Who was Charles Grodin when the cameras weren't rolling?Most people know Charles Grodin from Midnight Run, The Heartbreak Kid or Beethoven. Far fewer know that he spent the last 20 years of his life working to get women out of prison, and visited them every week. Charles Grodin: Rebel with a Cause, the Charles Grodin documentary from James L. Freedman, tells both stories.In Episode 288, Christian sits down with James L. Freedman, a longtime sitcom writer who came to documentary filmmaking late. A question at a party about the best job he ever had led to his first film, Glickman, which Martin Scorsese executive produced for HBO. For his third, Grodin's widow, Elissa Grodin, sent him seven boxes of archives, about a hundred hours of material, and James did all of the research himself.James explains why he wouldn't make "an hour of him being funny" with the activism saved for the end. Instead he seeded Grodin's conscience through the whole film: the class president who helped Black students in Pittsburgh, the 1969 Simon & Garfunkel television special that lost its sponsor, and the CNBC show that turned to social issues. James quotes Grodin's own line: "You don't want me to picket the governor's office, you want me to be in the governor's office."He also walks through how he hunted down archival footage, how an independent filmmaker got Robert De Niro, Steve Martin, Martin Short and Elaine May on camera, and how he keeps a budget down as, in his words, "one guy making this movie."WATCH THE FILM: Charles Grodin: Rebel with a Cause is available to rent or buy on Amazon Prime Video, Apple TV, Fandango at Home and Google Play.James's film Carl Laemmle airs on TCM on Friday, October 23, at 8:00 p.m. ET.In this episode, you'll learn:Why James writes down his first impression of everything he likes, so he remembers how it first hit him after he's gone numb to itWhy he finds a story's spine first, and how he knew his opening and closing when he saw themHow the stars said yes, and why famous interviewees want to know who else is in the filmHow Elaine May changed her mind about an interview, and what she said after seeing the filmHow a Johnny Carson story became a Charles Bronson sequence, and why every second needs intentWhere to find archival footage when none seems to existHow fair use, donated clips, grants and paid festival screenings fit into a documentary budgetWhat surprised him most about Grodin: the weekly prison visits, and the father Grodin lost at 17CHAPTERS0:00 Midnight Run's Other Side6:43 TV Writer Turned Filmmaker12:24 Beginning, Middle and End18:23 Getting De Niro and Elaine May26:51 Charles Grodin on Johnny Carson29:35 The Archival Footage Hunt36:42 Narrating Your Own Documentary39:43 Fair Use, Licensing and Costs48:15 Scorsese's TCM Editing Trick50:19 Weekly Prison Visits53:54 Carl Laemmle Saved 300+ RefugeesFREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONSHow did a small documentary get Robert De Niro, Steve Martin and Martin Short?Director James L. Freedman says his first two films helped: Elissa Grodin watched both before giving him her husband's story, then connected him with Robert De Niro and Steve Martin. He cold-called Martin Short. Freedman believes they agreed because they loved Charles Grodin, and that stars want to see other recognizable names in a film so they know they aren't being exploited.What did Charles Grodin do for prison reform?For the last 20 years of his life, Charles Grodin worked to get women out of prison, most of them mothers of color with young children who had been caught in police stings. Director James L. Freedman says Grodin visited them every week, and a friend who saw him after those visits said he would come away a broken man, crying. As Freedman tells it, Grodin believed he could do more inside the governor's office than picketing outside it.How do independent documentary filmmakers keep costs down?James L. Freedman doesn't pay himself for his time, so he does the slow work himself: all of his own research and his own calls to studios. He asks rights holders to donate clips and photos, and when he has to pay, he asks for a discount, reminding them he is one filmmaker, not a corporation. When something unavoidable costs more, like a hotel suite for an interview, he makes the money back by spending less elsewhere.How do you find archival footage for a documentary?Director James L. Freedman does his own research and calls it a scavenger hunt. With no footage of Lovers and Other Strangers, the Broadway play Charles Grodin directed, he Googled every name in the Playbill and found a scene on The Ed Sullivan Show. For Glickman, he slowed a two-second newsreel shot to four seconds, and a snowy VHS tape led him to an old Paramount newsreel on nitrate film that came back crystal clear six months later.DOCUVIEW DEJA VIEW PICKSJames's pick: Carl Laemmle (2019), his own second film, about the founder of Universal Studios, who helped more than 300 refugees escape Nazi Germany. It's on Amazon now. James says Glickman, his first film, comes to Fandango at Home by year's end.Need a doc for date night? Browse every guest pick on our DocuView Deja View page.SPONSORED BY VIRGIL FILMS ENTERTAINMENTThis episode is brought to you by Virgil Films Entertainment, distributor of Super Size Me and the Oscar-nominated Restrepo, with over 25 years of distribution experience. https://virgilfilms.comLISTEN AND FOLLOWListen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/6e27d4Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirstSUPPORT THE SHOWJoin our community on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/DocumentaryFirstCONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRSTAll platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1stChristian Taylor on LinkedInABOUT THE GUESTJames L. FreedmanWriter, director and narrator, Charles Grodin: Rebel with a CauseJames L. Freedman wrote in Hollywood for more than 25 years, on shows including Coach, Cybill, where he was also a co-producer, and Zoe, Duncan, Jack & Jane. Charles Grodin: Rebel with a Cause, his third film, is distributed by Virgil Films.Website: https://charlesgrodinfilm.comX (the film): https://x.com/ChuckGrodinFilmABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRSTDocumentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers from Ken Burns and PBS American Masters creator Susan Lacy to first-time directors, across more than 290 episodes. Each week brings one of two formats: a long-form conversation with the people behind films for HBO, Netflix, PBS and independent film, or The Deep Dive, where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. New episodes every week.RESOURCES MENTIONEDTCM Films on Film schedule

What does The Velveteen Rabbit, a 1922 children's book about a stuffed toy, have to do with old home movies and AI?In Margery Williams' classic story, an old toy called the Skin Horse tells a stuffed rabbit that being real isn't about how you are made. It is something that happens to you when you are loved for a long time. In this episode of Documentary First: The Deep Dive, Christian Taylor follows that idea from the nursery to old home movies, the scratchy 8mm reels families shot for decades, and asks what it means to keep things real now that tools can make footage of things that never happened.In this Deep Dive on Documentary First Episode 287 with Phil Maher, founder of Stockfilm, a home movie archive with over 200,000 clips from the 1930s to the 1980s, Christian picks up on something Phil told her. Stockfilm keeps the scratches and the dust, because they make the footage feel original and real. That sent her back to Christmas Day, 1986, in her family's home in Arlington, Virginia. She was 17. Her little sister Annie, then three, had been given The Velveteen Rabbit as a book and cassette, read by Meryl Streep with George Winston playing the music underneath. Annie fell asleep in her lap. Christian kept listening, had never heard the story before, and found herself crying. It became her favorite story to read to children.From there, Christian brings the Skin Horse's idea back to Phil's archive. Phil has seen hundreds of Christmases on those reels and thinks of himself as a steward of these people's lives. Christian looks at why that kind of real matters more now that AI can show a face that never existed or a moment in history nobody was there to see, and at Phil's clear line: the footage itself stays 100 percent real, because it is the historical record. She shares why she has spent weeks setting up a NAS, network-attached storage, at home: she doesn't want to lose years of work, and the RAID drive holding her film The Girl Who Wore Freedom is failing. She also talks about why so many people want to own the album or the CD again instead of licensing it. She closes with practical steps for anyone with a box of old reels in the closet, and with the end of the rabbit's story, where his spots still show through.In this episode, Christian explores:Why Phil Maher keeps the scratches and dust in Stockfilm's home moviesHearing The Velveteen Rabbit for the first time on Christmas Day, 1986What the Skin Horse tells the Rabbit about becoming realWhy, once you are real, shabbiness doesn't matterWhy imperfection can be what makes an audience believe a filmWhat changes when AI can make footage of things that never happenedWhy Phil says real footage is the historical record, and AI recreations should be disclosedWhy Christian is setting up a NAS while the RAID drive holding her film is failingOwning a movie or an album versus licensing itWhat Phil sees again and again on old reels: people dancing togetherHow to preserve old home movies, from digitizing to keeping copies in three placesCHAPTERS0:00 The Velveteen Rabbit, Christmas 19864:21 What Is Real? The Skin Horse6:34 Scratches, Dust and AI Footage9:40 Why Physical Media Still Matters13:50 The Splendid New BunnyFREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONSWhat is the Skin Horse's quote about being real in The Velveteen Rabbit?In Margery Williams' 1922 book, the old Skin Horse tells the Rabbit that "Real isn't how you are made" and that "It's a thing that happens to you." A toy becomes real when a child loves it for a long time, not just to play with. By then most of its hair has been loved off and it is shabby, but, as the Skin Horse says, once you are real you can't be ugly, except to people who don't understand.Why do filmmakers leave the scratches and dust in old home movies?Phil Maher, who founded Stockfilm, keeps his footage as close to the original as he can, scratches included. He says those marks make footage feel original and real, and show that this is how it looked. In this Deep Dive, Christian Taylor argues the imperfection is sometimes the very thing that lets an audience believe a film, and suggests filmmakers leave the scratches in when they tell the truth.How do you preserve old home movies and film reels?Start by not throwing them out. Phil Maher of Stockfilm says that is how many family memories get lost: reels sit in a closet in a format nobody knows how to play, until someone tosses them. Get them digitized, but keep the originals, and keep them away from heat and humidity. Then store copies in more than one place. Phil keeps three: on-site, in the cloud, and off-site with no internet connection.Who narrated the 1985 recording of The Velveteen Rabbit?The 1985 Rabbit Ears Productions recording of The Velveteen Rabbit was narrated by Meryl Streep, with music by pianist George Winston. It was sold as a book and cassette. Christian Taylor first heard it on Christmas Day, 1986, when her little sister Annie, then three, was given the set as a gift. Annie fell asleep, but Christian, then 17, kept listening and has read the story to children ever since.Should filmmakers tell audiences when they use AI to recreate history?Yes, according to Phil Maher, founder of the home movie archive Stockfilm. He uses AI to date and search footage, but he keeps the footage itself 100 percent real, because it is the historical record. If a filmmaker uses AI to recreate a moment in history, he says, the audience should be told what is real and what isn't. Christian Taylor agrees, and adds that viewers will likely trust the film more for it.LISTEN AND FOLLOWListen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/6bcd99Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirstSUPPORT THE SHOWJoin the Documentary First community on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/DocumentaryFirstCONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRSTAll platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1stChristian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylorABOUT THE TOPICThe Velveteen RabbitThe Velveteen Rabbit, or How Toys Become Real, was written by Margery Williams and first published in 1922 with illustrations by William Nicholson. It is in the public domain in the United States and free to read through Project Gutenberg.The 1985 RecordingRabbit Ears Productions released The Velveteen Rabbit in 1985, narrated by Meryl Streep with music by pianist George Winston. It was sold as a book and cassette.Phil Maher and StockfilmPhil Maher founded Stockfilm in 2015, after digitizing his grandfather's 8mm home movies. Stockfilm licenses real 8mm and Super 8 home movie footage from the 1930s through the 1980s, keeps every physical reel after scanning, and uses AI to search and catalog the archive, never to alter the footage.Website: https://stockfilm.comLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/philmaher/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/stockfilmX: https://x.com/stockfilmcomYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@StockFilmFootageThe Source EpisodeArchival Footage: Why Use Home Movies?, Documentary First Episode 287 with Phil MaherListen: https://pod.fo/e/699995Watch: https://youtu.be/pQ7OXqY2av4ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST: THE DEEP DIVEDocumentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers from Ken Burns to first-time directors. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide. The Deep Dive is the companion series where Christian takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads.RESOURCES MENTIONEDThe Velveteen Rabbit by Margery Williams (Project Gutenberg): https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/11757The Velveteen Rabbit, Rabbit Ears Productions recording, 1985 (Wikipedia): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Velveteen_Rabbit_(album)

What happens to a family's home movies when no one knows what to do with them?Phil Maher was a software engineer looking for a sense of purpose when he started watching his grandfather's family reels and saw his father and his brothers, a big Irish Catholic family in Chicago. He kept going. Some families sold him their reels; others gave them so their family would be remembered. "Everyone's lost to history except the few elites that make it through history and are remembered," Phil says, and he wanted to be "a steward to these people's lives," down to their vacation trips, Halloween costumes and Christmases. Those home movies, the 8mm and Super 8 reels families shot from the 1930s through the 1980s, are archival footage that adds texture and emotion without narration having to explain it.In Episode 287, Christian sits down with Phil Maher, founder of Stockfilm, a home movie archive with over 200,000 clips. Since 2015, Phil has built a library of archival footage that filmmakers can search and license. Stockfilm keeps every scratch and flaw on purpose, and it keeps the physical reel after every scan.Phil walks through how a reel becomes a licensable 4K clip: cleaning, splicing, scanning, and dating footage with no label by reading the cars and clothes in the frame. He explains vinegar syndrome and why one decaying reel can damage the reels stored beside it. Christian and Phil take on footage houses that charge for public domain Signal Corps film and draw a firm line on AI. Stockfilm uses it to search and catalog the archive, never to change a frame. As Phil puts it, "We can prove every frame that we have, because we have it." Christian also shares 1947 home movies of Carentan, Normandy, shot by the father of Yves Marchais, whose story is at the center of her film in production, Heroes of Carentan.The conversation turns to physical film versus cloud storage, and Christian brings up the Nine PBS case. In March 2026, the St. Louis public television station lost access to more than 50 terabytes of its archive, 70 years of its history, when its cloud storage vendor cut off access. It backs up Phil's point that the cloud can go away, because you do not really own it.In this episode, you'll learn:Why home movies give a documentary emotion that narration can'tHow one family's 8mm reels became a searchable archiveHow an unlabeled reel gets dated from cars, clothing and AIWhat vinegar syndrome is, and why it spreads between reelsWhy you should keep the physical reel after digitizing itWhy paying for Signal Corps footage can mean paying for something freeWhere AI belongs in archival work, and why AI recreations should be labeledWhy physical media belongs in a real backup planCHAPTERS0:00 A Grandfather's 8mm Became Stockfilm9:28 Racing to Save Fading Film13:18 How Do You Date Unlabeled Reels?18:38 What Is Vinegar Syndrome?20:56 Is Public Domain Footage Free?23:36 Why Home Movies Move Audiences27:18 Smoking, Dancing, Forgetting to Smile32:34 AI in Documentary Filmmaking35:02 Cloud or Physical Media?39:08 Donating Your Family Archive42:44 Dawson City: Frozen TimeFREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONSWhy use home movies as archival footage in a documentary?Home movies capture ordinary life the way it actually looked, scratches and all. Stockfilm founder Phil Maher says filmmakers turn to them when they want texture and emotion, something real that doesn't need narration to explain it. In his words, "A few seconds of just showing someone a place and time can really just get people into that spot and really create that moment that connects with the audience."Where can I find free archival footage for a documentary?Much U.S. government footage, including World War II Signal Corps film, is free through the National Archives and the Library of Congress. Christian Taylor points out that commercial footage houses often charge download and license fees for that same public domain material. Doing the research yourself takes longer, but it can save an independent film real money.How do you date old home movie footage with no label?Start with the clues inside the frame. Phil Maher of Stockfilm explains that cars are one of the best markers, because a shot can't predate the model year of a car that appears in it. Clothing narrows it further. Today AI image recognition helps suggest dates and keywords, but the footage itself is never altered.What is vinegar syndrome in old film?Vinegar syndrome is the breakdown of acetate safety film, the stock used for most 8mm and Super 8 home movies. As it degrades, the film gives off a vinegar smell, warps, shrinks and dries out. Phil Maher warns it can spread almost like a mold to reels stored nearby, so separate affected film and keep it away from heat and humidity.Should documentaries label AI-generated historical footage?Yes, according to Phil Maher. Stockfilm uses AI to search and catalog its archive but never to alter the footage, because the footage is the historical record. If a filmmaker uses AI to recreate a historical battle or event, Maher says the audience needs to be told it is AI-created, a fictional rendition of what may or may not have happened.DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKSPhil's pick: Dawson City: Frozen Time (2016), directed by Bill Morrison, built from more than 500 silent-era reels dug out of the Yukon permafrost in 1978.SPONSORED BY VIRGIL FILMS ENTERTAINMENTThis episode is brought to you by Virgil Films Entertainment, distributor of Super Size Me and the Oscar-nominated Restrepo, with over 25 years of distribution experience. https://virgilfilms.comLISTEN AND FOLLOWListen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/699995Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/pQ7OXqY2av4SUPPORT THE SHOWJoin our community on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/DocumentaryFirstCONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRSTAll platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1stChristian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylorABOUT THE GUESTPhil MaherFounder, StockfilmPhil Maher holds a computer science degree from Illinois State University and spent his career as a software engineer. He founded Stockfilm in 2015 and has spent more than a decade collecting, scanning and cataloging family reels.Email: [email protected]: https://stockfilm.comLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/philmaher/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/stockfilm X: https://x.com/stockfilmcom YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@StockFilmFootageABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRSTDocumentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers from Ken Burns to first-time directors. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide.RESOURCES MENTIONEDNational Archives: https://www.archives.govLibrary of Congress: https://www.loc.govDawson City: Frozen Time (Bill Morrison, 2016): https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5215486/Nine PBS lawsuit (Current): https://current.org/2026/08/nine-pbs-sues-iron-mountain-over-blocked-access-to-archival-data/

Do you have a documentary, or do you have a Wikipedia entry?Somebody decides whether your documentary gets made. Sophia Dilley is one of those people. She runs Concord Originals, the division behind Stax: Soulsville U.S.A. on HBO, and she is Co-President of RKO, which Concord bought in June 2025 along with more than 5,000 titles including King Kong, Citizen Kane and It's a Wonderful Life. In this episode she gives away the three questions she asks before her team commits to anything.In Episode 286, Christian sits down with Sophia Dilley, Executive Vice President of Concord Originals and Co-President of RKO, to talk about how a project gets chosen, how to reach out to someone far above you, and how music rights for film work when the budget you have is the only budget there is.The spine of the conversation is a question Dilley asks before her team commits to anything: is this a Wikipedia story we're telling? If the whole thing is already available in twelve seconds of searching, there may not be a film in it. Around that sit her two other threshold questions, a working answer to why the documentary business feels impossible right now, and the plainest reassurance in the episode. "It's scary," she says. "It's scary for everybody." Along the way: a punk band that played CBGB's, a production designer father who left for set at four forty-five in the morning, Roger Deakins as a case study in how to write to someone you admire, and the difference between distribution rights and derivative rights, which is the thing almost everyone (including Christian!) got wrong about the RKO deal. If you have ever been told that music rights for film are impossible on an independent budget, she has a different answer.In this episode, you'll learn:What Concord actually acquired when it bought RKO, and why distribution rights and derivative rights are two entirely different thingsThe three questions Sophia Dilley asks before committing to any storyHow to tell whether you have a film or a Wikipedia entryThe difference between sync and publishing, and why one song can mean two negotiations with two different companiesWhat to say to a music company when the budget you have is the only budget there isWhy a music documentary takes five years on average, and what eats the timeWhy a rejection is usually about the marketplace rather than about your filmHow to open a door with someone you admire without being, in her words, a scary, creepy fanWhat it looks like inside a company that generates most of its projects out of its own catalogCHAPTERS0:00 What Concord Actually Bought With RKO5:34 From CBGB's to Running a Studio Division11:42 Reaching Out to People Above You16:32 Why Distribution Is Scary for Everybody21:26 Who Are You Really Competing With?26:02 Music Rights for Film: Sync and Publishing29:49 Why a Doc Takes Five Years34:54 How Does She Decide What Gets Made?41:44 Women, Allies, and Your Replacement46:05 What if You Can't Afford the Song?50:05 Closing Argument and DocuView Deja VuFREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONSHow do you get music rights for a documentary?You need permission from more than one owner. The song belongs to a publisher and the specific recording belongs to a label, so most documentaries need both a sync license and a master use license. On Stax: Soulsville U.S.A., that meant clearing more than thirty artists, multiple publishers and several estates. Concord Originals EVP Sophia Dilley says the first step is acknowledging you need those rights before you build the film around them.What if I can't afford to license a song for my film?Call anyway, and be honest about the budget. Sophia Dilley advises independent filmmakers to say who they are, name what the film was made for, show the actual scene the song would sit under, and ask directly for help. "Behind every door at every music company, there are real people," she says. A studio with a real budget cannot use that approach. A genuine independent often can.How long does it take to make a music documentary?Longer than most filmmakers expect. Sophia Dilley of Concord Originals puts the average at five years, at least. Stax: Soulsville U.S.A. began in 2018, when a colleague walked into her office with the story, and premiered on HBO in May 2024. Much of that time goes to music rights, estates and publishers rather than to production, because every stakeholder connected to the music has to be brought on side first.Who owns RKO now?Concord Originals acquired RKO Pictures in June 2025, but the deal is narrower than it sounds. Distribution rights to the classic RKO library remain with Turner. What Concord bought are the derivative rights, meaning remakes, sequels, prequels, story and stage rights to more than 5,000 titles the studio produced in-house. Sophia Dilley serves as Co-President of RKO, which continues to operate under Concord Originals.DOCUVIEW DEJA VU PICKSSophia Dilley's picks:New York Doll (2005), directed by Greg Whiteley. A deep cut about Arthur "Killer" Kane of the New York Dolls and his search for his own history. Dilley notes that Whiteley went on to make Cheer, and the warmth is already here.Science Fair (2018), directed by Cristina Costantini and Darren Foster. She saw it at SXSW, where it won the Audience Award. Teenagers at the international science fair, and, in her words, so much magic in following a real human story.SPONSORED BYThis episode is brought to you by Virgil Films Entertainment. Over 25 years of distribution experience, from Super Size Me and the Oscar-nominated Restrepo to Forks Over Knives and Speed is Expensive. If you are a filmmaker having trouble with distribution, talk to Virgil.LISTEN AND FOLLOWListen on any podcast app: https://pod.fo/e/5ffe38Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirstSupport the show on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/DocumentaryFirstCONNECTDocumentary First on all platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1stChristian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylorABOUT THE GUESTSophia Dilley is Executive Vice President of Concord Originals and Co-President of RKO. Concord hired her in 2018 to build a content strategy, and in 2021 she launched Concord Originals, the company's film and television division. Her father was a production designer, so she grew up on movie sets watching what the work actually costs. Before film, she thought she would go into music: piano, violin, voice lessons, and a punk band in high school that played CBGB's in New York.ABOUT CONCORD ORIGINALSConcord Originals is the film and television arm of Concord, developing screen stories out of one of the largest independent music and theatrical catalogs in the world. Most of its projects are self-generated, which Dilley describes as the division's whole remit: take what is already under the roof and find a new life for it. Because the catalog is the source, music rights for film sit at the center of nearly every project the division takes on.Recent and upcoming work discussed in this episode:Stax: Soulsville U.S.A. (HBO, 2024), the four-part series directed by Jamila Wignot. Peabody winner, nominated for two Emmys.Billy Preston: That's the Way God Planned It (2026), directed by Paris Barclay, in theaters through Abramorama.Pretty Ugly: The Story of the Lunachicks (2026), directed by Ilya Chaiken, brought to Concord by Betsy West and Julie Cohen.Films on Billie Holiday, Cyndi Lauper, Shari Lewis and Lamb Chop, and Creedence Clearwater Revival, with Robert Johnson and Fania Records on the way.ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRSTDocumentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers from Ken Burns to first-time directors. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide.RESOURCES MENTIONEDSoulsville U.S.A.: The Story of Stax Records by Rob Bowman, the book behind the film: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2775862Documentary First Episode 277, Teddy Cannon on music rights and licensing, the other side of this conversation: https://pod.fo/e/413f3a

Who finishes your film if you can't?Andre N. Jackson had never made a film. He had twenty years in technology and security, an idea that arrived while he was sitting in a barber's chair, and no way into the industry. He finished the film anyway, and he came on the show with three lessons for other filmmakers. Two more came out while we were talking.In Episode 285, Christian sits down with first-time filmmaker Andre N. Jackson to talk about "Beyond Banners," his film about the basketball program at Gwynn Park High School in Prince George's County, Maryland. Over a twenty-year run the team reached twelve state championships and won more than any high school in the state. The film starts there and ends up somewhere else entirely.Andre puts it plainly: "I actually learned about filmmaking through making a film." The spine of the conversation is what it takes to make a documentary when nothing is set up in your favor. Andre leaned on the research and analysis skills he built as an intelligence analyst, cold-called a Hall of Fame coach, funded it through a fiscal sponsor, used AI as a second brain, and kept going through two heart attacks in three days, the second while he was still in the hospital. Along the way the film became a story about stewardship, about the people who stayed, and about what the commercialization of youth sports is doing to community public schools.In this episode, you'll learn:How an idea that arrived in a barber's chair became a finished film with no film school behind itThe cold call that landed Hall of Fame coach Tubby SmithWhat a fiscal sponsor is, and how the Southern Documentary Fund made donors want to giveWhat two heart attacks in three days taught him about succession, and what he changed the week he got outHow AI reenacted a co-protagonist who had died and left almost no footage behindTHE FIVE LESSONSLean into your superpowersGet comfortable taking calculated risksGet creative about filling gapsPlan for your absenceUse AI as a second brainCHAPTERS0:00 No Film School, No Connections3:16 How Do You Fund a First Documentary?6:09 When a Team Becomes a Town11:53 The Cost of Commercializing Youth Sports18:58 Planning for Your Own Absence24:37 AI as a Second Brain29:16 Cold Calling a Hall of Fame Coach33:45 Why the Collective Should MatterFREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONSHow do you make a documentary with no film school?Lean into the skills you already have and hire for the ones you do not. Andre N. Jackson spent twenty years as an intelligence analyst, so he built his film on research and relationship building, the two things he was already good at. Then he deliberately recruited crew members who covered his gaps in craft and experience. He learned filmmaking by making a film, not before making one.How do you fund a documentary with no industry money?A fiscal sponsor is the most common route. It is a 501(c)(3) that sits between your project and your donors, so contributions become tax deductible and donors have a reason to say yes. Andre used the Southern Documentary Fund. You apply, you are accepted, you onboard, and then you can offer donors a tax break for backing your film. He combined that with personal funds and direct fundraising.How do you get well-known people to be in your documentary?Cold call them, and be specific about who you both know. Andre landed Hall of Fame coach Tubby Smith by reaching out directly and naming a mutual connection to establish trust. He got Wake Forest star Randolph Childress through a warm introduction from a Gwynn Park alumnus. The pattern is the same either way: ask, and use the relationships your relationships already have.What happens to your documentary if you cannot finish it?Plan for your absence before you need to. After two heart attacks during production, Andre started documenting what had only ever lived in his head and briefed his executive producer and his producer on the next steps, so the film could be completed whether or not he was there. Contingency planning in film usually means backup drives. It should also mean succession.Can AI help you make your first documentary?Andre used it three ways: to learn the end-to-end production process he never went to film school for, to generate an animated reenactment of a co-protagonist who had died and left almost no footage behind, and as a second brain that challenged his assumptions and pressure-tested his interview questions. He was clear it supplemented human mentorship rather than replacing it.DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKS"Undefeated" (2011), directed by Daniel Lindsay and T.J. Martin. Winner of the Academy Award for Best Documentary Feature. Andre's direct inspiration for making "Beyond Banners.""The Last Dance" (2020), ESPN and Netflix. Andre is a Michael Jordan fan and names it as the film that came before Undefeated for him.SPONSORED BYThis episode is brought to you by Virgil Films Entertainment, distributor of Super Size Me and the Oscar-nominated Restrepo, with over 25 years of distribution experience. Virgil Films EntertainmentABOUT THE GUESTAndre N. Jackson is a first-time documentary filmmaker based in Fairfax, Virginia, who wrote and directed "Beyond Banners." He spent twenty years in technology and security, including work as an intelligence analyst on cybersecurity and terrorism issues, and is a 1998 graduate of Gwynn Park High School, the subject of his film.ABOUT THE FILM"Beyond Banners" is directed by Andre N. Jackson and follows the basketball program at Gwynn Park High School in Prince George's County, Maryland. In the words of the film's own logline: a son returns to his alma mater to carry his father's coaching legacy, only to discover that the winning tradition he grew up in was built for a world that no longer exists.Website: https://beyondbannersdocumentary.comInstagram: @beyondbannersdocumentaryABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRSTDocumentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers from Ken Burns to first-time directors. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide.RESOURCES MENTIONEDSouthern Documentary Fund, fiscal sponsorship: https://southerndocumentaryfund.orgJames Hawkins, book on Gwynn Park's 1968 to 1970 state championship three-peatMarquis Smalls, writer, director and producer, Street Dreams Films, Brooklyn, New York: https://streetdreamsfilms.comHiggsfield, the AI tool used for the animated reenactmentLISTEN AND FOLLOWListen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/562e4cWatch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirstSUPPORT THE SHOWJoin our community on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/DocumentaryFirstCONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRSTAll platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1stChristian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

When did your audience stop being people and become a number?Most independent films and podcasts do not fail because the work is bad. They fail because no one ever felt like they belonged to them. This Deep Dive is about how to build an audience for your documentary before it is ever released, and the one ingredient that decides whether people stay with what you make.In this Deep Dive on Documentary First Episode 284 with Dutch filmmaker Jonathan de Jong, host Christian Taylor takes the idea at the heart of his film “Human Forever,” the most-watched human interest documentary in Dutch cinema history, and follows it somewhere unexpected: the same thing that makes dementia care humane is the thing that built his audience.The spine of the episode is a single word, belonging. Jonathan says the most dangerous part of dementia is not the diagnosis, it is the feeling of not belonging. Christian tests that idea against her own father’s move into memory care this month, then turns it on filmmakers through Martin Buber’s 1923 book “I and Thou” and the difference between treating a person as an “It” and meeting them as a “Thou.” The through line: build belonging before you build buzz.In this episode, Christian explores:Why the feeling of not belonging is the most dangerous part of dementia, in Jonathan de Jong’s own wordsThe one ingredient that decides whether people stay with what you makeHow Jonathan built an audience for “Human Forever” before a single frame was shotWhy building a movement beat marketing a filmWhat belonging looks like in one real room, on her father’s move dayMartin Buber’s “I and Thou” and the difference between an It and a ThouHow filmmaking goes wrong the moment your audience becomes a numberWhy you invite people to belong instead of reaching for themThe question to ask about anyone you put in front of your cameraWhat a documentary about dementia can teach any filmmaker about reachCHAPTERS0:00 The Secret That Keeps an Audience2:04 The Most Dangerous Feeling5:16 The People and the Plan7:53 Build Belonging Before Buzz11:26 Meet Them, Don’t AimFREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONSHow do you build an audience for a documentary before it is released? You build belonging first. Jonathan de Jong built a movement around “Human Forever” before the film existed, a real person at the center and bestselling books out in the world, so audiences already felt part of something by release. The lesson for any filmmaker: make people feel they belong to what you are doing long before you ask them to watch, buy, or share it.What is the best way to market a documentary with no budget? Stop marketing and start including. Invite people into the mission instead of aiming promotion at them. When an audience feels seen and part of the story, they carry it for you. Belonging spreads a film further than any ad spend, which is why Jonathan filled theaters for a film about dementia without a marketing war chest.What is Martin Buber’s “I and Thou” about? “I and Thou,” published in 1923, describes two ways of relating to another person. You can treat someone as an “It,” a thing to manage, a number, a problem to handle. Or you can meet them as a “Thou,” a whole person, encountered directly. Buber argued that real life is found in the “Thou,” in genuine meeting rather than use.Why do people stop watching independent films and podcasts? Because they can feel when a creator is aiming something at them instead of making something for them. The moment an audience becomes a view count or a click to convert, the work loses the sense that it was made for real people. People stay when they feel met and included, and they drift when they feel handled.ABOUT THE FILMS AND TOPIC“Human Forever” is a documentary directed by Dutch filmmaker Jonathan de Jong through SUPER7EVEN Productions. It follows the young dementia-care nurse Teun Toebes as he lives among and travels the world alongside people with dementia, and it became the most-watched human interest documentary in Dutch cinema history. The film is one piece of a larger movement that also includes Teun’s bestselling books and the Article 25 Foundation he co-founded.Jonathan de Jong is a Dutch filmmaker and author who builds socially focused stories, and the guest on Documentary First Episode 284. SUPER7EVEN Productions: https://supersevenproductions.com. Film: https://human-forever.com.Teun Toebes is a nurse, humanitarian activist, and bestselling author who has spent years living inside dementia wards around the world. https://www.teuntoebes.com.ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST: THE DEEP DIVEEach week, host Christian Taylor takes an insight from a recent Documentary First filmmaker interview and follows it through literature, philosophy, faith, and her own life. Christian is an award-winning documentary filmmaker, actor, and voice actor, and the director of “The Girl Who Wore Freedom.” The Deep Dive is built for documentary filmmakers, lovers of story, and anyone who wants to think more deeply about the work of making things.RESOURCES MENTIONED“Human Forever” (film), Jonathan de Jong, SUPER7EVEN Productions: https://human-forever.comSUPER7EVEN Productions: https://supersevenproductions.comTeun Toebes: https://www.teuntoebes.comMartin Buber, “I and Thou” (Ich und Du), 1923Documentary First Episode 284 with Jonathan de Jong: https://pod.fo/e/50bde1LISTEN AND FOLLOWListen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://podfollow.com/documentary-first Watch on YouTube: @DocumentaryFirstSUPPORT THE SHOWJoin our community on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/documentaryfirstCONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRSTAll platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1st Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

How do you fund a documentary when the whole industry says no?How do you fund a documentary without film funds, grants, or a commissioning broadcaster, and still reach a huge audience? Dutch filmmaker Jonathan de Jong did exactly that with Human Forever, the most-watched human interest documentary in Dutch cinema history. The government pulled his funding two and a half years into production, and he still finished the film, built a movement, and put it in cinemas around the world.In Episode 284 of Documentary First, Christian Taylor sits down with Jonathan de Jong, director of Human Forever and founder of SUPER7EVEN Productions, to talk about how independent filmmakers actually fund, build an audience for, get access for, and produce a documentary that people see.Jonathan's whole approach starts from one idea: build the audience before the film exists. He grew a following through a bestselling book, The Housemates, a touring theater show, and his protagonist, the young nurse Teun Toebes, before the movie ever premiered. He funds outside the traditional market by partnering with mission-aligned organizations, he earns fly-on-the-wall access by investing years of unhurried time, and he made a hard subject impossible to look away from. In his words, “we made dementia sexy.”In this episode, you'll learn:How to fund a documentary without relying on film funds, grants, or a broadcasterHow to build an audience for your film before it is releasedHow to get access to hospitals, care facilities, and other closed institutionsHow to produce a documentary across multiple countriesWhy Jonathan approaches every film as a product, not only a passion projectHow partnering with mission-aligned organizations can both fund and distribute your filmThe “be Switzerland” method for directing a subject to get honest, real reactionsHow to keep a film earning and touring years after its releaseWhy treating a serious subject with warmth beats treating it as only seriousWhat the record-breaking success of Human Forever teaches about impact over viewsCHAPTERS0:00 Breaking In Without Film School5:06 Finding a Story Worth Telling7:24 Build the Audience Before Release12:21 When the Funding Fell Through15:18 You Can't Buy Happiness20:33 What Moldova Taught Him26:47 Making the Camera Invisible30:30 Directing a Neutral Protagonist37:17 How Do You Get Access?42:28 Where Does the Money Come From?47:38 He Made Dementia SexyFrequently Asked QuestionsHow do you fund a documentary without grants or film funds?Partner with mission-aligned organizations. Jonathan de Jong funds his films by teaming with social organizations, foundations, and local and national governments that care about the subject. Each contributes a smaller amount, and together they add up to a full budget. Because those partners also have large audiences, they become the film's first ambassadors, so the same partnership that funds the film also helps get it seen.How do you get access to film inside hospitals or care facilities?Invest time and build trust before the camera rolls. Jonathan spent years present without filming, and left the camera in the room so people grew used to it. Family members had to sign consent, and because his protagonist Teun Toebes was a trusted figure in dementia care, facilities welcomed the crew. Access came from relationships and patience, not from official fixers.How do you build an audience for a documentary before it comes out?Start years early and grow the audience alongside the film. Jonathan built a following through a bestselling book, a touring theater show, and social media, and he turned his protagonist into a recognized voice in the field. By the time Human Forever premiered, the audience and a network of ambassadors already existed, so the film became, in his words, the cherry on top.How do you produce a documentary in multiple countries?Work through the local community, not official fixers. Jonathan connects with people already working in the subject area, who bring in local governments and organizations to arrange permits and logistics. He keeps a small, lean crew that can move fast, and he builds a network of ambassadors in each country. That is how he filmed across eleven countries during a pandemic.DocuView Déjà VuJonathan's documentary pick is Searching for Sugar Man, which he calls one of the best documentaries ever made and a reminder of what the power of storytelling can do.Sponsored by Virgil Films EntertainmentThis episode is brought to you by Virgil Films Entertainment. With over 25 years of distribution experience, Virgil Films helps filmmakers get their work in front of audiences on every major platform. Learn more at https://www.virgilfilms.com/.About the GuestJonathan de Jong is a Dutch documentary filmmaker and the founder of SUPER7EVEN Productions. He directs socially driven films that reach big audiences, and he is best known for Human Forever, the most-watched human interest documentary in Dutch cinema history. Website: https://supersevenproductions.comSUPER7EVEN Productions is Jonathan de Jong's Netherlands-based company, making impact-driven documentaries on pressing social issues. Human Forever premiered around a 2023 G20 summit and is now used in more than 40 universities, including Yale and Oxford, with a US broadcast coming to PBS. Jonathan's next films explore strong communities and addiction.About Human Forever and Teun ToebesHuman Forever follows Teun Toebes, a young care ethicist dubbed the “Greta Thunberg of healthcare,” who moved into the closed ward of a nursing home at 21 and traveled across four continents and eleven countries to ask how we can give people living with dementia a better quality of life. Teun's book, The Housemates, was a number one bestseller in Denmark and has been translated into English, German, Italian, and Arabic. Website: https://www.teuntoebes.com.About Documentary FirstDocumentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers from Ken Burns to first-time directors. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide.Resources MentionedHuman Forever (film): https://www.teuntoebes.com/human-foreverSUPER7EVEN Productions: https://supersevenproductions.comTeun Toebes: https://www.teuntoebes.comThe Housemates, book by Teun Toebes https://septemberpublishing.org/product/the-housemates-pb/Connect With the GuestsJonathan de Jong: Instagram https://www.instagram.com/7onathandejong, LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-de-jong-07b670bTeun Toebes: Instagram https://www.instagram.com/teuntoebes, LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/teuntoebesListen and Follow Documentary FirstListen to this episode: https://podfollow.com/documentary-firstYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirstSupport the ShowPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/DocumentaryFirstConnectDocumentary First: https://linktr.ee/doc1stChristian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

Who believed in you before you could believe in yourself? In this Deep Dive, documentary filmmaker Christian Taylor makes a quiet case that we rarely overcome self-doubt on our own. Almost no one finishes anything hard alone. Someone has to see it in you first. This is a reflection on the power of belief, on the kind of encouragement that shows up right when you are ready to quit, and on how a few honest words can help a person keep going and change the whole outcome of a life.This Deep Dive grows out of Documentary First Episode 283 with Joe Amodei, the veteran film distributor who, after forty-five years of releasing other people's films, finally directed his own: Cold War in Philly. The seed is a story Joe told about his friend Morgan Spurlock, who looked at him and said, "Yes, you are," when Joe insisted he was not a director. Morgan died before filming began. Joe made the film anyway.From there, Christian follows the same pattern through her own life and through stories you already know: the producer Sandy Gordon, who told her she could tell her own story; C.S. Lewis's belief that helped J.R.R. Tolkien finish The Lord of the Rings; Emmy Werner's forty-year Kauai study on the power of one caring adult; Fred Shero and the 1976 Philadelphia Flyers; the BELIEVE sign in Ted Lasso; and the Christmas her young son Hunter talked her out of quitting The Girl Who Wore Freedom. The throughline: belief usually arrives from outside before it grows from within, it works by being repeated at the moment you want to give up, and it is something you can hand another person for the price of a sentence.In this episode, Christian explores:Why we so often cannot see in ourselves what other people can see plainlyThe difference between belief that gets you to the starting line and belief that gets you to the finishWhy encouragement has to be repeated, not announced onceHow Morgan Spurlock's belief outlived him and finished Joe Amodei's first filmWhat C.S. Lewis's encouragement had to do with Tolkien finishing The Lord of the RingsThe single factor that most helped at-risk children thrive in the forty-year Kauai studyWhat the 1976 Flyers and the BELIEVE sign in Ted Lasso have in commonThe Christmas her son Hunter believed in her when she was ready to walk away from her filmThe strange math of belief: nearly free to give, and one of the most powerful things we doTwo things to do this week: remember who believed in you, and become that person for someone elseCHAPTERS0:00 Before You Believe in Yourself2:49 Someone Has to See It First5:37 Encouragement When You Want to Quit8:34 Belief That Outlives Us11:14 How to Believe in OthersFREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONSWhy is it important to have someone believe in you?Because most of us cannot see our own potential clearly. We are too close to our own doubts. Belief from a credible person on the outside fills that gap and raises both effort and persistence, especially at the moment someone is ready to quit. Research on self-efficacy and on childhood resilience points the same way: one steady person who believes in you can change what you attempt and what you actually finish.How do you keep going when you want to quit a creative project?You borrow belief until you can make your own. Nearly everyone who finishes a hard project hits a wall where they are sure it is over. What carries people through is usually not one pep talk but someone who reminds them, again and again, that they can do it. Christian Taylor finished her documentary after her young son repeated his belief in her until she could go back to work.How do you believe in yourself when no one else does?You usually do not have to do it entirely alone. The honest move this episode offers is to remember that someone has already believed in you, even if you have forgotten them, and to borrow that belief until it becomes your own. Recall what they saw in you. And if you feel truly without support right now, become the encourager you needed: the same words that steady other people can steady you when you say them to yourself.Can one person really change your life?Yes. In Emmy Werner's forty-year Kauai study of nearly 700 children, about a third of the high-risk kids grew into capable, caring adults, and the strongest protective factor was having at least one steady adult who believed in them. One was enough. The same pattern shows up in creative work, where a single believer often decides whether a project is abandoned or finished.What does it mean that belief can outlive the believer?It means the encouragement someone gives you keeps working even after they are gone. Morgan Spurlock told Joe Amodei he could direct, then died before filming started, and Joe finished the film anyway. Fred Shero's line to the Flyers, "Win today and we'll walk together forever," names the same truth: the people who believe in us walk with us long after the moment itself has passed.ABOUT THE FILMS AND WORKS IN THIS EPISODECold War in Philly, directed by Joe Amodei (Virgil Films): the story of the night in 1976 the Philadelphia Flyers beat the Soviet Red Army. https://coldwarinphilly.comThe Girl Who Wore Freedom, directed by Christian Taylor: the documentary referenced throughout this episode.Also referenced: La La Land (2016, written and directed by Damien Chazelle); Man of La Mancha; Ted Lasso (Apple TV+); The Lord of the Rings and the friendship of J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis; Tuesdays with Morrie by Mitch Albom; and "Wind Beneath My Wings," popularized by Bette Midler.ABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRST: THE DEEP DIVEDocumentary First: The Deep Dive is the companion to Documentary First, where host Christian Taylor takes one insight from a recent conversation and follows it wherever it leads. Christian is a documentary filmmaker, actor, and voice actor, and the director of The Girl Who Wore Freedom and Heroes of Carentan.RESOURCES MENTIONEDDocumentary First Episode 283 with Joe Amodei: [add episode URL]Cold War in Philly: https://coldwarinphilly.comVirgil Films: https://virgilfilms.comEmmy Werner, the Kauai Longitudinal StudyThe Letters of J.R.R. TolkienTuesdays with Morrie, by Mitch AlbomLa La Land (2016)Man of La ManchaTed Lasso (Apple TV+)LISTEN AND FOLLOWListen on any podcast app: https://podfollow.com/documentary-firstYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirstSupport the show on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/DocumentaryFirstCONNECTDocumentary First Linktree: https://linktr.ee/doc1stChristian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor

What happens when a film distributor with more than 40 years in the business finally makes his own documentary?Joe Amodei grew up in Philadelphia watching the Flyers with his parents, sisters and brothers. From the family living room, he watched the team he still calls his heroes beat the Soviet Red Army on January 11, 1976. After decades of releasing other people's documentaries, he decided it was finally time to make his own. Cold War in Philly tells the story of that game and of the players who are still Philadelphia heroes 50 years later. Joe calls it a love letter to them.In Episode 283, Christian Taylor welcomes Joe back, this time as a first-time director. He explains how he got access to a legendary NHL team: a cousin who works with the Flyers alumni, and a man named Brad Marsh who runs the alumni group and told the players Joe was a good guy. He got the players on camera, including Ed Van Impe and Bernie Parent, who have since died.The film took two and a half years, mostly because Joe made it while running Virgil Films, a mistake he won't repeat. He kept it under $250,000, the same ceiling he gives every documentary filmmaker. It opened in Philadelphia and sold out every screening, growing from six planned screenings to 17 in July. Then Joe tells, for the first time anywhere, why the film ends with a photo of him and Morgan Spurlock. When Joe found the project, he offered it to Spurlock to direct. Spurlock turned it down and told Joe to direct it himself, and when Joe said he wasn't a director, Spurlock said, "Yes, you are." Spurlock died not long after. The episode ends on why the work is worth it: players thanking Joe in tears, and the daughter of the Flyers' broadcaster Gene Hart hearing her father call that game for the first time in 50 years.Full disclosure: since 2022, Joe's company, Virgil Films, has distributed Christian's film The Girl Who Wore Freedom, and it sponsors Documentary First, including this episode.WATCH THE FILMCold War in Philly: Flyers vs Russia 1976 is available to rent or buy on Amazon, Apple TV and Fandango at Home, with links on the film's site: https://coldwarinphilly.comIn this episode, you'll learn:How to get access to a famous team or organization through its alumni associationWhy a built-in audience helps an independent film succeedWhat to budget for a documentary, and why Joe kept his under $250,000The two things Joe says it takes to finish a film: passion and willpowerCHAPTERS0:00 Becoming a First-Time Director2:42 Where the Idea Came From5:08 How Do You Get Access?9:33 Capturing Heroes in Time13:04 Structuring the Documentary21:20 The Grind of Production28:11 Selling Out Theaters36:06 A Promise to Morgan Spurlock38:32 Was Distribution Hard?41:37 What Should a Doc Budget Be?44:48 Passion and Willpower47:38 Is Filmmaking Worth It?FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONSHow do you get access to famous people or organizations for a documentary?Go through the alumni association. Joe Amodei got access to the Philadelphia Flyers players through the team's alumni group, which handles former players' appearances. Nearly every major sports team has one, usually run by one or two people. Find that person and earn their trust, and they can open the door to the whole roster. Then be ready for separate contracts with the team, the owner and the league, which took Joe almost a year.How much does it cost to make a documentary?For an independent documentary, Joe Amodei's rule is not to spend more than $250,000, and he kept his own film, Cold War in Philly, under that line. Christian Taylor frames it as knowing what the film can realistically earn back before you set the budget, and understanding the market you are spending against. A built-in audience and disciplined spending give a documentary a real chance to earn its money back.What makes an independent film succeed now?A built-in audience, Christian Taylor says, and Joe Amodei agrees: "Always." Cold War in Philly had Flyers fans waiting for it, and its theatrical run sold out. But Joe adds a caveat: people asked him who would watch beyond Flyers fans, and he went ahead anyway. Many viewers have since told him they aren't even hockey fans. If your gut says go, he says, still think about it, but that doesn't mean you don't do it.What does it take to finish a documentary?Two things, according to Joe Amodei: passion and willpower. Passion for the story carries you through a process that will not be easy, and willpower keeps you going when the edit stalls and the work isn't moving as fast as you wanted. You owe it to your investors, your subjects and the people who gave up their time to sit for you. His advice is simple: you can't give up.What should you look for in a film distributor?Christian Taylor describes what makes Joe a distributor worth trusting: he answers calls and emails, pays his bills on time, sends the reports that are due, and is honest. She says that basic reliability is rarer than it should be in the business, and it's what separates a distributor you can trust from one you can't.DOCUVIEW DÉJÀ VU PICKSFrom the Virgil Films slate, Joe highlighted She Was Here, about the young actress from Poltergeist, and Broken Brothers, from Jeff Levine, a future Documentary First guest.SPONSORED BY VIRGIL FILMS ENTERTAINMENThttps://virgilfilms.comLISTEN AND FOLLOWListen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts: https://pod.fo/e/49a077Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirstSUPPORT THE SHOWJoin our community on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/DocumentaryFirstCONNECT WITH DOCUMENTARY FIRSTAll platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1stChristian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylorABOUT THE GUESTJoe AmodeiFounder of Virgil Films and Entertainment; director of Cold War in PhillyJoe Amodei has worked in film distribution for more than 40 years, starting in home video retail in Philadelphia. In 2000 he became president of USA Home Entertainment, and he went on to create Virgil Films and Entertainment, whose releases include Super Size Me, Restrepo, Forks Over Knives and Glen Campbell: I'll Be Me. He won a 2020 New York Emmy for The Real Bedford Falls: It's a Wonderful Life. Cold War in Philly: Flyers vs Russia 1976 is his first film as a director; he also produced it and co-wrote it with Irv Slifkin.Virgil Films on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/virgilfilmsVirgil Films on X: https://x.com/VirgilFilmsVirgil Films on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/VirgilFilmsABOUT DOCUMENTARY FIRSTDocumentary First is a weekly podcast about the people behind documentaries and how the work changed them. Host Christian Taylor, director of the award-winning The Girl Who Wore Freedom, talks with filmmakers from Ken Burns to first-time directors. Listen Notes ranks the show in the top 5% of all podcasts worldwide.THE DISTRIBUTION SERIESEpisode 128, Joe's first visit, from a video store to Super Size MeEpisode 194, five film business tipsEpisode 198, Cannes part one, the film marketEpisode 199, Cannes part two, why documentaries are hard to sellEpisode 216, getting distributed part one, who can you trustEpisode 218, getting distributed part two, distribution expensesEpisode 271, budgets, genres and building your audienceRelated: the Deep Dive on this episode, Who Believed in You First?

How do you make people care about your documentary?Facts alone rarely make an audience care. The emotional core of a documentary lives somewhere else. In this episode of Documentary First, filmmaker Christian Taylor tells the story of how she found the heartbeat her film about the Battle of Carentan was missing. It was not in the archives. It was in the memories of a man who was six years old when the war came for his town.For months, Christian’s film Heroes of Carentan felt stuck in what one WWII veteran called the “data of history,” the maps, the dates, and the military maneuvers. Everything shifted when she met Yves Marchais. In June 1944, Yves was a small boy living under German occupation in Carentan, France. This year he sent Christian thirteen letters recording what he remembered, and those letters gave the historical record a soul.It comes down to a lesson every documentary filmmaker learns the hard way: audiences do not connect to issues or information, they connect to people. Anchored by a line from Pfc. John E. Fitzgerald, a runner for Medal of Honor recipient Lt. Col. Robert Cole, this episode argues that the essence of history is not its record but its heartbeat. Yves calls his own account his “hummingbird’s share,” not the whole war, but the small, vivid pieces that passed before a child’s eyes. His story becomes a lesson in telling a big historical event through one small, personal one.In this episode, you’ll learn:Why facts and figures alone rarely move an audienceHow to find the emotional core, or heartbeat, of a documentaryWhy audiences connect to people, not to issues or informationHow to tell a big historical story through one small, personal oneWhat Pfc. John E. Fitzgerald meant when he warned that history can lose its heartbeatWhy one person’s story can carry an entire historical eventWhat the “hummingbird’s share” is, and why small memories matter more than big onesHow the Battle of Carentan looked through the eyes of a six-year-old boyHow Yves Marchais and his family survived the occupation and liberation of CarentanWhy the story a filmmaker starts with is often not the story worth tellingWhat the series Band of Brothers has to do with the real Battle of CarentanHow to know when your film has finally found its emotional coreChapters:00:00 Meeting a survivor of Carentan01:15 13 letters and Band of Brothers02:26 Life under German occupation04:01 D-Day and the kitchen sink05:27 Fleeing an empty Carentan06:59 The trench and liberation08:45 Colonel Cole and the runner10:57 The lesson: find your heartbeatFrequently Asked Questions:How do you find the emotional core of a documentary?Facts and chronology rarely move an audience on their own. The emotional core, what host Christian Taylor calls the heartbeat, usually lives in one person’s specific, lived experience rather than in the broad historical record. In this episode she describes finding it in the memories of Yves Marchais, a French civilian who was six during the Battle of Carentan, and building the film’s meaning around his point of view.How do you make an audience care about a documentary subject?Audiences connect to people far more than to issues or information. The most reliable way to make viewers care about a large subject, a war, a movement, a crisis, is to tell it through one specific person whose experience makes the bigger story personal. In this episode, Christian Taylor builds her film about the Battle of Carentan around a single child’s memories rather than the broad military record.What was the Battle of Carentan?The Battle of Carentan was a June 1944 fight for the town of Carentan in Normandy, France, a key objective linking the American forces landing at Utah and Omaha beaches. The 101st Airborne Division, including units later made famous by Band of Brothers, fought to take the town, which was liberated on June 12, 1944.Who is Yves Marchais?Yves Marchais is a French man who, as a six-year-old boy, lived through the German occupation and the 1944 liberation of Carentan. Decades later he recorded his childhood memories of the war in a series of letters, which became the emotional core of Christian Taylor’s documentary. He calls his account his “hummingbird’s share,” the small, true pieces of history he witnessed firsthand.What did Pfc. John Fitzgerald mean about history losing its heartbeat?Pfc. John E. Fitzgerald, who served as a runner for Medal of Honor recipient Lt. Col. Robert Cole, wrote that the data of history should not lose its heartbeat as it becomes information, or all that remains is the record without the essence. Christian Taylor uses that idea as the key to her film: the facts of a battle matter, but the human story is what makes people care.About the Film and the Story:Heroes of Carentan is Christian Taylor’s in-production documentary about the 1944 liberation of Carentan, Normandy, told through the people who lived it. Yves Marchais was six years old during the battle. His firsthand account of the occupation, the bombing, his family’s escape through a deserted town, and the moment of liberation forms the emotional center of the film. This episode is the second part of Christian’s story about finding that center.About Documentary First:Documentary First is a weekly podcast about the craft, business, and truth of documentary filmmaking. Host Christian Taylor is a documentary filmmaker (The Girl Who Wore Freedom), actor, voice actor, and podcast host based in the United States. Each week she explores what it takes to tell true stories that move people, through interviews with filmmakers and solo episodes drawn from her own work.Resources Mentioned:The Colonel and the Runner, by Pfc. John E. Fitzgerald (a recollection of Lt. Col. Robert G. Cole, 502nd Parachute Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne Division)Band of Brothers (Episode 3 follows the Battle of Carentan)The Girl Who Wore Freedom, Christian Taylor’s award-winning D-Day documentaryWatch or Listen to Part 1:https://pod.fo/e/4405a5Listen and Follow:Documentary First: https://podfollow.com/documentary-firstYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@documentaryfirstSupport the show on Patreon:https://www.patreon.com/c/DocumentaryFirstConnect:Documentary First on all platforms: https://linktr.ee/doc1stConnect with Christian Taylor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meetchristiantaylor