Polly Mackenzie is CEO at Demos, a cross-party think tank in the United Kingdom. She's also worked at the centre of government within the 2010-15 coalition, and run a charity focusing on money and mental health. In the current fractious political environment Demos looks at big challenges like wealth inequality, "building back" after covid-19, and social protection for the most marginalised. We talk a lot about how to "do" public policy in a complex democracy -- in particular how to bring more human experience, more everyday behaviour, into the process. But we also go deep on what that means for the people who work in public service. What mindset should we start with? How do we set our ambitions, and sense of self-worth, when we can't possibly control the outcomes? --- Episode notes: [02:25] Talking about public policy at the school gate, or with family. What opens the door to a good conversation, and what closes it. [11:00] Early motivations to work in government, possibly due to too many West Wing episodes. A key role in the UK’s coalition government from 2010-15. [15:20] Dealing with a “crushing” electoral defeat, and finding a new path outside of government. How and why she got started in the third sector. [24:00] The tough reality of working in politics vs the “seductive” idea of being a change-maker. The severe emotional toll of electoral defeat. [28:55] Adjusting her criteria for self-worth. Letting go of the “narcissism” of imagining huge changes in the world, and finding ways to make a dent. [35:00] The role of think tanks in a modern democracy. The imperative of understanding the lived experience of citizens. The tendency of policy wonks to mis-categorise questions as technical rather than emotive and political. [42:10] What success looks like, seen from a think tank. How we can better grapple with the biggest challenges, like social welfare reform, by legitimising experience and humanity in public policy. [47:00] Advice to her younger self as a policy analyst. Finding a “third way” between populism and policy elitism.

Dao X. Tran is Managing Editor of Voice of Witness, which develops oral histories and education programs to amplify the voices of people impacted by injustice. Recent projects have included the aftermath of Hurricane Maria, indigenous Americans, and settlement of refugees in Appalachia. (You can find all their projects at voiceofwitness.org .) We start with her early years in Philadelphia, as a child refugee in a working class neighbourhood split by serious divides, and a path into social justice activism. We then get into the ethics and practice of oral history with marginalised communities. How to select stories that matter; how to centre narrators themselves rather than one’s own agenda; and how to bring this to a wider audience. --- Show notes: [05:45] Growing up in a refugee and working class neighbourhood in Philadelphia. Not seeing those kinds of narratives reflected in education and popular culture. [11:00] Identifying areas where oral history projects can add value. Taking strategic decisions about what a US-based organisation can best contribute. [19:15] The process of doing oral history. Finding interlocutors, building their narratives, keeping yourself out of the way. [26:40] Avoiding an overall “story”, and a sense of closure that wouldn’t be true to reality. [30:10] Where oral history fits into formal education. Building spaces for new points of view. [34:00] Links between oral history of marginalised groups, and social justice activism. What changes because of all this. Doing all this during the covid-19 pandemic, and at the peak of the #blacklivesmatter movement. [45:35] Finding “urgent” stories and not trying to do everything. Work with Native American communities. [52:10] Critical tasks. Respecting and supporting narrators rather than introducing one’s own ideas. Respecting their particular voice. A few key influences in this regard.

Kumekucha is a program to help people process conflict and trauma, and to craft new narratives for themselves. It’s running at the community level in coastal Kenya and Nairobi, for people affected by police brutality, by gang violence, and a whole range of adverse personal circumstances. (I strongly recommend checking out the Green String Network’s channel on Youtube for some of their short participant videos, which speak much more eloquently than I can.) In this episode we hear from two of the people involved. Onyango is an accomplished poet and story-teller, as you’ll hear very quickly, and has been very open about trauma in his own life. Kaltuma is a program manager who is wrapping her head around some very hard questions of design and delivery, and building on a family legacy. --- Show notes: (Onyango Otieno) [02:45] The importance of story-telling around painful experiences. Overcoming his own difficult past. [07:00] The Kumekucha model for helping people to process trauma and develop a new narrative. Tools & tactics for facilitating this kind of difficult conversation. [12:00] How change at the individual level relates to entrenched problems at the community or institutional level. [14:10] Experimenting with a Whatsapp platform as an enabling space for necessary conversations, including about mental health. [17:40] Managing his own wellbeing when facilitating this kind of draining conversation. Ethical challenges dealing with institutions like the national police. [24:20] The need for a paradigm shift in Kenya around mental health. Key influences and inspirations when growing up. (Kaltuma Noorow) [29:35] Trauma within different communities in Kenya. Crime, abuse of authority, domestic abuse, and violent extremism. [33:30] The community-based trauma healing model. Mobilising resourceful people. Finding helpful ways to facilitate this kind of tough conversation. [36:55] Some experiences with how people changed and moved past trauma. And some where people didn’t succeed and slipped backwards. [42:00] Dealing with the fact that most participants live in very difficult circumstances. Setting the right expectations, and finding agency where it’s possible. [45:55] Feeling like an outsider as a Somali-Kenyan. When it’s useful to be conscious of difference as well as connection. [48:45] Managing the tensions & risks of holding a space for people on extraordinarily sensitive subjects. [52:05] Building on her mother’s legacy of conflict resolution in northern Kenya. Dealing with conflict in her own life before (and while) trying to help others.

Kate Moger is Regional Vice-President for the Great Lakes region at the International Rescue Committee. She's based in Nairobi, although currently that’s in flux due to COVID-19. We start with her rather interesting route into the sector by way of a dubious Russian travel agency, some traumatic early experiences, and how and where this turned around into a fulfilling career. We then go deep on professionalisation and ethics in the humanitarian sector, and what this means for managing people in the present day. This includes her own experiences caring for a young child, and where the sector still needs to grow away from its macho roots. Show notes: [02:45] Avoiding conversations about her work. Why it’s hard when things tend to get ‘quite deep, quite fast’. [06:25] A trajectory that runs through the UK, South Sudan, DR Congo, Cote d’Ivoire, Mali, and Kenya. But starting off at a questionable Russian travel start-up in a living room. [11:45] Working for deaf-blind people and children at risk in the UK. Studying at the same time to help do justice to the seriousness of the work. [15:10] Landing in South Sudan not terribly well prepared. Several hard learning moments, and returning to the UK in a fragile condition. [22:50] A very different experience in the DR Congo. Changing her attitude to people, and to learning. How the humanitarian system approaches those critical first few early-career jobs. [29:40] The appeal of working in politically tough and insecure environments. The importance of solidarity, and looking for situations where there’s a very clear case for outside help. [37:55] Worrying about taking up space that would be better filled by others. Necessary structural changes in the humanitarian sector, including difficult conversations about power. [47:00] Lessons learned over a long career. People being emotionally ready to change the way the humanitarian sector operates. [50:30] How the sector treats its people. Experiences as a mother.

(Bonus coronavirus lockdown episode) Ahmed Famau Ahmed is one of the facilitators that works with the “Healing the Uniform” initiative that we discussed in episode #031. But he’s not a career professional. Instead he came into this because of his own history of being arrested, interrogated, and mistreated by the police. In this conversation he talks about his experiences growing up in coastal Kenya, police profiling on the basis of his dialect and appearance, and introducing that perspective to a training room.

Gitahi Kanyeki is a 36-year veteran of the Kenya National Police Service. His career spans operations against cattle rustlers in Turkana, to extraordinary violence in Nairobi after the 2008 elections, to internal action against serious misconduct. That history has entailed more than anyone’s fair share of traumatic experiences, both for him and for his family. In this episode we talk about what that was like to live and work through — and beyond that what can be done, and is being done, for trauma recovery within an institution like the NPS. Our first half is with Gitahi himself, and in the second half we switch perspective to Bonface Beti. He's a program manager with the Green String Network, and he talks very eloquently about design and delivery. He also speaks to the challenges of supporting an institution that is often maligned, within Kenya, and often with good cause. (Our previous episode, 030, was on this very topic.) Taken as a whole this is a reflection on the personal costs and the rewards of service within an institution that is indisputably necessary, while also indisputably flawed.

Wangui Kimari is an urban anthropologist, currently affiliated with the African Centre for Cities. She’s done a range of interesting things but this conversation focuses on work in her home town of Nairobi—and in particular the Mathare area, which if you know the city is often labelled as a slum or sort of den of iniquity. The recurring theme is the attempt to do things differently in the face of a stifling, or broken, status quo. What does public authority and urban planning when seen from the point of view of marginalised communities? What questions do those communities themselves want answered, as opposed to those that researchers want to focus on? And once you have some answers, how do they fit into a political conversation that’s been built on the rhetoric of “development” for several generations now? This is a timely episode — not because it is “about” COVID-19, but to equip us to think about distancing & public hygiene as seen from marginalised spaces. What should experiences in the past tell us about how things will play out in the near future?

Donata Garrasi has worked on conflict dynamics for twenty-five years, in a career spanning operational, policy and consulting roles. She presently works as Director of Political Affairs for the UN Special Envoy for the Great Lakes. In one sense this might sound like a straightforward story. But walking through the steps, it really wasn’t. It was a series of self-starting, purposeful and often risky moves to find ways to make a contribution. What drives and sustains that kind of motivation? What happens when it’s frustrated by events on the ground that you can’t control? How does it balance with other aspirations in life? As always, all views are personal and don't reflect anyone's official position. --- Show notes: [00:00] Describing peace and conflict work to the general public. Unexpected sticking points. [05:10] Growing up in Italy with an interest in politics. First steps abroad, from an internship in New York to refugee response in the remotest part of Guinea-Conakry. [12:00] Key learning from early experiences around Liberia, Sierra Leone and Western Sahara. Looking behind humanitarian crises to the political decisions that create them. [17:35] Strong early role models that understood the why & the how of influencing key decisions. Learning about conflict dynamics at the end of the ‘90s in West Africa. [22:35] The rationale for moving between different countries. What it means to be a specialist in unpacking and addressing conflict dynamics. [27:25] A stint in the policy world with the OECD, at the juncture of aid and politics. Trying to help the sector as a whole learn some much-needed lessons. [36:05] The International Dialogue on Peacebuilding and Statebuilding. Motivation and meaning when working on complex and highly political inter-governmental processes. [40:30] The opportunities and limitations of consulting work. Freedom versus the frustrations of being peripheral to decision-making. [44:40] Fitting all the pieces together. Playing big when it comes to highly political jobs, and the highly contentious politics of peace & security. [51:40] Sustaining motivation when things just aren’t going the right way. When it’s more ethical to move onwards than to stay in place and keep trying. [59:45] Reflections on a long (and still-evolving) career. Experiences as a woman in the sector.

Babatunde Afolabi has worked on mediation and conflict transformation in West Africa for pretty much all of his adult life—first at the Economic Community of West African States (ECOWAS), and then with the Center for Humanitarian Dialogue. This experience spans the full range of political conflict: “democratic reversals” and refusals to leave power, military coups, contested elections, the rise of extremist movements, and entrenched sub-national violence. With this as background we get into the nuts and bolts of inter-governmental diplomacy, “private” diplomacy, and the differences between the two. This is informed in part by ’Tunde’s own upbringing under a military regime in Nigeria, and the return to democratic rule in 1999. As always, all views are personal and don't reflect anyone's official position. --- Show notes: [04:30] Education in Ibadan, in south-west Nigeria. Finding his way due to the right mentor figures at the right time. 10:20] Growing up under a military regime, and becoming politically conscious. Early resolve not to work on conflict in Nigeria, and a fascination with Liberia’s history and culture. [17:45] Work with ECOWAS on conflict prevention, and the mid-2000s as the high water mark for the institution. Some unconventional but effective approaches in Niger and Guinea. [27:00] Loss of momentum for ECOWAS conflict prevention as the regional political environment evolved. Deciding to move on to work for West Africa through other means. [31:15] Pursuing a PhD as an ‘experiment to self-criticise’. Switching focus from Track 1 diplomacy to the role of civil society actors. [34:40] A second stint at ECOWAS. Knowing when to move on because the conditions aren’t right. Hopes and regrets about the potential of the institution. [41:30] Moving to the Centre for Humanitarian Dialogue. How “private diplomacy” fits into international conflict resolution, and its distinct niche in West Africa. Efforts in the Gambia, and back in Nigeria (despite early intentions!). [51:10] Getting ‘access’ as a mediator, and what brings real value to an entrenched conflict. Key skills and relationships developed over a career in the sub-region. [57:10] Moving from West Africa to a broader remit. Staying humble and curious, and avoiding ‘experts’. Staying focused on the African continent, and ambitions for the future. [1:04:00] Key points of learning over a rich career in conflict resolution. A few book recommendations to close.

Johnny is a photographer and activist who's based in South Africa. (You can find much of his work at millefoto.com.) He’s best-known for his drone photo series Unequal Scenes. These images are striking and almost violent: shanty towns abutting stately suburban homes; a slum wedged in beside a gleaming financial district. In this interview we talk about his broader ambitions to shift the narrative around stark economic inequalities, both in his adopted home of South Africa and further afield. We get into the artistic process of finding and developing images; the personal costs and difficulties that come with provoking debate; and the power of a different way of seeing to give new perspectives on a very old problem. --- Show notes: [04:20] The need for a new narrative around inequality. Difficulties of communicating complex socio-political issues, and learning from the climate action movement. [07:50] The original “lightbulb moment” where drone photography enabled something very familiar to be seen in a completely new way. [11:30] The “accidental epiphany” of the very first Unequal Scenes photo, of Masiphumelele in Cape Town. Surprising and almost immediate reactions from all segments of South African society. [19:20] The process of researching and selecting images. His trademark “violent” style of urban photograph. Scenes that are sticky and resonate with the wider public, versus ones that are equally important but perhaps too subtle. [29:20] Getting pushback from experts and activists. The ethics of provoking conversation on divisive social/political issues. [40:00] Some more ground-level work, including with Syrian refugees and in slums around the world. Differences between the “top-down” perspective and looking people in the eyes and building trust. [46:40] The difference between highlighting structural problems and telling stories. The power of keeping the project tightly focused (despite criticism!). [52:55] Drone technology as a democratic enabler. The AfricanDRONE network to support communities to tell their own stories, and disrupt industries that need disrupting. [1:01:15] The place of Unequal Scenes within the political landscape of South Africa. What kind of impact he wants to have as an artist working on inequality and linked political issues.