For many people, celebrity culture can feel like a superficial spectacle. But what if celebrity culture is actually doing something much more important than most of us realize? Public historian Greg Jenner argues that celebrity culture is where we have many of our moral and ethical debates. Famous people challenge norms, and in some cases they can change the social rules permanently. At the same time, fandom can easily cross over into fanaticism and obsession. So what exactly does it mean to have a healthy relationship with celebrity culture?Greg hosts the BBC comedy history podcast You’re Dead to Me and is the author of Dead Famous: An Unexpected History of Celebrity. In this Extra Gravy episode, he joins Michael to make the case that celebrity culture stretches back at least three centuries and has helped shape the modern world.Famous & Gravy is a celebrity biography podcast that asks, “What does a celebrity’s life story show us about ourselves?” If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like Episode 45 Rebel Rebel (David Bowie) and Episode 99 Crikey Inner Child (Steve Irwin).This episode was produced by Morgan Honaker. Special thanks to Maggie Taylor.LINKS:Greg Jenner’s Dead FamousYou’re Dead to Me on Apple PodcastsFamous & Gravy official websiteLife Lessons from Dead Celebrities newsletter See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Dolly Parton built one of the most impressive careers in American history, and in many ways she may be the perfect celebrity. She was a singer, songwriter, actor, businesswoman, and philanthropist whose public image was carefully constructed and nevertheless authentic. Her influence stretched from country music and Hollywood to Dollywood and the Imagination Library, while her appeal crossed political, racial, religious, regional, and generational lines.In this special Dolly Parton Day episode, Michael Osborne is joined by Nichelle Carr, Sara Murphy, and John Watts to ask how exactly Dolly achieved such extraordinary appeal. They examine the boundaries she drew between her public persona and private life, her expansive faith, her financial ambition, and her practice of generosity and forgiveness. Ultimately, the conversation considers whether Dolly’s greatest legacy was not simply what she created, but the way she used celebrity itself to make people feel recognized, included, and loved.Famous & Gravy is a celebrity biography podcast that asks, “What does this celebrity’s life story show us about ourselves?”If you enjoyed this episode, you might also enjoy Episode 87 “Simply the Best” (Tina Turner) and Episode 120 "Crazy Sane" (Waylon Jennings)Famous & Gravy is created and hosted by Michael Osborne. This episode features guest cohosts Nichelle Carr, Sara Murphy, and John Watts, with additional contributions from Jennifer Keishin Armstrong and Morgan Honaker. It was produced by Morgan Honaker, with original music by Kevin Strang.LINKS:• Give Like Dolly Day on September 25• Dolly Parton’s Imagination Library• “Sad Ass Songs,” the first episode of Dolly Parton’s America• Jennifer Keishen Armstrong's substack "Dolly Parton and Leslie Knope"• Barbara Walters interviews Dolly Parton in 1977• Dolly Parton’s 2009 interview with Charlie Rose• Dolly Parton’s classic 2001 Fresh Air interview with Terry Gross• Dolly Parton and Patti LaBelle make music with their acrylic nails• “Dolly Parton Built a Better World, with Rhinestones and Songs” from the Associated Press• Life Lessons from Dead Celebrities, the free Famous & Gravy newsletter• Dead or Alive quiz game• Famous & Gravy on Facebook, LinkedIn, and YouTube• Famous & Gravy official websiteEmail us to participate in the opening quiz: [email protected] See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

For the first time ever on the Famous & Gravy podcast, we’re featuring a dead celebrity who does NOT have New York Times obituary. We hope to change that. To the extent that Bill Hicks was famous, at least in America, his fame was posthumous. Michael Osborne and producer Jacob Weiss dive into the backstory and explore just how close he came to breakout success – and how his legacy still looms large more than 30 years later. Hicks got sober in 1988, he kept a fatal diagnosis from almost everyone who loved him, and managed to leave an indelible legacy despite dying at age 32Famous & Gravy is a celebrity biography podcast that asks, "What does this celebrity's life story show us about ourselves?" If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like Episode 92 "Acerbic Comedian" (George Carlin) and Episode 19 "Singing Mailman" (John Prine).LINKS:Guardian obituary for Bill HicksBill Hicks: Relentless on YouTube"The Goat Boy Rises" by John Lahr, The New YorkerAmerican: The Bill Hicks Story (2009)Bill Hicks: It's Just a Ride (1994)Bill Hicks's mother watches his censored Letterman set, 2009 — unofficial upload, may get taken down; worth finding a CBS/Letterman-sourced version if one existsDead or Alive quiz gameFamous & Gravy on Facebook, LinkedIn, ThreadsFamous & Gravy official websiteFamous & Gravy is created by Amit Kapoor and Michael Osborne. This episode was hosted by Michael Osborne and Jacob Weiss, and produced by Jacob Weiss. Original music by Kevin Strang. Visit our website at famousandgravy.com and also enjoy our free mobile quiz game at deadoraliveapp.com See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

James Brown built funk by insisting on total control, over the band and over the beat itself. Michael Osborne and Nichelle Carr trace how that same instinct, born from an orphaned childhood with no stability, made James Brown one of the most sampled artists in history and also led to well-documented domestic abuse. He a complicated figure, to say the least.  James Brown gave the civil rights movement new language with "Say It Loud, I'm Black and I'm Proud," helped keep Boston calm the night Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated, and became perhaps the most influential figure in twentieth century American music.Famous & Gravy is a celebrity biography podcast that asks, "What does this celebrity's life story show us about ourselves?"If you enjoyed this episode, you might also enjoy Episode 78 "Purple Reign" (Prince) and Episode 92 "Acerbic Comedian" (George Carlin).Famous & Gravy is created by Amit Kapoor and Michael Osborne, and hosted by Michael Osborne. This episode features guest co-host Nichelle Carr.LINKS:New York Times obituary for James BrownMr. Dynamite: The Rise of James Brown trailer, the HBO documentary by Alex Gibney referenced in the episodeKill 'Em and Leave by James McBrideThe One: The Life and Music of James Brown by RJ SmithLife Lessons from Dead Celebrities on Substack (free), the Famous & Gravy NewsletterDead or Alive quiz gameFamous & Gravy on Facebook, LinkedIn, ThreadsFamous & Gravy official websiteEmail us for the opening quiz! [email protected] See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Katharine Graham ran The Washington Post through Watergate and the Pentagon Papers, two of the biggest showdowns ever between the American press and the federal government. There's a case to be made that she was the most powerful woman of the 20th century.Katharine Graham inherited The Washington Post only because her husband, Phil Graham, died by suicide in 1963. She had no experience running a newsroom or a company, and by her own account it never occurred to her to do anything but try. Michael Osborne and Sarah Murphy trace how a socialite mother of four became what her own obituary called "the effective steward of a multi-million dollar communications empire" — her partnership with editor Ben Bradlee, her friendship with Warren Buffett, and the sheer size of what Katharine Graham ended up running. Graham's memoir, Personal History, won the Pulitzer Prize a few years before she died.Famous & Gravy is a celebrity biography podcast that asks, "What does this celebrity's life story show us about ourselves?"If you enjoyed this episode, you might also enjoy Episode 122 "Southern Expat" (Harper Lee) and Episode 47 "Proud Mary" (Mary Tyler Moore).Famous & Gravy is created and hosted by Michael Osborne. This episode features guest co-host Sarah Murphy.LINKS:New York Times obituary for Katharine Graham The Post trailer, with Meryl Streep and Tom Hanks, directed by Steven Spielberg Becoming Katharine Graham, PBS documentary trailerPersonal History by Katharine GrahamLife Lessons from Dead Celebrities on Substack (free), the Famous & Gravy NewsletterDead or Alive quiz gameFamous & Gravy on Facebook, LinkedIn, ThreadsFamous & Gravy official websiteEmail us for the opening quiz! [email protected] See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

After five years of grading obituaries from The New York Times, Famous & Gravy finally has a conversation with with someone who actually writes obituaries from The New York Times. Sam Roberts is on the show to share his experiences as a NYT obit writer and to talk about his new book Are They Dead Yet?Roberts has written roughly 1,500 obituaries over his career. He and Michael dig into what actually goes into that first sentence of an obituary: accuracy, notability, economy of language, and the pressure of a deadline that can show up with almost no warning. Roberts tells the story of writing an obituary for Jesus of Nazareth, a piece he expected to get torn apart and got almost no pushback on, and explains why Alfred Nobel spent the rest of his life trying to outrun the one obituary that got published about him too early. Along the way, Michael runs Famous & Gravy's own grading criteria past a professional to see if the show's been fair.Famous & Gravy is a celebrity biography podcast that asks what a celebrity's life story shows us about ourselves. This week, we ask the person who writes the first draft of it.LINKS: Are They Dead Yet? The Art of the Obit by Sam Roberts Sam Roberts's imagined obituary for Jesus of Nazareth Life Lessons from Dead Celebrities (Substack) Dead or Alive quiz game Famous & Gravy on Facebook, LinkedIn, Threads Famous & Gravy official website See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Val Kilmer walked off his first professional set at age 13. It was a hamburger commercial, he thought the burgers looked terrible, and he refused to sell them. He never got paid, and it turned out to be a preview of the rest of his career.Kilmer once said he heard he'd gotten cast in Batman moments after walking out of a bat cave in Africa. He also claimed he rode a horse home faster than should have been physically possible the day his father died. Those stories come from a devout Christian Science faith that later shaped how he handled his own throat cancer diagnosis, including an initial refusal of treatment his children eventually talked him out of. The disease took his speaking voice, and by the time the 2021 documentary Val came out, his son Jack was narrating some of his father's own words. The film traced a career that ran from Jim Morrison and Iceman in Top Gun to Doc Holliday in Tombstone, alongside a reputation on set that made him one of the more polarizing actors of his generation.Famous & Gravy is a celebrity biography podcast that asks, "What does this celebrity's life story show us about ourselves?"If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like Episode 50 "Golden Rose" (Betty White) and Episode 51 "Goofball Stud" (Bill Paxton).LINKS:Val Kilmer NYT ObituaryI'm Your Huckleberry, Val Kilmer's memoir Collider article on why Val Kilmer quit BatmanVal Kilmer talks with Larry King, previews Top Gun 2Famous & Gravy quiz: [email protected]: famousandgravy.comDead or Alive quiz gameFamous & Gravy on Facebook, LinkedIn, ThreadsFamous & Gravy official website See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Matthew Perry died in 2023 at fifty-four, and despite his very public battle with addiction, the first line of his obituary made no mention of his disease. Michael Osborne and Alice Orr argue that Matthew Perry is a case study in fame and addiction, working through his memoir, Friends, Lovers, and the Big Terrible Thing, where he admits he has no memory of filming three entire seasons of Friends. They get into his broken engagement to Julia Roberts, the sponsor turned business partner, and the question of what it takes to cultivate a quality of self-love when the disease of addiction is always working against you.Famous & Gravy is a celebrity biography podcast that asks, "What can a celebrity life story show us about ourselves?"If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like:Episode 119, Hungry Ghost (Anthony Bourdain)Episode 108, Gonzo Troubadour (Hunter S. Thompson)LINKSAlice Florence Orr, Managing Editor of Podcast ReviewNYT obituary, Matthew PerryFriends, Lovers, and the Big Terrible Thing, Matthew Perry's memoirStudio 60 on the Sunset Strip trailer, the canceled Aaron Sorkin pilot Matthew Perry puts Peter Hitchens to shame about addictionBest moments from the Friends 2021 reunionInterview with Tom Power about his memoirYour Favorite Podcast Host is (Probably) in Recovery, Osborne article published in Podcast ReviewFamous & Gravy quiz: [email protected]: famousandgravy.comDead or Alive quiz gameFamous & Gravy on Facebook, LinkedIn, ThreadsFamous & Gravy official website See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Marco Polo spent 24 years crossing the Mongol Empire and came home with stories so wild that his own neighbors called him a liar. In this episode, Michael sits down with Denis Belliveau, who in the 1990s spent two years retracing Marco Polo's actual route: from Venice through Afghanistan during the warlord period, into a newly opened Iran, and across the Silk Road into China, without ever boarding a plane. Denis made a documentary from the experience, which was nominated for Emmys. He now shares his story with students to inspire them about travel, geography, and culture. His website is In the Footsteps of History:https://inthefootsteps.org/This is one of our occasional off-format conversations, built around a single interview rather than the show's normal segments. Even though it's been 700 years, we still want to know what can a life story, shows us about ourselves? Denis talks about getting held at gunpoint near the ancient site of Balkh, being among the first American civilians allowed into Iran since 1979, and the strange coincidences that kept opening doors along the way. He also gets into who Marco Polo actually was: a natural storyteller who charmed Kublai Khan as a teenager, and a man whose curiosity outran the prejudices of his own century.Thanks to Rachel Huss for telling us about Denis. Read her article here! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

David Lynch died in 2025 at seventy-eight, and his own obituary somehow never mentioned Twin Peaks or Mulholland Drive. Michael Osborne and longtime Famous & Gravy editor Jacob Weiss spend this episode on the gap between David Lynch the public weirdo, the mind behind Blue Velvet and Eraserhead, and David Lynch the strikingly normal man underneath: a lifelong devotee of transcendental meditation who loved coffee, cigarettes, and burgers more than he loved being understood. The strangest thread they pull on: a filmmaker whose work returned again and again to smoke and fire died as the Los Angeles wildfires burned around him, at the same age David Lynch always seemed to defy.Famous & Gravy is a celebrity biography podcast that asks,  "Would you want that life?"If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like:Episode 82, Rebel Rebel (David Bowie)Episode 75 Love and OJ Jokes (Norm MacDonald)LINKSNYT obituary, David Lynch"David Lynch Keeps His Head," David Foster Wallace's 1996 profile referenced in this episodeKCRW's David Lynch daily weather forecast archiveNaomi Watts, Laura Dern & Patricia Arquette Tell David Lynch StoriesDocumentary on the midnight movie circuit and Eraserhead's cult runFamous & Gravy quiz: [email protected]: famousandgravy.comDead or Alive quiz gameFamous & Gravy on Facebook, LinkedIn, ThreadsFamous & Gravy official website See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.