In this final episode, Amy talks about what she has learned doing this podcast and why she is ending the podcast now. 

Today Amy introduces us to Bailey Surtees.  It won’t be the last time you will hear about her as the work she and a team of cofounders are doing is consequential.  Her career pivot is in progress, and we’re on hand to witness as she and her work evolve.   Bailey tells us she was interested in science at an early age.  She loved biology in high school, and she loved what she had learned to that point about engineering and problem solving.  As she headed off to college from home in Oklahoma to Johns Hopkins University in Maryland, she wasn’t yet sure how her two interests would coalesce, but once she arrived, she fit in nicely as a bioengineering major.   Bailey’s career journey began in earnest during her senior year at JHU.  As an assignment in a senior design program, she and some fellow students were challenged with a problem solving project. They teamed with field clinicians and what they eventually came up with was   remarkable work they hoped would be game changing. Their project eventually led to the founding of a business, and Bailey became the lead.    Originally, the team’s goal was to study both breast cancer diagnoses and treatments for patients in low resource countries.  But they soon modified their study after they learned professionals in the field were far more concerned about treatment than about diagnosis. This was because they had no viable way to treat in the field following a diagnosis. This revelation caused the team to put their focus on finding a way to provide treatment methods that would work in field conditions. They determined they’d spend a year researching this, and by the end of that year, they had come up with their own treatment method which was unlike anything else available.    The team applied for grants to sustain their efforts post-graduation.  They wanted to work full time on the project as they’d become convinced that it had commercial potential.  They eventually were ready to move from research to development. Six years have passed and Bailey’s company, Kubanda Cryotherapy, is growing.  But what is this treatment?   It is a minimally invasive cryotherapy technique for lumps and bumps and is currently being used on pets, Bailey explains. Kubanda started in the pet therapy market to help them fast forward to human treatment.  It is a cost effective alternative to surgical resections, and right now it’s being used by veterinarians with the hope for an eventual go-ahead for human trials.   Bailey says the treatment trades a “knife for a needle”. She describes the simple procedure and emphasizes how inexpensive it is.  All that’s needed is a CO2 tank. No electricity is required.  A needle is inserted into the lump or tumor.  The needle is then chilled to -70 degrees.  This rapidly creates ice in the tissue, and those sharp ice shards quickly attack and burst the cells.  The patient experiences minimal pain and does not have to go through the traditionally long recovery period.   As they move hopefully forward to human trials, they continue to rely on grants but are now raising money through investors too. Bailey has nothing but confidence in the viability of their cryotherapy treatment, and she hopes her enthusiasm is contagious as fund raising is a part of her job now.  The founding group plans to continue expansion by reaching out to even more veterinarians around the country. She manages this task as part of what she does on a day to day basis as well.  She often fills in or helps out with the work being done by the other founders too. She describes how she loves being a jack of all trades for the business.  She says at present she’s learning about HR functions as the company takes on new hires.   Bailey gave Amy some advice and takeaways she would pass on to other entrepreneurs:   It’s more doable than you think. Don’t be intimidated Reach out to other entrepreneurs for their support. There is a powerful network of people willing to help you the same they were helped when they began. Network with people who are a step ahead of you Be patient. It takes time to reach your ultimate goal Be open to taking on unexpected roles as you might learn something new about yourself in the process.   Links:   com com/in/bailey-surtees

Today we meet Sharon Werner who will share with us the story of her fascinating career pivot from New York thespian to Senior Vice President at Home Box Office. Sharon begins her narrative as an undergrad at Bryn Mawr.  She initially thought she would study medicine, but after experiencing some related classes, she changed her major to English and turned her focus to studying the rich literature of both the Renaissance and Medieval periods.    By graduation, she had not found her career direction yet, so she took a job as a “gofer” at the Museum of Modern Art in New York City. The job paid very little, but it gave her more time to explore and think about her future.  With a great interest in theater, she signed up for a scene study class at the Herbert Berghof Studio but felt she should pursue something more conventional as well.  Thus she sent out applications to graduate schools where she hoped to continue her English literature studies.  Just as she was accepted at Princeton, she landed a plum part in a musical she had auditioned for.  The production was the Fantasticks and she was cast as The Girl (Luisa), a leading role.  This posed a career dilemma for sure, but in the end, the road less traveled led off-Broadway.   Sharon learned quickly that you need to know a thing or two about business if you’re going to live on actor’s wages.  She was young and inexperienced but learning quickly.  She left the Fantasticks role after almost 2 years, and did summer stock and small parts in other off-Broadway productions.  A series of theater gigs, and jobs like being a gift wrapper or a salesperson at B. Altman, followed.  Where was she going?   A friend suggested to her that she possessed skills that might make her a good attorney.  Sharon scoffed and thought being an attorney was “one step up from being an accountant.”  But since nothing else was coming her way, she decided she had nothing to lose by taking the LSAT. She was sure she wouldn’t do well, and she could chalk off that occupation from the list of possibilities.  Fortunately, she was very wrong and she received a high score. Still reluctant, friends encouraged her to apply to top law schools with her stellar test performance.  She again mailed out applications, while she continued to keep her theater options open.    While her applications were out to various law schools, she received a last minute call to back up a singer in a musical revue. (The actress who had the role was not feeling well, but she thought she’d still be able to go on.) And though the music didn’t match Sharon’s style or range, she took the job since the production was in a pinch, and she was available. Again, fate stepped in and she actually had to perform as the original actress could not.  Sharon did well and was hired to understudy all the female parts for the show.   Sharon intended to stay with the revue through its run, but again there were other plans afoot for her in the universe.  With only 2 weeks left for the show, Sharon received an acceptance letter from Harvard Law School. And this would not be the only acceptance letter she received.  She had come once more to a fork in the road. Should she take the route towards the more conventional law school choice or stick with the ever quixotic theater work?   She decided to give law school a try. Harvard was not offering the scholarship money she needed, so she chose to attend Columbia which proved more generous. Amazingly, she loved law school.  She found the coursework engaging and stimulating. She made law review and Law Revue!  Keeping her love of theater alive, she and some of her fellow students put together fun sketches and parodies about life at law school.  Her time at Columbia was greatly successful, and when her studies were completed, she was hired as a clerk for the Honorable James Oakes of the Second Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals.   She was in the clerkship for a year when another opportunity came her way.   Sharon was hired for a position in the entertainment department at Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison. This prestigious firm had the reputation of being the best in entertainment law in New York City. Although her friends assumed this was exactly what Sharon should do, Sharon reserved judgment as to whether this was really the right course for her.  She began tentatively but found out she was well-suited.  She truly enjoyed her work and learned a lot in the 3 years she was there.    She next moved on to a position at MTV but was there for just a year when she was recruited by HBO.  It was at HBO where the rest of her career awaited her. The work was immensely fun, challenging and gratifying, and Sharon retired from HBO recently as a Senior Vice President.  Listen to her recount the growth and changes that took place at the media giant while she was there. She describes for us what it was like to work at HBO and we catch a glimpse of some programs and stars she encountered.    Amy asks if she is happy she made the pivot from theater to law.  Sharon tells her she enjoyed both occupations, but law “is the kind of career that makes sense.”  She also discusses how she’s handling her recent retirement as after a merger, HBO offered many employees near retirement age the opportunity for a buy-out.  Sharon describes how coming to terms with a new lifestyle has unfolded, especially during the pandemic.  She says she was surprised at how the pivot from work to retirement was emotionally more difficult than she anticipated, and how the first year of retirement was a struggle.  You will enjoy hearing about Sharon’s unique career pivot.  If you’re like me, you’ll find yourself wishing you could hear some more of the fun anecdotes she surely could tell about her times as both an actress and an entertainment attorney.   Sharon offers some advice and some takeaways today in her interview: When you are just starting, if you lack confidence, listen to the advice of those who know you. They will send you in directions you might not dare to go without a push Keep an open mind to all possibilities, even those that seem unlikely You don’t have to rush with your career choice. It’s okay to have some life experience first Find joy in whatever work you are doing There are transferable skills in all types of work

Dr. Pinkey Patel grew up helping her parents run motels.  Her mother and father had come to the United States with no education and no money and were determined Pinkey would eventually go to college. Pinkey was an excellent student, especially in math and science, so although she would have to pay her own way, she was in agreement with her parents that college was in her future. As her high school class valedictorian, she was well prepared to gather scholarships to help pay her college expenses. Interested in studying some area of healthcare, she chose pharmacy to be her major. She went directly from undergraduate school to her Pharm.D degree, finishing in 6 1/2 years by 2011. As she scouted for scholarship opportunities throughout that time, Pinkey looked to the Miss America Pageant system as a scholarship source. On a second try she won a regional level pageant. In order to advance to the state competition, among other things, she was required to work with a fitness trainer. It was at this point that Pinkey was introduced to both fitness training and body building, interests that would influence and steer her career for the future. Through the pageant experience, she became very interested in muscle mechanics and physiology.  She decided that she was more than just an enthusiast, so she eventually gained certification as a personal trainer through the National Society of Sports Medicine.  She taught fitness classes during both her graduate and undergrad years, and after her marriage, she participated in a couple of body building competitions.  Her education coupled with her fitness avocation came together to form the foundation for her career pivot. In order to keep her fitness certification, Pinkey enrolled annually for continuing education classes.  She decided to put her focus on pre and post-natal fitness.  Though she had no children of her own yet, she was listening to the concerns of other women as they talked about a myriad of health and fitness problems they experienced before and after they gave birth. She began to investigate some of the fallacies that traditionally drove fitness and health care in this period of women’s lives.  Her investigation finally culminated in The Snapback, an all-inclusive and intuitive postpartum app, but it didn’t happen overnight.  Her first move in the app’s eventual creation was to launch a like-minded community in 2018.  She interacted with other women on topics of concern they brought up like bladder control, breast feeding, etc.  This community convinced her she definitely had found an audience in need of sound, factual information, and it reassured her that an app to address their many needs would be extremely useful. In this interview, you will hear her detail some of the creative features she’s developed for her app to address the vast variety of questions new mothers have. In September of 2019, she launched The Snapback in 166 countries. Her app has grown sufficiently that in April of 2021, she gave up her full time clinical pharmacy position to oversee her growing online presence. She continues to do one-on-one consulting though in order to stay close to the market she serves. Amy broaches the question of motivation. She asks Pinkey what drives her and makes her so passionate about her new work. Pinkey responds by saying that leaving her pharmacy position was the hardest thing she has ever had to do. She had focused all her early years on building that stable career and walking away from it was a big risk to take.  But she says she had seen too often unqualified people badly advising vulnerable, exhausted new mothers.  She knew she had the knowledge and tools to do better for them.  Pinkey also tells us about her continued search for funding now and how The Snapback is currently operating financially. She confesses what a big learning curve she is grappling with when it comes to business practices. She’s often engaged in on the job training.  The pandemic made it even harder to learn, but now as things open up, she’s able to take advantage of the more available resources for learning.  She points out that less than 3% of women receive venture capital funding, but she is working hard to be included in that statistic.        Takeaways:   Don’t be in a rush. Give yourself ample time to think about your options Patience is very necessary. Your big idea won’t come to fruition overnight.  Be prepared to have some failures but keep tweaking You can balance your side hustle(s) with your new venture, but know at some point if you’re successful, you’re going to have to go all in It’s important to identify and build your values into your enterprise from the beginning Build your business culture from the ground up.   Links   https://www.linkedin.com/in/pinkeypatel/   com

Meet Viola Brumskine, a woman with many talents and interests.  Viola was a curious child who had many questions about everything.  With lots of energy and even more curiosity, her parents thought steering her towards journalism was appropriate.  By the time she entered Howard University, she was settled on a major in communications with a minor in journalism and public relations.  This initial plan was modified near the end of her undergrad years however, and at graduation, she had earned her baccalaureate degree in intercultural communications with an emphasis in public relations.   During the time she was working on the communications degree, Viola enrolled in a debate class.  She found she had an affinity for debate, and when her professor noted this talent, he passed along a favorable word to the Howard mock trial coach. The coach asked her to join the team and when she did, she found most in the group were prelaw majors. Viola then began to give thought to law school too, especially since she found success with mock trial.  She had family who really encouraged her as well, but she felt obligated to complete the undergrad major in communications she had first embarked upon. So at that point, though interested in law school, she was not ready for a commitment yet.   Her first job post-graduation was with a lobbyist firm. She spent 18 months in that position during which time she gave much thought to where her career was going.  At the end of that period, she had made a final decision to go to law school and eventually enrolled at the University of Kentucky in Lexington.   Following law school, she moved home to Maryland and prepared for the bar exam.  Upon completion, she landed a clerkship with the Montgomery County Circuit Court, an impressive early career accomplishment and a solid addition to her resume.  Her heart was still with the mock trial skills she had gained though.  Thus, when the opportunity came along, Viola signed on as a litigation associate at Saul Kerpelman & Associates where she stayed for 6 years.    Midway through her time there, she became restless.  She felt something was missing from her career even though she knew she had a great job many others would envy. She continued to think about what the missing “it” might be.  Finally, she revisited a goal she had considered during her youth. She had wanted to work in some capacity for the United Nations. Now she became focused on bringing that old dream to life.   One of the partners at the litigation firm helped her out.  He had a relative who worked for the U.N. who might give her some valuable insight. What she learned was how hard it was to get a job there.  But undaunted, she applied for nearly 100 positions, none of which resulted in a job.  Still she didn’t give up.  At this point she dug in and decided to turn all her attention and focus to her U.N. goal.    A former classmate gave her a call and told her about a potential position she had learned of from friends working at the U.N.  Viola knew what she still needed was to find out the apparent secret to getting hired there.  She discovered through them that she hadn’t understood the recruitment system nor how to communicate what she really had to offer.  Learning this, she was able to fine tune her application and rework her resume, and in a few months she was offered a U.N. position in Dakar, Senegal.    Viola had recently married and had a husband to consider if and when she accepted the post.  He was supportive of her desire to work there, but she explained how being with the U.N. would mean among other things, moving frequently. There would be potentially other sacrifices too that would impact on them as a family if she followed her dream job.  They made the joint decision that Viola would try out the position and see if it was truly what she wanted. Later then they would take a more informed look before she made a firm commitment.   Viola’s U.N. employment only lasted for 18 months. She had become ill in Dakar and required medical treatment in the United States.  While being treated in the US, she reflected on the time she had spent in Dakar.  She realized that she had learned a lot from her short stint, but this had not turned out to be the missing “it” job she was searching for.  She explains she felt the U.N. position was a stepping off point for her to something greater though, and after much thought, she believed her next move might be in the area of consulting.     One of the valuable lessons she had gained from her time with the U.N. was how a business reorganization is done.  Since the U.N. was going through a huge reorganization process while she was with them, she was able to observe much about streamlining, facilitating change, evaluating processes, etc.  As she observed, she was fascinated by it all and found herself  closely evaluating every step that had been taken to restructure the vast entity. She now wanted to know more about change management.   In fall of 2019, she began exploring the available university study programs in organizational development.  She decided that an executive certificate program offered at Georgetown University in organizational consulting and change leadership might be what she was looking for.  The year-long course was designed for mid-level executives ready to pivot in their careers, and this was exactly what Viola was planning to do. So in January 2020, she began the Georgetown course and learned about the framework for successful consulting.  She was anxious to apply her own experiences, talents and competencies to that framework so she would have the confidence to find her place in the consulting field.   Since finishing her certification this past January, she has found a position as a Senior Consultant with a company called Corner Alliance in the Washington, D.C. area. She describes to Amy the work she’s doing there now and gives great advice about what she’s learned in order to make a successful pivot.  Here are some of the takeaways and advice you might find valuable to listen for in today’s podcast:   Takeaways: Viola set up daily Zoom coffee meetings and networked with many of the professionals she had been taught by, gone to school with or worked with. This extensive networking opened lots of doors She hired a career coach/consultant; (her enthusiasm for doing this is truly worth listening to) She advises not to despair if you if you don’t know your “dream job” right away, or if you think you’ve found your “dream job” but it doesn’t work out She says learning about yourself is crucial if you want to find a position you will truly want to stick with   LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/violalbmoves

  Colin Levy knew his strengths as an undergrad at Trinity College in Hartford, Connecticut.  He was only torn as to which interest he should pursue for his degree.  He chose public policy with a concentration in economics over an English major.  During his time at Trinity College, he determined he would follow his BA with a law degree, but not immediately.  He took a year off and worked for a large New York law firm as a paralegal.  There he received some first-hand legal experience and was introduced to technology as it applied to the law profession.    When that year was over, he entered Boston College Law School.  As law school began, he already knew he had no interest in being a litigator.  His focus became transactions and contract law, and he aspired to work as an in-house counsel some time in his future.  At the conclusion of his law studies, he had no job lined up, so he spent the following year exploring opportunities.    Eventually he took a position at Update Legal, a startup, in Boston.  There he did contract review and financial audits while he advanced in his knowledge of legal technology especially. He began to recognize a new interest in how computers could facilitate the work of legal professionals.  He created a contract management and review tool in the year he was employed there.   He moved on to a few brief stints as a compliance and contract attorney while he engaged his curiosity in the technology tools that were currently used in the field.  The short duration positions he took moved Colin along from contracts administrator to contract counsel.   In 2014 and 2015, he went to work with the Velcro Group.  As a contract counsel there, he was able to improve contractual systems and revise existing templates.  He maintained contractual records and assisted with corporate restructuring matters.  He often worked across departments, and he provided training to other employees. He frequently did research as well.  All in all, Colin experienced a broad spectrum of work that continued to refine his special interests, especially those involving applied technology.   After a year off for some health issues, Colin returned to law and signed on at C&W Services as a temporary contract counsel during the summer of 2016.  After this short term situation ended, he became the Manager of Contract Negotiations at Pearson Education where he was the sole in-house counsel.  He found this to be a period of great growth experience where he gained many transferable skills to carry him into the future.    In the summer of 2018, Colin moved on to be corporate counsel for Salary.com.  For the next 2 years he was the strategic advisor to both the CEO and CFO concerning cyber security.  During this time, he expanded his own brand which he had been working on for some years.  He was becoming the “go to” person in the world of tech advice for legal professionals.    In May of 2020, Colin spent some time as legal counsel for Lookout, a cyber security company.  While there, he learned even more about security technology and enjoyed a supportive team.  It was at this juncture that he really expanded his own brand.  And what is that?  Colin explains to Amy about his blog, his tweets and his all-important LinkedIn posts.  As Amy notes, he’s developed quite a following as he educates and inspires about legal technology. He has become an authority as he posts every day on a variety of legal tech topics. His interactive posts afford a great networking opportunity for all who engage with him on topics surrounding technology for legal professionals. Colin defines the subject of legal technology as a set of tools that allows attorneys to perform their work more effectively and efficiently.  It encompasses a growing movement to push the legal industry into the 21st century.   This past February, Colin became the Director of Marketing and Business Development at WordRake.  This represented a big pivot for him as he is no longer an in-house counsel.  Instead, he now spends his days immersed in the legal technology which has become his passion.  He has managed to merge his personal brand with his professional work.   At WordRake, they provide a product that is an add-on for Microsoft Word.  It’s an automated document editor, as you will hear Colin explain further.   They help legal professionals produce documents with clarity and without complicated legal jargon. With his love of both technology and writing, Colin has found his niche.  He shares with Amy and her listeners some of the lessons he’s found valuable in his career journey.  Perhaps he has some advice that will help you enhance your personal brand.   Links: LinkedIn- linkedin.com/in/colinslevy Website- colinslevy.com/     Takeaways: If you are overwhelmed with the growing amount of law technology, know you are not alone. Take on only the specific area you are involved with rather than trying to absorb all of the law tech that’s out there Learn about all the branding tools that will help you. LinkedIn is underutilized and a great place to learn and build your brand Always be consistent when you blog, tweet and post Respond and comment on other people’s posts Deliberate relationship building on LinkedIn and other professional sites is the new way to network. Learn to take advantage of these resources and use them to your best advantage

In her early school days, Jamie wanted to be a doctor.  When she headed off to her first classes at DePaul University in Chicago, she was dismayed by just how long science lab classes were, so her childhood career choice was dashed shortly thereafter. She decided to stick to the core classes until she was forced at the end of her sophomore year to declare a major.  She decided to go with business. While taking a variety of business related classes her last two undergrad years, she encountered business law. Finally, she had found a discipline that truly interested her.   Since De Paul has a community service component to its curriculum, Jamie chose to mentor group home boys who were wards of the state. She enjoyed this work and thought as she went off to law school, she would explore child advocacy law.  She enrolled at Hamline University in St. Paul, Minnesota, which offered a concentration of courses on children and the law.   Midway through law school it occurred to her that she was amassing a lot of student loan debt.  She began to think about how she would eventually repay it and she came upon an idea she thought would help her. It happened that Hamline offered a dual degree program with the nearby University of St. Thomas where she could earn an MBA to accompany her JD. When she finished these two degrees, she felt she would be better prepared to land a good first position and relieve some of her debt.   Jamie’s first job out of law school was as a business litigator.  She did this for 2 years and got her feet wet, and as she did, she was able to define her career direction further.  She felt she wanted to be an integral part of building a business and creating new systems.  She left this initial job then and hired on at US Bank where she might find more opportunity to grow.   At U.S. Bank she was brought in to support the IT department. In that role she did everything from litigation to software licensing to contract negotiations.  Each of these areas offered her more experience to help her continue to define and develop her career path.  When she had finished at US Bank, she felt better prepared to step up to the role of an in-house counsel.   Jamie’s next move was to Kroll Ontrack as a contract negotiator and then associate legal counsel.  Besides contract negotiations she did compliance and document discovery. After a 3 year stint, she moved on as counsel at St. Jude Medical where she continued to do contract law.   In 2017, she was hired as the first in-house attorney at Gitlab.This was her first remote job.  During her time there, the company enjoyed tremendous growth. They went from 150 to 1200 employees. Jamie built the legal team from just herself to 7 others.  It was exciting and a lot of work, she tells us.  She felt an integral part of the team, and this was the type of work she had been building towards.   When the pandemic hit, Jamie took a sabbatical.  During her time off, an opportunity came to join Mattermost, an open source collaboration platform for developers.  The entire company works remotely.  Jamie took the position and has found remote work affords her the flexibility she needs. With four children and her academic responsibilities at Georgetown University where she is a candidate for an Executive LLM in Securities and Financial Regulations, flexibility is essential. As the first in-house attorney at Mattermost, Jamie is busy setting up the requisite legal systems for the company. Her responsibilities often include reworking contracts, document discovery and compliance issues too.   Jamie discusses with Amy some of the work she does to promote rising people in technology fields and other areas. For example, she works as a mentor with TechStars, an incubator program with United Health Care. Recently she’s developed a list serve for attorneys who work for remote businesses, many being technology startups. (You can find the link below). The list has grown to 60 or 70 lawyers so far.   So at this stage of her ever-evolving career, she wears many hats.  She’s happy with her current work and lifestyle and shares some advice about what she’s learned as an attorney at several startups.  She says networking is vital.  She tells the listener exactly how she networked to make her way into the startup world. She has pivoted successfully because she has acquired an impressive array of transferable skills, learning and adapting as she moves forward.  During a time of rapidly changing technology, her ability to stay current makes her highly valuable to every organization she chooses to be involved with.   Takeaways:     Network and develop relationships of trust Keep learning Lawyers working with startups experience a unique set of challenge Not everyone follows a career path plotted early on   Links: linkedin.com/in/jamiehurewitz www.allremotelegal.com

In junior high school, Fatin was sure she wanted to be a doctor like others in her family. But by high school, and after a few science courses, she was convinced medicine was not in her future.  She did however love French and English classes, especially those in composition.  One goal she fostered was to travel abroad eventually, so when it came time for college, she decided French would be her major.    Fatin chose to attend Kenyon College in Ohio for her undergrad years. When she finished, she wasn’t sure what direction she was going to take, but she tells us she had no desire to teach at that point.  After some thought, she decided to explore the possibility of a career in publishing. She had a college friend who knew someone at the Oxford University Press, and so she interviewed and was hired there in an entry level position.  Although she found her work to be boring, it gave her an introduction to what publishing was all about.  It also allowed her to put some relevant work experience on her resume.   Her next job was as an editorial assistant at Savoy Magazine, an African-American lifestyle and business publication.  While there, she had the opportunity to interview many interesting and influential people.  As she listened to their stories, she was impressed by the contributions so many of them were making. Given to serious reflection, Fatin was prompted to ask herself what she was doing professionally to impact the lives of others. This lingering personal question would take some time to answer.   Fatin next decided to study for a Master of Fine Arts degree in creative writing. She enrolled at the University of Pittsburgh in their 3 year program, and to help pay for tuition, she received a graduate assistantship. This meant she was required to teach freshman composition classes. Though she had no teacher training, she stuck with her assignment and surprisingly enjoyed it.  Upon finishing her master's degree, she gave thought to her next move.   Most of her graduate school peers chose to be teaching artists. These were active writers who held teaching positions to make ends meet. This choice enabled them to continue to be in an academic environment as well.  Fatin considered this option, but she was primarily a poet.  For her, the poetry she wrote was intensely personal and the thought of sending her work off to publishers with the chance for rejection was untenable. Then what to do?   She had enjoyed teaching freshman composition, so she thought perhaps she might like a teaching career after all. But of course now she knew she needed professional training and credentialing.  She enrolled in the School for International Training, Graduate Institute in Vermont in order to earn an MA in ESOL (English to Speakers of Other Languages).  Her degree  work would enable her to travel to Saudi Arabia and Palestine where she taught EFL (English as a Foreign Language) students. These positions were fulfilling as they made her feel she was finally using her talents to help others.  After finishing a practicum in Saudi Arabia, she returned to SIT to finalize work for her degree. Once completed, she moved home to New Jersey and began teaching as an adjunct professor at various community colleges in the vicinity. Her experiences as an adjunct provided crucial on the job teacher training but not much in the way of job perks. She continued for nearly 11 years however, but eventually she wanted to find a teaching position that offered more in the way of financial security and benefits.   This took her to public education where she entered the world of high schools and adolescents.  Prior to this, she had taught students who were often highly motivated.  She had not dealt much with classroom management problems, behavioral issues, special needs students and so forth. She felt unprepared to wear all the hats of a public high school teacher who must work with the whole child, rather than solely teaching academic content to eager minds. She struggled but gave this 5 years. In the end, she decided the many responsibilities were too overwhelming for her and so once more she considered her options.    Without a plan in place initially, she decided to get back to basics.  She began to ponder the idea of opening her own business to “do what you know”.  And what Fatin knew was how to write. She also knew poetry wasn’t marketable, so she eagerly began to tackle copywriting, marketing, content writing and a variety of other specialized written genres she hadn’t worked with much in the past.  When crafting these specialized writing tasks, one must achieve specific goals in order to engage the reader effectively.  Fatin dug in.  She loves learning new things and so she began to absorb all the information she could about writing for business.  She engaged a copywriting coach and had a supportive peer group too. She observed once more that she would need to wear a lot of hats, this time all of them belonging to a business owner.  As she immersed herself in learning everything she could, she began to market her brand on LinkedIn.  She found how effective networking got her name and business in front of the right people.  She says she’s discovered marketing is much more difficult than writing!  Slowly clients began to find her, and through her diligent networking, referrals materialized.   At first she worked for all sorts of clients in order to get her feet wet and to find a specific niche for herself. Her priority was to become known.  But now, after a year and a half, she’s narrowed down the type clients she takes on. Her work concentrates currently on the nonprofit and education markets.    And so while her fledgling business takes hold, she must also work an outside job to keep it  going.  She is currently applying for work as a storyteller and research lead for a curriculum company.    Fatin has pivoted many times throughout her career, but writing is the thread that has run through it all.  She took her love of language and the written word with her wherever she’s been.  Each position she’s held gave her new experiences that enriched her and her work.  She’s developed a variety of transferable skills over time, and reminds us never to discount how valuable those old skills can be in a new job. Her advice to listeners is to tap into our inner compasses to find the best directions.   Topics in this episode: How to make the most of every job you have   How to make the most of your valuable transferable skills   How to deal with the fear of pivoting   How social media and networking can get a new business off the ground   Contact:  [email protected] LinkedIn-https://www.linkedin.com/in/fatinabdalsabur/ Worthy Quote: “Tap into your inner compass.”

Michael Cox is a real career pivoter. Unlike many of Amy’s guests who have “spun off” from one related career to another, Mike has changed fields entirely. He chats with Amy today about the thoughtful process he followed to find his eventual career fulfillment. If you are fearful of moving away from work and a career you don’t enjoy, listen to how one man managed a deliberate and brave major change for his own life and career.   Mike grew up in Maryland and the Washington, D.C. metro area where he became an avid reader, yoga enthusiast, hockey player, skier, kayaker, hiker and rock climber. He participated as a youth in the prestigious National Outdoor Leadership School in Alaska as well.  His academic interests in high school were government and politics with a special curiosity about international affairs. So, with this background, Mike chose the University of Colorado at Boulder for undergrad school. There he could easily pursue his hobbies as he studied for a double major in international affairs and philosophy. While attending, he developed a particular interest in Latin America. It was at this time when he began to focus on foreign service as his ultimate career.   After graduating magna cum laude, Mike received an opportunity to be a paralegal and the assistant to the Honorary Consul of Mongolia at a law firm in the greater Denver area. This was good experience while he considered the best route to take forward to his foreign service goal.  He decided his next step would be to enhance his resume further with a law degree, so he enrolled in the University of Denver, Sturm College of Law. While there, in the summer of 2011, he traveled to Argentina with the Southwestern Law Study Abroad Program and became fluent in Spanish. It was also during law school that he determined to take the foreign service exam.  The FSOT is part of a rigorous 6 step process for entry into foreign service. He was cut at step 5, the oral evaluation phase.  He could have easily retaken the exam as many do, but the experience caused him to rethink this long time goal. He sought out conversations with people in the foreign service and others who could help him better understand the reality of what life would be like. Did he want to move every couple of years?  What would family life be like if he did? He had a myriad of questions that needed honest answers. As he explored more deeply, he was inclined to think that a career in the foreign service was not really what he wanted after all. But then what was?   He was still in law school, and he needed to finish while he continued to think things through. He hadn’t entered the law program with the intention of eventually practicing law, but that’s what happened next. It didn’t happen right away though.  It was 2013 and graduates were having a difficult time finding work in the post-recession job market. (The unemployment rate for this group was 18.3% at the time.) It took Mike 9 months, but he landed a position in a law office in the Washington, D.C. area.  The firm specialized in government contracts and construction, neither of which held much interest for him, but it allowed him to gain yet more experience. He stayed for 3 years. He learned some necessary legal fundamentals, but that period of time assured him this was not the fulfilling work he sought to spend his career doing. He began a process of self-examination which included quite a few tough questions.   Mike explains a “red flag” for him was the realization that there was no one’s position there at the firm he had an interest in or aspired to.  This was a clear indication to him that he had no goals to accomplish or strive for where he was.  He also realized that no one was going to come along and offer him the perfect job.  He was going to have to become proactive. But how? Where would he look?  What work would he find joy in doing? As it turned out, the answers were waiting to be discovered within himself.   During high school and college, Mike had enjoyed many outdoor sports and activities.  Throughout his school years, he had spent his free time in competition with others or just challenging himself. He had even entertained passing his love of all his favorite activities on to others as an instructor. These thoughts were fleeting as he never seriously considered turning his recreational pastimes into a career.  He had pushed ahead with his more intellectual interests in political science and international affairs.  But now he revisited thoughts of this old passion that was still an integral part of his life.    Amy inquired how he made this big transition.  Mike said he began by looking to outdoor travel companies, outdoor education organizations and so forth.  This led him to the then Baltimore based Chesapeake Bay Outward Bound School, conveniently close to Washington, D.C. where he lives.  The school had an administrative opening, so he applied, hoping to get his foot in the door.   Outward Bound is a non-profit, experiential education organization. It serves people of all ages and backgrounds by offering challenging outdoor programs of many types designed to inspire strength of character, leadership and service to others, both in and out of the classroom. This organization seemed like a perfect fit for Mike, and hopefully he would be able to have some direct interaction with the students who participated.    His interviewer (later his mentor and supervisor) called him and told him she could tell he really wanted to be an instructor, not an administrator.  Mike had to admit that was the case.   So, she offered to place him in an apprenticeship program that would teach him the basics he would need to begin as an instructor.  Mike accepted the offer, took a deep breath and resigned as an attorney.  Listen to him describe how this hugely difficult decision changed his life. He shares with listeners how he summoned the courage to reinvent his own personal narrative.    After four years as a field instructor, he is now the Associate Program Director of the Chesapeake Bay Outward Bound School. He still gets out in the field with students and enjoys sharing his passion for nature and outdoor adventuring. He has some good advice to offer for those who might also struggle to make a major career change as he did. If you’re on the career fence, listening to this podcast might just be time very well spent.   Topics in this episode:   How to face the tough questions   How avoidance and regret can catch up with you   Why to become proactive and how to go about it   Networking with people in the know   How to recognize what you can control and what you cannot   Worthy Quote: “I didn’t want anyone’s job there.  If I’m not striving, going for the next position, that means something’s wrong. That was a red flag.”   Links: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-cox-82929970/   www.outwardbooundchesapeake.org  

As a teenager Tatia Gordon wanted to be a model.  She thought this might be her calling after she won some contests and landed a few jobs, but eventually the reality of the limitations of her 5 ft. 4 inch height sunk in.  Luckily she had a teacher who would not let her become discouraged.  Her teacher took a special interest in her, and Tatia credits her for inspiring and convincing her that she had potential in other areas.   Even so, Tatia’s first year of college did not go well.  She felt overwhelmed and unprepared.  She dropped out for a year, and when she returned, she took only one or two courses at a time.  By the time she graduated, she had matured and gained the confidence needed to build an admirable 3.8 average.    She went to work as an accountant, as she had very little exposure to other career possibilities. An uncle, impressed by her grades, suggested she might consider going on to law school.  Tatia hadn’t thought too much about a graduate degree yet, but this idea intrigued her.  She began researching, and within a year, she was accepted and enrolled at the University of Baltimore School of Law.   It was her time in law school that helped her discover her love of writing. How would she follow this path? She decided journalism classes might be in order, and rather than waiting until she finished law school, she signed up for some journalism courses at another college nearby.  She had been watching legal analysts on TV during the OJ Simpson trial and decided with a law degree and some journalism skills and practice, she too could stand before the cameras.  She managed to get as far as auditioning for Court TV, but when her husband was hesitant about pulling up stakes in Baltimore and moving to New York, she rethought her goals.   Tatia didn’t give up on either journalism or law though.  Instead, she found a job as a reporter for the Daily Record, a legal paper in Baltimore.  There she was in charge of the legal beat and wrote newsletters. She put in 3 years at this work and gained a lot of skills including writing with deadlines to meet. The job also gave her the opportunity to interact with many movers and shakers.  It was at this time she met the influential Representative Elijah Cummings from Maryland’s 7th District.  The congressman took a liking to her, and within a few short months of knowing him, he offered her a job as his press secretary in Washington, D.C.   She jumped at the chance for this new and exciting prospect.  She was constantly busy, but the job was disappointing in that she found she really didn’t like politics.  But again, the work taught her many new skills and provided a helpful addition to her resume.    Tatia next moved on to a small law firm in Baltimore to practice law for the first time. The position reaffirmed for her that neither politics nor the practice of law truly were her forte.  She stayed for a couple of years before moving to an association for immigration attorneys, the American Immigration Lawyers Association. She wrote, edited, collaborated, proofread and did a myriad of other related tasks.  She helped grow the association through her work and spearheaded the efforts to publish the award winning, first-ever member magazine, Immigration Law Today.  She eventually became the Director and Senior Legal Editor. She also was the founder and publisher of Attorney at Law Magazine, an edition published for attorneys practicing in some of the Washington, D.C. suburbs.   Fifteen years passed and Tatia loved the work she was doing. But it occurred to her she might have found yet another fulfilling role to explore. She didn’t pivot too far though, because she would still do what she loved. Tatia became an entrepreneur, starting her own publishing company with the goal of helping other attorneys self-publish.  Ramses House Publishing LLC has existed for over 6 years now. In her role she educates and guides attorneys who want to have their works published.  She offers assistance at any and every step of the publishing process. She also consults, calling on the experience she has gained, making organizations not only sustainable but also profitable.    Tatia has found her business very rewarding. She successfully managed to blend her law degree with her love of the written word. Her law school experience taught her how to think outside the box, and that skill has been invaluable to her every day.   She tells Amy she would advise anyone starting their own business to know what they are getting into.  “Running your own business is a 24/7 hustle,” she says. She suggests if you fall flat, it’s because you didn’t realize you have to do everything on your own. She works hard to nurture new professional relationships. She writes two regular columns on LinkedIn to reach out. You can find these on Monday, Tuesday and Thursday. “The What Nots” which offers advice on what not to do if you want to be published.  The second column is “Behind the Book”.  Here she gives advice on the ins and outs of publishing, and serves up great food for thought.   Enjoy listening to this affable entrepreneur describe her climb to success by staying true to herself and making the very best of her innate talents.    Topics in this episode:   A law degree can prepare you for much more than practicing law   It’s important when you own a business to steadily network and build relationships   Build on your often discounted “soft” skills too when you’re deciding on a career   Find online resources that help you make connections with clients and others who are doing what you are   Always seek out new skills to develop in a job that you can carry forward to your next step     Links:   publishingforlawyers.com https://www.linkedin.com/in/tatiagordontroy/ [email protected]