Episode Notes Join hosts Jezel and Valentina as they share how their first-generation, lower-income and Latina identities intersect at Northwestern and beyond.  Are you interested in sharing how your ethnic/racial background interacts with your identity as a first-gen and/or low-income student at Northwestern? Please reach out to us– Valentina’s email is [email protected]. A North by Northwestern podcast. This episode was hosted by Jezel Martinez and Valentina Parra. Edited by Dallas Thurman. Cover art by Olivia Abeyta. Follow North by Northwestern: Instagram – @northbynorthwestern X – @nbn_tweets Tik Tok – @northbynorthwestern

Episode Notes Special episode! Join hosts Dallas and Aryn as they share how their first-generation, lower-income, and Black identities intersect at Northwestern and beyond. Are you interested in sharing how your ethnic/racial background interacts with your identity as a first-gen and/or low-income student at Northwestern? Please reach out to us– [email protected] A North by Northwestern podcast. This episode was hosted by Aryn Honaker and Dallas Thurman. Edited by Dallas Thurman. Cover art by Olivia Abeyta. Follow North by Northwestern: Instagram – @northbynorthwestern X – @nbn_tweets Tik Tok – @northbynorthwestern

Episode Notes Join hosts Dallas, Jezel, Aryn and Valentina as they discuss what to consider when committing to Northwestern as a FGLI student. They cover special programs like SES, what side of campus to live on, choosing a major and what it’s like being so close to a big city like Chicago. A North by Northwestern podcast. This episode was hosted by Aryn Honaker, Jezel Martinez, Valentina Parra, and Dallas Thurman. Edited by Dallas Thurman. Cover art by Olivia Abeyta. Follow North by Northwestern: Instagram – @northbynorthwestern X – @nbn_tweets Tik Tok – @northbynorthwestern

Episode Notes Join hosts Dallas, Jezel, Aryn, and Valentina as they reflect on their college application journey as FGLI students. They cover choosing colleges, acceptance reactions, getting that financial aid package, and writing essays. A North by Northwestern podcast. This episode was hosted by Aryn Honaker, Jezel Martinez, Valentina Parra, and Dallas Thurman. Edited by Dallas Thurman. Cover art by Olivia Abeyta. Follow North by Northwestern: Instagram – @northbynorthwestern X – @nbn_tweets Tik Tok – @northbynorthwestern

Episode Notes Join hosts Dallas, Jezel, Aryn, and Valentina in their second episode of DiscountEDU, part two of their first episode. They discuss adjusting to the academic rigor of the school, switching up routines, and dealing with PWI/socioeconomic culture shocks. A North by Northwestern podcast. This episode was hosted by Aryn Honaker, Jezel Martinez, Valentina Parra, and Dallas Thurman. Edited by Dallas Thurman. Cover art by Olivia Abeyta. Follow North by Northwestern: Instagram – @northbynorthwestern X – @nbn_tweets Tik Tok – @northbynorthwestern

Welcome to DiscountEDU, a podcast all about the first-generation lower-income (FGLI) student experience at Northwestern University. Join hosts Dallas Thurman, Jezel Martinez, Aryn Honaker, and Valentina Parra for their first episode as they dive into their transition from high school to a Big 10 university. A North by Northwestern podcast. This episode was hosted by Aryn Honaker, Jezel Martinez, Valentina Parra, and Dallas Thurman. Edited by Dallas Thurman. Cover art by Olivia Abeyta. Follow North by Northwestern: Instagram – @northbynorthwestern X – @nbn_tweets Tik Tok – @northbynorthwestern

Episode Notes ** ["Maintain(Makaih.com)," by Makaih Beats, CC BY-NC-ND 4.0]** ["Maintain(Makaih.com)," by Makaih Beats, CC BY-NC-ND 4.0] L: Hi, I'm Lami Zhang. V: This is Victoria Benefield. L: And welcome to Subtitled, a podcast where two fake film students take a look at popular TV shows and movies. Although I am no longer a film student, I have dropped my minor, and I am picking up art history.  V: Whoo! Exciting!  L: Yeah, which is a possibly even more pretentious minor than Film and Media Studies. V: I don't know. I feel like based on the length of the title of it, Film and Media Studies is really obnoxious. Like I feel embarrassed when I introduce myself with a Film and Media studies minor. Sometimes I have to shorten it to film studies to sound slightly less ridiculous. L: Alright, so today we're going to talk about our 2020 favorites and least favorites for TV shows and movies. Because we have a lot of opinions on things like this. V: Oh yes. And all things. I think we have opinions on a lot of things.  L: That's true. That's true. So Victoria, give me your top three movies for 2020. V: Okay, top three movies of 2020. Shirley directed by Josephine Decker, available on Hulu. Please watch it. It's excellent. Borat Subsequent Moviefilm, which is – I don't even need to explain this one. An excellent movie. And then Emma. Those are my top three. What about you Lami? What were your top three films of 2020? L: Definitely Emma, ‘cause I’m a huge slut for Jane Austen. Obviously. The King of Staten Island because Pete Davidson is my man. And I have written down Portrait of a Lady on Fire, although I did not really enjoy that movie. I guess I just haven't seen a lot of movies in 2020. V: Yeah, I feel that. I don't think there were a lot of good ones that came out, like I struggled to make this list. Or maybe I just didn't watch the good ones. That’s also a possibility. L: I think you would really like The King of Staten Island because you also like Pete Davidson. V: Oh, yeah. A huge fan of Pete Davidson, which apparently is controversial. L: TV show wise, I really liked Bridgerton obviously. Simon's pullout game is strong. The Queen's Gambit, although I know nothing about chess. And Emily in Paris. V: Did you really put that at number three? L: That was not number three. Okay. I'm not even going down a list right now. Um, number three, let's see. Possibly Sex Education, season two. Wait, no, no, no, V: Wait, that was in 2020? L: That was in 2020. V: So good. L: But maybe that didn't make my list. Big Mouth season three, two… three? The newest season. [Note: Lami is referring to Season 4.] Really, really good. Highly recommend. V: My TV choices. I only have two, but I would put Bridgerton on here as well. Shamefully, but so good. I love Gossip Girl, and I love Jane Austen, and it really just felt like the best possible combination. So, top two TV shows for me were How to Sell Drugs Online (Fast). Season two came out this year. This is a German show. Everyone needs to watch it. It's about two really nerdy high school boys that end up starting a drug business online, somehow. It's so complicated, but it's so good, and there's a lot involved, 3D printed guns … there's  a lot of drama. It's so good. And then my other favorite was Ramy season two. So good. It has to be in my top five TV shows of all time. I think it's incredible, like the portrayal of the conflict between religion and culture and like American culture versus his culture from home. It's incredible. L: Remind me what Ramy is about again? I've heard you talk about this.  V: Way too many times. Yeah. So, it's basically about this Muslim … man. I almost called him a boy. He's definitely a man, a fully grown man. But a Muslim man growing up in the U.S. and about just his relationship with his culture and his heritage, him reckoning with his religion versus American culture. And as someone who is religious, I think it's really interesting, like the tug between those two sides of yourself. So yeah, I love it. And it's also funny somehow. Despite all that, it's somehow comedic. But, yeah. And then I have podcasts next here. What were your favorite podcasts of the year? L: Definitely the one I listened to the most is probably Anything Goes with Emma Chamberlain. Just because it's really light. I do listen to news podcasts, occasionally, but sometimes you just need some valley girl talk. You know. V: I love her. She's so relatable. L:  And also Life Kit by NPR. They tell you how to do shit. I just need that in my life.  V: We all need to know how to do more shit. L: How about you? V: So, my favorites. I'm gonna say The Daily by the New York Times just because I listen to it every day, so I can't not include it. L: Michael!  V: I love Michael. L: Remember when we saw him on Zoom during that Medill talk?  V: Truly changed my life. L: The highlight of my Fall Quarter. V: I think I cried a little bit, or a lot. He's a very important male figure in my life. It’s fine, anyways, moving on. My other top favorites were Canary by the Washington Post, I believe. Don't quote me on that. [Note: Canary is in fact published by the Washington Post.] But it was a limited series about just a couple of sexual assault cases from the past few years. Highly recommend. So good. Really interesting storytelling, and I think the reporter did a really good job balancing like the sensitive nature of the case. And then my next favorite is @lexie. I love her. I love her personality. She makes me happy listening to her. It's like Emma Chamberlain, it's light, she's funny.  L: She's not that relatable though. This girl highkey went like “I never get stressed.” And then I stopped listening to her. V: It's attainable though. I'm trying to reach that level. L: Is it attainable though? I think … I think she's lying. She's definitely been stressed before. V: That's fair. I think it was a little bit of exaggeration on her part, but she's fun. She lives in New York City. She has a great life. She does YouTube for a living.  L: I love that our – the people we look up to are YouTubers. V: Who are basically younger than me. Emma Chamberlain is younger than us. I think she's 19, still. L:  I just really like Emma's podcast because she literally will hop on the mic and be like, “I had a shit day and I cried for three hours.” I was like “same. “ V: My favorite part is when she doesn't talk for three minutes and it's just her cats meowing and she’s like “Can you hear that? Can you hear that?” Please, I just want a cat.  L: I think we need that in our podcast. I was gonna talk about stand up.  V: Yeah, definitely. L: Because we definitely need some laughter in 2020 and 2021. I saw Taylor Tomlinson's Netflix special [Taylor Tomlinson:] Quarter-Life Crisis. The beginning of the year. I thought it was so good. Death to 2020 came out in 2020. V:  No, it didn't. Did it come out the last day of the year?  L: Probably. I don't know. I'm gonna count it as a 2020 film. [Note: Death to 2020 was released on Dec. 27th, 2020.] That one was funny. Very dark humor.  V: I couldn’t get through five minutes of it. Not gonna lie. I don't know … something about it. It's confusing. L: It's not confusing. It's so funny. V: Yeah, I think I thought it was real for like two seconds. And then after that I was disappointed. I wanted a real documentary. L: We're living through it. We don't need a real fucking documentary. V: That’s true. I think it was because they made fun of the New Yorker. Or was it the New York Times? L: They did?  V: Yeah. They were like mocking one of them. I can't remember which one.[Note: She means The New Yorker] L: That’s really funny. V: It hurt me. Oh, we can talk about documentaries. Yours is Miss Americana? L: This is so sad. Yes, mine is Miss Americana. Taylor Swift. Huge fan. Not the greatest documentary. But it has Taylor Swift in it, so I watched it. V: My favorite documentary of this year has to be Dick Johnson Is Dead. L: I loved that documentary. It’s so good. V: I think I cried for all of it, maybe? Possibly all of it. L: I think we need to rewatch it. V: Yeah. Do I need to cry again, though? Should we explain what it is?  L: We should. V: For the audience. L:  At least a little bit of it. Might be a little confusing.Who is Dick Johnson? Why is he dead? V: Exactly. Okay. So Kirsten Johnson made this movie. Basically, it's coming to terms with the fact that her dad is going to die, which sounds really sad. And it was, but she did it with almost a humorous take in that she had these scenes where her still-living father would go through a reenactment of how he could potentially die. So it'd be anything from like, getting hit by a car to having an air conditioning unit fall on his head, all of this crazy stuff. And she would direct and film these scenes. But yeah, it's just like, a really beautiful film. And it will be I think, for her once – I can't spoil it – but I think it's a really good remembrance of her dad. And it's also a beautiful piece of art. L: I think those are my favorite types of documentaries. Like when the documentarian kind of has a more self-reflective topic, rather than like trying to tackle a bigger issue. Yeah, I don't know. I just think those are really personal. And more pieces of art than journalism.  V: Yeah, I agree. I think especially because the audience is seeing something through the lens of the documentarian. And so, anytime they're trying to tackle a really big topic that's not through a personal viewpoint, it can be dangerous and they can end up saying things that aren't true. Or they can end up jumping to conclusions, but I think sticking to your own story not only makes it more authentic, but it's also a lot more powerful. This has to be one of the most powerful documentaries I've ever watched.  L: Ooh, what is the worst movie or TV show you've seen in 2020? V: Okay, so originally, I had the second To All The Boys movie, which is horrible. We watched that on Valentine's Day, didn't we? Which is revealing our very single status.  L: That’s true.  V:  It's fine, whatever. Moving on. But I think after some very, very deep reflection, I have decided that the worst movie I saw this year has to be Kissing Booth 2. L: You saw that movie? Why did you see it?  V: I don’t want to talk about it. Did I watch the entire two-and-a-half hours? Yes. L: That's like self destructive. Why would you see that? V: I loved it though. Not gonna lie, I loved it.  L: What? I hated the first Kissing Booth movie. V: Yes, me too. No, no, I didn't hate it. L: It was so shit. I'm sorry. V: They're not good movies. They're not good movies. I enjoy watching them. I do think they are objectively horrible films. Really, no one should watch them. But I did watch it. I will say it was the worst movie of this year. L:  I think mine rivals yours, maybe. 365 Days. It's basically – you know how some movies are basically porn with a plot?  V: Bridgerton. L: This one's just flat out porn with 50% of a plot that doesn't fucking make sense. V: Isn’t that just actual porn at that point? L: Basically, it's an extended version of porn, basically, luxury porn. Do not search that up. Because I did, it does not mean what you think it means. Actually, it means exactly what you think it means. But 365 days, it's just about this mafia dude who kidnaps this lady. And then he's like, “I'll give you a year, 365 days, to fall in love with me. And if you don't, I'll set you free.” But then it was just a terrible representation of sex on screen. No consent, zero consent. And then halfway, she just falls in love with him. No fucking explanation why.  V: What the fuck.  L: They have more sex. That was it. V: I'm so disturbed. L: Do not watch it. Or watch it if that's what you're looking for, you know? V: I really hope it's not what you're looking for. L: Hey, no judgment here.  V: A little bit of judgment.  L: A little bit.   V: See I’m a real film student. I’m allowed to pass judgment.  L: 2020 was a hard year for everybody. So maybe luxury porn is what you need? Who knows? V: And on that note, I'm Victoria Benefield.  L: And I'm Lami Zhang  V: And this has been Subtitled. Thanks for listening.  This podcast is powered by Pinecast.

Episode Notes Trigger warning for mentions of sexual violence from 5:15 through 5:50. Spoiler alert for everything beyond 11:50. Beck Dengler  This is going to be NBN’s Bridgerton Roundtable. We're going to talk about this just crazy show that tries to do a million things at once. It was adapted based on a novel series by Julia Quinn, which is actually an eight book series. So there could be a lot of Bridgerton in our future. The show has been very hyped, at least a lot of people are watching it. So I guess the first question to begin with is does Bridgerton deserve the hype? And what are your thoughts on the show?   Isha I mean, I liked it. I think it kind of did deserve the hype. I feel like a lot of the drama lately have been teen dramas, and not period pieces-ish. So I feel like it's kind of new. It has its own flavor. And I think Shonda Rhimes is the producer, and I mean I like all of her other shows. She brings in a lot of the elements that I like about the other shows into Bridgerton. And so I think that the hype is deserved.   Elizabeth Since Downton Abbey, we haven't seen as popular of a period drama, as far as I know. So it's kind of been like that next modern twist on Downton Abbey. Although I do think that the first couple episodes were a little slow,  eventually, as we got more in tune and more insight into the characters, I think it did eventually live up to the hype.   Tanisha  The costumes are great and I feel like a lot of people watch period pieces for the aesthetic. And I get that. I get that completely, but I don't think plot wise it was as invigorating as Downton Abbey or anything that you might expect from a period piece. I feel like in any show, you need to have someone you're really rooting for. And I just didn't see that here. I personally didn't care much for Daphne at all. She didn't really know what she wanted. She just wanted to get married. And I'm not saying that that's not cool, but beyond that, she didn't have a personality. Her personality was that she didn't like Simon from the get-go, unlike everyone else, so that makes her quirky and unique, and so she should be the protagonist. Een the other characters like Eloise, who I think is very, very, very, very, gay, as much as I love her, her only personality was, I hate everything that Daphne does, and I want to be the opposite of her. And everyone else is just kind of like, "nice."   Isha   With Eloise, her thing was very "not like the other girls," which makes a little bit of sense because she did not like what a lot of the other girls were into. She wants her to get her education or whatever. But it felt like she did not express that the right way. It felt like she was taking her anger out, that should have maybe been on society in general, on Daphne. With what you said about Daphne, my biggest issue with her is she would constantly complain that the men in her life didn't trust her to make decisions and stuff, which is great cause like hashtag feminism, you know. But every time she had the opportunity to make a decision for herself she kind of messed that up.   Beck Dengler   My opinion on the show was ehh somewhat fun to watch, but I did not like the characters. It was trying to do so many things. It was really trying to establish this whole world, a cinematic world with all the different characters having their own storylines. We go to their gambling place. They've got a boxing ring. We go to their orgy house, like we’re really going all over the place with tons of these different characters. I don't even know their names. And then they’re held on by this ultimate romance with Daphne. Her motivations change slightly, but she just tries to get the Duke to impregnate her I guess. I guess that's the vibe.   Tanisha   When I was watching the show, I kept forgetting that it was called Bridgerton because I was so confused by why it was called that. I really thought it should have been called Lady Whistledown. The only people we even like know about in the Bridgerton household is Daphne and her brother and even Eloise all she does is like go sit outside, smoke, be gay. And I don't know if that's much about her, you know? Isha   In the show's defense, I think they're confirmed to be renewed for seven seasons, or maybe it's not confirmed.  Beck Dengler   Seven?   Elizabeth   Wow. Is it like one for each sibling?   Isha   Yeah, A through H. Each season revolves around one of the characters. So the next season is supposed to be about Anthony. One of the show's flaws was the fact that there were so many characters. And, obviously, they're doing that to set up for future seasons and the longevity of the show. But it did come at a price where you feel like you don't really know a lot of the characters. I don't know if we can blame not liking the characters on that, because some of them just have undesirable qualities.    Elizabeth   If anything instead of focusing on so many different of the characters or so many of the different siblings, maybe you have a second sibling that's upcoming in the next season be the second focus because you don't really know the characters after this season as well as I guess the producers or writers were shooting for. At this point, I don't know which sibling, maybe outside of Eloise and her kind of development in society, like which one I would be intrigued to see a whole season on. Obviously, I'm gonna watch it because I've watched the first one and I just kind of see how it goes. But I don't think there's specifically one I'm particularly excited for.  Beck Dengler  So if each one is gonna correspond to a different sibling, does that mean the two young kids they're gonna get their own seasons, like the little boy?   Elizabeth   See, I don't know the little boy's name. I know there’s like a Hyacinth in there, but I don't know the little boy's name. So like, I just don't understand. CW: Mentions of sexual assault (please skip to 5:50 if you wish to avoid this subject)  Tanisha   Something that made me uncomfortable was that whole scene, which was obviously a rape scene, but it isn't characterized as such. I think the showrunners somewhere have talked about that as like a moment of Daphne being empowered, which is really uncomfortable. It was obviously not consensual. Isha   Yeah, I'm definitely not comfortable with the showrunners or whoever framing that as empowerment. That's just sexual assault. I don't know if it should be framed as something positive, like empowerment. Yeah, I don't like that at all. Beck Dengler   What do you then think of the main romance for this season, Daphne and the Duke? Do we have many opinions? Because their relationship fell into a lot of romance cliches. The young virgin who's so naive, then he needs to teach her literally everything. He's like, “masturbate, try it out.” What were your thoughts? I mean, they're both very attractive actors, and I liked looking at them. Period.   Isha   They're both attractive. But I did sometimes feel uncomfortable because Daphne looks like a 13 or 14 year old, and he looks much older. But I think the actress is like 25.   Tanisha  I thought she looked age appropriate as did he. I know the books probably set this up, but when you're adapting something, especially way after the books were published, you do have that freedom to make it more time appropriate. They didn't need to infantilize her so much and at the same time make her this "I'm capable of making my own decisions, back off” person. But at the same time, I feel like she was very, very fickle. Every single time that she brought up “you have so much because you're a man and I have nothing because I'm a woman” it just made me cringe so badly. Especially because they set it up to be a world where racism did exist at some point. I'm pretty sure she said this to Simon as well, and for her to say that to him “you have no idea what oppression means because I’m a woman, OK?” It was just weird. She was just extremely childlike and not at the same time. You know those 12-year-olds who really want to go to the mall by themselves? Like that.   Beck Dengler   That's gonna be an outdated reference. Like, right now, already.   Tanisha   Okay. Well, I am old then, I guess.   Isha   Part of it is she is young, right? She's supposed to be like 15 I think. So she is still a teenager. But society dictates that it's time for her to go through her whole marriage season. So that caused her to have to grow up in some ways, but she's still a 15 year old. So I think maybe that's what the discrepancy is.   Elizabeth   The romantic development overall for me was very hard, was very subtle, or maybe hard to pick up on. Obviously, like you mentioned, it's 1813, so the way that romance is developed, or how they court is a lot different. So it's a lot of them taking walks together, just talking or dancing. But beyond that, it was like, hard – I just remember them dancing and then talking and they enjoy each other's company, obviously. And then I remember this one episode where they're at the queen and he's like, “I burn for her” or something, or they tell each other that or something. I think that just that stark contrast between their interactions, and then that whole scene was jarring for me because just them looking at each other across the ballroom or like taking walks. I was like, “I didn't see this coming as strongly as it did.”   Beck Dengler   One of the issues I saw with their relationship, which is kind of fun in a TV sort of way, but the way that all their fights early on, seem to, and later on, pretty much just end with them having sex.   Isha   I feel like that's just kind of representative of the whole relationship. I feel like communication was obviously a huge issue for them. He did not tell her about his whole vow to not have kids thing. I feel like a lot of instances Daphne did not feel comfortable enough to say what she wanted to say because maybe her lack of experience, maybe she's younger, things like that. And then he obviously has his own life, and he's used to being a lone wolf. So maybe that kind of fueled his lack of communication skills. But I think that the sex was a byproduct of that.   Elizabeth   Honestly, it's just another one of those cliches that you see in a lot of romantic shows or movies. The communication is not always there, but the physical aspect is always there.   Beck Dengler   If there's going to be seven more seasons of this show about the children. From this first season, what characters, what things are we interested in seeing or what would bring us back to the show?   Elizabeth   I think earlier I mentioned I wanted to see Eloise and kind of her development as she grows older and kind of see if her mindset changes or how she stands in society. But also I'd be curious to see Colin and Penelope’s relationship, if there is eventually something there, especially now that we know – not to put any spoilers – of Penelope’s other activities.  Tanisha   The only thing that would bring me back to the show is if Penelope and Eloise got together. That’s the only thing that will bring me back because I think that Eloise is obviously not just like‒ She's obviously gay. We can tell, right? You know that whole shazam with “I love Colin and I want him and  Marina to break up because he's too young and all that.” I don't think she liked Colin. She liked Marina. That's really obvious. And the only reason she thinks she likes Collin is because she was friends with Marina first. She was so invested in her relationship with this faraway soldier who didn't really exist. But then when a real guy comes to take Marina away then she was like, ah.   Isha   I think I'd be interested in Anthony or Benedict because I kind of liked Anthony as a character. I feel like that might be a hot take. And Benedict, I definitely think he's gay and I definitely thought when he went to the painter's house that they were going to make some moves. So I'd be interested to see how that would play out in this 1813 show.   Elizabeth   I agree with the Benedict take. Going back to Elouise, I think the best character comparison I have for that is Jo from “Little Women.” She is very similar in a lot of aspects and a lot of their mindset. Spoiler alert for the rest of the transcript.  Beck Dengler   I think it's interesting because the show kind of only – as far as I could remember – only had the one direct moment of homosexual relationship, which was in the brothel very much behind closed doors. But I would be interested if they actually go that direction. I have no idea where the books go, so I assume it goes where the books do. So far it has seemed very straight. Oh, I just got to get this off my chest too, though. Penelope we can spoil it right now. Penelope‒    Elizabeth   I tried so hard.   Beck Dengler   Yeah.  So this big build up to Lady Whistledown, Lady Whistledown all season – all about her, very Gossip Girl. And then right at the end, final episode we see in the carriage, Penelope. It's her – probably...probably…assumably.   Tanisha   I don’t know. I think it's really obvious.    Elizabeth  I don't know for me, it was very unexpected. And I almost didn't like how they ended it on that. Because I thought it came out of nowhere. But I'd be curious to see what were the signs you guys saw?   Isha   For me, it was as soon as she outed Marina as being pregnant when she was about to marry Collin. Then I was like, OK, it's definitely Penelope. I was mostly surprised by the fact that they revealed it was her because I thought I was kind of putting this since the same fram Gossip Girl where I was like, OK, they're gonna reveal it at the very, very end. So when they revealed her I was like, "already?," I guess I was kind of anticipating this being a long running mystery throughout the series. And I wonder if they're going to replace that mystery or dish the whole "Who is Lady Whistledown?" thing. But yeah, I feel like I kind of saw it coming.   Tanisha   There's this scene where her and Eloise are talking and Eloise is talking about how she really wants to just find out who it is. And like you can tell by like the way Penelope is behaving, that's something that she's not interested in, because she pretends that she's more interested in her problems. But she's also trying to steer the conversation away from that because she doesn't want her to find out. And then, I don’t know who says why it wouldn’t be one of the servants. It has to be someone who has access to all these private spaces, and is also someone that has the time and that people are just kind of overlooking. And so I was like, yeah, it's obviously you then! Just say it.   Beck Dengler I'm glad they didn't go the Gossip Girl route: let's just keep on building up to this moment. Because they changed who Gossip Girl was a lot of times before landing the result and it kind of whimpered out a bit. So it could be interesting to explore what it means for her.   Tanisha   The actress who plays Penelope, she's also in Derry Girls. OK, so the weird thing is that in Derry Girls, she's a lesbian. And I love that show. And she's a great character that plays a great character. I don't care enough about the show to actually root for any of the characters, so I'm just rooting for the actors. So I love her. So I'm always OK with everything that she did. I was like, go cause some damage and pop out, have some fun.   Elizabeth   One interesting thing I did like about the show that made it kind of unique was the modern music with the classical orchestra, the accompaniments to the show. I thought that was really unique. I watched the show while I was doing busy work or something, so I would just be half listening, half watching and then I would hear something that I recognize, like, "Oh, that's really cool."    Tanisha  I thought that was funny. It made me laugh a lot. Every single time it was on I was like, "this is so insane." Who pitched that? Who sat in a room with 15 other really smart writers of the show, and said that my great idea is that we put the music we use now‒  Beck Dengler   Let's use "Bad Guy" by Billie Eilish. Let's have that played on a string quartet. Let's do it.   Isha   This was the first period piece-ish thing I've watched. I thought that was interesting. And, you know, there's some flaws plot wise character development wise, but like it was entertaining. I watched it in one night. So it was, you know, a good use of my time. I stayed up until 8 am.    Elizabeth  I'm a huge fan of Downton Abbey. So when I heard something very similar yet kind of different came out, I was excited to watch it. And obviously, we've discussed it's not the same, not the same level. And there are flaws to it. But I think compared to what's been put out. Similar, I think I enjoyed this a little more. It wasn't a bad use of my time. I didn't binge it all in one night. I maybe took a week. But it was a good use of a couple hours once a day. One thing I thought this show was kind of missing was the wit or humor that I kind of found and enjoyed from Downton Abbey. I kind of wish they had that.   Beck Dengler   I think that's the way this show could improve. There were some funny moments. Like when the chick passed out from her corset in front of the Queen, like some like the, you know, little stuff like that – if they leaned into kind of the goofiness of it all.   Tanisha   In every period show, you would have someone passing out because they're wearing a corset – It’s not even original humor. Daphne laughed at everything. I hated her so much. I was like, stop laughing. What is so funny? What is so funny, explain it to me. I don’t get it. It just wasn't my show, maybe. This is something that I forgot to say. I was really thrown off by them first doing colorblind casting for the show, and then introducing things like this really half-baked racial hierarchy – they did not need to include that. I was just trying to have a good time. And it was just unnecessary. That's also part of the whole white feminism of it all. As if one marriage, even if it's a royal marriage – as if that could end racism. I mean, Harry and Meghan got married, and the U.K. is still a shithole. And so is Canada. Wherever they go it all just sucks. So I don't know. I would rather they not have mentioned that at all. They didn't need to do that, it didn't add anything to the show.    Isha   Yeah, I appreciate the attempt at diversity, but it just felt so clumsy added in that it just gave me more questions and confusion, more than anything else.   Beck Dengler  Well, it's been fun talking about this. We had some differing opinions, but I think ultimately landed on it's a fun show in some ways, but seasons two through eight could be better.   Elizabeth   Hopefully, hopefully. This podcast is powered by Pinecast.

Episode Notes Normal People: College Relationships, Mental Health, and the “Perfect” Man V: Hi, this is Victoria Benefield.  L: And I’m Lami Zhang  V: Welcome to Subtitled, a podcast where two fake film students take a look at popular movies and TV shows. Seriously, Neither of us can get into any film classes, if anyone knows how please help us.  ["Wirklich Wichtig (CB 27) ," by Checkie Brown, CC BY-NC-ND 4.0] L: This episode contains strong language, and discussions of mental health and familial abuse. V: And the overwhelming hotness of a chain-wearing Irish man.  L: Today, we're talking about Normal People. An Irish show that follows Marianne and Connell through high school and college, as they weave in and out of each other's lives. The show focuses on relationships, mental health and masculinity. V: Today we have a special guest Kevin Park, a second year vocal performance major, who's a big Normal People fan. K: What up. I love this show a lot.  L: The show starts off with a pretty toxic relationship between Marianne and Connell.  V: They both have a lot of growing to do at the beginning, because it's high school and they're both dumb and Marianne had never been in a relationship before. And then they jumped into things pretty quickly. There was a lot of that, like first love, like it's super exciting, but then they also have no idea what they're doing at all. L: Right. It's kind of a weird mixture of a physical relationship and like a really twisted, buried underneath emotional connection that neither of them kind of know how to go forward with.  K: But they get to explore feelings and thoughts that they've never had to experience before. They got to express how much they feel like through intimacy and through, you know, sex, which I think like brings up this larger topic of like how intimacy is dealt with within relationships. And also just in film and TV in general.  L: I read this article that said, that there was an accumulative 44 minutes of sex portrayed in the entire show. And I was like, this is interesting. They make the sex and intimacy seem really realistic, especially like your first time and your first love. K: There's like one part that I remember. It was just like the first ever time I've ever seen, in like popular film or TV, consent just being shown, so normally, just a part of sex and a part of like having your first time. And I thought that was very powerful, cause that's something that has been a dialogue within our Northwestern community.  V: I think a lot of times in media, film and TV specifically, there's kind of this implied consent that’s shown where like the couple, just look each other in the eyes and they just both know that now's the moment, right? And then I feel like this show really breaks that standard. L: Right? Like one of the major themes of the show is communication within a relationship.  K: It's like a mirror to us in terms of like, how we think that we are being communicative. Like Marianne asked, do you love me or something? and Connell’s, like, obviously, but she's like, who is it obvious to? You know, there's this level of miscommunication between the two of them that really mirrors to, like, are we being communicative to our partners and our relationships, whether, romantic or, you know, like a friendship or whatever. L: The first time they broke up in college was pretty memorable, when Connell goes back to his hometown and he's afraid to ask Marianne to stay at her place. I was really confused as to why they broke up, cause clearly they're so in tune with each other physically and mentally, but their failure to communicate kind of just ruins their whole relationship. K: We all know when we watched the show, like, just say it just like talk to them, just talk to them. Right. And like, we talked to our friends about relationships, whatever, it is, like, just talk to them. But none of us really, really want to do it. And I think it shows the consequence, as well. There's a sense of like realism to that. L: Another key factor of the relationship is their differing socioeconomic statuses. In the first episode, we meet Marianne who lives in this giant house and Connell's mother works for her family. And throughout the show, there's always been this underlying differing, socioeconomic factor in their relationship. And I think that really shows up in their college years when they both got scholarships, but for Connell, that was kind of a matter of survival and being able to continue college while for Marianne, it's more for a pride thing. V: You don't recognize what a big impact it can have on your relationship with someone, but it just means you have drastically different experiences from them and that your backgrounds are very different and you grew up with sort of a very different mindset. There's just the sort of instability that Connell faces that Marianne can't understand. ["Line Spacing,” by Mild Wild, CC BY 4.0] L: I have a question for you two. When was the first time you realized that Cornell had anxiety? v: For me, it was this scene where I think he was in high school still. And he runs into the bathroom, and you can tell he's having a panic attack. K: I knew that he had troubles within himself, but I didn't really know what to classify it as. The first time that I really understood, he actually went to therapy.  L:  Right. And it was his roommate who , encouraged him to go get help at college. And I think that was just a really frank portrayal of mental health in college.I haven't really seen that portrayed in any other TV show in high school or college that, Oh, you should go see a counselor.  v: Another aspect of it that they do really well in terms of mental health is showing how it is a constant and consistent struggle. It doesn't go away just when his relationship with Marianne is going well, or when he gets a scholarship, it's something that he's going to deal with. and they don't glorify it at all which is so important, especially after getting shows like, um--  L: 13 Reasons Why? V: 13 Reasons Why, yes. L: Oh, I think we can't blame Connell for having a lack of communication with Marianne, because his anxiety and his other mental health issues really play a big part into that. He was so anxious to ask her to stay at her house, which is such an insignificant thing to most other people. For Connell, like his anxiety amps it up so much that he feels like he's going to get rejected if he asks her to do such a simple thing for him. K: Also in Marianne's perspective, also like scary for her to reach out. —this whole like, series, Marianne struggles with worth, does she feel worthy enough to like, be in a relationship with Connell? L: there's a phrase she repeats throughout the whole series. "I have an unlovable quality about me," so she feels like she cannot engage in any sort of emotional relationship besides from the one she has with Connell and even in the one she has with Connell, she's always saying, I'll do it. If you want me to do it.  V: Yeah. I think her relationship with her family. I don't think I realized the extent of the abuse within the household in the first few episodes. At the end, it really crystallizes and I think they did a really good job showing how that abuse makes its way into your life in ways that you don't really understand.  ["Line Spacing,” by Mild Wild, CC BY 4.0]  L: So, Connell is a pretty complex character and that's kind of unprecedented for a male character and that he shows both this type of physical masculinity and this emotional vulnerability. K: It's something that a lot of other shows that I've watched tried, I think it's very hard to write because it's not very common either. Just in normal life, you know? I've been hearing a lot from my female friends who have watched the show: Wow, Connell was perfect. Connell’s perfect, which,  I understand. But it’s also like, is this an ideal man in the 21st century or is this just like how men feel, actually feel, like in real life? V: that's so interesting. I do think there has been a recent trend where vulnerability among men is definitely celebrated. And we see that in Connell, like he cries so many times throughout the show, Marianne rarely cries. I feel like we might get a couple moments where she cries, but you see Connell cry so much more often. And I feel like that's kind of a big thing.  K: Connell comes to a point where he understands his flaws and he’s very introspective about that. And I think that's just something that we perceive men to not talk about. But personally like living in a household now with like three other guys, it's been really eye opening in terms of having like male friends who actually like to open up and we talk about our past traumas —I realized that like, it might be feasible. It is feasible? I don’t know. It's just an ongoing conversation.  L: What you mentioned about Connell being this ideal male character, are we romanticizing this idea of mental health in men? Do men have to have a mental health problem to be emotional and communicative? V: So interesting. I think the mental health aspect explains the crying and the emotionality of him and you can like justify it. And it makes sense. So outside of the context of his depression and his anxiety, would we be like, Ooh, he's crying so much. It's weird. Why is he crying? Would we still feel the same way about him? K: I think it also might be like we perhaps romanticize people who have mental illness and we want to be there to listen to them or have this savior complex. L:  As simple as it may be, that Marianne would be Connell's savior and Connell will be Marianne savior. Connell goes to therapy to better his mental health. It's not something that Marianne alone can fix. Similar thing for Marianne's self-worth issue. She's the only one who can kind of realize that she's worth more than she thinks. Her friends and Connell can be there to support her, but ultimately it's her who has to realize that for herself. V: Yeah. I think that's a great point. I think they grow the most as people when they're not in a romantic relationship, when they're just friends. Even though they're madly in love with each other, they need that space, and they need to be physically distant from each other in order to grow as people.  L: Right. I think the show really just brings to life that cliche of maybe you're the right person for each other, but it's not the right timing.  V: Yeah. That's true. Actually, I did think like the last scene that they were like, Oh, I love you. I'm never going to love anyone else as much as I love you. I was like, okay. Yeah, sure. I mean, they've had this connection, but really it's been over what, like six, seven years of their life. They have a lot longer to go. You know, I wonder if he goes to New York, meets someone, 15 years later, Marianne is just like a footnote, she’s just like a number that he can call sometimes. You know, I wonder if their relationship really is that meaningful in the grand scheme of their lives. K:  I think that there is some sort of connection that we see. They also acknowledge how different it is. And I guess we'll never know, but in terms of just like our own personal relationships, if we think back to people that really impacted us, I don't think I'll ever forget them.  V: I think there are some people who are really impactful in your life. I have this — I’m sure Lami has heard this rant before —about my theory about love. L: Oh my god.  V: Because like they have this connection that they call love, but I think love is an action. And so I do think that they're very much infatuated with each other and that that infatuation has led to this action of loving each other. But I don’t think they will have that feeling of infatuation for that long, and I think that they will grow distant. I don't think that they will be in love for the rest of their lives. That's my opinion on it. Controversial, maybe? L: I actually completely agree with you because I think TV shows in popular culture emphasizes and exaggerates ‘the right person for each other’ trope. And how like if you're with the right person it's supposed to all be easy, like, it's not. And I think Normal People kind of shows that, in that Oh, if they don't communicate, they won't have a relationship together. But I agree with you, people can have this type of connection with a bunch of other people. And it's just about how much effort you put in.  K: I think they are soulmates, but my definition of soulmate, as, in terms of just like, it could be anyone, it could be a friend, it could be a lot of people. But it's just this deep connection with someone that you walk your life with. And it doesn't have to be a relationship where you're holding hands forever, but it's just a person that you're continuously walking your life with.  V: I always say that I believe that anyone can fall in love with anyone. And by that, I mean like, is there something about them that like their personalities and their souls that makes them intricately connected and makes them soulmates? Or is it just because they grew up together?  L: That's interesting. I think if you go through certain situations and experiences in your life with someone, it kind of really sticks with you, whether they be like romantic partners or friends. I think we can talk about it in the context of Northwestern. Right.  K: I personally think a lot of what they said and did seemed very real. Like first time having sex,, I could relate to that, you know, or like, staying up with them on Skype, and just like watching the other person fall asleep, or them breaking up, but still being friends and having that connection. I feel like a lot of those things are just personally relatable to like my life. I feel like every person no matter, like what their personality is like, can find something in the show that they deeply resonate with.  L: For me, it was more about having anxiety and being in a relationship. I think I struggle with a lot of the same issues that Connell has with Marianne in terms of communication,  I just think they did such a good job, how realistic their portrayals of panic attacks and depression and anxiety is, I don't know. That's just like, kind of blows my mind. And I think that also brings up the idea that you can be a nice person, but you can still be toxic to other people. Every person in my opinion has to actively work towards not being toxic in any sort of relationship.  K: Actively being good? Yes. L:  Let’s go. V: We have to talk about the chain, right?  L: Oh my God. K: Guys. I got a chain. L: Oh my God. Kevin, you're basically a Connell now, emotional and has a chain. Damn! K: After I bought it, I was like, did I buy this, like subconsciously in my head because I perceive Connell as a perfect man? And I thought, no, that can't be, but looking back, I most definitely did. Yeah. V: Everyone needs to wear a chain. I can't reiterate this enough. Everyone needs to be wearing a chain constantly. Just purchase one, start wearing it.  L: Is that a chain Victoria? Oh my God. V: I am wearing a chain, I just realized it! L: I'm in the same room with two Connells!  V: Thank you for listening. This has been Subtitled. I’m Victoria Benefield L: And I'm Lami Zhang. K: And I was special guest, Kevin Park.  V: Tune in next time for more fake film analysis. Thanks for listening!  ["Funky Garden," by Ketsa, CC BY-NC-ND 4.0] This podcast is powered by Pinecast.

Episode Notes LAMI: Hey, this is Lami Zhang VICTORIA: This is Victoria Benefield. LAMI: Welcome to Subtitled, a podcast where two fake film students take a look at popular movies and TV shows. Seriously, neither of us can get into any film classes. So if anyone knows how, please help us. LAMI: This episode contains strong language and discussion of the sexualization of children and sexual assault. VICTORIA: And also spoilers. VICTORIA: Today, we’re talking about Cuties, a French film released in September directed by Maiimouna Doucouré. If you somehow haven’t heard anything about this movie, I’ll sum it up for you: an 11-year-old Senegalese girl, Amy, who has just immigrated to Paris with her family, meets a group of young girls who are preparing to enter a dance competition. The film follows her friendship with the girls, their journey to the competition, and Amy’s internal conflict between her traditional Muslim roots and the liberal culture represented by her friends and social media. Sounds innocent enough, right? LAMI: Wrong. Backlash around the movie started in August, after U.S. Netflix released promotional material showing the young cast in suggestive dance poses and costumes. Critics deemed the movie “child pornography,” saying it sexualizes the 11-year-old main character and her friends. The hashtag #CancelNetflix started trending on Twitter. Disapproval came from both sides of the political spectrum, including Rep. Brian Babin, Senator Ted Cruz, and Rep. Tulsi Gabbard. a grand jury in Texas brought criminal felony charges against Netflix, indicting the streaming giant for “promotion of lewd visual material depicting a child.” VICTORIA: So, Lami, what did you think about this movie? LAMI: I heard about the controversy surrounding this film before I actually saw the movie on Netflix. To be honest, I was a little skeptical about the backlash, mostly because I don't trust a single word that comes out of Ted Cruz's mouth. But after I watched the movie, I honestly really liked it. It covers a lot of issues pertaining to growing up as a girl and learning how to be a woman in this modern age. VICTORIA: I've had friends who quite literally cancelled Netflix. And so I went into it thinking it was going to be pretty bad. And then I watched it, and I understand the concerns, but I think it was exaggerated. I thought that the film raised a lot of really important themes that you don't really hear or see portrayed in film or any other form of media very often. VICTORIA: One of the really important themes that Cuties raises is the sort of dichotomy between the two different cultures that Amy is a part of, which is her African Muslim background, and the Western culture that she finds herself in when she immigrates to Paris. Some of the ways that the director talks about this is, it's most definitely through the lens of womanhood, and how womanhood is defined in both of those cultures. LAMI: She's trying to figure out what it means to be a woman, meaning what responsibilities come with that and how she's supposed to get in touch with her sexuality. What does her sexuality mean? And her female family members don't really go into much detail about that. For me, there was a really poignant part of the movie, where she gets her period. For like every young girl, the first time you get your period is pretty memorable, right? I distinctly remember mine. Her mother later that night just said to her, you're a woman now. As validating as that may be to young Amy, I feel like there needs to be more discussion. VICTORIA: And I think it's just sort of indicative of the way that Amy's family really wasn't there for her as she's growing up and as she's discovering more about herself, and her sexuality and her womanhood, and she's also making this huge transition from living in Africa, and then moving to Paris. Like, she's going through all of these things, including getting her period. And her family is just not there to listen to her. TRANSITION MUSIC LAMI: So let’s talk about one of the more controversial parts of the movie, the laser tag scene. VICTORIA: The cuties girls sneak into a laser tag place and they get caught by two security guards who wouldn’t let them leave without paying. The girls protest, and one of the security guards grabs Angelica by the arm, and she was like, “If you don’t let us go, we’ll tell everyone that you sexually assaulted us.” And I think that was really interesting, because it shows that Angelica knows that she is an easy victim in society, and that she can use that status to her advantage. I also think it's kind of sad, that she's so aware of that, and that she knows that that is believable. LAMI: Right, and that was a really jarring moment. Her accusation didn’t end up working, so [Amy] started dancing, in a pretty provocative way. She was twerking in front of the security guards and we could clearly see this disturbing ass expression on the security guard’s face and he was very intently staring at her body. VICTORIA: And I think that was intentional, because I think the director really wanted to emphasize how wrong this was. And this is an aspect of our society that we need to be aware of, and that we need to critique and that we need to work on. LAMI: That reminds me of that other scene where they're being filmed for a music video on that bridge, and they were dancing. it's clearly filmed from the male gaze, because it's focusing on their crotch areas. And I just find that to be an interesting choice on the director's part. Because, on one hand, she's clearly saying, we should not sexualize children. Look at this fucking security guard. And on the other hand, she's showing the scene that's kind of sexualizing them in a way. VICTORIA: One of my friends who actually cancelled Netflix over this pointed this out and that like you don't make a stand against killing puppies by killing puppies, which was her way of saying that the director shouldn't have been making a stand against exploiting children by exploiting children. And I think in that scene specifically, she was really exploiting these young child actors without showing how wrong it was. I think at this point, we should mention while the director is female, the cinematographer was a male. And I think that it's really interesting to watch the movie from that perspective. And I just think that's kind of strange. And maybe a poor choice, on her part. LAMI: It definitely gives the camera a sort of voyeuristic perspective. I think another moment in the film that’s pretty hard to watch is when Amy takes a picture of her vagina and posts it on social media. The next day, all her friends were extremely angry with her for doing that. VICTORIA: One of the boys in her class, and, as she walks by him, he smacked her on the ass. And she was like, What the fuck, dude? She didn't say that. But it was essentially that. This man considered her posting her nudes as permission for him to not just sexualize her but sexually assault her basically. LAMI: Right. He feels like just because she holds ownership of her own body by posting a nude, he somehow gets the permission and access. VICTORIA: To me, that was really just like an encapsulation of what this film is about. Any time a girl, a young girl, is putting herself out there sexually on social media, men, even young boys, are taking advantage of that, sexualizing them, using their method of expressing themselves as a way and as a reason to sexualize them inappropriately. TRANSITION MUSIC VICTORIA: So like we mentioned earlier, in Texas, Netflix is being indicted for “promotion of lewd visual material depicting a child.” LAMI: In order to qualify the film as child pornography, they'll have to make a case that there's no artistic, literary, or any, like, educational value in the film itself, which I think will be a hard case to make, because obviously, the director is very passionate about her cause. And she's trying to show that oversexualization of young girls is wrong. MAIIMOUNA DOUCOURÉ: I put my heart into this film, because this is my story. I believe that cinema, and art in general, can change the world. We are able to see oppression of women in other cultures. But my question is, isn’t the objectification of a woman’s body that we often see in our Western culture, not another kind of oppression? LAMI: As we can clearly tell from this interview, she has all the right intentions for making this film. It's her story. It's her culture that she's depicting. And she also did research on girls of that age, and how they're kind of coming into their own bodies and coming into teenagehood. VICTORIA: Yeah, so I think a lot of the backlash surrounding the age, and the provocativeness of the film is coming from people who have not actually watched the movie, which is very important when you're going to judge content. They're just making assumptions, based off of what they've heard from others, and also… LAMI: Promotional material. VICTORIA: Yes, Netflix, what were you thinking? LAMI: So the advertising for the film is different here in the US versus in France, where it first premiered. So in the American advertising, there were provocative images of the girls dancing in crop tops, and very, very short shorts. VICTORIA: Yeah, and then the advertising in France and other countries just showed them holding shopping bags and running in the street. LAMI: Also, marketing is so important. It's your first impression of a film. And if your first impression of a film is, oh, my god, these young girls are being sexualized, you're going to look at the film in a completely new light, as opposed to, oh, these young girls are trying to discover their sexuality. VICTORIA: At the same time, I think we both generally agree that the casting of actual underage girls to be in these very provocative scenes shot in a very provocative way is a problem. Regardless of whether they agreed to this, I mean, the director was like, we tried to make this as safe as possible. There was, like, a counselor on set. The thing is, they’re 11. Like, at the age of 11, I wasn't capable of making the decision about whether I would be in a film where I would be dancing, where I would be shown taking nude photos. LAMI: And even if they were able to comprehend kind of the gravity of the role they're taking, they don't necessarily know what's going to happen in the future, like with all this backlash, like, I doubt any of them anticipated this. VICTORIA: This film would not even be close to as problematic if the actresses were over 18. But also, another question we have is like: how much of this critique is actually about the casting versus about the expression of young girls’ sexuality? Like, are all these Republican politicians really that concerned about the five girls in the film? Or are they more bothered by the mere idea of girls being sexual entities at all? LAMI: There really haven't been a lot of films, where shows girls at that young of an age trying to discover their sexuality, like I can’t even think of any off the top of my head, I guess, like, coming of age movies, but they’re usually in high school, they're like, 17, 18, going into college, and they're trying to finally discovering their sexuality, which I feel like is unfair, because with social media and what Amy and her friends are going through, when you're seeing portrayals of female sexuality and oversexualization of the female body at such a young age, you just unintentionally start to think about your sexuality and your own body from that age. VICTORIA: Yeah, I guess the question is it bad that girls are becoming more sexually aware younger because of social media? LAMI: Well, let's look at it from the other perspective. If you have a young boy discovering his sexuality, at the age of like, 11 to 13, we think of it as normal. There's so many depictions of that in coming of age film. VICTORIA: One that comes to mind is mid90s, which is on Amazon Prime. And in it, the main character, who is 13, is shown in his boxers with a girl who is also only in her underwear. Later, he describes their sexual encounter to his friends in, I’ll just call it explicit detail. And then further, at the time of filming, the lead actor was only 11, and the woman in the sex scene with him was 22. So where was the backlash when this came out? Why didn’t anyone cancel their Prime subscription? I think the director had every good intention in the world. But I think the problem is that, yes, while you can make a piece of art with all of these good intentions, you don't know how the result is going to be perceived by the world, and you don't know what the actual impact of your film is going to be. And I think the problem that a lot of people have with it is whether people are going to use this as, like, pedophilic material. I think she ends up unintentionally exploiting these young actresses. LAMI: If you make a film depicting a clearly very controversial and very hard topic to depict, directors and writers shouldn't have to take into account the feelings of pedophiles and rapists. Like do we not include a rape scene, just because a rapist might find it sexually rewarding? VICTORIA: I guess the problem is like when you're doing a rape scene, the person isn't getting raped. Right? It's consensual. LAMI: But she's unintentionally sexualizing, portraying these child actors in a sexual light. VICTORIA: Yeah. LAMI: Which is something they didn't ask for. VICTORIA: Yeah. I wonder, though, if the backlash to this film will scare people away from this topic. Like if the thought now of talking about young girls and their sexuality will become taboo. LAMI: But also I feel like future directors can take away a lot from this controversy and this discussion. Whether it's casting older actresses to portray a younger role, or just like framing the story in a different way. So I think it really brings up questions on how you tell these stories, because obviously these stories are very important to tell, especially surrounding issues like pedophilia, which is kind of clouded in a way. So how do you tell these stories in a way that doesn't exploit or sensationalize the issues? VICTORIA: I think that is kind of the main point to take away from not only this film, but this whole controversy. She has a good story to tell, this is an important message to talk about. LAMI: In a way it's her story. VICTORIA: And it’s also every little girl’s story in this society about the way that social media shapes who you are as a person, the way your culture shapes your concept of womanhood. But it's so marred by the controversy. LAMI: Also I think, it's hard to pinpoint what the actual impact of the film is right now, because there are so many films throughout history that were thought of as very controversial, temporarily. And then in like, a couple of years, people were like, Oh, my God, this sends such a strong message. And I think that might be the case for this film. LAMI: This episode was produced by me, Lami Zhang, and Victoria Benefield, for NBN Audio. Thanks for listening! Graphic by Lami Zhang and Victoria Benefield This podcast is powered by Pinecast.