggest wave of the set. It's one of the medium ones that doesn't have a wave in front of it or a wave breaking across it.So I'm teasing everyone into the other ones thinking that I'm hungry, but I'm actually just being patient and selective with, 'cause I'd rather catch two of those in a session and get three good turns in and then jump in my car and go home rather than pump my way and catch waves that don't break properly.So yeah, quality over quantity as you age, I think is, is better too. And it, it also sort of gives you something to, I also find that surfing when it's new, it's like anything, it really encompasses your, your attention. I just recently, uh, got my motorbike license and when I first started riding the motorbike, I was scared initially because now I've gotta look at the road differently and. I was a hundred percent focused. And now as I sort of getting a bit better, I found myself of being a bit too relaxed almost. Mm-hmm. But, but then what I have to do now is think, okay, I just need to look for the details on the road so that Tom Carroll sort of.His tip comes into my mind, and I always, I'm always looking, even when I'm sitting out the back waiting for a set, I'm just really looking at that little sliver of horizon and just trying to predict where's that next set coming? Is it a wide set? Is it a bigger set? Is it a smaller set? So really just I think focusing in on the, on the, on the details with the intention of looking for the best of the best on that day.Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like a, a, like a new mount, a new mountain biker who's coming down a track, you, you wanna stay on that meter wide track, right? You wanna stay on the track and you're like, it's so exciting. You're going fast and well, you think you're going fast. And then as you get better and better at mountain biking, you're starting to look where exactly is the center of my tire going?And what's the fastest, right. What's the fastest way through that? Through that, that track. Just like with surfing. Mm-hmm. Right. Initially you see that one swell coming in. Right. And now, now you're looking, oh, there's actually three swells in the water and there's a wind chop and there's refractions. And I'm actually looking for the part of the wave where the water's moving, mo moving most, and where, where exactly am I gonna put my rail?So you, your focus narrows in and becomes more detail orientated. It helps you to surf faster, but it also helps you to choose better quality waves and, and helps you to keep focused through your surf as well.Yeah. Yeah. It takes one of the most important qualities of, of surfer, which is their positioning, and it just keeps tightening up as you, you know, you're get, like you said, the details.Now you're no longer trying to be in this spot, you're trying to be in that spot, you know, this tiny little one between your fingers compared with the big wide, you know, broad range. But, uh, I love the way you talk about, you know, seeing waves and, and it's, it's putting to words some of the things that I think and, but sometimes struggle with articulating, when a wave is just like you said, there's always some nuance, there's always some detail to be looking at when a wave's coming in, even on the most perfect of conditioned days, there's little humps and, you know, things happening in the water that, , cause you to maybe just shift over a lane to catch the wave or, you know, and I just, I, I like the way you describe it.I'd love to surf with you. You, you're not, you're not around here though, huh? You what? What's your local spot by the way? What's that point break? Are you allowed to sayI'm in Hawke's Bay? I'll keep the spot quiet, but, yeah. I'm in New Zealand in, in a place called Hawke's Bay at the moment. , But you know, a few years ago I was based in, in Malibu and I was doing a lot of surf guiding and coaching out there.\, I miss that place. It's such ama, amazing part of the world. , But yeah, no, I think that the, the more I. The more I think about the details and the more I'm able to focus in on it, the more I get outta surfing. I think it's the same with anything in life, right? You actually make, it makes me remember a story which I don't think I've told on this podcast, so I'll, I'll tell it to you now, is I was out great.I was out at ATU surfing, oh gosh, must have been 2016, right when Jack Robinson had started, , on tour and he had sort of made the WCT and was this sort of tube writing savant. I dunno if you remember when he first came in, did he win the pipe masters or he did? Well, it was with his, he was amazing in the tube.Well, I think he was, he was pretty good. Not to get off of your story, he was pretty good in the beginning, but he hit a year early in his career, but not necessarily the first one, if I remember correctly, where it was like, whoa. He's, or maybe that was before he, maybe he hit that stride before he even joined the WSL.But anyway, sorry. Continue with your story. Yeah. It might've been 2017. Anyway, I'm sitting out the back at ATU waiting for a, a, a wider set. And Jack Robinson's dad paddles up to me, and he's a very talkative chap. , And I'd, I'd met him a few years earlier, , at a local comp down in Manley where I was living at the time, in, in Sydney.And he recognized me and just started talking my ear off. Hmm. And I just said to him, Jack and Jack had just come on the tour and everyone was talking about how good he was in the tube. And I asked him, I said, , why do you think Jack is so good in the barrel as such a young surfer? And he just looked at me and he said, he builds boats inside of bottles.And I was like, oh, what, what? That's an interesting, why did, why say that? And he said, yeah. Because it takes him hours and it's fine. Motor control and a very, very clear, focused intention on the finer details. That's how you build boats inside of bottles, and that's how he rides tubes so well. Huh. Which blew my mind at the time.And I remember a wave came in totally. A wave came in and I took it and I never saw him again. That's hilarious. Wow. What an interesting answer. And, and the way you tell it sounds like he's very sure that that's what it is. Well, I, but I see it and, and I, for me, if I were to describe why that's a contributing factor is just like that.The precision of it. You don't have all the space of a desk to, you know, scatter items and whatever. You know, you are consolidated into this one tiny space. Not only that, but it bottlenecks even further and to, you have to fit your pieces through there. So that's a, that's a really interesting take on why he's such a good tube writer.Yeah, I love it. Leave it to the old timers to have one of those kinds of answers for you, you know? No, no. Straightforward. Like, oh, he, he, you know, he points his hand and he looks at it on his way out. None, none of that stuff. It's the building the boats in the bottle. That's what does it. Yeah. Yeah. I, I always remember that it stuck with me.Yeah. And I think, , you gotta have, , focus, you're detailed, focused for hours on end to do that, you know? Mm. So if you're out, if you're out surfing, . An intense wave in Western Australia where he is from. , , You have to be focused the whole time.You can't just, a lot of, I think a lot of people think that you can just sit there in between sets and wait for a set to come in. That's not what good surfers do. They don't. No, of course not. No. You know, what you, you ever tried to talk to, to a good experienced surfer? Not that they've just, they won't even hear, they're gone.They won't hear you. You think they're being rude. They actually be the friendliest guy you've ever met in the carpark. But when they're surfing, they won't even acknowledge your presence because they are hyper-focused on the horizon. They wanna know when that next set is coming in and they wanna start paddling for it before you've even seen it.Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I remember surfing with, with Nation Nathan Hedge once and everyone's sitting in the water waiting for a set and Nathan Hedge starts paddling. And everyone's like, why are you paddling? And, and he paddled like an animal. And next thing you know, , 20 seconds later everyone else sees the set and starts paddling.But he's already in the right position and he's already moving. He's already hungry. It doesn't matter if someone was in a better position than him. Nathan Hedges wants it more and is actually in a better position so he gets the wave. 'cause he's so focused on the details. That little sliver of 'cause that's all it is when you think about it, you're looking at such a thin sliver of horizon to see those sets come, come in.No wonder it takes so long to learn. You know, we are looking for such fine little details on the horizon. So that's what I'm always, I think that's what helps keep me present , that's what I'm trying to get better at surfing really is, is reading the ocean and, and the finer details. Not just when I'm surfing a wave, like a mountain biker, going down a track, but also while I'm.Trying to predict where the next set is coming in and where it's gonna break. And , you using your peripheral vision to sort of be aware of where everyone else is, who's paddling so much going on. 'cause I think it's just as much, especially nowadays about reading the ocean, it's about reading the crowd as well.Knowing who can, yeah. Yeah. So you've gotta have a , a minor in psychology as well to, to get wave of, well you said a really good, you said a really good thing. Um, well, two things I wanted to talk. One I'll just say is that I really like that explanation for why surfers can seem a little cold, in the water., And that's a really good explanation for why. It's because they're focused, you know, their, their mind's elsewhere. They're, this isn't. Chit chat hour. It's not coffee time, it's, it's, I'm out here to, to catch a few waves. And that takes a high focus, especially as you get better and you know what you're looking for.And then the other thing I liked was, the intention, when you show intention, , like Nathan Hedge was so intent on his positioning and getting there for that wave that even if somebody had been in better position, perhaps they just sort of, alright, go ahead. You, you want it more. You know? And I think that's a big, that's a, that's a thing that comes up quite a bit in, um, in my sessions with students because naturally a student, a beginner or even a, you know, a practicing surfer in their early years can easily show hesitation., They can easily back off or think that someone else is going when really, , that's, that says a lot about. What happens for you in the water? Do you get waves or not Just how intent are you, you can get waves that you wouldn't have otherwise gotten just by continuing for a little longer or showing your intention and, and you, because I, I'm just saying, I've, I always want my students to be respectful and, and respect good, you know, surf etiquette.But the, the gap between when you're , exercising good etiquette, and when you're just being hesitant, it's, it's usually a large one. There's a lot more room to continue and still be polite and, and then find out like, oh, that person's actually not in good position. Everything, something changed.They're pulling back. They don't want the wave or they saw you going and they just wanna let you go. They didn't want that wave that bad in the first place, but no one else was pa Just so many circumstances and situations unfold. As they progress. And if you don't show intention long enough up until the point of the decision, you know, there, it does come a point where it's like, okay, decision time.If I go, am I burning somebody or am I doing something bad? Or did everything change from just moments ago when I thought I shouldn't go? It's a good talking point that often comes up with my students and myself of intention, you know, have, have a little bit more commitment and, and intention and, and 'cause it displays in your body language and it, and it's, it reads as beginners look hesitant.So you can almost fool people with your intention as that you're a little bit better than you are just by, just keep going, just keep going a little longer. Keep setting that wave up, pull back if it really is a, a no-go situation.Yes. Every surfer has approaches it so differently. Not everyone's out there just to catch lots of waves sometimes I think the nice person in us thinks that, and we let.There may be, and then they don't even catch the wave anyway. Like, oh, I could've had that one, but yeah, yeah, yeah. You could, you should have wanted it more, you know, it's not unethical to be hungry to catch waves and Right. There are surfers out there who don't wanna talk to anyone. There's some surfers that go out there to talk to everyone, and there's everything in between.And even, gosh, even my 10-year-old, even my 10-year-old, sometimes I paddle up to him and like, do you want me to help you catch you over? He's like, you know what, dad? I just love sitting out here and just looking at the, and, uh, okay. So, wow, that's a really mature thing for a 10-year-old to say. I know. It blows my mind sometimes.I'm like, you'd think he'd be hungry and wanting to catch waves, but no, he's just, sometimes he's happy just to sit out the back for a bit and enjoy it. I bet. I,I bet it has a lot to do with, did you, uh, did somebody introduce surfing to you and your family, or did you find it on your own and, and kind of found, pursue it yourself?I found it on my own. Right. Basically. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's, that's what I thought, sort of felt like, it, it, it works with my philosophy, what I'm just gonna say. We both found surfing the same way. Like it wasn't given to us through our family, our fathers or something, and we got to do it so easily, so early.We, I, I had to fight for it. I really had to fight hard. I had to save money to get my first surfboard. It wasn't easy. Mm. So when I got it, I was hungry, you know, I really wanted it. Whereas I, I, I think your son maybe has a little bit more of a healthy approach because it's a, it's a little bit more abundant for him.He can get it easily, you know, just like you said, he, his dad's always there to come right up to him and offer a help for, to get a wave. So it probably helps him to see, you know, the bigger picture a little better. Yeah. Whereas us, we were so desperate just to get on waves and, and keep progressing and in the way that we thought progression meant, you know?Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm also aware, I'm aware of the time. Did you have to go at on the hour or have I got you for a bit longer? No, no, no. Yeah, you got me. I let it rip.Michael Frampton: So what's the best piece of surfing advice that you've ever received?Coach Chris: Personally, I don't know if it's the best, but it just came to mind. And it is, just because they can't surf good doesn't mean they can't fight.One of my, uh, role model surfer guides, you know, uh, like informal. I went through a period of my life where I was, didn't really have a lot of friends to go surfing with. But this older guy, well, I guess he's probably how old I am now, uh, in his later thirties, he would take me surfing all the time. He was a really.Important figure in my life, like a father. I have a great father, still do. , But I was also a teenager so my dad wasn't as cool to me then, you know, and this guy was kind of like my temporary father that I actually respected and listened to and he surfed and it was just this really in important good person in my life.And he taught me so many things, but paddled back out one time, all fired up, you know, 'cause somebody dropped in on me and the guy was, he dropped in and went straight. He didn't know what he was doing. It was clear as day. And I'm all hot and heavy and I'm like, oh man, that guy Jack, blah blah, blah. And I'm talking up, you know, Mr.Big shot over here probably was just starting to get somewhere with my surfing. Like, you know, I could actually do a little something, go down the line. I could, you know, do what I wanted. Yeah. To some extent. And so I'm getting all proud and cocky and he goes. Man, just 'cause he can't surf doesn't mean you can't fight.You be careful and don't get yourself beat up, you know? And it actually landed. I was like, damn, that's true. You know, like, who knows who this guy is? Like, what if I go, you know, acting all Mr. Big shot? And I just get completely humbled. , I, I mean it might not be the best, but it's up there. It's good advice.And I, and I have a follow up story for that. My, a good friend of mine was teaching a, a, a surf lesson, you know, and in the tourist thing, you know, and, and he's, he's out there with this student. It's, it's coming up on the end time. So he is getting a little anxious to get them in on a wave. And one of the local hot shots is just getting wave after wave, lapping 'em, you know?And you know, mostly. That's just how it goes. Good surfers get good waves and more waves. But I think he got to the point where he is like, dude, next wave we gotta go in. We're taking it. Just so you know. And he tells the young guy, and young guy goes, my friend, the instructor launches his student into the wave and the young guy goes, he's like, he gets upset about it.And he goes and tells his father, you know, he is like. Old enough to be mad and wanna start something not old enough to, you know, do it on his own. He goes and tells his dad, who's also a, you know, a little bit of a hothead. Mm. Comes up to my friend and he gets in his face and he is yelling and doing all these things, surf lessons, this and you, and blah, blah, blah.And my friend's like, dude, what, what are you doing? Like, relax. Like, I, I was, I was working for you when your son was born. Remember when I covered your shift and you went and your son was like, like, dude, calm down. Okay. All right. So anyway, whole situation, tempers down, walks away, nothing happens. And the student goes, Hey man, I'm really proud of you.The way you handled that. That was really, you were really mature and calm. I just want you to know though, if it got bad, I'm a black belt in Jiujitsu, I would've, it would've been no problem for me to handle this. And it just, he, he texted me right away. I wasn't there for this, but he texted me and he goes, dude.Just 'cause you can't surf, doesn't mean you can't fight. And I've told that story before. So he thought of me right away and I loved it. I was so, I was so proud of him for the way he handled himself. And I was just so, like, it was such a, Hollywood moment, you know, to have it actually happen where this guy is quietly standing behind you.You think he's some kook who can't surf and really, he's like a great fighter who would know how to handle himself. No problem. I like that. Gosh, I, I'll extend it too. Just 'cause they can't surf doesn't mean they're not mentally ill. I had one guy who was Oh yeah. A very eccentric, , extroverted, , surfer and he was terrible at surfing.So we're just kind of. Surf around him a little bit and be a bit, sort of maybe rude to him. 'cause he would always try and surf places that were out of his leg. Mm. And he'd get angry. He'd never do anything about it. He almost, it sort of seemed like a weird dude. And he, I must have pissed him off 'cause he really didn't like me.And then he loosened the wheel nuts on my car one day. Holy cow. Yeah. That's diabolical. Yeah. So be Whoa. You never know what someone's capable of. Geez. That's insane. I know. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Well there you have it. You know, be a good person and you're a good surfer. Yeah. What is some of the biggest mistakes or the biggest mistake that you see that sort of, that beginner early intermediate make some of your, some of your students?Is there some common threads?Sure. Yeah. Um,There's a list of them, you know, but I can't help myself, but say, especially when it comes to adults, not bookie boarding, first, not learning how to play in the ocean. First. People come and they wanna learn how to surf and they wanna be serious about it right away.And I respect that. I take, I take the learning process seriously, but there is a lot to learn in play. It's how children learn the whole world through play. And when it comes to the beach and surfing, boogie boarding is the version of play that we've many, most of us have done to learn how to surf. So there's a lot of basic principles there that are, are totally, they become brand new when you're doing it on a surfboard.But a surfboard is bigger, it's harder, it's, it's more difficult to manage. It's, it can be more dangerous. You get less reps. So it, it, it, it just really sets you up for a difficult journey when you don't have a little foundation of, you know, jumping on a boogie over and over again, you know, a hundred times in an hour trying to set your rail, pull into a little closeout slide up on the beach, how to roll with the wave when you wipe all those things.That's, that's one of the big ones for me. And then there's the obvious, you know, positions on the, the board people using. Their body position on the board to try and prevent a nose dive, which so often leads to nose diving because now your board's not moving efficiently. You're not able to tilt over the ledge of the wave when you should.You get delayed and caught up in the lip. And when you finally do catch the wave, the things, you know, vertical and ready to go, you should have been in it moments ago. There's those counterintuitive solutions, um, that people use or the, the solution is counterintuitive. The, the obvious, you know, solution to the, the beginner is like, oh, move back on my board so I don't nose dive.If I'm way back on my board, I won't nose dive. And no, actually move up or be in the right position, catch the wave properly on time and have a much more, you know, user-friendly. But that's like obvious stuff. I prefer more like the big picture. Get on a Boogie, go ride a Boogie board.Like have it in your quiver. At the very least when you get your first surfboard, also get a boogie board. 'cause the, it just opens up your world of opportunities and when you can go surf, you know, when you can go have a fun and get a couple reps in. Totally. Yeah. Like, did you watch that, , episode of the Tim Ferris show where he decided surfing was something he wanted to get good at as quick as possible.And he hired Lead Hamilton as a coach. And the fir, that's the first thing lead Hamilton did. I said, right, we're just gonna go, just gonna go and play in the whitewater, no surfboard or anything. I, yeah, I didn't see that, but I love it. I'm so happy to hear that. Because I feel like I'm like, it's like a novel a thing.I'm saying like, people look at me like, no, no, I wanna learn how to surf. And it's like, yeah, I know this is how. Yep., you wanna learn how to spell, read and write, but you don't wanna learn the alphabet. It's like, you, you can't, yes. You. When one of the, you know, one of the best and most famous surfers in the world didn't start till he was 17, which, who's that?When I interviewed him, it blew my mind and it didn't even make any sense to me. Robert Wingnut Weaver really didn't start surfing until Wingnut didn't start surfing until 17. That's right. And, and after I dug a little bit deeper, it turns out he'd been body surfing since he was five. That's why. Okay. I got a great story.My favorite session of the summer last year, I had this woman, brand new, comes through my system, you know, like a normal first timer. Not someone that knows me and skips that all and texts me or something like that. Books blah, blah, blah, does the whole thing. I meet her on the beach. It goes, it's everything is like you'd expect for the first.Day of a first student, you know, so I do the usual. We go off into the flat water. We have like a nice deep area right adjacent to the, the, the break that's perfect for beginners. But I don't even just 'cause it's perfect for beginners. I don't take beginners straight out. We go to the deep water. I show her how to turn her surfboard while sitting.I show her how to turn it while she's paddling. I show her how to lay on the board, how to, you know, and she looks great. I'm like, oh, okay, cool. And it's a mellow, gentle day. So I'm like, let's go. Okay, we got 15 minutes left. Let's go over and, and see if we can apply this to catching a wave. And I have no standards, no expectations.I'll be happy if she catches a wave. And I tell her that, so she does first wave. I'm just like, okay, let's sit up. We're turning, lay down. She lays down perfectly. These are all the little things that go wrong. You know when a wave's coming for a beginner Mm, they can't, all of a sudden they're sitting in the middle of the board trying to turn instead of the tail, like I just showed them and they did it 20 times.Okay? They lay down and they're all the way up on the nose or vice versa, all the way on the tail, all those things that go wrong, and we're like, okay, let the wave go. You know, it's not going right. She's doing it all perfectly, just like we practice in the flat water. But now with the pressure of a wave and the timing having to be right, she gets the wave.She, she presses up. I teach my students actually when they're learning, don't stand up. I teach them how to press themselves up as they're be begin, like a beginning to stand up, but in that moment, pause and look down the line and start engaging your rail. So she does that and sort of goes down the line.I'm like, oh, no way. Come on back out here. Let's do that again. Stand up this time. You know, why not? So she does. Oh, I may have gotten it a little backwards. Maybe her first wave. She just goes straight. But she did all the things so well to catch the wave. I'm like, Hey, let's do your press up and set your rail.So then she presses up, sets a rails, go down the line. That's what it was. The second time she presses up, doesn't stand up. That's the other thing I appreciated. Didn't have this idea in her head. I have to stand up. I'm surfing. She, she respected my instruction and she stayed in her press up posture, sets her rail and just goes down the line.I was like, amazing. Alright, bring it back out. We're gonna close the deal. I want you to do everything the same, but this time you can. After you press yourself up and start going down the line, stand all the way up. And she does. You knew that was coming. She goes down the line. She even does a dismount at the end.It's one of my favorite points of like a good surfer is how do you complete your wave? And for a beginner, you can practice this immediately. Sit down at the end, don't jump off your board. Certainly don't dive. Don't jump on the way. Don't do any of those things. Dismount. Control your finish. Hmm. So I'm, I'm floored.I'm like, that was insane. That was like the most ideal session you could have with a brand new beginner. First time. I'm like, are you sure you've never surfed before? I felt like Wing Nut, actually, I think it was Wing Nut. And then the summer too when he's like, oh, I'm gonna teach this girl how to surf.And turns out she's been surfing for years, you know? Was it, was it Wing Nut or was it Pat O'Connell? It's been a while since. Anyway. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I forgot too. But anyway, I felt like she was tricking me. I felt like somebody set me up to play a joke on me and be like, yeah, teach this beginner. But actually she knew how to surf and she swore up and down.She never surfed before, but she goes, yeah, but you know what I do boogie board all the time. And I was like, ah, thank you. Okay. You are like my new, like I'm gonna do something with you marketing. Like you have to tell this story. We have to make something of this. 'cause it just really, in such a perfect way, proved my point.That boogie boarding is such a foundation. Standing up is not hard. Catching away, all those things are not hard When you have the foundation, uh, and understanding and the repetition and practice of jumping into waves over and over again, and understanding the feeling of, of a wave lifting you up and all those, you know, basic things, but on a board that's manageable and something you can just buy in the store and do it on your own.You don't need an instructor. It's not intimidating. Like surfing is to get into, you know, you gotta be a certain type of person that goes and buys a surfboard and just starts trying to surf, you know, it's like mountain climbing, like, or, or like, like serious mountain climbing. I, I wouldn't just go do that by myself.Hmm. I would find people, I would figure out like, how do I do this correctly so I don't kill myself? You know, like I would respect the sport and the, the dangers of it. And so I feel like I wish more people had that with surfing. Like, oh, okay, I like surfing. It sounds good, but I, I need some guidance here.I'm not gonna just try and go do it. You know, you wouldn't just go try and climb L cap 10, you know, like, yeah. That's a serious endeavor. You, you, you'd need guidance, you'd need practice and, and work your way up to it. But anyway, that was, it was my story for proving that the Boogie Board is the key. You wanna become a better surfer, you know, in your, in your older years, get a Boogie and your younger years too.Oh yeah. If you haven't surfed before, it's reading. Reading the ocean is the foundation of Yeah, that's what it's, whether it's body surfing, bodyboarding boogie boarding, or surfing or whatever, it's reading. The oceans surfing's actually really simple, isn't it really? I mean, even it is. It's surfing. Even high performance surfing.Look at Aki Surf. Watch his body. It barely moves. It's just, yeah. Yeah. It's just rhythm and timing. The way he leans. Even John, John, you know, when he is not doing anything too dynamic, his technique is so subtle. Mm. You know, there's not actually that much movement going on. I think the popup is the hardest maneuver in surfing.Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's is the hardest part, isn't it? Because the limitations of like hip mobility and flexibility, especially for the older gentlemen, you know, the gentleman really struggle with the hips and the lower back. You know, they're, they're tight down there and it really makes, , the standup, the, the hard part.Yeah. Yep. Okay. Well, Chris, tell us about your website before we let you go. Okay. , Built it myself, so it ain't no pro site, , the surf continuum.com is just a, , it's a, well, it, it serves two purposes. It's just, you know, my business and how you find me and, and book a session. But we also built a, like a little bit of a membership library on there.It was during COVID. I had imagined doing this for a while, and COVID presented the perfect opportunity to have a ton of time and not really feel guilty about sitting inside the house all day, you know? And, . I'm working on something on the computer. So that's when I put my mind to building this library.And I upload, , our podcast videos, like the moment we record them. You know, I, I'm a little on and off about releasing public episodes, but the membership site has, , a new one all the time. Mm-hmm. , And I slowly catch up to them, you know, publicly. But, then I answer questions from members on there.They, they can write in and I do, you know, a video question and answer with, , with, with Coach Evan. , And then there's one last part of the puzzle, which is just our videos that inspire us to talk about something analytical or, or just a topic that's basically a podcast, I'd say, but with a video as the.The main core. And, , so that's been in existence since Yeah. COVID, so that's 2020, I guess. And, , and now we're starting to, to, , evolve it a little bit. We're incorporating a little bit more of a live feature to it. , So one thing I just sort of started coming to the realization is the reason why my most, the most successful aspect of my business is my personal coaching.That's what keeps me the busiest. That's what really pays the bills. The, the membership site's great. It's a nice machine. That's a little supplemental thing. , But I was just thinking about why, because, you know, it's, it's pretty reasonable. You could easily join if you're interested in getting better at surfing.It's a really cheap way to get insight from two surfers who really not only have been surfing in their whole lives, but care about trying to, you know, explain. This kind of stuff, beginner stuff and, and getting better at surfing stuff. So I was like, oh, why is it not better? , , or more popular or just, you know, reaching more people.And the conclusion, whether right or wrong I came to is that I'm not present on it in a live sense. It's, it's totally, totally different when you watch a video, an archival version or a past video compared with when you can participate in a, a group setting. , And that also brought up that that also creates a community.When you can join with other people who are in your position, you start to have this ability to be part of something. And , let's face it, surf culture is tough to crack into, , especially older. , Surfers are not the most welcoming., Not all, not many, but, , I guess because, well, I, I don't know. I don't want to go there, but whatever it is, it's, it's tough. I, for some people to find their people, and if you wanna keep surfing and be consistent about, , your practice, it really, really helps when you have other people to sort of go with or know are in the same piece of the journey with you.And so, yeah, that's where we're going now. We, we did our first live call recently, and it went great. It was really exciting to have people like to see, . Some excitement around it. And, uh, yeah, we're gonna continue to do that. So create this. Just, you know, I, one thing I know for sure is that you, you, nothing comes out perfectly formed.You have to just start. And let it evolve into what it needs to be. And so that's what this membership site has been. It's, you know, just start, it wasn't perfect, it's just these videos of us recording things and now the live version is the same. It's not a perfect version of what, but as we do them, we're realizing, oh, okay, we can do this and that.And, , I would definitely encourage anybody to check it out because you can do it just for a month and see one live call and if it fits or doesn't. Yep. , Okay. Yeah. And that's cool. That's the website. So if, if someone out there listening happens to be in the New York area, they can book a one-on-one session with you as well in person?Yeah. Yeah. So I'm in Montauk that's on the east end of Long Island. As far as the East Coast Con is concerned, it's one of the better places, you know, to be a surfer. We have. Probably the most consistency, , maybe Cape Hatteras does a little better than us, but also on the West coast in Southern California is my partner coach Evan.And so from the same website, , they'll be able to link up with one of us, whether it's on the east coast, in, uh, Montauk or West Coast and around the orange County, you know, San Diego area. Okay, great. So listeners, if you liked Chris's philosophy and you wanna learn more, you can do one-on-one, , with him or his business partner in those two areas.And of course you can go check out some uh, at www.thesurfcontinuum.com and what we didn't. End up talking about was your podcast the Kook cast? So the, oh yeah. Obvious. Obviously people listening are into podcasts and into surfing, so yeah. , Chris has a massive, and Chris and Coach Evan have a massive, , library there at K Cast, uh, on whatever podcast platform you tune in on.So go and check that out as well. Chris, uh, anything else to add? No, I think we did some good, covered some good ground here. Awesome. I appreciate your time and uh, really I'll put there'll be links to all that stuff in the show notes as always. Thanks listeners. Thanks for tuning in and keep surfing.Thanks Chris, you. The Surf Mastery Podcast: For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

137 James Russell - Mad Surf Stories Surf Mastery Podcast Download What would you do if one wild surf story could change how you travel, train, and survive in the ocean?Michael talks with author James Russell about the real spark behind his podcast; Mad Surf Stories - those unforgettable car park conversations where local surfers share the kind of stories that never make the mainstream. From near-death experiences and ocean rescues to fear, aging, flow state, and the lessons hidden inside heavy surf moments, this conversation speaks to anyone who loves the ocean and wants to surf smarter, safer, and longer.You’ll hear how storytelling preserves local surf lore, why surfers should take safety gear more seriously, and what happens when experience, fear, and age all collide in the lineup. James also shares insights from his own surfing life, his writing, and the deeper emotional threads that run through survival stories at sea.Discover why real surf stories are often the best source of practical wisdom and hard-earned safety lessonsYou’ll learn how fear, preparation, and mindset shape performance in the water, especially as surfers get older.You’ll get a deeper appreciation for the psychology, risk, and addictive beauty of surfing and surf culture.Press play to hear the stories, lessons, and mindset shifts that could help you surf with more awareness, confidence, and respect for the ocean.James' Podcast "Mad Surf Stories" -https://podcasts.apple.com/nz/podcast/mad-surf-stories-podcast/id1861306952https://open.spotify.com/show/4tHYvt9btBdGgB5rwKv0jv?si=e69d777c95bf46cbhttps://youtube.com/@madsurfstories?si=BH8FCHs6D_4RADApJames' website:https://dragonbrothersbooks.comTranscript:What inspired you to start the podcast?Yeah, , I guess it's those car park conversations with surfers, , where you talk to somebody and they just tell you something crazy that's happened to someone.And I thought. That's pretty cool. Like, to, to mine those stories would be awesome to be able to do that. , Yeah, I think that's kind of it really. 'cause they're, they're all local, you know, there's those legendary stories that might be, a Piha story or whatever, and everyone Piha knows it, but nobody else does.Hmm. And , when you get a bit long in the tooth, like me, you, you come across quite a few of them. Yeah. But yeah, the, the challenges to, , to get people to talk really. 'cause some of the surfers are like, , maybe they've had a shocker and they're a bit ashamed of it. Mm. So that's, that's the challenge really.But, , actually it's been really interesting 'cause a lot of the, , a lot of the kind of stories, there's been some quite good lessons come out of them, I think for, for listeners or for me or for whoever. Oh, definitely. . Good examples like Elliot Foot.And he, , suggested that if you're going to Indo and you're gonna be taking these ferries between islands, you get yourself an E and you buy that ether in your own country rather than in Indonesia. 'cause then when it pings, it goes back to your own country and you know, those people are gonna. Be on top of it and they're gonna call the into authorities.And I thought, you know, that's gold. That sort of info is, is gold, you know? Yeah, definitely. That he was swimming for two days, you know? Yeah. And, and it would've been.I've already got one of those. 'cause I do a bit of, bit of hunting, so I always have one in, in the backpack. You, you are almost, you're almost silly not to have one nowadays with given what we know. And you just gotta realize that, I mean, any sort of tourism operator in most countries, you know, there's regulations and you know that the captain of the boat will have one of those on them, and there's regular maintenance schedules of their equipment, blah, blah.None of that happens in Indonesia. So you, you kind of gotta have one of those with you just in case.Yeah, but keep in mind, Michael, you've, you are coming from the point, you know, you go, you're a hunter, so you go hunting and you bring this with you. I hadn't even considered that. Like, I think I've, I think they only came on my radar about two years ago when I was in an outdoor shop and I saw one.I was like, what's that? So I, I didn't even know what they were really, because I've never, you know, I've never done that much stuff. I've done, you know, I've done some stuff in the mountains, but I've been with other guys that, you know, they've probably got one in their pack, but they don't even think to mention it to me.So. Yeah, a lot of people wouldn't even think about it. And plus they're quite expensive. Right. How much do you pay for one? , Five, 600, something like that. Yeah, I think, I think I was 400 and it's just a basic e perb, like a signal. But , you can get, Garmin have devices that are similar but a little bit bigger that actually double as satellite phones, so.Right. You, even if you're out outside of normal signal and your iPhone's not gonna work, you've still got GPS signal. So you can immediately tell where you are and you can send a signal out, you can text message, I think you can even call on some of the more modern ones, and they're only a couple hundred bucks more and they have, you know, multiple uses.Now it's just be good to have one just in your house, you know? Yeah. No, it's good. I, um, I haven't had a, a big. A little while, but I think I might make the investment before I do, you know? Yeah, it's funny. Surfers are funny, aren't they? You spend 1200 bucks on a new board, but yeah, I'm not gonna spend 800 bucks on a safety device that'll last, last me a lifetime in case something happens.Well, come on. Yeah. Yeah. And by our nature, you know, we do, we go to these places and I mean, I guess no one's gonna surf with one, but, I wonder, you know, maybe, maybe one day that's, that could be a, that could be a good product to have when you're surfing. You know, something that if they get smaller and smaller, something that you could tuck into your wetsuit or something.Yeah, , there's a guy here in Auckland that I've been trying to get a hold of, he was out surfing at Kar Beach and it was big and he got swept down the coast and he ended up just getting battered into the rocks like terribly, like the bones were sticking out of the wounds.Oh. And he's so far hasn't agreed to talk to me, but hopefully he will. 'cause it's an amazing story. He ended up getting stranded on the rocks, , and the tide was coming in and he thought, okay, I'm just gonna have to jump back off and get back into this. And did that. He ended up getting washed down to another beach and was so broken up he couldn't even stand.He just had to scratch out a giant help in the sand, which was seen by some people walking along the clifftop. Oh wow. And that's how he got rescued, you know. Oh, wow. Gnarly man. Incredible. Yeah, yeah. There's some crazy stories out there and no, it's pretty awesome that you're, you're doing this I've listened to every episode , and I think it's, I think it's awesome. Yeah. Great, nice to hear. Yeah. So let's start from the beginning, right? When did you start surfing? I was a late starter I think.Like, you too, right? I started after I left school, I was down at Otago University. , And for your listeners that, dunno where that is, that's, , the bottom of New Zealand. So it's cold and plenty of swell from the Southern Ocean. . I was a pretty capable swimmer, pretty decent in the water, but yeah, never surfed, kind of never been on my radar and just fell in with a group of lads that were surfers.And, , grabbed a, got a border and a wedding and never looked back. Just loved it. Yeah. Ah, cold water. I spent a lot of time like it, , I spent so many years just cartwheeling down the face of huge waves , and just freezing cold, you know, holes in my wetsuit kind of stuff. Snowing on the beach sometimes.So I don't think I learned very quickly like it was a challenging situation to learn down there. 'cause there's. You know, it's often big, but, yeah, a lot of fun. Yeah, it's an amazing, amazing spot. Great waves. Oh yeah, describe to me your current relationship with the ocean and surfing.Well, I'm a writer, an author, so I've primarily of children's books. But, these two here are my, , I've got two, , novels for adults as opposed to adult novels, but those are both surf. Novels and they were my, , lockdown project really during COVID. , And because I'm an author, I can drop everything and go surfing whenever I like.I, I'm full-time. So, , I tend to do that. And then I'll, you know, I might work late at night or on the weekend or whatever, but if the surf's good, I can go. So, living in Auckland means you got access within an hour to both coasts. . Which is cool. We haven't had much on the east coast lately, but , west Coast is pretty consistent, and weirdly you'd think that Auckland would be quite crowded, but there's so many options, you know, so it's actually not that bad.You can usually find a wave on your own or just with a couple others. So yeah, it's good. It's a good place to live. It's not incredible surf, but yeah, it's pretty good. Yeah. I lived in Auckland for a couple of years and got heaps of good relatively uncrowded waves. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've got a few secret spots., I've got one on the east coast that you can only get to by boat, so when there's swell I'll go there. Yep. , And I've never, never surfed it with anybody else, so I, that's my, , I find the older I get the, the less I, uh, or the more I avoid crowds. So I don't tend to go to Raglin or any of those places very much., Just look for the spots that I know will be good and I don't mind if they take me a little bit of extra time to get there, a bit of a hike or boat ride or whatever. Yeah. So, uh, it's worth it, , and plus I've got the time and the means, you know, so it's good. Yeah. Adventure surfing. Yeah, yeah, I should get the right.I went surfing and uh, I went surfing at the spot on the west coast. , And I was out, I was on my own. It was cooking, it was really good. And, um, just small, but really punchy. And, and then I looked, I looked back on the beach and the beach was kind of a long way away. It was a long sort of. Long flat beach and then suddenly drops off.I saw this log where I thought was a log and there was heaps of seagulls on top of it, and I thought, oh yeah, that's interesting. And then all these people came around, the headland are wearing hazmat suits and carrying these big, you know, machetes and all kinds of stuff. And , it turns out the log was a enormous sperm whale.That had washed up on the beach. Mm. And one of my mates is a, shark specialist and a under underwater cameraman. And he gave me, he told me, he said, don't surf there. Don't surf there for the next month or more. Because when the whales die on the beach, all of the kind of juices flow down into the sand and leach out into the sea.And the sharks just love it, you know? Oh yeah. And I've seen sharks a couple of times at this place before. , But it was, again, a bit of a learning for me. You know, I had no idea that that was the case. That yeah, I mean, it, it makes sense really. But I didn't, I thought if they washed right, it was right up past the, , on the high tide mark.I thought if it was up there all good, you know, I never really thought of the breakdown of the animal and how it goes out to see, you know? Yeah. That's another, another. Good. I didn't know that either actually. Yeah. Yeah. Avoid it. Avoid it until it's long rotted and gone, you know? Yeah. What were they doing in Hazmats when?Oh, that was the iwi, you know, that was the, um, iwi. They were up from re and they were coming down and they were, , taking the jawbone of the whale out for carving. Um, but all the big chunks of blubber just get buried on the beach, so that all just breaks down and seeps out into the water.Oh, gnarly. So do you have any personal mad surf stories?Uh, nothing crazy, . Just the normal getting whipped out in a rip and freaking myself out for 20 minutes until I figure out a way to get back in. Just stuff like that, you know? Yeah. A few, uh, a few rescues have overturned kayaks and bits and pieces.Oh yeah. But I reckon most, I reckon most surfers have saved a few people, you know? Mm. Yeah. I think we're a, I think we're a, , and in fact, I dunno if you listened to my episode with, um, will Allen, he's the, he was a doctor, he was a trainee doctor at the time in Dunedin. And a surfer. And he did this incredible rescue, , off Tyre mouth where they were just about to get in the water and they saw there was an upturn boat and they went out to it., Rescued a mom, a dad, and there was a, a young 12-year-old girl who was, whose life check the boat was completely upside down their life check. It was caught on something in the boat and he had to free her up. Then mouth to mouth with her on the way and CPR on the way back to shore. And unfortunately, one of the, , there was a baby still caught in the boat, , who died.But um, yeah, so he's gone on to do a lot of work, , around drowning. , And a lot of training of surfers because he realizes that, , surfers are often the ones that come across these people first or may drag them out of the water first. So, yeah, that, that was an interesting one. . And I think, you know, it's like, I mean, I guess most people do a, a first aid course probably, , from time to time, you know, but as a surfer, having that staff and having that knowledge is.You know, good chance you'll get to use it at some point. Yeah, I did all that stuff. I, as a qualified surf coach in Australia, went through all that stuff and, and then of course the breath hold training stuff for bigger waves. A lot of that sort of incorporated in it too, so I've never had to use it, I don't think, per se.I can't think of an instance where I have had,, but invaluable, , information to, to have for sure. 'cause otherwise you just feel helpless. Right. And that's even worse. Yeah. Potentially. But yeah, that was, that was for sure. Yeah. That was an hourly story. Yeah. I listened to that one on the weekend actually.I've listened to all of them. Yeah. There's been some pretty heavy, , kind of psychological implications from a lot of these guys that I've spoken to. Daniel Pool, who was caught in the Indian Ocean, the tsunami, the Boxing Day Tsunami. . When he had to, , when he had to wa he was kind of looking after his group of people and he walked past, he had to walk past a bust that had been overturned possibly with people in it, you know, and he still thinks about it to this day, whether.He should have peeled off and tried to help those people rather than looking after his own group. You know? 'cause he kind of, he was kind of leading them really, and looking after them. Yeah. But yeah, a lot of, a lot of hard stuff to deal with, you know, and that And Will Ellen having to deal with the loss of that baby?, Yeah, it's heavy. Some of the stories have been so heavy, like they've gone a whole lot deeper than I ever kind of thought, you know? Yeah, I need to, I need to uh, get a few more people, , that just have tales of awesome exploration. , I don't know, maybe taking a yacht through window or something like that, or traveling the African coast or whatever.'cause most of them have been pretty heavy, , disasters. Really? Yeah. They have been. Yeah. But they're good. Like what, what's the South African guy who was like. His was the most gnarly, right. I reckon in, yeah. Turns survival. Yeah. Brett Archibald. Yeah. Yeah. His survival story. Wow. Like and he is such a good storytelling.Yeah. Elliot and his mates. Yeah. Elliot and his mates had surfboards and they did two days and he did, he didn't have one. Right. So he just fell overboard when he was. He was throwing up on deck from a bad Cals only. Yeah. And then he blacked out and fell overboard. It's terrible. Oh yeah. Goodness. Oh, , his uniqueness of character is probably what saves him ultimately, right?Yeah. Yeah. He would just, he would give up and then he'd go, no, I'm not giving up. And he'd, you'd swim to the surface again, you know? Yeah. It's incredible. Even the doctor said, like, what? He purposely swam into some jellyfish 'cause he wanted to give up and that's, you know, that allergic reaction gave him an adrenaline rush, which then made him fight again.Yeah. You know, sends you on things like that. Like, like what, what a story. I came across his story on a, on another podcast and. I was blown away by it, but it was kind, it was called, um, and it's a good one to listen to. It's called Real survival stories. Dunno if you've come across it, but, you know, guys getting caught in the mountains or, you know, their hang gliding and their glider gets blown up into a cloud or all this mad stuff.It's really good. But, , but the, the host of that podcast, um, this guy John Hopkins, he pretty much tells the story and then just drops in little, , little bits of recordings from the person that happened to. But I really liked Brett telling that story in his own words, you know? . It was, he's quite, quite a character, you know, and he's a good sense of humor, but he is just to hear, you know, that, that, that's the thing, like those stories in the carpark, when you hear it from the horse's mouth, it's just like, whoa.It just blows you away. Oh yeah. There's another guy, there's another guy I wanna get hold of that, , that I don't even know his name. I can't even, I, I haven't been able to track him down like this. Never made, I don't think it ever made the news or anything, but. There's a place called Lake Ferry up in, , near Palace Bay.Bottom of the North Island. Yep. And it's, I don't know if you've ever been there, but it's just the steepest, gnarliest beach. And when the waves like, you know, the, you sort of need the, , the water to empty out of this lake to create a little bar for the waves to break on. And then. That'll get blocked up again and the waves will wash this bar away and then it's just pounding on the beach.But the problem with it is like, the waves can be amazing, but the problem is when you go to go in, because the, the beach is so steep, the waves just rear up right on the beach, slam into these stones and then suck back out. So you gotta time it perfectly to get up the beach. And I had a friend that went out on like a three foot day, three, four foot day, and he said it took him 20 minutes to get in.And there was a guy that, , went out, it was like eight foot and he just couldn't get in. And it took, he was out there for hours, people, and he, his board broke and then people chucked him another one and it was just mayhem and he couldn't get in. I think, I think they send a chop to get him out of the water in the end, like he couldn't get in.Yep. Wow. Crazy stuff. Yeah. So if you hear of him, Dylan might wanna talk to him. Yeah. Well may maybe he's listening in and he'll reach out. Yeah. Yeah. We surf, there's a similar, not as, the beach isn't as steep here along Marine Parade, but it is very steep shingle and we have river mouths. Yeah. That when the river floods, it pushes a, a u-shaped, , barreling wave or bar out there for the whale waves to barrel on.And the waves get Really? Yeah. I've surfed, I've surfed. I know the one you're talking about. I've surfed. , That one. , There's a good story there too. Um, a young fellow who got whipped out in the, uh, in the river, and they picked him up 17 kilometers out to sea. Oh, wow. He's yet to talk to me too.Yeah. Oh, okay. Oh, wow. You haven't heard that one? I thought that was legendary in your area. Oh, it doesn't, it doesn't ring a bell, but I'm not surprised. Yeah, well it was crack of dawn, you see, and he was on his own and it had been pouring with rain and the river was honking. You know, you gotta swim across the river or paddle across the river to get to the, to this break you're talking about.Yeah. And he just didn't make the other side. He just oof gone. Yep. And next thing. And it was just howling offshore and he, he was almost blind when they picked him up. There's some footage of a, of the helicopter coming to get him. So someone was filming on the as they came in to pick him up. Yeah. And he was 17 Ks off offshore.Oh, wow. And he tried to paddle to Cape Kidnappers and tried all kinds of stuff and just, just got nowhere. Oh, gnarly. Oh yeah. There's a lot of water coming out of those rivers when they flood, man. Yeah. Yeah. I've, I learned a pretty hard lesson there. You, you need the water for the bar, don't you? Exactly.Yeah, . Oh yeah. When I was younger, I remember pulling up to a river mouth and it was flooded and there was a nice swell running, and the waves looked like they were pumping, like just top to bottom barrel, like pitch black inside the barrel. It's how you know, like the kind of pitches you draw at school.Yeah, and there was no one surfing. And I was like, okay, I am out there. And I'd probably only been surfing for maybe three, four, maybe five years. And this was back when I was young. And i'd broken my leash, so the only leash, leg rope I had. Was was a longboard leash that had been stretched out, must have been 11 foot long, but it was the only le leg rope that I had.And I was like, I'm out there paddled across. And I just remember paddling into my first attempt, or the only attempt, the first wave. And because the, the rivers. Pushing out and it creates the bar for the wave to break on, break on, but it actually creates a lot of draw. So it kind of breaks like an extreme, extreme rip bowl, which makes the wave better and more rippable and when it's manageable, but it also makes it a lot harder to paddle into.Yeah. And I was so excited 'cause the waves looked pumping and I was inexperienced and I tried to paddle into this wave and immediately just went over the handlebars, slammed down into the gravel, and then I'm, now I'm in a flooded river. Getting sucked underneath and then the surfboard wraps around me like this and around my arms.'cause I'd, I went to go and, you know, put my hands over my head, but I didn't have time. 'cause by the time my arms got to here, the surf, the leash, the leg ropes wrapped around my arms couldn't move. Starting, it's pulling tight and then the surfboard's like doing this 'cause it's wrapped around me. It's here.I've still got a scar on my nose from it, so I'm getting, I'm wrapped up in my own leg rope of , couldn't move. My arms being dragged along the gravel bottom on a flooded river. Seconds after I thought I was gonna get the best barrel of my life. And yeah, I thought it was gone. I thought that was it.I couldn't move. That's cool. I'm getting dragged under. I don't know how long I was under for, um, it was probably only 30 seconds, but it felt like minutes and I guess eventually I just got to a point where the river started to dissipate into the ocean. , And the tension on the leg rope started to ease and I was able to wriggle free and swim up.I came up and everything was, like I had red glasses on and I didn't, you know, I didn't breathe in any water or anything. I was, I ended up being fine, but it was, yeah, you're on the edge. It was an intense experience. It was a hard lesson to learn. Yeah, I reckon that's freakish. That is freakish.Yeah. Actually, I listened to one of your episodes, there just the other day. , And it was, can you still get better when you're, you know, when you're getting old? Because I'm 50, what am I 52 now? And I reckon I've kind of been getting better because I started late. I don't think I got to that really good level.It took me a long time. So I, I don't know, maybe it's a good thing to start late 'cause it is quite enjoyable thinking that you're still getting better even when you're like. Nearly 50, but I reckon that's changed and started to go downhill a bit for sure in the last three years. But your episode was quite inspiring, but my boy, I've got two boys, one's 18, one's 16, and, uh, they like a bit of juice now, you know?And the last time I went out with the two of them, it was big, you know, it was gruy and I got absolutely owned. I got a, got a huge one. Wiped out on a big one and then got two or three really beautiful ones right on the head, like they're kind of progressively smaller, these waves as I was coming in, which meant they just landed right on me and shit.I was like, oh my, am I gonna die here? Like I was actually really, really worried and I cut. I just groveled and had to sit on the beach for a little while to collect myself, but it was quite a lesson. I was like, oh, could you know, 10 years ago that would've been all right? It would've been fine. It would've been rattled, but.I was like, oh, that was close. You know, I was seeing stars here. Yeah. So that's, yeah. Getting old sucks. What are you gonna do? Yeah, it does, it does. But I mean, I, if you're gonna surf waves of consequence, you you have to train for it, don't we? I don't think at any age. I don't think it's escapable at any age.Obviously when you're young, you're, you know, a bit more rubbery and, and fit naturally. But, uh, yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you found that episode inspiring. Yeah, tell me though, your breath hold. Can you increase your breath hold when you're my age? Of course. Yeah. Yeah, think so? Oh, definitely a hundred percent. I used to be able to do like two minutes underwater or even a little more, you know, 60 meters in a pool or something.But now that's, yeah, I don't know. I can't do anything like that. You triple. Quadruple your breath. Hold within one training session if you're, if you want to. I've done that with Nam Baldwin. A lot of it's just mindset and having the ability to Yeah. Right. To control your nervous system.'cause what uses up, what uses up all the oxygen is you freaking out. Yeah. Really. So if you, which is what I was doing. Yeah. Yeah. So going through a course. Like I, I went through back in the day with, with Nam where, you know, you sit down for a couple hours and you go through the science and then you jump in the pool and you go through the practicalities and you put it into practice.Just changes the game really. So the answer is yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah, definitely. But, you know, go need to come over and have a session with you. Like I, I, I get quite, I'm quite fascinated with that fear side of things, i've done loads of sports, but I've never, I think surfing is the one that's given me the greatest level of fear.'cause I mean, you know, I've done, I've, I've skied to a pretty high level and we were jumping off some pretty high stuff, but you sit at the top and you can, you can check all the factors and then you can psych yourself up and then you can go, you know? , But with, and I've done some whitewater kayaking, which was kind of scary, like when you go over waterfalls and things, but.Surfing's a bit more outta control, right? 'cause you can't, you don't know what's gonna happen when you paddle over that wave and see what's coming at you. There's no control there. Even with a river and you're kayaking, you can sit up above a rapid for a while and get yourself sorted, pick your line, all of that stuff.But, and, and you know that, that water is, even though you know, surfing is kind of a unique sport, and that two things are moving you and the medium that you are, you know, that you are working in and kayaking. It's moving as well, but it's moving in a uniform way. It doesn't, doesn't change, but waves, they're moving along and the, the bathymetry of the bottom changes, suddenly the just, , the bottom will drop out or whatever will happen.. But that, that fear is, um, I've always found it fascinating. You know, I've never been a big wave rider, really. You know, I'm pretty uncomfortable once it gets up, past six foot, to be honest, like I'm like. I'm, I'm happy there, but anything bigger than that, I'm like, okay, leave this to the big boys and that, and I just can't believe, I, I just can't fathom how guys can go out and 15, 20 foot, you know?I just, I don't even, it doesn't even compute for me. Oh, yeah. Like, I'm, I'm okay with it. I don't really want to do that, but I just can't believe how brave some people are. You know? But I guess that's, it's doing all those things right? Putting the training in place and doing the psychological stuff and getting the breath hold and the whole thing.It doesn't just happen. You gotta build up to it. Yeah, there's a lot of work that goes on behind the scenes. I've only really done it once where I surfed an outer reef that was, you know, triple overhead. And when you surf the outer reefs, the swell itself is just moving so much faster. So it, it's, it's almost like a different sport.And I trained for, I was in the gym, you know, three times a week for a year doing breath holding courses and training and. To leading up towards that winter to surf one of these swells. And I mean, I, I don't think I'd ever do it again. I don't regret nothing happened, nothing bad happened. , I got some of the best waves of my life and surfed the, some of the biggest waves of my life.But the come down the next day, like, yeah. The body obviously really sore 'cause you're getting thrown around. But just the depression man from you, you, you end up going so high surfing these waves. 'cause it's like surfing but everything's intensified. And the depression the next day is something that I don't, in hindsight, I don't know if it was worth it when you weigh up the risk that you, you know, the work that took to get there, the risk that you're, you're taking to do it.The come down afterwards and the desire to do it again. 'cause that adrenaline rush is next level. Like those guys that do big wave surfing like that on a regular basis, they're, they're, they are different animals, man. They're different machines. Yeah. Sounds like a drug addiction, doesn't it? It's certainly, well a lot of them end up, you know, doing that as well.Yeah, true. A lot of stories in surfing of, of that as well. But I mean, yes, you can get better as as you get older, but I think it, it matters on how do you define better? Do you know? Do you know what I mean? Like, is it surfing a different Yeah. What, what is the style of surf? Because I think for years, myself included, I was a victim, maybe that's not the right word, but also.The surf industry was telling me what board to ride, what style of surfing to do, do you know what I mean? I you constantly fear of being judged, so when you go no stuff, all that. I just want to, I just, I'm happy get taking a bigger board and going and surfing over there where no one else is surfing and catching the novelty waves, but getting 20 of them in 20 minutes.Because no one else is there, rather than going over there and trying to get three to the beach off the crowd. So that's part of it too. , And you mentioned, yeah, I mean, PE people say buy a longboard, but I, I find longboarding boring as shit. I want to still ride my shortboard, still want to try and get barreled if I can., That's where, that's the super exciting stuff, but it's just annoying when you're like. On a good wave and you're like, oh, I might hit the lip here, and you'll just blow it and you just know because you haven't, you're not fit enough or you haven't done enough surfing or you, you're just getting old and your reactions are slow., My kids skateboarded and uh, when I was about 40, I reckon, or. Maybe, yeah, about 40. I was like, oh, I used to be able to do a bit of this. Go on the skateboard. Like the reactions when you fall, you just don't have those same, like they just sort of step off. But I would get flat onto the pavement, you know, that's, I was just, my reactions are way too slow.. And there's nothing much you can do about that. I think, you know, that's just, just a factor of getting old. You probably get a little bit wiser as a surfer in terms of. Reading what a Wave's gonna do and setting up a little earlier, you know, in fact, I'm sure when you see Kelly Slater trying to do hes and stuff, he doesn't pull many of them off anymore.. You know, but he, but put 'em in 10 foot pipe. He's like the man, you know, he can just slot it just beautifully. But when he is trying to do these tricky little maneuvers on small waves, he's just not quick enough. He doesn't have that reaction time like he used to. . Yeah. But he's a good example of someone who hasn't let go of, you know, he still wa he, I guess in, there's probably a small part of Kelly Slater's that still wants to be able to beat Philippe, Felipe Toledo and be as fast and as quick as him.Yeah. And I'm sure that just though, really, like there's no way. Yeah. And it, whereas you look at someone like Skip Fry, who's just happy to, to Highline on a glider. Style in his, in his eighties, you know? Yeah. And he's, and Joel t will say he's the best surfer in the world. So it's, it kind of of does depend on your perspective and what you think better is, and it's, you do have to have quick reactions in some ways, but also I think as you get older, as a surfer, you get better at predicting the waves.So there isn't a need for quick reactions because you're just better at predicting the wave anyway. Yeah. I guess it depends on what feels the best to you on a wave. Like what feels the best to me is if I go up and hit the lip and do a turn, I'll go shit that felt good. You know? That's what I like doing.And it's, it's the, it's the stuff of a younger man really to do it really well. I mean, of course we can do it, but those, the guys that are doing it the best are the young men, you know? So I'm never gonna be able to hit the lip like I could when I was 40 or 45 maybe. 'cause I think I still was getting better at that point.But. You know, it's only downhill from here. I think, like I'm happy to be proved wrong, but I think the more, if I want to maintain that, you've gotta train much harder, I reckon, as you get older. Oh yeah. In order to maintain the same level, you know, and that's, that's time and effort. And , someone will go, do you want a beer?Come around for a beer or whatever. I'll be like, okay, you know? Here's some canon beer on a cracker, and I'll have a couple of those. Next thing you know, I get on the scales in a week and I'm like, oh geez, I put on a couple of kilos. Yeah, over Christmas, whatever. You just get a bit relaxed, I think, and you don't burn off the, you don't burn it all off like you used to, and it, it requires more effort, you know, requires more discipline, more effort, more time, probably, I think, than when you're a young man.That's the way it goes though. I'm alright with it. I'm at peace. I know I don't sound like I am, but I am. I still enjoy it. Yeah, that's, I mean, that's the main thing, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But you mentioned fear and that that does come a lot into it, especially, I think a lot of surfers don't even realize how scared they are because a lot of the, I think a lot of the fears that we have of surfing is, is sort of unconscious because your brain.Whether you, you realize it or not, your brain knows how dangerous the ocean is. , You might not realize that you're essentially a victim of a shark attack or a tsunami to, to think of the extremes. But then of course, everyone knows there's a rogue set every hour. And there's, you maybe didn't read that rip properly or someone ditches their board in front of you or, I mean, the, the list of ways that things can go wrong when you're surfing is, is endless.And whether you are consciously aware of that doesn't matter. 'cause your brain is, and if you haven't prepared or consciously thought through those risks, then that's essentially taking away from you entering a flow state. And when we enter a flow state. That's when your reaction times, uh, switched on and where you're not necessarily Yeah.Thinking. So it is to do with that, and I think everyone feels that. Yeah. And you feel that sometimes when you surf. Right? Sometimes I, , it'll be big and I'll go to paddle in and then I'll pull back and I'll be like, oh, what I pull back for, you know, you know, I know that I'm scared. Like I, , the bottom's dropped out and I'm looking at a, you can see the reef, and I'm like, holy shit.But then other times you're just like. You know, I, I don't, you don't seem to feel any fear. Like, and you just, your feet hit the middle of the board every time and it doesn't seem to make much sense, but I know what you mean. That flow state is awesome and it's kind of one of the, I guess one of those things that, it's one of those reasons that we keep coming back.Surfing's such, like, there's so much hard work for kind of small reward. I mean, it's all, it's not small reward, but those times that you hit that flow state or get that perfect wave or get barreled or sew. For me anyway. They're so rare that it's like a gem, ? It's like a golden moment. It's like, oh my God, it's amazing.You know, that, that, that happened today. You'd be buzzing for days after it, you know, after one. It could be one good wave. Yes, and I've got this really weird, um, I've talked to my mates about this. It's kind of weird. I, I can remember waves from when I was 18 or 19 or, you know, all of, you know, for the last 30 years I can remember particular waves that I've had.And I tell them, they're like, what are you talking about? Like, I can't remember individual waves, but I can remember those waves. It's really weird. But it's just those times where everything comes together, you're like, whoa, I surfed that like a guy that's been much better than me. You know?And that just like gives you that little glimpse of what, what might happen a bit more often if you keep going. Yeah. Yeah. You keep going. Sounds a bit like a drug addict, doesn't it? Yeah. But it's a, it's a healthy addiction vibe if you can manage it. Yeah, of course it is. Yeah. No, I'm save selfish creatures though, that's for sure.Like I, you know, as a, I'm sure so many surfers will relate to this . Your misses will go, oh, , where are we going holidays this summer, or should we go there? And you're like, there's no, there's no serious thing. We're not going there. Oh yeah, that sounds all right. But what about this? And you'll manipulate and you'll squeeze and you'll suggest, and you'll go, oh, there's no batch., There's no batches available there. We better go to this other place instead. And you leave it too late so there's no accommodation or whatever. But we're terrible manipulative, , like drug addicts are, oh, that's all right. It's surfing. It's gotta be done. You gotta have something, right? Yeah.Yeah. I do feel sorry for all those, , well, women and men, they have to suffer for, for their surfer in their life. Well, most people like the beach, right. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. That's, that's, that's all we, we've got all these, yeah, we've got all these incredible like great walks in New Zealand, like world renowned walks.I haven't done a single one of them 'cause for the last 30 years, anytime I get a bit of time off, I go to the coast. Haven't done a single walk. Milford track the root band. Not a single of them. Terrible. Oh yeah. I think I'm the same. But you've probably been to more beaches than most people. Yeah, I'd say so.Yeah. I got a, I got a chart on my wall of all the places I've surf and it's, it's pretty full. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it keeps you, you know, motivated to get up early and, you know, stay fit and strong, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's that, , it's that quest to find that, um. That empty wave, that perfect wave somewhere is just so strong.Like with, without anyone else around. Actually, that's, so the, , my book mine that is the kind of, that's kind of the, uh, the motivation behind it. So have you read this? No. Have you read mine? So mine is, , I don't know if you remember about six or seven years ago, um, there was a guy called John Chow and he was an American missionary and he went to this island in the Indian Ocean called the, north Sentinel Island.Do you hear of this? No. So North Sentinel is this, , tiny little island and the Enderman Sea. Indian Ocean. Yeah. And it's part of that group, of the Nicobar Islands. And it's, so they reckon the people that lived there have been there 60,000 years without any human contact from the outside or very little.So John Chow went there 'cause he heard about them and he thought, well they need to be, you know, I'm a missionary. They need to be turned to Christianity. He turned up and they murdered him on the beach. And the Indian government, which, , administers that part of the world wouldn't even pick up his body.So because they were, they just. Won't be contacted. If you try and go there, they'll fire at you with bows and arrows. They're amazing. When I heard about this, I just went down this rabbit hole, and if you look, if you go to North Sentel Island on Google Maps and you zoom in on it, and the south of the island are two of the best surfing setups I think I've ever seen.It's like a mirror image breaking into this path and , it's perfect. And every time that Google updates this image, it's just better every time. It's unbelievable. It looks so good. So I was like, whoa, that's a good set setting for a book. But I had to come up with this. So I came up with this Aussie guy who's, his life's kind of turning to shit and Aussie, and he goes to Indo and he's just sickened by the tourists and the crowds and the filth, and he just keeps going up, up, up the archipelago., And he ends up going to, he meets this fisherman who can, who brings him to North Sentinel. And then I had to come up with this premise that would be believable. Why he would not be killed if he ended up on the island. And , I won't tell you, I won't tell you what that is, but he ends up on this island in every surfer's dream of paradise with nine different, perfect waves on it.Wow. And , chaos ensues. So it's quite interesting. , Yeah, it's, it's been, it's been, , an awesome kind of journey with that book. Like it, you know, I, I. Get told about people that have taken it on, on board their surf charter for 10 days and it's gone through every single one of their mates, , as they're going around surfing these waves in this area.So, , yeah, so that's one of the books. And the other one is Lines, which is set in Ireland. 'cause I lived in Ireland for eight years and , kind of got a little bit involved in the surf scene there. , I've set that one in a, kind of the backdrop as a kind of brutal Dublin criminal drug smuggling gang, , and the waves on the West coast.So, yeah, they've been fun. Oh, cool. Yeah. I think I've listened to a few chapters inadvertently at the end of your, your podcast. Oh, yeah. Cool. I'll send you the book. Cool. I'll post it over to you. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Is it the, the Aussie guy who came upon his father? I remember that chapter in the garage. Oh, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.Gotcha. That was heavy. That's from mine. That one's from mine. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, that was actually, weirdly, there's a, , I think there's a movie coming out, a Kevin Costner movie called Head Hunters. And apparently it's about a guy, a surfer in Indonesia who's real sick of everything and goes and finds this perfect paradise island with perfect surf on it.Like, hold on a minute. That sounds like my story. So I'm waiting for it to come out before I sue. You know, you might get some royalties in the post. Yeah, yeah. Hopefully. I doubt it. So do I. You gotta, , you gotta go to LA and pitch your idea. Yeah. Too late probably. Yeah. There is, , some movie interest in the, , in the Lines book though.Oh yeah. There's some people looking at making that to a film. That's kind of all I can say at the moment. Yep. And apparently if anything gets ever gets made into a film, it's a miracle. So I'm kind of crossing my fingers, but not really we'll. . Yeah. I think it's a lot to do with who you know in the industry.Yeah. So it's getting the money. Yeah. Have all the guys with the good ideas, but unless someone goes, yep, yeah, I'll give you the money, it's not gonna, exactly. Yeah. Ideas are a dime a dozen, they say, and you only have to change something, what, 20% anyway. Right. And then you lose all. Legal rights anyway, so Dunno about that.Yeah, I think that's the case. Kevin Costner, hopefully he only changed to 15%.Oh, I say you're smarter than that. Yeah. Or his lawyers are. Yeah, they certainly are. That's how the world works. Well, , I encourage people to go out and listen to your podcast. Yeah, thanks. Yeah. Tell us what it's called and where to find it. It's called Mad Surf Stories. It's on, apple Podcasts. , It's on Spotify and put 'em on YouTube as well.Awesome. , I've listened to every episode and I'm looking forward to hearing more. Yeah. And actually if anyone out there has got some mad surf stories, get in touch. I need some more. I've run out at the moment. I need some more people to come and have a chat to me. Okay. Have you reached out to Rob Bain?Rob ba No, he's, what did he do? , He was surfing in New South Wales and jumped off his board, landed headfirst into a rock and basically scalp scalped himself. Oh, that's not good. Yeah, I think he broke his neck as well. Well, it's been a, he, I interviewed him years ago. It's been a while. It was a mad surf story.Was he jumping off a rock or a boat? , You No, I'm just jumping off a wave. Oh, right. Oh no, that's not good. Yeah. Flyaway sort of thing. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, because you often do that, eh? When you, you like right at the end of the wave and you're like, oh, squeeze a bit more juice out of this. Yep. Next thing you know, look.Ooh, that's shallow. Yep. Tom Carroll must have some mad surf stories. Yeah. Oh, there there'd be millions. Yeah, there millions. I just need them to get in touch really. Yeah. Yep. Okay. And how can they get in touch? It was, I got, you can email me [email protected]. And website's same. So if you listen to the podcast. Yeah. www.Dragonbrothersbooks.com. Yep. , And that'll take you to all of my books and stuff, but, , there's a contact form on there. Yeah. Yep. Oh, I'm sure there's at least one person listening that is willing to share a story or knows someone that can, , share Yeah, your email address or this episode too, so, yeah.Yeah. Awesome. Please do. Yeah, and I look forward to hearing more. Nice one. Thanks Michael. Alright, James, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thanks having me. Alright. Sweet. Yeah. Thank you. The Surf Mastery Podcast: For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

136 Why Surfers Don’t Come Out of Barrels (And How to Fix It) - The Neurology of Tube Riding Surf Mastery Podcast Download https://surfmastery.com/barrel-mastery-academyWhat if the reason you can’t come out of the barrel has nothing to do with courage or experience, and everything to do with your brain?Many surfers believe that getting barreled is purely about skill, timing, or bravery. But if you’ve ever felt disoriented inside the tube, struggled to hold your line, or mysteriously fallen when the exit was right there, the real issue might be neurological. In this episode of the Surf Mastery Podcast, Michael Frampton reveals how vision, balance, and body awareness directly affect your ability to stay stable in the barrel, and why training your brain could transform your surfing.Discover why disorientation in the barrel is often a neurological challenge, not a lack of surfing ability.Learn practical tube riding techniques that help you stay balanced, compact, and focused on the exit.Understand how improving your vision, balance, and proprioception can elevate every aspect of your surfing.    Press play to learn the surprising brain-based insights and practical tips that could finally help you ride out of the barrel. Transcript: welcome back or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast, the podcast that helps you to become a better surfer in and out of the water. I'm your host, Michael Frampton, and today we are talking about tube riding, getting barreled, and specifically coming out of the barrel.If you've ever struggled to come out of the barrel, then this one is for you. Tube riding. It looks like the easiest thing in surfing 'cause all you're doing is standing there. There's little movement in tube riding. However, it is the hardest thing in surfing.It's also. The pinnacle of surfing, getting barreled. It scores the highest in competitive surfing and surfers dedicate their lives to traveling the world and getting barreled.I struggled with getting barreled for years, specifically. I actually struggled with coming outta the barrel. Getting into the barrel. Uh, it's not that hard.It is coming out. That's the hard part., And for years I could not figure out why until I had a simple realization.And the realization that I had is that it was a neurological problem, not a lack of courage or experience. See, I was on holiday in New York and went to Ripley's, believe it or not. And as you exit the show, there's a giant spinning tube covered in LED lights and you walk through a bridge to go through it.And after about two steps into this space, I was completely disorientated and felt like I was gonna fall over the edge of the bridge. I was immediately intensely motion sick, essentially in my brain. Basically wanted to go with the spinning tube. I had to close my eyes and, uh, feel my way back out, and I was seasick for quite some time after that.At the time I was actually studying functional neurology as well as struggling with coming outta barrels. So I put two and two together, and I spent some time on improving my vision and my balance and my proprioception. , And two powerful things happened. Firstly, my tube writing became much, much better.I was able to come out of the tube, you see, 'cause the barrel is very disorientating. And if your brain doesn't have the ability to trust its vestibular system or the balance system, when your eyes, when your vision is confused. Then you will fall in the barrel just like I wanted to fall with the spinning tube at Ripley's or not.But when I improved my balance, my vision, my proprioceptive, my neurological inputs to the brain, when I improved those and my brain trusted them more, they became more accurate and faster. Not only was I able to come out of the barrel, everything got better, all of my surfing got better. I just felt more confident and comfortable in the water.I actually also got stronger in the gym and I stopped getting seasick, so I was able to go on a boat trip.And if it wasn't for all that neurological work that I put in, I wouldn't have been able to surf Cloudbreak. You need to go on a boat and if you are motion sick, when you get to a, a wave like that, you're not, probably not gonna paddle out. So I managed to get barreled at Cloudbreak. All because of some simple neurological training.So if you are someone that struggles to come out of the barrel and you're not sure why, , this is most likely the reason. Improving your neurology will not only improve your tube riding,but every single aspect of your surfing, the way you move your posture and even your health, there actually have been studies, about people improving their vestibular function or their balance system. They actually improve their mental health as well as a pub med study all about it.I have just released a group coaching program coming up that will take you through all of this. You'll learn how to assess and improve your vision, balance, and body awareness. We'll go through some practical tips for tube writing as well. To find out more and to register, you can go to surf mastery.com and check out the link there on the homepage.And of course, there will be a direct link to this program in the show notes. I'm more on that at the end, but for now, let's get into some, tube writing tips.Tip number one. This is the obvious one. You've gotta find barreling waves. So you've gotta specifically travel to waves that are known for barrels. Now that might just be a local beach break. , And then within that beach break you need to be selecting the waves that do barrel. Or going outta your way to go to a reef break that is known to barrel.So yeah, you gotta find them. Tip number two. You have to feel comfortable with pulling in and falling and pulling into closeouts. You gotta get comfortable with failure in the barrel. That is key. .Just like anything, the more times we fail, the closer we are to success.If you want to learn to drop in on a vert ramp, you have to first learn to knee, slide and to fall. And if you happen to watch the recent stab in the dark with Kelly Slater, there was a candid look at some of Kelly Slater's surfing and you'd be surprised how many times that he pulls into closeout barrels.'cause if you don't pull in and try, you never know if you're gonna make it. It takes a lot of practice and a lot of failure, so you cannot be afraid to fail.Side note, improving your neurology and especially your body awareness actually will make you safer in the barrel to be ready for what happens, uh, when things go wrong. Tip number three, which segues from there is your true riding stance. So if you've got any kind of poo man stance where your head is forward of the inside rail or your butt is sticking out further than your outside rail, you're gonna get clipped.Yeah. Your butt is gonna get hit by the lip. And in reality, the barrels that you're gonna be going for are going to be small barrels. And the more you can compact yourself into a good tube riding position and keep your entire body over top of your board and centered, and a good functional tube writing stance with your hands in the right place, ready for the board to slip under you.Your hands are there to stop it hitting your face. It just happens to be the right, uh, position to be in the barrel as well. Kind of like a tucked in fighting stance of sorts. Nice and compact. Nice and safe, compact and fitting in the barrel. So we need to have very good and accurate body awareness and strength in that position of a good tube writing stance.I. I recommend practicing in front of a mirror,and of course, we will go into a lot of detail on this during the course. Tip number four, keep your eyes on the exit. We have a tendency to look up at the lip in the barrel. We can get kind of hypnotized and distracted, and of course we tend to go where we are looking.So if you are looking up at the curling lip, your board will drift and you will fall.So keep your eyes focused on the exit. Tip number five. Do not solely rely on your visual field. Instead, we're gonna bring some focus into how it feels. How does your board feel under your feet? How does your body feel in that position? Am I balanced?If your vision is wiped out by a chandelier inside the barrel, will you be able to hold your position and your balance? Your visual field is the first thing to get confused inside the barrel. 'cause the barrel is a very disorientating place to be. So we need to rely on your feel and body awareness.So not only working on your tube riding stance in the mirror, but trying to hold it while you close your eyes. Open them again. See how much of that stance that you have maintained. Again, more on this in the course.Tip number six, listen to the wall. You know when you're trying to listen to someone in another room and you sort of creep up to the door and you move your whole body really close to the door and you slowly just lean your ear in towards the door to almost touch it.Trying not to make a sound. We kind of move our entire body closer and closer, almost touching the wall. Fingertips are just touching ears, just touching. We can do something similar in the barrel. Just lean in to listen to the wall. We kind of lean in. With our whole body, we wanna get nice and close to the wall of the wave.That's a reference point. We can even reach out and touch it to slow down. But we know if we're in a good body position, our butt's not sticking out on the outside rail, and a lot of us is nice and close to the wall. We are less likely to get clipped by what we can't see behind us. So leaning in and listening to the wall, that was a tip that helped me a lot as well.So I hope some of those tips help, and I hope to see you on the course. Again, go to surf mastery.com, or there is a direct link to find out more about the course and to book. It starts up in a couple of weeks,If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend. Thanks for tuning into the Surf Mastery Podcast and until next time, keep surfing. The Surf Mastery Podcast: For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

135: From Presidential Speechwriter to Surfer – David Litt Surf Mastery Podcast Download What happens when a former White House speechwriter, who’s written for presidents and packed auditoriums, decides to humble himself in a cold New Jersey lineup at 35?David Litt isn’t your typical surf author. He joined the Obama White House at just 24 and became one of the youngest senior presidential speechwriters in history, crafting remarks on healthcare, climate change, and even comedy for the Correspondents’ Dinner. After publishing Thanks, Obama and Democracy in One Book or Less, he turned his attention to something far less controllable than politics: surfing.In this episode, David brings a writer’s precision to the chaos of learning to surf as an adult, articulating the fear of hold-downs, the shame of kook moments, the obsession with progression, and the addictive pull of those brief, otherworldly flashes of flow. It’s a refreshing take for surfers: not from a prodigy, not from a lifelong local, but from someone who can actually put words to what most of us only feel.3 benefits you’ll gainA deeper understanding of why surfing feels “more than a sport,” and how chasing flow reshapes your mindset in and out of the water.Practical perspective on fear, embarrassment, and adult progression, especially if you didn’t grow up in the ocean.A renewed appreciation for the lineup as neutral ground, where politics, profession, and identity fall away, and only waves (and humility) matter.Hit play for a thoughtful, funny, and surprisingly relatable conversation that will leave you seeing your own surfing journey, and your next paddle out, in a whole new light.https://www.davidlittbooks.comMichael Frampton: are you still surfing?David Litt: Yeah, I mean, right now I'm in Washington, DC but I was in New Jersey just a couple of days ago and I was out, , actually with my brother-in-law.We, we went out and it was,, good. , It's gotten cold, but it's also gotten less crowded, so it kind of works out. Right. That's the, that's the trade off in Jersey is in the winter, the crowds go away, but , every time you get. You know, you take a set on the head, you have the worst ice cream headache of your life.Michael Frampton: Yeah. It gets cold there. All right. Like really, really cold. Yeah. Ice floating down the Hudson and , into the sea. , David Litt: I think the coldest I've surfed in is probably like 35 degrees. , So what, that's something like. Zero or one. Michael Frampton: Yeah. David Litt: Chelsea Michael Frampton: just David Litt: doesn't, doesn't get much Michael Frampton: colder.Really? David Litt: Yeah. It's basically ice cold. Although it is, it's one thing that I like about surfing on the East coast in the US is one way you can kind of prove that you belong is if you're a new surfer, you don't necessarily need. Skill, if you're willing to show up when it's really miserable out right.You get a certain kind of respect just for being there. , And you get more respect if you can actually surf. I've heard. But, , hopefully , I'll discover that firsthand one day soon. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Well, surfing is a, it's a hard sport. , David Litt: I, I think it's one of those things, if I had known how difficult.Surfing is when I started, I definitely would not have started, , especially at 35 years old. So I'm really glad that I had no idea because I, I've gotten so much out of it. But if I had known how difficult this was gonna be, I never would've signed up for it in the first place. Michael Frampton: So when was the point, like the tipping point of that?Because obviously you were motivated to start and then you got to a point where you're like, oh man, this is how you must have, there must have been times where you thought, I'm just gonna give up. David Litt: Yeah, some of it I think is the cliche, right? That first wave you catch, even if it's just you're in the whitewater and you look back on it a few years later and you're like, maybe that was all of four or five seconds.But there's something pretty remarkable about it, and I think what I really fell in love with quickly was that sense that when you are. Up on a board, you're like in a different dimension, right? I always feel like it's almost like a, like a door to Narnia opens up, right? It's just this different place.And I started surfing at a time in my life where I was pretty, I, I just kind of gotten out of, or was maybe getting out of the only real episode of true depression that I've ever gone through. And it was really, uh, it was really tough. I mean really, really tough. And so I think the idea of being somewhere else was more attractive than ever.And. That absolutely hooked me in, right? That feeling of, okay, you're up on the board, that you're in this entirely new reality. And then. The ride ends and you're like, how do I get back there? Right. That was a big part of it. And I think the other thing honestly was I was surfing with my brother-in-law.He's a good surfer. I knew I was gonna see him for the rest of my life, and I knew that if I chickened out, he would kind of judge me for it. And I was like, I cannot let that happen. And that was a very powerful motivator, right? I talked to other people who learned to surf as an adult without a family member who was always gonna kind of roll their eyes a little bit if they gave up.And I don't know how they do it. Michael Frampton: Yeah, well I think it comes back to that, that original flow state that you felt and you connected with the ocean and your mind went blank for, you know, a few seconds on that ride. And it's that feeling that we, that we chase, it's so much more than a sport. David Litt: Yeah, absolutely.I think it was one of the hardest things in the book actually, because you, you don't wanna call surfing a sport 'cause that seems to diminish it, but then you don't quite know, there's not enough other words to dis, you don't wanna say an activity or a hobby or what, weirdly. Right. Writing a book about surfing, there are lots of challenges, but one of the biggest challenges was when you're describing the category of things that surfing falls into, what do you call it?And I don't even know that I succeeded in that. I think sometimes I just. Said, okay, I'll call it a sport in this sentence. And then, you know, but it was, , every time I did, I felt like it's like, ah, no, it's not quite doing it justice. Right. Michael Frampton: Mm. That's, I think it's, that's part of the allure of surfing.David Litt: Mm-hmm. Michael Frampton: I like to describe, I think it's an art, , simply. David Litt: Yeah. Well, you haven't seen me surf, but yes, it can be. I've certainly seen people surf and think that's, that's, you know, and it is a, it's a. It is a for people when I watch good surfers and I, I didn't, I don't, I wouldn't say that I am, um, especially artistic on a board, uh, yet maybe one day.But I do think I have an appreciation for that art that I didn't have before. So I, I will watch someone now and, and not just say like, oh, they look like they're good at surfing, but have a sense that they're expressing themselves. Via surfing, and that's cool, right? Like there's not a lot of, there's some other sports like that or some other, you know, pastimes, whatever you wanna call it like that.But it's, you know, if you're a, if you're a distance runner, you, it's less about self-expression, I think even though it, there's lots of things to recommend it. Michael Frampton: Yeah. I, I, I think surfing's more akin to. To music because David Litt: mm. Michael Frampton: You, you know, you, there's plenty of good artists or musicians who are very famous and have written great songs, but they're not technically very good musicians.David Litt: Mm. Michael Frampton: Like, like the punk rock era. You know, where they just sort of choose a, a, a line and they stick to it and they get very good at that particular style of music, let's say, but they might not even know what chords they're playing or David Litt: Yeah. Michael Frampton: Anything like that. And I think that's the beauty of surfing is it's definitely a sport if you want to ride a performance shortboard and enter competitions.But, but anything outside of that really, you choose whatever surfboard you like and whatever beach and style of surfing that you like. You can specialize in that and get reasonably pro proficient. You might not be able to go to Hawaii and surf a, a performance shortboard, but man, if you can, you know, ride some, some waist high or, or shoulder high nice waves on a longboard and you do it well, you're, you're still technically an artist and a surfer.David Litt: Absolutely. It's one of the things that I actually struggled with surfing because I tend to be the kind of person who says, okay, you, I'm doing a thing right now. I wanna get better. I want to, you know, keep progressing. Not in the, not in the most technical sense of, you know, I want to be able to pop up on a slightly steeper wave, but saying, okay, what's the next thing?What's the next thing? What's the next thing? And surfing helped me rethink a lot of things in life because with surfing, as you're saying. There sometimes isn't a next thing, right? Sometimes the point of surfing is to do it, and that sounds so obvious. And then at the same time, it's not how I lived the rest of my life, right?When I was at the White House, I was writing for the senior staff and I loved my job. And then I thought, okay, but I'd really love to write for the president. And then I think, okay, what kinds of speeches haven't I written for the president? I want to do that. And, and being driven in that way, I'm not against it.Uh, but it can also drive you crazy if you're not careful. Michael Frampton: But like that, that, that's such a, it's a good analogy because if you're gonna write a speech for the president, you don't have to be a good science fiction writer to do that. You know? You just have to, that's David Litt: true. Michael Frampton: You can compress your writing into a particular direction and actually get good at that.And that's what I think is similar about surfing. I think a lot of surfers that come in, especially, you know, since COVID, a lot of adult learners are coming in and the surfboard industry is just wants you to be a performance short boarder and feed you nothing but Kelly Slater and, and blah, blah, blah. I think that's really puts a lot of people off and makes people not really progress as fast as they should.But when you sort of approach surfing as more of an an, an art form and it's, you choose your path and it doesn't matter, then it's almost makes it easier. It takes a lot of pressure off as well. David Litt: Yeah, I, I think what you're saying, you talked about flow earlier and I think that's such a huge part of surfing for everybody no matter what age, experience level, you know, proficiency level you're at, almost everyone is chasing that flow.And it is true. I feel like boards are never marketed as this will help you, you know, at your level, feel what you're trying to feel. They're all like, you know, it is, it is this, as you're saying, it feels like a path sometimes. , Al although I think the other thing that is. Changing. It's interesting because the, the surf industry I think has been pretty welcoming of all the adult learners 'cause.We're customers? Uh, no question. There's definitely some surfers who are like, wait a second, what are you doing here? And I, I get that. You know, I'm not trying to say that I don't understand it, but I do think it's the, and also some of that, by the way, is jealousy because I wa on my part, um, you know, on the part of adult learners or something fascinating about surfing is, you know, when I see, when I'm in Jersey on a steep day and I have yet to get barreled, that is, uh, it's, you know, I've gotten into the barrel.I've just never gotten out and. I watch, you know, someone get barreled on a like steep, you know, head high wave in jersey at low tide. And I know that they're not just doing something I don't yet know how to do. They're feeling something I've never felt before. And that's kind of, again, different with, with surfing, right?Like if I could run a six minute mile, I don't think I would experience a brand new feeling. I think I'd just be going faster. Whereas if I. Get barreled. I know that's a feeling I just can't describe yet. Know, and that I think is really cool, right? You're always chasing a new, unlocking these new feelings, these new perspectives, these new, it looks different, right?You, you have the sense that the world looks different each time you get to do something on a board you couldn't do before. Michael Frampton: Yeah. It's, , getting barreled is. One, it's far more complex than most people think. There's a lot going on. I'm learning David Litt: that. Yeah. Michael Frampton: In, in the barrel. You know, I, I remember when I first, I'm sure you've been to Ripley's, believe it or not, in New York, and.David Litt: No Michael Frampton: you haven't. Okay. David Litt: No, I didn't know there was one in New York. Yeah. Michael Frampton: Okay. Well, there's a, David Litt: I I grew up there. I feel like that's the kind of stuff that's like tourist stuff we don't Michael Frampton: do. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Touche. But there's, when you, when you exit, there's this giant spinning tube that has a bridge going through it, and there's all these light LED lights on the, on the tube and it's spinning.And I walked, I got about two steps into that tube and I just. I felt like I was gonna fall over the edge. I felt like I was gonna throw up. I had to turn around and go around the other way, and I was motion sick for a couple of days. Like it was a pretty intense experience and it made me realize, oh, that's why I can't get barreled.Because there's a, there's a mismatch in my sensory perception. I, I was, at the time, I was also studying neurology and yeah, there was a mismatch. My, my peripheral sensory and my balanced sensory system knew that I was level, but my eyes were confused at, and I was like, that's the same as the barrel. No wonder I fall off every time I'm in the barrel.So I went through this journey of really lining up my ocular and vestibular with your vision and your balance and that. Only then could I get barreled. So David Litt: interesting. Michael Frampton: You have to have a very, you have to have, almost have like an elite athlete, uh, balance and visual system to be able to go in the barrel because there's so much going on.David Litt: . And like, like everything, right? When you watch people do it and they do it well, it looks so easy. , That's the cha. I was just weirdly, I was, um, listening to the audio book of, uh, a biography of Lorne Michaels, you know, the guy who created and, and still runs, sat live. Michael Frampton: Mm-hmm.David Litt: And one of the, the many, many sort of quotes that he apparently says often is the pro. The problem with making things look easy is that people think it's easy. I think that's definitely, I imagine true of a lot of surfers. My experience so far is, this was last winter. Matt and I were out surfing. I had the, the guts to try to backdoor a wave.I got into the barrel. I had enough time to think, oh, holy crap, I'm in the barrel. And then, uh, my board hit me. Well, I had my hands up. It hit me where my face would've been if my hands hadn't been in front of it. So that's as far as I got. But I was like, oh, this is, I, this feels different. It wasn't transcendent 'cause it was mostly a board hitting me in my face, but it was like, this definitely feels like a new.A new experience. So hopefully, you know, one day I will, uh, I'll get there. Michael Frampton: Yeah, well, like Jerry Lopez says the first 20 years of surfing is just to test whether you're actually interested or not. And, um, David Litt: yeah, well he didn't start at 35, I guess. Michael Frampton: Well, touche Yeah, I was quite a late starter as well, and gosh, it, it was 12, about 12 years into my surfing journey before I really got a proper barrel.So, David Litt: yeah, Michael Frampton: it, it takes time. David Litt: Right. Michael Frampton: Um, one of the, one of the things in the book you say is it's surfing is like a language that's trying to kill you, which is very funny. Yeah. But, but also very apt. David Litt: Well, the, the thing that I, when I started surfing, you know, we've been talking about this, the, this idea that it's hard, but it doesn't look hard when you watch people who are doing it.And so when I started surfing, I thought, okay, you know, I figured things out in my life. Right? You know, you learn, you figure out, all right, you get better at this thing, then you work on this, that other thing. Um, and I've thought about that in other athletic things too, right? I grew up skiing. .It's just as a hobbyist, been a runner for a while, that sort of thing. I wrestled in high school, right? So I thought, okay, it's a sport, it's, you know, you, it's like a language, right? You just kind of learn by building blocks. I didn't appreciate the extent to which there is so much. So much of surfing is dealing with the fear and the kind of visceral panic that ha comes from being a tiny animal in a very big ocean, right?You're just like, oh, my whole evolutionary biology is. Exists to keep me out of here, and now I'm going into here. And that feels very different. And I, and the first time, , the, and I wrote about it in the book. The first time I got held down by a wave of any real size. I just, that was the moment where I was like, oh no, this is, this is not the same even as skiing, right?I say I love skiing, but I say to people, it's like, if every ski run started with an avalanche, right? Like it's a very different experience. Michael Frampton: Yeah. I think that's the, the, the biggest barrier for, for, for people to, or I think it's why people take so long to learn surfing. Mm-hmm. Is the, is the fear.And not just the fear of the ocean, but the fear of shame. David Litt: Yes. I, I was shocked by this, that for me. I thought I was gonna learn mostly physical stuff, right? I was like, okay, I'm gonna practice my popup and then I'm gonna get better at popping up. And mostly I have to learn how to pop up. And it's true. I'm still working on my popup.But for me, the real challenge of surfing has been learning to deal with fear, right? As you say, there's the fear of like, there's a big wave right behind me and it feels like it's gonna kill me. How do I not chicken out? But there's also that fear, especially as an adult, where you're like, I'm gonna look like an idiot a lot.And you know, I'm gonna have like teenagers laughing at me and I'm gonna feel less athletic than I've ever felt in my life. And yet I'm gonna come back to the beach the next day and do it all over again. And if you can do it enough times and you can get your mind right about it. That becomes liberating.I often say I don't think that surfing has turned me into a different person, but I think it's made me maybe 10% better at dealing with that fear of shame and embarrassment. But 10% is a lot. Right. That that's enough to change your life.And I absolutely think without surfing I wouldn't have had that, , that knowledge that I have now. Michael Frampton: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's, I think that's why kids learn a lot faster because they don't care how they look or David Litt: they just playing. Yeah. And you're used to looking like an idiot when you're a kid. Right. Like, and it's okay.Right. It's cute. When I started surfing at 35, right? That's around the age where you're just like, definitely not a young adult. You're not an old adult, you're just an adult. You're a regular adult. And so I came from, I had started working at the White House when I was 24.And obviously the standards, at least in the Obama, you know, I'm not, not commenting these days, but the standards at one time in the White House were very high. So it's not like you could learn on the job, but there was still a sense that youth was part of, you know, part of your identity. Right. So you were figuring things out.People understood that it was, , it was part of what made. People excited about you at 35, that starts to change a little bit. And so there's this idea if you're embarrassing yourself, you're not a young person figuring it out. You're just an adult who doesn't know what they're doing.And I think it's why a lot of adults stop learning new things because learning usually involves some amount of embarrassment, especially if you're learning something that you're gonna do in public. Michael Frampton: Yeah, that's very true. Out, out of all my research, there's, there's only one surfer who started late in life that became any good at it, and that's, , Robert Weaver Wing Nut from Okay.The endless summer two, and, yeah. I was so surprised and confused when I found out he didn't start surfing till he was 17. I was like, that doesn't make sense. How do you get so good at surfing? David Litt: Yeah. Michael Frampton: It starts so late, , and then I got the pleasure of interviewing him and it turns out he's been body surfing since he was five.David Litt: Yes. That usually there's often that loophole, right? Like, well, so Eve, this is obviously a, a lesser example of it, but, . So I, I've talked about surfing with my, my brother-in-law, Matt, and that's a lot of what the book's about. And I was always like kind of annoyed 'cause you know, I'd say like, oh, how long did it take you to feel comfortable taking off on a, you know, one of these head high waves that, uh, we get in hurricane season?And he was like, nah, I just always kind of did it right. Like he wasn't, and, and, and I was, where did that come from? But on the other hand, he did, he skateboarded for a long time, even though he started surfing. In his twenties, but he was a skateboarder for a while before that. And you can see that in his form, right?Where, you know, he's not a, a pro surfer, but he is definitely somebody who is expressing himself on the wave. And, and can, and I write about this in the book, can definitely turn some heads, , when he kind of claws his way onto. Something steep. And I think that is, , if he wasn't a skateboarder, I have to assume that he would be more in, at least I have to tell myself he'd be more in my situation, I, I thought that skiing would be helpful and it wasn't certain ways, but in a lot of ways it was just not similar enough.Michael Frampton: I grew up skateboarding as well, and it's, , the concrete is brutal. So David Litt: yeah, imagine far more I would imagine. I, yeah, I wanna get into, I have a surf skate and I just, like, we're talking about fear. I, I, the fear of embarrassment is wearing all the pads and being like the adult at a skate park, not knowing what they're doing.And then the fear of, , you know, physical injury is, is concrete seems a lot less fun to fall on than the ocean. Michael Frampton: Oh yeah. But you're right though. I mean, learning to, you know, sort of working on your surfing technique on a, on a surf skate style skateboard is actually a really good way to sort of, to lock it in.David Litt: , Yeah, I gotta start to do that. We, we, uh, we were talking before, it's, it's winter here, so maybe not for a couple of months, but, alright. Yeah. Yeah. 2026 gonna be the year of this surf scape. Yeah. As long as long as you get knee pads and real good wrist guards. Yeah. And learn how to fall before you skate, which sounds strange.No, no, that makes sense. Like running up a ramp and, and, and sliding down it on your knees and your hands like, like a kid might do, and just learning how to, instead of. Land hard bang, but learn how to actually slide with it. Oh, I see. Okay. I'm glad we had this talk. Yeah. That was not what I would've done.Michael Frampton: Yeah. , David Litt: I would've just tried it and then probably not tried it again after I got hurt. Yeah, Michael Frampton: yeah. Yeah. Just really good knee pads and really good risk guards is, is what you need. , And a helmet obviously. Yeah. And, uh, and let go of all that shame David Litt: sense. Michael Frampton: Easy as that. David Litt: Yep. That's, yeah, just do those things and you'll be all set.Michael Frampton: Yeah. I actually just, was just working on an article at the moment about, how saying that, , good surfers are stoics by default because surfing teaches you stoicism without you realizing it. David Litt: I like that idea. Tell yeah. Tell me more about that. Michael Frampton: Yeah, well, I mean, courage, temperance, , justice and wisdom and all, all of the stoic virtues and things that the stoics talk about.I've been reading, , a lot of Ryan Holiday recently. Mm-hmm. Ah, surfing teaches you all of that stuff just by force sort of thing. David Litt: Yeah. And well, it's interesting because it's got this kind of hippie reputation. Right. Mm-hmm. But when you do it, so unlike I, I, um, I wrestled in high school, right?Wrestling is a character building sport for sure. That's what you call something if it's kind of unpleasant . But that's got a very macho reputation. Whereas surfing has this reputation, especially for people who don't surf of being very laid back, very chill, very California. But then as you're saying, right, a lot of these virtues are very, are much more like traditional sort of classical virtues.Michael Frampton: Yeah, definitely. I think that hippie reputation came from, gosh, if you could wind back the clock and go to first point Malibu, where the water's warm. Mm-hmm. And the waves are really easy and it's not crowded. Surfing pretty, is a lot simpler and a lot less dangerous. Now that's, that's sort of a little, that's a bubble, obviously, a bit of an outlier.Whereas, you know, if you wanna be a good surfer and surf all conditions and stuff, you, you need to be a bit more stoic than, than hippie. , David Litt: Yeah. Well, and, and surfing is interesting 'cause the other, the, you know, the things that I've done more of in life, right, involve. Either the comedy world or the political world, and those are also two universes where people think they really understand them, even if they have no real experience as a practitioner.Right. And surfing because of the beach Boys, because of, there's a vibe, right? There's all kinds of stuff. I always think that, right? United Airlines is the airline where I happen to have my most of my frequent flyer miles and all of their advertising. For like sign up for United Credit card and get how, however many free frequent flyer miles, it's a picture of a surfboard, right?That's, it's like the iconography has become so, so, so that everyone feels they understand what surfing is. And I think weirdly, you know, having now been surfing for a couple of years, I think it's mostly given me an understanding of how little I get it. , Where I think I would've said, oh, I kind of get that before.Okay, well I, I see the, whatever the t-shirt with the surfboard on it. And, , I, I listened to the Beach Boys, I, I, I know the vibe. And now I'm like, oh no, there's a lot more. And it's a lot more, it's a lot more complicated. And as you say too, right, like in all part, all kinds of parts of the world that are not very Californian and attitude.Michael Frampton: Yeah. I mean, surfing, it's , like, like we said before, like that, that moment where you're on a wave, even if it's for three seconds. We, we will go through so much to get another David Litt: mm-hmm. Michael Frampton: Taste of that. David Litt: Yeah. Michael Frampton: And we forget about the struggle we went through to get it. David Litt: It is. I, it happens to me all the time where I'm like, okay, this has been a, you know, tough session or we, we've been talking about surfing in New Jersey in the winter, right?It's like, I'm freezing cold, I can't feel my feet and I'm just gonna get one more wave. But then you get that wave and you're like, oh, I'm, I just, I should get one more after that. , Totally forgot that it took 45 minutes and, it's snowing out and freezing and you say, oh, the next one I'll just, I'll just grab real quick., And there's all kinds of ways you can talk yourself into. Into staying out. , Which is a good thing in some ways, but it's funny to me. I mean, part of, , I think part of this too, and I think I had a big chunk of this in the book, there was a lot of things in the book that I, I ended up having to cut because there were very specifically for surfers and no one else, right?Like I, there was my editor who has surfed, a couple of times in his life. But, and, and. Likes reading about it, but it was, isn't a nons surfer. He was like, you, you can't write about like, board shapes this much. Right? , No one outside surfing is ever gonna read your book If you have, you know, pages and pages that are about , a fish versus a mid length versus a long board.And so I, I cut that, but another thing I cut was, was this idea that. Wave energy is just not something you interact with at all as a human being. Right. In other words, going back to skiing, just 'cause it's what I'm familiar with, gravity. You, I, I know how that works. Centrif uh, centrifugal force, right? I know how that works.Now, skiing is, I, I love skiing, but it, you can kind of guess what it feels like to have gravity and centrifugal force acting on you. Wave energy is totally foreign, right? It's this, it's like being on an alien planet and that is a very addictive thing, I think. . Michael Frampton: It sure is the neutral ground, the great equalizer, right?David Litt: Yeah. Michael Frampton: It doesn't matter how good you are at something else, surfing Will will humble you. David Litt: Yeah. And, and everyone's chasing. Some version of the same thing. Right. I again, I have absolutely found myself, um, I think about the, the trip that, uh, my brother-in-law law and I, and, uh, we took to the North Shore, right?Obviously we were not the best surfers out there on the North Shore. We weren't even close. And I'll speak for myself, I certainly wasn't close. , But I was chasing the same thing as some of these guys who were, . Going after the big set waves that I was not going anywhere near. And , again, we're chasing very differently.I'm not trying to compare myself in skill level, but I do think there is that kind of. That sense of equal ground that says we're all out here looking for some version of the same feeling we can't find anywhere else. And when you're in the lineup, you also just don't know that much about other people, right?You don't know their politics. You don't know culturally who they are. You don't know what they do for a living, right? It's, it is it it, if you're out in the lineup with strangers in that moment. It feels very equal, or at least it feels , very leveling, right? It may not be equal once you get into the kind of meritocracy of who gets priority on a wave, but it's a very, it's a new society, right?It is on land. None of that stuff matters in the same way. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Oh, definitely. If it wasn't for surfing, what sort of relationship do you think you would have with your brother-in-law? David Litt: You know, it's interesting, I got asked that recently and I, if I get asked things like that enough, I'm like, ah, I gotta ask Matt what he thinks.So I haven't asked him yet. , I think we probably would kind of be where we were at the start of all of this, or kind of during the pandemic, which is kind of , not hostile, but just like. You're there. I'm there. Hey, how you doing? All right. Good to see you. And a little, and I would've been, I'm not, I wouldn't speak for him.I would've been a little juer of some of his choices in life, I'm sure of that. And I will also say as we kind of entered this new era, uh, right. Trump 2.0 in the United States, I think I would've felt less curious about sort of his life. Not, and, and, you know, he's not like a Trump. You know, like a big Trump guy or anything.But he, he is culturally and kind of all of, all of the demographic fault lines in the United States that are, you know, I'm sure wherever you are right now, you're kind of seeing play out, right? Matt and I are on opposite sides of all of those, just by coincidence, and so I think I probably would have not, I've seen him less, and I say this.With a little bit of, you know, we've talked about shame and embarrassment. I'm embarrassed to say it, but I think I would've seen him less as an individual person and more as a kind of demographic type. And then I would've wondered why he wasn't, you know, friendlier to me. So I'm glad I started surfing, I guess is what I'm saying.Michael Frampton: . And have you guys sort of pushed and pulled each other from either side of the political spectrum to gain some understanding and maybe even change a a few extreme opinions? Yeah, I think so. In certain ways. I mean, I, I kind of always say like, you can't, you, I'd, I'd ask him about how he's changed because that is also part of what I learned, right?David Litt: Is like when you try to just think you know what's going on in someone else's head, you're usually wrong. But even little stuff, right? Like I remember, so in, in New Jersey, , there we have a law, the plastic bag ban. You can't use plastic bags, you have to bring a reusable bag. And I remember when he was talking about, like complaining about that and saying, well, the reusable bags, they use up so much plastic, no one remembers to bring 'em, so you're always buying new ones.And I didn't really take that so seriously. I thought, oh, it's probably Joe Rogan said something about plastic bags and he's just repeating it. And the more I thought about it, and frankly, the more , the more I realized that my. That I was kind of being a jerk and not taking him seriously. Right. And the more curious or open-minded I got, the more I thought, okay, that's actually a pretty good point, right?I still would like us all to use less plastic bags, but this is not, , if I was, if I was running New Jersey, I'd be like, let's come up with a different and better way to try to, get people to use less of these things because this way is not working. And it's a small thing, but it's a big thing.The other, I, I often say this with, , with Matt, right? We went to Spain, , on a surf trip, and we stayed in an Airbnb that happened to have an induction cooktop. And I've always been a fan of induction for climate purposes, right. It's a, it's cleaner run, you can run it off electricity, hopefully you can run off clean energy.And Matt is now a big fan of induction because it cooks a breakfast burrito really quickly and evenly. And it's not that, well, we came to the same place, but it's, it's the kind of thing where if you don't. Step outside your comfort zone. You just don't encounter as many different things. , And when you encounter new stuff, it's one of the best parts of being a human being.You learn things. And so I think both of us have learned a lot. . Michael Frampton: That's really cool. Surfing is, , complex outside of the water as well. , If you could go back to speak to your beginner surfing self, what advice would you give yourself? , David Litt: Start swimming. We, I mean, that's the surfing advice I'd give myself, right?, It took me a lot and I, I've actually gotten out of the habit. I gotta get back into it. But it took me a long time to be like, oh, if I did, when I'm not, when I'm not able to surf, if I just go to a pool and swim laps. That's gonna help me last longer when I'm surfing. And I felt like when I was starting the, the biggest hurdle was an hour in or 30 minutes in, I'd get exhausted.And then everything after, that's just garbage, right? You're not gonna learn when you, when you can barely move. And so when I'm swimming laps, I can just get more out out of each session. And I think if I was talking to a beginner surfer and they, they were getting hooked, right? Like really getting into it, I would just be like, find a place where when you're not on a board, you can go swim laps., And then. More emotionally, I think. I think I did a lot of things right, but I think what I would say is, kind of even more of that understand, I, the thing I wish I had known right from the jump, but that I, , an instructor that I had told me kind of quickly is to think about that question of, are you better than you were before , you got went out that day, right?. That I think is what changed for me, both surfing and made me think, oh, surfing could change my life, was when I started to say, all right, yes. I went out, I got my ass kicked. , I got up on one two foot wave. And other than that was just like pummeled by, , a series of sets that were the height of a garden gnome, right?Like, I did not feel very proud of myself, but I'm a better surfer than I was before I paddled out. And let's not lose sight of that. And once I started to think about that in other parts of my life, it really changed how I thought about. All kinds of aspects of life, and I think it's a big part of what helped me get out of, that period of depression I was in when I started.Michael Frampton: Yeah, that's a good point. . You, we don't really regret a surf. David Litt: No, I, it's, it's amazing how rarely you, you know, I,. Matt and I say this to each other a lot, especially when it's cold in New Jersey, right? It's just better to be surfing than not. And there are really very few instances where I think, oh, I, back when I was like dithering before, , I'm sitting in my warm.Home office saying, do I really want to go out today? Or I'm looking at the cameras and maybe it's like bigger than I'm used to. It's a little scary. And I say, all right, I'll go for it. Right. It, it is very rare that I've said to myself, I wish I hadn't. Almost always, I'm just really glad I got out there and , obviously that's within some limits, there's been days when it's double overhead in New Jersey and I thought, okay, well I will just watch patiently from the beach and that's cool.But within those limits, . Almost always, you, you, you regret not going, but you don't regret going. Michael Frampton: Yeah. How would you describe your relationship with surfing in the ocean? David Litt: Well, you know, that's a good question. I think that for me, a thing I had never experienced was just being out in the ocean. At all, right?I, I'd swam a little bit in the ocean, so I, you go to the beach, you duck under some waves. But that, but that experience of just staying there. , And I think it gave me like a new appreciation and respect, but a new appreciation for just being present in the ocean and for being in one spot. I'm the kind of person I tend to be moving around a lot, right?I tend to like the kind of person who says, okay, maybe there's a hike, right? I'm not, I don't wanna sit on the beach, I wanna go for a walk. And so to be in one spot or one relatively, you know, just one break for a long time and it's really paying attention to it, right?Really trying to understand that one wave or that one, , the conditions that one day you start to notice stuff. And that I think has been really one of my favorite things about surfing, especially in winter, in, in Jersey, right? Otherwise I would never go out in the ocean in the middle of winter.What am I? Crazy. And so, and sometimes you see really cool stuff out there, right? We've got some cool birds. Every so often you'll see a whale or some dolphins, , stuff that you just, you never imagined you would see really Beau. And we have great sunsets in New Jersey, very underrated sunsets.And , I was out the other day and I. More or less still dark. And I caught a couple waves, which was nice. But also like there is just a great sunset I never would've seen. And definitely not from that perspective. So that feels like such a gift, right? Just to be able to spend time out there. Michael Frampton: Yeah.Oh, it sure does. Yeah. Surfing is, . It's holistic. And so something you mentioned there was like, I mean, that is how you get better at surfing is looking for more and more details mm-hmm. In what's going on in the ocean. And I, I'm the same. I'm, I'm someone who never. Feels sitting still is boring and, but if I can just lock into sitting there and scanning that little sliver of horizon, trying to predict the next set, where it's coming, where it's gonna break, and reading the little, details on the, on, on the wave.Yeah. Or the secondary waves and the wind chops and all that jazz. The more, yeah, the more focused and detailed you get to reading and predicting the ocean. That is what makes the difference and that's what separates great surfers from good ones. David Litt: Yeah. Well, and, and it reminds me of writing a little bit in that if you just start writing, you might think, okay, I wanna write like big stories.And you have this idea of for the finished product. But if you talk to writers. There are almost all the kinds of people who say, oh, I really want to dig into that sentence, right? Yes, I also wanna do the big stuff. But it's not that, it's not that the sentence is boring, it's that until you really get into it, you don't know why a sentence is so interesting, why rereading the same paragraph over and over again.You learn something or, or rereading a book you really love, right? You, you learn something new every time. And so I think with surfing it's, and a lot of things that involve that kind of learning or the more you do it, the more you, you. Grow to appreciate the little things. And it, not in a like zen, kumbaya way, but just in a way of saying, oh, I didn't realize how, how much complexity there was and how much there was to learn.It's like so many things in life when you don't know a lot, you think there's not that much to learn. And then the more you know, the more you say, oh, there's a lot out there. I have, I don't know at all. Michael Frampton: That's a good point. , That's a great analogy. Yeah. 'cause sometimes we read a sentence.Especially poetry, I think, oh, wow. What an amazing sentence. And David Litt: yeah, Michael Frampton: you wanna read it again? And then you say, oh, then you, maybe the poet rewrote that sentence a hundred times before each word. Mm-hmm. Or each comma was correct. And so yeah, there's the, the details. Hmm. Yeah. When, why writing? When writing, when did your, , writing ability and passion begin?David Litt: Well, I, I was always a reader, right? I was one of those kids that just loved to read. And I think most writers I know that's kind of how you start, right? In the way that probably most chefs started is like they really liked to eat. When I was in college,, I thought I was gonna do comedy writing.I, I did standup comedy when I was in high school, growing up in New York, and I got to college. I did improv, I edited the Humor magazine. So that's where. The writing sort of started from was me saying, oh, I wanna do comedy and so I wanna write jokes and I wanna write funny stuff. And then I also had a couple of writing teachers in college who were really great.So much of it comes, I think, comes down to like, you have people who have done it, who believe in you that you can do it. And I have a lot of respect for people who just use pure willpower to say like, I believe in myself, even though I don't know anybody who, you know, can mentor me. But for me, I, I felt like with writing it was just, it was, I had a sense that this was possible.Then I ended up in DC and I, when I moved to DC in 2009, I thought I wanted to do healthcare policy because I worked as a field organizer for Barack Obama and, obviously United States, , famously without. Universal healthcare. And we had a lot of people, a lot of volunteers I talked to, I could see what the healthcare system was doing to them.And it turns out I'd be terrible at that. But I found, , there was a speech writing firm with former Clinton speech writers, right. Who had worked in the White House. And very early on, one of them said to me, , I think if you kept doing this, you could write in the White House one day. And I thought, okay, that's, I, I didn't believe him.But that meant a lot to me and that sense of someone who saying, I've done it, and I believe that if you work at it, you can do it. I mean, that's a really powerful thing in, in someone's life. Michael Frampton: Side note. , I think it's, , your surfing book is funny. It's very funny. David Litt: Well, thank you. Yeah. You know, I, , I know, I, I, I think trying to, I think it's fair to, I don't.Yeah, I was going for like the funniest surfing book, but I don't think the bar is super high. , There's some irreverent surfing books. There's, there's, uh, so it's not a, it it, but it's not a crowded category. There's really not that many surfing books. Actually. There's some, but compared to a lot of, you know, fly fishing books, there's so many fly fishing books.I, and I, I, I love a at fly fishing book right there. Baseball, there's a million baseball books. There's not that many surfing books. Michael Frampton: Yeah, no, you're right. You're right. But it's such a fresh take like. O obviously you're a very good writer. You are, you are. Well thought. And then you came to surfing already a writer, so you could articulate the experience as an adult beginner.So well, I'll be honest, like when I first. Once we had sort of confirmed this, um, interview, I was like, oh, I suppose I've gotta read this book about surfing from this beginner. And then, right. I was pleasantly surprised at how many times I was just laughing at your, your takes on the surf industry and the, the surf coaches.And, and also, you know, I, I learned a lot about. , What the journey is like starting surfing as an adult now. Sort of in, in, in the two thousands. 'cause I was a late starter, but I was still, you know, 18, , right. And it was, you know, 20 years ago. What I'm trying to say is like, those who are listening to this podcast, my audience, you might have the same thing or would wanna.No, read this book. It's very funny. It's a great take on surfing. You, you empathize with, with new surfers, you'll get a new look on surfing itself. , It actually inspired me to go to go surfing, reading the book. David Litt: Oh, well I appreciate that. No. One of, for me, and I don't know what it says about me, but one of my favorite experiences as a, as a writer is to win over a skeptic.Right? So my, my favorite. You know, when I say reviews, like, you know, , on Amazon or Goodreads or something, right? My favorite positive reviews are from people who are like, I, you know, like, why would I pick up a book about surfing? I've never thought about surfing in my life. Surfing bores me, and I love this book.Right. From that I, I'm always happy if somebody says that. But then also the same thing, right? Of people who say, 'cause my biggest. One of my biggest fears when this book came out was that people who have spent their whole lives surfing or, large parts of their lives surfing, would see this as presumptuous or, or not of value to them.And so I, the fact that there's, you know what you're saying and, and I've heard from other people, which, which makes me feel good, right? Is like that. There's like that. All right. I was skeptical. There's good reason to be skeptical, but I feel a little . I get what you were trying to do, which was specific and I found something for me in it, even though we've had very different experiences.Right. To me, that's, that's how I feel about writing in general. Right. Of like when I read something I really love and I say, oh, I have no idea fiction or nonfiction. Right. That's not me at all. And yet somehow we can connect. Right. I love that. That's why you keep doing it. . Michael Frampton: Yeah. I almost felt like the book was written for me, but I can also see how it was written for lots of different.People, it's very well worth. David Litt: Oh, well thank you. Yeah. If we, if we can keep, we can keep going with the praise, I'm fine with that. No, I, I but I really, I really do appreciate it. I guess it's, and it's one of the things you talk, you asked me like when I started writing and kind of, and, and I would say for me writing is like surfing in that and I've been writing a lot longer than I've been surfing and I'm much better at it.And, and I say that just 'cause I've been doing it for longer. . But I would say every week, maybe every couple of days I wanna quit. Right? Like the number of times my wife has heard me be like, maybe I should just give up on the whole writing thing. 'cause it's really hard. And the, the version for me of that feeling of being on a wave and you're kind of in a different dimension is when you make a connection with a reader, right?That it's not just the getting your own ideas out in the world, but it's that moment where when you feel like you and another human being have somehow. Connected, even though you may not have anything else in common. That's very cool. And it's, and it's hard to get that from, you certainly can get it from a lot of other experiences, but it's, it's hard, especially if you're mean, , you're not good at music.Michael Frampton: Yeah. Well that could be. David Litt: I, I almost failed eighth grade clarinet, so Yeah. That was, that version of human connection was out. Michael Frampton: Oh yeah. Have any lessons you learned from writing helped you to learn how to surf and have any lessons you learned from surfing helped you to be a better writerDavid Litt: Well, definitely surfing has helped my writing and we, we talked a little bit about this earlier, that idea of saying, I'm just, I'm better than I was before. Right? You have a, a really just crap day. And instead of saying, I let myself down, you say, I got better. And writing, you know, it's, it's not unlike surfing in that you can have just a really unproductive session.Right? You and, and it's not the ocean pummeling you, right? It's the inside of your own mind, and either because there's too much there or there's nothing there. , Why did I even think that I. Had the right to try to sit down in front of a blank screen and create something. And if you beat yourself up about that, it just makes you do it again the next day and you don't learn anything.So I've, I started to say, Hey, okay, this was, you know, if I get up in the morning and I thought, oh, I'm gonna write 1500 words and they're gonna be great, and I write 200 words in their garbage to say, all right, fair enough. But. Better. I'm a better writer than I was before I wrote this down. Right.Just by doing it, I got better. That's been really, really helpful As a writer going into surfing, I don't know that it's been quite the same. I don't know that being a writer and makes you a, a, any, any better at learning to surf. , I think it's probably for me, been the other way.Michael Frampton: . It's a really good mantra though, just remembering, uh, , I'm a little bit better than I was. It's sort of a great surfing philosophy that is valid for anything else in life. David Litt: Absolutely. 'cause then you also start to chase experiences. Because you'll learn stuff, right? Like you then you, , and some of this is cliche and a lot of cliches are cliches 'cause they're true, right?, You start to think rather than am I gonna succeed or fail? You start to think about the process. You start to say, okay, what decision is gonna lead to me , growing more as a person rather than which decision is gonna be comfortable and kind of give me a. A prize or a gold star or whatever, right?Often the stuff that pushes you the most that you learn from is not the stuff that feels like a success. And it's not so much that you're learning from failure, it's that you're learning from frustration, right? Like you, you aren't able to do something and that's why you get better at it if you could do it.You're not better. And I, I think that's, I will say that's, again, we're talking about probably surfing, helping me as a writer. , I really have to remind myself these days if I have a, if I go out and, , it's like a nice two to three foot day, really mellow, maybe in the summer. , I feel like Kelly Slater, right?I can catch anything I want and I, I can do whatever I want on these, , admittedly pretty small. , On my, on my admittedly pretty big board, but I, I feel, you know, I'm really feeling myself and then having to remember that's actually, like, that might be fun. There's nothing wrong with it, but it's not success, right?, 'Cause if, if I'm not wiping out at least a little bit, then I'm, then I'm not pushing myself far enough. , And so the real days where I think, okay, that's a, that was successful. , You get a, you get a good wipe out in, right? You're like, oh, I didn't know what I, I went a little too far. . And that, I think is also true for, for writing, right?When I try to write, , I'm trying to figure out what my next book is gonna be now. But as I think about it, one of the things I want to do with, with every book or writing project is say, what's something I haven't, what's a muscle I haven't really developed before as a writer with this book, I, I thought a lot about descriptions of place, right?Just descriptive writing. 'cause that's not, I can do it, but it's not where, where I start as a writer. And so I was like, I really wanna focus on that. And so everything I try to think about, uh, how do you, how do you do something you're bad at? . Or at least not as good at? Michael Frampton: Hmm. Maybe you'll pick up the guitar.David Litt: Maybe I don't. I, you know, it's what, . I will say, so I'm 39 now, and I feel like the. The days of picking up the guitar and that being cool might be over for me. So now I'll have to do it despite it not being cool. But I feel a little better in that. , Better about that. No, I,, I think, I forget who it was who said that all comedians want to be musicians.And I think that is, that's largely true , there's plenty of writers. There's something about music. But I also think that, , one of the things I love is I write more is you start to be able to hear the musicality in. Language. , And especially, it's also a really nice thing about speech writing, which, you know, obviously I did professionally for a while and I still do sometimes, , occasionally.And a, a good speech has the, it certainly has a rhythm, right? It's not the same as a song, but it, it has a lot in common. Is more in common than you think. Michael Frampton: Oh, totally. Yeah. A good speech is almost poetic. David Litt: Yeah. And there's that, that sense, right? That silence has a lot and especially when it's delivered well, right?Silence, , these kind of crescendos that can build. President Obama was very good at that, especially at the end of speeches, right? , You could give him a very long run on sentence and he could al, he could sort of find. He could turn it into a crescendo, whereas if you gave that to most speakers, they wouldn't know what to do with it.Right. It would be like giving a really complicated piece of music, , to someone who's like, , good but not great at the guitar. They, they would struggle with it, but someone really good can take that and and turn it into something special. . Michael Frampton: Yes. Well, I think you took your experience, as an adult learner surfer in the surfing world and you know that in with some.Psychology and some relationship stuff, and it's a great book and David Litt: Oh, Michael Frampton: thank you. I think so. , David Lit, author of It's Only Drowning. Go and Get it. It's on Audible as well for those who obviously like listening to podcasts. David, , very well read by the way. David Litt: Thank you. I, I had to like even try some accents for that one.Michael Frampton: Yeah. David Litt: Talk about things that I was scared to do. Michael Frampton: Yes. No, it was very well read. So you're a good writer and you're a good speaker. I'm assuming you've had some media training as well, so well done. , Yeah. But again, David, thank you so much for taking the time I urge listeners to go out and, , check out David's book.David Litt: Well, thank you for having me. I'm, I'm glad you liked it. What happens when a former White House speechwriter, who’s written for presidents and packed auditoriums, decides to humble himself in a cold New Jersey lineup at 35?David Litt isn’t your typical surf author. He joined the Obama White House at just 24 and became one of the youngest senior presidential speechwriters in history, crafting remarks on healthcare, climate change, and even comedy for the Correspondents’ Dinner. After publishing Thanks, Obama and Democracy in One Book or Less, he turned his attention to something far less controllable than politics: surfing.In this episode, David brings a writer’s precision to the chaos of learning to surf as an adult, articulating the fear of hold-downs, the shame of kook moments, the obsession with progression, and the addictive pull of those brief, otherworldly flashes of flow. It’s a refreshing take for surfers: not from a prodigy, not from a lifelong local, but from someone who can actually put words to what most of us only feel.3 benefits you’ll gainA deeper understanding of why surfing feels “more than a sport,” and how chasing flow reshapes your mindset in and out of the water.Practical perspective on fear, embarrassment, and adult progression, especially if you didn’t grow up in the ocean.A renewed appreciation for the lineup as neutral ground, where politics, profession, and identity fall away, and only waves (and humility) matter.Hit play for a thoughtful, funny, and surprisingly relatable conversation that will leave you seeing your own surfing journey, and your next paddle out, in a whole new light.https://www.davidlittbooks.comwww.surfmastery.comBarrel Mastery Academy: https://surfmastery.com/barrel-mastery-academyThe Surf Mastery Podcast: For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced The Surf Mastery Podcast: For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

You’re NOT Too Old for Surfing: How Aging Can Actually Improve Your Surfing Surf Mastery Podcast Download Are You Really Too Old to Surf - Or Just Believing the Lie?Feeling slower in the water, stiffer in the joints, or unsure if you’ve aged out of the sport you love? What if it’s not your body that’s holding you back, but your mindset?Surfing is often seen as a young person’s sport, but that belief is costing older surfers joy, progress, and freedom. If you’ve ever felt like your best surfing days are behind you, this episode shows that they might actually still be ahead. Backed by neuroscience and real-world examples, this conversation reframes what’s truly possible in your surfing life after 40, 50, and beyond.What You’ll Gain from ListeningA science-backed mindset shift that shows how the brain can get better with age, leading to smarter wave choices, emotional control, and more satisfying sessions.Real stories of aging surfers like Kelly Slater and Laird Hamilton who defy decline, plus insights from The Mature Mind, The Mindful Body, and Gnar Country that expose the myths of aging.Practical ways to thrive as an older surfer - from cognitive strategies to physical habits and creative approaches that will reignite your passion and performance.Press Play If You're Ready to Surf Smarter, Not SlowerDiscover how to keep surfing, keep learning, and keep enjoying the ocean, for life.Books:The Mature Mind by Gene CohenThe Mindful Body by Ellen Langer Gnar Country by Steven Kotler - or the podcast interview:https://jamesaltuchershow.com/episode/superpowered-aging-with-the-master-of-flow-steven-kotlerhttps://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/id794030859?i=1000679523450Transcript:Welcome back or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast, education and inspiration for Lifelong Surfers. Are you too old for surfing? I don't think so. I think we've been lied to about aging. I'm your host, Michael Frampton, and I hate to admit it, but I am an aging surfer and there comes a point in our surfing life where we start to think is that it?Is that as good as I'm gonna get? , Can I even continue to surf with this knee? Should I just buy long boards? Am I aged out of tropical surf trips? Now it turns out that this negativity is actually just disguised as realism. Sure we may feel less paddling power, slower popups, stiffer joints, pain, blah, blah, blah.A sense that surfing like most other sports belongs to the young. Our expectations shrink. Our wave count drops our tolerance for risk. Disappears. But it turns out not because the body has failed, it's because the story has, and once that story takes hold, it becomes self-fulfilling.We stop experimenting. We avoid challenging conditions. We stop getting up early for dawnies, we. We upsize all of our boards. We surf defensively rather than creatively. We confuse caution with wisdom and what looks like natural decline is really learned limitation. Now that is a tragedy because surfing is actually one of the rare athletic disciplines where experience perception, pattern recognition, emotional control, all of those things actually matter far more than raw athleticism or strength or youth.Your ability to read the ocean and to stay calm and be efficient is actually what makes you a good surfer.Having one toe in the surf industry, I've been lucky enough to have some conversations , with some older, amazing surfers, and whenever you ask them about aging, , they often just simply shut you down. I remember talking to Laird Hamilton in the water and I asked him about longevity and aging, and he just immediately shut me down, said, no, we don't even talk about it.We don't acknowledge it. We just carry on. And I thought that was a really, a really unique and cool perspective. But it turns out there's a lot of, a lot of truth backed by science to this way of thinking. And I've recently read a couple of books. The first one is called The Mature Mind by Gene Cohen. Now Gene looks at the science of the Aging Brain.And yes, some of our processing speeds decline as we age. And of course our bodies slow down as we age, but our brains can actually improve if we do certain things. The overarching principle of the book would be the use it or lose it principle. So if we keep doing stuff, we can actually keep getting better.Scientifically speaking, our brains begin to use both hemispheres better, and those hemispheres work together better. We become more emotionally regulated and less impulsive responses. We actually integrate our memories and perception better.We become more aware of who we are and what we want. So in surfing terms, our wave selection gets better. The way we read the ocean gets better. We can remain calm under pressure, and of course we know the types of waves, the types of boards, and the way that we wanna surf better. We become more comfortable in our own skin andmaybe we don't surf as well from a competition surfing perspective, but we actually end up enjoying surfing more.Cohen also talks about neuroplasticity. Some of the old science suggested that we actually learn. That we, some of the old science, some of the old science suggests that we lose our ability to learn as we age, but it turns out that's not true. If we continue to deliberately learn, our brain can stay plastic and we can continue to learn stuff.And Cohen gives concrete tips about how to improve our brains as we age. And one of those is to continue learning. Now, that might be a language or a skill, something that's intellectually challenging. He recommends doing crosswords and puzzles and strategy games. . Engaging in creative pursuits, writing, painting, music, dance, any form of artistic expression,and learning a new instrument or if you already play an instrument. Continuing to learn more about music and, and new songs encompasses both the learning and the creative side of things.We need to maintain and expand our social engagement. So that means maintaining our friendships and relationships and community, but also a term Coan users is to cultivate cognitive diversity. And what he means by that is meeting new people,being open-minded to hearing other people's point of views, reading unfamiliar booksstretching yourself, being open-minded. Things that we naturally did when we were younger.Staying physically active, that's really important. We all know about that. Uh, pursuing meaning and purpose, whether that's through a, a new business venture, helping others through parenting or mentoring or volunteering is really important. Surfing actually fits many of these criteria. Obviously, staying physically active. If we continue to surf with friends, we can maintain our friendships and relationships.We can choose to talk to different people in the ocean as well.If we continue to surf new places and experiment with new surfboards, it's another form of learning.Surfing is endlessly complex, but of course we need to do things outside of surfing. And Cohen recommends just simple things like doing puzzles, crosswords, strategy games, musical instruments, language painting, those sorts of things. And as we age, we'll find we actually have time for these things.But above all, adopt the growth mindset. Reject the belief that aging equals decline because it doesn't. And the science shows that if we do the right things, our brains actually get better as we age. Which segues beautifully into the second book that I read called The Mindful Body by Ellen Langer.She's a Harvard professor and central to the idea of her work is that many of the limits we attribute to the body are actually imposed by the mind. People don't decline simply because they're older. They decline because they become mindless, stuck on autopilot, rigid beliefs and fixed rules.She has a great line. Stiffness is cognitive before it's physical and function actually improves when attention improves. Mindfulness, novelty, variation, all play a huge role.One of the most famous studies in her book is the Counterclockwise Study where she placed older men in their late seventies and eighties into an environment designed to replicate life 20 years earlier. The furniture, magazines, TV shows, everything was 20 years earlier. The participants were told to speak and behave as if it was 20 years ago, and within days, physical changes improved their posture, improved vision and hearing improved blood pressure markers improved, increased independence.They even started playing football on the lawn. The body responded to context.Their bodies responded to the way they were thinking their beliefs.A fascinating study and a book I highly recommend you read.And surfing is full of great examples. Kelly Slater still surfing performance short boards in his fifties. Pete Mel winning big Wave awards. Shane Dorian just charging Twiggy skip fry surfing beautifully in his eighties.And that leads me into the third book that I read, NA Country by Stephen Kotler. Now Stephen Kotler, previously in the podcast of spoken about the rise of Superman, all about flow states.Steven is a lifelong skier and he decided to learn park skiing in his fifties, something that's usually reserved for a lot younger people. , And he found, he was, he managed to learn to ski parks and then he actually took a group of his peers and taught them how to park skisomething that all of them initially thought wasn't possible.Now, of course they didn't learn to perform like younger athletes or learn as fast as them. And what Steven found all he had to do really was just make each progression steps much smaller, slower, fewer falls.But whenand when these older skiers started to realize, oh, I can learn new things. It just takes me a little bit longer to learn. Then they started playing more and getting into flow states and their attitudes changedsomething he calls peak performance aging.So what does this mean for surfers? Well, it's all good news when we let go of the decline narrative and stay curious, surf different waves, different boards. Keep surfing, keep learning, keep engaged,keep playing.Then we keep surfing and we become wise surfers and we enjoy surfing more.Strength and speed matters less, efficiency and grace matters more. We surf for ourselves. With wisdom and without shame, and that is what Surf Mastery is all about. Reading the ocean, staying calm, surfing intelligently, for life.And of course, check out the Surf Mastery Method. Many [email protected]. It is all about how to read the ocean better and become a wise surfer. I.And go ahead and read those books. The Mature Mind by Gene Cohen, G-E-N-E-C-O-H-E-N. It's actually on Audible as well as an audio book.And the Mindful Body by Alan Langer, E-L-L-E-N-L-A-N-G-R. That book is actually also on Spotify if you prefer to listen, and NA Country, it's GNAR Country by Stephen Koler.I actually didn't enjoy the book that much. I don't. I think it was a little long-winded, but I did listen to a podcast episode where he was interviewed by James Altucherand it summarizes his perspective on aging and is very inspiring. So I highly recommend you listen to that podcast episode.I will have the title and author of those books and the link to that podcast episode in the show notes. And if you enjoyed this episode, share it with an Aging surfer friend. And if you read those books, or if you've read any other books that you think align with this way of thinking, please write in and let us know. [email protected]. Until next time, keep surfing and keep surfing until you die.The Surf Mastery Podcast: For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

133 Why Good Surfers Think Like Stoics, and How Stoic Philosophy Can Make You a Better Surfer Surf Mastery Podcast Download What if mastering the waves has less to do with technique, and more to do with ancient philosophy?Whether you're paddling out for the first time or carving your hundredth wave, frustration, fear, and unpredictability are always part of the ride. In this episode, host Michael Frampton explores how stoic philosophy offers timeless wisdom that every surfer, beginner or seasoned, can use to improve not only their performance, but their overall surfing life.Discover how living “in agreement with nature” is the foundation of both surfing and stoicism, and why resisting the ocean never works.Learn how the four stoic virtues, courage, temperance, justice, and wisdom - naturally align with the traits of truly great surfers.Understand how to shift your mindset from ego to awareness, helping you manage frustration, navigate lineup politics, and stay stoked even in challenging conditions.Tap into the mindset of resilient, wise surfers by listening to this episode and learn how to ride the waves, and life - with stoic flow.Transcript:Why good surfers think like stoics and how stoic philosophy can make you a better surfer? I recently re-read The Obstacle is The Way by Ryan Holiday.It's a very famous book. , It's a short and modern summary of the ancient stoic philosophy stoicism and I realized just how stoic we are as surfers. Certainly good and experienced surfers, if you surf, you are already a student of stoicism. And if you're a good surfer, you're actually very stoic already.And if you're completely new to surfing, I think stoic philosophy can really help you on your journey. So today I'm just gonna give a little bit of an overview of stoicism and how it relates to surfing. Now one of the core teachings of early stoicism is that a smooth flow of life comes from living in agreement with nature.Surfing is a literal embodiment of this idea. You cannot fight the ocean. You must observe it and respect it, and learn to move in harmony with the ocean. Zeno, one of the original stoics who this teaching is attributed to didn't just mean nature in terms of mother nature and its literal sense. But he also meant it in terms of human nature, other people, society, and of course our own nature, which is very important I think, to to note these nuances.In surfing. Obviously we want to live in agreement with Mother Nature, the ocean and the weather patterns, et cetera. And as a surfer, we need to read and predict these, adapt and utilize them. But nature as in human nature, other people are. Because other surfers are everywhere, so we've got lineup, politics, and ethics.They're unavoidable, especially at your local break if you want to consistently go out and surf the same place amongst the same people, we have to get on with everyone and we have to learn the unspoken rules and ethics of surfing in general and also for that particular break. And of course, self knowledge, our own nature. Our own deep desires to surf. We need to live in agreement with that. 'cause if you try and deny that part of you, you live in fomo, fear of missing out, and you don't go surfing enough to satisfy that inner surfer.And, uh, it can certainly encompass and take over one's mind. And of course, if you go the other way and you embrace that inner surfing desire too much, it can certainly lead to ruining other aspects of your life and your relationships. So we must have a balance.We must learn to live in agreement with all three aspects of nature in order to be a good surfer. A smooth flow of life comes from living in agreement with nature. It's almost like a surfer came up with that principle. Stoicism at its heart is about focusing on what we can control and accepting what we can't. And furthermore, as surfers, we need to utilize what we can't control to adapt to and play with the ocean and the crowd. And if you want to be a good surfer, you cannot get away from that principle. , What can we control the surfers, .We can control the way we move. Our bodies, we can control our minds. What we focus on our inner dialogue, and of course, we can control our equipment choices and where we surf. We cannot control the weather, the waves, the conditions, or other surfers. We must learn to accept those. We can, of course, learn to read the ocean better and understand surf culture and human psychology, but we've got to accept these things as they are and focus on what we can control.The ancient stoics talked about four virtues, courage, temperance, justice, and wisdom. Surfing is dangerous, especially if you're gonna push yourself into bigger waves or surf rougher conditions or busier crowds. Courage is incredibly important. E courage isn't just about ignoring fear, it's about feeling the fear, acknowledging it, and moving forward logically.Improving your surfing requires that you repeatedly step into danger and discomfort, not recklessly, but willingly, and over time, this builds a quiet, [00:05:00] grounded courage, the kind that the stoics admired the most. Temperance. Temperance is about self-control and moderation.Now if you surf for long enough, you'll eventually call somewhere home. You'll become a local, and temperance is going to be really important 'cause other surfers and the ocean will punish anger and impatience and entitlement.However, mother nature and the crowd will reward. Calm and measured decision making. This is stoic temperance in practice. Temperance and surfing is about choosing waves without being greedy. It's about controlling your emotions and behaving fairly.It's about the way you conduct yourself, not only in the lineup and when you're surfing a wave. But also in the car park. If you show a lack of temperance and self-control or moderation, the ocean and the crowd will humble you. Now, this segues very easily into justice. Justice , is deeply embedded in surf culture, particularly with lineup politics, the ancient stoics associated justice with fairness, kindness and reverence, fairness and kindness.They're obvious and every lineup has its informal judges and experienced surfers that will enforce the unspoken rules. Now, sometimes that enforcement can come through harsh words or passive aggressive drop-ins, but reverence, reverence is an interesting word. The stoics thought of reverence as a deep solemn respect for something greater than yourself, the ocean.Surfing demands reverence for the ocean's power. It's chaos, it's cycles. If you choose the wrong wave or push beyond your capabilities, the consequences will arrive swiftly and the ocean will humble you. Without malice, justice will be served.So surfers certainly learn reverence through experience and acceptance. Wisdom. Wisdom is the application of knowledge. And in stoicism, it begins with understanding what you can and cannot control. Surfing teaches this lesson with brutal clarity. You cannot control the ocean or other surfers. What you can control is how you respond, and we respond with our board choice, the way we move the waves.We choose your positioning in the lineup, your timing, your breathing. You're inner a dialogue, and of course self-awareness and awareness of your surroundings. The wise surfer is hyper aware of both themselves and their surroundings. The wise surfer chooses the right board for their ability and the conditions.Good surfers exercise restraint when necessary. 'cause wisdom cannot be rushed. It comes from time in the water.It's not just about learning how to face the ocean with courage, but learning how to roll with it, how to dance with mother nature, having grace not only in the way you surf, but in the way you conduct yourself in the lineup and even the car park.And if we show courage and we maintain our temperance, our reverence, and accept the balance of justice, over time these traits can become instinctive and then we will become wise. Surfers. Now, the experienced surfer listening to this may just begin to realize how [00:09:00] stoic they already are, and maybe just how some of the philosophy that you've learned through your time as a surfer can be applied to other parts of your life.And if you are new to surfing, I think stoicism offers a really cool framework to think about surfing and to help guide your journey., These simple principles can help you relax in the water, , manage frustration, trust in the process, and approach surfing with intelligence , rather than ego. 'cause as surfers, we remember those seven seconds on a wave, not the 90 minutes of paddling and duck diving and wipe outs and cold water and locals.We stoically choose not to dwell on the sufferings and the challenges. Instead, we remain patient, resilient and optimistic, always ready for and seeking out the next opportunity to dance on a wave. And it is the stoke of those brief, yet seemingly perfect moments that keep us engaged and courageous despite everything we must endure to reach them.Stoicism equals stoke. Now, if you're intrigued by stoicism, I recommend the book, the Obstacle is The Way by Ryan Holiday. It's a very concise and modern summary of ancient stoicism and meditations by Marcus Aurelius is the most quoted and popular original text. So thanks for tuning in and if you liked this episode, please share it with a friend.And until next time, keep surfing.The Surf Mastery Podcast: For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

132 The Only Way to Get Better at Surfing: Obsess Over It Surf Mastery Podcastt Download Are you ready to transform your surfing in 2026 by going all in - completely obsessed, fully immersed, and totally committed? This is the ONLY way to truly improve.If you're feeling stuck in your surf progression or yearning to break through to the next level, this solo episode with host Michael Frampton dives deep into the one mindset shift that separates average surfers from true masters. It’s not just about passion, it’s about short-term obsession to create long-term transformation.Learn why a temporary period of full-blown surfing obsession could be the key to lasting surf progression.Discover practical ways to build your life around surfing without giving up your responsibilities.Get inspired with a clear roadmap for turning 2026 into the year you finally identify not just as someone who surfs, but as a true surfer.Press play now to find out how to make 2026 your breakthrough year of total surf immersion and mastery.Transcript:[00:00:00] Welcome back, or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast, education and inspiration for better surfing and a better surfing life. I am your host, Michael Frampton, and it is the end of 20, 25, 10 years this podcast has been going on, and I was just doing a little bit of reflecting back and looking at all of the episodes and interviews I've done and all of the unpublished stuff, all the work that went on behind the scenes.the inspiration that, that, that makes me want to get better at surfing and to share that journey. And if you do want to get better at surfing, to be on that path of mastery. This one essential thing that is paramount, and that is you need to be obsessed with surfing for at least a portion of your surfing life.If you're a listener to this show, you are [00:01:00] already fascinated. With surfing, it's already a passion. You already love surfing, otherwise you would not be listening. But have you been through a stage of your life when you have been completely obsessed with it? That is what it takes to get better at not just surfing, but anything.Kind of more so surfing 'cause it's so complex. It's the playground is always so different. It's also not just a sport, it's so much more than that. So you do need to obsess over surfing for a certain period of time. I remember I was living in London, focused on career working 70 hour weeks miles away from any coastline and.the desire to go surfing and the identity I had as a surfer was still there. And it just got to this point where I was like, man, I think I'm addicted to surfing. And I was ashamed of it and I wanted to deny it. Ironically, [00:02:00] that's why I became a personal trainer. It was because I wanted to learn more about health and fitness and to become a better surfer.And I found myself, just focused on the career side of that. And it ate at me and I tried to push it down and deny it for quite some time, and it was pointless. And it wasn't until a couple of years later, moved to Sydney and was just immersed in, in a rich surf culture and surrounded by good waves, and I just let go of it.I just gave in. It's okay, I, I love surfing so much. I'm just gonna focus on it every single moment outside of work and family, I was either surfing or I was learning about surfing in some way, and it is a time of my life that. I'll never regret it. it wore off a little bit in terms of the fascination [00:03:00] for surfing has never gone away, but that, that strong desire to be obsessed with it, that was eating at me for years once I gave into it and just fully immersed myself and it just faded into.Fascination and surfing passion. But that time that I spent completely obsessed with surfing, informed the rest of my surfing life, and without those, that time spent diving into it, being completely immersed with surfing, there's no way I would've got as good as I got now and I can pull up to a beach and feel confident in almost any conditions.It's such a cool place to be in one's surfing life. So here's my advice to you. As you come into the new year 2026, and you truly want to get better at surfing, make 2026 the year that you [00:04:00] obsess and totally immerse yourself in surfing. Now, that means not only are you going surfing as much as you can, you're committing to going surfing as much as you can.'cause sometimes you're not gonna feel like it. You might force yourself to put your wetsuit on, but I promise as you're taking your wetsuit off, you won't regret the surf no matter what the conditions. You also, you're gonna drop that Netflix time and you're gonna watch surfing videos and surfing documentaries and YouTube tutorials.You're gonna dive into surfboard technology. The right shape for you. The different types of surfboard designs there are. You're gonna start reading novels written about surfing, adventure and surfing culture. You're going to do breath work training, and you're gonna stop doing heavy weight training and do different training in the gym.That's more conducive to having a fit, agile and fast surfing [00:05:00] body. You're gonna read books on sports psychology instead of books on ancient history. You're going to. Fully immerse yourself in that surfing life and come at it from all angles. Because surfing is such a complex thing and there's so many, there's so many surfers out there that are obsessed to that level.And when you go out into a crowded lineup, you, can't compete with people that have let themselves be such surfers. there's a big difference between someone who surfs. And a surfer, someone who identifies as a surfer. If you want to learn how to read the ocean, negotiate a crowd, choose the right surfboard, work on your technique, all of that stuff.You have to be obsessed with it, not for the rest of your surfing life, but for a time period. For me, it was a couple of years I'm challenging. You do one year, make 2026 the year that you fully immersed [00:06:00] yourself and obsess. And become obsessed with surfing from all angles. Plan your life around the surf forecast.Book a surf trip. Have something to work towards. Step outside your comfort zone. Surf every day or at least every week, even in the middle of winter when the waves are a little bigger and gnarly than you've ever surfed before. Dive in. That is the challenge I put forward to the listeners of this podcast.So over this coming Christmas break and New Year's period, just have a think about it. Is 2026 the year that you really immersed yourself in surfing? And if so, jump on board the Surf Mastery Mini course and you'll learn about the foundational skills that you need. To be able to do that. Not only has my course got those foundational skills of wave, reading and paddling and, popping up [00:07:00] everything that you do between when the board is under your arm and under your feet.That's what we spend 99% of our surfing time doing. That's what my course is about, but also what else you get in the course is a bunch of. Other curated resources. So one of the tips I mentioned was watch YouTube tutorials. Now there's a lot of bad ones out there. There's a lot of YouTube tutorials out there that aren't good.There's a lot of fitness and health advice out there on YouTube that isn't good. So I've curated that stuff and that's included in the Surf Mastery mini course as well. And share this episode with a friend, someone who you wanna take on this 2026 journey of surf immersion. Inspire them, work together, help each other, motivate each other, film each other, get some surf coaching done together, fully immerse yourself.Thanks for tuning into this podcast. I really do appreciate it. Make sure you go to [00:08:00] surf mastery.com to check that course out, as well as all the other free resources available. And until next time, have a very merry Christmas and keep surfing.The Surf Mastery Podcast: For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

131 Why You’re Missing Waves (and What the Pros See That You Don’t) Surf Mastery Podcast Download Are you truly reading the wave, or just watching water move? Discover how paying attention to the ocean’s smallest details could completely transform your surfing.If you’ve ever felt stuck in your surf progression, unsure why better technique isn’t getting better results, this episode is your wake-up call. It’s not just about turning sharper or paddling harder, it’s about changing how you see the ocean. Whether you’re an intermediate surfer or decades in, understanding how to focus and read the wave can be the game-changer you’ve been missing.Learn how world-class surfers like Tom Carroll gain a massive edge by spotting secondary swells, backwashes, and subtle refractions that most surfers miss.Discover why your technique won’t matter if you can’t focus and how mindfulness and meditation off the board can level up your performance on it.Shift your entire relationship with surfing by embracing a personal surfing philosophy rooted in joy, longevity, and self-defined progression - not surf industry hype.Press play to learn how changing your mindset and mastering wave reading can unlock deeper flow, better waves, and more fulfilling sessions in any surf condition.131Michael Frampton: [00:00:00] What helped my surfing the most was looking for the details in the wave because I think it's so easy to get lost while you're surfing. A lot of the time you spend either paddling or just sitting there waiting. If you don't have the ability to read the wave properly, technique's not gonna help you.That is the hardest part of surfing, knowing where to go. 99% of your time surfing. Is not spent surfing. It's paddling around and looking for waves and sitting there staring at the ocean. Welcome back to the Surf Mastery Podcast, education and Inspiration for Better Surfing. I am your host, Michael Frampton, and that was a quote from when I was interviewed for the surf.Basis podcast. A podcast very similar to this one. I interviewed Van who hosts and produces the podcast, uh, back in episode 1, 2, 3, and he interviewed me for his show. So today I am releasing that conversation, which originally appeared. On the Surf basis podcast. Van Vu: Alright, welcome to the Basis Surf [00:01:00] podcast.Very excited because today we got Michael Frampton of the Surf Mastery Podcast. He is one of the OGs in this space. I think you've interviewed over 120 guests at this point. You were one of the original inspirations when I started my podcast as well. 'cause there's just a, a wealth of knowledge in your podcast and in you, yourself as a coach.Um, and I know you have. Courses as well. But, uh, very excited to get into it, try to extract all the little nuggets that you've picked up over talking to all these people and yeah, so thanks for joining. Thank you so much, fan. It's, it's an honor. Cool. Well, why don't we just dive straight in. I mean, you know, there's a million angles that we could take from this, but I, I think where the place I want to start is, you know, you've interviewed over 120 guests at this point.What have been kind of the best nuggets, best pieces of wisdom, best pieces of advice that you've, you've been able to get over all these interviews Michael Frampton: at this point? Yeah. Straight into it. Okay. The thing, what helped my surfing the most was I immediately think [00:02:00] of Tom Carroll. I was lucky enough to be. When I started the podcast, I was actually training Tom Carroll as a personal trainer in the gym, and he was the second guest, number two.And one of the things he was talking about in that original interview was looking for the details in the wave, and that stuck with me back then back in 2015, as something that I'm constantly trying to improve on is looking for the details and the wave and what Tom meant by that. What I'm still learning is when you're looking at the wave, most people think that there's a wave coming in or there's a, you know, there's a, a one meter swell at 15 seconds and that when that wave hits the beach or the point and it breaks along, that's what we surf.Yes, that's the main wave. But there back washes, there are secondary and tertiary swells. There's wind chop. There's refractions coming off headlands, even [00:03:00] from miles away, that interact with that main wave. And when we start to see, when we look for, and we start to see those smaller details in the waves, then that's what allows, I mean, surf what and what, um, what fascinated me the most was Tom would've been.This is, you know, 10 years ago, so I was what, 34? And Tom, Tom would've been like 52 probably. And we went surfing and he's on a smaller surfboard than me, just on these probably waist high waves. At a soft beach break. I was struggling to paddle into the waves. I couldn't even catch these waves, and he's doing full roundhouse cutbacks, just going a hundred miles an hour.I just couldn't work it out. Like, how are you doing that? Mm-hmm. Obviously, he's a pro and he's been doing it a long time, but. We got to break it down and it was because he's looking for the [00:04:00] details. Van Vu: Yeah. Michael Frampton: He, he's looking at how the, that wind chop, that's where I'm gonna put the rail on my surfboard, right inside that wind chop or that refracted wave.And I'm gonna choose the wave that's meeting. The main swell and kind of wedging up a little bit. That's where I'm gonna chip in and paddle into the wave in the first place. And I wasn't even aware that that's what was going on in surfing until he, he pointed that out. So that was definitely a, a huge nugget and something that I'm always looking for as those real, those just minor little details.Sometimes when the, at, uh, when the sun's low on the horizon, it's really easy to see. But when the sun's straight up in the sky and the water's murky, it's so hard to see the multiple swells and the wind chops and the water, et cetera. Also, just the way the water moves, like especially in the, some of the beaches in Australia at the time, you get little, they call it a rip bowl, where there's a rip running sort of alongside the, the, the beach break.The [00:05:00] beach break, and then as the wave's coming in, there's also water drawing. Underneath the wave two. So your board speed is actually faster than the wave's actually going. It's almost acting like a, a wave moving towards the beach as well as a standing wave. So looking for the waves that are doing that more in the set.So the first wave of the set at a rip bowl is gonna, that's, that's gonna be more powerful 'cause there's actually more water drawing back out from the previous set. There's so many of those little details in surfing. We just don't see as beginners and even as intermediates. Gosh, even, you know, I, I coach a lot of surfers that just have never even thought they've been surfing for 20 years and never even thought or realized it and what.Part of the reason Tom learned that is because he grew up in a surfing rich culture where his dad surfed and his uncle surfed and his best mates, they all surfed. So they were constantly talking about all this stuff and analyzing each other and surfing different waves. [00:06:00] So, as. Me, I didn't start surfing until I was 17 and I was completely self-taught and we went, when we went to the beach, there was no one else there, there was no one to learn from.All I had was the magazines, which was all, you know, glorified, glorified performance surfing. So that that little nugget, looking for the details in the wave, that that helped a lot. And I often use the analogy of imagine a mountain biker cruising down a. Down a hill, down a track that's say a meter wide, well, an amateur mountain biker just trying to get down the track using that meter wide track.But the pro mountain biker is looking, where is the center of my tire going on that track? And what's the fastest way? With the least amount of resistance, the track within the track. So that's what I'm constantly trying to look for when I'm surfing. It does another thing, which I think is really important, which segues into the second point, which is it, it allows you to be more present.So I remember interviewing [00:07:00] Matt Griggs, who was Mick Fanning's original trainer, uh, with the Rip Curl team, and he was big on meditation. Uh, the mindfulness meditation was kely meditation side of things, and then also interviewing Dr. Michael Vet. Who's the sports psychologist for the Red Bull team, who's also big on the meditation side of things and focusing, focusing on one thing, like your life depends on, it is a, a, not quite the word for word, but it's a quote from him.So. When you start looking for the details in the wave, it helps you to do that as well. 'cause I think it's so easy to get lost while while you're surfing. You, a lot of the time you spend either paddling or just sitting there waiting, so you kind of get lost and then all of a sudden a wave comes and you're expected to just all of a sudden focus in on all this craziness that's going on.So learning to to, to meditate outside of the water helped a actually helped a lot. 'cause that's just a [00:08:00] refocusing every time you see your mind sort of drifting off, you, you refocus the ability to, to do that. And then when you're in the ocean, you're focusing on the details in the water. And I think it's, you know, 'cause when you're sitting there waiting for a set to come, another big thing, I remember interviewing Nathan Hedge.I don't think he talked about it specifically, but I remember surfing with Nathan Hedge. It on the, on the Sydney beaches. And we'd be sitting, everyone would be sitting there waiting for a set, and then all of a sudden you see Nathan start paddling. It's like, wow. Why is he paddling? There's no set coming, and then five seconds later, everyone else sees the set coming and starts paddling.But Nathan's already, not only has he seen the set before us, he's paddling to where that first wave of the set is going to break because he's just seen it before everyone else. So what has he seen? Well, he is been looking, he's been staring at that little sliver of horizon, right? And when you're sitting there at, you know, you're just above water level, it literally [00:09:00] is like a tiny little sliver of horizon that you're looking at.Nathan's looking at the tiniest little details. If he sees a, this little, like a, you imagine a a 20 cent coin reflecting three kilometers away, he see, he's seen that or he is seen that slight lump. Right on the horizon. And he's, because of his experience combined with, he's actually focused on looking, he's so hungry.I want that wave. I want the next set. I want to be first. He's so hungry for it and so focused that he sees it coming first. And again, it's looking for the details, not just in the wave that you're surfing, but while you're waiting, like can you see that set coming before anyone else? Is it an indicator on the headland and the distance?Is it a shimmer of a, of a chop being lifted by a set coming further than further out than you imagined? Is it a shadow of a set hitting a, a slightly shallower part of the, [00:10:00] of the top, uh, of the oceanography? You know, further out all these little finer details that not only help us to predict 'cause it's a game of what predicting when and where.To catch a wave that's the best surfer. That's what the best surfers do, right? They predict when and where the wave is gonna break before anyone else, and on a finer detail than anyone else. You can't do that if you can't focus. So looking for the details in the wave and in the ocean as those sets come in combined with increasing.One's ability to focus and stay present. Those are the two biggest things that come to mind when you ask that question, because that's the, the basis, the foundation of surfing. Right. Is can I see? The wave coming, can I get to where it's going to start break before anyone else ideally. 'cause it's usually crowded and even if it's not crowded, you know the earlier and the better po you are positioning, the more you're gonna get outta that wave.So yeah, that, that was, [00:11:00] those are two, the two things that come to mind. Yeah, Van Vu: no, those are, those are great. You know, I think it's so interesting that you mentioned that. I was interviewing Isaac Stanton. He is from the Northshore, uh, no, he is from Maui, big wave surfer over there and competitive surfer. And he talks about how surfing is just advanced basics.And what does that mean though? Like surfing. And I was talking to Marcello Castellano, like Olympic surf coach and he is like, people get so obsessed with doing a turn, you're just changing direction on a surfboard. But to actually change direction on a surfboard at high speed, you know, on rail is this incredibly intricate, difficult thing to do, but it's simple at the same time.There's just so many deeper, it just gets deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper The further you go into it, even though on its surface it seems like this very simple thing, and that's exactly what you're talking about, right? Most people look at a wave like you were sitting on that beach with Tom Carroll, and you're looking at that wave and you're like, oh, that's a wave.And then Tom Carroll sees like a [00:12:00] million things going on in that wave, you know? And. Whoever can interpret and understand all these little subtleties, they're just gonna, they're just gonna have this advantage. And I think it's so true. I mean, I think that that is actually why I was inspired by your podcast, because there wasn't much in terms of surf.Really granular surf knowledge out there. Um, and that's the reason why I ask such detailed questions as well. It's because you have to get into like the nitty gritty of things to really get the juice and get the value right. And so what you're saying makes so much sense. And it's funny that you also balance it at the same time with that, that need to focus it, right?Because there is so much, it's this weird, you know, dynamic that you're constantly trying to manage. Where it's incredibly complicated and dense and nuanced, but that can be so overwhelming that that can inhibit people from doing the next best thing that they should be [00:13:00] doing, and they can get overwhelmed.And then that leads to like analysis paralysis. So you need to both have all that knowledge. But then also be able to focus and use that knowledge when necessary at the right moment in time. And so your focus as well, that other pieces that you mentioned about knowing how to focus, knowing how to quiet your mind becomes like so instrumental when you're also combining it with.Having all this huge, you know, having so much knowledge and trying to find all these details, but they kind of go together, right? It's like meditation, like, you know, when you meditate you're actually trying to feel as much sensation and observe as much fine details as you can, and that process allows you to focus.But that's, that's, so that's really interesting that you brought those two up. You know, most of the time when, if. I was gonna ask that question. You know, it would probably be something technical, but instead, this is much more of like this philosophical, deeper, broader approach that really sets you on your journey.Huh. Oh, Michael Frampton: yeah, yeah, yeah. It's you. I agree. You gotta get the [00:14:00] fundamentals right and the great, the best surfers in the world, even good surfers. The fundamental skill is reading and predicting the ocean and reading the way that water moves and the way that waves interact. Because if, like, don't get me wrong, you know, I also think of a, you know, the first interview with Clayton.From Obi, you know, talking about how the surfboard actually works and the basic techniques of a bottom turn and a a top turn. The way he simplifies it is great. But if you don't have the ability to stay focused and present, and if you don't have the ability to read the wave properly, technique's not gonna help you because you can't implement it and you don't know where to implement it.That's simple. And a lot of times people. The only thing people often when I, I do a lot of online surf coaching is doing a session yesterday and the surfer was doing everything right. He was just doing it about [00:15:00] half a second too early because he wasn't reading the wave properly. He wasn't present, he was just rushing ahead of himself.His body position was good. His technique was, was good. He was just doing it all. He just had bad timing essentially because he didn't know what to look for. He didn't know he wasn't reading the way the water was moving and, and, and knowing where to put his surfboard. So it's a very holistic thing, but I think it is the foundation.Like there's no point working on your bottom turn technique if you don't have the wherewithal and awareness to know where to put that bottom turn and to know and to be. Calm and present enough to know to implement that technique in the moment. 'cause a lot of the times surfing almost feels like, like you're, you're dancing in a disco and the strobe light's going.It's like these quick little flashes of what goes on. You pull off a wave and you're not really sure what happened 'cause you were so excited and maybe a little bit scared or feeling a little bit of shame or how do I look? [00:16:00] Or that sort of thing. So, and that. You know, for me that sort of being focused encompasses all of that.It's not as simple as just, you know, meditate for five minutes a day. It's, you know, there's a lot that goes behind that. When I work with someone, you know, we we're talking about developing your own personal surfing philosophy, like are, are you actually just a puppet of the surf industry? You're out there on a shortboard trying to rip a turn, or have you actually sat down and thought about.Where do you want to see yourself in 10 years time? Who actually do you wanna surf? Like would you wouldn't, you would, maybe you'd rather surf like Devin Howard than Kelly Slater, or maybe you'd just be happy just out there on a long board, just gliding along. A lot of people haven't even thought that through, and a lot of people approach.Their relationship with surfing in a very short term, hedonistic way. Whereas I'm, I'm here to say, no, no, no. Look, look at skip fry. He's in his eighties. He's still surfing like you. This is a long term relationship. Everything you do now [00:17:00] is, is compounding over time. It's compound interest. So when people sort of just 'cause I see surfing as more of an art really than, than a sport and it's.How do you wanna surf a wave? What kind of board do you wanna surf? Let's get outta that mentality of letting the surf industry decide for you. 'cause we go on Instagram, we're just fed whatever the surf, the latest surfboard that everyone shortboard, that everyone wants to buy, and. So-and-so did this air or whatever.It's fun to watch, don't get me wrong, but I, so, so yeah, developing your own personal surfing philosophy and then, you know, understanding that surfing is a relationship and how you want to interact with the ocean and, and surfboards, et cetera. So there's a lot of mindset, psychology and philosophy that goes in behind that as well, which I think is something.That definitely comes through in, in my podcast o over time, and obviously the technique stuff is really [00:18:00] important, but I think that's actually secondary because it's really, really hard to implement, implement the way that you do a turn and change the way you turn if you don't have all that other stuff sorted out first.And it just allows you to be calm. And have a lot less anxiety. 'cause anxiety in the surf, surf shame, we've all felt it. That just robs us of the present moment in the flow state, which is when time slows down and we actually, so when time is slowing down and you feel like, oh man, that wave was in slow motion.I knew, I knew what my little finger was doing. That's 'cause you didn't care what you looked like. You're, you got a good relationship with surfing. You were focused. On the ocean. You weren't focused on what other people were looking at or what's happening. You know that section way down there, you were present and you were focused.Time slowed down. Now we can look at changing your, the way you surf your technique and we can start looking at footage. And so I see surfing surfing's a very holistic Van Vu: Yeah, that's very interesting.[00:19:00] That's, it is actually making me think like, this is interesting. Usually when I have podcasts, we don't get into these kinds of philosophical discussions, but this, this, this point that you're making about, you know, the stress. That every surfer goes through, regardless of your ability level. You know, I remember I was viewing Ridge Lenny and he was talking about how like bummed he would get like, because he was working on his turns and he was trying to do, I mean this guy surfs a hundred foot waves at Nazare, right?He absolutely rips. He does airs and he was telling me about how like bummed he would get just when he's trying to tweak his turns, you know? So even surfers at the highest of, highest of elite levels still. Struggle with what you're talking about. You know? And I guess the interesting thing though is I like how you're approaching it from this like broader philosophical approach.'cause I think that that mindset can just make, can make approaching [00:20:00] surfing and dealing with your setbacks much gentler. You know, and, and I, I would imagine that that is such an, especially in such a judgemental. The, the way surfing can be kind of culture. I think having that, like knowing how to reframe things, knowing how to focus and, and quiet your mind, knowing how to define your own standards of surfing and not measure it against why am I not doing errors or why am I, you know, comparing yourself to Kelly s slate.I think that is really important. Right. So it's, it is, it makes a lot of sense. But it's interesting. I also, when I think about it, 'cause when you were describing that, it just made me think. About my own process. You know, and it's interesting 'cause I've actually personally done a ton of meditation. I used to do like, there were like five years I was meditating, two hours a day.I was really focused in on it. And you know, I feel like I've done a lot of that work, but for me, this is just personal. Maybe you can give me some coaching here for me, even though I will. [00:21:00] I think it's both sides. I, I think if, if I, you know, 'cause I'm, I'm sure other people are having this question, so maybe you can help other people.They're like, they might have the same question I do. So that, 'cause I, I find this discussion interesting, right? Because I can approach a situation where. It's an intense packed lineup. Right. And you know, everybody's being watched, everybody's being judged. One of the spots I surf, there's like, it's a small town and you know, it's somewhere in Central America.I know. I know. Most of the guys in the lineups, they're all tons of locals. Like everybody on the beach is just sitting there watching you surfing. You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. So, and then that determines your pecking order. That determines so many things. You know, there's a lot that, that's the interesting thing about surfing is it's actually intensely social.Right. So it's a situation where you can get really in your head. Oh, yeah. Now the thing is, for me personally, like when I'm paddling out there, I will say. Those like affirming things to myself, you know what I'm saying? I'll be like, you're, [00:22:00] you know, it's not about other people. You don't need to compare yourself to other people.You know, all these things and which I think are, are healthy, but you still have that little thing, that little voice in the back of your head. And for me, the only way that I shut that off is if I put in the work and I put in the volume and I actually like do so much work that I have the confidence I actually will.Perform well and then that's when I feel like I have true confidence. 'cause otherwise there's still always this disconnect of where I feel like I should be versus where I'm actually, where I actually am. Regardless of like what kind of like mental framework. I think the mental framework helps like soften that.But I feel like if I haven't put the work in, then if I haven't gotten the volume in, if I hadn't caught enough waves, then I still. Maybe that's just my ego. Maybe that's just me not having evolved to a certain place, you know? But what would you say to that? Michael Frampton: Yeah, that's, I mean, it's common and it's understandable.I don't necessarily think that [00:23:00] feeling ever disappears. Yeah. But when, when you really sit down and, and decide what is it that you want to get outta surfing and you question yourself. Like, oh, may, maybe, let me, let me put it this way. Have you ever been sitting on the beach and seen a good surfer mess up a wave and not surf to their potential?Van Vu: Oh, of Michael Frampton: course. Did you think less of that person? Van Vu: No. I mean, well, the, the thing is that you, it, it, it's pattern recognition. That's the way human beings are wired. Right? If they consistently blow it, then you're gonna be like, oh, you know. But if they're, if they blow every once in a while, then you're like, okay, you know?Michael Frampton: Yeah, but e, E, even if said person consistently blew it for a period of time, would you stop being friends with them? Van Vu: Yeah, Michael Frampton: of course you wouldn't. No, of course not. Right? Would they maybe potentially go down the pecking order a little bit in terms of getting set waves? Of course surfing, there's a hierarchy of competence in [00:24:00] surfing, and there's nothing worse than surfers wasting waves.So understanding the surf culture. Part of it as well. Van Vu: Yeah. Michael Frampton: And then that makes you think, oh gosh, maybe, maybe I don't wanna be fighting for set waves because of the pressure. So maybe I'm gonna, maybe I'm gonna buy an 11 foot glider and surf over there where no one else is surfing. Yeah. And just enjoy the pure joy of just gliding along a wave.Van Vu: Yeah. Michael Frampton: So it's sort of thinking deeper. Where do those pressures. Come from, whether they're external pressures from a crowd or internal pressures against how you surfed last week 'cause you were surfing more or where you think you should be again, it can, what, what do you want to get out of today's surf?And there's nothing you can do of, you know, if you're, if you live somewhere and it's always crowded, there's nothing you can do about that usually. [00:25:00] However, I always find there's always. Somewhere where a different kind of surfboard would be surfing different kind of waves up the beach or around the corner where there's far less people.That's reminds me of another episode with Aaron James, a philosopher. He calls it adventure surfing, where he is just choosing the type of board and the to suit a different kind of wave that no one else surfs, which is what I was doing for a long time when I was living in California. Everywhere is crowded except when you're buying an 11 foot glider and just.You can surf over there where the waves are kind of breaking, but no one else is surfing. You just paddle over there and catch 20 waves in half an hour and you didn't rip a big turn or anything, but you still connected with surfing, connected with nature. Went through the process and that sort of, oh, I should be surfing like said surfer.On the on, on the tour. That just disappears and. That's what's cool about surfing is there's [00:26:00] so many different ways to surf. That's why I like to think of surfing as far more of an art form than it is a sport. 'cause obviously when you think of a sport and in another individual sport like tennis, you know, you, there's.There's far more restrictions if you turn up to play tennis with some weird looking ball and some oversized racket. I mean, people might not wanna play with you, right? But in surfing you can choose where you surf, what waves you surf, what surfboard, the style of surfing you wanna do. It's more like music, you know what I mean?Whereas you can be an amazing jazz musician and know all of the theory and be a technical virtuoso as a jazz musician, but no one ever hires you. They just don't really like your music. Or you can be some teenage punk band that's just playing bar chords, but you are, you're so confident in what you are playing and your style and people actually like it.And then obviously everything in between. So with surfing, you get to choose your style of surfing [00:27:00] and. Do you know what I mean? Like, you can think of the, the teenage punk band. They don't feel the pressure. Oh, I'm not a, I'm not a classical jazz musician with perfect technique. They don't care because they just love getting on stage or sitting at home in their bedroom, just practicing bar chords.There's no, whereas. That's the beautiful thing about music, I think is it's accepted that there's different genres and you can be a great musician in a very simple way, whereas in surfing, it's sort of the, I think the industry has got a lot to answer for in terms of the pressure it puts on on us. Oh, you need to be surfing the latest shortboard.Doing top to bottom surfing, or you need to be surfing a mid length like Devon Howard, or a long board like Joel Tudor with, well, you don't, you could just be like skip fry and just stand there looking right. Graceful and in tune with the wave. As long as you are not getting in people's way, it doesn't really matter.I think obviously there's some rules in surfing. You don't wanna annoy people or get in their way and there's ethics you've [00:28:00] gotta respond to, but apart from that, you know, you get to choose what you want to get out of your relationship with the Van Vu: ocean. Yeah. It's so interesting. I like this. It's like, it's really a question of values.Like what do you. What do you wanna take outta your surfing? What kind of surfing do you find aesthetic and beautiful? Like what do you aspire to? You know? And that's really gonna drive your approach to it, which makes a lot of sense. You know, I'm definitely guilty of that. I'm just obsessed with progression, you know, so I don't even question it.But I do think that there is a lot of, I mean, and when I say progression, like I, I think all of that is beautiful, you know, but I'm the kind of person that's always obsessed, like, okay, how can I do a better turn? Whereas your decision might not even be like, I don't even care about turns. I just wanna like take the most beautiful line.And you're right. That has just as much, that has just as much. Kind of value and, and is just as valid a form of surfing as all the other ones. You [00:29:00] know? Michael Frampton: Definitely I've been there. I've, you know, I wanted to, that's what got me in, that's what was the birth of the podcast. I wanted to know what surfing's so amazing, but what does it feel like to do a cutback like that?Oh my goodness. And the, the progression is obvious and there's a. A well-formed line in terms of performance in the surf coaches that do video analysis everywhere, and it's a great pursuit to do. I think now I'm a bit older. It's sort of. It's not like I've let go of progression, it's just I've defined it in a different way.So trying to maneuver a a giant surfboard through small waves is really challenging. It's really hard to do. I challenge anyone to go out there and try and surf a, a massive surfboard at a novelty surf, breakthrough. A crowd, I think is. It is a different kind of challenge. It's not easy. People make it look easy or I, or maybe the challenge is I'm just gonna sit out the back and catch that one big set that comes in 40 [00:30:00] every 40 minutes.You know, you can think, think of the old salt salty dogs who that's their goal. Yeah. So there's, I I, I guess it depends on how you define progression. I think also maintaining a, a level of surfing ability as you age is a pro, is a progression in itself. And don't get me wrong, if, if it's. You know, if it's, if it's six foot clean and barreling, I wanna be on a shortboard.Right. It just so happens it's not often like that. Van Vu: Yeah. Michael Frampton: So true. Van Vu: No, it, it makes a lot of sense. I mean, when I interviewed Chris from Pilgrim here in, in New York, you know, he, he, he talked a lot about just getting on a, a glider and just the, the sensations and the feelings that he would get from riding. An 11 foot skip fry in like the tiniest of tiny waves.And that's exactly how you described it, is like, it's not easy, it's its own kind of challenge. Right. And that's often those challenges are, are oftentimes your, your greatest teachers. And so do you think, you know, as somebody that probably just deserves surfs, like a large variety of craft, [00:31:00] like what has riding an 11 foot glider, how has that informed your, you know, surfing on smaller boards?Michael Frampton: Oh yeah. Huge. That was an interview I did probably five years ago with Bud Freis in Santa Cruz. He said, just get on a log. It's the best thing you can do for your shortboarding. I didn't really believe it at the time, but every, after every interview, I'd always try and implement at least one main takeaway from each interview.So I, I bought a log and started long boarding and. It forces you, you have to predict the wave in a very different way. When you're surfing a big surfboard, you read the wave differently, you interact with the wave very differently. And then when you jump back on a shortboard, it feels so much easier in a way because you've, you've kind of almost learned a different way to surf and you, you've had to hone in on some of the, some different details.On the wave, look for different lines. You, you [00:32:00] make, 'cause of the surfboard itself is, is longer and heavier. You end up surprising yourself how, what sections you can make, what lines you can take to stay, to stay balanced. You have to choose your line much earlier because it's not as agile. And all of those lessons can be applied to a shortboard just to refine.The way you move and interact with the board, but also obviously the way you read the ocean as well. And the same, I think the same goes with all different surfboards. Obviously with a, a big 11 foot glider that's even exaggerated more 'cause it's even longer and heavier than a, than a long board. But then you can go to the other extreme, you know, I've got, I've.Got surfer five two fish, and all of a sudden you've got almost zero swing weight and it's very touchy and sensitive, and you have to read the ocean and your wave selection changes. And then I just interviewed Donald Brink and he was talking about going as narrow as 12 inches on a surfboard. Yeah. Like going, how, how narrow can a surfboard [00:33:00] be?Van Vu: Yeah. Michael Frampton: And I, it's all, I, I often think of it as like, let's say you're a. Let's say you are a musician and you play punk music, but you go off and spend a week learning jazz. When you come back to playing punk, you're going to, it's gonna be so much easier, and you're gonna hear, oh, you know what? I could add this note in.Oh, I could write a song. It's still a punk song, but I'm gonna write it based on the stuff I learned at jazz school. So what, whatever you choose to do, whenever you step out of it and come back. It. You bring those lessons with you, but more so it just makes you a more rounded surfer too. You think of a musician that has, has played all different styles.They might have one style they play most often, but every influence they've had and every mu, every instrument they learn, informs, informs them, makes them more adaptable. If you wanted to work as a musician, you could fit into any band. The more. The more instruments you play, the more styles of music you learn.[00:34:00] And because surfing's so dynamic, we want that arsenal. You know what I mean? Like I still see, I still, there's a, a break I surf here, which is, I call it a novelty wave. It's a point break and it's a very soft wave. It's very much a long board wave. But every time I go out there, there's 20 year olds on performance short boards, just pumping and hopping, and.Just getting front yelling, getting frustrated, and just like it's, I get you want to, you wanna learn how to surf a shortboard, but when the waves are waist high or knee high, why do you know? It's so much more fun to ride the surfboard that is appropriate for the conditions. And, you know, you can surf anything from Kneehigh to a hundred foot.There is no limit in surfing. You know, the, the, when you say progression. This wave size is a progression in itself. How, how far are you willing to push that wave speed? You can, you know, book a, anyone can nowadays can just [00:35:00] book a trip to the tropics and go and surf crazy groundswells and warm water surfing is so awesome.And the more we learn about different boards and, and styles of surfing, I think the just makes you more adaptable. Adaptability is, is a massive one in surfing, I think. Is it? Van Vu: Yeah. Michael Frampton: Even, even at a wave pool, you know, every wave's a little bit different. Van Vu: Yeah. I remember, I think Steph was talking about, you know, what she's focused on now that, you know, she's not competing, is focused on competing, and she's like, oh, I, I just wanna focus on like how I perform in different variety of waves.That's literally what she's focused on right now. It's just there's a different set of conditions that I want to get good at. You're Stephanie Gilmore, you're probably good in everything, but there's, even for her, she's still like, I want to, I wanna be better in whatever, crappy waves or bigger waves or whatever that might be.You know? So that adaptability is so key. Well, so what are some of the, the biggest mistakes that you've seen people make? You know, what? What, as you know. What do you see people do? I mean, you, you've talked [00:36:00] about board choice, you've talked about wave selection, you've talked about the mental things. Are, is there anything else that you think really stands out to you as something that, you know, is something that people struggle with a lot?Michael Frampton: The, I think most, most surfers, it's that shame factor that gets in their way. They're, they're ashamed of the way they surf in it. It's a catch 22. 'cause it often drives them to get better and drives their progression. Van Vu: Yep. Michael Frampton: But if you think of a, I use the musician analogy again, the musician isn't, isn't going to practice on stage because if they, if you had to practice on stage as a musician, there'd be a lot of shame for years until you got good enough.But you can practice in your bedroom without. There's no fear of other people's opinions in your bedroom. So the hardest part of getting better at surfing is trying to, the problem with surfing is you have to do it on stage. 'cause there's usually, you don't really wanna surf by yourself, especially if you're a beginner.So letting go [00:37:00] of that fear of the way you look or what other people think of the way you surf is a huge one. 'cause that's the only thing that's gonna allow you to focus on the wave. First of all, so I often say to beginners, I mean, stop trying to learn how to surf. At first point, Malibu like, just, just go down to a closeout beach break and, and catch a hundred whitewater waves.You get to, you know, there is a difference between a, a whitewater wave and a whitewater wave. You can still learn how to read better. There's better whitewater waves. You know, you can still learn all the fundamentals of surfing, you can practice it and at close out beach breaks. On soft tops. There's less shame 'cause the only other people there are the people learning to surf or the the person sunbathing on the beach who's not even looking at you anyway.So there are ways to have less of that shame. So I actually think maybe it's have getting therapy done or figuring out or actually thinking about some of these deeper things about surfing philosophy that will help you. In terms of that. And then [00:38:00] so there's, that's the bigger overarching mistake that people make, which essentially is a lack of focus really.Because if you're feeling shame or anxiety, then that's just, it's just robbing your ability to focus on the present moment, which, and the wave and the way the board feels underneath you. 'cause you're worried about how you look or falling off, et cetera. It just robs you of that flow, state of that focus.'cause when you, like, when you watch kids learn to surf, they don't care. They don't compare themselves to anyone, they're just messing around. They start playing in the whitewater with nothing, and then they go to a bodyboard and then they jump on dad's surfboard and they just pure stoke on the joy of interacting with the ocean, just riding the wave.So they don't have, just 'cause they're kids, they don't have that shame. So if we can, I think as adult learners, or adults that want to get better. As they age, you can adopt that sort of childhood joyous mindset and not care about what people think. Easier said than done. That's, that is [00:39:00] a big mistake that, that people make.Board choice is another one. You know, there's a lot of people out there just riding the, the wrong surfboards for the conditions. So I think matching the surfboard to the, not only the conditions, but to your level of surfing as well as like, sit down, have a think, do I really care about. Riding a performance shortboard, I think you'll find most people don't, they're like, actually, you know what I could do with a bit more volume and I just have more fun 'cause I know I'm not gonna, you know, so that, that's, that's the classic one that's, that's big.And then I, once you have the ability to, to focus in on surfing and then be on the right surfboard, then yeah. Cleaning up your technique is, is the obvious one there. Obviously getting some footage and working with a surf coach is. Is, is a good strategy, but I often, a lot of dry land, like outside of the water training is, I think is underutilized nowadays.So, you know, there's, I call it a, it's almost like a 1% ratio. So if you're surfing for an hour or [00:40:00] 90 minutes or a hundred, let's say, let's say you go surfing for a hundred minutes. Probably one of those minutes is actually surfing. I think that's quite a generous ratio. Oh yeah. So for sure. Yep. So think about that.You're, you're standing on a surfboard for one minute, for every hour and a half that you surf. How are you gonna develop the strength, the body awareness, the balance, all of those just fundamental athletic principles, how it's gonna take you years. So why not stand in front of a mirror and work on your technique?Work on some surf specific strength drills to, to be able to pop up smoothly and know what does a good functional surf stance look like? What does it feel like? All those, and then maybe even jump on a skateboard and, and lock in some of those surfing moves the way that a musician would run scales and chords.They're not necessarily playing a song. They're learning the basics and the fundamentals of the song. They wanna [00:41:00] play or learn by learning the chords and holding them so they sound nice and learning the scales. How do they sound? How do they feel or, and look at other, you know, older surfing's very young.It's a young sport or art form. Look at martial arts most of your time when you're practicing martial arts is, first of all, a lot of it's philosophy. Sometimes you're just standing there listening to the, the, the coach or the or the sifu speak about the philosophy of the tradition and then secondly, you're going through forms or Carters slow the movements that you need to do in a sparring situation.You're doing it slowly or strength training that movement. Purposely in front of a mirror, whether it's hitting a bag or doing the slow motion movements with someone in front of you. Only then can you go into a sparring situation where let's say you, let's say you wanna lift your arm up to do a block.If that movement of lifting your arm up to do a block isn't ingrained in your [00:42:00] nervous system and is almost thoughtless, there's no way you're gonna be able to do that movement in time as someone's throwing a punch at you because you're just. You're so scared. And essentially Kelly Slater calls surfing a martial art.And I like that analogy 'cause it's so, it's such a stressful situation, surfing. 'cause even if you're not aware of it consciously, subconsciously, your brain knows you're in water, you bump your head That's. And that happens all the time in little waves. People bump their head and they drown or they come or they have to be rescued.The sharks. This the list of danger. This, this is part of the reason why surfing is so fun is 'cause it actually is dangerous, whether you realize it or not. And then the surfing is a game of getting as close to the white water as you can without falling off as close to the most powerful part of the wave.You're toying with mother nature's energy. And when the waves get decent, that's, there's a lot of energy there, and that's what martial arts is, right? You're playing with an external force trying to dance. This good martial artist will dance with [00:43:00] aspiring partner, an external force, and flow with it naturally, but only if they've practiced those movements and learnt them ingrained in their nervous system.Only then can they implement those movements with speed under a stressful situation. So you think a great, we take it for granted how much time and effort and repetitions that these surfers who are good at it, put it. They've been surfing since they were four. Yeah. Now they spent five years learning how to read the ocean and playing in the ocean and getting slammed onto the, before they even stood up on a surfboard.Probably a lot of them just playing in the white water and messing around. Before they even caught an unbroken wave. I'm watching my kids learn to surf and it's, you know, they've been in at the beach almost all summer. Every summer for my 13, for 13 years. My 13-year-old, only this summer or last summer was he really starting to kind of get surfing.That's how long it takes. Surfing is a long [00:44:00] term thing. Van Vu: Oh yeah. Michael Frampton: And, but I, I think the cool thing as an adult learner is you can. Learn. I mean, look at Brad, Brad Gerlach, who's got the wave key, for example, where he's kind of literally broken the movements of surfing down into a martial arts kind of thing.That's next level, and you don't have to necessarily go that far, although I do think it's great, but the simple, keep getting your paddling fitness up like with your product is one big thing. And then learning how to do a popup in slow motion. Is another thing, and then learning what a basic surf stance is and how it feels.You get those three fundamentals sorted. Surfing. My philosophy is that once you stand up on your surfboard with your feet in the right spot, in the right part of the wave, on a good wave, the rest of surfing is easy. What happens between when the surfboard is under your arm and under your feet? That is the hardest part of surfing, reading, knowing where to go.Reading the ocean, paddling around, predicting [00:45:00] when and where the wave is going to break. Entering that wave with good timing, popping up with good timing. That is putting. Making sure your feet are in the right spot, making sure you're not standing too tall or too low, having a good, simple surf stance, all of that stuff.It's all the hardest part of surfing, no matter what level you are. Once you're standing up, surfing's actually pretty simple, especially when you look at someone like ey, like he barely moves his body. It's all timing. It's all timing and rhythm. So the I, I think people also underestimate just how hard it is to paddle into a wave or to to paddle, to where the waves breaking and then paddle into the wave and pop up is the most athletically demanding part of surfing as well.If you think that it's yoga with dolphins, you're dreaming. You have no, like you, when you watch these athletes, they make it look easy. Yes. But they, they are very strong paddlers. They have very strong at popping up and they have a lot of strength and mobility through those movements. Most of them will take it for granted 'cause they've [00:46:00] been doing it since they were four years old.But that doesn't mean that we can't develop that with dry land training and. Starting to learn, what do we look for when we go surfing? Like that, sort of like knowing how to focus, what to focus on and training the body like a martial artist would train. That's the basis and, and, and paddling and your paddling fitness and all that stuff.That's the basis of your, of your surfing experience. And it's ironically, it's what we spend most of the time doing. Van Vu: Yeah. Michael Frampton: Like 99% of your time surfing. It's not spent surfing, it's paddling around and looking for waves and sitting there staring at the ocean, but a hundred percent. Yeah, no, I've, but you know, this 2015 where I really started to focus on, I was determined on getting better.I, I don't regret all any of it because now. Because I spent years just obsessed with surfing and focused on it and trying to get better and figuring out all this stuff. If I don't surf for a little while, [00:47:00] I can still go out in a, into a crowded lineup and, and even if I've never been there before. 'cause just 'cause I know what to look for, I can go out and, and get a set wave and surf, but not as good as any of the locals obviously.But just 'cause I know what to look for and it's such a cool place to be with your surfing. It's just to have that ability just to paddle out when you do get a moment. And just enjoy, you know, I choose the right surfboard for my fitness level and for the waves. I know what to look for. I know how to, to read the waves.But the, the, the break eye surf, I'd say one, maybe two out of every 20 waves that come through is actually quite surfable. It's a very novelty wake. You've gotta have the refractions from the headland and the, the right periods and the two swells meeting up for the wave to actually peel. Most people, I, I know how to choose those waves 'cause I know what's, 'cause I know what to look for.So, yeah, I, I think being probably one of the biggest mistakes actually, to give you an over an overall answer is people [00:48:00] just aren't obsessed with surfing enough. I kind of agree. Like, it's almost like, and I went through a stage two where I was sort of was like, I felt this obsession and it felt selfish and it felt wrong.I was like, I almost di denied it from myself. And then, then as I got a bit older, I was like, you know what? So what. I love surfing that night. Why not be obsessed with it? And that time I spent years just honestly, if I wasn't surf, every spare moment, I still had a job. I was still raising a family. But every spare moment I had, I was surf either surfing or watching surfing or researching what surfboards to wear, or watching tutorials on YouTube or reading, reading.There's, there's books on how to read water. I was upset. I was reading a different, I was trying different trainers and physical therapists to get the body in tune. Ev like for years, every single spare moment was surfing, surfing, surfing. And once I [00:49:00] accepted that and dove in, that's when I got better. So surfing is, it is one of the hardest sports or arts.Oh my Van Vu: god. Michael Frampton: Yeah. 'cause of all those complexities, we just. Touched the surface on, but that's what makes it so interesting and, and cool. Van Vu: Yeah. Michael Frampton: Is, is, is how Van Vu: tricky it is. It is the deepest puzzle that I've ever tried to crack myself. That's why I'm so obsessed with it. And I feel like that's why everybody's so obsessed with it.'cause it's so fricking hard. Yeah. But then if you put the work in and you, it pays off, it's the best feeling in the world. Oh yeah. Oh man. Yeah. So that, that would be Michael Frampton: my, that would be my, my challenge to anyone listening is just do one year obsessed. Let's go through one season, summer. Spring, winter, autumn, or fall.Go through one one season of being obsessed with surfing. Spend your money on surf trips and surfboards and surf education and training equipment and personal trainers, or spend all your money on everything [00:50:00] surfing. Follow. The Ragland Surf Report and Jonathan Wayne Freeman on Instagram and learn about surf culture through satire.Like read books on how to read water, do every course that's out there on surfing. Go work with a local coach, work with online coaches. Just spend all of your money and your time obsessing and learning about surfing for one year, and then see how you feel after a year. 'cause it takes, I think it takes at least one year of obsessing with surfing before you even begin to know whether you even want to keep pursuing it.So many, so many people you see start surfing in summer. They have all this great experience on a soft top and warm water, and then all of a sudden it gets a little bit bigger and the water gets colder as summer ends, and then they give up. That's it. Well, no, come on. You haven't even, you go through the, the, the autumn and the winter, and then as spring starts to get warmer and warmer your second summer of surfing.If [00:51:00] you can push through that, my goodness. It's, it's so much deeper and, and more fun. That's the thing about surfing is it's so much fun. But I think like any relationship, you're gonna go through hard times. And if you, if you like any long-term relationship, whether it's with a human or the ocean, you can't expect it to be amazing all of the time.There's gonna be challenges. Now there's plenty of, I've never regretted a surf, but there's been plenty of times where I've forced myself to go surfing. Van Vu: Oh yeah. And that's so funny. 'cause. You don't even, you've only been surfing for a year or two. You haven't even gotten to the fun part. You know, I mean, you've gotten a taste like the tiniest, tiniest of tastes, and that piece, that taste that you get is like the best piece of cake you've had in your entire life, but you have no idea.What is awaiting you, you know what I'm saying? Like getting your first barrel, that piece of cake that you had is just gonna feel like something complete. You know, like you can't even explain it. So yeah, [00:52:00] those are, those are really wise words. I love it. Yeah. I really like your philosophical, like big picture approach, which I think is.Really unique. I haven't really heard people think about it or talk about in that context. I've heard little slivers of it. You know, there's, there's definitely philosophical surfers, but I've never, I've never had a philosophical surf education discussion, so I, I really appreciate that. But we gotta work towards closing up.I got a couple, few last questions for you. Michael Frampton: Well, let me just say firstly, let, oh, yeah. All of that, all that stuff I've touched on, I've. The stuff I've learned through not only doing the podcast and interviewing all these people, but whilst I was on that journey, I was putting all those lessons into place on my own surfing, as well as working as a surf coach.So all that stuff is all in a course on surf mastery.com. So if you go to surf mastery.com, there's a mini course that gives a really concise overview of, of the stuff that happens in between when the surfboard's under your arm and under your feet, essentially, all the stuff that other coaches aren't.[00:53:00] Going into, and then all the stuff, technique stuff, I, I do as a one-on-one sessions as well, which you can, you can book there at, at surf mastery.com as well. Awesome. Van Vu: And then are you on, you're on Instagram, what's, what's your social media handle? Michael Frampton: Yes, Instagram Surf Mastery on Instagram as well. Yep. I'm not overly active on there, but I definitely, if I want, once I post a new show, I'll, I'll put a little snippet on there and certainly add some of the, the, the more, some of the more curated surfing that I see on Instagram ends up on my story as well.Van Vu: Okay. Got it. All right then. So people know where to find you. I last three questions and these are you, we, we gotta, we'll keep these ones short 'cause these are actually big questions, but just like your short answer, any light bulb moments when it came to technique bottom time, they either light bulb moments either when you interviewed somebody or in a realization you had yourself when it came to technique.Michael Frampton: I mean, I remember my first proper bottom turn. And [00:54:00] remembering how, how much strength it took to do it and how much force was going through the board and my legs at the time. I was quite surprised and I was lucky to, to enough to have having been filmed. So I saw evidence and it was the first time I'd really sling shotted back up the wave, you know, three times faster than every other bottom turn that I'd done previous.And it took, gosh, you know, that was 15 years into my surfing journey before that happened. Van Vu: Yeah. Michael Frampton: And it's the, in terms of everything, everything that happens after you've stood up on a surfboard, the bottom turn is the basis of that for sure. Alright. Van Vu: Any light bulb moments when it came to boards or fins?Michael Frampton: Oh yeah, lots. I mean, getting, getting into long boarding was a big one, I would say. Yeah. Just getting into bigger surfboards. Yep. Whether that's a. A big, a bigger, you know, whether that's a seven foot mid-length or a 10 foot long board, just stepping outside of the, of the shortboard [00:55:00] mainstream and whatever the mainstream pushes at you.So I would say my first one was, was getting a log. I got a a nine, it was a nine eight Wayne Rich that I got. That really sort of made me fall in love with bigger surfboards, which then led to a bigger glider and, and, and some of the mid lengths as well. Van Vu: Okay. And what is your intention when you go for a surf?What goes through your brain? Michael Frampton: Ooh, my intention when I go for a surf, first thing that comes to mind is to enjoy it, like to have fun. And I think the funnest thing is, is molding with or dancing with nature. Like listening to the wave and, and what whatever surfboard I've chosen and whatever wave I'm surfing, just trying to be in tune with that and do what's right in that moment to dance with, with, with nature and, and be in a flow state.That's the intention. I always, there's a quote I like to say to, to people, which is, don't try and catch the [00:56:00] wave. Accept the invitation to dance. So there's another little tip there in the mindset. And I think that's a good question because yeah, if you're trying to catch the wave, there's this certain, like you are trying to, you know, you're, you're trying to go hunting for it or something and catch it.Well, the wave's just gonna do what it does. You actually, if your intention is just to accept, it's inviting you, the wave wants you to be on it. If you have that. Initial intention, the wave wants you to dance with it. Then it's not only gonna help you catch the wave, but help you sort of get in in into sync with it a bit more often.And that's what all good surfing is. Really, it's in sync with the wave. Alright, I guess we'll close Van Vu: it on that. Well, thanks for joining, Michael. This was a pleasure and people know where to find you and yeah, well, yeah, a lot to do this again sometime. This was fun. Awesome. Thanks Van. Appreciate it. Michael Frampton: Thank you so much for tuning into the show.If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend. Make sure you subscribe and of course, go and check out the Surf [00:57:00] Basis podcast. Uh, van has quite the back catalog. And remember, if you like what you heard in this episode, make sure you go ahead and check out the Surf Mastery Method mini course. And all other free products [email protected] know what? You know why I made the course. It's, uh, we all know how important the bottom turn is to set up the wave, but do you know what's more important than the bottom turn? It's how you pop up. Yeah. If your pop up isn't smooth and balanced. Good luck trying to get a good bottom turn in. And guess what?If you haven't read the ocean well and chose a right wave and timed your popup well, looked where and when to pop up, set the right line, all the stuff that happens before you even get to your feet, if you've messed all of that up, a good bottom turn simply isn't going to happen. So that is what my course is all about.What happens between when the board. It's under your arm and under your feet. That [00:58:00] includes the popup reading waves, the stuff that really makes the difference in your surfing journey. That is what the Surf Mastery Method mini course is all about. So go ahead and check that [email protected]. And also remember, the Surf Mastery Podcast is their educational back catalog.So go through and listen to each episode if you're new to the show until next time, to keep surfing. The Surf Mastery Podcast: For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

130 How Details Transform Surfing, Self-Talk & Relationships with Kyle Thiermann Surf Mastery Podcast Download What if the key to mastering any craft - surfing, storytelling, relationships, or even table tennis - lies in simply slowing down and noticing the smallest details?In a fast-paced world that often rewards intensity and output, we easily overlook the quiet power of presence and reflection. Whether you're navigating the chaos of Mavericks or confronting inner narratives, this episode reveals how attention to detail can reshape not just your performance, but your perspective on life itself.Discover why focusing on one small detail - like the placement of your back foot - can dramatically improve your surf sessions and silence self-doubt.Learn how table tennis taught Kyle Thiermann a life-altering lesson about humility, ego, and mastery that spills over into his big wave surfing.Explore how interviewing his parents not only led to his new book but also transformed his relationships and deepened his empathy through the art of asking better questions.Listen now to uncover how Kyle Thiermann’s philosophy of detail and reflection can elevate not just your surfing, but your entire approach to growth and connection.Kyles' - Book:  https://geni.us/onelastqbeforeyougoWebsite: https://www.kylethiermann.comInsta: https://www.instagram.com/kyle_tman/Kyle was first on the show in 2018 - episode 27Kyle Thiermann is a surfer, podcast host, and author of One Last Question Before You Go, a book about why you should interview your parents.Music: Leo Meizoso - Soul Elegance Michael Frampton: Kyle Thiermann is a writer, podcast host sponsored surfer for Patagonia, and most recently a published author, which is very cool and a book I am excited to talk about. But before we get into the book, I was just looking through the notes of our first podcast back in 2018 and the most important advice that I took away from that interview, you probably don't remember it was quite some time ago, but was basically to slow down and look for the details, which reiterated.Something that Tom Carroll said the year before that he was guest number two on the podcast. And that's what he said. He said, look at the details. 'cause the, what sparked the conversation with Tom was, Tom was, you know, a good 10, 15 years older than me, and we went surfing before I interviewed him. And the waves were maybe waist high, high tide, no water, drawing off the bottom.And here's this old man like doing full roundhouse cutbacks on waves that I couldn't even catch. And I was scratching my head. He's like, I can't even catch these waves. If I do, I'm like pumping, just trying to stay with it. And you're just flowing these beautiful round out, like, what is going on? What am I missing?And he's just like, oh, it's just, you gotta look for the details. You go look for the little ripples and the secondary swells and the back washes and it's like trying to get blood out of a stone, surfing small waves. And if you don't have an eye for the finer details. You'll never do it. So it was really cool to, to have you sort of reiterate it as well.And the question I have that comes off the back of that is, is that still your philosophy in surfing and in other parts of life? How has that changed? How has that evolved? Are you still looking for the details and trying to slow down in surfing? What's been going on since we last spoke? Kyle Thiermann: I love that you checked out our last podcast because, , that's great advice that I should still give myself, uh, younger, wiser, Kyle Thiermann, uh, said that, and it's a very good reminder, uh, particularly, you know, if we want to take this concept of looking at the details specifically to surfing.I find that my worst sessions are when I I'm thinking too broadly about myself as a surfer. As an example, take off on the first wave, , try and hit the lip mistime it fall. All of a sudden this flood, and maybe it was just me, but this like flood of negative narrative enters my brain. Like I was never that good at surfing.I, my best days are behind me. , , this board doesn't work. Like these grand brush strokes of negativity can often, , build just a, a narrative that can ruin a session. , And, what's in common about all of those narratives are that they're too broad, right? That you're thinking about yourself generally.And I think one of the best antidotes to negative self-talk is to look at the details. So, okay, now I'm gonna take off on this next wave and I'm just gonna think about. Where my back foot is placed on my pad. I, I find that that's actually one of the healthiest things for me to think about when I'm taking off on a wave is where is my back foot, because that's the control center of surfing.I grew up, um, actually before I started surfing, started surfing when I was maybe 10, 11 years old. Uh, but before then, I was a really serious skateboarder. And still, you know, I had halfpipes in my backyard growing up. My older brother built this crazy six foot, six foot halfpipe with a seven foot extension.So growing up in Santa Cruz, I was very much a, a, a, a multi-sport athlete and the bad habit of skateboarding. , That can transfer to surfing and it transfer to my surfing is that you put too much weight on your front foot. , 'Cause skateboarding is when, when you're pushing down on a halfpipe, when you know, you, you are more centered over your front foot.Whereas surfing the control center is in the back. So it's something that I've really had to fight my whole life. Um, a bad habit to break. And even still, when I surf, I can just focus on the back pad. Okay, where's my back foot? That's a small detail I can think about throughout a wave. And suddenly, because I'm thinking about that, I can't think about this bigger narrative of how good I am as a surfer, which is not gonna help you improve at all.You can take all those details just focusing on one thing. You know, I think a, a, a great theme of your podcast really is. Breaking apart this vexing craft of surfing into these smaller and smaller bite-sized chunks. And that's how improvement happens, , from an athletic standpoint. And it's how improvement happens from really any task that you want to take on extrapolating that concept out to, , writing, which is, uh, uh, um, what I've been focusing on quite a lot over the last few years, if I'm looking for a story to report, I was just down in Porto Escondido reporting a story for the Surfer's Journal.It's gonna come out in a number of months. All I'm looking for is details. The, the thing that we hate reading about are generalities. The thing we love is, is reading about details. The best writers are always writing with their five senses. What is the, what did the streets smell like? How hot was it that day?What did it actually feel like to be there? And it's, . Quite profound what being more specific with your thoughts can do for happiness. Michael Frampton: Broadly speaking, do you think that just makes you more present in the present moment? Kyle Thiermann: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think it also gets you out of your own head if you're just thinking about the tactile feeling of what's around you, the board, the waves., You're, it's really hard to think about yourself generally, and a lot of, uh, suffering that happens and a lot of just bad sessions, bad surf sessions are the result of you thinking about yourself too much. Michael Frampton: . Usually in the past or pre or future as well. When you, when you feel you get stuck in your head, you're usually thinking you're judging yourself of how others might think of you, which is something that is maybe happened in the past or is about to happen in the future.Kyle Thiermann: Oh yeah. It's just imaginary arguments in our heads. Yeah. All day long. Right. And, and one of the best things about surfing, and the reason I've been addicted to it since I was 10 years old and still do it on a, a practically regular basis, is that it is one of the best ways to get out of our own head, because there's just so much going on, you know, and, and, um, I, one of my favorite things to do is take nons surfers out surfing for their first session because it's like.It's like taking someone on their first acid trip or something, they're like, whoa, I had no idea this thing, this whole thing even existed. They're so outside of this, um, conventional context, you know, the day-to-day on the phone, standing upright on your feet, on solid ground, like we've all experienced that if we take someone surfing that sense of awe that they get, and it, it can be easy to forget that when we be, when surfing becomes a more normalized and habitual thing for us., And I think it can take more effort to get out of our own way, , and into those little detailed moments. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Is it the only way that you can surf Mavericks? Kyle Thiermann: Well,if you're surfing Mavericks and you are distracted from what's happening right in front of you, you're gonna get yourself in a lot of trouble really quickly. It's very easy for that to happen because a lot of times if you're out surfing any big wave, you know, you might catch only one or two waves that session, right?When you're surfing big waves of any kind, chances are, you know, unless you're Kai Lenny, you're not gonna catch that many waves per session. And as a result, there's a lot of time sitting. Uh, and in that sitting time you can start to daydream, uh, certain narratives. And one of the best things that, that I've found is to just try and stay focused on the tactile feeling of being out there, you know, cold water on the face.How do I feel in my body? Paddle strokes. Like, and, and for that reason, I have a real hard time going out to big waves on a boat and just jumping straight in the lineup because I, I feel that I don't get that warmup period of paddling out through Whitewater and just getting sens sensitized to my body.You know, it's a pretty weird thing that you can go out to a place like Mavs on a boat, paddle 15 strokes, and all of a sudden you're in 50 foot waves. Like that shouldn't happen. Right. You just feel like you're like dropped into a, a completely different atmosphere and uh, yeah. I mean, if I ever take a boat out there, I always make sure to paddle around a little bit, go underwater, do a few breath holes, and just get into the feeling of this new environment.Michael Frampton: , I imagine it. I just had a, a, a, a picture of, you know, when you, you're at a concert and you want to go to the front, your favorite band's about to come on and you want to, and you have to pick a line through just chaos. Pure chaos. Kyle Thiermann: Yeah. Yeah. Michael Frampton: And if you, and if you focus on the crowd and the different individuals, and it almost seems like there's no way through when it's just so overwhelming.But if you just try and look for the gaps in the crowd and be polite and make your way through, you end up. Navigating all of this chaos and you achieve your goal. I imagine that's what negotiating a drop at Mavericks is. Like, if you don't choose exactly where the center of your board is going to go, you might get clipped.Do you have to sort of ignore the, the, the chaos in a certain way? Or are you trying to Oh, a hundred Kyle Thiermann: percent. Yeah, a hundred percent. And, uh, you know, I once did a podcast, uh, with Grant Washburn, who's, who's Surfed Mavericks more times than anyone ever. I I think he, he's documented every session. He's been out there more than a thousand times.He was part of the really early crew to be out there, and he's still out there literally every time it breaks. I mean, this guy is one of surfing's most underground s of all time Grant Washburn. And I, I had him on my podcast and was, um, asking him about like, what do you, you know, what tips do you have?And he said, uh, Maverick's is a wave that you gotta cut off at the knees. And I was like, what do you mean by that? He's like, it's a slab. So you can't be on top of the wave when you're, when you are dropping in, you actually have to, like, you wanna be taking off on that wave, like you're cutting it off at the knees.Like taking, if, if Maverick's is a giant, you wanna be dropping in and the knees of that giant and it'll look like you're taking off from the top of it. But that was a really big unlock for me, surfing that wave, because how you fall out there is you, you are not paddling hard enough and you think that you're in the right spot, but really you're on top of the lip and then you're coming down with the lip, right?You need to be lower on a big wave than you think you are, um, to actually make that drop. So that changed where I was looking when I was paddling for waves. Now, if I'm, if I'm paddling, if down the face. The 20, 30 foot wave, I'm looking at the bottom of that wave. So directly in my line of sight, I'm, I'm looking at the trough saying I'm going to get there, like I'm sprint paddling to the bottom of the wave on camera.Then it looks like you're on the top of the wave because that water's sucking up so fast. But if you're not really putting all of your energy down the face, you're gonna be farked. And there was a whole season where I was just, I was going, I was just, um, poking my nose on like every wave. It was a, I had the wrong board and I was not thinking about that directly.And it was like, holy shit, am I one of those wipe out guys? Like, am I like one of those? I was like, I was, and it was fucking with me. I was like, I. I don't feel like I'm a kook. Like there are, there are kooks that surf mavericks who are really just not good surfers, and they yard sail on most waves. They go on and, and shouldn't be out there, but they, whatever, they're gladiators.Like, I'm not gonna tell 'em not to do it. Um, but it's not well respected. Like you're falling on every wave. Something's something should change. You shouldn't be celebrating all of your fucking wipe outs on big waves. Like it's dangerous. It's putting other people in danger. Like you should have a, you should have a pretty good batting average if you're gonna be doing this consistently.So there's this whole season where I was like. Dude, what is wrong with it? Like, I just keep falling. And part of the reason was that I, I was on a board that had two beaked of a nose, so it was poking down on the convex of the wave. But also I was just, I was just focusing on the wrong things. Like I just, I was not looking in the right spot.And it, you know, surfing bigger waves is on the face of it very simple because you are just going straight essentially, or maybe doing a big bottom turn. Um, and you can get lucky, you know, a very average surfer can paddle into it, a huge wave. But for the guys that are really good at it, , there's a, there's a delicate dance and there's so many details that are, that they're taking into account that you are, that you're just not seeing.And it's a, a very, , high performance sport, , under the hood. Michael Frampton: . Did any of those realizations at mavericks inform your small wave surfing?Kyle Thiermann: Hmm, good question. Yeah, I mean, I love talking about small wave surfing because that's what I do all the time and, and people don't really ask me about it, you know, I'm like, well, you get like a dozen sessions a year out in big waves. But the reality is like, I'm just a surfer and I enjoy surfing bigger waves.But, uh, yeah, and small wave surfing is, is just as much of a love for me. , The, the shift happened for me was starting to take notes on my sessions, , and I got this idea from Kai Lenny. He apparently has a notebook and he will jot down notes after all of his. His big wave sessions to try and improve on the last thing that he did.So it was a season, uh, 2021 was arguably the best season ever at Mavericks. Uh, it was just day after day after day of really clean waves. Uh, it was the season that Peter, Mel got his historic barrel out there, and I started taking notes on every session. I, I started noticing that you can sit a little deeper and a little further inside.A lot of people sit, I think, too far out and on the shoulder and just playing different games, going out with more of a strategy and then coming in, whether or not it worked, I would write down notes, um, and, you know, going into the details, right? And then coming out with more of a specific plan. , And then I took that approach to small wave surfing.Now, I'm, I'm not gonna lie and say that I write notes on every small wave session, but, . I found that if I would just go out and, and, and think about one thing, , so for me it was like, okay, I'm gonna try and do less turns on a wave, but not do the, the double bottom turn pump that I so, so horrifically still, uh, have adopted., I would improve, you know, and I could take that as a win if I would just go out and focus on one thing and then jot down those notes. It felt like it was giving me a stepping stone to improve as a surfer. , I think that that was probably the biggest habit I adopted, that started from big wave surfing that I now apply to small waves., Yeah, I, I'll I'll let you know if I think of any others, but just the note taking, uh, is something that I've, I've applied across the board. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Which is reflecting, you are just reflecting on the, on what happened. Totally. Kyle Thiermann: And that's a, you know, this is a real, um, big aspect of, of learning generally.There's, there's a huge amount of science around how we don't learn by doing. We learn by doing, then reflecting on doing, on doing. Um, neuroscientists have actually studied that the efficacy in, in learning a new language or, or any skill is just hugely ramped up by doing the thing. And then that night, writing down what you did and then having a good night of sleep.This is Matt Walker who wrote, uh, why We Sleep, really talks about sleep as a, as a superpower. And if you can reflect on what you did that day through a little five minute journal sesh, then go to sleep. Uh, it's a superpower. Right. And, and the problem with, I think one of the biggest problems with smartphones is that we.Cut off this potential for learning because right after we go surf, do a workout, even if it takes two minutes to just reflect on it, all of a sudden we're back on our phones looking at social media, looking at text, and we're not actually integrating what it is that we just did into an embodied skill.Michael Frampton: Yes, you're right. Smartphones have kind of robbed us from that. 'cause I grew up before smartphones and af after a surf, you, you just sort of sit and watch the ocean and drink some water. And I think there's an element of self-reflection and, and or talking about the session with your friends rather than just checking messages and onto the next thing.Kyle Thiermann: Boredom, man. Boredom is, uh, is one of the most powerful emotions we gotta bring back boredom in our culture if we want to, if we wanna move forward. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Like boredom forces a reflection of the details, perhaps. Kyle Thiermann: Yeah, I mean, it just gives, you know, there's, , these different kinds of consciousnesses, right?That, uh, it's been talked about by Michael Pollan, the writer who, , who wrote, uh, how to Change Your Mind book about psychedelics. And the, the different consciousnesses that he talks about are spotlight consciousness and lantern consciousness. So Spotlight is, I'm focused, I am, , on a wave directing where these thoughts are going.Fully engaged. Lantern consciousness is that soft eyed reflection looking out at the waves, just chilling. . Maybe you see connections, right? That's where metaphor comes in. Lantern consciousness. Like, oh yeah, this is kind of like that, which is kinda like this. And both are really important for the human brain to be engaged in on a daily basis., Our society is really set up for spotlight consciousness, just that highly caffeinated, white knuckling forward, and we don't, um, really give the value of lantern consciousness that it deserves. Um, you know, that's why, you know, driving is so nice for people, right? You just get to chill out and then you come up with bigger ideas with lantern consciousness, right?You're like, oh yeah, I should start that business. Or maybe this relationship isn't right for me, or, oh, you know what? I'm gonna marry that girl. Like you have big aha moments with lantern consciousness. So, um, it's, it's something that I think like exercise. We should try and make more room for. Michael Frampton: Yeah. I think that lanin consciousness only sort of comes about with calmness.You have to be calm and relaxed, get rid of that tunnel vision and be aware of everything. And also, you mentioned driving. I mean, the only, the only way that you can have that lanin consciousness when you're driving is because you have previously had spotlight consciousness on driving and you've learnt to see the details and the surface of the road through concentration and purposely having to do it where you're learning to drive.Right, Kyle Thiermann: right, right. Yeah. Michael Frampton: And then that, and then that becomes a, a bit of a habit and then. You go and teach someone else how to drive and you're like, oh, now I sort of take for granted how good I am at reading the road. Kyle Thiermann: Totally, totally. Yeah. Just, I mean, and, and Tom Carroll probably takes for granted just all of the micro details he's seeing in a wave, you know, that, that you or I might need to focus on still.Right? Uh, there's, um, there's, you might know about this already, but I'll, I'll say it to anyone who's interested. It's, there's these various levels of learning that people talk about, and the first level is unconscious incompetence. So let's take this to surfing. Unconscious incompetence is the kook who doesn't even know he's a kook.Like it's so oblivious to surroundings that has, that he has no idea how bad he even is or, or what a danger he's causing to the lineup. Conscious in incompetence is when this person actually realizes. How bad they are, and that's a step above unconsciousness. We're like, wow, I suck and I'm good enough to know how bad I suck.The next step is conscious competence where all of a sudden this person's been serving for a number of years. They know how to do it, they're getting better at doing it, but they need to think about the act on the water. And I would say that's where I am with my, my surfing. And very rarely am I in, in this the next stage, which is unconscious competence, where you don't even need to think about what you're doing and you can, uh, do it.Most of us are to that place when it comes to driving because we've driven for thousands and thousands of hours through our life. Like most of us are unconsciously competent at driving. But you can take those various spheres of learning, , and extra extrapolate 'em out to anything. It is pretty, , pretty fun to think about.Michael Frampton: Yeah. I guess with maybe with surfing, it's like if every time you drove. The road was different and treacherous and you would kind of be, there's sharks Kyle Thiermann: on the road. Michael Frampton: Yeah. You'd kind of be forced to be not quite so relaxed. And that's kind of, that, that's what makes surfing so unique and fun is it, is is always so, so different.But there are always details you can, you can focus in on. Um, I wanna segue into table tennis. Ooh, I'm ready for this. So I was listening to you interview Derek Sivers and you talked about your little secret, uh, table tennis tutelage. Kyle Thiermann: Yes. And you Michael Frampton: know, Derek Ss lives Kyle Thiermann: in New Zealand now. Yes, he does. In Wellington.Yeah. Yeah. He's, he's amazing. Derek Sivers was, uh, my top podcast guest that I wanted to interview when I started my show. Eight years ago. Michael Frampton: Yep. Kyle Thiermann: And I finally got him. It was a really, really special chance to, to get to sit down with him. And he was just everything I, I hoped he would be in more, you know, when you, when you get a hero on the show, part of you is afraid that there'll be an asshole.And I was very pleasantly surprised at what a, a humble and brilliant guy Derek Sives was. Who, people who don't know. He's a, um, an entrepreneur and, and philosopher has written a number of brilliant books. Michael Frampton: Yes. Yeah. I urge you to go and check out Kyle's interview of Derek and, uh, that will, that will give you a, a taste into Derek's world and his book.Oh, what's it called? How to Have Anything or Anything You Want, anything You Want. Great book. What a cool book. Just not just the concept and. What the content of the book, but just the way it's written. Kyle Thiermann: Oh my gosh. It's so good. Yeah. Uh, hell yes or no is another one, which basically means you should the answer to things.The answer to dec your decision making process should either be a hell yes or a no. Do you wanna go do this thing Hell yes or no? And, and so often we kind of make decisions with this. Yeah, okay. Maybe, but I use that, uh, framework pretty often in my life. But yes, table tennis, uh, do you want me to tell you the story?Yes, please. Okay. So in Santa Cruz where I grew up, , there is, or at least there was for years, a table tennis tournament. . At the end of, of the Cold Water Classic, which is the, the WQS contest that would come to town every year and all the, the big pros would, uh, would come to town and, , I fancy myself are pretty good table, table tennis player as do most people, right.We all, we all think we're pretty good, but, but my friends and I were, were vicious. , And at the end of the cold water classic Ryan Buell, who, who later started Buell Wetsuits, would do a tournament at his house and like all the best surfers would come. Luke Rockhold, who is this UUFC fighter from Santa Cruz, was a really good table tennis player as well.He would come, I think the win the winner of the tournament got a hundred dollars in a bag of weed. Like it was just epic, but like highly competitive. Right. And I, um, met Luke in the semifinals of the tournament one year. And he beat the shit out of me. I mean, this guy's just an incredible athlete with like a six four wingspan.And I was so pissed off that I went home that night and Googled table tennis coaches. And it turns out in Santa Cruz there's this place, it's like in this rec room beside this baseball field, and there are table tennis coaches and players that go down there Tuesday and Thursday night. So I show up at this like underground rec hall.There's 12 ping pong tables laid out. There's people with like sweat bands, short shorts, Nike shoes, a whole bag. Like people won't just bring one paddle, they'll bring a bunch of paddles and the everyone's sweating. It's, this is a like nearly a full contact sport the way these guys are playing. And I went up to one of the coaches and I said, will you teach me your ways?And he said, I will teach you my ways. So I went in there every Tuesday and Thursday for the next year and I didn't tell anyone that I was going there. There are a few, you know, let's just say that I thought I was consciously competent in ping pong when I went in there and very quickly realized that I was still in basically unconscious competence.Like in comparison to legitimate table tennis players. There are just layers to the game. You know, it's like youth being like a local average, good surfer and then having fanning paddle out and you're just like, wow. He goes way faster than any of us. We had no idea. I mean, these guys are on their toes.They, there's just so much strategy involved in essentially tr you know, what they're trying to do is get, get their opponent on their heels because the second you can get your opponent on their heels instead of on their toes, you have them. And the spins off these balls are just going so fast that the further the, the more velocity these spins pick up, the harder it is to, um, to get them.I mean there was this one dude, he was probably like six, six black dude from Trinidad who was like the champion. Oh my God. I mean, he was always on the last table because the, the better you got, like you get, you would get to like meet the, the next best guy. I never made it to even like play him once, but I trained and I got better and I went to ES tournament the next year and smoked the competition.Oh, that's cool. And it was. So fun to not tell anyone about this thing I was getting better at. Hmm. That's the real lesson for me, and it's something that I pretty often will, um, will do now. I mean, I've been working on this book. One last question before you go. For the last three years and really have not told many people that I was doing it, and the reason for that, you know, it's funny, funny you should mention Derek s Siver because he, he does a TED Talk on how you should not talk about your goals.The reason for this being that, the moment I tell you that I'm writing a book, let's say I, I just came up with the idea and I'm like, Hey, I'm writing this book, and you say, oh, congrats man, that sounds so awesome. That gives me a little ping of dopamine before I've even done any work. So it makes you feel like you're further along on your journey than you actually are.So. To, to keep goals tight to your chest, uh, until they're very far along, um, is something that I learned from ping pong and I still do to this day. Michael Frampton: Hmm. Yeah. You mentioned already that, I mean, there's such a difference when you, you think you're a good surfer, or you think that the local ripper at your local break is an amazing surfer, and then a pro comes out and they're surfing.Sometimes it literally feels like they're surfing three times faster than anyone else, to the point where it makes no sense and you think, well, they're not even surfing. They're, they're, they're doing something else. That's what it's like when you see pros play table tennis compared to your mate who kicks your ass all the time.The, this, the ball goes so much faster. They stand so much further back from the Yeah, it's, it's, it looks like a different sport, so yeah. Going through that journey of diving into that world of table tennis and you obviously improved, did it teach you anything? Did you learn any deep philosophical lessons about that table tennis journey that affected you at the rest of your life and in, in particular surfing?Kyle Thiermann: Yeah, I, I, um, I will say, you know, a, a, a couple things. I think first that, , it's really healthy as an athlete to cross train in other sports, , and sports that, you know, surfing is a hand, it's, you know, it's, it's very like leg eye coordination, right? And knowing where you want to go on that wave is often, dependent on where you're looking., Like you gotta look at the part of the lip that you want to hit. , And I think that you, you can develop some really bad habits if you're only surfing and, and, and lessons can come in from other sports. So, I mean, with table tennis, , being crouched, low hand eye coordination, , and really just, just being not very good at something, like being kind of new to it, I think is very healthy for the ego.My least favorite people are the pretty good surfers who never leave their home break and are just grumpy old fucks who don't try anything new in life. And it's just, they're so comfortable and so certain in what they do, and they're not really like pushing it. They're just doing the same thing over and over, and they're pissed off and they're grouchy about the crowd.And we all have these people in our hometowns, and to them I just say like, man, pick up a new sport and try it. Because that feeling of newness and wonder and humility does bleed through to the sport that you know very well. , So I always really, I, I, you know, they say in athletics like, you should be doing your sport a third of the time with people who are worse than you a third of the time with people who are better than you.And a third of the time with people who are you at your same level? That's what's gonna lead to the, the most improvement. And I think you can take that concept out to other sports where all of a sudden you're the lowest on the totem pole and you remember what it's like to suck again, super healthy. Michael Frampton: Hmm.Yeah. What's the difference in the way you, let's say, if you remember the first time you, , entered this table tennis hall, to then maybe the last time just before you went and, uh, and, and played the competition. Did, did you see the ball differently? Like, did you start seeing the way it spins? Like did you, did your eyes learn Oh yeah.To move faster? Kyle Thiermann: Yeah. Well, you pick up, um, you pick up tells from your opponent, you know, so for example, if a, what a lot of people will do who are just average table tennis players is they'll hit the ball and then they'll keep the paddle backhand waiting for the next. Shot. And if I see that you are continuing to hold it backhand, I'm gonna hit to your forehand or vice versa.Really good table tennis players will hit it and then they'll bring the paddle straight to the center so they're then ready to go backhand or forehand and I don't know then where they're gonna go. Right? And, and a lot of them, what I'm trying to do is hit it to a place where it's gonna be awkward for them to return, but the second I see that your, um, arm is, is you're just wide open on the forehand.Like, oh, I'm gonna hit it there every time. So you just start to, to notice more details of your opponent. , And I would've seen none of that had this coach not taught me. , I, I also, you know, I think this is just a constant struggle of mine, , but I expect a lot of myself. And if I'm not good at a new thing, pretty immediately I, I get angry.Like I've always been this way. Like I'm, I'm competitive. I think I should be good at stuff. , And when I'm not, it, it, there's a period of time where, you know, when I was younger I would just, I was a little shit. Like I would throw tantrums when I couldn't learn something new. And, and it was, there was a huge amount of, um, you know, the flip side of expecting a lot of yourself is that there's self-loathing as well.Like, it, you, you flip between grandiosity and, and believing in yourself and believing that you can do great things. And then you flip to, I'm the worst ever. I suck. I'm, there's no value that I can bring. And it's just both, both of these are delusions, right? Like none of us, it's, it's never as good as we think it is, and it's never as bad as we think it is.But that is a psychology that I don't think my parents gave me. I don't think I learned it for a minute. I think I was just born with that fucking fire. And it has allowed me to progress really quickly because I will just put my head down and train in secret for a year straight to, to win a stupid bing pong tournament.But there's a lot of, um, just like anger and pain that can come from that. I mean, I, I've never told anyone this, but I remember, I remember going to this ping pong , hall one night and getting my ass kicked so bad that I got back in my car. Started crying, like literally I was alone sitting in my driver's seat and just started crying.And, and it wasn't that like, oh, these guys beat me. It was this idea like, I fucking suck. Like I'm so worthless. I'm such a piece of shit. Like just that hard voice that has, has been with me my whole life. Like, it just comes, comes in when I'm learning a new thing and don't have the competence to do it yet., But that same thing is also, it can be an engine, right? Like it goes from that to like, I'll fucking see you next week. Let's do this. Like, you know, and that's the engine that I think has allowed me to get pretty good at surfing bigger waves, right? There is a lot of that. You see a lot of real, of good big wave surfers who are.Pretty dark, dark humans. Like they have that, that fuck you attitude like that, you know, it's, it's intense, you know, and they need that attitude to, to match the intensity of the ocean on those days. Um, and I love them, you know, I love them. Like one of my favorite people in the world is Jamie Mitchell, who, you know, he is won the 10 Paddle World Championships.He's an excellent big wave surfer. And like, I just, I'm like, I fucking see you brother. Like we are just intense dudes. Like we have that, that fucking fire. , And you know, for me, a lot of what I, and I think, you know, Jamie would say this too, he's very open about, about that. And we've had good conversations.Like to learn how to hold the knife and, and put a handle on the knife is, has been my work. Like to, to be able to know that you have this sharp edge, but you don't need to constantly be self-flagellating. , That, that's my, you know, life. That's, that's been my life path and my, and my lesson. I think the older I get, the better I am at just talking, speaking kindly to myself as I'm learning a new thing., Just being a bit more at cruising altitude and, and learning that, okay, that voice is probably never gonna go away, but there are a lot of tools I can learn to not spiral as low when I'm on that process. Michael Frampton: It's fueling, that's the fire. Right. And you gotta learn to channel it, I guess.Yeah, I think so. Kyle Thiermann: I mean, I don't, I, I think that. Anyone who, who does really great things, has a bit of a fire in them. And if you don't see it, it's, it's probably because they've just gotten good at hiding their ambition. Speaker 3: Hmm. Um, Kyle Thiermann: but it's there. It's there. And, and I, I li I'm happy to talk about it. 'cause I think it's just, it's very common for us, you know, to, to feel that like, ugh, like I, I don't like losing, like, I want to get better.I want to improve. , But there's a, a certain amount of that that can also destroy you, you know? And, and, and I don't want to live a life where I'm not feeling the joy of the moment, the joy of surfing. Like I love surfing. It's a beautiful life. I'm, I'm really grateful for all that I get to. Experience.Like, it's just, it's such a, I feel so lucky to have been born into a place where I started surfing. , My whole community, you know, my friends, they're surfers. It's, it's such a, a wonderful, um, thing to get to travel around the world, you know, have friends like you. I'm like, oh, if I go to New Zealand, I'm gonna go see you over there.And in South Africa and Mexico, like, that's not a normal thing that most people get to, you know, enjoy and experience. Like we have a really beautiful group, a community. And, and to constantly be lost in my own neuroses about how good or not good I am, like, man, you're just missing the fucking point. And you're gonna get to the end of your life and think, wow, I, I was not focusing on the right thing.So it is getting better. And I do a lot, , like noticing the details to get outta my own way and just, you know, enjoy the session. Smell the flowers. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah. It's on the seaweed. Noticing the details is something you've said a couple of times with the table tennis thing. You like, you're noticing the way that your opponent is holding the bat, and that informs your decision of what, so it's like slowing time down and focusing on the details is what allowed you to get better at table tennis.Kyle Thiermann: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, Michael Frampton: make, make smaller circles. Kyle Thiermann: Right? Michael Frampton: And then when you sat down to interview your father, I mean, that's kind of what you did. You slowed down and you focused in on the details of him. Kyle Thiermann: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is, uh, man, we're, we're, we're stretching this metaphor, metaphor all the way across life.But yes, I, I just came out with my first book, one last question before you go. It's, uh, a book about how and why to interview your parents before they die. Uh, and, and you know, the, the punchline of it is that. You know, your parents are just people, um, who have had lives long before you were born. And sitting down, stepping outta the role of child and into the role of journalist of interviewer can allow them to really take the floor and tell a few of these great stories before it's too late.Um, you know, if they're surfers. I'm, I'm doing a, a project with Surfer Magazine right now where we get surfers to ask their parents who are also surfers about like some of these classic sessions. Worst Wipe Out Best Barrel Your life. How has surf culture changed since you were. Younger. Um, a a lot of this stuff we just don't know about our parents 'cause we've never taken the time to ask.So the book is, you know, it's a how to manual on this is how you conduct a suc a successful interview. And it's also a memoir, uh, that includes, um, my mom, my dad, my stepdad, you know, a number of conflicts that we went through. But, um, really finding specific questions is one pathway to get great stories out of someone.Right? So, a, you know, what are you, you know, if you're asking what's the meaning of life to your parent, they're probably not gonna give you a great answer. But if you ask, tell me about that classic day in 1973 at Honolulu Bay, uh, when it was just you and two buddies out and they tell that great story, um, it's gonna be gold.You know, you're, you're gonna walk away with some digital family heirlooms that, uh. You'll be happy about. It's a fun thing. It takes about an hour to do, even on the smallest scale, right? You could just bust out your phone on the way to go surfing or, or at ho on the holiday with your parent and, uh, ask 'em some questions.And it can lead to some very unexpected places that can feel oddly psychedelic, um, because it can recontextualize them in your mind. And, and it's just a, you know, and at the end of the day, it's a nice thing to do for them. 'cause I think a lot of parents believe and, and think that their par that their kids don't have much of an interest in them.So it's a, you know, for me that was an unexpected benefit of this, just how much my parents enjoyed being able to tell the stories of their lives. Michael Frampton: Why did you want to interview your father for your podcast in the first place? How did that come about? Kyle Thiermann: Yeah, I, it was COVID and I was just, uh, it was COVID and I was scared he was gonna die.You know, we were all really afraid, I think, during COVID, like, whoa, what is this pandemic? Um, how is it gonna affect us, the elderly? And I was forced to reckon with the fact that he wasn't gonna be around forever. So I decided to have him on my podcast. He told some, some epic stories, you know, he's this old documentary filmmaker who goes to the Santa Cruz flea market every weekend and Haggles, and, you know, owns only secondhand gear that he glues together.He has a famous line where he says, you can fix anything with glue duct tape, or a hammer. You know, like, that's his, his wife motto. He's probably gonna put it on his grave. But I, uh. I then released the show and a lot of people reached out. They were like, Hey, I want to interview my own parents. This seems like a fun thing to do.I've done over 400 episodes on my show and was like, well, you know what? There, as you know, Michael, like, there's a skill to this and you do improve your interviewing craft. So I decided that it could be a, um, it could be a book. At first, the first draft was very like, how to manual B, B, B. And then I gave it to some writers that I really respect and they're like, man, you gotta be more personal with this.You need to really let me know what it did for you. This is, yeah, it can be a cool thing, but it can also be intense to sit down with your parents face to face. And a lot of those, you know, we, we so often will, will build resentment, uh, towards our parents and they'll build resentment towards us. And there's this empathy wall that.Grows between us. , And that's, it's so common and it's so painful that the idea of sitting across from mom and dad and really looking them in the eye and asking them questions about their life can feel terrifying. Um, and you know, my, my story is that growing up I had a very close relationship with my mom.She fell prey to a number of conspiracy theories that fractured. Our relationship in various ways, because we no longer saw the same world, right? We, we today still believe very different things about, about the world. Maybe your parents aren't conspiracy theorists, but maybe you disagree with them about politics or parenting style or just how they see you.You know, that it's very common for us to have these ideological fractures. Questions are a way to open that up and, and take a step closer. You know, it's like there is this empathy drug, right, called questions. , But, but it's not a drug, it's a chair and a microphone. , So I found that after taking this year of, of interviewing my parents multiple times, it recontextualized them in my mind.It just added color to, wow. Who was my mom in college. She went to Berkeley during the 1960s when protests were happening, and the psychedelic revolution was fully in vogue. And wow. My dad, he was a, he's traveled the world as a documentary filmmaker. He, he was a magician in high school, paid his way through high school doing magic shows, you know, with tuxedo and top hat, like my stepdad, who, who who you know, has spent the last 20 years pushing conspiracy theory, documentaries onto the world like it.I mean, that, I was angry about that. And yet I didn't wanna lose that relationship. There's, we only have one family, and I, I believe that as adult children, it's kind of on us to take that step forward. Um, we are more well equipped than our parents if we can, you know, and I'm not saying that everyone should interview their parents.I'm not saying it's for everyone. You know, some people, the best course of action is to know, to go no contact. I don't know your parents, but I will say that if it feels possible to open up that crack, do it. You, you really won't regret it. And, and if anything, you're just going to deepen your shades of who these people are., And it's, man, I mean, it, it's being on the other side of it now, you know, books out. A lot of people are interviewing their parents. Like, I'm really happy I took a personal approach to this story. , You know, it really is, it's a story about having a mom, losing her to conspiracy theories and using the interview process to get her back.But I, I, like, I, I interact with her now and, , I'm not as mad. Like it's a weird. I'm just not, I'm like, wow, I'm, I see you as a person and all of our stumbles and all of our hopes and all of our intents, like, I just have more like empathy for, for what what you are and who you are. And that feels fucking good, man.Like, it feels really, , like I'm more complete in that relationship. , Michael Frampton: Yeah. You under understanding, you understand that? I do. Kyle Thiermann: Yeah. And it, and to, it's like that, and that made the whole book worth it for me. It's like, man, it's success. All the, all the success is secondary to that feeling that I, that I get, you know, like I, and same with my dad, you know, and we all, we all, uh, it's around the holidays, right?And how often do we go home? Turn into petulant little teenagers again, right? Because we're like, oh my God, I can't believe you always do this. You're so annoyed. He goes on and on about this, did it like it's, you know, we regress too and become less mature around our parents. I would always get mad at my dad for, you know, he just goes on these like fricking soapbox tirades about like the world and how it's going to hell in a hand basket and dah.I'm just like, oh my God. You know, I always would like get mad at him, right? And, and we recently went on a crabbing trip together up in Northern California. , And I found out I was just more chill around him. I was like, man, you're doing your thing. Like, it just a, it, it affected me less and that was a real win for me to be able to get on the other side of it and be like, wow, I, I was able to just be more chill around you.'cause I see you as more than my dad. I see you as. As this person who I still really enjoy spending time with. Michael Frampton: Would he articulate anything similar? Like is he aware of the, the change in the relationship dynamics since that process? Kyle Thiermann: I think he would, yeah. Yeah. I think he would. He, he said, you know, this was a really rocked me when I first interviewed him, but he said, uh, he said, you know, I, I don't think you would've asked me any of these questions if we weren't doing an interview.You know, we, like, you're not curious about me. You're not, you've never been curious about me. And, and it made me feel really sad because he was right. I've prided myself on being a good question asker for my whole life. And yet I was not using that skill on the people who mattered most to me. Right. And, and I think that I've developed, um, more of a habit since then of asking how he's doing, asking what he's been up to recently., The, the quality of question asking should extend beyond. Just a formal interview setting. You know, that's a training session for you. But the real benefit that I hope people get outta the book is to become better question askers generally. Michael Frampton: Hmm, I I think what you said is not right.I don't think that, so he, he may be perceived that you weren't interested. I don't think that's true. 'cause you wouldn't have gone to, you wouldn't have made a point of creating all, all you needed was a way to do it and you're like, okay, if we sit down and record it, then that just somehow for some reason, just sitting down in front of a microphone and the conversation being recorded, that creates the space for a different type of conversation, which allows you to push through the fear you had of maybe asking your dad this question.'cause you might get the response that you had when you, when you asked a question when you were 13 or whatever. Kyle Thiermann: Right. Or it could be awkward to ask a, you know, so what's, , what failure in life, in early life do you now see as a success? Right? Like, that could be an awkward question to ask in the context of a regular conversation, but it's a great question to ask during an interview.Mm-hmm. So, yeah. I mean, you, you could be right. I mean, I think that the way he felt was that his kids were, were not interested in him. And the way I felt was there's no, or there's, it's harder to really go deep into the stories of someone's life when you're not in a formal interview. Setting. So I, yeah, it, it really did just take that podcast for us to take that next level in.And, , an interview is similar to a conversation, but there are a few key differences. You know, one is that you're really driving it as the interviewer, you're deciding where, where it is that we want to go next. You don't need to necessarily respond to what he's, to what your interview is. E is saying you can just move on to a new subject., You know, it's, it's similar to conversation, but there are a few key differences that it can allow the person you're sitting down with to, to go deeper. Michael Frampton: Well, it changes the dynamic. You are, you are the interviewer of another human rather than the son of someone, which, Kyle Thiermann: exactly. Michael Frampton: It's so hard to, I, I can see why he might think that.Oh, I can see why any parent might think, oh, my kids aren't really that interested. Well. You are their parent, they're always gonna see you as a parent unless you break that mold. And that's what I really like about what you've done. And I, I bought, I bought my parents. There's a book called, uh, I Want to Mom, I want to Know Your Story.Yeah. I bought, I bought one of those books from my parents years ago, and I don't think they ever opened it. And they certainly didn't fill it in. Yeah, totally. Kyle Thiermann: Yeah. I, I bless their hearts to everyone who gets that book. I mean, it's the, the issue that, and, and, and I mean, I, look, I, I hope people enjoy that book and they get value out of it.The issue that I see, , is that you're asking your parents to write down the stories of their lives, which is expecting them to be a great writers who can fill it in with vivid detail. , And b, expecting that that chicken scratch is gonna be meaningful to you later. , For me the, the value of audio and is really the, the, the bullseye here., You know, my grandmother, um, she was a hundred years old. She passed away recently, and my mom, the day after she died, realized that one of the only recordings that she had of her, her own mother's voice was a, a happy birthday voicemail that she had left her. Like that was one of the few pieces of evidence of the, the tone and resonance of this woman's voice that had ever actually been saved and recorded.Um, and you know, when it comes to my own parents, like it's not just about what it is that they said. It's not just about the stories of their lies, it's how they sounded, you know, voice is. Voice is so different than just words on a page. , So if you can, yeah. I mean, by all means, have them fill out the stories on, on a piece of paper, but really, you know, pull out your phone, use the voice memos app, or get pro microphones and, and get them to tell the stories into a microphone, because that's what, um, there's just a, a, a, a resonance and warmth that I think can come from audio.Michael Frampton: Do you think that those com the con, let's say I interview my mom and I record it now, she certainly wouldn't be happy with me, , posting that on the podcast, but she might be open to me sharing it with my siblings and maybe a cousin. Is that something that you recommend, like sharing the interview or is it a personal thing?Yeah. Kyle Thiermann: Well, we live in a time where it's easier than ever to record. And these digital fairly air digital family heirlooms can be passed down through the generations. There's never been a time in history where it's as easy to record a piece of media and potentially have a go and exist on for 10,000 years.You know, it's pretty amazing that we could spend an hour and it could be focused purely on your family history. What do you know about my great-grandfather? Um, where did we come from? Just to be the bearer of that, , story and then share that with your family is one way to go about the interview. Just really as a, a product of posterity, , I think it's really important to ask the whoever it is that you're interviewing permission, Hey, can I share this publicly?Can I share it with the family? But if they do, , save those recordings, make sure other people know where those recordings are. . You know, write along with all your passwords to your accounts and just take the time to do it. You know, it's, it's, it's a little bit like writing a will, you know, it's something like people don't want to take the time to do, but then when you don't, it can really screw things up.And there's a lot of unknowns that are just left to the rest of the family. , And I don't wanna make it seem that it's sound like it's a, a hard thing to do, or just sad. Like it can be a, a ton of fun to get your parents' stories as well. , But the first thing I recommend doing in the book is just to set the date and the rest will follow.I, my mom, , is really good about this actually. She broke her hip a number of years ago and her left hip and femur. And, and right after she realized that she really did not have her things in order. So she created this something called a gravity pack, which was like passwords to her accounts, her will, uh, music that touched her photographs from her life.. Family history and then also, , these audio recordings will go in there. So it's, she's very organized and, , ha has done this work that is gonna save her kids quite a lot of, uh, pain later on Michael Frampton: and have Kyle Thiermann: Precious, my dad, he's, my dad's more of a, he's more of a flea market junk guy, and we're gonna have a lot to deal with after he dies.But, , you know, bless his heart, we'll do it. Michael Frampton: No, it's, it's a really cool concept, man, and it's, it's such a cool, such a cool idea for a book and obviously you want to inspire other people to do it and give them guidelines on how to do it. You've obviously thought about this a lot, do you have a framework or a method perhaps, or some ideas in which ways , how people can come up with original questions?Kyle Thiermann: Sure. Absolutely. And I really recommend that people take the time to come up with original questions. Every chapter in One last question before you go is a question, say, every chapter title is a question. There's bonus questions at the end, but I also say that the best questions are gonna be original to your parents' lives.They're not gonna be general, you know, what's your favorite band? Or, you know, who, who is your high school crut? Like, it, it should be specific to what made you want to take that trip to Indonesia when you were 19. Tell me about that moment. So,, if you're having a question asking session. I recommend breaking your parents' lives up into four chunks.So this could be childhood, early adult, , late adult, and you know, where they are now. , Just breaking it up into, , you know, 15 year chunks. And then try and write five questions under each of those chunks, right? Get into the details, break it into smaller circles. Um, and if you'd spend 20 minutes breaking your parents' lives into four chunks, asking specifics about what was going on at each of those moments, , you will come up with a bunch of questions.Another thing that I recommend when flexing this muscle is once your parents agree to the interview, get them to send you photographs from their lives, and then you can use those photographs as prompts to get them to tell stories. Ultimately, what you want out of your, your mom or dad is to. Get them to tell stories and stories will come from a photograph.You can literally slide it across the table and say, tell me the story of this photograph. , We often speak in generalities. , And that doesn't do much for, for good audio. What you want are specific stories where they're bringing you into that situation. , So photographs breaking and then breaking your, , parents' lives into four chunks are two great tips.And then the third is, , get them to talk about their decision making process. So, , it's not just what college did you go to? It's like, what made you want to go to that school? What, why, what? And, and you're getting now into their head and they're like, well, you know, I wanted to go here, but I decided to go here 'cause I had this crush on this guy.And boom, all of a sudden you're in a story. . This is what Charles duh Higg the author of, , a number of books like The Power of Habit Super Communicators, called Deep Questions. Don't Just Ask about the Facts of Their Lives. Ask how they feel about their lives. And if you do that, , you will conduct a pretty good interview., Those are the tips. Michael Frampton: Yeah. You gotta get into the details. Kyle Thiermann: Yes. Bam. Michael Frampton: The ever finer details. . Well, Kyle, thank you so much for your time. The book is called one last question before you Go. Kyle Thiermann: When does it come out? It is out right now. Michael Frampton: It is available on Amazon, I'm assuming?Yes, it is. Awesome. Your website is kyle chairman.com.Kyle Thiermann: Yeah, that's probably the best way to find me. And, uh, feel free to reach out if you, uh, if you do end up interviewing your parents, I'd love to hear from any of you listeners out there, how it goes, what you find.I find that, that, you know, writing a book is just the start of a conversation. It's not the end. Yeah. So I wanna, I'm putting this out in the world, but I am very much looking forward to hearing how it's received and what people do with it. Michael Frampton: Yeah, I I'm sure you will hear lots. It's pretty cool. And, uh, Kyle also has a, is it nearly, you've done like over 400 episodes of your podcast?How many now? Kyle Thiermann: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that we, I, I am at 400 right now. Wow. Michael Frampton: Yeah. We just did 400. That's, that, that's impressive. So I urge everyone to go and listen to, it's very eclectic. Like there is a lot of surfing stuff in there, but there's also just a lot of life stuff. And, , some really cool interviews, a great podcast to, to cherry pick and dive in.I especially like the one with Derek Sivers. I'm a big fan of Derek Sz, , as well. He's such a unique, well thought out human and, uh, it's a great interview. , Gosh, Kyle, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it. , There will be links to everything, Kyle podcast book stuff in the show notes so you can, you don't have to write this down now, you can go and click, and dive into Kyle's world.Thank you, Kyle. Kyle Thiermann: Thank you Michael. 130 How Details Transform Surfing, Self-Talk & Relationships with Kyle Thiermann The Surf Mastery Podcast: For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfe - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced