Sleep is the most natural process that you can do other than breathing. Like breathing, we don't need technology to help us sleep. The reason many people don't sleep is because of what's between their ears – their mental stability, anguish, or stress. Do you fall asleep easily or does the slightest noise wake you up? Dr. Michael Breus, gives me a full brain dump as I try to learn everything I can about sleep in one session. He takes on taboo ideas like polyphasic sleep and the role of nutrition and the microbiome in having a good night’s rest, how melatonin, CBD, and some pharmaceutical interventions such as Zolpidem affect the sleep process, how much sleep we should have, and more. Pablos: The thing I'm trying to go after is that at least my way of seeing the world is through all these problems that we have. This is a pile of problems that are possibly growing. We also have this other pile, which is tools and technologies, and it's also growing because of what I mentioned. The job for us is to figure out how we sit in the middle and connect to those things. If we have some optimism that it's possible and we can demystify the problems so people understand what the real problems are, we can demystify the technology so they're not terrifying and complicated. People then can build that sense of optimism about how we could make the future better. That's how I think about things a lot. Not only the idea here is to give people some insight into how we think about things and our experiences. One of the things I'm curious about is that years ago, there was no such thing as a sleep doctor. Maybe there were some researchers or whatever, but it wasn't a legitimate career track. How did you end up being a sleep doctor? What does that mean? Michael: What's interesting about the field of sleep medicine in general is it's an incredibly small new field. The very first sleep lab in 1945, Walla Walla, Washington, built demand on narcolepsy. It wasn't even about sleep apnea. When you look at medicine and you think about Hippocrates. Thousands of years of innovations in medicine, we're literally at the sperm and egg stage of sleep medicine. That's where it was. I fell into it by accident. I was doing my residency. I was getting my PhD in Clinical Psychology at the University of Georgia and I was interested in Sports Psychology. I had no interest in sleep at all. I wanted to tell athletes how to get the mental game of sports and run faster into all this cool shit with psychology. I went to the University of Georgia, the top twenty programs. The best internship residency program, believe it or not, is the University of Mississippi Medical Center in Jackson, Mississippi. They had an eating disorders and athletes program that I was fascinated with. This was going to be an interesting area for me to get into and understand more about, but I couldn't get into the program. Harvard, Yale, Princeton, they all got in the program. I went to Georgia's top twenty programs, but to be fair, it wasn't Harvard. It wasn't even top seventeen. I'm sitting there, I'm looking through the application and they have like a specialty track for sleep medicine and a specialty track for neuropsychological testing. I didn't know anything about sleep medicine in Jackson. You figured out, “I can't get on a program I want, but I can at least go to Jackson.” I had an ulterior motive because when I saw this thing, I had worked my way through graduate school in the Electrophysiology department. I'm the kid who used to take the old rotary phones apart, put them back together, there would be 4 or 5 pieces on the side, and this thing would work like a gem. I took the phone apart for different reasons and did not get it back together.   I like to tinker with stuff. I like to measure stuff. I have that kind of a brain. When I saw that there was a sleep track that used those machines, I said, “I'm going to sell myself as a sleep guy. I'm goi

About two billion people that are going to move into cities by 2050 and with that growth, the demand for efficient transportation is going to increase dramatically. In an era where we’re already seeing inefficiencies in urban mobility having a massive impact on the economy, public health and environmental health, it’s hard to imagine a future of transportation that doesn’t border utter chaos. Cognizant of these projected problems, Assaf Biderman, is working on solutions that harness the power of artificial intelligence, robotics and other technologies that are already within our reach. Assaf is founder and CEO of Superpedestrian, founder of the Senseable City Lab at MIT and an awesome guy to learn from. I'll admit, I have been dubious about the rentable scooter business, but Assaf has me convinced there's an important place for these things in our cities. If you have any interest in urban mobility, this conversation is important. You're still at MIT, but you don't have to go anymore because no one goes to work anymore. The whole lab has been removed since March. I'm still on the board of the lab. I spend most of my time at Superpedestrian. Is the Senseable City Lab still going? Yes. What are you guys trying to do? Senseable started in 2003, 2004, where the goal was to say, computers are becoming part of everything. They can emit data. They can act on data. You can embed them in your environment. That allows us to completely change the way we study design and impact cities. Some people call this field of smart cities and I don’t like that. It is because there's no such thing People are smart enough, but there is a lot that you can do. You can discover new things about how people organize themselves and about how it flows through the city, energy flows, waste, the things we consume, people, and communication. A lot of that can impact how you design them and how you manage them in real-time. It's got a lot of value. It's one of the largest lab fields. I've been doing work since 2004 in partnership with cities all over the world. Those are big city partners and a lot smaller. It was funded by corporate for the most part and more will survive by long-term brands, but most of the money came from corporate where cities volunteered themselves as a subject matter and tell us about what problems they care about. Probably they want to look at together with us. We use the bigger money from corporate, all thrown together into one pot. We basically manage the deployment of dollars into research areas that we care about and the cities care about and the consortium that the management cares about. Most of the time, technology surrounds machine learning, robotics, various types of analytics. For example, when you think of the seventeen-year history or something, what are the things that stand out to you as examples of what that lab is doing so that I could understand? The impact areas that we care about are the stuff that makes cities function better or worse. We look at a lot of transportation, and probably half of those are transportation, whether it is dispatch algorithms to global taxis that we’ve been working on for many years. There's quite a bit of knowledge there that’s generated this whole micro vehicle angle, which is what Superpedestrian is spun into. How do you define micro vehicles? These are tiny vehicles that take vertical space. The key thing is you got to take much less space on the road than a car does, but the longer answer it depends on the occupants. We want to make sure that we are able to get a lot more people on the road. There are about 2 billion people that are going to move into cities by 2050. There is no way that these people are moving. Cities are already overbooked so 1.16 people in a car, which is what we do today, like Sedan don't cut it. Think of something else where the utilization is a lot higher, either a tiny vehicle for “1.16 people” or some way to decline tran

Brent Bushnell is one of the most positive people I know. He's created Two Bit Circus to reimagine how the newest developments in computing technology can shape the future of entertainment, work, education and human interaction. Brent grew up in the house that built Atari and has been a lifelong hands-on maker that brings a prototyping mindset to everything he does. Listen in to this candid and eclectic conversation and learn about the mass of possibilities that we can bring into fruition with just a little stretch of our imagination. Pablos: We’re rolling. Brent: Have you heard that term from reality shows, frankenbiting where they have a conversation for eight hours, “What do you think of Hitler? What do you think of all this stuff? What do you think of Pablos?” Later they cut those responses together and it is like, “Pablos is the worst person I've ever heard about.” I've seen for the Joe Rogan podcast people who do that to his show. They're like, “Joe Rogan wants to eradicate Jews.” They clipped together two words snippets to make it sound like that's what he said, but it's such a popular show that people probably count it as clickbait. It's almost like Machinima, people did with video games in order to be able to tell stories, but the AI side of that and the whole Deepfake thing has me excited from an entertainment perspective. I was ahead of that one because my view of the entertainment industry for the last decade or so has been that the camera would get replaced with this pile of sensors. You could have a human actor, but the point would be to capture what they do because we're going to render them anyway. We're going to render them at the point of consumption like a video game. The reason for that is you don't know when you're making the film, my native language dialect, the aspect ratio of my screen, my preference for how big the boobs are or whether it's Ferrari's or Lamborghini's and product placement. It's all going to get rendered at the point of consumption like a video game. The video game is oppression and showing the future of all entertainment and all media. It's interesting because a couple of things happened out of order. We've been making video game rendering better so that we could do real-time rendering equivalent to Pixar. We're getting pretty close to that, but then Deepfakes turbo-charged it because that gives you the ability to imagine making these high-quality renderings out of people who didn't even know. I saw somebody who's trying to make like a James Dean movie starring James Dean, “The legal parts were done with the estate of James Dean. He's going to star in a new movie.” The guy creating it won't ever leave his room and the rendering bay. You might still have a human actor because the toolkit for the guy in the room to make the virtual actor expressive is still limited. That's why we still use a human actor because they're a stand-in, but it could be your wife playing James Dean, get a real actor. They have to move and express themselves. There are certain times where the expression says that the actual mouth forming the syllabus matters less. If they were across the room, all of a sudden you could do synthetic audio and James Dean is pronouncing your names. The AI to do the synthetic audio are there. With twenty minutes of audio from you, we can make you say anything. We can make you read war and peace falsely and know the Brent Bushnell applications. That's all solved. We're not going to be aiming a camera at the actor's lips for that because we're going to render the actor in speaking whatever language the audience is watching. Get rid of the subtitles, overdubbing and stuff. I think it's better to get the audio right than their lips matching. I thought about this a long time for AR and VR. Everybody's fixated on those goggles, but the audio matters. The 360 is amazing. Some of these proximity audio games, you turn your head. I don't u

Probably whatever you were doing with your life as a kid isn't as cool as building a Dyson swarm. 12 year old Levi Hurt has already decided to devote his life to doing so. Levi is a delightful kid. It will warm your heart to hear his curiosity and excitement about these ideas. Even with my antagonistic questioning, his sense of wonder is infectious.

My friend, Dr. Melissa Selinger is a Doctor of Neuropsychopharmacology who has done actual research on using psychedelics and virtual reality for treating things like depression, anxiety, and PTSD. A huge frontier where there are all kinds of potential, and very little actual scientific research has been done here so far. It's an exciting frontier to be able to help a lot of people who we don't have any real idea how to help otherwise. I'm super thrilled about that and the potential for it. It's great to get to talk to somebody who knows what state of the art there is. Melissa knows a lot about all kinds of things that I don't know anything about. As you guys know, part of what I love to be able to do is sit down with somebody who has a lot of knowledge and experience in something that I don't know about, pick their brain, try and break it down, see if I can understand it and take you guys along for the ride so that we can all learn. Carcinogens, teratogens, exosomes, stem cells, cytokines, CRISPR, gene editing, all these are things that we talk about in this conversation. A lot of it is me trying to get her to explain in layman's terms what this stuff is and how it works. There is incredible potential here. If you were ever interested in what's possible in stem cell therapy, you're going to want to learn about exosomes and her experience with that. A couple of biotech startups had some ups and downs in that and learned a lot. I'm thrilled to be sharing our conversation with you. Enjoy this episode. Pablos: I'm going to explain what I know, which is not very much, and you could tell me if I'm full of shit. Sound good? Melissa: Yeah. Human bodies are made up of a bunch of cells, most of which are not actually human. They're like parasites and shit, and microbiome crap and other bacteria are living on your body everywhere. To the extent that there are human cells, the cells are super complex little cities inside. I've seen these microscope photos of all the shit inside of a cell, and it's a lot. It's complex. Most people like me have a vague notion that there's a cell wall, which makes it like a balloon or a bowl or something, and then on the inside is all these goodies, including DNA, RNA, and other stuff. That's the extent of anybody's general education on this stuff. There are different kinds of cells. There’re bone cells, blood cells, meat cells, and shit. There's a variety of different cells that do different things. All of them started out as stem cells which were basically blank cells. The thing got written into being whatever they're going to become. You have some of those in an embryo. Over time, as your body is growing, these cells get programmed to be different things. Muscle tissue or brain cells, and then what happens is gamma rays come from space, bombard them, and you get these cell mutations. You end up with all kinds of variations and mutations, and then everybody ends up eventually getting cancer and dying. Is that pretty much the circle of life? It's fairly accurate. There's a lot of causes of cell mutations. There’re other causes like nicotine. A lot of just manufacturing in our environments in general are heavily laden with carcinogenic compounds that was a byproduct of the industrial area. Look at California, for example. Everything is a possible carcinogen. What does carcinogen mean? It's a compound that's able to alter the cell's DNA structure in a manner that causes aberrant growth, like a malignant tumor. Essentially, the way that cells operate is they have a terminal point of senescence where they die. With cancer cells, they lose that, and they are able to live continuously. They don't die like they're supposed to. They just hang around and replicate. I know some people like that. Carcinogen means that it's some chemical that you could ingest or come in contact with that can alter the DNA in a cell. Also, teratogens, which are birth defect causing

There's this kind of pattern you can see sometimes, when you dig behind very successful projects, a lot of times there is some woman who is dead set on making it happen. And for a lot of them, she's working behind the scenes and you don't find out until you get real close, what's really going on. But occasionally you meet these women who are badass leaders that are so dogged that they're going to make something happen by force of will. And I'm always honored to get to meet them. Today we get to spend some time with Saundra Pelletier, the CEO of Evofem Biosciences. This is a super fascinating company that is dedicated to creating medical and healthcare products for women. You don't find a lot of companies focused on that, which is sad because women are the ones who drive a lot of the healthcare decisions for their entire families. So I don't understand why the market hasn't picked up on that one. I think you're going to love Saundra. She's created a product at her company called Phexxi. It is the first and only FDA approved, non-hormonal contraceptive gel for women. They can use it anytime on demand whenever they want. This is the kind of product that is really important to change the balance of power and determining who ends up procreating and when. We want that control to be in the hands of everyone, but in the past, a lot of the responsibility has landed on women and, they've been given, in some sense, relatively crude tools to do it. Most women in America at least are using a hormonal contraceptive, which has a lot of additional health side effects. As Saundra will tell you, she developed late stage breast cancer. She survived through a double mastectomy but the doctors told her the only real reason that she probably had cancer, in the first this place was being on a hormonal birth control for 20 years. Lots of stories like that, that you probably know and have heard with your own friends and family. So I think this is a very important project. This type of advancement in a technology that changes what humans can do,  when they can do it, who has the decision-making power is important. We have a lot of options here where I'm at, but when you look globally at what's happening with contraception in other countries especially in the developing world, there's a lot of social stigmas that affect what women can get away with when they're trying to find contraceptive choices. Giving them some options is paramount, not just because I would like to see population managed in a more thoughtful fashion. And hopefully create a few less humans that we don't have a plan for, but also to give them the ability to choose when the time is right, who the right partner is, what they want to do,  and not have to subject themselves to the entire weight of society's idea about what they should do with their lives. That's important, I believe for humanity as a whole. And so I'm really excited about Phexxi getting some support.  Evofem Biosciences is publicly listed. So I certainly  don't want to give anybody investment advice, but these are some folks who could really use some help. And if they can get enough support for this company, they'll be able to take Phexxi around the world and that's gonna make a big difference for a lot of people. I hope that you guys love this very soulful conversation I got to have with Saundra, and I'm thrilled to be sharing her with you. Pablos: What I'm really excited about here is that I think the things that matter in the world for humans to do is how we're gonna evolve as a species. How we are going to keep going? How are we going to make it possible for more lives to exist? And but also for those lives to thrive in some sense, right? And when you look at what has worked so far in all of human history, it's humans inventing a new technology, bringing it into the world, solving a problem at a bigger scale, and being able to advance the species. That's really how we g

One of the things I get asked the most about is questions about how to be a hacker and how to learn hacking skills. And I think there's a few people I know who really epitomized what that's all about, and we've had pretty deep journeys and in their lives and their careers about about computer hacking. We talk a lot about the mindset of hackers, which is one of the things I'm super interested in and attracted to. I find to be very helpful way of thinking about things. But you know, when we're talking about the technicalities of computer hacking, what that means, it really appeals to a certain kind of person and I think a lot of people just don't know where to start. And so I wanted to share one of the folks that I find inspiring and who I've known for a long time. I think his life and his career sort of epitomizes what a lot of folks are thinking about when they're asking about computer hacking. And so his name's Riley Eller and Riley's sort of a famous in the hacker community because he used to run the most popular party for hackers called Caesar's challenge. And we'd have this party once a year at DEF CON and only the league got in. Riley has done a great job over the years of figuring out how to get hackers partying, and get us all connecting to each other and making friends with each other. I think that's a really important and valuable thing for a community of folks who maybe having focused on social skills so much previously. And so Riley's also known for being a member of the ghetto hackers, which was the first team of hackers to win the DEF CON Capture the Flag contest three years in a row. Then they took it over and ran that contest for a few years and really up the game. This was the notorious, you know hacking contest, cause it was the first big hacking contest. It was the place where that got started. And now of course you have hacking contests all over the world, but capture the flag at Def CON is where it started. The ghetto hackers were one of the first real teams to take that on and they advanced the game and really turned it into a spectator sport at DEF CON. And it's, it's gone on and evolved since then. We talk about that a bit in this conversation. We go deep into a little bit deep into talking about a wifi mesh networking at a company called CoCo Communications where Riley worked another one of our upcoming guests on the podcast, Jeremy Bruestle who was the founder of that company. You can listen to that to learn a little more about CoCo, but a lot of those inventions and those technologies are just coming of age now. And so I think it's actually pretty relevant and interesting because mesh networking is one of these things that keeps coming up again and again, and the problems are hard and interesting. So that's a cool conversation. And then later on, we talk about Caesar's experience as a hacker growing up, how he got into it, what he's learned, what he values about it as well as his ideas for how you can become a hacker. I am really excited to share Riley with you guys. He's made a big impression on me and my life, so I hope you enjoy it. Pablos: This has been one of the conversations I've had in my mind as being important for the podcast and what I want to do. I've known you for more than twenty years. We have similar progression or timelines in our lives of getting interested in computers, hacking, and ending up in the social dynamic of the hacker community in those days. There's a lot to learn from that. What I want to do with you is talk about some of those experiences early on and how we got into it. First, let's talk a little bit about what you've been working on professionally because you spent a lot of time on the last company you were at. It was a company started by Jeremy, who was one of the founders, so it was started by hackers. I remember talking to him before he started the company about the ideas for trying to create mesh networks that were ad hoc mesh

Today we get to hang out with Adina Mangubat, a friend of mine that I know from a salsa dancing, and also hanging out with computer hackers. She's probably the youngest founder that I know. And she's been running her company for almost a decade since starting it in college at age 22 called Spiral Genetics. It could be considered probably the most advanced bioinformatics technology for population genomics. And what that means is DNA sequencing, massive populations, hundreds of thousands of people, if you can, and then correlating that data to see what can be learned about it. And it's a huge frontier there's so much that can be learned from doing this kind of work. And Adina is really at the forefront of that. And so it's a really fascinating conversation where she breaks down all that stuff: What it means, what DNA sequencing is about, the potential for bioinformatics, the potential for population genomics etc. So, this is the perfect episode for you. If you don't know anything about it, because I'm asking Adina, a lots of dumb questions, you're going to love it. She's also a super entrepreneurial and hustler which is very inspiring. Adina has built this company. She actually sold it to a large biotech company and then spun it back out on. And so she's been through a lot as an entrepreneur and we'd talk about that a bunch. And the other thing about Adina that's super interesting to me is that she's really committed to figuring out how you can create these transparent, high integrity, mission driven cultures in startups and small companies, and that's pioneering work. It is really important and difficult work. It's unproven. We don't know if it's even going to work, but it's so necessary to figure out how we make better companies. Some people have to be the ones to try that. And so we talk about that and I think there's a lot to learn at the end of this episode. Adina and I talk a little bit about adoption and parenting and I am kind of deep into that, having adopted a child and raised her to age 14, so far seemingly successfully. Adina is kind of early in that cycle. And so if you're interested in that sort of thing at the end, there's a conversation about that. I hope you guys liked this episode and get a lot out of it. Pablos: You seem to be possibly the youngest Founder/CEO that I know. I know other people who are young. You might not be the youngest now, but when you started, you were the youngest. Adina: 22? I know some people that are younger. It's not common. I know people who started younger but they did not succeed at keeping it going for very long. You started at 22 and you're still at it, which means you're tenacious. Maybe also stupid or crazy or all three. I'm curious about that. First, I want to know how that happened for you. I don’t know if the track you're on now is what you had planned. When you were a child, were your parents trying to convince you to be an entrepreneur? No, definitely not. My family had planned on helping me out with grad school if I wanted to do that. I was like, “I don't want to do that. I want to start this company instead.” My dad wrote me a tiny check and he slid it across the table. He's like, “This is going to be the hardest and most educational year of your life.” I was like, “Really?” He was like, “Yes.” My mom was supportive but worried. She would call me every couple of weeks and be like, “How's it going? Are you thinking about applying for a normal job?” After a while, she figured out this was clearly not a phase and that I was going to be okay. I gathered later that the reason why she kept on asking is because she had started a company when she was young. She ran up a CPR business, a training business, and trained a bunch of the Secret Service. Back then, she had connections and you could roll up to the White House at midnight and be like, “Can I get a tour?” They would be like, “Yes.” She'd had to go through the entire process of starti

David Edery is a buddy of mine who I think you guys are really going to love. Dave is one of the co-founders he's the CEO of Spry Fox, which is a unique game development studio here. They're  based here in Seattle, but they have people spread out. They made Alphabear, Steambirds, Triple Town, and Realm of the Mad God. These are games that all together have 50 to a hundred million people playing them worldwide. Dave is a very successful game developer making really delightful games. They're trying to make the world a happier place. You should definitely play their games on your phone. Dave used to work at Microsoft and and he wrote a book about transforming business with what can be learned from video games. The book is called Changing the Game. I think even now a lot of those lessons can be super relevant. I think of games as like the future of almost every industry. Video games are an industry where there's a lot of competitive dynamics. Unlike almost everything else, no one's paying you to play a game. If you get bored, you'll quit. And nobody wants to read a manual to play a game or take a class to play a game. So the games have to teach you how to interact with them. And there's so many things that can be done with video games. I've seen so many other industries learn from games. We also talk about the capacity of games to be used for education and learning. I'm really interested in that topic and have thought a lot about it over the years. Dave is a guy that you would want to talk to about that. He also has a really unique culture in his company that he's tried to create. As well as a really unique view of developing culture in online communities. He has a lot of experience with this. I think anybody in the game industry knows Dave by now because he's also involved in creating a community out of game developers. There's a lot to learn here and I'm hoping that you guys really enjoy this episode. Pablos: I have a zillion questions for you. This is going to be fun for me. At this point, you had a super interesting and maybe not extremely long but long career in building video game companies. Video games are the glue or something that connects a whole bunch of people to computers, computation, coding and all this stuff. People don't realize how responsible they are for scaling the interest in personal computers. That's important because it attracted a lot of people, money, investment and even things we take for granted, especially like the obvious ones like GPU's are almost entirely made possible by the demand from the video game industry. To some extent, ramping up the scale, reducing costs on hardware, all the things that exist in the CAD industry, for example, for making 3D models and designing stuff on computers, that industry can pay $10,000 or $20,000 for a workstation that's top of the line and super-fast to render models. They don't have economies of scale. They're never going to get the custom hardware they would want. They're never going to get the price down to the point where a lot of people could use it, but video games did that for everybody. The industry itself is the first entertainment-related industry that got computers connected up to real people. David: I don't think it's a coincidence that when you look at systems that are being put in place to teach kids how to program, a lot of them have a big focus on, “You can make a game this way.” Even when I was a kid, we didn't quite have video games or the ability to make them, but we had things like logos, which was like, “You can make this thing move on screen like a video game.” It’s trying to make it accessible. Now that is how kids learn. The starter drug for coding is Minecraft mods or making a game from scratch. It's an important part of the history of personal computers. You probably know better than me, but my understanding is that the scale of the video game industry is bigger than movies, TV, music and books co

One of the things I really like to be able to do is go track down some of the friends that I've made over the years who have grown up with technology and grew up with computers as kids hackers, computer programmers, people who eventually became engineers and just pick apart their experience. A lot of us had similar experiences and I think there's a lot that can be learned from that. And sometimes it's just learning that there are parallel experiences that led us into very technical careers. But but also I think it is important to look for the things that worked like what were the things in our backgrounds that got us good at something? And what is it that turned us into hackers and what is it that made us learn to think differently? And so anyway, today we have Jeremy Bornstein who is one of my all time favorite people.  I had the good fortune of meeting Jeremy training Aikido back in the nineties. We were training with with Frank Doran, who at the time, was one of the senior Aikido instructors in America. Jeremy had started a company with his brother and another friend of ours in San Francisco called Xigo. Xigo was trying to do in the year 2000, essentially artificial intelligence to trade on the stock market. And and I ended up going to work for Jeremy and though the company, unfortunately didn't work out and got shut down in the.com bubble, we still had amazing actual technology and actual customers and actual revenue, and we were doing great. We were a victim of a sock puppet attack ended up having to shut down the company. Jeremy and I became great friends there and have been friends ever since. There's not a lot of people who are as friendly as he is and with his diverse interests. And so we got to spend a couple of hours talking, I'd say about the first half of this is about our backgrounds, his background growing up with computers, how he got into it, how he learned the things he did. Jeremy had a super interesting career back at Apple in the Advanced Technology Group back in the nineties when there was really interesting things going on there and he invented some cool technology. In the last half we talk about artificial intelligence, where it came from and where it's going. Also some of Jeremy's other interests in addition to Aikido, archery, Japanese and Western style, languages like Japanese, French, Mandarin, Spanish, and Latin.  He's learned to play the shakuhachi and the didgeridoo. He's a guy who's built massively multiplayer online games, automated trading systems, cryptographic systems and a wide variety of other things. I hope you have a good time listening to two friends have a long chat. Katia Capprelli, the former Italian race car engineer also joined us for this conversation. Pablos: I've worked on projects that in and of themselves didn't have important world-changing merit. I built websites for car dealerships and bed and breakfasts in the ‘90s. These weren't important but the experience of that, and learning about those industries, the tools and all those things led to being able to do other projects. For me, I always steered toward whatever the coolest project I could find at any given moment was, and I worked on that. Jeremy: A lot of people don't even do that. On one hand, I don't understand that. I don't understand it. Why wouldn't you? You asked me what my new ideal job was. It turned out to be founding Xigo. When I started that company, I didn't care about the idea of growing an organization or managing engineers. We didn't have anyone else to do it. At the end, they didn't want to do it. I was like, “I'll do that.” It turns out it was fun and I was good at it. I had so much fun. I began to view it as instead of I had to write all this stuff myself, I could find somebody who could help me do it and then tell them about it. They would do parts of it by themselves. I could look at it and say, “That was better or whatever.” That was a revelation when I found o