In this episode, I conversed with Dr. Siwage Dharma Negara, the Senior Fellow and Co-coordinator of Indonesia Studies Programme at ISEAS Yusof Ishak Institute. We discussed how has the COVID-19 pandemic affects Indonesia-China relationships. Apart from that, we deeply talked about Belt and Road Initiatives (BRI) cooperation and how does President Jokowi and his administration deal with the straining rivalry between China and the United States.