Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy

What's the Latest on The Feeling Great App? Featuring Jason Meno and Adam Holman  Adam Holman and his loving cat! The featured photo is Jason Meno, also a cat lover! Today we focus on a number of exciting updates in the Feeling Great app, and are delighted to be joined by our esteemed colleagues, Jason Meno and Adam Holman who have recently created and launched to new V2 version of the Feeling Great chatbot, which includes greatly increased horsepower, in terms of rapid and dramatic reductions in 7 negative feelings, including feelings of depression, anxiety, guilt / shame, inadequacy, loneliness, hopelessness / discouragement, and anger. The latest data indicates reductions of more than 60% in all of these feelings within the first 90 minutes of chatbot use in most new users, and more than 70% reductions in repeat uses in the same amount of time. This is absolutely phenomenal and far surpasses my expectations 50 years ago when I first imagined and visualized this app. In addition, the new version of the app also causes fairly dramatic increases in seven positive feelings at the same time--a highly desirable feature that was lacking in most previous versions of the app. Jason and Adam also described a number of exciting, user-friendly features like two-way verbal communication with the app so you no longer have to type your dialogues (although you can if you prefer that mode.) Another new feature is long term memory, so the bot will remember you and be able to summarize your previous sessions, and more. In addition, to illustrate exactly HOW the app works, we did a live demonstration with Jason, who has been struggling with several of his negative thoughts, like "This app might not reach the hundred of millions of people around the world who need it." His belief in this thought was 80%, and the thought triggered strong feelings of hopelessness, sadness, guilt, anxiety, frustration, anger, and inadequacy.  This is a valid concern since we must rapidly boost sales if we hope to break even and stay in business, We tried a number of methods that weren't effective, following the app's philosophy of 'failing as fast as we can," including Positive Reframing and Paradoxical Magnification, that did not help at all. In fact, Positive Reframing simply triggered increased resistance. Then we tried a method that has been really helpful for Jason in the past, Externalization of Resistance, and he was able to successfully challenge all the really GOOD reasons to cling to his negative thoughts. At the end, his belief in the thought was reduced from 80% to 20%, which was satisfactory to Jason as he said that some worrying is realistic and keeps him on his toes continually adding amazing new features to the app. If you've been struggling with low self-esteem or negative feelings or low self-esteem, you might want to check the latest version of the Feeling Great app. You can take a free ride and check it out. You've got absolutely nothing to lose but a couple hours of your time, and a life of greater joy and happiness to gain. Rhonda, Jason, Adam, and I appreciate all of you, and thank you for joining us today!  

Teen Troubles? Don’t Freak Out! Featuring Dr. Taylor Chesney Today, we are thrilled to welcome Dr. Taylor Chesney to our podcast on troubled teens—what actually works! Taylor has been on a number of previous podcasts, and has been a beloved member of the TEAM community for many years! We were lucky to have her here in person as a member of our weekly TEAM CBT training group for several years until she and her husband finally returned home to New York in 2014 where she established her booming clinical practice working with kids and teens. She and her husband, Gregg, have four children of their own, ranging from 11 to 2 ½, so she brings a great deal of practical experience to complement her brilliant technical skills. Taylor will teach us how parents can deal effectively with troubled and impulsive and often smelly and irritating teens. I think you will find her message highly practical and inspiring, and perhaps the opposite of the ways you may have reacted to frustrating teenagers in the past. She says her goal is to help parents feel more confident in dealing with their teens and to teach them how to develop greater teamwork, love and understanding by integrating the Five Secrets of Effective Communication into their daily parenting toolkit. She says that “teen brains are different. They act out impulsively when angry, and can be hard to tolerate at times, or even often.” The goal is to learn to see the world through their eyes, and to become comfortable with being uncomfortable with their behavior. Remember that teens are supposed to be irritable and angry as they grow more and more independent, which is healthy. Compared to an adult brain that is more developed, has better impulse control, and “should be” able to tolerate emotions better. She thinks that parents can often do a great deal more than a shrink, especially if the parents are willing to learn how to listen and connect more effectively with their children. She says, “teen brains are changing constantly. Teens are frustrating. They are angry, disorganized, and want more than anything to spend time with their friends. They often complain, and might say that a party they went to was “lame and it sucked because the parents were there, constantly hanging around. They don’t trust us!” Don’t argue or contradict them, or try to teach them “good lessons”. Instead use Thought Empathy, Feeling Empathy, and Disarming. Summarize their words and feelings, and find truth in what they are saying. For example, you might say, “That does sound disappointing, having the parents there supervising all the time. I wouldn’t be surprised if you feel frustrated and ticked off.” You want them to talk! And they WILL talk if you listen instead of trying to fix or control them. Suppose your teen says, “My teacher sucks. I turned my homework in late, so he deducted 5 points. But I was up late helping my friend on the phone, and I forgot.” You could say, “That sounds super frustrating. I know how much you care about your friends, and would do anything to help them out. It sounds super frustrating that you got marked down on your homework. I know that school is super important to you, too.” In other words, your goal is to provide support and warmth, rather than trying to discipline or scold them. They want to please you, but if you put them down when they are complaining, that will push them away and will cast a shadow on your relationships with them. You’ll get frustrated and the tension will escalate, and you may end up shouting at them in exasperation. Then you’ll get down on yourself as well, and you may feel like a bad mom or a bad dad. Taylor points out that if we can’t model calmness at those moments of tension, then our kids won’t learn how to be calm in the midst of conflict, either. They’ll just learn to shout and argue—the very behavior that you’re modeling. Suppose you ask them to do the dishes, but 30 minutes later they still haven’t started. They got distracted. The idea is to use “Gentle Parenting,” showing some patience, warmth and understanding instead of flying off the handle. This does NOT mean giving in, but rather showing kindness when you have to remind them to do their chores. You might say, “I know you’ve got so much going on, and it can be hard to keep up with everything.” Your kids will become more and more independent as they gradually evolve from grammar school, where they are highly dependent on you, to middle school and then to high school. During this process, you gradually evolve from being highly controlling and protective to being more of an influencer and creating a loving relationship, a friendship, with your child. At the same time that you attend to changes in your “outer dialogue” with your child, it’s important to notice your “inner dialogue.” This refers to the way you talk to yourself about our child, and these messages can sometimes be huge barriers to using the Five Secrets of Effective Communication. For example, if you tell yourself that your child is “bad,” this may trigger strong feelings of anger and resentment which will make it vastly more difficult, or almost impossible, to use the Five Secrets. Taylor reminds us that “if you can’t or won’t learn to see the world through your children’s eyes, you are essentially rejecting them and their world, and you will not be able to connect with them. But many parents resist or reject this strategy for a variety of reasons. For example, you may confuse empathy with being weak, or giving with giving in. You may be afraid that if you empathize, your children will walk all over you and run wild. But in point of fact, if you yell and lose your cool, you’ve lost the battle. You simply cannot force them to go to sleep, or to eat what you want them to eat, or to do what you want them to do. And if you fight your battle at the height of the conflict, when the negative feelings are their most intense, you lower the odds of success dramatically. Give them the message of love, even at the height of the battle. It’s not about control, but connection. We demonstrated these beautiful ideas during the podcast with some role-playing and role-reversals. Taylor, your message was crystal clear, simple, powerful, and inspiring. Rhonda and I and all of our fans are indebted to you for visiting today! A big hug and thanks! Taylor, Rhonda and David

450: ASK DAVID, Featuring Dr. Matthew May "All About Anger" Is resentment ever rational or logical? Are perceptions of injustice always present when people feel angry? What’s the best way to respond to an angry criticism? The following answers were written prior to the show. Tune in for the in-depth, live discussions of these cool questions. 1. Mark asks: Is RESENTMENT ever RATIONAL? Is there any rational, logical reason to hold a grudge?  Hey David: I often have interesting thoughts at night – especially after consuming gummies or cannabis cookies before bed! Of course, it’s logical to learn from experiences and refuse to trust or give more money, time, labor, loan possessions, and so forth to someone that screwed us over.  We don’t ever want to be deceived, ripped off, etc., multiple ties, but beyond self-protective behaviors and assertiveness, is there ANY logical, rational reason to hold a grudge or maintain resentment? David’s reply: Thanks Rationality is not one of the strong cards in dealing with any form of anger. Motivational interventions are usually more effective, at least initially. That’s because when we’re angry we usually WANT to feel angry and we won’t take kindly to anyone telling us that our thoughts are WRONG! David 2. Mark asks: Are perceptions of injustice always present when people feel ANGRY? It seems to me that there is almost always some self-talk related to feeling unjustly treated – whether road rage, marital/couple conflicts, etc. I am eager to hear your thoughts/feel free to use any of this in your writings, podcast, blogs, etc. David’s reply: Yes, most if not all, feelings of anger are associated with thoughts of injustice, unfair behavior and similar kinds of thoughts. 3. Rhonda’s 5-Secrets question. In the course of a conversation that I was having with a colleague of mine (not a TEAM therapist), she told me that she felt I was criticizing her. I immediately went into a 5-Secrets frame of mind and tried to disarm her…saying, “Well you are right, I am feeling critical.”  I also used the other 5 steps except I did not offer any stroking because I was not feeling very positive toward her. She said, “Then if you are being critical of me now, you must be critical of me ALL the time.” How would you respond to that? Thank you! Rhonda David’s response We role-played this in real time, and discussed the power and challenge of genuine disarming, and illustrated it. Matt, Rhonda, and David thank you for joining us today, and hope you enjoyed the dialogue!

Stories from My Hippy Days, Part 2 Featuring David and Rhonda A year or more ago we did a Part 1 podcast on stories from my days as a Stanford Medical student in the late 1960s. This was the Hippy Era and the famous “Summer of Love.” A young man, Clyde, recently asked if we’d do Part 2, since we didn’t get to all the stories the first time around. As an aside, there are more stories, so if you like them, we’d be happy to do a Part 3 as well. 1. Husain Chung and the crazy teen from LA: When a stallion wants to run, you run with the stallion!” 2. A frightening encounter with Vic Lovell: And a mentor’s advice on how to handle it. 3. Bar next to the Free University Coffee House: Outrageous works, even with the Hell’s Angels. 4. The bearded man on the quad near the Stanford Student Union—Telling me to “sit with open hands” 5. Ken Kesey and his merry pranksters walked into the Stanford Student Union—they were dressed in pajamas or clown outfits and Neil Cassady was juggling hammers. 6. The tape recorder experiment: Bizarre week, unexpected conclusion. 7. Encounter at the Medical School: “Psychiatry and Psychotherapy—Are they Relevant or Obsolete?” Featuring Hussain Chung 8. Missing the medical school graduation ceremony: Didn’t pick up my diploma until years later. 9. Homeless in Carmel Valley: Saved by Ramadan, Subud and Bapak. Thanks for tuning in today! And keep your requests, questions, and feedback coming. Your satisfaction and happiness are our top goals! Rhonda and David

448: Ask David, featuring Adam Hollman Relationship woes--what should I do? How can animals have feelings if they can't think? How often should I fill out the Daily Mood Log? Why can't husbands express their feelings?   Today we are joined by Adam Holman, LCSW. Adam has recently left his full time clinical practice in Arizona to join our Feeling Great app team here in San Francisco. I think you’ll be delighted by his warmth and wisdom. Although he works with us full-time, he still practices one day per week and specializes in X depression, anxiety, and screen addiction(e.g. video game addiction and more.) He has appeared on two previous Feeling Good Podcasts, # X and # Y. We are delighted to have Adam as the honored guest on today’s Ask David podcast! Here are the questions for today’s Ask David. They were all written before the podcast. If you listen to the podcast, you will get much more information and perspective. The Questions Hello Dr Burns. I hope you are doing well. I participated in the webinar held on 18th of April. It was a good experience for me and I would like to thank you and your team in arranging for that. Far asks: if You have a relationship problem, but also feel inadequate. Should you use the Daily Mood Log for the internal problem of inadequacy and the Relationship Journal for the actual dialogue? Moritz points out that animals, who don’t think in words, still have intense emotional reactions, including fear and anger. For example, when a deer spots a predator, like a cayote, it feels terror and instantly runs to get away. Doesn’t this prove that terrifying events can cause feelings directly? In other words, that makes it seem like thoughts or cognitions are NOT necessary to feel emotions. What do you think? Rob asks: How often do you fill out your own daily mood journals? Do you do one every day? Would you be willing to share recent examples of your own journals with podcast listeners? Brittany asks: Why won’t my husband share his feelings? (Or, we could ask, why can’t men express their feelings?)  The Answers 1. Far asks: If you have a relationship problem, but also feel inadequate. Should you use the Daily Mood Log for the internal problem of inadequacy and the Relationship Journal for the actual dialogue? Hello Dr Burns. I hope you are doing well. I participated in the webinar held on 18th of April. It was a good experience for me, and I would like to thank you and your team for arranging it. May I ask a question? When there is a relationship problem it should be addressed by the relationship journal and interpersonal downward arrow and not by the cognitive method as far as I know. What about when there is a relationship problem together with strong feelings of depression and frustration as a result of an internal dialogue of being inadequate and defective. Should this component be addressed by the cognitive method and straightforward technique? Thanks a lot. Far Kom David’s Reply This one just came in, so we’ll answer it live.   2. Moritz: Are thoughts REALLY necessary to have emotional reactions to events? Hi David, first of all, thank you for the podcast, and in particular for answering my question about how you help people with schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, which came out a few weeks or months ago. I just finished listening to episode 430, where you stated that that negative thoughts can cause negative emotions (this part I'm totally on board with), but also hypothesized that probably only negative thoughts cause negative emotions. Did I understand that correctly? (If not, please ignore the rest of this email, it won't make any sense). I'm kinda confused about this claim. This is totally not my area of expertise, but I'm under the impression that fear is much older and more "primitive" than (at least conscious) thought, from an evolutionary point of view. It would seem unlikely that an old evolutionary feature in the brain would only be triggered from a newer feature. My other source of confusion comes from my own comparison with animals. It is my impression that basically all mammals show some kind of fear response, but we don't attribute thoughts to all of them, never mind full-blown self-reflective, conscious thoughts. So at least in the mammals with simpler brains, it seems likely that fear (and other negative emotions) could be triggered pretty directly without going through negative thoughts first, and it would also be quite surprising if we didn't all contain the same mechanisms, since we share most of our neural architecture with all mammals. Do you think these considerations are valid, and if yes, are they compatible with your approach? After listening to your podcast, my own mental model of negative emotions is something like this: stimuli can cause negative emotions directly; this happens in all mammals when the stimulus goes away, negative emotions also ebb and go away after a certain time, unless something keeps them alive in humans (and likely in at least some mammals), thoughts also can trigger emotions, and so they can disable the natural dampening of negative emotions. This mental model might explain satisfy both the evolutionary considerations, and explain the data you've gathered from the Feeling Great app. I admit I feel a bit silly writing you this, because you spend so much more mental energy on these topics, so it seems unlikely I have anything to contribute that you and your team didn't think of. So, sorry for the long rambling, and I hope you still find something interesting in it, or maybe you can clear up some of my confusion about your model. Best regards, Moritz David’s reply Thank you for your thoughtful comments. I think they are awesome, and definitely not “silly.” Here’s my take on it, for what it’s worth, and I just speculate, too. All animals, including human animals, have perceptions. When a dear spots a cayote, the "stimulus" is a perception of a dangerous predator. This "cognition" triggers the emotion. People think cognition means sentences involving words, but my understanding is quite different. The idea is that any kind of conscious perception can trigger emotions, including sudden fear or anxiety. The perception might simply be an image, which is also a type of cognition or perception, that can suddenly trigger great fear. When I see a rock climber on TV, this "picture" or “perception” stimulates a powerful physiological fear reaction. That's because I "see" the picture as being incredibly dangerous and imagine falling. Thanks, david Might use as an ask David follow up, if that's okay! Moritz replies Ok, "simple" cognition without explicit thought can be enough to trigger emotion, got it. Feel free to use that as an Ask David if you want. Regards, Moritz David’s final reply Thanks, yes, it is the perception of danger that triggers the fear. Terrific! As another example, you could argue that when the airplanes flex into the World Trade Center in New York on 9/11, everyone felt terrified, horrified, and devastated, and it was the event that caused these feelings. Doesn’t this prove that thoughts, or cognitions, are not required to have powerful feelings? It would seem like you didn’t have to put a thought in your mind to feel fearful when watching the horrifying images on TV. What do you think, Moritz? Well, here’s my answer. It is not true that everyone had the same feelings watching that horrifying scene. We all had our own unique reactions, depending on how we were thinking about it. And of course, some people felt joy, glee, and more, and did NOT have negative feelings. That’s because they thought about the event quite differently. For example, Osama Bin Lauden and his followers when watching were delighted, and like thinking, “Those Americans finally got what they deserved!” Same event—radically different emotional reactions. All of your emotions result from your thoughts. The positive and negative events of our lives do not, and cannot, affect us directly. We have to interpret the event first and give it meaning. Thanks! David   3. Rob asks: How often should you do Daily Mood Logs? Do YOU fill out your own Daily Mood Logs? Hello Rhonda and David: I hope you're both doing well. I'm a long-time listener to your podcast, and I shared an endorsement that you included in podcast episode 333 about two years ago. While listening to an episode recently, some questions occurred to me that I wanted to share with you. How often do you fill out your own daily mood journals? Do you do one every day? Would you be willing to share recent examples of your own journals with podcast listeners? I can understand how you might not want to do this and certainly respect your right to privacy, but I thought also it might be interesting for listeners to hear. I would be honored if you would share your thoughts with me when you have a moment. Rob Robinson All the replies to this excellent question will be spontaneous and live on the podcast.   4. Brittany asks: Why can’t my husband express his feelings? Hi Dr. Burns, I have a question. This is something that frequently comes up in arguments with my husband. Here is an example from yesterday: Me after finding out he was upset the night before I said: “Why did you tell me everything was fine and it’s all in my head if you were upset?” Husband: I shouldn’t have to tell you. You should be better at reading me. I feel annoyed because when I did ask him if he was upset the night before, he denied it then put the blame on me the next day that I should be able to read his mind. That doesn’t seem fair. I don’t suppose I could put that in my five secrets response though as it wouldn’t make the problem better. What do you think? I guess I should probably do the relationship journal. -Brittany David’s reply Hi Brittany, Here’s my quick assessment. Your first statement to him when he said he’d been upset sounded a bit blaming. In other words, he was trying to express his feelings openly and told you he’d actually been feeling upset. And you immediately punished him. Can you see that? In other words, you said: “Why did you tell me everything was fine and it’s all in my head if you were upset?” Can you see that when he confided that he had been feeling upset, you blamed him for not telling you the night before. He might have felt scolded, put down. What do you think about that? And could that be why he has trouble expressing his feelings? Can I use this on an Ask David, with your first name or with a fake name? And yes, you can use the Relationship Journal on situations like this! For sure! Go for it! Sorry if this sounds harsh or direct. You know, I hope, that I have tremendous regard for you! David Other ideas include: When we blame others, we are nearly always CAUSING the very problem we are complaining about. Our anger and frustration nearly always results from “Should Statements.” In other words, he “should” have expressed his feelings sooner, and better, etc. This sounds like you expect him to be some ideal husband, rather than a real husband. I sometimes also have trouble expressing my feelings, or even knowing clearly what or who I’m upset with, or why. And I always appreciate a little bit of help at figuring that out!

Perfectionism Update Featuring Adam Holman Today we are joined by Adam Holman, LCSW. Adam has recently left his full time clinical practice in Arizona to join our Feeling Great app team here in San Francisco. I think you’ll be delighted by his warmth and wisdom. Although he works with us full-time, he still practices one day per week and specializes in X depression, anxiety, and screen addiction(e.g. video game addiction and more.) He has appeared on two previous Feeling Good Podcasts, # X and # Y. We are delighted to have Adam as the honored guest on today’s Ask David podcast! Today’s questions come all the way from North Macedonia! Dear Dr. Burns, Thank you so much for your kind response. I’d be truly honored if my questions could be considered for a future episode of your Ask David podcast. Your work has been a key influence in my research on perfectionism and its cognitive-behavioral aspects. Here are a few brief questions I’m currently exploring: How has your view of perfectionism evolved since Feeling Good? What strategies have you found most effective for challenging perfectionistic thinking in therapy? Is perfectionism often rooted in a fear of not being “good enough”? How does it typically manifest in academic or professional environments? If you happen to include any of these in a future episode, I’d be grateful if you could let me know so I can tune in. Thank you again for your time and for the lasting impact of your work. Warm regards, Mitko Toshev Doctoral Student Faculty of Pedagogy University “St. Kliment Ohridski” – Bitola North Macedonia David’s Reply Yes, this will make for an excellent podcast with a refresher on perfectionism, featuring questions from Mitko and a spirited discussion with Adam, Rhonda and yours truly! We had an in depth discussion of all the latest bells and whistles in the treatment of perfectionism with TEAM CBT. This included the two very different but complementary approaches to treating depression or any of the 23 common Self-Defeating Beliefs. So, if you’ve ever struggle with the thought that you’re not good enough, or that you SHOULDN’T have made this or that mistake, this podcast will be right up your alley! Thanks, Mitko! david

446 Who am I? Medical Help that Saves Children’s Lives Featuring Dr. Rachel Sewall: “I want to shout from the mountain tops!” Today we hear from Rachel Sewell, M.D., a Stanford pediatric endocrinologist who provides medically necessary care for transgender and gender diverse young people. She shares how in a time when there is a lot of inaccurate information being spread about this vulnerable population she will continue to advocate for them by providing education and accurate information, including by being a guest on this podcast. She says:          When I was a medical student, I wasn’t initially sure what type of medical practice I would pursue.     However, I always knew I’d be an advocate for LGBTQ+ patients . As a first-year medical student, I trained and worked in the emergency room. I quickly realized, as did my mentors, that I enjoyed and was excellent at  working with children, so I  focused on pediatrics. That summer I had the chance to do research in endocrinology which is the study of all  hormones. Think of hormones as messages that travel throughout our bodies delivering important information. Hormones are responsible for so many important functions including keeping our bones healthy, helping us grow, using the energy from our food, and causing kid bodies to change into adult bodies. My work with transgender and gender diverse children and teens involves providing  evidence-based holistic  care with a skilled team of clinicians. More than anything,   my patients want to be respected, heard, and allowed to thrive. .  In providing them care,I bear witness to intense conversations, emotional highs and lows, as well as the purest examples of joy. Throughout it all, it is my privilege and pleasure to provide them gender affirming care. During this episode we reviewed definitions of gender identity vs the sex assigned to someone at birth. We review the common times when young folks share their gender identity with the people in their lives as well as what it means to be cisgender vs transgender. We discuss sexual orientation and gender identity and how these are complicated and independent aspects of everyone’s sense of self. Rachel continued, Medically necessary care for transgender and gender diverse patients is life-saving. Imagine, you know you are male but your body has a period every month. This can be profoundly distressing and results in gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria is the intense discomfort that results from your identity not aligning with your body and negatively impacts people’s everyday lives. Now imagine being told that there are safe and effective ways to avoid experiencing that distress. I have had numerous patients say that the care they receive has saved their life. When people hear gender affirming care it often leads them to think of care provided to transgender and gender diverse people but everyone deserves access to gender affirming care. Because it is simply a model of care that recognizes the importance of and validates people’s identities and experiences. Other examples of gender affirming care include being able to take a medicine to help prevent hair loss on your head or undergoing a breast reconstruction surgery after having breast tissue removed in the fight against cancer. When discussing possible ways to support a patient’s identity I tell families that there is no one size fits all. Everyone’s journey is completely unique. For some patients, having their legal documents align with their chosen name is the most important thing. For others, they alter their gender expression, aka the way they present themselves to and interact with the world around them with things like hair changes, makeup, clothes etc. to align with their identity. For some folks it is important to pursue hormone therapy. And for some they will end up pursuing surgical interventions when they are adults. I also discuss that the timing of sharing your gender identity if it does not align with your sex assigned at birth varies tremendously. But regardless of age, gender-affirming medical care  always makes a tremendous difference in  peoples’ lives! Rhonda and I are deeply grateful to Rachel for giving us this wonderfully patient and clear education in a field that was not even covered, to the best of my knowledge, when I was a medical student at Stanford. We hope your voice today, Rachel, will be heard by many, and will hep to bring greater peace, acceptance, love and understanding to our many podcast fans. Thanks! Rachel, Rhonda, and David

Secrets of Superb Interviewing-- How to Be Everyone's Number 1 Choice! Today we feature our beloved Kyle Jones, Ph.D, a clinical psychologist who suggested we might do a really cool podcast on the interviewing skills featured in Chapter 16 of my Feeling Good Handbook. Rhonda and I are absolutely delighted to welcome Kyle for his third appearance on to the Feeling Good Podcast. (Rhonda had to excuse herself after introducing this episode because she was not feeling well) In that chapter on interviewing skills, I listed the five basic principles of successfully interviewing for a job, for admissions to a school, or really almost any type of interview at all. I have to warn you that these ideas may be unfamiliar, and will definitely be quite different from what you've been taught about winning interviews. #1: Be personable and friendly. Don't try to impress the person who's interviewing you! #2 Make them sell themselves to you. #3 Be honest, but present yourself in a positive light. #4 Don't get defensive. #5 Punt when you don't know the answer to the question. To illustrate the first idea, I told a story from Dale Carnegie's book on How to Win Friends and Influence People, in which he describes his interview with a wealth and powerful man in the hopes of soliciting a donation  for the Boy Scouts of America. This was back in the era many years ago when the Scouts were still very popular. The receptionist who made the appointment warned Dale Carnegie that he would have only 15 minutes, and emphasized that her boss was 100% meticulous about time. He started exactly on time, and ended exactly on time, whether or not you were done, so he better talk fast once the interview started. When the time came, and Dale Carnegie entered the office, the receptionist again reminded him that he'd be kicked out after 15 minutes no matter what! As he walked in, Dale Carnegie spotted a trophy fish proudly displayed on the wall above the rich man's desk, and asked, if the wealthy man he'd caught it. himself, The rich man said he had caught it in lake so and so. Dale Carnegie got excited and said, "I fish there too. Where, exactly, were you fishing on the lake when you caught this fish?" The man told him where his favorite fishing hole was, and they become engrossed in a vibrant conversation about the joys of fishing. Suddenly, the office door opened, and the receptionist appeared and said the time was up. On the way out, the wealthy man said, "Oh, I forgot to ask you what the purpose of the interview was." Dale Carnegie said, "Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot to mention that I am trying to raise money to support the Boy Scouts of America." The man replied, "You'll receive a check in the mail tomorrow for a million dollars." And those were the days when that was an enormous amount of money. What's the moral of the story? Relate to the person who's interviewing you as a person, and show an interest in them, instead of pitching your talking points and trying to impress them. People usually make decisions influenced greatly by how much they like the person they are talking to. Don't try to be impressive. Aim for friendly, real and human. How do you do this? Well, let's say that you have an interview with a law firm, hoping to get hired, and you're just out of law school. I used to be the shrink for the University of Pennsylvania Law School, and at the time there were too many law school  graduates looking for too few job openings, and almost no one was hiring. They referred despondent and panicky students to me who'd had a string of rejections. At the time, the top firms had at least 50 to 100 top notch candidates for every position. Was there any hope of starting their careers? I told them to do some research on the person who was going to interview them, or on their firm. Find something interesting about them. Then, at the start of the interview you can say something like this: "I'm so excited to meet you because I've been following your work for some time. I was amazed and blown away by your strategy in the X, Y, and Z case, and I was wondering if you're still using that approach in litigation and how it's been working out? I'd love to hear more about your work, and how you came up with the approach you're using, and what you like the best about this firm." This will get them to talking about themselves. DON'T try to impress them with how great you are . That will just bore them, or turn them off, and it will certainly put you under pressure to perform. This pressure will probably make you anxious, and your  anxiety and insecurity will show. Instead, impress them with how great THEY are. They'll love you! I trained the students in this doing role-playing of imaginary job interviews. Every student I trained in this approach became the #1 choice at every firm they interviewed at! This approach is not just for law students, it's for every type of job, as well as interviews for college, graduate school, and more. Here's the underlying idea. People don't really care much about you. They care about themselves. This is true of all of us. So, use this to your advantage, and you'll suddenly be super happy and glad you were OTHER centered and not SELF centered! Does this mean you should hide your own skills and accomplishments? Of course now. You can answer questions about what you offer with humility and integrity. But that alone will rarely be enough. #2 Make them sell themselves to you. Let's say you're applying for graduate school, and it's very competitive. Again, they have 100 brilliant candidates for every position. Suppose the interview says something challenging, like "As you know, all the top candidates in the Unites States apply to us here at Harvard. Most of them were #1 in the their college classes and several have already been nominated for Nobel Prizes. Why should we be interested in you?" This, of course, is absurd, but I'm taking the worst imaginable question in an interview. Yikes! This sounds impossible, right? How in the world could you respond? Actually, it's easy. You can just say, "Gosh, I don't know if I'd be a good fit here. That's what I'm hoping to learn today. Maybe you can tell me what you're looking for in a top notch candidate. What kinds of candidates have gone on to be stars, and what types have been disappointments? Then I can give you a better answer on whether or not I might be a good fit. Although I love your company, and I'm so impressed with your own career, I wouldn't want to accept a job unless I was convinced I could really contribute to your firm." Is this realistic, or just some David fantasy? During my senior year in college, I was planning to go to graduate school in clinical psychology, since I'd majored in philosophy and psychology seemed like a way more practical career.  However, my college adviser said that medical school would be a far better choice because medications were becoming more and more important in treating mental illnesses, and only psychiatrists could prescribe drugs. I told him that I'd never had any interest in being a medical doctor, and wasn't even a premed student, so there was no way I could get into medical school. I hadn't even had a single biology class in college. He said "That won't be a problem I don't think. You've got the gift of gab, and they probably won't even notice." So, I applied to a number of medical schools and landed an interview at Stanford, and several others. My interview was with someone in the Anatomy Department which was located in the basement of the museum on campus. I went down the stairs and into a room where I met the man who was interviewing me. I said, "It's a bit dark down here. Is this where the medical students dissect their cadavers?" He said, "Absolutely. But it's actually pretty awesome down here. In fact, my laboratory his just down the hall. I said, "Oh, could I see your laboratory? I'd love to take a look and find out what kind of research you do." He seemed excited and as we walked into his lab I noticed all kinds of fancy equipment and read the name on one of them, so kind of photometer or something. I had no idea what it was, but said, "Oh, I see you have an X, Y Z photometer. (or whatever it was). Do you use this in your research?" He said, "Oh, absolutely, it's extremely important in my research." I asked him about the research he did. He excitedly started explaining it, and for the most part I had no idea what he was talking about, but kept expressing interest and asking him for more and more information. I was terrified that he'd ask me questions about my undergraduate work and my research, which of course did not exist. I'd never done any research! Just philosophy classes and such. Well, we had quite the conversation, but after a while he suddenly looked at his watch and said, "Oh, my goodness. We were only supposed to talk for 15 minutes, and we've been talking for nearly two hours. I have to rush over to the medical school quad for an important meeting I'm almost late for. Why don't we walk over in that direction together?" As we were walking out of the basement, he said, "Oh, my goodness, I forgot to ask you who you are and where you're from." I said, "Oh, I'm David Burns from Amherst College." He said, "Well, David Burns, I want you to know that you're the kind of young man we need at the Stanford Medical School.!" I said, "It's really kind of you to say that, but I'm afraid I won't be able to come to the Stanford for medical school." He said, "That's nonsense? Of course you can come! Do you think Harvard is going to make you a better offer? We'll top anything they offer." I said, "Oh no, sir, that's not it. You see, my father is a minister, and we don't have much money, and I've heard that attending medical school would cost more than one hundred thousand dollars. And he believes that borrowing money is a sin." He said, "David Burns, I'm the head of the admissions committee, and that's where I'm headed right now. And I'm going to tell them that you're the #1 choice for admission this year. And you won't have to pay a thing. We'll pay for tuition, room, board, books, expenses, everything. It won't cost you one cent to go to Sanford medical school." I said, "Oh, thank you so much! That's an offer I can't refuse!" I got my acceptance letter two days later and the rest, as they say, is history. But to spell it out. Why was I accepted to a top-flight, highly competitive program when I had absolutely NO credentials? Because I expressed an interest in him, and I was friendly, and I believe that meant a great deal to him. And I'll always be grateful for his help. My wife and I returned to Stanford almost 30 years ago, where I've served on the voluntary (unpaid) faculty at the medical school, teaching  and doing research and continuing to develop TEAM CBT. I turned out to be a terrible medical student, and dropped out for a full year on two different times because I just wasn't the "medical" type. I had very little aptitude or interest in medicine. But I did end up as a psychiatrist, and came to love medicine and healing people who were suffering, and doing research. And my voluntary work is my way of trying to repay my tremendous debt to Stanford! And I'll never forget the kind gentleman who interviewed me. Kyle and I jammed on all five examples, including many additional stories to bring these ideas to life. Kyle used this strategy when interview for his internship in psychology, and it worked like a charm. I would say that I've taught many people how to use these ideas, including family members, students, and colleagues. The impact has been nothing short of incredible. That probably sounds over the top, and I "get it." But the stories are true, and the ideas can change your life. Remember what the Buddha said, 2500 years ago: "Selling yourself sucks! So, Stop it, and do what works!" Warmly, Rhonda, Kyle, and David Contact information Kyle is a superb TEAM CBT therapist who practices virtually throughout California. Here's his contact information:  Dr. Kyle Jones

I’m angry! A Once-UndocumentedImmigrant Speaks from the Heart-- Live Work with Sunny, Part 2 Last week you heard Part 1 of the Live work with Sunny, who’s struggling with radically conflicting emotions. On the one hand, he has finally achieved his dream of an incredibly happy and fulfilling life, but he is frequently plunged into profound despair, fear, and anger because of the increasingly adverse political climate for people who are “different”—in gender identity, sexual orientation, nationality, political beliefs, skin color, and more. And he is shocked, fearful, and angered by the mean-spirited treatment so many are receiving—and which Sunny has endured throughout much of his life as well. Today, you will hear about how we set the A = agenda for our session with Sunny, along with the M = Methods we used. You can find Sunny’s goals for each negative feeling at the end of the Positive Reframing, and at the end of M = Methods, if you Click here His scores on the Empathy and Helpfulness Scales in the Evaluation of Therapy Session were perfect. Here are some of the take-home lessons from this session with Sunny. 1.  Unhealthy negative feelings result from distorted negative thoughts, like “I’ll be miserable forever.” Healthy negative feelings, in contrast, result from thoughts that are realistic and, for the most part, undistorted. Healthy negative feelings do not usually require any kind of “treatment,” but skillful empathic listening and support will nearly always be appreciated. 2.  Empathy can be very powerful, and it is absolutely necessary for a meaningful therapeutic relationship, but empathy alone is not enough to change the way someone feels. 3.  Finding compassion for someone who has harmed you, while extremely challenging, can also bring you peace. 4.  Emotions such as anger, sadness, and anxiety are important protective instincts. And one can feel these emotions and be compassionate and loving at the same time. 5.  As a therapist it can be tempting to either assume that you can’t help a patient because their feelings are “normal,” or to try to cheerlead or problem-solve for a patient to cheer them up, but the TEAM-CBT model allows us to collaborate with the patient, understand when and how they want to change, honor their resistance to change, and offer them the tools they need to change in a way that honors their values. Thank you so much for listening and joining us. Rhonda, Jill and I are deeply indebted to you, Sunny, for your courage and vulnerability last week and today, letting us into your world on such a personal level. We love you and will always be grateful to have you in our lives, both professionally and personally! Sunny, Rhonda, Jill, and David

I’m angry! A Once-UndocumentedImmigrant Speaks from the Heart-- Live Work with Sunny, Part 1 Sunny Choi is a beloved member of the TEAM community. He grew up in Hong Kong before emigrating with his family to the United States when he was 11 years old. He graduated from UCLA with a major in engineering, completed a master’s degree in Engineering Management at Stanford, and developed a successful career in high tech Silicon Valley companies. However, he left his work to pursue additional graduate training in clinical social work because he discovered that his strongest call was to help individuals who were being marginalized by American culture and suffering. He then obtained an MSW degree with a specialty in Community Mental Health from California State University. We were fortunate when Sunny discovered and joined our free Stanford TEAM CBT training group, and blossomed into an expert TEAM therapist and beloved colleague and friend. Today, Dr. Jill Levitt and I worked with Sunny because he requested a session to work on his own troubled feelings concerning the recent political developments. He emphasized that he wanted to do personal work, rather than focusing too heavily on the current political controversies and battles. You can find the Daily Mood Log (DML) that Sunny prepared just prior to his session if you click here As you can see, at the top of his DML, he described the upsetting event as tearing up when he was teaching a class and discussing a case of a transgender Mexican American man, and he began reflecting on his own memories of growing up as a gay male and undocumented immigrant. Sadness and anger were the two strongest negative feelings (rated 70 and 80, respectively on a scale from 0 to 100), although he was also moderately anxious, guilty, rejected, hopeless, and frustrated. You can also see the ten negative thoughts he recorded on his DML, and how strongly he believed each one, on a scale from 0 (not at all) to 1000 (completely.). During the session he added three more thoughts: 11.  I (shouldn’t be) living such a happy and pleasurable life when others are suffering. 70% 12.  I should be helping others more. 80% 13.  I have to figure out the correct way to be thinking and feeling. 50% At the start of the session, he said that he felt vulnerable and nervous discussing such personal feelings, memories, and thoughts. He also said that after doing much personal and professional work, he was generally happy and loving, but felt profoundly disturbed when he thought about so many people who are suffering. He said, “Many of my clients are being deported. And those who are gay are worried that they’ll lose access to their medications.” These were the kinds of thoughts that triggered his feelings of guilt. During the empathy phase, Jill mentioned that she felt honored to be talking to Sunny today and proud to be a member of a community where you can reach out when you’re suffering. She added that she felt torn, as I did, because it seemed to us that many of his negative thoughts were realistic, and not distorted, and that it makes sense to feel sad, anxious, worried, and angry. For example, his first negative thought on his DML was, “The world is much more unstable and dangerous now.” Sunny emphasized that most of the time he does feel happy, especially when involved with friends and family, and doing the things he loves. But then he gets confused and guilty, wondering if it is right to feel happy when things are looking so dark for so many people. It certainly makes sense to feel unhappy when, as Sunny said, some of his clients and friends have lost their jobs and people in the LGBTQ+ community are afraid they’ll get deported. And we’re all afraid to speak up and talk about diversity, which has become a dirty word that can get you into trouble. And when Sunny thinks about this, he feels profound sadness and compassion. But as previously noted, this has caused confusion for Sunny, and he struggles with feelings of guilt about the fact that he is truly happy so much of the time. He’s happy about his beautiful life, his marriage, and more—this, in fact, is his happiest he’s ever been. Here’s how he puts it: “I used to be undocumented. The experience and the hostility and bias I confronted traumatized me. And when I heard Trump talk about all the ‘murders and rapists’ invading our country from Mexico, I became tearful. I feel angry—they don’t think we’re human. “I want people to be more compassionate. . . . To say we’re rapists and criminals, it’s not okay. . . it’s mean, and it’s very harmful to mental health. . . . It’s like repeatedly poking at someone who is recovering from a terrible wound, and it hurts.” Jill was touched, and found Sunny’s vulnerability heart-warming, beautiful, and refreshing. Rhonda reminded us that unless we are Indigenous Native Americans, all Americans are descended from immigrants. In my own case, all my ancestors came from Sweden in the late 1800s during the potato famine. Sunny pointed out the European immigrants have not been discriminated against in the same way as the Africans, Asians, Latinos, Islamic, and dark-skinned individuals: “Let’s be open. It’s racism. I felt it right from the start.” Sunny gave us an A+ on empathy, and then we worked to set the agenda for the session. What did Sunny hope to get from the session? What did he want help with? What changes was he hoping for? He said: “Maybe my feelings are appropriate, but some may be too intense. My goal is to find peace; to have hope, and to try to do something to help. . . I want to feel proud of who I am and what I stand for. I want to try to be loving and compassionate, even to people who don’t have the same beliefs and values. . . . Although that can be incredibly challenging!” When you listen to today’s podcast, you will hear the T = Testing and E = Empathy portions of the session. Next week, you will hear the A = Paradoxical Agenda Setting and M = Methods portions along with the conclusion, including the final T = Testing to evaluate his end of session scores on the Brief Mood Survey and Evaluation of Therapy Session. Thank you for joining us. Rhonda, Jill, Sunny, and I appreciate all of you!