Welcome to the final episode of Clown, Interrupted with KiKi Maroon. I’ll explain in the closer why it’s the final episode, but first, let’s talk about today’s show. When I first started the podcast, I decided that a personal rule of mine would be not to have newly sober people as guests. Firstly, because the point of the show was to get advice from people who were more experienced than me on how to handle this new way of being. Secondly, it seemed dangerous. I remember how difficult my first year was; everything was so raw and confusing. I didn’t want to risk shaking up anyone’s fragile, or non existent, foundation for the sake of entertainment.  Well, I fucked up. Kind of. The Dallas Observer had an article called Straight Edge: Performers Explain How They Stay Sober While Working the Nightlife Scene. I got so excited that I reached out to the featured performers without doing research.  Podcast newbie mistake!!! I set up the session with today’s guest, Veronica Young, not knowing she was only 7 months sober. I struggled with whether or not I should cancel, but decided not to. Veronica (also known as “V”) was a party girl known for hosting and promoting concerts and standup shows around Dallas. She had a morning radio show called Hung Over with V where she and her guests talked about local music and current events, while day drinking to get over their hangovers. And that is why I didn’t cancel on her.  She quit drinking, even though it was a huge part of her public persona. I know how difficult that can be, so I really wanted to talk with her about it. Which is how, for the first time in Clown, Interrupted history, I was the one giving the guidance! We talk about being batshit crazy, going on the apology tour, her first sober gig, and a lot more. I hope you like it!  Veronica Young on Facebook Veronica Young on Twitter Veronica Young on Instagram Dallas Observer article- Straight Edge: Performers Explain How They Stay Sober While Working the Nightlife Scene The Science of How Our Minds and Our Bodies Converge in the Healing of Trauma Deep Ellum Arts Festival KiKi Maroon on Patreon KiKi Maroon on Twitter KiKi Maroon on Instagram Clown, Interrupted on Instagram If you like the podcast, please consider signing up to my Patreon. Your donation helps with the operating cost and is the easiest way to say, “thanks for making this!”  The Clown, Interrupted theme song is graciously provided by The Last Domino. You can listen to or purchase the full song HERE.

They say that the best standup is real. Yes, you need joke structure. Of course you need punchlines. But it can all feel empty if you don’t hear a real person on stage. They also say it can take years for a comic to “find their voice”. Though I conceptually understood that, I didn’t really get it. Anytime I was on stage, I used an over the top performance voice. Which makes sense. I hosted burlesque shows for years before doing standup. And BURLESQUE IS BIG! IT’S SHOWMANSHIP! But in a comedy club setting, that’s too big, too loud, and very weird.  I felt kind of dumb for taking so long to realize that, but it makes sense. How could I show them the real me when I didn’t know who that was? I only started to feel like a person in the last year, so now I’m finally being that real person on stage.  Someone who is a big part of that is today’s guest- Kurtis Matthews. Kurtis is the owner and a teacher at the San Francisco Comedy College. He’s been helping develop comedians for over 2 decades. He is also an amazing standup who performs, along with other comics, in his show- The Addicts Comedy Tour.  I met Kurtis when that tour came though Houston. It was an evening of jokes and stories about life, love, jail, rehab, and recovery. I spent all night either laughing hysterically or trying not to cry. I laughed because the stories were hilarious. I wanted to cry because I had never heard someone else repeat all the crazy shit in my head.  I hadn’t been that affected by a performance since first seeing Bill Hicks. I’m not going to go into that story again, I’ve talked about it ad nauseam on the podcast. But that’s how deeply that show affected me.  So, it was insane, beautiful, and weird to learn that not only were Kurtis and Bill friends, they even had the same AA sponsor! That’s crazy! Life is bananas! Kurtis has since become a friend and a mentor. I recorded this on a visit to San Francisco. We recorded in the classroom/venue after one of his beginner comedy classes. I hope you enjoy it! Kurtis Matthews on stage The Addicts Comedy Tour Kurtis Matthews on Instagram San Francisco Comedy College American: The Bill Hicks Story Russel Brand’s book ‘Recovery’ How To Break The Pattern of Love Addiction on Psychology Today Love Addiction 101 on Addiction.com KiKi Maroon on Patreon KiKi Maroon on Twitter KiKi Maroon on Instagram Clown, Interrupted on Instagram If you like the podcast, please consider signing up to my Patreon. Your donation helps with the operating cost and is the easiest way to say, “thanks for making this!”  The Clown, Interrupted theme song is graciously provided by The Last Domino. You can listen to or purchase the full song HERE. FULL TRANSCRIPT KiKi Maroon: Hi! Welcome back to Clown, Interrupted with KiKi Maroon – that’s me! So, everyone says the best stand-up is real. Yes, you need joke structure; of course you need punchlines. But it can feel kind of empty if you don’t hear the real person on stage. They say that it can take years for a comic to “find their voice.” And while I conceptually understood that, I didn’t really get it. I thought, “I know my voice. This is my voice!” Haha. But when I would go on stage, it would be my “PERFORMANCE VOICE!” Which makes sense. I hosted burlesque shows way before I did stand-up. And burlesque – is big! It’s showmanship! It took years to develop into a great burlesque emcee. You know, to really learn how to shake the audience up! So when I started stand-up, that was the only way I knew how to be on stage, which in a comedy club setting, comes off as too big, too loud, and very weird! Haha. For a long time, I thought that was my voice, but it wasn’t. This is my voice. I’m using it. I’m using it right now. Haha. That was my shield, a buffer between the audience and the real me. And while I feel kind of dumb for it taking so long to realize that, it makes sense. How could I show them the real me when I didn’t even know who that person was? This last year, I finally started to feel like a real person and I’m learning how to be that person on stage. Someone who’s a big part of that is today’s guest, Kurtis Matthews. Kurtis is the owner and teacher at the San Francisco Comedy College. He’s been helping stand-ups develop for more than two decades. But more importantly to me, Kurtis is also a hilarious stand-up himself, who performs with other comics in his show- The Addicts Comedy Tour. I met Kurtis when that tour came through Houston. I listened to their stories about life, love, jail, rehab, and recovery. I watched the entire thing either laughing my head off or trying not to cry. Not because the stories were sad, they weren’t! They were hilarious! I wanted to cry because I’d never heard someone else repeat all the crazy shit in my head. I was sitting in this jam-packed audience, but it felt like they were talking to me, about me. Not only about how fucked up I was, but about how healthy I could be, if I… you know… just stuck with it. I hadn’t been that affected by a performance since first seeing Bill Hicks. I’m not going to go into that story again, because I’ve talked about it ad nauseum on this podcast, but that’s how deeply this show affected me. So it was insane and beautiful and weird to learn that not only were Kurtis and Bill friends, they even had the same A.A. sponsor! That’s crazy. If I had the rights to it, this would be the part where I splice in Bill’s joke about God fucking with people – “Haha I’m a prankster God. I am killing me.” Haha.  That’s how this feels. Life is bananas and God is fucking with me.  Since then, Kurtis has become a good friend and a mentor. I recorded this on a visit to San Francisco. I sat in on his beginner stand-up class, which I have to be honest, was kind of painful. But it did make me feel proud about how far I’ve come as a comic because I remember feeling that cringy. We recorded in the classroom/venue afterwards, so we started off by talking about one student whose set was particularly brutal. I hope you enjoy it! Here’s my talk with Kurtis Matthews. [Theme song: “Last Call” provided by The Last Domino] Kurtis Matthews: It wasn’t really the misogyny that bothered me. It was almost his racism. I know he was trying to tie it into his bit… KiKi Maroon: Yeah, he was trying to crowd work into his setup.  Kurtis Matthews: This was one of the hardest things I’ve watched in a long time. Just because, consistently, none of them did any work. KiKi Maroon: Do I have to cut all this out since you’re bitching about this? Kurtis Matthews: You can do whatever you want.  KiKi Maroon: Okay. I just wanted to know.  Kurtis Matthews: You’re my friend, KiKi. KiKi Maroon: You’re my friend too, but if I’m going to put this online, I don’t know if I should cut this part out.  Kurtis Matthews: You do whatever you want. If it’s interesting and you want to put it online, you put it online. KiKi Maroon: It is interesting. So, hey, we’re talking to Kurtis! Haha. Kurtis Matthews: Yeah,  you are. KiKi Maroon: How long have you had the comedy school? What’s it called again? The Comedy? Kurtis Matthews: You’re cute.  KiKi Maroon: College? Kurtis Matthews: San Francisco Comedy College.  KiKi Maroon: How long have you had this?  Kurtis Matthews: Since ‘99 in San Francisco. We’re the longest-running stand-up school in the Bay Area. We’re also the most attended in America. You know, what’s interesting is, people keep showing up and I have multiple classes and people just like the community here. Because I tend to weed out the jackasses since I’m a bit of a jackass. KiKi Maroon: Haha I noticed how very honest you were to them, saying, “This is bad, this is very bad.” And I appreciate that. Kurtis Matthews: I normally don’t do that, but there was part of me tonight where I was thinking, “If I never see you again, good, because you have so much work to do.”  KiKi Maroon: I appreciate your honesty. As somebody who has previously taken comedy classes, I like the idea that, “Oh okay, the money is not just for you to jack me off and tell me I’m going to be successful,” You’re not full of shit; you’re actually helping them. Kurtis Matthews: Yeah. I mean, honestly, I have so many students that, you know, it’s not that I can afford to lose any, but I’m here to give them honest feedback and to provide a community for them. Give them direction, being a professional comic since 1984. KiKi Maroon: That’s when I was born! Kurtis Matthews: Yeah? I’m not gonna… Ugh okay. Haha. KiKi Maroon: I’m just saying! Kurtis Matthews: That’s the year I got sober!  KiKi Maroon: Really?  Kurtis Matthews: Oh man!  KiKi Maroon: You got sober the year I was born?! Kurtis Matthews: So you represent my sobriety!  KiKi Maroon: Aww, how fun Kurtis Matthews: Man, I knew there was something real special about you. KiKi Maroon: Wait, you got sober the same year you started comedy? Kurtis Matthews: No, actually I kind of started in ‘82. You had multiple questions there. You asked about the comedy college…  KiKi Maroon: There’s so much now going on. Kurtis Matthews: Okay. Let’s go back to the comedy college. We started it in ‘99. Now, a lot of comedy schools in LA or New York or whatever, they get excited when they have 15 kids. I have 80 to 100. KiKi Maroon: Jesus Christ! Kurtis Matthews: And that’s advanced classes, one-on-one students, you know… KiKi Maroon: So then does all of San Francisco comedy come here, basically? That’s a lot of people!  Kurtis Matthews: No, not all of comedy. There are still people who want to go out and get feedback from career open mic-ers or tell themselves they’re great. Or they’re working comics. You know… I’m on the fence with free gigs. I’ve always said if an audience pays even $1 and shows some sort of respect for stand-up, it’s less likely that they’re going to heckle. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Kurtis Matthews: Less likely that they’re going to be mean to people. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, there’s value.. Kurtis Matthews: So, something. If you could charge $1 or $2, it’s better. “Oh, the show’s free? How desperate is that?” It’s just sad going into it, like, “I’m walking into this free thing. It’s going to be God-awful.” KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Nobody wants what nobody wants.  Kurtis Matthews: It’s almost as if some of these comedians nowadays are training the audience not to value stand-up or pay for it. How is anybody going to make a living if stand-up is always free? If you’re a customer and you watch a whole bunch of free shows, why are you going to come back in week five and pay $25? You know? You’re not, because it’s been free the whole time. KiKi Maroon: So that’s actually something I’m learning now that I’m doing the shows in Dallas. I found out through one of the comics that I booked for my show- he was saying that they are not allowed to do or promote bar shows once they’re on Hyena’s roster, because Hyena’s is the club, I don’t know if you’ve ever worked there [in the Dallas area]. Hyena’s is the comedy club there. They have Hyena’s in Dallas, Plano, and Fort Worth. All within driving distance of each other. Kurtis Matthews: Actually, Mark Lundholm and I, for the Addicts Comedy Tour, we do Hyena’s. That Randy guy over there? KiKi Maroon:  Yeah, Randy!  Kurtis Matthews: Randy Butler (the owner). KiKi Maroon:  I have not met him, but I hear a lot about him.  Kurtis Matthews: He’s a good guy. KiKi Maroon: What they were saying is that, if you’re on Hyena’s roster, they don’t want you doing all the free bar shows in town. Because why the fuck would somebody then pay to come see you? Kurtis Matthews: That’s true. With comedy clubs, if they’re good enough and the stage time’s good enough, that makes sense to the comic. But it depends on how big the market is. What I find here in San Francisco is that there’s no allegiance. So you know, some guy that’s going to work over at “Hacky Schmuck’s Handgun and Hard Liquor night” doesn’t care if he goes and then works, “Jenny’s Handgun and Hard Liquor night.” Then he goes over and works “Bimbo’s Hard Liquor and Handgun.” KiKi Maroon: Haha. Yeah. Kurtis Matthews: I mean the audience – if you have a draw – they’re split all over the place.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Kurtis Matthews: So what’s your allegiance to? So I suppose the smartest move if you’re a new comic is to have your own show and invite your fan base into that. If that’s the case, though, you’ll love this as a solution: if you have a fan base already, why are you going to a club? Why are you on another show? Set up a stage and a microphone in your garage and charge your friends 10 bucks.  KiKi Maroon: That’s terrible advice. Kurtis Matthews: No, it isn’t!  KiKi Maroon: No, this is terrible advice that you are giving the audience!  Kurtis Matthews: No it isn’t, because they’re coming to see you. KiKi Maroon: Because club work is different.   Kurtis Matthews: No it isn’t. KiKi Maroon: Say you have a fan base, but you only have 25 minutes. You do the club work to feature or host, to build the time to get to headlining shows. Kurtis Matthews: No.  KiKi Maroon: That’s terrible advice. Kurtis Matthews: Well, I’m saying there might be times when you do that, but ultimately at the end of the day, in all of comedy right now, it’s about draw.  KiKi Maroon: That is true.  Kurtis Matthews: So I love when a comedian’s going, “I’m working very originally.” That’s not going to put butts in the seats!  KiKi Maroon: Who says that? Haha. Kurtis Matthews: No, I know. I’m just saying all these people are like, “Oh, I heard a joke at another comic’s show.” Nobody cares! Nobody. Carlos Mencia – god bless him – he’s still working. And he’s still got an audience base.  KiKi Maroon: Does he? Okay. Kurtis Matthews: And from what I’ve heard, from what I’ve heard, he’s stolen jokes.  KiKi Maroon: Haha, yes, I’ve heard that as well.  Kurtis Matthews: I’m not telling people to steal jokes.  KiKi Maroon: No. Kurtis Matthews: What I am saying though is…   KiKi Maroon: I’m concerned, because you’re doing “politician hand” while you’re talking right now. Haha.  Kurtis Matthews: No, I’m telling people and I’m telling you, it’s more important to have people that will pay to come see you than it is to have a great act.  KiKi Maroon: Okay. Hey, let’s back up.  Kurtis Matthews: No, you’re the one that took me down this path.  KiKi Maroon: I understand, but I’m controlling the path now. So let’s back up.  Kurtis Matthews: If I have a fan base…  KiKi Maroon: How long have you done comedy?  Kurtis Matthews: Come to my garage. KiKi Maroon: Oh my god! You are experienced enough to be teaching this class. So how long have you been doing comedy? Let’s back up. Kurtis Matthews: Since 1984. When you were born.  KiKi Maroon: Okay, I thought you said ‘82.  Kurtis Matthews: No, ‘82. Yeah. I started in ‘82, but I was drunk.  KiKi Maroon: So you don’t count that?  Kurtis Matthews: No, I don’t count it at all. I mean, I went back to my very first times on stage at the Comedy Store in Hollywood. I go back and listen to those sets and I was just loud. You know, when you’re drunk, you think you’re doing great…  KiKi Maroon: Yes. Kurtis Matthews: But you’re not.  KiKi Maroon: I know all about that. Kurtis Matthews: You’re just loud. I listened to those tapes and they scared me.  KiKi Maroon: You still have your tapes from back when you were performing drunk? Kurtis Matthews: Somewhere. I’ve got hundreds of tapes.  KiKi Maroon: Oh wow Kurtis Matthews: We taped everything back in the day. We had those little things that look like bricks with the cassette in it. So yeah, I have a bunch of tapes lying around somewhere. I think they’re in storage. KiKi Maroon: Okay. But you were so drunk. You don’t count it. What kind of a drinker were you? Kurtis Matthews: I thought I was classy. I was pre-law in college and so I thought I was classy. I’d drink gin and tonics and martinis. My dad liked martinis. My dad was a normal drinker. I was a mess.  KiKi Maroon:  Oh, really? Kurtis Matthews: Yeah.  KiKi Maroon: So it’s not in the family? Kurtis Matthews: I tried to drink classy stuff. KiKi Maroon: But I mean, did you black out every day? Were you a day drinker? Kurtis Matthews: I didn’t black out, but I got to the place where every time I drank, I had to drink til I passed out. I couldn’t just stop.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Kurtis Matthews: You know, once I started drinking, my drinking was only over when I went to sleep.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. I understand that.  Kurtis Matthews: I think I might have blacked out. People told me I blacked out before. But it wasn’t like an ongoing thing. It may have happened, once or twice. It’s really scary. If you black out, stop drinking. Geez Louise. KiKi Maroon: I didn’t black out at first. I actually thought girls who said they blacked out were liars and just wanted an excuse to say that they didn’t remember what happened.  Kurtis Matthews: Haha. That’s funny. KiKi Maroon: And I was like, “That fucking lying bitch.”  Kurtis Matthews: Well, maybe some of them did. KiKi Maroon: And, well, that’s the thing. Then I became a blackout drunk. Something happened- probably all the alcohol. And I just started blacking out all the time. And because I drank until I couldn’t anymore, I was blacking out every day for years. It was scary every single morning because I didn’t remember anything. I had that, “Oh God, what happened last night?” panic. Checking my phone, looking for the texts, doing the whole thing. And now I just can’t even imagine that. That’s terrifying. Why the fuck would I live in that space? Kurtis Matthews: It is terrifying. Yeah. Well, that’s how crazy we are where, you know, you forget whole blocks of time and bad things happen. I was talking to a kid the other day and he told me that he said he would drink and his body would go, “Let’s shut down. Let’s lay down.” And his mind was like, “No, we’ve got a million things to do.” And so, yeah, he did all sorts of stuff blacked out, you know? KiKi Maroon: So what made you quit then? Kurtis Matthews: Car accident, mostly.  KiKi Maroon: Oh yes! We talked about this. We both had car accidents! Kurtis Matthews: I know! My car accident was in ‘84. Probably at the same time you were being born. KiKi Maroon: Oh! If you killed someone, maybe I was their reincarnation. Kurtis Matthews: Oh my god, and you’re my daughter! KiKi Maroon: Oh! Or I’m coming back for revenge! Kurtis Matthews: That’s so great! Either way, I’m in. Okay. Why did I quit? My life was not… I was not happy. Here’s my story.  KiKi Maroon: Tell me your story. Kurtis Matthews: Okay. If you want. I mean, the thing that I’m the most happy about is- I drank early. I burned out early. And I was done. Some people, their whole lives, they drink. They’re alcoholics and their life is not very good. And it’s up and down, it’s a roller coaster. Or they don’t get sober until late in life. For me, I started drinking at 16.  KiKi Maroon: Oh wow! Kurtis Matthews: It was mostly killing the pain of a relationship. The love addiction stuff, we can talk about on some other show. KiKi Maroon: Oh fuck yeah. I can have a whole conversation with you about that. Kurtis Matthews: That was one of the huge issues that drove me to the alcohol when I was 16. I drank at 16, 17, 18; it got worse. I was drinking every weekend and passing out. Then I was drinking every third day. And then it got to the place where I had to drink every day. And then June 20, 1984, I crashed a car. I almost killed a car full of girls.  KiKi Maroon: Oh my god! Kurtis Matthews: Almost killed myself…   KiKi Maroon: Did you crash into the car?  Kurtis Matthews: No, I went by the back end of the car and hit a stone wall. But as I was sliding into the intersection, I had that moment where I thought I was going to die. And then, somehow…  KiKi Maroon: Because the accident was so jarring, did it sober you up immediately? Kurtis Matthews: Well, as I slid through, I had that weird moment of clarity. Some people talk about, “ I felt like there was this weird bubble around me and that I’d be okay.” If I go back to those moments, I thought I was going to die, then I felt like I’d be okay. And it all happened within a second to two seconds. Then I hit the wall and I was wearing my seatbelt. I bounced my head off the steering wheel, fell into the gutter. San Diego Sherriffs, god bless them! They showed up and said, “You want to ride in the police car or the ambulance?” And, I realized that I was beat. I had accepted that I was beat.  I came so close to killing those girls, and I came so close to killing myself, that there was some part of me that really went, “I can’t do this.” I mean, I really met myself. I’m powerless over this, I don’t know what I’m going to do. Even if I had continued to drink, the state of California stepped in and said, “You’re done.” You know what I mean? And I’m not going to fight the state and I’m not going to be in denial. My first year, I had alcohol school and everybody’s in denial when they first get there. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Kurtis Matthews: “Oh, this happens to everybody,” you know? KiKi Maroon: It’s the worst. Kurtis Matthews: But it was the easiest thing for me in my first year. Just act “as if”.  KiKi Maroon: You had to go for a full year? I only had… I don’t even know what it was… maybe a four week course. Kurtis Matthews: Well, look at you and look at me! No,  I’m kidding. No, I mean, this was my second one. KiKi Maroon: Oh, it was your second one? Kurtis Matthews: Yeah, it was my second time within two years. Because my alcoholism was… in ‘82, I got busted for drunk driving on the westside of Los Angeles.  But there was no accident. ‘84 was the big accident. So obviously things were going awry.    KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Kurtis Matthews: So yeah, I had a year of alcohol school, but what made it easy was I acted as if I was an alcoholic. I go, “Okay, you want to call me an alcoholic? That’s not such a shameful thing. I’m going to act like I am.” So when I started acting like I was, I started hearing things that sounded familiar to me. So instead of fighting it… I don’t know why people say,  “I don’t want to be considered an alcoholic.”  Why? I mean, there’s worse things about you, you know what I mean? It’s like saying, “Oh, I don’t want to be a diabetic.” Well, you are! KiKi Maroon: As somebody who fought it… haha. I know I can say that it seemed like labelling myself as weak. And so I didn’t want to use that word because “it’s not cool and hip” and all that stuff. “It’s saying that I’m a loser, and I’m not a loser!” So that’s what it was for me. Kurtis Matthews: No, I got, I got you. And there are people that go, “Well, if you just buckle down, just stop doing it.” We have a compulsion of the mind. We have a spiritual deficit and a compulsion of the mind; it’s a disease. We are wired differently. It’s like you and I were talking about earlier today, “Hey, look- that cop’s got a gun. Let’s take it!” Normal people don’t think like that! KiKi Maroon: Hahaha! I want to just clarify that we did not say that about a cop that was in front of us. Kurtis Matthews: Well… not about a specific cop. KiKi Maroon: We were talking about how that is a thought that we have both had. Kurtis Matthews: Right. Crazy people have that thought, because we are ill! So once you go, “It’s not that I’m weak, it’s because I’m ill.” It’s like, you know, what kind of idiot would walk around and go, “I don’t have the flu (cough). I don’t have the flu (cough). I don’t have the flu (cough).”  KiKi Maroon: Lots of people do that.  Kurtis Matthews: That’s ridiculous.  KiKi Maroon: Then they still go to work.  Kurtis Matthews: Then they get everybody infected and they’re terrible.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Kurtis Matthews: So I’m just saying kids, if you have herpes, tell someone. Hahaha What? What am I saying?  KiKi Maroon: Haha! Kurtis Matthews: Anyway, you know what I mean? To me, it wasn’t weakness. It was power. It’s like, “I got this thing and I want to deal with it.” KiKi Maroon: I agree. But I think that’s a lot of clarity for you to have that early in. Kurtis Matthews: I was scared crapless. The whole thing. I mean, when people say to me, “Hey, don’t you miss drinking?” No, because drinking to me, one Budweiser, equals screaming girls, car crash, smell of gasoline, ambulance, whatever. So I don’t sit there and go, “It would be nice to have a beer with friends.” No, it wouldn’t be nice. It would be nice not to run into a car full of girls and kill myself and scare the crap out of my parents and lose my girlfriend and total a $25,000 car. KiKi Maroon: Wait, wait. Okay. Sorry, backing up. Because we’ve talked about this codependent thing, right? Do you think it hit you so hard because, and you’ve said this over and over again, because of those girls? Like,  if you had just hurt yourself or just hit the car or, do you think you would have still reached that conclusion as fast? Or is it that other people were involved, so that mattered in a different way? Does that make sense? Am I making sense? Kurtis Matthews: Yeah, no, it does. And… (fake crying)… I think we’ve had a significant breakthrough.  KiKi Maroon: Jesus Christ, Kurtis.  Kurtis Matthews: No, I will tell you. No, it wasn’t that. A lot of times when people go back and think about horrible things they did, in their mind, they make it black and white. That’s still color for me. You know what I mean? I can still see it. I still dream about it. It’s in color. The sound of the metal. The right rear tire of my car flew off when I hit a curb. The sound of the metal dragging across the concrete, the sound of the car hitting the center divider, the sound of the metal crushing as I hit the stone wall, the sound of the sirens, and then those girls screaming. So those girls were just part of the whole stereophonic thing. But yeah, I mean obviously the most significant portion was that I put myself at risk. My partying and having a good time was more important than my life.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Kurtis Matthews: And there’s more, you know. It gets worse before it gets better. So after I went to the hospital, the sheriff came in and ultimately took my blood test. Although I fought him, you know.  KiKi Maroon: Oh yeah, me too. Kurtis Matthews: So the guy threatened to break my arm and I’m like, “Whatever, I’m drunk.” And he bends it all the way so it’s about to snap. That’s actually legal, according to the Supreme Court. So they came in and they took my blood. And I remember sneaking out of the emergency room.  KiKi Maroon:  Are you serious?! Kurtis Matthews: I’m telling you the whole story. I walked down these railroad tracks for about two miles back to my house. I was alone. Now imagine this: drunk driving accident, I got blood all over my clothes.   I’ve just been busted. I wander out when the cops aren’t looking. I wander home on these railroad tracks. I get to my house, right? My girlfriend at the time was worried about me. I looked at the look in her in the eyes because I had just totaled her car. Just totaled her car. So I looked at her, I laid down and I’m like, “Did that just happen?” About a half an hour later, it was like two in the morning, my mom and dad show up and they’re both crying. So, I’m sitting in bed and I finally saw me through my mother’s eyes. And I couldn’t take it. They just wanted so much for me. So that hurt. So I mean, that’s how it affects other people. Because there are people who love you.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Kurtis Matthews: There are people who love you. And I disappointed my mom. That’s what killed me the most. You know, my dad kind of knew I had trouble, but he loved me anyway. But my mom, she was disappointed. And at the same time, I scared them. “Hey, guess what? Your son has been in a drunk driving accident. He’s in the hospital.” They were glad I was alive, but I had to live to see that look of terror as well as disappointment and sadness. And so that’s what I mean about other people. You know, spouses and brothers and sisters and moms and dads and the people we work with. KiKi Maroon: Yeah.  Kurtis Matthews: So when you think, “I’m just going to party,” well… you’re taking all those people with you. Every time you go somewhere. And sure, maybe you hate your family. Maybe you got friends who want to see you alive. Maybe you just show up and be nice to yourself so other people can show up and be nice to you too. Maybe be a decent part of the society. Maybe be a good person and be part of the solution. I don’t know. But yeah, that was it. June 20, 1984. That’s what stopped me. I happily went to drug and alcohol school. I happily went to the meetings that the court told me to go to. I happily took direction from all these great people that I met. About six months in, I went on stage again. Because I go, “I got a voice and I’m not afraid. After that, I’m not afraid of anything.” KiKi Maroon: Okay. So you took that six months, you weren’t on stage. Were you worried about being in bars after? Or were you so confident that it didn’t matter? Kurtis Matthews: No, honestly, I keep telling people this – it’s like being a diabetic and watching people eat cake at a birthday party. You don’t sit there and go, “Oh I really want that cake.” No, you’re like, “That cake would kill me. I’m glad you can enjoy that cake. And it looks like a nice cake. Hope you’re having a good time with it. But I know that cake.” Give me a slice of cake and then there’s sirens and metal and mom crying and everything. So, no, it never did. I did my whole career sober. 35 years. KiKi Maroon: Well you said you had two years before. Haha. Kurtis Matthews: I wouldn’t call that my career. That was just me doing open mics. I was smart though. I went to a comedy class. I studied with Greg Dean, who was a great comedy teacher.  KiKi Maroon: Oh! I have his book.  Kurtis Matthews: Yeah?  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Kurtis Matthews: Well that’s who taught me to teach! KiKi Maroon:  Oh, wow! That’s cool. Kurtis Matthews: So we’re kind of the grandbabies of Greg Dean here at San Francisco Comedy College. Yeah, he’s a good guy. So anyway, I studied with him, because before that I was drunk and yelling at the Comedy Store.  KiKi Maroon: So you didn’t have any issues going up sober? Kurtis Matthews:  Nope. KiKi Maroon: So many people I talk to had no problems with it. And that’s so funny to me because I thought that was going to be the theme of this show. I was starting the podcast wanting to know, “What’s it like transitioning into a sober career?” And many people are like, “No, that wasn’t a problem.”  Which is great! It’s just interesting to me. Kurtis Matthews: Have you ever, I don’t know. This is cumbersome; it’s cumbersome analogy and metaphor night, but you know, it’s almost like watching Tommy Lee having sex with Pamela Anderson and giving her hepatitis. You don’t sit there and go, “I want some of that.” Every time I see people drinking, I’m going, “You’re hepping yourself.” You know what I mean? “Hep it up!”  KiKi Maroon: Hahaha! I don’t understand that one at all. Kurtis Matthews: Yeah you do.  KiKi Maroon: No I don’t. Haha. Kurtis Matthews: First of all, Tommy Lee gave Pamela Anderson hepatitis. Right?  KiKi Maroon: No, I get that. Kurtis Matthews: So when they had sex…   KiKi Maroon: I understand that. Kurtis Matthews: …it’s possible that he gave it to her then.  KiKi Maroon: Yes, yes I understand that. Kurtis Matthews: Right. So, what I’m saying is, watching people drink, I’m like, “You’re just making yourself sick.” I don’t think, “Ooh, I wish I could make myself sick.” KiKi Maroon: I get that now. But what I’m saying is…  Kurtis Matthews: I never wanted Tommy Lee in me. That’s what I’m saying. KiKi Maroon: Hahaha ok. While you were in the middle of it, that you had no fear to go on stage is interesting to me, because I did not experience that. That is something I find interesting. Kurtis Matthews: Okay. All right. Well, that’s you. I’m me, you know? KiKi Maroon:  Yes, you’re you, and I’m trying to figure it out! Kurtis Matthews: I just have a stronger, higher power that loves me more than yours.  KiKi Maroon: HAHA! Kurtis Matthews: Anyway, no, I’m telling you because the crash was so horrendous, I never really put it together that people were drinking in front of me. Never really put it together. KiKi Maroon: Backing up. You had a sponsor who was also a comic, right?  Kurtis Matthews: That was my second sponsor. Yes. KiKi Maroon: The second sponsor was also a comic. Okay. Did you know him when you first quit drinking or meet him afterwards? Kurtis Matthews: I think it was ‘87. KiKi Maroon: Oh, so you were already deep. Kurtis Matthews: Here’s the deal: Texas; and this is what’s so great about Texas and my love for Houston, because I’ve got nothing but love for Houston.    KiKi Maroon: Thank you. Kurtis Matthews: It’s not like you created Houston.  KiKi Maroon:  But I can thank you for loving it as much as I do. Kurtis Matthews: Okay. You’re welcome. Y’all are welcome. There you go. My first week on the road, I worked with Bill Hicks, which was crazy! Hicks was from Houston and I went, “There must be something cool happening down in Houston.” KiKi Maroon: And you knew him in LA or San Francisco?   Kurtis Matthews: When I first went on the road, my first week on the road, I got booked opening for Bill Hicks. KiKi Maroon: Okay, so he didn’t ask for you, you got booked through an agent? KiKi Maroon: Yeah. KiKi Maroon: Okay. Kurtis Matthews: I worked with him for two weeks and I told the booking agent, I said, “Cancel the other tours I’m going on and let me stay with this guy” because I wanted to watch him. KiKi Maroon: Really? Kurtis Matthews: So yeah, I hung out with Bill and we became instant friends. We were pals. We hung out for a whole month and did crappy gigs. I watched him do one-nighters where people didn’t get him and stuff like that. But I knew there was something, because I’d seen a bunch of LA comics who were trying to get sitcoms and be, you know, the happy slappy guy. And then I see a guy that’s got a real opinion and real content and is an amazing performer. And I go, “I’ve got to hang out with this guy. I don’t know what he’s got, but I want some of it.” So, Bill and I talked about Houston, I go, “I bet it’s a cool place.” He gave me the phone numbers of bookers in Houston and said, “I will help you get into Houston with some of these bookers.” I went down and I worked for the Menzels, who owned the Comedy Workshop (a popular Houston comedy club in the 1980s). So I went down there and I met Hicks and Andy Huggins and all of those guys that were the Texas Outlaw Comics. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Kurtis Matthews: And I thought, “These guys are really cool.” That’s when they called it “third coast comedy.” There was LA, there was New York, and there was Houston. What’s interesting is, even though I’m in San Francisco, San Francisco always tried to promote itself as being a comedy place. And yeah, a lot of decent people came through here, but decent people came through here and then went on made it in Los Angeles or in New York. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Kurtis Matthews: Even though there are a bunch of clubs here, it’s always kinda been a B minus market. But that’s why I like it. This is probably the best place in the country now for new talent comics, but for established comedy? No. Yeah, there were clubs back in the day, but you’d be hard-pressed to name more than four or five people that make you go, “Oh, that just changed the world!”  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Kurtis Matthews: But Houston was one of those places. Bill Hicks was there and Sam Kinison was from there. You know Jimmy Pineapple?  KiKi Maroon: Yeah, Jimmy Pineapple! Kurtis Matthews: Anyway, I met all of these guys and they just took me in. They were really nice to me. They were like, “Hey, come on down here!” And I just loved the audiences in Texas. It was a great place! So Houston became, even though I was an LA comic, Houston became this place that… it was such a cool workshop. And so I always had love for Houston. Still do.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Kurtis Matthews: Always love going back down there. I like Texas people. I like you.  KiKi Maroon: I like you too. Kurtis Matthews: I like you back. Well, I’m a California guy. I’m an LA comic, but Texas became a normal route and I learned a lot down there. Anyway, I met my sponsor. Right. That’s what you’re asking. James Vernon. I can say his name now because he’s gone to the great beyond. KiKi Maroon: Oh, you’re not supposed to say your sponsors’ names when they’re alive? Kurtis Matthews: I don’t think you should. I don’t know what the rules are, but I’m not blowing anybody’s anonymity.  James is on the other side.  KiKi Maroon: Okay.    Kurtis Matthews: And so James was sponsoring me and Hicks. So we were his babies. Bill and I would talk all the time about trying to get well. KiKi Maroon: And you were sober before Bill, right? Kurtis Matthews: I was. What was so great about Bill was he said things like, “I just want to experience everything there is to experience.” You know, I think part of him subconsciously knew he wasn’t here for a long time, which is weird. I mean, I can’t prove that. KiKi Maroon: I actually had a similar theory, because it was weird to watch him be like he was, I’m older than he was! He seemed so much more experienced. Kurtis Matthews: Yeah. Well, he read all the time. He read everything he’d get his hands on. But that story about him saying, “Someday, you’re going to find me with an upside down cross on the left side of my body.” You know what I mean? KiKi Maroon: No I don’t. Kurtis Matthews: Yeah. He talked about being killed by God or something. It was weird, and then he got pancreatic cancer on the left side. So, you know… ask Huggins about that. KiKi Maroon: Wow. I will, thank you. Kurtis Matthews: But Bill said to me, he goes, “This sobriety thingy, man, that thing you’re doing. That’s like an altered state, man. What’s that all about?” And he got interested in it. I don’t necessarily know if he was totally committed to being sober. He knew he had a coke problem. He knew he had an alcohol problem. But I just think he thought, “What’s on the other side, man? What are you doing? Because you seem so happy in sobriety.” And so yeah, James Vernon came in and helped us both. And what was so great was that because Bill sobered up, he was able to get those last three albums out. You know, Revelations and some of the other stuff.  KiKi Maroon: So good. Kurtis Matthews: Because he knew he was dying and he wanted to dump everything. That’s why he was fearless on stage too and kept doing new material. So yeah, I was happy to know Bill. He and I were buddies. We were sponsees of Vernon’s. Not that I belong to any anonymous group, but we were sponsees. KiKi Maroon: That’s interesting to me about that, he just wanted to experience everything. I’ve said before that I “Madonna”. All the time. I’ve had so many different personalities and names.  Kurtis Matthews: That’s creepy. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, it’s kind of creepy, but I’ve gone through so many things. I’ll go a couple of years and be like, “I don’t like this anymore. I’m gonna try this other thing.” I didn’t think sobriety was going to be one of them but it is now. But even when I was like deep in the crazy and really deciding that I’m going to let the id take over and spiral out, even then I actually had these journals where I was writing things like, “It’s fine that I’m spiraling out because I just want to be a ‘connoisseur of life.’” That’s what I called it, like, “I just want to try all the things. This fucked up shit is just one of the many things I want to try.” I was deluding myself into thinking it was okay that I was spiraling out, because I knew I was spiraling out. I told myself I was choosing to spiral out. As an experience that I just wanted to try. Kurtis Matthews: I got you. I mean, you hear Bill’s, “It’s Just a Ride,” piece. It’s like, “ life is this amusement park. What can I try?” You know, what’s interesting? This is the only regret I have with Bill. When he got sick, he didn’t tell any of us. Because I remember he was in Seattle and I said, “Hey, let’s hang out.” I was doing some other gigs in Seattle and he’s in the car and says, “Hey man, my back hurts.” And I’m like, you know, “That’ll be fine.” Because we’re young. We’re not going to die. Then I found out later, he had pancreatic cancer, which he didn’t tell us about. But also, because I was protecting my sobriety, when he went on those last acid trips he took, I just thought he had slipped. I just thought he went out. So when in my head I go, “Bill is now dangerous to me because he slipped.” But if he had told me…  if he had told me, “Yeah man, I don’t have long. And I want to do this trip with my friends.” I would have gone, “Fuck man, let me come hang out with you. I’m not going to do it, but let me hold your head while you trip.” KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Kurtis Matthews: So, that’s my only regret. I just wish he told me, I mean, you know, Tony Vicich, who ended up helping out Hicks, Tony’s still a friend of mine too. Tony’s great. We all kind of knew each other. I mean, sober comics, sober recovering comics in LA, we kind of all knew each other. And then your circle broadens, you start to meet the sober comics in Houston and the sober comics in New York and the sober comics everywhere. It really is kind of a small community of people that have long-term recovery. Russell Brand, haha, he’s got a whole company now! KiKi Maroon: Yeah! I have not read his book. I’m going to, I want to actually talk about it on the podcast. Because I’ve had lots of people who are not interested in the program, but are interested in that. So I want to offer all the different things. Kurtis Matthews: Of course. I mean, you can recover in multiple different ways. I mean, whatever works for you. The thing I like about Russell Brand, honestly… this is where the Addicts Comedy Tour came from… they say your primary purpose after you get sober is to help other people to achieve sobriety. That “you’ve got to give it away to keep it.”  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Kurtis Matthews: I’ve met so many show business people who get in recovery only so they can get back into show business. Or they only do it because they want to get booked on a show. Or they only do it because they want management to take them seriously. KiKi Maroon: That seems like the longest way to do something. Haha. Kurtis Matthews: I know. But I mean, I have actually seen that. I’ve actually seen that stuff where people are like, “Oh, I’m sober now.” And it’s BS. You can tell when somebody is legit. It’s like, I don’t lead with that. I mean, yeah, I’m sober and yeah, I’m a comedian. But my primary purpose is not to get on Last Comic Standing, if they still have that. What is it now? Who’s Laughing Now? or whatever it’s called.  KiKi Maroon: There’s a couple of them. Kurtis Matthews: I’m not trying to get on Netflix. I don’t care. Every comedian in the country will be on Netflix. Not a big deal. KiKi Maroon: Well, I hope I do!  Kurtis Matthews: Yeah, of course. KiKi Maroon: I want that. Haha. Kurtis Matthews: Yeah, exactly. You still have the compulsion and we’ll cure you of it. But it seems to me…   KiKi Maroon: Success is not compulsion! I want to be successful.  Kurtis Matthews: I don’t know if Netflix is successful. It’s just something you can do. KiKi Maroon: It gives you an audience who can then buy tickets. Kurtis Matthews: You get an audience by being a fabulous dancer and having a great podcast.  KiKi Maroon: I’m not a fabulous dancer. You don’t even know anything about me.  Kurtis Matthews: Then why am I giving to your Patreon?  KiKi Maroon: That’s not for dancing.  Kurtis Matthews: What is it for? Costumes? KiKi Maroon: I am an emcee and host!  Kurtis Matthews: You’re a hoe?  KiKi Maroon: Host! Kurtis Matthews: I know, I’m playing with you, KiKi.  KiKi Maroon: I am a comedian! Kurtis Matthews: KiKi, I believe in you.  KiKi Maroon: I know. Kurtis Matthews: Let’s not make it about you, you’re getting sad. Go do Netflix, KiKi.  KiKi Maroon: Thank you. Kurtis Matthews: That’s fine. Yeah. I want you to, I hope that brings you all the success.  KiKi Maroon: I’m gonna give you my business plan later.  Kurtis Matthews: I want you to, I can’t wait to see it. Now think of all the comedians that have done Netflix, that you still haven’t heard of. So good luck with Netflix.  KiKi Maroon: I’ll be different! Do you wanna hear the plan? Kurtis Matthews: Okay. No, don’t give away the plan. KiKi Maroon: I give it away all the time! I give it away on Patreon! Kurtis Matthews: Other people will take the plan.  KiKi Maroon: All you have to do is sign up for the Patreon and you’ll see my blueprint. Kurtis Matthews: I suggest signing up. I got a sweet t-shirt that says “Insane Clown Posse” or whatever. KiKi Maroon: It says “Houston Stripping Clowns.” Kurtis Matthews: I know. I loved it. It made me happy. I don’t think anybody believes I’m a Houston Stripping Clown. Anyway,  I think Russell Brand’s doing what he wants. I think he wants to help people.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Oh, I agree.  Kurtis Matthews: More than he wants to be famous, he wants to help people now. And I think that’s pretty cool.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. I like that he talks about how he’s had the fame, he’s had the money, he’s had the sex, he’s had all of the things. He didn’t find happiness in it. He found happiness here. And he’s trying to tell other people to kind of give them the shortcut. And it’s hard, because everybody then says, “But you can say that because you’ve had it. I want to try it myself.”… Like… I’m saying now.  Kurtis Matthews: Yeah.   KiKi Maroon: But I genuinely believe him versus other people who seem to be just vomiting the positive bullshit, because it’s popular right now. I believe him.  Kurtis Matthews: Yeah. Obviously there’s something to be said about somebody that’s been there and done that, you know. I’ve done everything I wanted to do in stand-up. You know, really. I mean, I did. I did TV shows. I did cruises. I did colleges. I made a lot of money. I didn’t make money. I worked all over the country. I worked in all but two states in the United States. I’ve been to Canada with my comedy. KiKi Maroon: Which two states did you not do? Kurtis Matthews: New Hampshire and Maine are the only two. KiKi Maroon: Oh, Maine’s supposed to be beautiful. Kurtis Matthews:  I know, exactly. KiKi Maroon: It’s so sad you didn’t make it. Haha! Kurtis Matthews: Well, I could! I could put on a show, nobody would come, but then I could fill out Maine… But I’ve done everything and yeah, I agree. It is not gonna fix you. KiKi Maroon: So you’re not going to quit doing the Addicts Comedy Tour though, right?  Kurtis Matthews: No.  KiKi Maroon: Okay. Because that’s…   Kurtis Matthews: That’s because it’s being of service. KiKi Maroon: That’s what I was going to say. That is how I met you.    Kurtis Matthews: Yes. KiKi Maroon: You were on tour with the Addicts Comedy Tour. Andy Huggins was opening for you and I always like to go to support Andy.  Kurtis Matthews:  Andy is a good man. KiKi Maroon: I actually kept getting ads for it on Facebook because of my search history, I guess. Comedy and sobriety and things like that.  Kurtis Matthews: Right.  KiKi Maroon: So I was very excited when I saw that that was happening! I was like, “Please don’t let this suc!” Because this is important to me. Kurtis Matthews: And it did suck! KiKi Maroon: No! That’s why I was so happy. I know I told you this, but I’m going to say it on the podcast again. It helped me so, so much to watch you. I didn’t know who you were. I just was coming to this random thing. For you to go on stage and talk about things that I thought that only I thought… I left there and I cried my whole drive home. And The Joke Joint is far, it’s a long drive! Haha. I cried my whole drive home because I felt… so much relief. Watching somebody on stage say things that I thought I only thought… I always assumed that I’m crazy. I know I’m kind of crazy and that’s fine. But… you not only said things that I think, but then you talked about how it ends. That you find peace eventually. You talked about the cop and how you want to pull a gun and how it’s so hard that you can’t just let things be okay. That when things are going okay in your life, you want to fuck them up. Kurtis Matthews: Yeah. KiKi Maroon: But that if you keep going… so many years in… you reach serenity. And you find peace. And so it was like you were talking to me from the future. I was like, “Wait a minute. This stops?” I didn’t know that! I had just kind of accepted that I was not going to be able to function.  Because it was my first couple of years of feeling my feelings. It’s a lot rushing in. And so one- I want to say thank you. And two- make sure that you continue to do the show. Because I’m sure I’m not the only person who has that same feeling of relief hearing somebody say, in a very long winded, funny way, “It’s going to be okay.” Thank you. Kurtis Matthews: That’s a lot.  KiKi Maroon: Hahaha! Kurtis Matthews: I honour you as a person, as a comedian, as a sober person, as a human being. And I always knew there was, I don’t know, just something special about you. I appreciate that very much. I’m flattered and humbled by your words. I don’t know. You know, I mean, sure. I could say something funny and just…you know. But that’s fear, right? When you hide behind jokes too much, it’s just fear. You’re just a sad little man wearing tennis shoes when you probably should put on some dress shoes. No, that’s really sweet. And I will tell you this: I don’t intend to stop touring with Mark Lundholm, because he’s one of the most… he’s my brother. I’ve known that guy for 33 years. He kind of represents the “N” (narcotics) and I kind of represent the “A” (alcohol). He’s been there and he’s done that and he’s crazy. And he’s been in jail and he scares the crap out of me sometimes.  KiKi Maroon: Hahaha! Kurtis Matthews: We fight a lot, but we love each other at the end of the day. So that tour will continue. That being said, yeah, I don’t think it’s ever going to be massively popular, but so what? You know, we’ve always said, “If we can go in there and affect two or three people. If we can save somebody’s life tonight, that show’s important. Because I saved somebody’s life; what did you do?” “We got a Netflix special,” Really? I kept that person from putting a gun in their mouth. It’s just that my higher power allows me to do that. And so, yeah, we’re never going to be hugely famous, but we will continue to do that because it’s not about fame; it’s about service. So thank you. I’m glad that you came. And also I’m glad that you’re part of our circle, and as you get funnier, you’ll come out with us as a guest and it’ll be great!  KiKi Maroon: Yeah, gotta get the funny part down. I’m figuring it out. Kurtis Matthews: You’re funny. What are you talking about? You’re funnier than all my students. KiKi Maroon: Well, thank you. I should hope so! Fuck. Haha! Kurtis Matthews: How dare you? You know, they were beginners. What can I tell you? KiKi Maroon: I’m still working on it a lot, but I didn’t feel comfortable, I didn’t talk about not drinking on stage. I’m three and a half, almost four years in. I just finally felt comfortable mentioning that I don’t drink maybe six months ago. Because for the first couple of years, I didn’t talk about it even online. Social media, nothing. I was scared of losing the sponsors. Many of my shows have beer sponsors and liquor sponsors. Kurtis Matthews: Yeah, I was wondering about that. KiKi Maroon: I was very worried about losing them because I need that money to run the shows. So I didn’t talk about it. And I also did a radio show and that was a whole separate thing. We had liquor sponsors.   Kurtis Matthews: You don’t have to drink their liquor to let them sponsor you. You know what I mean? KiKi Maroon: I get that now. But at first, you know, there was a lot of fear. I used to always say, “I don’t want to be ‘sober KiKi’. I just want to be ‘KiKi’.” Which was bullshit. I just didn’t want people… I didn’t want to be held accountable if I changed my mind, basically. So I didn’t talk about it for a long time. When I finally felt comfortable talking about it, I really wanted to help people and that’s how the podcast happened. So now I’m like, “Fuck it. If they don’t want to be involved, fuck ‘em.” I’m in a different place now. I am just now exploring it on stage. Kurtis Matthews: Talking about being sober on stage? KiKi Maroon: Yeah, that’s very new. Kurtis Matthews: My bottom line was always, I’m not going to appear with alcohol and I’m not going to endorse alcohol. At the same time, I don’t have any problem with it, you know. If I go into a club and they have specials on Corona, I’m not going to tell them to stop. I’m just not going to have any. Years ago, years and years ago, there was a Johnnie Walker Scotch contest for the funniest comedian in LA. Anyway, I got into the finals with Steve Smith, who is another sober comic.  KiKi Maroon: Oh, how funny! Kurtis Matthews: And so, it’s a Johnnie Walker contest. And for the promo, you know the guy who’s wearing the Johnnie Walker costume, “Hey, everybody!” KiKi Maroon: Hahaha! Kurtis Matthews: I mean, this guy’s already sold out. You know what I’m saying? KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Kurtis Matthews: So he’s wearing the costume and he goes, “All of us are going to hold Johnnie Walker bottles,” Steve and I go, “We’re not holding Johnnie Walker bottles.” Budd Friedman (founder and original emcee of the Improvisation Comedy Club in New York) bailed us out.  Budd shows up and goes, “Why don’t you hold some delightful Improv water?” And we’re like, “Yeah, what a great idea!” So we’re the only two guys sitting there with Improv water while these other guys are holding bottles of Johnnie Walker. KiKi Maroon: Hahaha! That’s funny. Kurtis Matthews: I don’t have a problem with people that drink Johnnie Walker, but for me to hold it would be disingenuous.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah, I agree.  Kurtis Matthews: Another funny thing from the Addicts Comedy Tour. We were doing the Des Moines Funny Bone. They had been getting a lot of money from Budweiser and Bud Light. Well, Budweiser and Bud Light were making their giant standing displays. So we get there and it’s like, “Addicts Comedy brought to you by Bud Light.” I’m like, “You gotta be kidding me!” I still have it.  KiKi Maroon: Hahaha! That’s so funny. Kurtis Matthews: We thought it was hilarious. The next year, by the way, we were sponsored by O’Doul’s.  KiKi Maroon: Oh my god. Kurtis Matthews: But you know, it was funny. So it’s whatever you can handle. If people can drink normally, god bless them.  KiKi Maroon: I understand. I don’t care now. My thing now is, they can sponsor my festival, which doesn’t have my name and face and everything. It’s more of a general thing I own. So I’m like, “Yeah, I’ll put beer and liquor all over that!” But as far as like, for me, I don’t want that. I just don’t. I just don’t want it. Kurtis Matthews: Whatever works for you. It’s like, what can you live with at the end of the day? I know a lot of people who drink and don’t have drinking problems. I know people who smoke weed and don’t have weed problems. I know people who do drugs recreationally. So I’ve never been one to say that alcohol and drugs are bad. I’ve always been one to say, “I’m bad on alcohol and drugs.” That’s it. I mean, there’s no lecture coming. There’s no holier than now or anything else. But if you’ve got an issue and you’ve got a problem, I might have an answer for you. Maybe, I don’t know.  KiKi Maroon: Hahaha. I do like the idea of, “the Addicts Comedy Tour brought to you by Bud Light,” though. Kurtis Matthews: That was hilarious! I’ll show you that poster sometime. Mark and I are like, “Really? All these years of sobriety and we’re sponsored by Bud Light?!” KiKi Maroon: Hahaha that’s awesome! I think that that’s another reason why I reached out to you. When you did the tour at the Joke Joint, there were plenty of people drinking at the show. And that’s you know… with my show, the Burly Q Lounge, I’m just trying to bring them entertainment. I just want to make them laugh. I want to make them happy for the night. The bar is making a lot of money and I’m not uncomfortable with it. I want them to have a good night – period. And I’ve had people kind of ask me like, “Well, is that weird that you’re encouraging drinking?” I was like, “No, I’m encouraging fun! If that’s what fun means to them, that’s fine by me!” And so, to see somebody else in entertainment where it wasn’t like, “Okay, no beer tonight while we’re performing.” I liked that it was normalized. Kurtis Matthews: Every club is different with us. Some clubs are like, “Everybody knows this is sober night.” So they don’t drink. But also, if Mark and I are working at a comedy club. The normal function of a comedy club is to sell alcohol. “But I thought it was to provide comedy for the masses.” No, it’s to sell alcohol. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, they gotta keep their doors open. Kurtis Matthews: “I thought it was because the art form…” No, it’s to sell alcohol.  What sells alcohol? Butts in the seat? What gets butts in the seat? That guy who swallows a sword and juggles and steals jokes.  KiKi Maroon: Haha. That’s me.  Kurtis Matthews: No, what? You don’t steal jokes. But anyway, we never interfere with the normal course of business. That being said, we have a lot of people who come to see this are either normal or are families of alcoholics. Like you’ll have what’s known as Al-Anon or Nar-Anon. They come and they just want to have a good time and maybe have a drink because they’re normal.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Kurtis Matthews: So they come and watch the freaky alcoholics and drug addicts on stage, you know. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Like I said, I like that it’s normalized. That’s something that I wanted. Kurtis Matthews: It could be, or not. There are times when we work churches or I don’t care.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Kurtis Matthews: I mean, I don’t care what people do. I mean, most of the time, if you work a rehab, people come walking in and they’re high, so…   KiKi Maroon: Oh really? Haha. Kurtis Matthews: I don’t know. Whatever you want, we’ll work a church, we’ll work a facility, we’ll work a club, you know, we’re not going to tell you how to work your business.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. I like that. Okay. So I know that we need to get going. You’re super, super busy. So, the final question I ask everybody is – if you could snap your fingers and everyone around the world instantly believed two things, what would they be and why? The only thing is one of them has to be for the good of humanity, to make the world a better place. The other one has to be completely selfish and self-serving. Kurtis Matthews: Okay. All right. Well, it’s interesting and kind of funny. It’s almost a good joke structure already. KiKi Maroon: Almost.  Kurtis Matthews: Okay. Two things, people do this a lot, right? They’ll go, “Hmmm… Two things…” We’ll work on me first, just because that’s what you would want as a selfish person.    KiKi Maroon: Okay.  Kurtis Matthews:  Okay, I got it. I would want everyone in the world to believe that my father was an amazing dude. That’s for me. For them, I would want them all to believe that we all have worth. And we, as a people, are worth saving. That’s what I would want them to believe. KiKi Maroon: Those are both beautiful. But I’ve got to back up. Why the first one? Kurtis Matthews: My dad was one of the most humble guys ever. And I thought he was awesome. I just think more people needed to know him…. Oh man. You’re going to end it like this. Here we go…  KiKi Maroon: We’re going. Kurtis Matthews: Buckle up! My dad. I used to think he was the goofiest dude. You know what I mean? He was from Oklahoma. So he couldn’t pronounce, “Massachusetts.” He calls it, “Matatoosis, Matatoosis.” And Hawaii was always, “Huwhyuh, Huwhyuh.” And he was this goofy guy. He didn’t know the ends to songs. He would whistle them anyway, just because he was happy. It’d be like, “You’re a grand old flag [whistle in place of words] and something and something and the home of the [whistle in place of words].”  So yeah, he didn’t know songs. He would just sing. He was happy and every day he would wake up and he would call my mom, “his bride,” and would open the door for her. I was like, “This guy is so goofy in love.” And every time they went to the car, he would open the side door for her. And I thought he was one of the most simple, Oklahoma, hay-seed dudes. I wanted a complicated dad. I wanted a dad that had more money. I wanted a dad that was more complicated. And as he was dying, I remember sitting in the hospital room. The guy was the funniest dude ever. And he wakes up, and he goes, “What are you doing here?” And I said, “I’m just watching you sleep.” He said, “You want me to say something fatherly?” And I’m like, “Yeah, sure.” And he goes, “Get the fuck out of here!” Haha. And I said, “All right, Pop.”  And when he died, I realized what he taught me was love. Unconditional love for everybody and everything. And he didn’t talk about it much, but the guy was a Staff Sergeant at the prison camps in Belgium that were bringing Nazi war criminals. He was a badass but he never talked about it. He didn’t talk about it. Just a badass. A sweet, a loving man. And the only reason why my parents’ relationship of 60 years broke up was because he was selfish and died. I just wish more people knew him. That’s all. So that’s why. He was a simple, loving, and sweet guy and my hero actually. So there you go.  KiKi Maroon: That’s wonderful. Kurtis Matthews:  You’re wonderful. KiKi Maroon: You made me forget what the second one was. We’re going to just end on that very serene moment.  Kurtis Matthews: Bring me back in a year when it’s all falling apart again. Haha. KiKi Maroon: You know what? We are, because you mentioned love addicts and I can have a whole conversation about that. Kurtis Matthews: Oh, that’ll be fun. KiKi Maroon: So yeah. We’ll have a separate conversation about love addiction, because… fuck. Haha. Thank you so much, Kurtis.  Kurtis Matthews: Thank you. KiKi Maroon: I really, really appreciate this. I really appreciate you. Kurtis Matthews: Yeah, I appreciate you.  [Theme song: “Last Call” provided by The Last Domino] That was me and Kurtis! We mentioned love addiction and I said I would bring him back on a future episode to talk about it. But that’s not going to happen. It’s time to let y’all know that the next episode is the final episode of Clown, Interrupted. I’ll explain everything next week, but I just wanted to give y’all a little bit of notice. As for love addiction, if the phrase alone resonates with you, I highly recommend looking into it. For some people, it’s a stand-alone condition. And for some people, like me, it’s one of the core issues that led to other addictions.  An article by Psychology Today explains, “By nature, we need emotional bonds to survive and we instinctively seek out connection, especially romantic connection. There’s nothing dysfunctional about wanting love. Love addiction, however, is a compulsive, chronic craving to get our sense of security and worth from another person. During infatuation we believe that we have that security only to be disappointed and empty again once the intensity fades. The negative consequences can be severe. And yet the love addict continues to hang onto the belief that true love will fix everything.” ACK! Kind of hurts!  Another article from Addiction.com, which I will link in the show notes, further explains, “Usually love addicts learn relatively early in life that an effective way to numb out or not feel difficult emotions like shame, fear, depression, and anxiety is to escape into the intense and distracting neurochemical rush of romantic fantasy. In short, if a love addict is focused on how hot a new person is and how wonderful their life will be when they’re together, the addict is able to avoid focusing on his or her problems, whatever they may be. As such, love addiction is less about the search for love and more about finding a way to control tough emotions.” Oh man! They say, “control emotions,” but really it’s about perceived control, by altogether avoiding difficult emotions. And if you listened to previous podcasts, you know that avoiding things is my jam! I literally ran away with the circus to not have to face reality, but that’s just the most extreme example. I’ve also run away via relationships, both real and imaginary, many, many times. Understanding and working through this has made my life exponentially better.  I spent a lot of the early episodes of the podcast not understanding how to date or fuck. Feeling like my sobriety was ruining my romantic life. But now I know that’s not even a little bit true. I hadn’t really gotten into all this with y’all, but let’s just say I’m dating – and fucking – just fine now! Haha. But looking back, I think I was avoiding intimacy because I know that I’ve had this love addiction pattern of losing myself in other people. And I did so much work healing myself, I didn’t want to risk losing it all for some dick. So I put up a lot of barriers – barriers that I just don’t need anymore.  But what I do need is for you to rate this podcast! Hahaha rating and reviewing the podcast on whatever platform you’re listening on helps me a lot. It shows the powers that be that this is a legit show and it keeps the accounts active. Even if the next episode is the last one, I’m still going to keep up the websites and hosting because, I don’t know. Maybe in a day, or a year, or in five years, someone will Google, “I can’t stop drinking,” and this will pop up and help them. So no matter when you’re listening to this, please rate and review it to keep it alive. I’ll be back next week.  In the meantime, let’s keep in touch! You can always find me on Twitter or Instagram @KiKiMaroon. If you want the stuff specifically for the podcast, that’s on Instagram @Clownpod. And of course you can also find me on Patreon. Patreon.com/kikimaroon is a cool place where you can show your support for this show or any of the shows that I’m doing, by sending anywhere between a dollar a month or a thousand dollars a month. No one’s done that one, but I just keep putting it out there! Haha. It’s just a really cool platform that allows all the shows to keep running. So there’s more info on that in the show notes. Whether you want to call it a donation or a tip, it’s all very much appreciated. And as always, I want to thank The Last Domino for the theme song. You can find out more info about him or purchase the full track in the show notes. Thanks for listening. I will see you next week.

I went to San Francisco to meet up with my mentor and sober buddy, Kurtis Matthews (who will be the  guest in the next episode). I asked Kurtis if he had any suggestions for other sober comics I should reach out to while in the Bay Area. He connected me with his friend and today’s guest- Michael Meehan. Michael is a standup comic, sketch artist, and film-maker based in San Francisco. He’s been on The Late Late Show, The Dennis Miller Show, Last Comic Standing, and many other shows and movies. He spoke with me about coming up in the comedy scene in the 80’s and I am so impressed that he was able to get sober during that time! Back then, cocaine was not only the glamor drug of choice, but also how a lot of comics got paid! We discuss that, his relationship with Robin Williams, breaking down the ego, and Bobcat Goldthwait being one of the early sober comics. I loved his story, and I hope you do too! Michael Meehan on Craig Ferguson Michael in the San Francisco Chronicle The Meehan Brothers Punchline Comedy Club Hey Monster, Hands Off My City Shakes the Clown  Robin Williams USO tours Oprah explains her gratitude journal (which KiKi now does too!) KiKi’s outlaw selfie with Bobcat KiKi Maroon on Patreon KiKi Maroon on Twitter KiKi Maroon on Instagram Clown, Interrupted on Instagram If you like the podcast, please consider signing up to my Patreon. Your donation helps with the operating cost and is the easiest way to say, “thanks for making this!”  The Clown, Interrupted theme song is graciously provided by The Last Domino. You can listen to or purchase the full song HERE. FULL TRANSCRIPT KiKi Maroon: Hi! Welcome to Clown, Interrupted with KiKi Maroon. That’s me! I went to San Francisco to meet up with my mentor and sober buddy- comedian Kurtis Matthews.  He’s going to be my guest in the next episode! While I was up there, I asked Kurtis if he had suggestions for other sober comics I should reach out to while I was in the Bay Area. He connected me with his friend and today’s guest, Michael Meehan. Michael is a stand-up comic, sketch artist, and filmmaker based in San Francisco. He’s been on The Late Late Show, The Dennis Miller Show, Last Comic Standing, and many other shows and movies. He talked to me about coming up in the San Francisco comedy scene in the eighties. Honestly, I am so impressed that he was able to get sober during that time. Back then, cocaine was not only the glamour drug of choice, but also how a lot of comics got paid! We discussed that, his relationship with Robin Williams, breaking down the ego, and Bobcat Goldthwait. After the interview, I’ll explain why that’s super important to me. I loved his story and I hope you do too. Here’s me and Michael Meehan. [Theme song: “Last Call” provided by The Last Domino] KiKi Maroon: How long have you been in comedy?  Michael Meehan: I started in 1984. KiKi Maroon: So 35 years. Michael Meehan: Yeah. Once I started doing it, it was like, “Oh, this is pretty cool.” I got some early successes because I was more outrageous, I think, than other open micers.  KiKi Maroon: What do you mean by, “more outrageous”?  Michael Meehan: Much more physical. I’d jump off stage and do things. There was a comedy club, a hole-in-the-wall called the Holy City Zoo. It was Robin Williams’ home club. They had a tiny stage, but they had this pillar on the stage and it had a rope wrapped around it. I climbed the pole and was doing a set 10 feet above the audience.  KiKi Maroon: Did you acknowledge that you were 10 feet above the audience? Or did you try to do your regular set?  Michael Meehan: I would do, “I will now jump off of this height into a bead of sweat on that man’s forehead!” stupid stuff like that. So yeah, I got some success early on, but to me, the main thing was to get good. And so I did all the TV shows, got on Comedy Tonight. Whoopi Goldberg was hosting. I did two episodes of that, which was very cool.  KiKi Maroon: Oh, wow. Michael Meehan: Yeah, so I got a little buzz. I was kind of like, “Hey, I’m going to make it in show business!” But of course, drugs – well, not drugs – marijuana. Well, marijuana is a drug. And alcohol, they slowed me down along the way. But when I started comedy, it was just like, “Oh, this is great! You get to perform and you get these free drink tickets. This is heaven!”  KiKi Maroon: You get paid in drinks. That makes it really easy.  Michael Meehan: Yeah. And at that time in the eighties, cocaine was rampant. I never got into cocaine because I knew that it was the deep end of the pool and I didn’t want to go into. But people would get paid in coke or do lots of coke. It was a scene that I knew I couldn’t hang with, so I didn’t do that. KiKi Maroon: That’s honestly surprising, that you didn’t get into it during that time. Because I always think of Sam Kinison and that kind of thing, where that was part of the comedy. And it’s hard if you see that, those successes around you, to not be like, “Well, that’s whatyou do!”  Michael Meehan: Yeah. That’s the funny thing, you see people who abuse drugs and drinks and you’re like, “Oh, well that’s what you do. That’s how you become successful in show business.” It was interesting because here in San Francisco, Kinison got a big foothold here and I would go see him. It was like, “Oh my god, this guy is on fire!” The same with Bobcat Goldthwait – Bob Goldthwait got a big start in San Francisco. And so it’d be funto see, although at the time he was sober. One of the early sober comics was Goldthwait.  KiKi Maroon: Really? I did not know that!  Michael Meehan: He would just drink Tab soda, which was the most horrific like… KiKi Maroon: That was like Sprite, right?  Michael Meehan: No, it was some sort of brown cola that tasted so horrendous. He would just chug that stuff. His act at the time was just full-on screaming and yelling, but it was so fun to see. Here’s this one guy taking the whole room hostage with comedy. And I was like, “Well, that’s what I want to do!” So that was one of the early…  KiKi Maroon: And he was sober then?  Michael Meehan: And he was sober! Yeah, he would talk about people offering him a drink. He’s like, “ ‘hey, want to do some coke?’ Oh yeah! You’re the guy I want wired in the house! What do you mean you don’t have any more pets?!” Haha then he’d do a swinging motion around his head, like he’s swinging a cat around.  KiKi Maroon: I’m so jealous that you had that. That was part of what I wanted. I’m very attracted to that magnetic, loud, kind of crazy personality that is so much of comedy. But I didn’t see that sober. So I didn’t think that was a possibility. I’m jealous that you saw somebody do comedy in a sober state. Michael Meehan: Well in hindsight, it was great. San Francisco, at that time, was ground zero for comedy. Even though there were a lot of scenes, like Boston was happening, and some other scenes. But San Francisco really was a phenomenal pond where people were just doing so much crazy, interesting, wacko stuff.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah, Kurtis was telling me about you and your brothers. He kept saying y’all were like the Three Stooges. Michael Meehan: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. We had a group. After I got sober, we got together and started doing the Meehan Brothers. My brother Howard and I would always goof on stuff. And my youngest brother, Chris, had gone to New York to study the Meisner Technique of acting. So he came back from New York and was looking for something. By then my brother Howard and I had started doing a bit of a duet. We would just do some goofs. But it was funny because when I got sober, I was like, “Okay, I’m going to get sober. I’ll give up my comedy career if I have to.” KiKi Maroon: “Everything’s going to end. And I’ll deal with that.”  Michael Meehan: Yeah. So I was like, “If I can just stay sober, I’ll be okay.” And what happened was- nothing was funny, of course. I tried going up and doing stand-up sober, but I was new to sobriety, so I hadn’t really grasped hold of what life was about without booze. After a while though, it took off. I started to become so much more cognizant of performing sober and I was like, “Oh my goodness, this is great!” KiKi Maroon: And you said you opened for Robin Williams as well, right? I just want to understand the timeline – the pattern I’m seeing is usually: no success, sobriety, success. So if you had success before, what happened? What was the rock bottom? What led you to decide to quit drinking, if you were already having those successes?  Michael Meehan: Well, my personal life was going to shambles. I was married at the time and had a daughter who was five, and my wife was like, “I can’t take it anymore.” She gave me the boot, and rightly so. During that time, my brother Howard came to me and said, “Hey, let’s do this play called True West by Sam Shepard.” It’s about two brothers. One brother is the responsible brother and the other brother is the alcoholic, crazy brother. I got to play the crazy, alcoholic brother, but it was funny because I had to quit smoking weed and drinking to do the role! To learn the lines and…  KiKi Maroon: To be focused enough to play the alcoholic?! Haha!   Michael Meehan: Yeah! On stage, I would drink those “near beers” or fake beers or whatever. But as soon as it was closing night, I was right back to smoking joints and drinking. And so then, I kind of went on a tear for maybe two months. And then my family, all seven brothers and sisters, and Michael Pritchard, who was a big sober comedian who I knew- he was the biggest sober comedian who I knew- they did an intervention on me.  KiKi Maroon: You had an intervention?! You’re the first person I’ve spoken to who actually had an intervention!  Michael Meehan: Well, it was the best thing that happened to me. In fact, Debi Durst, who is a comedian and is married to Will Durst (political satirist), just told me the other day that she was the one who told. [Phone rings] There’s my landline, it’s probably a robocall telling me that my IRS account is in danger.  KiKi Maroon: Oh, mine is in danger every day.  Michael Meehan: Every day.  KiKi Maroon: My student loans have a lot of problems, too. I actually miss a lot of very important doctors’ calls because I don’t answer the phone ever, because they’re all robo. I’m like, “Oh shit, I was supposed to make an appointment. That was a real phone call.” Michael Meehan: Then you have to go back through the system and find whoever phoned you. It’s a pain. Modern angst. But yeah, Debi Durst was the one who sort of told Pritchard, “Hey, Meehan’s got a problem. He’s out of control here.” And part of it was that. But part of it was also just acting out of control, which was kind of fun to do. It was like, “Alright, I’m getting divorced. I don’t really have a place to live.” I was sleeping in a van or crashing at a waitress’s house. Anyway, so I went to rehab and it was great because I finally got a vacation from myself.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. When I was going through… one of those phases… I justified it. Because I knew I was in the middle of it. I said, “I’m acting out,” and because I knew I was doing it I thought I was in control of it. I would say, “Well, I’m letting the id take over right now. I deserve this. Life is falling apart around me. So I get to be crazy right now.” And I thought it was so mature that I was making the choice to be crazy, rather than being a victimto it. And that made it “okay”. Spoiler: It was not okay.  Michael Meehan: Yeah. The biggest thing is we delude ourselves that we’re okay.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. So was rehab it? Did you have a couple of setbacks along the way or once you went to rehab were you…? Michael Meehan: I prayed to have the hold of booze lifted. I really prayed hard. I didn’t have a problem with God. A lot of people do, but I mean, I was always praying for God to get me out of jams anyway. So it was like, “Hey, this is just one more thing. You’ve got to help me.” They say, “If your god doesn’t work, get a new god. Or get a better god. Or get a bigger god.” or whatever, but I just had to make a slight adjustment. “Alright, I’m really praying for you to lift this obsession to drink from me.” And it was lifted during the 28-day program.  I can’t say exactly when, but it was gone. Suddenly, I didn’t feel like drinking. They suggested that I go live in a sober living place, get a sponsor, and do the steps. I started to do those suggestions and then, like everybody else, once you start, you realize, “Okay, there might be something here!”  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Did you take a break from comedy? Because that tends to be in bars. Michael Meehan: I kind of did just a little bit, but I started back in. Of course, I wasn’t funny. I felt just raw. I was like, “Oh my god, I can’t do any of my old stuff.” So it took a while, but I kept going up. I kind of sucked for a while, which was fine. But the idea of doing stand-up didn’t disappear. I guess I got perspective and I thought, “Okay, I’ll stay sober. That’s the most important thing. And then if I can still do comedy, I’ll give it a shot again.” And it worked out. But sobriety was number one. But the obsession to make it in show business or comedy at all costs was kind of chucked aside, which was such a relief in a way. It was like, “Okay, I’m just going to go up and try to be funny.” KiKi Maroon: Yeah. You have different priorities. I have to tell you, I’m so grateful to hear this, because pretty much everybody I’ve spoken to was like, “No, it was fine. I would go onstage sober before, even when I was an alcoholic.” And I was like, “What are you talking about?!” Because that was most difficult for me. I always went onstage drunk – always, always. So going onstage, that was terrifying to me and changed everything. Everyone I’ve spoken to is like, “No, that part was easy.” So I’m glad that you had that as well. Michael Meehan: It was so painful. I’m sure the audience was just like, “Oh my god.” But slowly, it came back around. About seven months into sobriety, I did the San Francisco Comedy Competition, which at the time was a decent big deal. ]You go around and you perform every night. I was just like, “Alright, I’m going for it!” I had done it several times before- drinking, failing miserably, and couldn’t figure out why. But this time, I went in with a pure heart, “Okay, I’m just going to pray for the other competitors. I’m going to do my best. I’m going to turn over the results (to god).” All the stuff that the program tells you what to do. KiKi Maroon: Seven months in! That’s amazing. To already be in that space. Michael Meehan: Well, the first couple months, of course, were just horrible. But then after a while, I was like, “Alright, I’m going to try this.” But one thing they said in sobriety was, “Go ahead and try new things. Do things differently. See how it is.” They’re talking about things like, “If you go to a meeting and people invite you to coffee, go to coffee with them!” That’s all it is. They’re just going to coffee. So learning how to socialize without alcohol was the deal. And then you start noticing that, “Oh yeah, a lot of people aren’t drinking excessively!” Maybe one or two.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. That’s a huge thing. I thought, “Oh, I’m not going to have any friends.” Then realized, “Oh wait. Most people are not alcoholics.” I just had found them.  Michael Meehan: Yeah. And you do, I mean, you immediately just find those who are like, “Well let’s just take it up a notch!” And you’re like, “Alright, well, these are my people!”  KiKi Maroon: Haha. Did you have to change your comedy? Was it about drinking, or was it just that you weredrinking while you were talking about other stuff? Did the jokes stay with you?  Michael Meehan: Some of the jokes were about that, but most of my comedy was kind of absurd anyway. So it didn’t rely on my persona as a drinker.  KiKi Maroon: Okay. So it was just an internal thing that you had to get over. I had far too many jokes about drinking. And so now I’m like, “Oh! I’ve got to talk about regular things!”  Michael Meehan: Yeah. That’s why it’s difficult, I think, in the beginning. Plus, you’re also talking about drinking before you’re going on stage and I certainly would drink, have a beer or two, before going on. And then after, of course, the party’s on – hanging out.  KiKi Maroon: Oh yeah. My first bombing after stopping drinking – I remember that very clearly. It was at a festival and it hurt so bad. I used to just run away when that would happen. I’d run immediately and grab a shot. But this time, I just had to sit by the side of the stage. I just looked so uncomfortable! One of my friends was like, “Do you want to drink?” And I said, “No….I have to feel my feelings now…” Haha. Michael Meehan: Isn’t that the craziest though?! To be forced to feel your feelings? And then after a while, you’re like, “Oh. Okay. This is not bad.” KiKi Maroon: It’s fuel now!“I don’t want to feel this again. What do I need to do to be better?”  Michael Meehan: Right. “Okay, I bombed. I’m going to go home. I’m going to go to sleep and tomorrow is going to be a new day.” So that’s where you sort of put it in perspective. Where it’s not like you’ve got to get obliterated about this failure or perceived failure. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. It feels like the most important thing in the world that night.  So because you are sober, do you have a lot of comics or people coming to ask for your help or your advice doing that?  Michael Meehan: Periodically. It’s funny because one of the comics I used to hang out with, and smoked tons of weed with, lived right next door to the sober living place. I lived there for 18 months and I saw him twicein that 18 months. Whereas before, I’d see him allthe time. We’d be out smoking weed and drinking allthe time. It was so funny. He lived right next door and I saw him exactly twice.  KiKi Maroon: Haha, oh my god. Michael Meehan: People knew that I didn’t drink. I sponsored a couple of guys that were comedians. But I sponsored guys in A.A., whether they were comics or not. My first sponsor was a cop. He’d come up to the sober living place in his cop car, give me a big hug with his Kevlar vest. And we’d go through The Big Book (basic text for Alcoholics Anonymous) and do the steps. He was such a kind man. And it was like, “Oh, okay, that’s how you do it.” So, I would try to pass on his lesson of, “Hey, just go through the stuff.” In the beginning, of course people are skittish about going through all their crap. It’s so funny because after you stay sober for a while and you hear a couple fifth steps (Step 5: “Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.”), they’re all the same. It doesn’t matter. It’s like, “Yeah, yeah, we all did that. Yeah. Let’s get moving. What’s your part in it? What’s your part? Oh, you’re selfish. Self-centered. Full of fear. Alright. Good. Alright. Move on. Next person.” Haha. It is so funny. But before you do it, you’re so full of fear. After you do it, it’s just like, ‘Oh yeah.”  KiKi Maroon: Haha. Yeah, it’s true. Actually, Andy Huggins (legendary Houston comedian and KiKi’s friend and sober buddy) is the first person who told me “Go to a meeting.” Multiple times, I drove to a place I had looked up online that was having a meeting. I sat in the car, and then… left. But I felt like, “Well, at least I tried.” It was so scary! Like, “I’m just going to walk into this room? Do I have to sign up? What’s it like?” I was terrified so it took a long time. Then once I finally started going to the meetings, even then I would go to one, and then not go for like six months. Then go to another meeting, then not go for months. Kurtis is the person who told me, “You need to go. It’s not a parachute, only for when things are going wrong in your life. It’s active. Continue to go.” I was doing it the hardest way possible, basically. Michael Meehan: Yeah, that’s good advice. “It’s not just a parachute.” I find being sober and going to meetings, you hear these stories and you’re like, “Oh my goodness!” Creatively it’s so interesting to hear how people dealt with stuff. You hear new stories or someone will say something that’s just so hilariously tragic or something. You’re just like, “Oh my god!” and just scribble it down. KiKi Maroon: Hahaha yeah. So I actually – accidentally – went to an LGBTQ crystal-meth anonymous meeting, and it was the most fun I’ve had in a long time! Because everybody was so removed, they all had 5, 10, or more years. They just had the funniest stories, they could joke about it and laugh. We were having the best time! And I was like, “I love meth addicts!” Haha! Michael Meehan: Haha. There’s nothing like a little time past the debauchery.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. It was just really refreshing and sweet to be like, “Oh, we all have the same problems, the same issues. We dealt with it in the same crazy ways. And no matter how different and insane your story is, I get it. I understand.”  Michael Meehan: Yeah. I think crystal meth is just so crazy. Their recovery is such a blessing. Because it’s so destructive. But of course, drinking is equally as destructive. But it is funny to see the various things. A friend of mine told me, “Well, the only difference between a gay fifth step and a straight fifth step is there’s probably a little more sex.” But of course, it’s guys having sex with guys. So of course there’s going to be more sex!  KiKi Maroon: Haha! A performer in Austin who was from here told me “our stories are unique, but the human experience is not unique.“ Actually, wait…everything’s coming together! His name is Bobby Barnaby. He is a circus and burlesque performer who moved to Austin a year ago. He walked me through this book that he had because I was like, “I don’t understand the steps. Is there a book I can get?” I know they have The Big Book, but I wanted worksheets or something. I didn’t know what ‘Work the steps’ meant. The Big Book is just reading. I need things to do. So he showed me a separate workbook that he got. It actually walks you through. You fill everything out and answer these questions. It’s kind of like a companion to having a sponsor and is helpful with the way my brain works. I was like, “Thank you! I need this.” Because I feel like there are fewer performers and artists in Houston I can relate to to find a sponsor. Michael Meehan: Are there more in Austin?  KiKi Maroon: There’s a lot more in Austin. And I like to talk to people who understand being in the public eye and that kind of stuff, because I just think there’s a different kind of crazy about some of those things. And so I like to connect with people on that stuff. Michael Meehan: Oh yeah. So it changes. Certainly my comedy has changed. What I did with my brothers was like a three-headed stand-up. We had a lot of goofy stuff. Our show was very clean, but it was super high-energy. My brother Chris was very physical and my brother Howard and I would be very wordy. But we did our take on “Who’s on First,” (Abbott and Costello comedy sketch),  but it was called, “Who’s on Crack.” “Who’s on crack, What’s on crank, I Don’t Know’s on smack.” Haha. It was a pretty good parody of that. We also had one of our first bits that we did, it was called, “Walk for Justice”. It was our closer bit. We’d go, “Thanks for coming down to the show. If you have a little time tomorrow, we’re going to be at this great benefit. It’s called Walk for Justice. It’s a walk, and it’s for justice. For who knows, but we could all have more justice.” And then my brother Chris would start walking behind us and then we’d go, “Now, if you have a little time that afternoon, there’s a Run for Peace.” So then Chris would start jogging. Then we just started into Hopscotching for Halitosis, Horseback Riding for Hemorrhoids. And Chris would be going behind us. We’d just be over obsequious, I guess is the word, just falling over each other about how much we were doing to help other people. And meanwhile, Chris is getting worn out in the back. “Skydiving for Psoriasis, come on out to the airfield,” and he’d lay on the stool and pretend he was dropping out of an airplane. And then in the end, it was Kicking Yourself in the Testicles for Tetanus. It was fun. That was our big closer. KiKi Maroon: Haha. Oh my god! Do you still do skit-type stuff now, or was that specifically with your brothers?  Michael Meehan: Well, those specifically were with my brothers, but I’ll do some sketches. I’ve been working with Johnny Steele (comedian) a little bit. But it was fun to do sketches with my brothers, and I haven’t really found a sketch group to be part of. Every once in a while, we’d collect comics together and do shows. And The Other Cafe in San Francisco really encouraged it. They would put together three or four comedians and give us a week – it was Comedy Theater Week.  KiKi Maroon: That’s amazing!  Michael Meehan: It was a great show because it was a 90-minute show, everybody got 10 minutes of stand-up. So that was 40 minutes of the show that was already written. And then we’d come up with 50 minutes of sketches.  KiKi Maroon: That’s something Bobby Barnaby was saying he misses in Austin and is trying to build there- are more incubation spaces. He was talking about how up here (in San Francisco), he felt like there were so many spaces where you could just try anything and work on different things like that. And in Austin, it’s more like, they’re booking an already completed show. Versus like, “You can come here and work on this stuff.”  Michael Meehan: Yeah, I mean, San Francisco was great, but I don’t know if they have the space anymore. The tech boom has just steamrolled every space that you could hang out and do stuff with.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah, Kurtis was telling me that there are only two comedy clubs here, which I was really shocked about.  Michael Meehan: What’s crazy is the two main clubs, The Punch Line and Cobb’s are both owned by Live Nation. KiKi Maroon: Oh, really? Michael Meehan: Which is owned by Clear Channel, which is an enormous national media company. But they were considered the underdogs because when Google came in and wanted to buy The Punch Line building, it was threatening to close The Punch Line, which is a premiere room. The Punch Line is so fun to play – low ceilings, great A-room. They got a reprieve through the city and Google backed off…  KiKi Maroon: So Live Nation was the underdog?  Michael Meehan: So Live Nation, which steamrolled all these clubs and bought up all this stuff, they were the underdog! It just goes to show you the monopoly. But part of the offshoot of that though, is that there’s tons of open mics everywhere that are run by comedians. And Kurtis Matthews runs the San Francisco Comedy College (America’s largest stand-up school). That’s a great alternate venue to produce comedy. And there’s a few other places, there’s some improving stuff.  KiKi Maroon: Are there any clubs in Oakland?  Michael Meehan: Oh yeah. There’s tons of clubs over there. In fact, they’ve been going pretty strong in Oakland because there seems to be a little more space. I don’t know about sketch groups. I’m sure there are sketch groups, but I just only know from periodically going over to do stand-up. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. I was surprised when he said that. Because I always hear about comedians coming from here, it seems that there is very strong scene in history here. So when he said there were only two clubs, I was really shocked.  Michael Meehan: Yeah. There used to be a lot more, but it’s definitely shaken out. There are just sort of one-nighters here and there, mostly open mics. There’s not any money in it or else you’re booked in the two main clubs. But they’re all booked through the big Live Nation people.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah actually, my shows just moved in March to the House of Blues in Houston and Dallas. So I was like, “What’s he about to say about Live Nation?” To see if I need to cut anything out! Haha They are basically who I’m working for now. Michael Meehan: Well, that’s good. I mean, if you can get working with them, that’s awesome.  KiKi Maroon: And a lot of fans were not very supportive of the move, but my stance was, “they’ve got a nationwide network. So if we can get the shows into there, there’s the possibility of being able to go to multiple cities…” Because they go very plug-and-play once you’re in. The growth potential is what I went for.  Michael Meehan: Yeah. Well that’s a great move. And I mean, talk about the business of comedy. That’s a great move to plug into that. It was like that at the Improvs too. If you worked one Improv and they liked you, then you could work all of the Improvs. That was a great move to do. If you’re not in the network though, then of course you’re going to feel like you’re left out in the cold. So you have to find some alternate places to play.  KiKi Maroon: Do you do a lot of club work and tour still?  Michael Meehan: I go out a couple of times a month. Certainly not like I used to where I was living in clubs six, seven nights a week. But I always seem to have a day job anyway during my career. Because I was always married with a kid. So even when I was divorced, I still didn’t go way out on the road. I go up and down the West Coast.  KiKi Maroon: So when you were opening for Robin Williams, that was here?  Michael Meehan: Yeah, I mean I worked down in LA a little bit. It wasn’t like I was his regular opener, but I opened a couple shows with him. Kurtis, I think, builds me up too much. But I knew Robin Williams, I got to hang out a lot with Robin Williams, and I know Robin Williams was considered a friend, which was awesome. I mean, before I started comedy, I remember seeing him on the early Mork & Mindy show when I was in college. Everything would stop and everyone would just go watch Mork & Mindy because this guy, Robin Williams, was on and he was phenomenal. Then I started comedy and I got to meet him in my first week in comedy. I went to some parties, he started making fun of me and I was like, “This is it. I’m in the right place! This is great.”  KiKi Maroon: “We’re friends now!” Hahaha So this was a pre- or post-sobriety?  Michael Meehan: This is pre-sobriety. And then I got to actually become decent friends with him in sobriety, which was great. That was through Michael Pritchard and some other sober comedians, because when you’re sober, you start to gravitate towards those other comedians. So that was a fun thing.  KiKi Maroon: I know you’re going to have to get going. So we have a closing question. If you need time to think about it, it’s fine. I will cut things out.  Michael Meehan: I am an Aquarius. I like long walks on the beach.  KiKi Maroon: You are an Aquarius, also?! Kurtis is, and I said, “You’re only the second Aquarius I think I’ve ever met in my life!” So now, you are third.  Michael Meehan: That’s why I get along with Kurtis.  KiKi Maroon: That’s so funny.  Michael Meehan: What’s your sign by the way?  KiKi Maroon: I’m an Aries.  So the final question is, if you could snap your fingers and people around the world instantly believed two things- that is just their reality now- what would they be and why? The only caveat is that one of them has to be selfless and for the good of humanity, the other one, completely selfish and self-serving. Michael Meehan: These are hard questions, KiKi.  KiKi Maroon: Yes. I know, that is the point.  Michael Meehan: How can you throw this at me? Of course the first one, even when you said that, it was like – people just be kinder and more understanding. That’s what I’d like to see more of, including myself of course. Because I’m usually fairly kind to people, but once they get behind the wheel of a car then I’m not kind or generous.  KiKi Maroon: Haha, it’s easy to forget!  Michael Meehan: It’s like, “You son of a bitch!” KiKi Maroon: I actually heard something, I don’t know if this is true, that road rage and those kinds of things that you are talking about are because in the car, we’re going faster than we can walk or run. So there’s a subconscious thing saying, “We’re in danger.” So we’re in fight or flight mode the entire time we’re in a car. And that’s why we’re so high-strung and why everything sets us off.  Michael Meehan: That’s very interesting. That is fascinating.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah, I thought that made a lot of sense.  Michael Meehan: That makes a lot of sense.  I’ve gotten a lot better, by the way. But as they say in sobriety, “If your spiritual condition is good, then nothing’s going to bother you.” You’re going to be able to weather that. So yes, I guess the two-part question is, yes, I’d like people to be kinder and more generous, which we see the opposite effect in the world a lot now from our own leaders. This massive run to the top to try to get as much as you can of whatever it is, resources, money, property. But that’s, of course, cyclical.  And then the other thing is to be completely selfish?  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Everybody instantly believes this thing. And it’s a wonderful, selfish thing for you.  Michael Meehan: Oh my god! There’s so many downsides to that though. I mean, of course the dream of making it on some successful level is always one of those things that drives you. But I feel that my life is a success right now… I mean, I have enough of a reputation without any fame or anything else, so I’m not bothered. I can be anonymous, but I can go up and perform and be outrageous and then I can disappear. So, I mean, I think I have that.  KiKi Maroon: So, fame might lower your quality of life?  Michael Meehan: I’ve changed my whole idea about fame. I don’t need to be famous.  KiKi Maroon: Quality of life will go down substantially.  Michael Meehan: Yeah. Quality of life. Forget fame. That’s no good. And even enormous amounts of money, you still need to hire all these people to take care of it. And they’re always going to steal as much as they can.  KiKi Maroon: Every time.  Michael Meehan: Every time, it doesn’t matter. Haha. KiKi Maroon: Dane Cook is in the middle of a lawsuit right now because his brother/manager bought a house and stole millions of dollars, right under his nose. To have so much money to not notice that someone bought a house with yours is crazy! Michael Meehan: I know enough wealthy people that have had to deal with that. That doesn’t seem like… there are more negatives than there are positives about that. Even though we’re spoon-fed this dream of, “you’ve got to be rich and famous.” It’s like, oh my god, it’s such a pain in the ass. And seeing people – Robin Williams is a perfect example of someone who got everything that every stand-up wants. Everybody wanted to get to be fantastic onstage, to get a TV show, then to do movies, and then to live at home and do movies around your house. I mean, he did so many movies in the Bay Area because…  KiKi Maroon: They will come to you.   Michael Meehan: Yeah, they’ll come to you. But in the end, he still couldn’t take it with him. And he was a phenomenally generous person, too. I mean, there’s a case to be made that he’s probably one of the finest Americans this country has produced because he did all these USO shows (entertainment industry shows to boost the morale of US troops).  KiKi Maroon: Yes! He did! Yes. Michael Meehan: I mean, it wasn’t just at the military base. He would go out to Firebase Taliban and be in a chopper and do a show for 20 people. His personal assistant Rebecca Erwin was saying, it would be her, Kathleen Madigan, and the Joint Chiefs of Staff Michael Mullens’ wife. Because he- Mullens- was in charge of the whole USO in Afghanistan and Iraq. And it would be three girls choppering in with Robin, someplace where they’d just give you a plastic bag to go to the bathroom in and say “Go behind these piles of rocks” Haha. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, but they do it to give the soldiers a little bit of home, which I think is amazing!  Michael Meehan: Yeah. Robin would just go to all these places. And so, I mean, he’s definitely the guy who got it all. But you look at it and you see, even with all that success, he still had to deal with all sorts of stuff. But he left his mark. He was such a generous person. He was very generous with his wealth and his time. That to me is a perfect example of somebody who made it and used it, but he still struggled with drugs and alcohol sometimes. And then Parkinson’s disease took over. He had an aggressive form of Parkinson’s. He saw his whole life as sand in an hourglass, and that was rough.  So, I think the selfish thing (from the final question) would be just being able to pursue the things that interest me, but I don’t need everybody to learn that.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. You can do that now. Haha. Michael Meehan: I can do that right now!  KiKi Maroon: It sounds like you’re a perfect example of, “live in the program,” because you’re living in gratitude. That the fact that you don’t even have an answer for that question! You’re living in a space of gratitude and I think that’s beautiful.  Michael Meehan: It’s unbelievable because my selfish nature doesn’t want to be grateful. But when I started to become grateful, I realized, “Oh my god, this is the best deal ever!” It’s so funny. Haha. KiKi Maroon: It’s almost very selfish because you then live a better life! Haha. Michael Meehan: You’re like, “Oh shit, I get all the cash and prizes if I’m grateful?! If I go help this other newcomer, if I go volunteer my time, if I do some shit over here for some people, and help these poor bastards or whatever?” Oh my god! It’s phenomenal how that works. Because it’s really easy to see once you’re sober, when someone’s ego is out of control. KiKi Maroon: Ohh yeah. I sometimes feel guilty for seeing that. Like, “Am I just projecting on them?” And I don’t want to do that. I feel guilty for feeling like I see those things in people. Because I don’t want to be judgy or anything. But at the same time, I’m like, “Oh, he needs it. He’s got a lot of ego and issues.” I don’t want to think that about people, but I see it.  Michael Meehan: When you see it, of course, you’re like, “Oh my god, it’s horrible.” You can just pray for him. KiKi Maroon: I think, because it feels so familiar, it’s something that you just know.  Michael Meehan: Yeah. Oh yeah. The old, “you spot it, you got it,” type of thing.  KiKi Maroon: Oh yeah.  Michael Meehan: Which, of course being performers, you have to have an ego to push yourself up there, even just to create a persona and do that. But having the program as a counterbalance to that is wonderful because you can say, “Okay, well I am a performer right now, but a little later I’m a worker among workers. I’m just another sober alcoholic who needs this program. I’m just this person, I’m this,” you break it down all the way down. “I’m another carbon-based life form that needs oxygen to live. I’m not special, but because of this program, I get to do all these little interesting things and I see things.” And so it is good, it’s a great life. KiKi Maroon: There is a lot of freedom, I think, in feeling like you’re not special. Not worrying about, “What is everybody thinking?” and that kind of stuff. And I just feel free.  Michael Meehan: That’s a wonderful thought, KiKi. It is. There’s a tremendous freedom in that!  KiKi Maroon: Haha. So y’all hear that? Be good people, even if it’s for completely selfish reasons!  Michael Meehan: Yeah, yeah! KiKi Maroon: That’s all we ask. Haha. Michael Meehan: Be unselfish out there, but you’ll be the one who gets the pay-off.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate it.  Michael Meehan: Well, thanks so much for having me on. Do I need to plug any products or something?  KiKi Maroon: You are welcome to. If you have any projects or anything you want to plug? Socials? Websites?  Michael Meehan: No, I don’t have. I did a movie in sobriety, called, Hey Monster, Hands Off My City!, which we’re going to be showing again at the Another Hole in the Head Film Festival in San Francisco in December. And then eventually, it’ll probably be available online again. It was for a while, but it’s not online. It was filled with comedians… KiKi Maroon: Awesome! Michael Meehan: …And a bunch of sober people too. I’d just be in a meeting going, “Hmm, that person over there would be perfect for the role of so-and-so!” KiKi Maroon: Hahaha! You’re casting in meetings?  Michael Meehan: Totally! Yeah. You know how you go to a casting call and you have like 30 seconds to impress somebody?  KiKi Maroon: Yeah! Michae Meehan: I was sitting at a meeting going, “Oh yeah, Rita over there would make a great cop.”  KiKi Maroon: Hahaha, oh my god! Michael Meehan: Haha. So Rita ended up in the movie. It was just so funny, like, “Hey, you want to…”  KiKi Maroon: “Use your pain?” That is so funny. Michael Meehan: Yes, it was like, “Hey, we need a couple of crazy people!” We needed a crowd of people, but it was during the day and nobody’s available during the day. But there were all these people who were… KiKi Maroon: At the meetings? Haha! Michael Meehan: Or at the halfway house. It was like, ‘Hey everybody, we’ll give you 20 bucks!” It’s cigarette money. They’re like, “We’re there!”  KiKi Maroon: Oh my god! Haha! Michael Meehan: So there is a great scene where this guy is with six or eight people who are all cheering for him.  KiKi Maroon: That’s hilarious! Okay. So I’m going to see if I can come up in December for the screening for that alone.  Michael Meehan: But yeah, I mean, it was the total program. It was fun. And so many other people helped me out in so many ways. But the sobriety thing was very funny, to sit in a meeting and see somebody.  KiKi Maroon: That’s hilarious. Michael Meehan: And some of it didn’t work, either. There was this one girl I met who was in roller derby – she was struggling. She was struggling to get sober, but she was a roller derby. I was like, “Oh my god, wouldn’t that be awesome to have some roller derby people just zip through the scene!” But it never happened. But anyway, the idea was sparked.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah, it fills your mind. Use these talents! Actually for one of my first episodes, I spoke with a roller derby girl (Nicole Morgan aka Marceline the Murder Queen).   Michael Meehan: Oh totally, because you deal with pain. I mean, it’s physical. I mean, it’s football.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah and then afterwards, everybody’s just drinking together and stuff. And so, they actually would make little sober shots for her because they still wanted her to feel included.  Michael Meehan: Yeah, yeah. Oh, that’s funny. That’s funny. Yeah. That’s rugby on wheels kind of…  KiKi Maroon: Haha! That’s a good way of putting it. Well, thank you so much. I will make sure to include everything in the show notes about the movie. I really appreciate you sitting down with me.  Michael Meehan: KiKi, thank you so much for having me. It’s been wonderful.  KiKi Maroon: Thank you. Bye. Michael Meehan: Best of luck. [Theme song: “Last Call” provided by The Last Domino] KiKi Maroon: That was Michael Meehan! I love that we ended our conversation on gratitude. Finding gratitude has deeply changed who I am for the better. Now, I make a conscious effort to not focus on what I don’t have or what I “should” have, but instead, being grateful for my accomplishments, my family, my friends, and ultimately, my life. I haven’t countedthe number of times I could have died, but I assure you, my dumb ass did a lot of things while drinking that- had I died-, people probably would’ve just laughed it off as Darwinism. So yeah, I’ve got a lot to be grateful for.  One of the things I’m grateful for right now is Michael telling me that Bobcat Goldthwait is sober. I have been a fan of his stand-up for years, but I never really researched him to know that he didn’t drink. This is bananas to me, because okay- As y’all know from the title of the show, I was an alcoholic stripping clown. I was surrounded by a bunch of clowns, showgirls, sideshow freaks, everything. A bunch of crazy shit happened: I flipped a truck, dealt with cops, got sober, and found happiness. Right? Right! So, I knew that Bobcat had played an alcoholic clown in his 1991 movie, Shakes the Clown, but I’d never seen it. I just assumed it was like a, “Hey, hey, we’re a bunch of dirty clowns,” funny, raunchy movie.  After Michael said that Bobcat was sober, I wanted to learn more about him. So I watched Shakes,and… it’s my story! Haha! He’s a fucked-up clown in this fucked-up clown-world, who seems to be a good person, but can’t get his shit together. A bunch of stuff happens, cops get involved, and the ending is him at an A.A. meeting, getting his shit together! It’s an absurd, surreal, ridiculous movie! And I cried! I have felt like a freak for so much of my life. Seeing something that mirrored my, admittedly, bizarre story made me feel like I wasn’t alone. And here’s where it gets even crazier – while I was on probation, I wasn’t allowed to enter any establishment that served alcohol, which meant I wasn’t allowed to perform. I kept doing it because I was an alcoholic, hardheaded mess who wasn’t going to let the man tell me what to do! But my probation officer saw a photo of me performing. So it kind of got a little sticky. Rather than stop, like a reasonable person would, I started wearing a mask every time I was onstage! During that time, Bobcat and I shared a backstage at this music festival in Houston (Houston Whatever Fest, 2014)! So I asked to take a selfie with him because, you know, “Yay, Bobcat!” It is still on my Instagram right now. He’s a normal looking man. And I’m a drunk pinata wearing a Mardi Gras mask, risking jail time for a gig that paid $20 and drink tickets. So, not only did Bobcat tell my story, he was in my story. That is crazy!  So if you want to see that photo, it’s on my Instagram and Twitter @KiKiMaroon. The Instagram for this podcast specifically is @ClownPod, that’s ClownPOD, no spaces. And of course, you can always join me on my Patreon. Patreon is a cool place where you can show your support for the show, sending anywhere between $1 a month or $1,000 a month over to help cover the cost. It’s just a really cool platform that allows me to continue running this show along with my circus, comedy, YouTube, everything else. There’s more info on that in the show notes. Whether you want to call it a donation or a tip, it’s all greatly appreciated. And as always, I want to thank The Last Domino for use of his song, “Last Call” – that is our theme song! You can find that in the show notes as well. And hey, thank you so much for listening! Have a great week. [Theme song: “Last Call” provided by The Last Domino]

If you’ve ever been to (or seen photos from) Burning Man, you are familiar with Art Cars. They’re those crazy mutant vehicles you see driving around, like mobile sculptures. There are so many kinds of Art Cars! Some people paint them, some people do mosaic tiling, some people sculpt around the cars, and one person welded two flamethrowers and a stripper pole on the roof of their car! That person is Paul McRae. I spent more than one drunken night pole-dancing on the roof of his car like I was in a goddamn Whitesnake video, so I was shocked to find out that he’s been sober for over 30 years! He is a staple in Houston’s Art Car scene and in this episode, he educates me on how diverse that scene is. My very narrow field of vision made me think that all Art Car events were mini drunken Burning Man’s, but apparently – that was just me. Art Car parades are family friendly events around the country, many schools even use it as an art project for their kids! It just goes to show: you see what you want to see. While I was a drunken mess, I wanted to see the Art Car scene as crazy people looking for a reason to party. Now I see that it’s crazy talented artists from all around the world, finding new ways to bring art to the public. And I have to tell you, I like this view a lot more. Paul and I talk about that, Mick Jagger, being a control freak, hearing voices, and more: Playing on Paul’s car at Daves in 2013 Houston ArtCar Parade on Getty Images 349 of the craziest ArtCars! Across The Universe Auditory Hallucinations on Wikipedia NPR Podcast with Neurologist Oliver Sacks on Auditory Hallucinations Alcoholic Hallucinosis in the US National Library of Medicine Broca’s Area KiKi Maroon on Patreon KiKi Maroon on Twitter KiKi Maroon on Instagram Clown, Interrupted on Instagram If you like the podcast, please consider signing up to my Patreon. Your donation helps with the operating cost and is the easiest way to say, “thanks for making this!”  The Clown, Interrupted theme song is graciously provided by The Last Domino. You can listen to or purchase the full song HERE. FULL TRANSCRIPT: KiKi Maroon: Hi, welcome back! If you’ve ever been to or seen photos from Burning Man, you are familiar with art cars. They’re those crazy, mutant vehicles you see driving around, like mobile sculptures. There are so many kinds of art cars. Some people paint their cars, some people do mosaic tiling or sculpt around their cars, and one person welded two flamethrowers and a stripper pole on the roof of their car! Haha. That person is Paul McRae. I had spent more than one drunken night pole dancing on the roof of his car like I was in a goddamn White Snake video, so I was shockedto find out he’s been sober for more than 30 years. He is a staple in Houston’s art car scene and, in this episode, he educates me on how diverse that scene is.  My very narrow field of vision made me think that all art car events were just these mini drunken Burning Mans, but apparently, thatwas just me! Haha. Art car parades are family-friendly events all around the country and a lot of schools even use it as an art project for their kids. When he told me that I was like, “Wait, the schools make stripper cars?” Haha, no. It’s a legitimate art form and I was just dumb. It goes to show, you see what you want to see; and while I was a drunken mess, I wanted to see the art car scene as just crazy people looking for a reason to party. Now, I see that it’s crazy-talented artists from around the world finding new ways to bring art to the public. And I have to tell you, I like this view a whole lot more. So, Paul and I talked about that, Mick Jagger, being a control freak, and hearing voices. I hope you like it. Here’s me and Paul. [Theme song: “Last Call” provided by The Last Domino] Paul McRae: I had seen one or two “in the wild,” as I like to say. By the way, that’s my greatest contribution to the art cars- I created the term “art cars in the wild.” Haha.  KiKi Maroon: Haha! Okay, so just around in Houston?  Paul McRae: Yes. I used to come to Houston a lot and I saw The Boat Car; it’s still around somewhere. I saw this car driving down Highway 59 one day and I was like, “Holy shit, what is this?” And took a picture out of the window of the car. I also discovered somewhere along the line that there used to be a car park in Downtown Houston where they had art cars permanently parked there. You could drive up and just look at all of these cool cars. KiKi Maroon: 15 years ago?  Paul McRae: Yeah. KiKi Maroon: Really?! Okay.  Paul McRae: More than 15 years ago. KiKi Maroon: I know that it’s been aroundfor a long time but I didn’t know it was that prevalent in Houston that long ago.  Paul McRae: The Art Car Parade began in the ‘80s. They said there were more people in the parade than watching it. But then the next year, it caught on and there were thousands of people and then it has grown to what it is now.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah, now it’s an institution. Paul McRae: Yeah, it’s been big. KiKi Maroon: Okay, that’s a lot longer than I thought. I thought the ‘90s for some reason.  Paul McRae: Yeah. Well, this year was the 32nd year of the parade. I think it’s become a part of Houston’s identity, and I completely support that. I think it’s the best thing about Houston. KiKi Maroon: Yeah.  Paul McRae: You know, we don’t have the same kind of culture that maybe some other cities have.  KiKi Maroon: One of my favorite events of the year is the Art Car Ball. This is the first year I didn’t get to do it. I was already booked at a different show and I was so sad because I get to be a mermaid and splash around in the water. It’s my favorite because it’s at City Hall – we’re in the fountain in front of City Hall! Paul McRae: I know. Isn’t that awesome? KiKi Maroon: It’s amazing! I’m there, flapping my mermaid tail around in the middle of Downtown Houston and there’s art projected on the buildings and bands playing and I’m like, “This is a city-supported event and it’s so beautiful!” That’s how I first met you. I want to say it was our mutual friend Trisha who put us in contact at first because I was doing the radio shows at Outlaw Dave’s and she said that she knew a guy who had a car with a stripper pole on it with flamethrowers on either side and I was like, “Well, that sounds about right for Outlaw Dave’s!” Paul McRae: Well, I just assumed that when you went public with your sobriety on Facebook and then I posted that I, too, had been sober for a while, that you saw that and were like, “Wow, he’s a wild and crazy dude, and he’s sober!” Haha. KiKi Maroon: Exactly! Haha. That’s why I wanted to have you on because, one, I certainly didn’t know you were sober. And two, I’m like, “Wait, the guy with the stripper pole flamethrower car is sober? That’s amazing!”  Paul McRae: Haha yeah, that guy. KiKi Maroon: That guy. Haha! Because, the art car scene has a lot of overlap with the Burner scene, which is a super party scene. Paul McRae: And the skater scene. KiKi Maroon: Oh yeah? Really?  Paul McRae: Oh yeah.  KiKi Maroon: I didn’t know there was overlap with the skater scene.  Paul McRae: There’s lots of skaters in art cars. KiKi Maroon: I did not know that. Paul McRae: They’re known for their antics and parties. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, it’s a party scene for sure. So, when you posted that you were sober, I was surprised and I wanted to hear more about that. Paul McRae: Well, here’s what you need know about my particular scene, the art car scene- everybody is in the art car scene. You can’t pick an ideology and say, “This is what this is about,” because you’re going to find people on both sides of every topic that you bring up. You talk about drinking. There are plenty of hard partiers, and there are even some casualties. But there are a lot of sober people too. KiKi Maroon: Really? Paul McRae: Yeah. My initial impression before I was involved was that they were all a bunch of hippies. That’s not even close. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, I thought it was like a Burning Man spillover. Paul McRae: Yeah,and there’s a lot of that, but you know, if you assume that they’re all hippies or they’re all liberals, you’re going to be sadly mistaken. Some of the people that you wouldn’t expect, you’re like, “That guy is a Republican?” Hahaha! KiKi Maroon: Hahaha! “The guy with a mohawk driving in the bunny car?” Paul McRae: Exactly.  KiKi Maroon: Did you stop drinking before or after you joined the art car scene? Paul McRae: I stopped drinking way before. KiKi Maroon: Oh really? Okay, so you entered in sober? Paul McRae: Yeah, I’ve been sober the whole time.  KiKi Maroon: Oh, wow! Paul McRae: I mean, I quit drinking when I was 25 years-old. I grew up in the ‘70s and I came of legal age in 1980. Back then, it was way more permissive than it is now. Even today, with marijuana being legalized around the country, you still have people wagging their finger at you, telling you that it’s wrong. But it wasn’t like that. I mean, it was just everywhere and by everybody, it was accepted. I’m a huge music fan and all of my favorite music stars were into drugs, and I’m like, “Well, I want to be like those guys.” KiKi Maroon: Oh yeah. Exactly.  Paul McRae: So, you know, I started smoking marijuana when I was like 16 and I got drunk once or twice. But I didn’t really start drinking consistently until I turned 18, when I became able to buy it legally. Although, even back then I could buy it because when I was 16 years-old. I didn’t look 18; haha I barely looked 16, but I walked into a Kroger grocery store and bought a six-pack of Schlitz Malt Liquor and they didn’t ask for an ID.  KiKi Maroon: Hahaha. Yeah. Paul McRae: I went back to my friend’s house and I still remember – this is the first time I got super drunk. KiKi Maroon: Oh, Schlitz was the first time? Paul McRae: Schlitz Malt Liquor. “The bull does it better!” (Schlitz Malt Liquor’s mascot is a bull.) KiKi Maroon: Haha. That’s better than me! My first time was on Midori. It was disgusting! Haha. Paul McRae: I went back to my friend’s house. I walked down there, I was about a block away from his house. We went back to his house and we listened to the Ramones first album that just came out. We were sitting in his bedroom getting shitfaced and listening to the Ramones. And I remember, my dad came and picked me up because I didn’t have my license yet. I didn’t have a car either, so… hahaha!  KiKi Maroon: Haha yeah, that’s an important part of that! Paul McRae: Hahaha! But my dad came to pick me up. It was probably six o’clock or whatever. KiKi Maroon: Oh,you were day drinking? You started day drinking?  Paul McRae: Yeah, it was on a Saturday I guess, because we weren’t at school. But yeah, we were getting blitzed at noon. Haha. My dad picked me up and I don’t know if he knew. I’ve never asked him this question. But it seems to me in retrospect that I was obviously wasted. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Paul McRae: But he never said a word about it. He just drove us home and we stopped at McDonald’s, and got us some food. He never said a word to me. KiKi Maroon: That’s funny.  Paul McRae: I don’t know if he was just out of it or he was just like, “Fuck it. It’s alright.” KiKi Maroon: Yeah, I think sometimes it’s just easier to not deal with it. I definitely have thought about that – about a lot of things with my parents. They would pick me up from my boyfriend’s house; they knew. Haha. I think they just didn’t want to have that confrontation. They just choose to be blind to it. Paul McRae: I started drinking when I was 18 – heavily. I went to college and drinking probably contributed to me failing out of college. There were other things going on, but that was a big part of it. I even got a DWI, but it was still probably a year later before I quit, even after all that hassle. DWIs were not as rough as they are today.  KiKi Maroon: That’s what I was going to ask you because mine was so expensive. Probably, I don’t know, a $20,000+ situation.  Paul McRae: Good lord. KiKi Maroon: Plus probation. And it’s still on my record. My understanding is you can’t ever get it taken off in Texas. It’s a big deal. I had surcharges on my license for years afterwards. My car insurance – this many years later – is still insane. Meanwhile, my dad had more than one DWI and he totaled more than one car when I was a child. And it sucked, but it wasn’t like this massive life-changing thing. There was a lot of like, “Hurry up and get on home,” when the cops stopped him.  So, what was your DWI story?  Paul McRae: Well, they arrested me. I had to spend one night in jail and then I was bailed out the next day by my parents. The fine was not much, maybe $500. But then I had to go to probation once a month and I bitched about that because that was way out in Baytown and I lived in Aldine (areas of Houston – 40 miles away from each other). They didn’t even suspend my license. I never lost my license.  KiKi Maroon: God. Paul McRae: I’ll tell you my real story of why I quit drinking. It’s way more boring than that – haha – because I’m like Bill Hicks, you know?  KiKi Maroon: Haha. I’m sorry to interrupt, but Bill is my heart. Paul McRae: Like Bill, “I had a lot of really good times on drugs.” I don’t regret those times that I had where I was drunk. I never did any intravenous drugs, but I did everything else, you know? Cocaine and pills – every kind of pill – and a lot of weed, but alcohol was the main thing.  I drank a lot of alcohol. I was working with my father and we were doing a lot of traveling. I would find myself at the end of the day, I’d get a six-pack and we’d just be sitting in the hotel room and I’d be watching whatever bullshit on TV. And I just had an epiphany, “This is not a party. This is not me having fun. This is me just sitting here, getting drunk for no reason.” At the same time, I decided, or I realized, that I’m an obsessive person and so it’s impossible for me to do it in moderation. I already knew that. I have a great admiration for people who can drink one or two and that’s enough. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. I don’t understand. I’ve never understood that. I’m like, “What’s the point? Why are you doing that?” Paul McRae: Haha. Exactly. I mean, I feel like I could probably handle it now but I don’t want to test that. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, it’s not worth it. Paul McRae: I’ve heard too many horror stories about people that thought they were okay after 15 or 20 years of sobriety and then two months later, they’re back where they started. I don’t want to find out. KiKi Maroon: Absolutely. Actually, there’s a woman I want to talk to coming up soon who had that. She was 30+ years sober and then just off the rails. Paul McRae: Yeah. Well, there you go. So I just said, “Okay, I’m going to go cold turkey,” and that’s it. KiKi Maroon: So was it hard then? Because it sounds like that wasn’t a traditional rock bottom. Something you could hold on to that when you’re out with your friends the next time. Paul McRae: Well, that’s why I’m saying that my situation was different than yours because at the time, I was spending most of my time working. We were out of town, I was with my dad; I wasn’t with my friends. They were gone or they were back in Houston and I was wherever we were. KiKi Maroon: Oh okay.So it’s almost like going to rehab where you’re separated from the people? Paul McRae: Yeah, in a certain sense. So what happened was, I had made the decision probably a month beforehand and I said, “Okay, I’m going to quit December 31. New Year’s Eve – that’s it. That’s the last time I’m going to get drunk.” So that was it. I’ll tell you, it felt bad for a while. You asked how hard it was. It was hard. I mean, I had cravings – strong cravings – for probably three months. And then they just, they faded. And like I said, I had the willpower because I wasn’t around my friends, around all the drinks. I was just back to sitting in a hotel room with my dad. So I was able to weather that. And then after that, at some point, I don’t know when, but the cravings just went away. I don’t crave alcohol at all – I don’t. I used to chew tobacco. KiKi Maroon: Oh, really?  Paul McRae: That was even earlier. That was, oh god, 35 years ago. And I still crave tobacco sometimes.  KiKi Maroon: Ohhh, yeah. Paul McRae: In the right situation, I would see somebody chewing tobacco and I’m like, “Oh, I want that,” you know?  KiKi Maroon: Dude. I quit smoking all the time. All the time! When I first quit drinking, I was a social smoker. I would just smoke sometimes and then when I quit drinking, it was like, “Well, I should get something.” So I became a chain smoker because, “I deserve this! I gave up something, I need one thing!” I could rationalize it that I’m “allowed” this. So I started chain smoking and it just got worse and worse. And now, I have quit smoking so many times. I’ll go like a month or two months. And then this last time, I actually ended up having to have surgery. I basically had pre-cancer, the step before that. So they cut out the stuff and it was really intense and I didn’t know how bad it was going to be. When someone says, “cancer,” when a doctor tells you that, you freak out. Paul McRae: Oh, yeah.  KiKi Maroon: So, I quit. Just quit because when you think you’re going to die of cancer, you feel stupid smoking a fucking cigarette after that. Paul McRae: Some people do. Haha. KiKi Maroon: Well, I was good. I was good for several months and then in the last month I’ve probably had three and I’m like, “What is wrong with me?”  Paul McRae: Dammit, KiKi. You got it inside you! I mean, you can do it! KiKi Maroon: I know, but I’m just agreeing with you. It’s like, I don’t crave alcohol anymore. Many years ago, I would have said you were crazy; that I would still want it forever. But yeah, the cigarettes still… and they offer me so much less than alcohol did. Haha. Paul McRae: Haha, oh yeah. I never smoked any cigarettes and the reason I quit the chewing tobacco is because there was a girl, and she wouldn’t kiss me. And I’m like, “Okay, yeah. This is gross. I’m going to stop doing this.” Haha. KiKi Maroon: Hahaha! Oh my god! Well, that’s a great motivator. Haha. Oh my god. Yeah, I’m in that same place. I don’t really think about it, I don’t crave it. I would have thought it would have been hard forever. When I first stopped, I would think about it way too much. If I was in any social setting, it was very like, “Don’t do it! Don’t do it! Don’t do it!” It was an intense, constant effort to not drink. I quit so many times and started again that I was doing a thing for a while where I would put a rubber band on my wrist for every day that I didn’t drink and I just had like, piles of rubber bands. I felt so proud of myself, so I created a system – haha – for every five rubber bands, I would put a bangle on the other wrist. Haha. Paul McRae: Hahaha! That’s a pretty good idea. KiKi Maroon: What’s that thing called?  Paul McRae: Abacus. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, it was like a sobriety abacus! So I had like, you know, six bangles over here and three rubber bands over here, but then I would drink. And the shame of having to take them off my wrist… I would get so upset at myself. That should have been a sign that I really had a problem. If I was having to do that to try to convince myself to not drink. Paul McRae: Yeah well, to sum it up for my experience- blackout drunk, that didn’t do it for me. Getting a DWI, that didn’t do it for me. But I was bored. I can’t be bored. KiKi Maroon: I get that.   Paul McRae: Haha. I’m making light, but you know…   KiKi Maroon: That’s the point of this though! It’s light, for sure. Paul McRae: I just came to the realization that this is not why I drink, this is not Mick Jagger or whatever.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah, you aren’t some rock star. Paul McRae: This is just some working schmo sitting at home alone drinking. Not that I was ever Mick Jagger. Haha. KiKi Maroon: Haha. Have you seen Across the Universe?  Paul McRae: Yeah I have, actually. KiKi Maroon: I love that movie! I think it’s so beautiful. I went through this phase where I watched it almost every day. I loved the Beatles. I was in school for costume design and all the costumes were gorgeous. I loved the scenery and everything. It was so beautiful to me and I would watch every day. This is back when I was dealing with a lot of depression and unhappiness with my life. And after a while, I remember one night that it hit me like, “I’m watching people live this beautiful, magical life. And I’m just sitting here alone in my room… watching.”  Paul McRae: Yeah, yeah.  KiKi Maroon: That realization was thetrigger for me, to just turn it off. I was like, “I want to make my life magical.” Paul McRae: In that way, we have a similar experience there. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, exactly. I get it. Paul McRae: That’s really great, because I’ve never heard anyone else that expressed it like I have. I was like, “I was going to tell you that I don’t have the typical story. I think mine’s more unique.” But here we are. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, I understand. I was watching and I realized “this isn’t what I’m supposed to be doing.”  Paul McRae: And then you became KiKi.  KiKi Maroon: Haha. And then I went, “I’m going to make magic, goddamn it! And I’m going to go crazy doing it!” Haha. Paul McRae: Haha. No, I was never Mick Jagger. I was never cool. I’ve never been cool. KiKi Maroon: Haha. I don’t believe that, sir. Paul McRae: Haha. No, back in the ‘70s, we used to say, “Sex, drugs, and rock and roll,” you know. I got the drugs and the rock and roll part down. But I’ve got to say, for anybody out there who’s thinking about quitting,  I got way more sex after I quit drinking. KiKi Maroon: I believe that, from a man’s point of view! Haha. Paul McRae: Haha! Yeah. I’m sure it’s way different for you.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah, I think for a guy, it’s like, you’ve got your shit together. So that makes sense. It’s more appealing. Paul McRae: Well, it’s more like I have my wits about me. I’m not just a dumbass…   KiKi Maroon: Stumbling around. Paul McRae: Just over in the corner, you know, babbling bullshit.  KiKi Maroon: Haha. Yeah. Exactly. Paul McRae: I can actually talk to somebody intelligently. KiKi Maroon: Exactly! And that’s why I believe that that’s true for you. Haha! Because that is more attractive. I can tell you right now, there is nothing as unattractive as, “Oh, this guy is going to need a babysitter tonight.” That’s not at all what I want. Paul McRae: Yeah, I’ve never been hot enough to get away with that kind of thing. Haha! KiKi Maroon: Haha! But yeah. I’m actually having the opposite issue, where I have had sex twice in about two and a half years. And I still don’t fully understand how to do it. I mean, I know how to do it! Haha. But I’m still learning how a sober person dates. I don’t need to date someone who’s sober, but I have learned I can not date someone who’s fucked up all the time, because that was a realbig problem. Paul McRae: Well, yeah. I can dig it. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, but I still don’t know how to do that. Paul McRae: Well, I think you probably have to learn to let go, because you’re very vulnerable in that situation. Especially as a woman, I would think. KiKi Maroon: Yeahhh, but I’m also a control freak. So…  Paul McRae: Haha. Well that’s another thing. I didn’t mention that earlier, but I think that’s something that worked in my favor. I don’t like the loss of control and that’s why I quit caffeine. KiKi Maroon: Yeah? Paul McRae: Because I’m not going to let the tea tell me I have to drink it! KiKi Maroon: Haha yeah! That’s how I feel aboutcoffee, except it’s winning. I hate it! It makes me so mad. I’m like, “You will not have power over me. Except…I’m really busy right now… so just a little bit right now…but I can stop anytime!” Haha!  Paul McRae: Haha! “Ijust need a bump. Give me a bump.” Haha. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, I get that. I think that’s normal. After my talk with Bobby Barnaby (clown/burlesque performer friend – see Episode 9!), I started actively going to A.A. meetings. I’ve enjoyed them. I always have, but it was kind of like a here and there kind of thing, you know? I’d go to one and then like, three months later, go to another one; maybe a month later, go to one. But now I’m regularly going and it’s actuallyworking. I’m supposedly working the steps right now. I just kind of did the first one and then stopped, but I’m doing it!  “Control freaks”, that’s definitely a trend that you hear over and over and over in the room. We are a willful, spiteful people! Haha. Which I guess kind of makes sense because for the longest time, that’s why I excused my drinking. I am such a control freak during the day. I’m just work, work, work and I would never stop. So I would tell myself that I needed that release at night, because I’m in charge of everything all day, every day and if I don’t have that crazy release at night, I will go insane. Rather than changing my lifestyle to where I don’t need to let go of control by blacking out, I just did that for years and years and said that that was me “finding balance”. Haha. Paul McRae: Trying to find balance on a seesaw.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah, and it never ends. Paul McRae: You were just running from one end to the next. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, and that’s all I did. Go to either extreme. Paul McRae: Well, another thing that has worked in my favor through the years was – you mentioned depression. I think that I’m truly blessed with the fact that I’m basically a happy person. KiKi Maroon: Oh? What is that like?! Haha. Paul McRae: Haha. It’s nice, I guess. I try to empathize with people, but my experience is different. You know, I’ve lived a pretty stress-free life. I have parents who love me and they’ve taken care of me and I haven’t been touched by tragedy very much. I can’t think of anything that’s been all that horrible that’s happened to me. KiKi Maroon: I find that questionable.  Paul McRae: Haha. Well, everybody has bad shit that has happened, you know.  KiKi Maroon: Exactly! Paul McRae:  But you know, nothing that’s left a scar on me. KiKi Maroon Again, I question that. Paul McRae: Physical or otherwise. KiKi Maroon: I wonder if, perhaps, it’s because you have not drank for …what? You said 25 years? Paul McRae: 32 or 33 years. KiKi Maroon: 32 or 33 years. One, you’re not ingesting a depressant, because that’s what alcohol is. Paul McRae: Yeah. KiKi Maroon: I think that people very casually drink every day, and then talk about being depressed. I don’t say anything, because then people can say you’re being judgy. But I’m like, “Well, you’re also ingesting depression, basically. You’re taking it in on a daily basis.” Paul McRae: Yeah. KiKi Maroon: Two, by not taking that in, you have a different mindstate that you live in. Things happen – surely things have happened in your life. I think that, perhaps, you are just more equipped to handle them and process things and be a functioning human. Because for so many years now, you’ve had control over it. You know what I’m trying to say? Paul McRae: Alright nowKiKi, we’re not doing therapy here! Hahaha! KiKi Maroon: I’m just saying! Shit happens! I think you just might have your shit together and you’re in a good mental state to where you can process it healthily, rather than run away from it. And that’s why you are a happy person, because you’re healthy in your process. Paul McRae: Well, I mean, well, sure. Yes. Terrible things have happened to me, but they haven’t affected me in those ways. Like somebody, they’ll say, “Oh, I lost my job and then I got kicked out of my house.” Well, that never happened to me. I’ve lost money, you know, I’ve done stupid things. But like we were saying earlier, I’ve driven blackout drunk, but I didn’t kill anybody. I didn’t do anything that left a permanent mark on me, so I was able to just skate past all of that. And I’m in a place now where I have everything I need in my life. KiKi Maroon: I’m just saying, there are people who can make spilling their coffee in the morning sound like a tragedy. Haha! Things have happened, we don’t have to talk about them. But you are in a different place where you can say, “No, I’m happy and I have a good life.” I think that it is about your state, not about you just being “lucky” and having a great life.  I’m just saying, give yourself more credit for the state you’re in. Paul McRae: Well, I guess you could say that because I’m sober, I didn’t continue down that path of destruction I was on. KiKi Maroon: I’m just saying, I don’t think luck is it. Hahaha. So going back, you mentioned Bill Hicks earlier. One of the people that I spoke to – actually on the very first episode – was Andy Huggins, who was part of the Texas Outlaw Comics with Bill Hicks. Paul McRae: Oh, yeah? Cool! KiKi Maroon: Yeah, it was amazing. So, if people are just starting to listen now and haven’t gone back to check out other episodes, please listen to the first one! Paul McRae: Does itmean that I’m Bill Hicks-adjacent now? KiKi Maroon: Yes, you are, because let me tell you – when I found out I was, I got real fucking excited! Haha. So yes, you are!  Paul McRae: Haha yeah, that’s most definitely going to go to my head. KiKi Maroon: He’s my heart. He’s like – it’s really weird – he’s this… saint’s a bad word, especially for Bill Hicks. Haha. Paul McRae: Oh no, that’s good. I mean, I’m completely comfortable with that…   KiKi Maroon: That title? Paul McRae: What do you call it? “Nomenclature.” That way, that manner of speaking, you know, with spiritual reference? KiKi Maroon: Ooh, “nomenclature” is a good word. Paul McRae: Whether you believe or not, I think “saint” because he’s elevated. He’s brought a lot to us. KiKi Maroon: Absolutely.  Paul McRae: Way more than probably a lot of actual saints! Haha. KiKi Maroon: Haha. So like I said, back in that Across the Universe time, I was very depressed. Not just for a little bit. Basically my earliest memory is, maybe being four or five, crying every single night because I was like, “People are going to die.” I understood death and I could not fall asleep at night. I’d tell my dad, “You’re going to die;” my mom, “You’re going to die.” And they’d be like, “Okay, but not now. You have to go to sleep.” And I’m like, “No! What is the point of anything? You’re going to die! I’m going to die!” It was very weird. Not a thing I feel like most children have.  Paul McRae: I don’t know when people have that realization. I haven’t had it yet. Haha. KiKi Maroon: Oh, no! Haha. I’m sorry! Maybe I just brought you to your tragedy. Yes! Haha. Paul McRae: Haha. No, I’ve already decided I’m going to live to be 150. KiKi Maroon: Oh, good for you!  Paul McRae: Yeah! KiKi Maroon: So yeah, I was just a super, I guess, existentialchild and so I was very depressed growing up. Just a lifetime of super-deep depression, multiple suicide attempts, just not a happy person. Maybe my second year living in Houston, I, unhappy with my life, decided to give away everything I own. I was going to travel the country making hats and selling them at art festivals. So I was packing up everything around my room and I would just be up smoking pot all night, slowly packing, figuring things out. And there was this website called StumbleUpon. It was kind of like YouTube, but the videos were on auto-play and you could select your categories. Mine was like comedy, fashion, travel… And it just plays random shit. I had never heard of Bill Hicks when it started playing a video that was the last bit of his speech from Revelations, you know, “It’s just a ride.”  Paul McRae: Yeah. KiKi Maroon: “Life has ups and downs. Sometimes it’s scary, but it’s okay because it’s just a ride.” He has this whole speech.  Paul McRae: Yeah, I love that one.  KiKi Maroon: And it was the most beautiful thing I’d ever heard. I just sat down and watched it probably 10 times just over and over and over again. It just made sense to me. Paul McRae: Yeah. KiKi Maroon: [tearily] That was… that was… Paul McRae: It’s okay.  KiKi Maroon: I never want to sound like I’m saying, “You can just snap out of depression.” I understand it’s not like that. I understand that there are chemicals. I understand everybody’s story is different. But for me, that shook me out of it,  I realized so much of my depression was a choice I was making. Paul McRae: Yeah, I mean, marijuana is a depressant too. It works for some people. KiKi Maroon: Haha. Yeah. Paul McRae: It wasn’t working for me. KiKi Maroon: Bill Hicks made me realize that yeah, it was just a ride and it was okay. And so I ended up looking him up and watching his full specials and everything. I heard what I needed to hear, when I needed to hear it. It turned my life around and was the beginning of me coming out of a lifetime of depression. So even though he was dead before I ever saw that video, he’s very, very  important to me. Paul McRae: Oh, me too.I didn’t know him when he was alive. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, then I found out like, years later that he was from around here! He came up in the Houston comedy scene and I was like, “Whaaaat? He would drink Cecil’s (Houston dive bar)?! I drink at Cecil’s!” Haha. And that was extra crazy to me because, at the time, I didn’t know we had a Houston connection. He just was this magical saint to me who changed my life.  Paul McRae: Absolutely.Well, I’ll tell you a personal story. We’re getting down to it now. It is a chemical imbalance. And some people, those souls, whoever they are – god bless them. I feel for them and I hope that they get the help they need to live productive lives.  KiKi Maroon: Absolutely. Paul McRae: I have mental illness in my family and have to deal with it up close and personal a lot. One night when I was smoking weed, I was driving home alone in my car. I was high. Very high. And I started hearing a voice in my head, and at the time I perceived it as the voice of the devil. KiKi Maroon: Oh wow.  Paul McRae: And he was telling me, “You’re going to die. You’re going to go to hell.”  KiKi Maroon: Oh my god! Paul McRae: I was like, “Oh fuck that!” And I realized that it was the weed speaking. That wasn’t enough to get me to quit right then, but that stuck in my mind. Like, “I don’t want any more weed. I don’t want any more weed.” KiKi Maroon: Wow!  Paul McRae: And of course, you know, it was the weed talking because when I stopped smoking weed, the voices didn’t come back, thank god.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. The voices stopped.  Paul McRae: So, I don’t want to unlock that room! KiKi Maroon: I used to think I was psychic when I would get really high and that I could hear everybody else’s thoughts. But it was just my insecurity, because I was hearing the other person say like, “Oh my gosh, she’s so stupid. Why would she say that?” Haha. Paul McRae: Just your inner voice. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, the inner voice would be like, “Oh, my god, why is she here?” Haha. Just a whole room against me, basically. But I didn’t think it was just me being high, I thought I was psychic! Haha. Paul McRae: That’s the drugs. I felt that same way too. That’s why I couldn’t talk to girls because, “They’re not going to like you.” KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Paul McRae: “Fat guy.”  KiKi Maroon: “Why is he talking to me? What’s going on?” Haha. Paul McRae: Haha. Yeah, you know, I was totally insecure and weed didn’t help either. But afterwards, that self-talk inside, it changed, you know? It became positive. It was more like, “You can do this! You’re not a dummy! You can accomplish something! You can do whatever you want to do. Go out and do something and make it happen. You’re not that guy, you’re not a loser!” KiKi Maroon: Yeah! I’m glad that you know that. That’s good. I feel like I’m a couple years away from that. Haha. Paul McRae: It’s going to happen. It’s going to happen. KiKi Maroon: I think it is. I think that if the first step is the negative self-talk, I’m a step upwhere I do have positiveself-talk. I do that I am… whatever – smart and talented and things like that. But then it comes around says, “You are being so conceited for thinking good things about yourself. How dare you think that about you?”  Paul McRae: Haha! Oh my god. KiKi Maroon: And so I cancel out the positive talk. But, I think that’s just a step before actually being positive and happy with your life. I’m moving up! I’m so close, I’m so close!  Paul McRae: Just shake it off! Don’t listen to that asshole! Haha. KiKi Maroon: Or am I an asshole for thinking that it’s an asshole, when it’s telling me the truth? Haha. Paul McRae: Oh, lord. We’re peeling an onion now. Haha. KiKi Maroon: Oh, I’m nothing but onion!  Okay, so this is the part where we do the final question.  Paul McRae: Alright. KiKi Maroon: I ask everybody the same two questions: if you could snap your fingers and people around the world instantly believed two things – it is their reality, it’s their truth now – what would they be? The only thing is, one has to be for the good of humanity, good for the world; the other one has to be completely selfish and self-serving. Paul McRae: Oh, man, that’s too deep for me! I don’t know if I can come up with something like that. Well, for the good of humanity, I’d love for our political climate to change drastically. We are on a collision course with fascism in this country and around the world, it’s getting worse and worse. I would even be happy if we just nominated someone that was intelligent, you know? KiKi Maroon: And now totally selfish? Paul McRae: Oh, that’s, I don’t know. Can I be 18-years-old with the mind of a 57-year-old? KiKi Maroon: Absolutely! Why not? Haha. Paul McRae: Haha! Well that’s a great fantasy. Maybe not 18, maybe 21. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, a little bit older. Haha. Well, thank you so much for joining me, Paul. I really, really appreciate it.  Paul McRae: It wasso good to be here. I wouldn’t miss it. You got me to open up. I’m telling you all these secrets. I’m not even going to be able to share this on Facebook now! My mom will be crying. Haha. KiKi Maroon: Haha. Yeah. Let’s not do that. I don’t want her to cry. Haha. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Paul McRae: So good to be here. Thank you. [Theme song: “Last Call” provided by The Last Domino] KiKi Maroon: That was Paul McRae! We’re sodifferent, but we had so much in common. It makes me think about what Bobby Barnaby said in Episode 9 – “Though our stories are different, the human experience is not.” Paul and I both hearing voices when we’re drunk or high got me thinking a lot about my internal monologue, you know, that inner voice in your head. I started researching it, and it’s crazy! Scientists have found through these neurological experiments that the same part of our brain used when we talk out loud, is used when we’re using our inner voice. It’s called Broca’s area after Pierre Paul Broca, who discovered that link. And not onlyare we using the same part of our brain for both speaking and inner monologuing, but we’re also using our larynx. So when you’re in your brain going off in an imaginary fight with your boyfriend, you’re activating the same muscles in your throat that you use when you call him a giant asshole to his face! Haha. It’s like your brain and body don’t know the difference between thinking and talking. So what’s crazy is that the parts of the brain that are activated during internal monologue are the same parts activated during auditory hallucinations, like a schizophrenic hearing voices. In this study done in Finland, they found that during auditory hallucinations, everything was normal in the brain, except the part of the brain that understands self-awareness was less active. So the theory is that people who hear voices do so because at that moment, their inner dialogue isn’t recognized as self-produced. Now, I’m a stripping clown, not a doctor, so I don’t have the answers. But it makes me wonder if that self-awareness part of the brain is perhaps being numbed by alcohol or weed, causing a similar effect. Paul and I both heard voices. It happened to me so often that I just called it my weed-induced anxiety, but it would also happen sometimes when I drank. I would laugh it off and say that I was just the worst psychic in the world. “All I can hear is people thinking bad thoughts about me!” but those voices just said the same stuff that I used to think about myself all the time. “She’s stupid, she’s ugly, she should just kill herself,” and some other stuff that wasn’t as nice. Haha. So, it does seem like a less intense version of what those studies were talking about – inner dialogue not being recognized as self-produced. I tried to find information on that link specifically between the lack of understanding the self-awareness and alcohol/weed, which I mean – come on! We all know we lack self-awareness when we’re drunk or high, but I couldn’t find anything exactly like that. The closest thing I could find was something called “alcoholic hallucinosis.” There was this one study that said, “Alcoholic hallucinosis is a rare complication of chronic alcohol abuse characterized by predominantly auditory hallucinations that occur either during or after a period of heavy alcohol consumption. Usually presents with delusions and mood disturbances arising in clear consciousness and sometimes may progress to a chronic form mimicking schizophrenia.”  There are a bunch more science words and then it says, “No study has conclusively demonstrated that an acute illness with pronounced similarities to delirium tremens or chronic illness resembling paranoid schizophrenia. In short, there is no consensus as to the nature of the illness.” In other words, we don’t fucking know. Haha. They did say they believe that part of the reason for so little research is that it seems to be prevalent when someone is actively using, and those people tend not to go knocking on researchers’ doors asking for help. So, I don’t know for a fact that the kind of voices Paul and I both heard are tied to some neurological numbing of the Broca’s area part of the brain, but it is an interesting theory. If you enjoy hearing theories from a stripping clown who dropped out of college, please consider joining my Patreon!  Patreon is a subscription service that funds the podcast, web hosting, storage, audio equipment, and more. You can learn more at patreon.com/KiKiMaroon ! And speaking of the website, the brand-new Clown, Interrupted website launched today! Woo! It looks pro as fuck. Please check out ClownInterrupted.com and let me know what you think. Patreon direct messages are the best way to reach me privately, but you can always Tweet me what you think @KiKiMaroon! And as always, the theme song was graciously provided by The Last Domino. I’ve linked to it in the show notes, along with a bunch of other links about art cars and inner monologue. I hope you enjoyed it. I hope you have a great day and I will talk to you soon!

Welcome back! This episode’s guest is Dan Danzy. Dan is a standup based in Dallas, TX. I booked him to perform in my variety show, even though I knew nothing about him. He was recommended by another comic I knew, so I asked him to come do standup at my Burly Q Lounge show. While we were backstage waiting for Dan to go on, Confetti Eddie ( a magician who also lives in Dallas) says “hey Dan, congrats on that article!”  Apparently, The Dallas Observer came out with an article just ONE day before highlighting sober performers in Dallas! First off, I didn’t know Dan was sober when I booked him. Second, thank you universe! That article is like a rolodex of people for me to interview! Dan and I gush about the Outlaw comics, he teaches me about the different types of alcoholics, talk about the time he thought he killed someone, and then he explains Twitch to me. I hope you like it!  • Dan Danzy on Twitter• Dan Danzy on Twitch • Dallas Observer article- Straight Edge: Performers Explain How They Stay Sober While Working the Nightlife Scene• American: The Bill Hicks Story• Robert Downey Jr. talks about addiction on Oprah 2004• The 5 Types of Alcoholics • Calculate how much you spend on alcohol• 1000 True Fans• KiKi Maroon on Patreon• KiKi Maroon on Twitter• KiKi Maroon on Instagram• Clown, Interrupted on Instagram If you like the podcast, please consider signing up to my Patreon. Your donation helps with the operating cost and is the easiest way to say, “thanks for making this!”  The Clown, Interrupted theme song is graciously provided by The Last Domino. You can listen to or purchase the full song HERE. Full Transcript: KiKi Maroon: Hi! Welcome back! I hope that you’re doing well. I have been super busy working on my circus shows. I’m putting together a proposal to build my biggest production yet. It’s been a little bit crazy, but it’s all really, really exciting! Today’s episode was a fun one. I’ve said in previous shows how Bill Hicks was super important to me; before I did comedy, before I did burlesque, in my early twenties, his “It’s Just a Ride” monologue changed my life. It helped me crawl out of a lifetime of depression. So now that I have a podcast about something that also changed my life – sobriety – he keeps coming up! It’s very weird. And it’s not me who keeps bringing him up! I promise! My guests just all somehow have a connection. This episode’s guest is Dan Danzy. Dan is a comedian based in Dallas, Texas. It’s funny, I actually booked him to perform in my variety show – sight unseen, knew nothing about him – but he was recommended by another comic I know and respect. I asked Dan to come out and do stand-up at my Burly Q Lounge show. We were backstage and Dan was about to go on when this magician, Confetti Eddie, says, “Oh hey Dan, congrats on the article.” Dan thanked him and went onstage, and then Eddie told me that an article came out in the Dallas Observer the day right before, highlighting sober performers in Dallas. I was like, “What?!” One- I didn’t know Dan was sober. Two- thank you, universe! Haha! This article is like a Rolodex of people for me to interview! I’m from Houston, so while I now produce a monthly show in Dallas, I don’t really know anybody there yet, so the timing of the article was perfect! I was like, “Here’s a list of my new best friends, whether they like it or not!” Haha. So when Dan was done performing – killing it, by the way – I told him about this podcast and we set this talk up. I had never met Dan, but he’s awesome! We have a bunch of mutual friends and I don’t believe in accidents, so I think that it’s kismet that he starts the whole thing off by talking about how important Bill Hicks was to him. I feel like one of those documentaries that starts off about one thing, but then turns into something else. Did any of y’all watch Tickled? It’s crazy! Feels kind of like that. Anyway, this podcast started as an exploration in sobriety and it’s accidentally become some sort of Bill-Hicks-appreciation-hour-circle-jerk, or something like that. Haha. It’s really weird. Dan and I talk about that, he teaches me about the different types of alcoholics, that one time that he thought he killed somebody, and explains Twitch to me. I hope you like it. Here’s my conversation with Dan Danzy. [Theme song: “Last Call” provided by The Last Domino] Dan Danzy: I was looking at who you had on the podcast. You’ve had Andy Huggins. You’ve had Sam Tripoli. I don’t know what I’m doing on-air. Just, thank you for having me.  KiKi Maroon: I love Andy! No, thank you for being here! Dan Danzy: I worshiped Andy Huggins and the rest of the Texas Outlaw Comics pretty much before I started comedy. I found Bill Hicks and just wanted to know everything about him. KiKi Maroon: Oh my god, really?! Dan Danzy: And then the Outlaws, and Andy discovering Bill Hicks, and then Andy doing comedy. And then I run into Andy on one occasion, just like, “That’s like one of my gods right there.” KiKi Maroon: Oh my god! Okay. So we have something very massive in common.  Dan Danzy: Yeah. KiKi Maroon: How did you find Bill Hicks? Dan Danzy: I was 13 years old. My brother is four years older than me – he was really into George Carlin. His girlfriend, who ended up being his first wife, introduced him to Bill Hicks. Then he introduced me to him. Before, I only used to like Paula Poundstone and Dana Gould and Jeff Foxworthy, Bill Engvall. I mean, I didn’t like Jeff Foxworthy. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, yeah. But that’s what you knew about comedy.  Dan Danzy: Yeah, HBO stand-up. The Half Hour (now called Comedy Central Presents). Then I heard Bill Hicks and I was just like, “I like this guy,” He’s negative and he’s cynical, he’s anti my father. My dad is hardcore. We just had an argument on the phone. Haha.  KiKi Maroon: Oh yeah.Haha.Was he super conservative? Dan Danzy: Oh yeah, he heard that Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick just blamed video games for this whole mess and I was just like, “Oh, no, it’s something else.” But that’s what I loved about Bill Hicks. He was making this funny. And then I really liked how he could set up his jokes. You know, there’s a lot of Woody Allen, there’s a lot of old-school type of comedy in there… KiKi Maroon: Lot of layers. Dan Danzy: …mixed with, you know, social commentary. Totally ahead of his time. Haha. KiKi Maroon: Yeah.So, I stumbled upon his ending speech on Revelations.  Dan Danzy: “It’s just a ride.” KiKi Maroon: “It’s just a ride.” And it was just that part, so there were no jokes. It was just that. And it blew my fucking mind. Dan Danzy: Because it’s a great message. KiKi Maroon: It was so powerful and was exactly what I needed to hear. I was at this point where I was like, “I don’t want to be depressed anymore.” That was exactly the message I needed to hear as I was packing shit up. I watched it over and over and over and I was like, “This guy’s amazing!” Dan Danzy: Yeah! Then you get into comedy and you hear all these stories. KiKi Maroon: It was so, so good. And here’s the thing: I didn’t even know he was from Houston! Dan Danzy: Really? KiKi Maroon: I was in Houston, figuring all this stuff out about my life and then there was a documentary that came out about him. I saw it on Facebook, maybe I got an invite or something that they were going to do a screening at a theater in Houston and I was like, “Well, that’s random to have a screening about Bill Hicks in Houston!” Dan Danzy: Is it that, oh gosh, the name escapes me…but it’s the movie where they took the pictures and they made it almost 3D? KiKi Maroon: Yes! Dan Danzy: AndAndy is in it.  KiKi Maroon: Andy is in it! So, I went to the movie and that’s when I was like, “Wait a minute. This motherfucker is from Houston?!” Since that time, Andy has become a very important person to me. You know, he helped me when I decided I was going to quit drinking. I met him pre-sobriety. He was somebody who I reached out to and I talked to about a lot of stuff. He’s still very, very important to me. And so, it was bizarre to get that connection to somebody who, in the afterlife, is so important to me, my story, and finding happiness, honestly. Dan Danzy: Yeah. When I wanted to get sober, I just went back to Bill’s material and back to his stories in American Scream (Bill Hicks biography by Cynthia True) and love letters and routines, his books. I wanted to absorb everything. One of the things he did was he moved, and so I did that. KiKi Maroon: To get away from everything. Dan Danzy: My rock bottom was when I moved. And then I had my second DWI before 30 and I was just like, “Oh! Okay.” I didn’t even remember getting drunk. Well, I don’t remember getting drunk, but I remember passing out because it was at a party for the company I was working for. A ramen restaurant that had a pretty nice little setup, good pay and everything. The co-workers were great. I went to the Christmas party at a manager’s house, performed a little stand-up, and had everybody laughing. I remember laying down on the couch and when I woke up, I was in jail. But like, Austin County jail.  KiKi Maroon: Wow. Dan Danzy: It wasn’t my first DWI though. My first DWI was spent in a detox tank and I had my clothes on. This time, I woke up and I was wearing scrubs.  KiKi Maroon: Like, you were processed. Dan Danzy: Yeah, and I thought I had killed somebody.  KiKi Maroon: Oh my god! Dan Danzy: I sat there for four or five hours thinking, “Oh, I killed somebody. This is it. This is it right now.” And I just remember thinking, “If somehow this isn’t what I think it is, I’m really, really going to try this time just to stop.” KiKi Maroon: “I’m going to think about it this time.” Haha. Dan Danzy: “I’m going to.” So it’s like six o’clock in the morning and they take us all in front of a judge. I’m handcuffed to a guy, who I’m pretty sure is a pervert. A judge says my name and says, “DWI Two.” And I was like, “Really? That’s it?… okay! Cool. Alright, we’ll do that. Guilty, go ahead. I’ll do the probation.” Haha.  KiKi Maroon: Wow! Dan Danzy: And probation is actually what helped me get sober. I went into it, not like the first time where it’s like Big Brother’s watching you. I thought, “Well, if they didn’t want me to get better, they would just throw me in jail.” So I might as well just take advantage of whatever they had. I got probation and I moved back up to Dallas – that was the first thing. I could never live in Austin again. There’s too much there. KiKi Maroon: So much. Dan Danzy: There’s weed. There’s drugs. KiKi Maroon: Coke, so much coke. Dan Danzy: Coke. Oh, there’s so much! So I was like, “I’ll move back up to Dallas. Because I know people in there, I can have a support system in Dallas.” And it took awhile for me to really get off alcohol. I basically moved up here and I asked my probation officer to “send me to your best drug abuse counselor, send me to the best community service, send me to the best class”, everything. And I just usedthat and I just learned from it. KiKi Maroon: So, backing up… Dan Danzy: I’m sorry! KiKi Maroon: No, don’t be sorry! Dan Danzy: I went into a whole four-year journey there! Haha. KiKi Maroon: I appreciate it! You’re giving me so much to ask you about! So, the first time that you got your DWI, that was not your response, obviously…  Dan Danzy: No, because there were questionable circumstances with the cop and why he pulled me over.  KiKi Maroon: Were there really? Dan Danzy: Yeah! So it was in Commerce, Texas, a small college town (60 miles northeast of Dallas). I went to go hang out with friends. They drank a lot. I drank a little bit. I wasn’t gone. I knew I wasn’t gone.  KiKi Maroon: Okay. Dan Danzy: And the cop pulled me over. He pulled me over for something. I don’t remember, but we proved in court that he was outside of his jurisdiction. And he was interrupting me and making me look bad. And by the time he took me back to the station to give me my breathalyzer, that’s when the alcohol had peaked because there is a peaking point. But the jail was so close to where he basically pulled me over. That that’s what we were trying to prove, that at the time when I refused or whatever, that’s when it was below the legal limit. KiKi Maroon: That just sounds like some fancy lawyering! Dan Danzy: Oh yeah,I got a big-city lawyer from Dallas. But, looking back, it was my fault. Because had I not just had a drink to begin with, I would have been fine. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, of course. Dan Danzy: Yeah, but at the time, you know, I’m 22. KiKi Maroon: So you could be like, “Fuck that cop.” Dan Danzy: Yeah, I’m 22 or 23. I’m thinking like, “I don’t have a problem. I’m just being in my twenties.” That was one of the reasons why I never saw the alcoholism, because I was “just doing what every normal 20-something-year-old does”. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, “we’re just living”. Dan Danzy: Yeah.But that second time, just not having any memory and waking up, I was like, “Okay, this isn’t fun anymore.”  KiKi Maroon: That’s crazy.  Dan Danzy: It was definitely a mind-blowing, revelation type of thing. KiKi Maroon: Did you blackout often? Were you a blackout drinker or not really? I mean…you thought you murdered someone. Dan Danzy: Yes, I was. I was. KiKi Maroon: Okay. I was too. That’s what I’m wondering. I would blackout, but still keep going for hours and hours and hours.  Dan Danzy: Oh, I would too. KiKi Maroon: I don’t remember anything that most people told me. Dan Danzy: But I thought it was normal. Because I had people around me that did it as well. You know, if I wasn’t blacked out drunk one night – I’m making up a name right now – “Adam” would be blacked out drunk. So just be just a usual thing. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Were you mostly around comedians or industry/restaurant people? What were your friend circles? Dan Danzy: Industry/restaurant people. I didn’t know it, or I didn’t realize it at the time, but comedians didn’t like hanging out with me because I was wild. I had a mouth on me when I was drunk. KiKi Maroon: That is so opposite of all the comics I know. They just all get shitfaced together. Like, blackout, blackout. Dan Danzy: Up here, I’d like to say that me and a couple of others back in the day contributed to the, “let’s not get as messy” mentality. Do you know what I mean? Now, the veteran comics will tell young comics up here like, “Don’t…”  KiKi Maroon: Really? That’s awesome and opposite of my experience! Dan Danzy: And I’m not shy about telling young comics, “Hey, I’ve been banned from this comedy club twice for drinking terribly, so don’t get started on that foot.” KiKi Maroon: Look at you! Dan Danzy: Yeah, yeah. Haha. KiKi Maroon: That is so opposite because, honestly, that’s part of what started the podcast. In my situation, the people I knew all drank constantly. So I was like, “Are there any other comics that don’t drink? Are there any musicians? Are there any…” I was trying to find artists and people in the public because every single one was shitfaced all the time in my particular circle. Of course, now I see, “Oh that’s because that’s the circle I was  choosing to be in.” It’s really interesting to me that Dallas would be like that. That’s cool. Dan Danzy: Yeah. Well, when I did have blackout drunk drinkers with me, I would tend to get even more drunk than them. I always saw it as a competition for some reason. Like a group of us were just getting hammered and we’d be like, “Okay, well, I’m going to get more hammered than this guy! Show him up,” you know? And then I’d have something to get on to him about the next week at open mic, like, “I can drink you under the table.” So it was just, yeah… Some people got in trouble. KiKi Maroon: Comics being competitive? No way! Haha. Dan Danzy: Yeah, now it’s competitive onstage. I did like that about Dallas. We’re supportive but competitive. KiKi Maroon: That’s so crazy. Okay, so you get your second DWI in Austin. How long were you living in Austin? Dan Danzy: This was like less than a month. KiKi Maroon: Shut up!  Dan Danzy: Yeah, less than a month! KiKi Maroon: Oh my god! Haha. Dan Danzy: Yeah. Maybe Austin wasn’t the right move. I feel like if I picked a better city…  KiKi Maroon: Haha. I was supposed to move to Austin for six months and I think I made it for two.  Dan Danzy: Yeah. KiKi Maroon: That was part of that time where I was giving everything away. I “moved” to Austin but then I was like, “I can’t do this.” That was for different reasons. I was still drinking. I just didn’t care for it. Dan Danzy: Because it’s a party town. Everybody just parties. KiKi Maroon: Oh, definitely. Dan Danzy: And when everybody’s partying, it’s hard to find a sober person because if they’re not drinking, they’re doing something else. And if they’re not doing that thing, they’re doing another thing. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. So did you try to quit before the second DWI? Because it’s pretty extreme to go from blackout to “Give me your best drug counselor.” That’s a lot of clarity that I don’t feel like people usually have. Dan Danzy: I wanted to… like, okay, a couple of months ago, I heard Robert Downey Jr. say to Oprah in this old interview, “the hardest part about going sober is not staying sober, it’s making the decision.” Like, you don’t realize you’ve decided, until you’re in a good place.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Dan Danzy: So now that I’m in a good place, I can say that I wanted to, but I wasn’t fully committed. I just thought moving was going to do it. I didn’t realize it was me. I didn’t realize that, “this is how your brain operates.” And with the drug abuse counselor, I really wanted to dive into why I was the way I was. I found out what type of alcoholic I was. I’m not the type of alcoholic that drinks every day. I’m the type of alcoholic that wants 15 drinks at all times. I constantly want not one, I want five. Or not five, I want 10. KiKi Maroon: Wait, I’m just realizing something. You have a very different experience than people I’ve talked to because you immediately got professionalhelp. Dan Danzy: Really? KiKi Maroon: Yes. So wait… How many kinds of alcoholics are there? You’re giving me new information right now! Haha. Dan Danzy: Okay. So there’s the type of alcoholic that drinks every day.  KiKi Maroon: Okay. That’s me. Dan Danzy: And they’re functioning, you know?  KiKi Maroon: That’s borderline me. Dan Danzy: Then there’s the binge drinker. KiKi Maroon: That’s me too. Can you be all of them? Dan Danzy: Haha! I think you’d be dead if you were all of them! Then there’s the type that once they start, they don’t stop. So like, anytime I started drinking, I could go for like two more days.  KiKi Maroon: Like, consistently? Dan Danzy: So I would drink consistently, not every day, but be blacked out drunk one day, then be blacked out drunk the next day, take a break, because the hangover had gotten bad. So take a one or two day break, then start doing it again. Repeat the process. KiKi Maroon: Okay, that’s the one! That’s the one I got. Haha. Dan Danzy: Yeah. And I should have caught on early, because this is what my mom died of. My mom drank every single day for like 16 years, until her liver gave out.  KiKi Maroon: Oh my god. Dan Danzy: Cirrhosis. Pretty much exploded. But because I wasn’t drinking every day, I was like, “Oh I’m not my mom,” because I didn’t know there were different types of alcoholics. KiKi Maroon: Because you would take the time – the hungover day – off? Dan Danzy: Yeah. Then there’s the type of alcoholic that doesn’t realize they’re an alcoholic, yet they’re getting blacked out drunk, like, twice every week. KiKi Maroon: I feel like you can be all of these! I feel like you’re still describing me. Haha. Dan Danzy: You can be all these, but in lighter ways, like the person drinking would think it’s lighter levels.  KiKi Maroon: It’s like being gay. I feel like there’s a spectrum. I feel like I’m on the spectrum, right? Dan Danzy: Haha. Yeah. Like, “I only kiss, I don’t do the other things! There’s like different degrees… “ KiKi Maroon: Haha. Yeah. Like a “top-up lesbian”. Haha.  Dan Danzy: I only use my fingers. I don’t… Hahaha I have to remember we’re in a public place! KiKi Maroon: Haha! That’s fine. They can’t hear us. Right? We have earphones on. Dan Danzy: Haha! Who knows how loud we are being?  So, hey, have you ever calculated how much money you spent? KiKi Maroon: Oh god, no! but I know it’s a lot, because suddenly I felt rich. So much money! Dan Danzy: So me and the counselor, we calculated from like 21 to when I stopped at like 28. So we just averaged it. I guessed a tab I can remember was like $65, $70. So we just did that for every weekend. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. You only did the weekends? Dan Danzy: Yeah, of course! Friday nights?! Saturday nights?! KiKi Maroon: But like only weekends? Dan Danzy: Yeah, just only weekends. KiKi Maroon: So you were being conservative with your number. I’m sure, because you still…  Dan Danzy: Because I mean, I couldn’t remember. I couldn’t remember dates, you know? So- $90,000. Over $90,000! KiKi Maroon: Fuck!  Dan Danzy: Yeah. And when someone… KiKi Maroon: See, it hurts. But then I’m like, “I’m sure. I’m fucking sure!” Fuuuuck! Oh my god.  Dan Danzy: Haha! We’d be so much further in comedy with $90,000. At least I would! I started when I was 18. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Shit. I was having a conversation with a girl last week, that I truly feel that with $20,000, I could change the world. Like, that’s where I’m at right now. I am so careful and understand, I know the path I want to take and what I need to do. And, as you know, it all costs money.  Dan Danzy: Yeah. It does. KiKi Maroon: And I can DIY so much of it where I’m like, “Okay, I cannot afford a videographer, but if I could get this editing equipment,” or whatever. So…God… $90,000? Fuck! Dan Danzy: Yeah. I always wanted to make sketch videos, right? And I did get like a little Sony Handycam, but I would always think, “When I get this camera…” But I just could never get that camera because I’m always broke. I could never pay my rent. So I would just beg my roommates. And I was just thinking, “It’s just because I’m terrible with money.” But now looking back, it was, “Oh no, you’re just spending it on drinking this whole time.” KiKi Maroon: Yeah. So… what do you think it is when you’re not drinking and you’re still terrible with money? Did your counselor tell you anything about that? Haha. Dan Danzy: I think – look- I don’t think overnight you become great with money. It’s kind of like hitting the reset button on your brain when you take alcohol out of the equation. You learn to do things that you should have learned being a responsible adult in your twenties. You’re just learning it very slowly. KiKi Maroon: Yes.I’m just learning it now. Dan Danzy: I’m not great with money now, but I’m much better than I was four years ago.  KiKi Maroon: Yes. I definitely agree about the reset button. I am grateful for this growth, but I occasionally feel stupid and upset at myself. For example…I bought a filing cabinet. Dan Danzy: Yeah. Okay. What’s wrong with that? “I have no files!” Haha. KiKi Maroon: Previously, my papers, receipts, and everything else were on a mountain on a table that I was terrified to go through, because it was so overwhelming. I just kept putting piles of papers in boxes and hiding them away. And so I just bought a filing cabinet…  Dan Danzy: That seems like a step up. KiKi Maroon: You would have thought I invented the filing cabinet! I was so fucking proud. People were coming to my house and I was like, “Come look at my filing cabinets! You want a medical bill? I know where that is!” I was, like, showing off that I knew where my paperwork was, because this was such a fucking bananas moment for me! “I know where things are!” Dan Danzy: Look, not going to lie. Two weeks ago, I had that same experience when the new vacuum cleaner showed up. Haha. Like, I bought this! I immediately put it together and plugged it in.  KiKi Maroon: Haha. “Yeah, look at me vacuum!”  Dan Danzy: My fiancé was texting her feminist friends and sending them pictures like, “You can’t believe this shit.” Haha. And there I am, “Haha!” – just vacuuming the apartment!  KiKi Maroon: “Look at me, playing grown-up!” Dan Danzy: Oh yeah. I was just like, “Look, it takes out the pet odor. And this part comes off! Look at this. This is amazing!” KiKi Maroon: Haha. It’s empowering to feel like you’re making decisions that better your life. Haha. Dan Danzy: Haha. It’s right below the autographed pictures of celebrities. I’m very proud of that vacuum cleaner.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. I am proud of myself. I am excited about, you know, “Look at this growth.” But I can’t help but to feel guilty about how much… Like the way you calculate the money. “How much time of my life have I wasted?” Like, not being a functioning human. Dan Danzy: Did you have fun? KiKi Maroon: I tell my therapist I had fun. And she was like, “Did you really though?” And she convinces me that I didn’t… Haha. Dan Danzy:  I don’t know, because now that it’s all behind you. And you’re having fun now.  KiKi Maroon: I am having fun now. Dan Danzy: Without that, without what happened to me, without my drinking days, I wouldn’t have anything to learn from. Know what I mean? KiKi Maroon: I definitely don’t regret anything, because I think that I am – I know that I’m a stronger person. I am proud of my story. That’s why I’m doing the podcast! I want to share my story, I want to help other people. And I know none of that would have happened without that. So I definitely don’t have regrets… but I do have those little pangs of guilt of, “Well, fuck. I’m 35. I should know where papers go.” Dan Danzy: Haha! Well, I mean, yeah, there’s that probably. Well, I spent over $90,000 and some of those nights were just like the most fun I’ve ever had. You know? Not that I don’t have fun moments now, but those nights were pretty fun. The nights I didn’t go to jail, you know what I mean? There’s a night where my buddies and I snuck into a rich condo’s pool. We hopped over the fence, started swimming. We pissed off some lady. She came outside and started talking shit. We were just laughing at her. Because it’s just like, “You’re 50. What do you care?” KiKi Maroon: Oh my god. “We’re juston your property is all.” Dan Danzy: No, I mean, it’s several people’s property.  KiKi Maroon: Oh, okay! Dan Danzy: Like, you’ve decided you’re going to come outside and tell us? We’re not being too loud. We’re just swimming in your pool! I don’t know.  KiKi Maroon: Oh my god! Haha. Dan Danzy: You’re just 54 and you got nothing else to do and you’re just mad that you’re 54 and you’re taking it out on us.  KiKi Maroon: Haha. I think she was mad that you were in the pool! Haha.  Dan Danzy: Well, I mean, but we weren’t blasting music or anything, we’re just doing a couple of laps. It was a nice pool, we’re just doing a couple of laps. You know, we weren’t naked or anything.  KiKi Maroon: Haha, okay! Dan Danzy: Don’t you just hate that about old people? They just lash out because they’re not ready for death. Haha! KiKi Maroon: Haha! No. We’re different. I like old people. Dan Danzy: I don’t hate them!  KiKi Maroon: You sound like you do! Dan Danzy: No, I mean, I see enough of them on Facebook. Maybe that’s why I get angry. But no, they just lash out sometimes because they’re scared. And I understand that. And they hate young people too. KiKi Maroon: Haha. You are projecting. A lot of them don’t hate young people. Dan Danzy: I think they do! I think there’s a little bit of resentment  KiKi Maroon: I don’t think so. Dan Danzy: Because they see how much fun you’re having. KiKi Maroon: You say that. Meanwhile, when I see 20-year-olds, I’m like, “Oh dear god, thank god I’m not 20 anymore!” I feel like they might have a similar…  Dan Danzy: I feel like our generation hates “Old Town Road” (song by Lil Nas X) because we’re becoming our parents very slowly. KiKi Maroon: So, I’m not cool. I see people post “Old Town Roa”, but I couldn’t tell you what it is. Dan Danzy: Like what genre or just what it’s about? KiKi Maroon: Is it a song? Is it a movie? Dan Danzy: Oh, a song! Oh, you don’t know?  KiKi Maroon: Okay, it’s a song! Dan Danzy: What’s his name? (Lil Nas X) I don’t know his name, haha, but it’s with Billy Ray Cyrus. He gets Billy Ray Cyrus on a track, it’s not country. I don’t know. They say it’s country. KiKi Maroon: Haha. Oh. So if I heard it, I would know it probably? It’s like a song you hear often? Dan Danzy: If you heard it, you would know it. All the kids know it. I think it’s catchy. KiKi Maroon: Does it say, “old town road?” Because I want it… to me, it sounds like, [country voice] “old town road.”…  Dan Danzy: Yeah, that’s kind of how the chorus goes. KiKi Maroon: Haha! So I just wrote a pop song? “Old town road, old town road.” Dan Danzy: It’s pretty much a pop-country song. And you’ll see people go, “This isn’t country.” But my point is, if the country hadn’t gotten so bad, we wouldn’t have to consider this country. KiKi Maroon: Do you know what song I hate with a passion? Dan Danzy: What song do you hate with a passion? KiKi Maroon: “Honky Tonk Badonkadonk.” Have you ever heard that song? I know it’s old, but I’m old. I know. Dan Danzy: That’s almost 15 years old! KiKi Maroon: Is it that old?! Fuck! Dan Danzy: I remember hearing about that song back in like, 2006 or 2007! KiKi Maroon: Dear god. Okay. Well, let’s pretend it’s current. Dan Danzy: You’ll be glad to know, it’s no longer on the radio. Just a little update. KiKi Maroon: Haha! Well, I was going to go on a rant about how clearly formulated it was to be pop-country. But this seems like I’m a little bit late. So nevermind. Haha.  Dan Danzy: Do you remember Cowboy Troy? Do you remember him? “I Play Chicken with the Train.”  KiKi Maroon: No…  Dan Danzy: You don’t remember that? KiKi Maroon: No. I was probably drunk. Dan Danzy: I mean, then you probably danced to it. You probably did dance to it. KiKi Maroon: Haha! Probably on a bar. I probably loved that song. Dan Danzy: That was another thing about being drunk. You could hate a song, but if you were drunk, you danced to every song you hated. What was it? “Born in the USA”? “Party in the USA.” I hate Miley Cyrus. But I’d be drunk and that song would come on. Then I just knew all the words. KiKi Maroon: See, you’re fondly remembering that. But to me, I just think about how that’s the same way I feel about people. There were people I hated, but if I was drunk I could tolerate them. And I’d rather see through this bullshit. Dan Danzy: That’s probably the one thing I miss about drinking is being able to tolerate. Like, I miss that. KiKi Maroon: You miss that? I feel like I’m a superhero now! I feel like I have superpowers of being able to see, like, “You’re tricking everybody else around you, but I am not foggy and I know you are a piece of shit!””  Dan Danzy: Haha. Yeah, yeah, yeah. “I see you!” Haha! KiKi Maroon: I really… I almost enjoy now when somebody is drunk and clearly trying to manipulate a situation because I’m like, “You’re so bad at this. You’re drunk and you think you’re being clever or sneaky or you’re trying to like, ‘Well, I heard she said something about you, and I didn’t want to tell you because she’s my friend…’” Shit like that, if they are drunk, it is so transparent. I’m like, “You’re really bad at manipulating me right now, but I like that I know what your intentions are.” Dan Danzy: Oh well, in that aspect, yeah. KiKi Maroon: So I feel like I have superpowers! Dan Danzy: There are just some people I could tolerate them better if I was drunk. You know? KiKi Maroon: I don’t care for that anymore. I’m good. I’ll hate you and I’ll know. It’s fine. Dan Danzy: Like when comics are envious of you or when you sense that jealousy, I hate that. I hate that! Because I just want us all to get along and all to get better.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah, but that’s other people’s problems. Dan Danzy: When I was an alcoholic, I didn’t want anybody to like me.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah, ‘cause, “Fuck ‘em!” Dan Danzy: And now that I’ve gotten past that. I’m just kind of distancing myself. When I find out someone doesn’t like my negative personality or my cantankerousness, you know, that I’m just like, “Aww…” KiKi Maroon: Because now it’s the real you that they don’t like. Dan Danzy: Yeah, because now it’s the real me! And like I said to somebody last week, “I could just do five shots right now and show them the monster that they’re missing!” KiKi Maroon: I have totally thought that many, many times! Dan Danzy: You know what I mean? KiKi Maroon: Oh absolutely! Dan Danzy: “You don’t even know what you hate right now!” KiKi Maroon: Yes! Oh my god, yes. And I’m like, “This is not healthy. Let me back away from the situation.” But ohh yeah, I’ve definitely been in situations where I thought, “If I grabbed a bottle right now, this shit would be so fucking over!” Dan Danzy: Yeah, I could get- Ooh I was mean! I had a vicious tongue.  KiKi Maroon: Oh yeah. Dan Danzy: If you made me mad – I was a happy drunk – but if someone said the wrong thing, I could just lash back out with something mean and vicious that would just shut them up and get them to hate me forever. KiKi Maroon: How terrible for us that we are kind people now. Haha! Dan Danzy: Yeah… “I miss the old days ,when emotions were raw!” Haha. KiKi Maroon: Oh, I don’t! Oh my god. One of the things that I – I’m mentioning therapy a lot in this particular episode – one of the things that my therapist told me was-  So, I was being sad about how I feel really lonely a lot of the time. Especially because I still go to parties and do shows and all kinds of stuff, so if I’m around a lot of people and I’m the only sober person there, it’s really lonely, you know? I was telling her, “I just feel lonely.” Dan Danzy: I feel bored. I’m not so much lonely, I’m just bored. KiKi Maroon: Maybe that’s just the codependent in me. Haha. I don’t know, but I just feel very lonely a lot of the time. And she was like, “Yeah, but were you connecting with people when you were blackout all the time?” And I was like, “Well, I mean… it felt like it… I don’t know.” She’s like, “You weren’t then either, it’s just easy to romanticize because you didn’t feel your feelings then. Now you’re feeling it. It wasn’t any better back then.” And I was like, “Yeah, I think you’re right.” Dan Danzy: Probably the same thing with me and fun. I drank and that’s what made the whole social experience fun. But now, I’m extremely bored. KiKi Maroon: So what do you doto fight that boredom? Dan Danzy: I play video games.  KiKi Maroon: Oh, okay. Dan Danzy: I just play video games. KiKi Maroon: You have a Twitch (live streaming platform for gamers)? Dan Danzy: I do!  KiKi Maroon: What is it? Dan Danzy: Twitch.tv/rednebulapictures. Me and my fiancé do a show called “Nerd Alert” where we talk about nerd culture every Friday. And then, I just stream video games that I think are going to be fun. And then, I’m talking to people from all over the world.  KiKi Maroon: Oh, that’s cool! Dan Danzy:  That part has helped me find a new place to go instead of my comedy scene. Or like – and I sound terrible – but my friendship circles. Sometimes I don’t want to go out.  KiKi Maroon: No, it’s not terrible. Dan Danzy: Just to interact with people from all over the world over a specific video game. And what I like about it is, I’ve got a friend who lives in the UK – Cloud, shout-out if you’re listening! – we bonded over this one video game. It’s just somebody from the completely opposite end of the world.  KiKi Maroon: You have a place to visit now! Dan Danzy: Yeah, exactly! A place to visit, a person to visit, all these things. And it’s like that with everybody. Got a guy over in Missouri named David, his wife’s expecting, I know that about him and he knows stuff about me. He knows that I’m almost sober for four years and he knows my fiancé and he’s in there. It’s just a great place to interact with people.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah, you found a different way to connect with people. Dan Danzy: I found a different way to connect with people. Yeah. KiKi Maroon: That’s awesome! Dan Danzy: And then they support my comedy! So if I’m ever in their town or whatever, boom, you know. I don’t need to do one-nighters in a bar for $20. I can just stream on Twitch and then boom. KiKi Maroon: You go up there though, if you’ve got a show in Missouri or whatever, you’ve got built-in people who will come. That’s awesome! Dan Danzy: Yeah. One thing I noticed with sobering up was how late you are up at night because your body is so used to being drunk at that time and it’s rewiring itself. So it was like at three o’clock in the morning, I decided to stream Final Fantasy 7, and I just met people. And then it was like, “Oh, I’m going to do this tomorrow night!” You know?  KiKi Maroon: How cool! Dan Danzy: It just turned into this, “Now I know people from here!” My T-shirt, that I get Tuesday, is designed by a dude I met on Twitch.  KiKi Maroon: Oh my god! Dan Danzy: And I do a podcast with him on Twitch. He’s a filmmaker, his name is Will, he’s a great guy. But I would never get that type of situation in real life, I feel. Because I’m not really social in real life. And now with the Twitch channel, it went from just streaming on my PlayStation to now I have two monitors, I have a green screen behind me.  KiKi Maroon: Oh, fancy pants! Dan Danzy: I know! Well, there’s this program now where, theoretically if you had the content, the channels are now a network where like, if I had 24 hours’ worth of just comedy, just sketches or stand-up, I can just broadcast that – not even have to be in front of the camera. KiKi Maroon: Oh, how cool! Have you heard of a paper called “1,000 True Fans” (by Kevin Kelly)? Dan Danzy: I’ve heard of it, but I don’t know why. KiKi Maroon: It’s a thing that gets shared a lot. This guy that wrote about how there are millions of people – you just need a thousand of them. You need a thousand of them that care about what you do. And that it’s such a tiny, tiny, minuscule amount. But if you can get a thousand people to spend $100 on you within a year, a $20 shirt here, a $5 thing there, whatever, you’re bringing in six figures! So that in this new economy that we have now, a very hustle economy – it is so much more accessible to become a six-figure-making artist, just get 1,000 people that give a shit about what you do. And $100 over a whole year is nothing.  Dan Danzy: That’s such a big number though, to make people give a shit! Haha. KiKi Maroon: How many people are on your Facebook? Dan Danzy: 1823. KiKi Maroon: That is a very specific number! You know that?! Haha. Dan Danzy: I looked at it today. Haha. Because someone deleted me today. You know, it’s been one of those days on Facebook. I’m pretty sure half of my Facebook’s dead. Like, 1800…? I was just like, “Someone’s got to be dead.” KiKi Maroon: Oh my god. Dan Danzy: I just haven’t seen it on my timeline. KiKi Maroon: A thousand is not a lot with the kind of connections that you’re talking about making, the viewership that you can get on that thing. A thousand people, globally, giving a shit about what you dois not a lot. It really isn’t. Dan Danzy: Yeah. That’s true. There are like 8 billion people in the world. KiKi Maroon: Yeah! And it’s also like, I mean, you do… how big is Hyena’s (Dallas comedy club)? What’s the capacity? Dan Danzy: Which club? KiKi Maroon: Y’all have two here? Dan Danzy: No, there are three. KiKi Maroon: Fuck! Really?! Dan Danzy: Yeah, there’s one in Plano, Fort Worth, and Dallas. KiKi Maroon: Goddamn it. You know, we have one club in Houston? Sorry, one and a half. Dan Danzy: When I was around, doing comedy in Beaumont and Houston, 13 years ago, nearly 14 years ago, there was the Laff Stop, the Comedy Showcase, the Improv. I feel like I’m leaving one out. There might have been another one. KiKi Maroon: Did you do Slade Ham’s club in Beaumont? Dan Danzy: That’s where I started! KiKi Maroon: Shut the fuck up! Dan Danzy: That’s where I started! KiKi Maroon: Oh my god. That’s so funny! Dan Danzy: Me and Justin Thompson are the only ones left from that club. KiKi Maroon: Shut up! Oh my god. I’ve known Slade for years. I actually was on his podcast. Dan Danzy: The Whiskey Brothers! Sam (Demaris) and Rob (Mungle) and everything. KiKi Maroon: I was the girl! Haha. Dan Danzy: Ahh! That’s you?  KiKi Maroon: That’s me! Dan Danzy: I didn’t even realize this whole time that was you! KiKi Maroon: Yeah, hi!  Dan Danzy: Hi! Haha. KiKi Maroon: Haha. Oh my god! See, we keep having these circles, small world.  I’ve known Slade for years! Dan Danzy: He could just pound Guinesses.  KiKi Maroon: Oh yeah. Dan Danzy: We used to have a joke that he had a black hole in his liver. KiKi Maroon: Haha more like a black hole in his heart! It’s funny – I was on The Whiskey Brothers podcast post-sobriety. So, it did not make a lot of sense. But I just didn’t take shots with them. I can talk shit sober! I was just the only one who didn’t drink. So it was weird. I knew him through out all that blackout time, but I didn’t join the podcast until after I stopped drinking. Dan Danzy: Okay so you were sober? Because he’s offered me to come down and do an episode. KiKi Maroon: Oh you should! Dan Danzy: I know. But I was just…  KiKi Maroon: You can do it and not drink. Dan Danzy: Yeah okay. Because I shook my head, “yes,” like, “Oh yeah.” But like in my head, I’m like, “He’s going to make me drink, because it’s funny to him.” Do you know what I mean?  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. No. Okay, moving on… Dan Danzy: No, let’s keep going! Haha. KiKi Maroon: Nah, I’m not giving him this podcast too! Haha. Dan Danzy: Haha! I’m just kidding.  KiKi Maroon: So okay, we’ve got to back up! So you were going to the counselors, you decided to quit, you quit. Did you quit successfully that time or were there a couple of relapses? Dan Danzy: There was one relapse. It was a show in Houston, ironically.  KiKi Maroon: Oh, goddammit! Dan Danzy: I don’t know why to this day, why I drank. It was just, well…  you never knew; you never knew. I remember getting there and I had a couple of Shiner beers. I don’t even think there was any reason for it, it just happened. And I’m with my now fiancé. We had been together, at this point, for just a couple of months. And…. I had the worst set ever! Repeating jokes and everything. But anyway, I woke up on my couch in Dallas. My fiancé had driven us home after the show.  KiKi Maroon: Oh wow. Dan Danzy: Because apparently, there was a situation. I don’t remember, but I woke up to a Facebook message from some lady I had offended. I guess I made a joke she didn’t like, and I kept going at her for not liking it, which any comic will do! But when you’re drunk, it comes off mean-spirited. And this lady had just gotten out of a mental institution because she had tried to commit suicide or something, if I’m remembering that correctly. And I just remember going, “God fucking dammit. Of course when I relapse, this is what happens.”  KiKi Maroon: Really shoving that lesson in your face. Dan Danzy: Then I got the fiancé next to me going, “If you ever get like that again, I’m gone.” And I was just like, “Well, how was the set? How did I do?” Haha. “It was terrible.” And I remember somebody took a picture. After you do a comedy show and there’s a camera person, they send you the photo. And I can just see from the photo that I was absolutely gone. So I count that as my sobriety date. Some people are like, “My sobriety date is March. I relapsed in April, but you know…” It’s also a reason I’m not anonymous. Do you know what I mean? I’m not anonymous about my alcoholism. I think that putting yourself out there and holding yourself accountable and telling everyone, “Hey, I’m an alcoholic.” I think that holds you to a better standard. KiKi Maroon: Yes,I understandthe idea of the anonymous thing is that if somebody else gets sober because they look up to that somebody, and then that person relapsing then relapsing seems fine. That’s the idea. And so I understand that. But I also think it’s a – I don’t want to say dated – but… we live in such a connected, online…  Dan Danzy: Nothing’s private anymore! KiKi Maroon: Nothing’s private. And so if you choose to keep only that one thing private, you are not helping so many people who need that example.  Dan Danzy: Yeah. KiKi Maroon: And then I feel like they think it is something to hide. Dan Danzy: Yeah. It’s one of the reasons I kind of backed away from the major 12-step program that everyone goes to when they get sober. I backed away from that because I’m being honest in a group about what I do with stand-up comedy and stuff. And the guy running it was just like, “Well, you know, whenever you mention A.A., just say, ‘12-step program.’” I respect them. But now thinking about the conversation, it just made me say, “Screw it.” So they said, “When you mention A.A., say, ‘12-step program,’” like when Lindsay Lohan relapsed.  I was just like, “Well, I’m not Lindsay Lohan.” They said, “When Lindsay Lohan relapsed, it came out that she’s in A.A. and it just makes it look like we don’t work for people.” KiKi Maroon: No, it looks like Lindsay Lohan doesn’t work! Dan Danzy: But at the same time, it’s just, “Well, yeah, you’re not going to work for everybody.” You know, it’s a very arrogant thing to be like, “we work for everyone.”  KiKi Maroon: I think it’s just one person saying that, like that was one person who told you that, I don’t know. Dan Danzy: Well, but if you’ve ever read The Big Book (basic text for Alcoholics Anonymous), it’s just kind of as outdated as the Bible. I’m not trying to get religious, but there are some things in the Bible like, “Hey, don’t eat shrimp.” Come on now. Haha. KiKi Maroon: Haha Dan Danzy: And in The Big Book, there are just some things, like references to women, in there and it’s like, “This is… ehhh. This is a little…” KiKi Maroon: Definitely. There was one chapter I skipped after a couple of paragraphs about, the “what to do if your husband’s an alcoholic,” Dan Danzy: I have a group chat of people and that’s our meeting. I’ve got my friends that are trying to get sober themselves. I have my own little group chat of people I went to high school with, or people that used to do comedy that don’t do it anymore. “Hey, how was everybody’s day-to-day?” Try to keep up-to-date, like every week, every couple of weeks. I find that to be more effective because we’re very supportive of each other.  KiKi Maroon: Because you actually know each other. Dan Danzy: We actually know each other. If someone’s crying, you don’t know it. Haha. Because a lot of people that I’ve noticed in meetings, they’re holding their emotions in. And sometimes you just go in there and you get bummed out, you know? Have you ever done that? KiKi Maroon: You know, I’m actually the one who’s bumming people out. Haha. Dan Danzy: Haha. You’re the bummer? KiKi Maroon: I’m usually the bummer! No, but… Okay, so I would only go when stuff felt like it was spiraling and I was in a bad place. And I would think, “You know what? I need a meeting.” It wasn’t even that I wanted to drink, just feeling depressed, feeling lonely, or whatever. I needed to connect. I would go and I never really talk, but I would feel better afterwards. And so a friend of mine suggested going regularly, finding a home meeting. That way it’s not a parachute for me anymore, it’s more of a consistent upkeep.  Dan Danzy: Yeah. KiKi Maroon: And so, I’ve been going, not depressed. And I was like, “Oh! This is fine!” I just associated meetings with various sad, somber feelings. But that’s because I was sad and somber, every time I went there. If I just went as a person, everybody was really nice. And we were having regular conversations and all that. I actually spoke for the first time at one, because I didn’t feel like I was holding in tears. So I’ve been normal there and it’s been very helpful for me. But that’s just personal preference.  Dan Danzy: That helps you. Well I’m just too negative. KiKi Maroon: But I don’t have a group chat. I don’t have friends that don’t drink. That’s the point of the podcast. I don’t have people to personally connect with, so I need meetings to get that thing. You have that, which is awesome. Dan Danzy: Well, despite my negativity, yeah. KiKi Maroon: Haha. You say that a lot. I don’t feel any negativity from you. Dan Danzy: You don’t know me! Haha. Give it a month. “Wow. He just hates everything.” KiKi Maroon: “He just sucks so bad.” Hahaha Dan Danzy: I think that was another reason why I drank, because I wanted to have fun with things and not be so negative, but the negativity drives the material.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah, it’s inherent.  Dan Danzy: The negativity is what makes me right, you know? So I have to constantly be making fun of things. Constantly poking holes. KiKi Maroon: Do you remember the first time you went onstage sober? Dan Danzy: Yeah. It was fine. KiKi Maroon: You were fine? Was it weird? Dan Danzy: Because, at that point, I’d been doing comedy now for close to a decade.  KiKi Maroon: Okay.  Dan Danzy: So nothing I did onstage was the problem; there was never a problem there.  KiKi Maroon: Okay. Dan Danzy: It was everything offstage. It was management having to deal with this animal. And then the animal can just flip on the switch and he’s fine, he can do circus tricks. But as soon as that animal comes offstage, it’s like, “Okay, we got to make sure he doesn’t pass out before the crowd leaves.” You know? KiKi Maroon: Wow, okay. Dan Danzy: “We’ve got to make sure he stays upright. We’ve got to make sure he doesn’t get into an argument with another comic on the show.”  KiKi Maroon: Like, Weekend at Bernie’s with you. Haha. Dan Danzy: Yeah, yeah. Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde type of thing.  KiKi Maroon: Okay. Dan Danzy: So when I got up onstage sober, it was like, “Oh, okay. Yeah. I know how to do this. This is just like riding a bike to me.” KiKi Maroon: Jealous! Jealous. Dan Danzy:  I mean, honestly, and I’m going to bring him up again – it’s from what Slade taught me. It’s from what Caroline Picard (comedian, “The Cajun Queen”) taught me. They taught me at a young age, when I wasn’t drinking, so that was instilled in my brain. But it was never knowing when to stop, not being able to stop, I would have these problems off the stage with other comics or with management, popping off at the mouth with things I shouldn’t say. KiKi Maroon: Do the clubs that you’re not allowed to go to know that you’re sober now? Have you gotten a second chance? Dan Danzy: Oh yeah!I went from being banned at Hyena’s to now, I’ll be featuring in September.  KiKi Maroon: Oh, okay! Okay, good! Good. Dan Danzy: I went from not getting any work at the Improv to being runner-up at the Funniest Comic in Texas, and opening the Improvs now.  KiKi Maroon: Awesome! Dan Danzy: And I got moved up to feature at the Improv, actually. KiKi Maroon: Oh wow! Awesome. Dan Danzy: I’ve always had this ability, but I was holding myself back with my offstage behavior and my offstage drinking. But now, it’s a good feeling to have now. I no longer have to walk with a chip on my shoulder. I’ve been able to prove it.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Dan Danzy: I’ve been able to prove this is what I’m worth. This is what I can do. If you hate anything about me offstage, “Well, at least he’s not drinking.” They know that now. “Yeah, he’s negative. But man, it’s hard for a feature to follow him.” That was when I was emceeing: hard for a feature to follow me, “he brings the funny.” KiKi Maroon: That’s awesome! Dan Danzy: So now it’s like, “Okay, I’m featuring. Now, can I make it to where a headliner can’t follow me?” I’m never comfortable at where I am on the show. I never am. I want to make it to where no one can follow me.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Dan Danzy: So like right now, I’m a feature. Cool! I want to move to the headliner immediately. Because I’m bored. Haha! KiKi Maroon: Haha, I was going to say, that sounds like what led to these problems. The wanting of more, more, more, more, more. But that’s fine, you just found the positive side of it. Dan Danzy: You just focus it on different things. Because I really, truly believe that alcoholism is just a form of addiction; that we aren’t “alcoholics”, we’re just addicts. KiKi Maroon: Yeah.Oh yeah, absolutely. Yes. Dan Danzy: It’s just that we are not gutsy enough to try crack cocaine. I’m too scared! The only reason I did cocaine was because I could drink more. I could hold more. You know, I never got the whole rush from it. Like, you know, cleaning your apartment all of a sudden. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Dan Danzy: It was just, I was able to drink more without vomiting. And then, weed was fun for a little bit. But now I can’t even smoke it anymore because I get really paranoid and anxious.  KiKi Maroon: That’s how I am. Dan Danzy: Yeah KiKi Maroon: I quit smoking way before I quit drinking. I was a super, super pothead. And then it was like, “I’m just anxious and paranoid and I hate this feeling.” And I tried so many times, “Maybe I’ll try this strain or that strain.”  Dan Danzy:  Yes! KiKi Maroon: Because I still wanted it, but it just didn’t work. Dan Danzy: These young comics don’t understand what I’m going through when I tell them that! They’re like, “No, you need an indica. You need this Sparkly Baby Kush.” KiKi Maroon: No, something happens to your brain – some people’s brains – and it just doesn’t do it anymore. It’s not fun at all. Dan Danzy: It was helping me with depression.  KiKi Maroon: Really? Dan Danzy: Now I’m finding, it’s just easier to go through depression. It really is just easier to go through it. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, just be sad for a while. Dan Danzy: Eh, just be sad. I find when I’m done with the depression, I’m writing better material when it’s all over because I’ve sat there. I’ve thought about just things to make myself laugh.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Dan Danzy: Even when I’m depressed, I’m not laughing at it, but I’m like, “Oh, that’s funny.” KiKi Maroon: “This is going to be good.” Dan Danzy: “Yeah, that’ll work. This is going to be good.” KiKi Maroon: I’m super grateful to be in that place where, even if I have just the worst fucking shit going on, I’m like, “This is going to be really good to talk about.”  Dan Danzy: Yeah, yeah. Exactly.  KiKi Maroon: So, I have a final question that I ask on every podcast : If you could snap your fingers and people around the world instantly believed two things, what would they be and why? The only caveat is that one has to be good for humanity. The other has to be completely selfish and self-serving. Dan Danzy: Okay. So the first thing that would be good for humanity is that everybody knows and everybody understands that we are not alone in the universe. The second thing that is completely self-serving… self-serving, wow. If more people recognized that My Chemical Romance was the greatest band ever! KiKi Maroon: How is this self-serving? Dan Danzy: Because they’re my favorite band. KiKi Maroon: But that’s great for them! Dan Danzy: I like to feel like I’m part of the band sometimes, KiKi. That’s how much I love them. KiKi Maroon: Haha. That’s fine. I’m not going to judge you! Dan Danzy: Well then, that people should buy my shirt! KiKi Maroon: There you go! Thank you, Dan, for being a part of this. I really appreciate it. You were great! Dan Danzy: Thank you, KiKi, for having me. [Theme song: “Last Call” provided by The Last Domino] KiKi Maroon: That was Dan Danzy! He has a Twitch channel where he streams all kinds of fun video games and comedy stuff at twitch.tv/rednebulapictures. I’ll put a link in the show notes. He also has a bunch of super cool “Nerd Alert” merch there. So please, check it out!  Dan saying that he’s never comfortable, always wanting more because he’s bored, is something that I really related to. I started this episode telling you about the circus show. I want it to be bigger, bigger, bigger! That’s all I ever want! I don’t try to hide that, since I quit drinking, I’ve become a major workaholic. For a long time, I was okay with that – more than okay, I was proud of it. Like, “If I’m going to have this dysfunction, I might as well use it to be awesome!” Except now… I don’t think that’s true. Much like drinking, being a workaholic began as something I thought I was managing, but then turned into something that’s really controlling me. I love my work. I really, really do, but I feel guilty when I’m not working – really guilty. It doesn’t matter if I’ve been in front of the computer for 10 hours, the second I walk away, I feel like I’m doing something wrong. And that’s not okay. It’s the same sickness that led to years of the depression and blackouts. It’s just taken another form. It’s a shape-shifting motherfucker! I don’t have an answer. I’m just being honest about where I’m at right now. And it’s not just work. It’s like different things, like the filing cabinet that we talked about. I’m seeing all these other places where my life is affected by this. Things that seemed unrelated to my addictions, but are all very related. They are, at the end of the day, signs of an unhealthy mind. It’s okay. I know I’ll figure it out, but until then, let’s keep in touch! You can always find me on Twitter @KiKiMaroon or on Instagram. The stuff for this podcast is @ClownPod. Or if you want to see my live shows, comedy, all that stuff, that’s on Instagram @KiKiMaroon. And of course, you can join me on Patreon! Patreon is a super cool place where you can show your support for the show, sending anywhere between $1 a month or $1,000 a month! Haha. No one’s done that one – yet! It’s just a cool way to help keep the show running. And there’s more info on that in the show notes. And whether you want to call it a donation or a tip, it’s greatly appreciated! And as always, I want to thank The Last Domino for use of his song “Last Call.” He’s actually celebrating his 10-year music-versary this month, so go send congratulations to him! And thank you so much! I hope you guys have a great week. [Theme song: “Last Call” provided by The Last Domino]

I always describe this podcast as me talking to artists and performers “who live and work in party scenes”. This week, I talk to someone with a very different experience. Jef Rouner is an author and a journalist. We’ve known of each other for several years, but I did not know he was sober until he contacted me to write an article about this podcast for the Houston Chronicle. I might be biased, but I think it was the best headline ever written: “Stripping clown explores sobriety, one podcast at a time”. Yup. That’s me! Being an author isn’t typically associated with a party lifestyle, unless you’re Hunter S. Thompson (but that guy partied enough for everyone, ever). However, addiction is still an issue within that community. It is, as Jef called it, a creative isolationist culture. We discuss internet bullying, the science of dopamine, and fake love. I hope you enjoy it! If you’d like more info on some of the stuff we discuss, here are the links: Wickedly Abled: an anthology featuring Jef’s short stories Stripping clown explores sobriety one podcast at a time Jef’s interview with Art Alexakis of Everclear Horses and other bizarre “treatments” for addiction  Maternal Fetal Stress Transfer (cortisol and adrenal glands) This American Life #474 Back To School (cortisol and adrenaline production and its effects on children)  Hemingway’s interview Clown, Interrupted on Instagram KiKi Maroon on Instagram If you like the podcast, please consider signing up to my Patreon. Your donation helps with the operating cost and is the easiest way to say, “thanks for making this!” The Clown, Interrupted theme song is graciously provided by The Last Domino. You can listen to or purchase the full song HERE. Full Transcript: KiKi Maroon: Welcome back! I hope you’re all doing well. First off, thank you so much for your messages about the last episode. Bobby was so kind and wonderful. I’m glad that even the non-clowns out there related to what he had to say. I’m doing pretty good. Well, no, no, no. I’m not. So here’s something I didn’t factor into sober dating – drunk texts! It’s been so long since I sent one, I forgot they exist! I’ve said several times, I don’t need to date a sober person. It’d be nice so they understand, but it’s not a requirement. I get that most people are normal and can, somehow, control their intake. But I forgot about drunk texts! Y’all gotta quit that shit, man! I’m in a place where I mean what I say. So when I, theoretically, get a late-night text about how wonderful, and kind, and amazing I am. And “I’m falling so hard for you,” from a guy I’ve seen twice, my brain didn’t even register the possibility that this was a drunk text. I was like, “Oh damn. I thought we were just banging.” I spent all night trying to figure out how to reply, should I even reply, and how not to hurt anyone’s feelings, which then turned into, “Am I just running away from real connection? Maybe I should try to open up. He seems nice enough. Don’t fear being vulnerable. Be a grownup. Open your heart!” But the texts kept coming. And they got less and less sensical. Then I got a slurred phone call, and that’s when I realized, “This motherfucker is drunk!” I am two hours into an existential crisis, journaling about my commitment issues and spiraling into anxiety, and he was just partying! Which is fine. Have fun. That’s great. But not at the expense of my sanity. He doesn’t even know this happened, mostly because I just stopped talking to him, like I do. I have a thing about cutting people out of my life. Maybe we’ll get into that. I don’t know. But my issues aside, nobody warned me about this. Texting is a major part of modern dating. So now every time I get a text from a guy – which is often, I’m dating a lot now. I’m very proud of that. A lot has changed from Season One! But now every time I get one, I have to look at what time it is, wonder if this is a peak bar hour, and question, “Is he opening up to me or is he just going to laugh this off tomorrow?” I don’t know.  Did y’all hear that? My stomach just growled. Huh. Maybe I’ll leave that in.  If any of y’all have experience with this, please message me. I don’t want to cut off 90% of the dating pool, but I also don’t know how to navigate this. I don’t have an end to this rant. I am just sharing an unexpected plot twist. I honestly should have asked today’s guest about this because he makes plot twists for a living. I always described this podcast as, “me talking to artists and performers who live and work in party scenes.” But for this week’s episode, I talked to someone who had a way different experience. Jef Rouner is an author and journalist. We’ve known each other for several years, but I didn’t know he was sober until he reached out to me to write an article about this podcast. It was really cool. I was the whole, full front page of the Houston Chronicle  (entertainment section). And I might be biased, but I think it was the best headline ever written – “Stripping Clown Explores Sobriety, One Podcast at a Time.” Yep, that’s me! While being an author isn’t typically associated with the rockstar lifestyle, unless you’re Hunter S. Thompson, who partied enough for everyone ever. Addiction is still an issue within the community because it is, as Jef called it, “a creative isolationist culture.” We discuss internet bullying, the science of dopamine, and fake love, which I could do a whole separate episode on and probably will. I hope you enjoy it. Here’s me and Jef. KiKi Maroon: This is usually the part where I tell my story to people so they understand this podcast is super casual and I explain what my thing is, but you know what my thing is. So this is a little bit different. Jef Rouner: I know way more about you now than you probably know about me. KiKi Maroon: Haha, yeah! Jef Rouner: Stripping clown, flipped your truck, and now you’re wandering around through Houston, finding all the sober weirdos that you can to try to build something out of that. And I applaud you for it. I recommended you so much in group therapy. KiKi Maroon: Really?! Oh, thank you! Jef Rouner: And I had a lot of people that came up to me like, “Wow, she was really interesting!” as if you being boring was the thing that was going to come up! KiKi Maroon: Hahaha! I mean, I get it. Because honestly, that’s why I started the podcast. I was looking at different recovery stuff and a lot of what I personally found was really slow, sad, and kindof boring. And it’s like, “Wow, y’all have a kind of made quitting sound like the worst.” Jef Rouner: I come from a completely different thing, because my mom went through programs. I think about five years ago is when she went through it.  KiKi Maroon: Oh, okay. Jef Rouner: I’m from East Houston, so everybody in her A.A. group is insane. As one of them puts it, “They put the ‘hot’ in ‘psychotic.’”  KiKi Maroon: Hahaha, oh God. Jef Rouner: So she’ll come in like, “Oh God, I had this really weird meeting.” “Okay, what happened?” She’s like, “Well, there’s this one-armed dwarf and former pimp who had some things going down,” and I’m like, “Yeah, that sounds like the definition of ‘things going down.’” KiKi Maroon: Ohh yeah. I once had a threesome with a one-armed girl. Jef Rouner: Oh okay. But not a dwarf? KiKi Maroon: No, not a dwarf. They got me by one. One characteristic away. Jef Rouner: It’s important to have goals, KiKi. Now you have something to aim for. KiKi Maroon: Thank you for suggesting the podcast. I keep saying that I’m going to make little cards and leave them at recovery centers. I just haven’t got around to it. Jef Rouner: I think it would be helpful. It’s one of the things I really love about you, and also other people – like Art Alexakis from the band Everclear, who I’ve interviewed.  KiKi Maroon: That’s awesome! Jef Rouner: He’s 30 years sober – this month, I think. KiKi Maroon: God, that’s so cool.  Jef Rouner: So him, Eliza Dushku, people like that, you really start to find out that a lot of the cool people in the world are making an effort to not drink and to not use. KiKi Maroon: Absolutely. Jef Rouner: But they’re very quiet about it because they don’t want to make people who are still doing things feel bad. KiKi Maroon: Exactly, or be perceived as judgy. Jef Rouner: Or perceived as judgy. So that’s what I like about you, is that… it’s not that you’re making sobriety “cool”… KiKi Maroon: Definitely not doing that! Jef Rouner: But you’re shining a light on people. And I think it’s really good. KiKi Maroon: Oh, thank you! I’m wanting to normalize it. Because when I wanted to quit drinking, I didn’t know anybody who didn’t drink. And I certainly didn’t know random celebrities and rock stars and all that stuff. My understanding was, “Of course everybody blacks out every day.” That’s just what you do. And if you’re cool, even more so. That was really interesting to me as I started to meet more people and started to read articles. I was like, “Oh, there are a lot of amazing, talented, smart, fucking cool-as-shit people who don’t drink.” It then became like, “Oh, duh,” because if you tend to have a lifestyle, perhaps, that is very interesting and crazy, you reach max capacity at some point. So yeah, I want to talk to people and make it okay and normal, and not weird that you don’t drink. Jef Rouner: And one of the things I like about your show is you focus so much on the… you go out to a lot of places that are party atmospheres, you know. You’ve got the burlesque thing. You’ve got the comedy thing. I’m a writer, I’m home by myself. KiKi Maroon: Okay. But it’s still a thing, isn’t it? Like the whole, “Write drunk, edit sober.” Jef Rouner: Every drunken writer thinks they’re Ernest Hemingway. KiKi Maroon: Exactly, it’s part of the culture – of course you’re tortured and have problems. Right? Jef Rouner: Exactly, and I was a journalist too. So I’d go over to Houston Press and pick up my paycheck and come home with a bottle that they would just give me.  KiKi Maroon: I believe it. Jef Rouner: So it’s very isolationist, which as you know as well – you can be surrounded by people and you can still feel very isolated. And so drinking can do that. But you know, once I was full-time and I was home all the time- nothing’s there to stop you but your willpower. And if a sufficient number of events occur that make you start drinking to get away from them, then… I mean, it’s just there and that’s all you are. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, it’s easy. Jef Rouner: And it was easy to justify myself because I’ve written amazing things while completely plastered. I’ve literally won awards for articles that were not written sober. And that’s amazing and great, you know, but it’s like the old joke with people who say, “Oh, I smoke pot so that I’ll be like the Beatles.” You’re not going to toke up and bust out ‘Sergeant Pepper,’ y’all. So I mean, there was always a justification. It’s like, “Oh well, you know, I’ve done great writing while I’m drunk. So I should keep drinking to write.” But nah, I’ve done some horrible things too. KiKi Maroon: And it’s just easy. It’s easier to believe that. Okay, so currently you’re at Houston Chronicle. Jef Rouner: I am a freelance writer for Houston Chronicle, Houston Press, anybody who’ll really cut me a check.  KiKi Maroon: Got it! Jef Rouner: And I am an author and a short story writer as well. KiKi Maroon: How long have you been a writer? Jef Rouner: I started writing about 11 or 12 years ago. I actually ran the only weekly Rocky Horror newsletter in the country.  KiKi Maroon: Okay… Haha. Jef Rouner: That’s something that me and a girl who used to run the Rocky Horror Picture Show events down here in Houston decided we were going to do, to give out as a freebie. I published a newsletter and it was the only one in the country for a while. And then later in life, I kind of let it go as I started playing rock star. But when that stopped happening, I contacted the Houston Press to see if they wanted writers because I didn’t have money to go see Peter Murphy. KiKi Maroon: Hahaha! So you were like, “Let me interview him”? Jef Rouner: I said, “I’ll give you 500 words if you just let me go to the show for free.” And that is literally all I did to become a journalist. KiKi Maroon: Shut up! Jef Rouner: People are like, “Did you go to school for journalism?” It’s like, “Nope! Bullshitted my way in 110%!” KiKi Maroon: Oh my God. Okay. So going back to the weekly Rocky Horror newsletter. How is there weekly news – – about Rocky Horror?! Because you’re talking about not that long ago. Jef Rouner: I mean, you would sit there and you would write up like, “Oh, it’s Richard O’Brien’s (writer of the musical stage show The Rocky Horror Show in 1973) birthday. Here’s a thing about his life. Here’s some trivia about Rocky Horror. Here’s a review of some stuff…” It was just like a four-page thing. KiKi Maroon: Four pages?! Weekly?! There are only so many birthdays a year! Jef Rouner: KiKi, I am a person who once wrote a thousand words on “The Top Five Farts in Video Games.” Okay? I could make anything go. KiKi Maroon: Wait, wait, wait. Sorry, this is very confusing for me because on one hand, I hate restroom humor so much. And I do not talk about restroom things. But I feel that I cannot leave that alone. What the fuck?! Jef Rouner: For a while there, you know, because you’re freelance – everything you do is per article. And when you have a wife who’s going to nursing school, you’re providing all the money. So I would work full-time and I would write while I was doing it. And at one point, I was turning in 30 articles a week. KiKi Maroon: Wow! Jef Rouner: And when you do that, horrible ideas seem really great. So my editor went off on vacation, which meant I had no restrictions. So I just started turning stuff in and nobody would question me. When she came back, she said, “Video game farts, Jef? Really?!” I’m like, “Don’t even pretend you would not have approved that.” KiKi Maroon: But, okay – why? Jef Rouner: Just because I saw a funny fart video about a video game and I thought, “I could make money off of this.” KiKi Maroon: Without going into details – from number five to number one. Jef Rouner: Abe’s Odyssey, you could use farts to move key characters from one side of the screen to another. KiKi Maroon: No details. Just the games. Jef Rouner: Abe’s Odyssey, Smash Brothers – yeah, Wario farts in that. KiKi Maroon: Okay. Jef Rouner: And I forget the rest; it was a long time ago. I’ve written a lot of stupid articles. KiKi Maroon: Jesus. Okay. Moving on. Weekly Rocky Horror writer… Hahaha.  Jef Rouner: So I did that. Then I become a real journalist and won awards and did investigative stuff. And now I mostly work on my books and stuff. KiKi Maroon: Okay. Jef Rouner: And occasionally I talk to stripping clowns! KiKi Maroon: Yes! Haha. Oh, goodness. Sorry. This is just so much information flying at me right now. You have been freelance for how long? Jef Rouner: About 11 years now. KiKi Maroon: Oh wow, okay. Jef Rouner: And I still get so nervous. When I did a phone interview earlier today, I had to sit on my hands because they shook so badly. I can’t take notes. I have to record everything and write it later on. KiKi Maroon: Oh, really? Jef Rouner: I never stop being nervous. I’m nervous talking to you and I’ve known you for about five years. KiKi Maroon: Really? Oh no, don’t be nervous. That’s fine. We’re just talking. So you’ve been a writer for a long time. If you’re not in a party-party scene, you don’t have any comparison. How did you realize you had a problem then? Jef Rouner: I mean, I realized I had a problem the way a lot of people do. The way a lot of quiet people who are at home do, and that’s… I hurt the people I love because I could not stop. The basic thing that happened was, I used to cover – and I still do a lot – I would cover the alt-right scene. The Gamergate people, all of this burgeoning neo-fascist movement in America. And as you get good at that, you get their attention. And what happened was Breitbart News came after me and came after my then seven-year-old daughter. KiKi Maroon: Oh my God. Jef Rouner: So, I mean I went from getting about one death threat a day, which is pretty normal… KiKi Maroon: Okay… Jef Rouner: …for writing about neo-Nazis and stuff like that- I went from getting one a day to getting one a minute. KiKi Maroon: Oh my God. Jef Rouner: They put my daughter’s face on the front of Breitbart. KiKi Maroon: Shut up! Jef Rouner: And I had to call the Harris County Sheriff’s Office to come out and let them know that they were probably gonna swat me. And they never did. KiKi Maroon: What is “swatting”? Jef Rouner: “Swatting” is when you call in a fake bomb threat or domestic situation so that they send the SWAT team and hopefully come in with all guns blazing. I’ve had friends whose dogs have been shot.  KiKi Maroon: Oh my God. Jef Rouner: There was one guy whose baby’s nose was blown off by a flash grenade. So I was terrified, you know, my daughter still can’t play outside because her picture’s been on the cover of this right-wing hate site. KiKi Maroon: Oh my God. Jef Rouner: So all that happened. KiKi Maroon: Didn’t a guy just go to jail for that? There were some gamers that kept calling SWAT teams on each other? Jef Rouner: Yeah a couple. They’ve started taking some people to jail, but even in high profile cases like Anita Sarkeesian (founder of Feminist Frequency, a website that analyzes portrayals of women in popular culture) or Zoë Quinn (video game developer subjected to extensive harassment), people where the FBI got involved. I mean, it’s illegal, but you only get six months in jail. And most police departments won’t dedicate resources to it. So there’s no stopping it.  KiKi Maroon: Oh, wow. Jef Rouner: Since then, me and a couple of other people have built up a network of how to deal with it. But emotionally, professionals aren’t prepared for it. When I was in the hospital in rehab, I walked out on three therapists who just could not seem to grasp that you can’t get the internet to forgive you.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Jef Rouner: It’s this faceless thing that never ends. And so I became very scared. I developed some PTSD from it and I started drinking more and more during the day. And then, you know, at one point you realize you can’t stop. KiKi Maroon: Oh, wow. I didn’t realize all that. That’s intense! Jef Rouner: Yeah. And you know, it becomes the way you deal with it. And again, you’re alone all the time. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, and even more so, because you’re fucking scared to do anything! Jef Rouner: Every time somebody would come up on the street and recognize me, because my picture’s on my byline, so they’re like, “Oh, you’re Jef Rouner from the Houston Press.” I flinch because, “Do they like me? Or are they going to start calling me a ‘cuck’ and telling me that they want Muslims to rape my daughter or something?” KiKi Maroon: Oh my God. Jef Rouner: So… why did I start drinking? Just because I thought it was normal. But why was I unable to stop? Because I went through emotional, severe trauma and didn’t have a way to deal with it. KiKi Maroon: Wow. Soooo… one time, a very small group of people came after me because I posted an email from Comicpalooza (comic book convention in Houston). It was a very small group of people with multiple accounts, who started the hashtag #SluttyMcNobody Jef Rouner: Oh, Lord. KiKi Maroon: …to which my friend [Outlaw] Dave (legendary on-air personality) said, “You’re not a nobody!” Hahaha Completely not joking. I will never forgive him for, because it was fucking hilarious. Jef Rouner: It’s nice to have defenders. Haha. KiKi Maroon: That only lasted about a week, but it was a mindfuck. I didn’t want to work. I work online – I work on my computer, everything is marketing, social media, all that stuff. And I couldn’t work. I didn’t want to open up any of my things because it would just be hundreds of notifications from people calling me a whore and sharing things. I also gave them a little bit more power than they actually had, in my head, I was like, “What if they hack my computer and find things?” But they didn’t have the capability. They didn’t know what the fuck they were doing. But yeah, that was just one week of stuff and it fucked with me. So I can’t even imagine that, and with your daughter and everything. Jef Rouner: It was absolutely terrifying. I’ve seen people in that same sphere who get targeted by these groups, the Chan boards (anonymous subculture boards, linked to alt-right controversies) and the Redditors (anonymous social news aggregation website) and everything like that. And a lot of them do have problems. A lot of them drank too much. Mental health professionals are not yet really equipped to deal with that sort of thing. KiKi Maroon: They’re not caught up, honestly. Jef Rouner: They’re not caught up. They don’t understand it. I mean, as Zoë Quinn said, “If you try to bring suit against these people, you’re lucky if you’ve got a judge who knows what ‘Twitter’ is.” KiKi Maroon: Exactly, yeah. Jef Rouner: So as you said, it’s all encompassing. I mean, I had to get an automated bot (software application) to start blocking people. My block list across social media is nearly 60,000 people. KiKi Maroon: Wow! Is that just based on keywords, or how does that work? Jef Rouner: It’s linked to hashtags. I don’t actually know howit works, a friend of mine developed it. KiKi Maroon: Okay, that’s interesting. Jef Rouner: And she was going to explain it to me, but I didn’t pay attention. KiKi Maroon: Haha. It was like, “I don’t care. Just make it stop.” Jef Rouner: Just make it stop. So yeah that’s how the drinking got out of hand. And then once it had a hold of me… You know, every alcoholic has that moment where you’ve crossed the line. Where you no longer have the control. And once you cross that line, there’s no getting back from it. KiKi Maroon: What happened that made you realize that you had crossed that line? Jef Rouner: I had a really good week where I thought I had beaten things and everything was brighter and I was stronger and I was so proud of myself. I was so proud of myself, that I lied when I said I was going to an A.A. meeting. I went and got a bottle of vodka and poured it into one of those giant 44 oz Coke Zeros you get from Whataburger. I came home, I got drunk, and I passed out. And when I woke up, my wife told me that I needed to go somewhere. And I gave up, you know? I think that there’s a reason the first step in the whole 12-step thing is “surrender.” It’s when you stop lying to yourself that you have any control over it. When I was in rehab, I saw all kinds of people like, “Oh, this is my second time through.” “Well, what happened the first time?” “Oh, I thought I could beat it for a while, and then went back.” And you know, I’m the Hermione Granger of rehab. So I was just sitting there, learning from everybody else’s mistakes, doing all the workbooks and stuff they gave me, and staying up late  to finish homework. So, I mean, really all that happened was I just lost the illusion that I was ever going to beat it on my own, that I was ever going to be in control. KiKi Maroon: Wow. I am starting over because… so I only recently got The Big Book (basic text for Alcoholics Anonymous) maybe four or five months ago. About halfway through, I reached out to somebody that I asked to be my sponsor and he said no. He said that I needed a female sponsor and explained to me why you have to have somebody who understands your point of view . And I was like, “Well I don’t trust anybody. So I guess I don’t have a sponsor.” And he said, “Well, I’ll be your sober buddy. First thing, start with step one.” And I was like, “No, no, no, no, you don’t understand. I’m already halfway through. I already got through all the steps and then the book keeps going and I’m just in that part.” And he’s like, “Go back to step one. Read that and we’re going to work on that.” And the defeat that I felt, where I was like, “I’m already on page 400,” or whatever it was and like, “I’m all the way over here!” But the reality was- I didn’t do any of it. Jef Rouner: Right. KiKi Maroon: I would just read, read, read, read, read – “Okay I’m fixed.” But I wasn’t working any of it. So I know that you’ve actively worked the steps, correct? Jef Rouner: I got started while I was in rehab. And I do credit A.A. with getting me back on track. I did not complete the steps. I quit around step three.  KiKi Maroon: Haha, okay! Jef Rouner: But I did work on it! I’ve still got a notebook at home full of everything I did about it. There’s a book called “Beyond Mystery: Simplifying & Demystifying Twelve Step Recovery” by E.M. James, which I would recommend you get, but it’s almost impossible to get. I just happened to stumble across it in a used bookstore, a signed copy from a hundred-print run of it. But the thing that I really got from that book, that I got more from than any of the A.A. material, was that A.A. is really bad at helping you deal with things that are not your fault. For dealing with things that are your fault, for the mistakes that you’ve made and continued to make, A.A. is great. And it’s an amazing journey that I think a lot of people should go on. But just as I had talked about how mental health professionals aren’t necessarily equipped to deal with certain problems, A.A. is not a replacement for therapy, which I think a lot of people use it for. KiKi Maroon: Oh, absolutely. Which I think is good in some aspects. I will tell people that it’s free therapy because a lot of people cannot afford to get help. And so I’m like, “You have something. At least find a connection with other people.” Jef Rouner: And that’s why it’s become what it is. That’s why you can get assigned to what is arguably a religious organization from the court. It’s not necessarily because A.A. is terribly effective. It’s yes and no, but it’s free. And nobody wants to put any money into fixing people with addiction problems. When I was in rehab – and that was really, really hard to do – you found all these people who had loss in their life. They had pain in their life. They had, you know, big aching bits. And we went through group therapy, solo therapy, and the A.A. stuff. All put together, it helps you rebuild yourself.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Jef Rouner: But I understand why a lot of people just try to go to A.A. without that deep deprivation that I went through; why it doesn’t work for them. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. It’s definitely not for everybody. And that’s why I like to talk to people who’ve done different things on the podcast because I get that there are a million ways to get sober. And there is no one correct way to do the thing. I think that from what I’ve noticed, a lot of them boil down to you having to figure out why you have the problem. I mean, you know, it’s not just the problem, it’s- “Why did this seem like an acceptable way to live?” Figure that shit out and then we’ll work on the rest. Jef Rouner: One of the things I did when I got out of the hospital was – as I said, I was the Hermione Granger of rehab – I got a lot of books about the history of alcoholism in America. I’m still reading this 500-page textbook about the history of substance abuse, in which you learn a lot of fun things. For instance, did you know that they tried to create a vaccine for alcoholism by getting horses drunk and then cutting them and then rubbing a cloth on the blood and then giving it to people?! KiKi Maroon: Shut up! I did not know that.  Jef Rouner: Science is fun! KiKi Maroon: I’m going to guess in the 40s? Jef Rouner: Oh earlier! This is like 1910. KiKi Maroon: Oh, okay. Damn, I was going to say 20s. But I thought, “No, that can’t be right.” Jef Rouner: Reading the history of how we treat alcoholism and drug abuse, you see that it’s gone back and forth. Sometimes they thought alcoholism is a symptom; sometimes it is the underlying cause. And basically the consensus that science has come to is that it doesn’t really matter. You should treat underlying issues because people with deep trauma should get treatment regardless.  KiKi Maroon: Period. Yeah. Jef Rouner: And you should treat the symptoms of alcoholism because not having drunk people killing themselves is also a good thing. So I mean, it’s the God question. Whether God exists or not is irrelevant to the impact that religion has. “This is just a symptom” – it doesn’t matter, you just have to fix the problem regardless. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, either way. Jef Rouner: Exactly. KiKi Maroon: Have you noticed if your writing has changed since you quit drinking? Was it hard at first because you were used to being drunk? Jef Rouner: It’s gotten faster. KiKi Maroon: But that’s now. When you first quit drinking, did you struggle with that? Or were you just instantly magical? Jef Rouner: I was not any better or any worse as a writer. I was just somebody who was able to… how to put this? Drinking is for liars, and fiction is for liars as well. KiKi Maroon: Hahahaha! Okay… Jef Rouner: I was just as good one way or the other because I spent a long time of my life not necessarily being sober, but being the least-drunk person in a room all the time. I would go to parties all the time and I would leave at two o’clock because by two o’clock, everybody who was an adult had gone home.  KiKi Maroon: Hahaha. And that’s why I was there until 7:00 a.m.  Jef Rouner: And everybody else who was there, is just finding a reason to get more and more fucked up until the sun chases them away.  KiKi Maroon: Oh absolutely. Jef Rouner: So I wouldn’t say that my art got better or worse one way or the other. I can still spin all kinds of tales. I just try to do it in a more constructive direction. Bizarre ideas don’t come to me as easily now. Like the novel I’m working on right now is about sentient mushrooms that grow in disused political biographies and they secretly run the world. KiKi Maroon: Okay wait, say that sentence one more time. Jef Rouner: It’s about sentient mushrooms. KiKi Maroon: Okay, I got those words. Jef Rouner: They grow in disused political biographies. KiKi Maroon: That’s the part. “Disused Political biographies.” What does that mean? Jef Rouner: Okay. You know how, around election time, you see everybody’s writing a book about Bernie Sanders, Hillary Clinton… everybody’s got a book.  KiKi Maroon: Got it.  Jef Rouner: People buy those books, like political action groups buy them at a retail price. KiKi Maroon: Oh, to up the sales count? Jef Rouner: So they can say, “Oh, it’s the bestselling novel.” KiKi Maroon: Oh, interesting. Jef Rouner: And then in my view, they all go to a warehouse where nobody reads them. And then mushrooms grow in the wet pages, secretly learn everything about politics, and they secretly control us. Now I had that… KiKi Maroon: Wait wait wait, how did they go from being mushrooms that ate books to controlling us? Jef Rouner: Well, because they can send letters. KiKi Maroon: Okay. So they’re controlling us. They’re still in the warehouse? Jef Rouner: Still in the warehouse. KiKi Maroon: And controlling us by sending letters? Jef Rouner: Yes. KiKi Maroon: Emails? Jef Rouner: Emails, blog posts, you know, strongly-worded letters to important people. KiKi Maroon: Do the people know that they’re mushrooms? Jef Rouner: Not yet. Now I had that thought completely sober. So I can still create those things, but you know, bizarre ideas used to come a lot more easily to me. I have to work at it now, but the ideas I come up with now are better. KiKi Maroon: Yes, because that is an interesting idea. Haha. You’re like, “It’s harder to come up with bizarre ideas, but there’s this one mushroom thing.” I believe that is because your brain is still processing not having things in it, and that the bizarre ideas are gonna flow more the longer that you are comfortable not having those things in you. I don’t know. What am I trying to say? I think that’s very common where people are like, “I used to be more creative,” or “These things just came to me out of nowhere.” Those things are always inside of you. It’s just muscle memory of- this, drinking or drugs, is how they happened. And so you slowly find the other triggers and learn how to open up those pathways in your brain naturally, without the outside things. And then you’re like, “That shit was always in there. I’m fucking bananas.” Those things are there, you just don’t have the pathways built to get to them easily right now. Jef Rouner: Well, I mean, take yourself. I’m making an assumption here, but I feel pretty safe in this assumption that your career and the things that you’re most known for were not sober ideas. KiKi Maroon: No, they were not sober ideas. But, I do think I was always a creative person. I think that drinking was a way that I could find the creative ideas easier because I was numb and spewing garbage out of my mouth and sometimes I would remember the garbage. And so when I quit, it was difficult at first. For example, with comedy, I found it very difficult to go onstage sober because I would get shaky and nervous. And I felt like everybody could see. The ideas, like you said, when I was writing, they weren’t as fucking bizarre. I have been told that some of my jokes are absurd, like how I want to fuck birds. This is not true. I always feel like I need to clarify because now my friends make jokes about how I have a bird fetish. I do not actually have a bird fetish, I just think it is a funny concept. But in the last year, I’m like, “Oh, now I feel like I’m far more creative.” I am so much better. It was harder to get to the ideas, but now the quality of the ideas is so much better and I’m figuring out how to just turn that thing on at-will now. But I just think that’s something you have to figure out because if the pathways aren’t made in your brain, you don’t know how to reach those things. They used to just “come to you.” It’s like, “No, they weren’t coming to you. You were fucking drunk.” Jef Rouner: You know why I think that is? This came up a lot when I was in rehab – when you have SUD, Substance Use Disorder, what you’ve done is, you’ve trained your brain to only produce dopamine from your substance. And when you tell people that it produces dopamine, they say, “Oh, well that makes you feel good.” That’s not what dopamine does. In an evolutionary sense, dopamine tells you the jaguar has gone away and you can stop panicking now.  KiKi Maroon: Ohh. Jef Rouner: That’s what dopamine does. It doesn’t create joy, it creates a lack of panic. Before I started drinking real heavily, I had an acid reflux condition and I would have these horrible attacks. I would go into my bedroom and wrap a blanket around my head and scream because I wanted to die. But at the end of that was a sudden cessation of pain. And that is a feeling that, if you’ve never experienced it before, you cannot explain to another person. If there is a heaven, that is what heaven feels like. It is the sudden cessation of all agony. And when you are addicted and you take that drink, or you do whatever you do, that’s the feeling that hits you. It’s not a feeling of pleasure. It’s a feeling of not panicking anymore. KiKi Maroon: And that’s why it feels normal. You’re hitting what you think normal is supposed to feel like. Jef Rouner: Exactly. So now that I can go outside, be with my family, exercise ,and do things that produce that dopamine in a healthy manner, I’m not panicked. And the idea of creating little dark, whimsical things to make people happy or scared comes a lot easier. So I imagine that’s what it is with you. You didn’t want to go on stage because you’d feel shaky, you’d feel panic, because your body is not used to producing the thing that makes you feel comfortable up there. But now, you go up there and you’re KiKi fucking Maroon, you know? Because I’m sure you’re like me – you get on stage and you feel at home there. You feel more normal up there than you feel at other places.  KiKi Maroon: Oh Absolutely. Jef Rouner: Exactly. Alcohol and everything else takes that away from you and tells you, “No, no, no, no, you can’t feel good on stage. You gotta feel good here with this in you. That’s the only way you’re going to feel good.” And it will take the stage from you. It’ll take everything away from you, bit by bit, until all that’s left is the thing that makes that trigger. And then you die. KiKi Maroon: I did not realize that that’s what dopamine was. I read this thing that said that when babies are in their mama’s bellies, that women who were in very difficult houses- stress, financial stress, physical stress, being with an abusive person, just general fear, usually having low income the constant feelings of “fight or flight,” that panic to survive – all of that is manifesting as chemicals being shot into the baby. And so they get chemically addicted. So then, the baby’s born and there is a higher likelihood of depression, anxiety, and all those issues, because on some level that’s what feels normal and comfortable. You got chemically addicted to that, whatever that adrenaline is, of things falling apart around you. It becomes like a spiral into generational situations because you’re not developing all the things that you need to be successful or even functioning. They’re not focusing on school because their brain is so busy pumping out this other kind of adrenaline and they’re not actually growing and developing as, you know, what we consider to be a healthy human being. Jef Rouner: Normalcy itself is the problem, I think. As you said, it’s like, when you put babies in that stress situation, and then when they’re out, they’re still in that stress situation.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah, exactly. Jef Rouner: Because babies are actually much more annoying when they’re not inside a person.  KiKi Maroon: Hahaha Jef Rouner: And I think you can become addicted to normalcy. It’s even more addictive than anything else. What I used to do is, every morning I would get up and I’d say, “I’m going to take the dog out.” And I would take the dog out, leave the dog in the little dog park area of my apartment complex, walk over to the bushes, and I would throw up. I’d do that every morning, it gets to the point that you’re almost looking forward to it. When I was in rehab everybody talked about how terrible their “normal” had become. It became almost a contest. Everyone would say, “I would go in the bathroom and I couldn’t look at myself. I couldn’t shave, I couldn’t do anything. I couldn’t even brush my teeth.” That wasn’t me. I became addicted to watching the light die in my own eyes. I would just sit there and stare at myself for 15 minutes and just watch everything good rot away. You can become enamored with terrible, terrible things. I’m sure you’ve seen people in performances, people who go off on self-destructive tangents for no reason that you can think of.  KiKi Maroon: Oh yeah… Jef Rouner: I used to be a Mexican wrestler way back in the day.  KiKi Maroon: Shut up! You were a luchador (Mexican wrestler)?! Jef Rouner: I was in Lucha Libre AAA. I was “El Mimo Peligrosa” translation- The Dangerous Mime. KiKi Maroon: Ohh, how funny! Jef Rouner: Which, that joke doesn’t translate real well in Spanish, but I didn’t speak Spanish. So it was like, “I’ll be an evil mime and it’ll work out.” KiKi Maroon: Hahaha. Oh my God! Jef Rouner: And people said, “Well, why did you become a wrestler?” Honestly, it was masochism because I liked being slammed. I liked having control of the pain. And like I said, it’s just weird what normalcy can breed in you.  KiKi Maroon: Oh yeah. Jef Rouner: That stress environment, people around you drinking, people around you using. Drinking wine made me think of my mom – who I love and thought was great, and didn’t have a problem. So there you go. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. When I heard about that study, it made so much sense to me because I could relate. My mom was under a lot of stress. She was a very young mom, not financially stable. We grew up in a trailer park, my dad was in and out all the time. And so there were constant financial and family stressors everywhere. It made me reevaluate my teenage years and going into 20’s. I was definitely, you know, that crazy girlfriend. I was with my first boyfriend for almost a decade. It was a really bad, abusive relationship. ButI will be very honest and say, “Yeah, he was a piece of shit, but I was awful too.” In hindsight, I was addicted to the adrenaline rush of the screaming and the fighting. I wanted all of the chaos around me. And then the make-up afterwards was so intense. And so, I was constantly creating chaos because – now, I understand – that felt normal to me. If things are “normal” and fine, I’m like, “Something’s wrong!” Even now, I’m having to tell myself that it’s okay for things to just be. That feels so weird to me. It feels like something’s wrong, when nothing is wrong. Jef Rouner: Exactly. You have to come up with a balance and you have to find another way to be happy. You have to find quiet things and you have to find healthy ways to express yourself. The thing that they talked about a lot in rehab was the connection between physical fitness and not having an addiction is way higher than you think it is. KiKi Maroon: Absolutely. We’re talking about the adrenaline – you have the “fight or flight” response in you – you have this built-up adrenaline that leads to anxiety and depression and everything else. If you don’t physically get it out, the thing in you saying, “Run away from the lion that’s chasing you!” if you never get that out, it’s just sitting in your brain. Your brain is in a fucking pool of this shit and you’re not physically releasing it.  Jef Rouner: Exactly. KiKi Maroon: That’s why so many people, before they go on stage, you’ll see them do like a little jog or jump up and down, they’re trying to get that shit out so they can walk on stage and be normal.  Jef Rouner: Exactly. KiKi Maroon: But we don’t talk about that because you don’t want to make people sound like they have anything to do with their depression. Not that… I mean, I get it; I understand there are issues and chemical imbalances and stuff, but there are things that you can do about it, to an extent. Jef Rouner: Of course. It’s normalcy again, because what do you see? If somebody is all amped up backstage and they’re twitching and weird and crazy, what do you tell them? “Have a drink.” KiKi Maroon: Oh yeah.  Jef Rouner: “You need a drink.” No, no, you don’t. You know what Kurt Cobain used to do whenever he was nervous before he went on stage? He would wrestle people. KiKi Maroon: Really? Hahaha! Jef Rouner: Yeah, backstage. That’s how he met Courtney Love! They started wrestling on the floor, like Greco-Roman wrestling! KiKi Maroon: Oh my God! Jef Rouner: And you know, that’s fine. And yes, Kurt had issues later. But you know, that’s fine. Go for a jog, jump up and down, play rock paper scissors. It doesn’t matter. You don’t have to substitute quirkiness and strangeness for a glass of something or a shot of something or a smoke of something. You don’t have to do that. We’ve made it the go-to, and I think that it’s a big reason why a lot of us end up the way we do. You know? KiKi Maroon: Yeah. I have to say, I am so glad that you are working through this and you seem to be in a much better place, and will continue to be, I’m sure. Jef Rouner: But? KiKi Maroon: No, no. No “but”, it’s an “and”, not a “but”. And, in my head, I know I still struggle. I’m a workaholic, I know that. I have issues with sugar. I replaced a lot of things. And I see it, but I’m very much like, “Well, it’s still the lesser evil and I’ll work on that part when I get there.” I have difficulty just being, I have difficulty just enjoying myself. I feel that I always should be working or I’ll feel intense guilt. In my head, once I had a family, that would all go away, because I would want to, you know, have park days, and dinners, and things that I never make time for right now. And all of the issues would just disappear once I had a husband and child. And I’m starting to think… as I’m talking to someone with a family… that perhaps… I was incorrect. Haha. Jef Rouner: My wife saved my life. I love my daughter with all my heart. They are my everything. Everything I do, I do for them. Actually, that’s not true. And you gotta stop lying to yourself about that. I do a lot of things for me, because it’s fucking fun. And I like being the crazy genius and that’s great. It is a great way to be, and you should always be yourself. But my family is a huge part of everything. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, of course. Jef Rouner: But I see people all the time who have bad days with their kids. It’s like, “Oh, mommy needs wine.” And that’s again, that is insidious. KiKi Maroon: Oh yes, the “mommy wine culture.” Jef Rouner: It’ll creep in on you. And tell you it’s because your kids are going to be annoying until you or they die. “Your family is going to get on your nerves until you or they die. It is going to be forever.” The one thing I have learned from all of this is, none of your problems get easier when you’re drunk. Not a single one of them. I used to love when like, “It’s 9:30, my kid’s in bed. If they’re not asleep, at least they’re not bothering me. I’m going to sit here with my glass of wine and play my video game,” or whatever. “I’ve earned it, I’ve deserved it.” But that’s not the case. Most early alcoholism studies that were done on a lot of the people who were sent away to the early “drying out” places…. as I said, I was reading a lot of history. You’re talking family people, you’re talking a lot of housewives. The prohibition movement was started by women who were trying to get their husbands to stop drinking. These are people who were dependent on it. You know, Carrie Nation (member of the temperance movement, which opposed alcohol before Prohibition) did not go out and start hatcheting bars and things because she just didn’t like alcohol. She did it because women were, you know, being subjugated by men who could not control themselves. So, other people will not fix you. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. But see, that’s other people you’re talking about. Jef Rouner: And you’re special. I’ve met you. Everything that happened to everybody else, that’s not going to happen to you. You’re clever and smart and pretty. And where will we keep all these unicorns? KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Well, yet again… I feel that this podcast is just a constant smack in the face of things I already knew, but I didn’t want to know.But I knew. Haha.  Jef Rouner: Haha. When I was in rehab, everybody told the same story. I told this story.  “Oh, I can’t be in here that long, man. They need me.” KiKi Maroon: Meanwhile, they were functioning while you weren’t totally there. Jef Rouner: They were functioning better. I mean, my wife doesn’t cook very well; there was a lot of pizza in the house. But other than that, you realize that you need to sit here and fix yourself and stop being part of the machine. You need to take some time, get zen, do some meditation, all of that stuff. A family’s not going to fix that. KiKi Maroon: How old is your daughter again? Jef Rouner: She will be 10 in August. KiKi Maroon: Okay. Does she… I mean, have you talked to her about this? Did she know that you were getting into this space, that you’re different now? Jef Rouner: Yes. She was completely aware. She’s like, “Death to alcohol!” now. She goes to the grocery store with me. And you have to walk through the wine aisle to get to the sodas and seltzers and stuff like that – I drink about a case of seltzer a day.  KiKi Maroon: Oh. Jef Rouner: So what you said with the sugar – I ate three cookie sandwiches yesterday. The big chocolate chip cookies with the stuff in the middle. KiKi Maroon: Ohh yeah. I never ate dessert before I quit drinking. I’ve heard this a lot, and then I’ve also heard that it’s a myth – I don’t believe it is though – that the alcohol turns into sugar in your blood. And so you have sugar cravings because your body’s like, “Where’s all that fucking sugar I used to get every day?” Jef Rouner: It’s part of that, also artificial sweeteners partially break down into ethanol.  KiKi Maroon: Ohh! Jef Rouner: Which explains why I was drinking a case of Coke Zero a day. Also, don’t do that. KiKi Maroon: No, don’t do that. Yeah. That makes sense because, suddenly, I wasn’t getting who knows how many thousands of calories a day that I previously was getting from alcohol.  Jef Rouner: Exactly. KiKi Maroon: So I wanted all the cakes. I didn’t think about the ethanol. Jef Rouner: But yeah, my daughter was aware. She saw things I wish she had not seen. She came to visit me when I was in the hospital, it was extremely hard.  KiKi Maroon: Did you check yourself in or did something happen? Jef Rouner: My wife just said I was going and I kind of had a moment of clarity where I said, “Okay.” So her and my mom picked me up and dropped me off at The Park on Gessner. It’s a place… Memorial Hermann Hospital calls it, “The Park.” They didn’t just drop me on a bench. KiKi Maroon: Hahaha okay. Not like something in Old Yeller. Like, “Bye, boy.” Jef Rouner: “No, he’s going up to a farm where he can play with all his writer friends.” That’s not what happened. KiKi Maroon: It’s called The Park, but it’s a hospital. Was it a live-in facility? Jef Rouner: Yeah, I was there for three weeks. And then I did about six weeks of outpatient. I went there for eight hours a day and then went there for about three hours a day. KiKi Maroon: Got it. Jef Rouner: And so she was aware and that’s in her memories now. The only thing I can keep reinforcing to her is, “You have an almost certain chance that if you start drinking, you’re going to end up like this eventually.” Because I drank like normal for 10 years. Again, I was always the most sober person at the party. So I try to drill that into her. And the really depressing thing about it is, I grew up going over to my aunt and uncle’s house and they were rampaging alcoholics that just beat the shit out of each other all the time. KiKi Maroon: Oh, wow. Jef Rouner: I remember they had a fight at a party and drug me and my cousins out. We were walking home and they kept making us get down in drainage ditches because they were afraid that my drunken uncle was going to drive by and find us. KiKi Maroon: Oh my God. Jef Rouner: And I still thought, “No, I’m going to be special,” like you just said there. I thought it was like, “No, I’ve got a handle on it.” You ain’t got a handle on shit! You just haven’t had that one bad day. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Oh yeah. Well I know that I don’t know your daughter, but I know people. I would imagine that there is far more power in her observing, up close, somebody overcome something. To see that and to be able to respect you, look up to you, and see that thing up close. And then you become the best version of yourself that you could be, I would think. I’m also not a psychologist. I don’t fucking know. Jef Rouner: And we don’t lie to her about it. She asked me what “abortion” was the other day. And I explained it to her as best I could. KiKi Maroon: “You would’ve had an older sister.” Sorry, sorry! Haha. Jef Rouner: But you know, we don’t lie to her, she has seen things up close and personal. And I just really hope she’s taken from that. I hope I haven’t messed her up for life any more than was already guaranteed to. So, you know, we’ll see. KiKi Maroon: I mean, we’re all fucked up. Jef Rouner: Extremely so. KiKi Maroon: I mean, she’s going to be. I’m sorry.  Jef Rouner: No, no, no. I feel good with it. KiKi Maroon: But again, it’s so different to see somebody overcome something and become the best version of themselves that they can be. I think that’s far more powerful than that never having happened and you were this fucking, you know, TGIF sitcom, family. That’s not the real world. I feel like that kind of situation – actually, I don’t “feel”, I’ve seen this. I’m not going to name names. We’ll just say there’s an upper middle class, passive-aggressive, “We don’t talk about any of our problems,” situation. Everybody is just perfect, nobody talks about the reality of situations, and it’ll strangle you. You feel like you’re not allowed to talk about your problems, you’re not allowed to have problems, because everybody else around you is “perfect”.  Jef Rouner: Exactly. KiKi Maroon: So “clearly, something’s wrong with me for having a problem”. And that’s not good. Jef Rouner: What happens is, people start fanficing their lives. People start finding things that are wrong with them. I spend a lot of my time finding broken, beautiful weirdos in the city. That is my passion. That is my dream. I actually made a vow to a dying friend that that’s what I would do. KiKi Maroon: Is that why you interviewed me? Jef Rouner: Yes. KiKi Maroon: Haha, I mean, I’m pretty broken. Jef Rouner: You’re a broken, beautiful weirdo, but you do good with it. Going around, finding all these artists and all these people who create these amazing bits of music and arts and installations of performance like you do, it’s because they have opened themselves up to the world. They have observed around them and they have seen people overcome. If they haven’t themselves overcome something, then they have chosen to be hurt by what happens to others. But when you refuse to see other people’s hurts, you find reasons why you’re the hero of your damn, mediocre, story. They fanfic their own lives. KiKi Maroon: I like that. “Fanfic their own lives.” That’s intense. I actually just started doing this thing. You know how you get into fights in your head with somebody, that don’t ever actually happen. You’re like, “And then I would say this, and they would say this, and I would say that.” That spiral you get into, confrontations that weren’t going to take place, but maaaaybe… You’re preparing yourself just in case they were. I’ve started like…  like when you whack a dog on the nose with the newspaper. I’m doing that to myself. I’m forcing myself to snap out of it and saying, “If I’m going to have a fantasy, why am I having a negative fantasy?” Jef Rouner: Yeah, exactly. KiKi Maroon: Like, that’s all it is. I’m indulging in a fantasy right now. This conversation is never happening. So if I’m going to do that, let’s have the fucking red glitter convertible fantasy! No more, no bad fantasies, no negative fantasies. There’s nothing in there for me.  And so I’m just trying to whack myself out of it… There’s been a lot of whacking throughout the day. Haha. Jef Rouner: One of the things that I’ve heard in writing workshops is- if you’re sitting around, interviewing yourself after your amazing book comes out, you need to cut that shit out. You should just be writing. And of course when you’re addicted, you fantasize all the time. I would congratulate myself on my sobriety while I was drunk. I would sit there and think like, “Man, when I write about how I overcame this, it’s going to be so cool.” If time travel existed, I would punch myself so hard. KiKi Maroon: Oh, God! Oh, that’s so funny. Haha. I feel like a lot of people are going to relate to that. Jef Rouner: Fantasy is great. I mean, obviously I make my living off of it. You know, either I’m reporting on other people’s fantasies or I’m publishing my own. But the clarity is what is important. And once you have it, you can’t ever get rid of it, which is annoying. You’re sitting there, you’re eating a whole cake and you know you’re wrong. You know this. I know I’m wrong as I’m doing it. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, I was actually just having a talk with a friend of mine about love fantasy. So again, my first relationship lasted from when I was 15, 14, something like that. No, wait I was 13! I can go back and do the math. But yeah, my first relationship lasted almost a decade from when I was basically a child until I was 20 or 21. I thought, with everything inside of me, I truly believed that I would die without him. I think that is very common for puppy love. “I could not exist without him.” And he appeared to believe the same thing. Now, I am in a much different space. I am healthier, not “fixed”, but I’m healthier. I’m smarter. And I know that that’s not true. No matter how depressed I’ve gotten after breakups, I know that at some point, I’m going to be okay. I know “this too shall pass”. I know I’m not going to die, no matter how bad and sad it gets. I know I’m not going to die without any one person. And… part of me is sad about that. There’s a thing inside me that feels like that because it will never be that intense, that it’s not the purest form of love. It’s not as strong as it could be, you know? It’s like I fucking bit the apple. There is no going back to believing something that intensely, and that would make me sad. But only in this last week am I realizing that… that’s not real love. It’s not much different than taking a shot. You know? It’s this fake intensity. It’s a fake feeling, and it’s something that you can get addicted to, but it’s not real. Jef Rouner: It’s like we were talking earlier about healthy lifestyles. Do you know what true love is? True love is cleaning out an infected spider bite on somebody’s back. Okay?  KiKi Maroon: Haha, yeah. Jef Rouner: I mean, that’s what true love is. And it’s not flashy, but it produces way more dopamine than the flashy stuff ever did. My relationship with my wife is, in many ways, a fairytale. It has a great opening – I was 14 or 15 years old. I went and saw Rocky Horror where she was performing. I heckled her and she screamed until I cried. And you either have to never talk to that person again, or you have to marry them. Those are the rules, I didn’t make them. We’ve gone on adventures together and we’ve had all kinds of… we’ve had the kind of love that gets written about. I know, because I’ve written about it. And that’s great, but there’s also the nitty-gritty of it. There are also the daily things. There’s getting up, as I did last night, and holding her hair while she throws up, even though I’m extremely tired and only had two hours of sleep. “Did you really have to pick this day to get sick?” So, you know, it’s great to fantasize that you’re having this amazing adventure, but it’s no substitute for being able to, for instance, sit down at a coffee shop and have an intelligent adult conversation about a serious problem. I’ve been drunk onstage. You’ve been drunk onstage before. I’d much rather be where I am right now. KiKi Maroon: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. I guess I’m in a place where I am able to… So before, I was in it and I didn’t see anything, because I was crazy and drunk and blind. Jef Rouner: Yes. And stupid. We were all stupid. KiKi Maroon: Oh, very stupid. So stupid. And now I’m in a place where I’m still making stupid choices, but I have the ability to step outside of myself and ask myself, “Well, wait, why did I do that stupid thing? What was going on here? Okay. How does this relate back to this?” And seeing how the codependency, and whatever other issues that I had that led to my alcoholism, how those things are affecting other parts of my life that I thought were unrelated. But it’s all connected. Jef Rouner: Yeah. KiKi Maroon: And I feel like that’s the step before being actually healthy. I’m like… I’m closer. I’m closer. I see the problems. Jef Rouner: You can see it off in the distance. KiKi Maroon: I see “healthy” in the distance and I’m questioning my actions versus just blindly doing them. Jef Rouner: I always think of the healthy life, like Vegas. I went to Vegas on my honeymoon and we thought we could walk everywhere, because you can see everything. So you see Caesar’s Palace and everything out there. It’s like, “Oh, we’ll just walk there.” Then you’ve only gone half a mile you’re just like, “This was a terrible mistake and I regret everything.” But you know… KiKi Maroon: Yes. That’s so good. Jef Rouner: And then you get on the bus and you go there and it’s great, but you know… KiKi Maroon: But it looked like it was just right there. Jef Rouner: It looked like it was just right there. But you’re walking and you’re tired and you regret your shoe choices, you know? That’s the healthy life, but you gotta get the walking in. The walking matters and it is its own story. Do you know how many adventures I’ve had on a quarter mile stretch of a bad dirt road between my house and my daughter’s school? It’s a lot – like dead bodies and rescuing kittens and all kinds of things.  KiKi Maroon: Oh, geeze!  Jef Rouner: If you put the work in, just hiking into the unknown, you’d be surprised what you can find. I used to hike to rehab for my outpatient therapy. I walked down White Oak Bayou because I really will just wander off into the wilderness without telling anybody where I’m going. KiKi Maroon: Jesus, don’t do that! Jef Rouner: Don’t do that. But I found this abandoned chapel on the side of the bayou where this woman had been raped and murdered. KiKi Maroon: Oh my God. Jef Rouner: And her family and coworkers had put together money to raise this giant white cross in the middle of the field. And there are benches with bible quotes and “we love yous” and everything. KiKi Maroon: Oh, wow. Jef Rouner: You’re never going to find it unless you just hike off into the wilderness like I did. It’s out behind somebody’s house. And to me, that is the kind of thing I never would have seen when I was using. I didn’t have any interest in walking any place, putting in the hours anywhere, because you just click on Facebook and you’re in the online world. But sometimes, when you have the space to go and experience these things, you find tragedy and beauty and life and loss. It’s all so much better than any sort of fantasy you’re going to tell yourself. That’s my little thing. It lives in my heart and nobody can ever take it away from me. And I fucking love it. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. I logically understand the beauty in that. Meanwhile, I hear, “raped and murdered,” and I’m like, “Yeah, that’s why I drank, because I didn’t want to see any of that.” I wanted… I don’t know if you know this but people create circuses to run away to because… they want to run away! But I can intellectualize, I understand the beauty in the human experience and the intensity of that thing.  Jef Rouner: Of course. KiKi Maroon: I know that it’s beautiful and to focus on the love that built the cross afterwards. The notes and the inscriptions, to focus on that. I understand it. But I don’t want to. Haha. Jef Rouner: You are choosing to be unhappy. And I don’t mean this in general, as in all of humanity. KiKi Maroon: You mean me specifically. Jef Rouner: I mean you specifically. You are choosing to be unhappy. KiKi Maroon: The intensity of my emotions are stronger in general. I think that’s part of why I drank so much, was to numb all of them. Jef Rouner: Yes. Of course. KiKi Maroon: But yeah, with my happiness now, my highs are so much higher than they ever were before. Jef Rouner: Because they’re real. KiKi Maroon: Exactly, they’re real. Unfortunately, the lows are too. I just had a thing happen last week and I ended up reaching out to Andy Huggins. I talked to him, explained the whole thing to him and he was like, “Okay, but how’s your sobriety?” And I said, “Well, that’s fine. I’m not worried about that.” And he was like, “Okay, well, you ran into life.”  Jef Rouner: This. KiKi Maroon: He’s very sweet and caring, but he’s like, “You know, I’m sorry, but you ran into life. Life happens. What’s important is that you didn’t think about drinking to run away from it. And now it’s time to process life.” Jef Rouner: Exactly. KiKi Maroon: And I was like, “Damn, you’re smart.” Jef Rouner: It’s great when you don’t have this go-to to erase things. It’s great whenever you’re like, “Well, I’m just going to have to deal with it.” You find that you can internalize the parts that make you stronger and you can eliminate the parts that don’t hurt you.  KiKi Maroon: I think it just takes a while though, honestly. I don’t want to lie. I think it took a while to figure out how to do that. At first, it all fucking slams into your face and you’re like, “This is what reality is?!” And that sucks. But I think it’s worth it to figure it out. Jef Rouner: And that’s one of the things that I think A.A. and rehab are good for, because you think your problems are great until you go in and you hear some other people. For example, I’ve never flipped a truck. My story is comparatively very small. I mean, I talk about the horrible things that happened to me that made me drink, but I never got a ticket for DUI. I never wrecked anything. I never lost a job. The only thing I did was I had a chance to write for Rolling Stone. And I was so happy for the opportunity, that I drank until I forgot what I was going to write about.  KiKi Maroon: Nooo! Jef Rouner: So honestly, that’s the worst thing that happened, other than, you know, I broke my wife and daughter’s hearts multiple times. KiKi Maroon: Well, I was going to say that. Jef Rouner: I didn’t die. I’ve got all my limbs, you know, most of my brains. I’m not any stupider than I was before. So that happens and A.A. is great for that because it gives you perspective. But everybody’s bottom is their bottom, you know?  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Jef Rouner: And there are people who have got it worse than you. There are people who quit way higher than you did. KiKi Maroon: Oh yeah, absolutely. Everybody has their story. That’s why I like doing this. Okay Jef, it’s time for the final question! Jef Rouner: Final question! KiKi Maroon: Final question! If you could snap your fingers and people around the world instantly believed two things – they believe it; it’s just fucking truth; it’s reality across the board – what would they be? One has to be good for humanity; the other one has to be completely selfish. Jef Rouner: Okay. Completely selfish. Good for humanity, that’s fairly easy – vaccines work.  KiKi Maroon: Haha, okay! Jef Rouner: They work and they don’t give you autism. Scientists can be assholes and pharmaceutical companies are vampires, but at least they are researching shit. So that’s my first, for humanity. The thing that I would snap my fingers and make people believe that would be completely selfish is that short stories are a good art.  KiKi Maroon: Aww! Jef Rouner: It’s so hard to sell short stories these days because everybody’s like, “Nobody’s buying them.” And I fucking love short fiction. I grew up reading Harlan Ellison when I was 12, Stephen King, Joe Hill, Ray Bradbury, Del James, all of those people. That’s what I would change because I would personally benefit a tremendous amount, I would have more to read, and I would have more money. So, that’s the thing I would do. KiKi Maroon: Haha. Yes! We’ll work on it. I think the pendulum is swinging. They talk about how everybody is taking in just Tweet-levels of information. But everything ends in excess and flips to the other side. So I think that longer form is going to be more attractive. Jef Rouner: I’ve got a book coming out later this year that’s all short stories that are less than 500 words that are based around my “word of the day” calendar.  KiKi Maroon: Oh, I like that! Jef Rouner: I’d get a word of the day and I’d write a really tiny… I was going to put them on postcards, but I am really fucking lazy, so I didn’t. KiKi Maroon: Okay. So lazy that you’re writing a book. Haha. Got it. Jef Rouner: One of us mentioned being a workaholic and I’m pretty sure it wasn’t me. Haha. KiKi Maroon: I know, I’m working on it. We’ll see. Thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate it. Jef Rouner: Thank you for this project because it has honestly helped a lot of people. I have told them about it. I will continue to tell people about it. And if you had a stack of those business cards, I would throw them at them like Gambit from the fucking X-Men. KiKi Maroon: Hahaha. Thank you so much. Jef Rouner: Thank you. [Theme song: “Last Call” provided by The Last Domino] KiKi Maroon: That was Jef Rouner. He mentioned how every writer believes he is Hemingway, which made me want to look more into his famous quote, “Write drunk, edit sober.” I’ve heard comedians quote it as well. I think a lot of people use it as an excuse. This idea that you must lubricate the gears to get the creative juices flowing. It turns out that Hemingway never even said that! Not only is that a fake quote, he said the opposite in an interview. A journalist asked, “Is it true that you take a pitcher of martinis into the tower every morning when you go up to write?” Hemingway responded, “Jesus Christ! Have you ever heard of anyone who drank while he worked? You’re thinking of Faulkner. He does sometimes. And I can tell right in the middle of the page when he’s had his first one.” Burn! How do you like those apples, Faulkner? Haha. I don’t even know who that is. But while researching this, I stumbled upon an interview with Charles Bukowski, who was also known for writing drunk. He said, “I used to always write while drinking and/or drunk. I never thought I could write without the bottle. But the last five or six months, I have had an illness that has limited my drinking. So I sat down and wrote without the bottle. And it all came out just the same. So it does not matter.” Now, these two are not the know-all, be-all of all arts, or even just all writing. But it does show that the “tortured artist” idea has been prevalent for generations, and it’s just not true. Your creativity comes from inside you, not from a beverage. If it seems hard at first, don’t give up! It’s not that you’re no longer creative, it’s that you are finding the natural and sustainable way to access it, I promise.  Speaking of beverages, I got a modeling gig last month where I didn’t find out until I got there that I would have liquor logos painted all over my body and have to hold a bottle of vodka for photos. Ugh. I had spent all day working on this podcast and then I walked into that garbage. I would loveto be able to say that I said, “No,” and walked out, but that gig was covering most of my bills that month. And it was booked by an agency who hires me often, so I would have lost six more months of bookings had I just walked out. It was a mindfuck, and one I don’t want to repeat. So if you enjoyed the podcast, please consider joining my Patreon so that I may cover the cost involved in a much less ironic way. There’s a link to more info on the Patreon in the show notes. There are also links to all my socials – @KiKiMaroon – and the Clown, Interrupted Instagram – @ClownPod. And of course, the theme song “Last Call” is graciously provided by The Last Domino. And don’t forget to rate the show on whatever podcast platform you’re listening to so more people can find it. Thanks for listening. And I will see you next week! [Theme song: “Last Call” provided by The Last Domino]

Welcome to Season 2 of Clown, Interrupted with KiKi Maroon! It’s been a while. Thank you so much for your emails, messages, worries, and concerns. I want to start off by catching you up on why it’s taken so long to get these episodes out to you.  First off- No, I did not relapse. That was the number one question I was sent. I appreciate your concern. After my cancer scare and surgery in Episode 6, things got a little dark. But I am doing great now, both physically and mentally. Nothing has grown back, and the doctors said I don’t have to follow up until this fall. I originally wanted this podcast to be weekly, but I had to change it to “seasons”. There’s a lot of travel involved in finding artists who are comfortable sharing their stories. That, plus the post production work, makes this a time consuming project. I love getting to connect with these people and I extra love getting to connect with the listeners who write to tell me that something resonated with them. So, I will 100% continue this show, I’m just not going to be able to make it weekly until I have more resources.  But while 2019 was a hard year, it was also a great year! My comedy burlesque show- KiKi Maroon’s Burly Q Lounge was picked up by Live Nation and is now a monthly, multi-city production! I also gave my first TEDx Talk called “The Beauty of Rock Bottom”. The video’s not released yet, but I’ll put it on the website once it is.  My first guest of the season is a professional clown. Bobby Barnaby is the head of Fou Fou Ha Austin. Fou Fou Ha is a nationwide brand of clown tricksters. They’re a glorious mix of clown meets drag, coated in showgirl; beautiful, whimsical, and so entertaining. Fou Fou Ha started in San Francisco 19 years ago and has since expanded to New York, Portland, and Austin.  On top of being a professional drag clown, Bobby is also an award winning, international burlesque performer. We talk about the art of clowning, escapism, sober drag queens, and the time he was almost eaten by a python. Seriously.  If you’d like more info on some of the stuff we discuss, here are the links: Bobby Barnaby’s website Fou Fou Ha Bimbos 365 Club Burlesque performer: Dirty Martini Burlesque performer: Catherine d’Lish Find the next 20 meetings near you with the Meeting Guide App Play the tape forward Burlesque Hall of Fame  The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom Clown, Interrupted on Instagram KiKi Maroon’s Burly Q Lounge If you like the podcast, please consider signing up to my Patreon. Your donation helps with the operating cost and is the easiest way to say, “thanks for making this!”  The Clown, Interrupted theme song is graciously provided by The Last Domino. You can listen to or purchase the full song HERE. FULL TRANSCRIPT KiKi Maroon: Hello! Welcome to Season Two of Clown, Interrupted with KiKi Maroon. That’s me! It’s been a little while. Thank you so, so much for your emails, messages, worries, and concerns. I do want to start off by catching y’all up about why it’s taken so long to get these episodes to you. First off – no, I did not relapse, and my health is fine. That was the number one concern and I totally get it. After my cancer scare and surgery back in Episode Six, things got a little dark. But I promise I am A-okay now. Nothing has grown back, and the doctor said I don’t even have to check back in until this fall. Everything’s great! So why did it take so long?  Well, originally, I wanted this podcast to be weekly, but I had to change it to seasons. There’s a lot of travel involved with finding artists who are comfortable sharing their stories. That, plus the post-production work, makes this a very time-consuming project. But I love it! I love getting to connect with these people. And I love getting to connect with the listeners who write to tell me that something that we talked about resonated with them. So, I will 100% continue the show. I’m just not going to be able to make it weekly until I have more resources – and by resources, I mean money! Mine was drastically drained after all the medical stuff that we talked about in Episode Six. So, I spent most of 2019 working four or five jobs. While it was a busy and hard year, it was also a great year!   My comedy/burlesque show, “KiKi Maroon’s Burly Q Lounge,” was picked up by Live Nation, so now, it’s a monthly multi-city production! And I even gave my first TEDx talk! It’s called The Beauty of Rock Bottom – you can guess why! The video is not released yet, but I’ll put it on the website once it is. Also, I started a separate Instagram for this podcast [@ClownPod]. There’s a lot of sobriety stuff that I always want to share, but I kind of feel weird. I have to balance it and not post too many sobriety-based things so I don’t ostracize my normal, functioning adult audience – the people that follow me from the burlesque shows, my stand-up comedy, or modeling. But, I still want to share that stuff, so should you be interested in passages from books I’m currently reading, cheesy motivational stuff, inappropriate memes about hitting rock bottom, and maybe even Instagram Stories of me being the only sober person at random parties – which happens often – then join me on Instagram @ClownPod, that’s Clown P-O-D. One word, no dashes.  Speaking of clowns, my first guest of the season is a professional clown! Bobby Barnaby is the head of Fou Fou Ha! Austin. Fou Fou Ha! is a nationwide brand of clown tricksters! They’re a glorious mix of  clown-meets-drag, coated in showgirl. Fou Fou Ha! started in San Francisco 19 years ago by Mama Fou. Years later, one of their senior clowns moved to New York and started a branch there called Fou-York. I love that! Another moved to Portland and started a group there. And last year, Bobby moved to Texas and started Fou Fou Ha! Austin. On top of being a professional clown, Bobby is also an award-winning international burlesque performer. We talk about the art of clowning, escapism, sober drag queens, and the time he was almost eaten by a python… seriously. I hope you like it. Here’s me and Bobby Barnaby.  [Theme song: “Last Call” provided by The Last Domino] KiKi Maroon: I’m looking at a costume right now. It’s crystals and lace and everything. A very showgirl version of a clown. Bobby Barnaby: Oh yes. We believe- the higher the hair, the closer to clown. KiKi Maroon: Hahaha!Oh my god, please tell me you’re going to put that on a shirt?!  Bobby Barnaby: Oh yeah, of course! KiKi Maroon: Please do that.  Bobby Barnaby: We’ve got a new slogan that we’re going to put on some shirts too called, “The bevel made me do it.” KiKi Maroon: Ohhh my god! Oh my god, I love this. I wish I was in Austin so I could join y’all. I love this so, so much. How many are in the Austin group now?  Bobby Barnaby: Oh, wow. We just actually had an audition and brought on a few more. Roundabout 14.  KiKi Maroon: Wow, okay, and you just started it? The Austin part of it. Bobby Barnaby: A year ago. KiKi Maroon: That’s what I thought.  Bobby Barnaby: Everyone in Austin is so busy. There are so many projects going on and the way Fou is, it’s not super demanding. You don’t have to be there all the time; this isn’t your one life goal. We know that you’re artists and that you’re going to have a lot of things going on. So,  I have to have 14 to be able to get 6 at a time. Haha. KiKi Maroon: Got it. That makes sense. Yeah. Bobby Barnaby: Same with Fou Fou Ha! San Francisco. With almost 20 years of history, there are lots of people that come in or out of the troupe, so it’s a “whoever is there is who is getting the gigs” type of a thing.  KiKi Maroon: Got it. Bobby Barnaby: And we’re just a big family. It’s more about love and creating art together than rigorous rules and you know, that kind of stuff. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Well, okay. So, with that many of them though… I ask because you have some of the costumes here – are you doing all these costumes? Or do other people do the costumes with you? Bobby Barnaby: No, I do not do them all. I do my own.  KiKi Maroon: Okay, good! I was like, “Don’t do this to yourself!” Haha. Bobby Barnaby: Haha. No, no, no, no. I don’t have that much time. Wrangling 12-13 clowns is enough work. It’s like herding cats into a can of worms, I’d say.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah, I’m sure!  Bobby Barnaby: But our rule is, “You can’t do a gig until you make your own wig.” So, they have to make their own wig and their own costume. I am definitely there to help. We have crafting days on Sundays. KiKi Maroon: That sounds self-filtering, because I’m sure a lot of people… we have the showgirls in my show, people say, “Oh my god, I want to be a showgirl!” But I’m like, “Okay, so we do this and this and this…” “That sounds very hard.” And I’m like, “Well, if that sounds hard to you, then you’re not going to be able to do the actual work!” Bobby Barnaby: Exactly. I hired a lot of people knowing that some will not make it through the gauntlet of clown.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah.  Bobby Barnaby: It just happens. People will fall off and that’s fine, we still love them and they’re still in the Fou family. But the diehard ones, you don’t know until you find out who’s willing to put in the work. Those are the people that are doing the gigs, doing the festivals, and things like that. KiKi Maroon: The ones who stick around.Yeah, that’s awesome! You’re doing an open mic in Austin too? Bobby Barnaby: Actually, yes. In January, we started a show called “The F Show.” It’s Fire, Fun, and Follies on the First Friday of the month.  KiKi Maroon: Shut up! Oh god! I love that. Bobby Barnaby: That’s right! Moving to Austin about a year and a half ago, I noticed that most of the shows here – most of the burlesque shows – are troupe based shows. So for an independent artist, it’s a little harder to get those guest spots. It’s a very collaborative community, but at the same time, we’re kind of all fighting for those same spots. So I wanted to create a variety show. Fou is always there and we have partnered with Pyrotect Fire collective, so you’re always going to see fire and clowns. But with the rest of the guest spots, I try to bring as much variety as possible. So it’ll be burlesque, it’ll be comedy, sideshow. This month we have an aerialist, we have a local comedian, and we have some fire.  KiKi Maroon: Okay, so it’s not like a “show-up, go-up” mic. They still have to talk to you and set it all up in advance. Bobby Barnaby: So, we have two shows per night. There’s a main stage show where we hire local entertainers that are established. Also in addition to that, I wanted to create an incubation space. Coming from San Francisco, I’ve noticed that is lacking here. And I think that’s super important to budding artists – to have a space to try things out. So they’re not just doing it in their living room, but they’re doing it in front of live people.  KiKi Maroon: Okay. Yeah, totally. Bobby Barnaby: We have an “open stage” show. I wanted to get rid of the “mic” part of the name. You don’t have to have a mic to come to our show.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Bobby Barnaby: If you want to do a dance piece, or a new burlesque piece, or I always joke and tell the audience, “If you want to come up on stage and eat grapes for five minutes, we will watch you do that.” Whatever you want to do, we will watch you do as long as there are no bodily fluids or snakes. Those are my rules. Haha. KiKi Maroon: Haha. Oh my god. Do you just have a thing against snakes? I know a bunch of girls that dance with snakes.  Bobby Barnaby: I’m deathly afraid of snakes. I love all animals. But I had a near-death experience as a child.  KiKi Maroon: Oh no! Are you serious?!  Bobby Barnaby: I did.  KiKi Maroon: How did you have a near-death experience with a snake?  Bobby Barnaby: When I was a child, there was a show across the street from my school in the amphitheater park called, “Ooo’s, Awes, and Giggles.” And it was a different show every month. KiKi Maroon: Oh my god. I love everything that you say. I just have to tell you that. Haha. Bobby Barnaby: Haha! I have a colorful life; I will tell you.  KiKi Maroon: Yes!  Bobby Barnaby: So, we went to this show, my older sister and I. I was in first grade I think. I was a very, very small, little child. Very short, very tiny. So, that month the show was belly dancers with snakes. After the show, you could go around the back of the stage and have the snake put on you for a photo.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Bobby Barnaby: So we went around the back and they put the tail end of the snake on me – this was a 30-foot python… And it just Mowgli-ed (boy from The Jungle Book) me right up! It literally encircled me from toe to tip.  KiKi Maroon: Oh my god!  Bobby Barnaby: It thought it was having a snack.  KiKi Maroon: Shut up!  Bobby Barnaby: And I couldn’t breathe. With every breath out, it collapsed my lungs more and there was this big frenzy. The men picked up my feet and they were yanking me away from the snake. And then finally, they were able to uncoil it onto somebody else’s arm. We didn’t have any parental supervision; it was the early 90’s! They just patted us on the head and said, “Have a good day, kids. Go home.” We just walked home and that was that. KiKi Maroon: Oh my god! Hahaha! “You’re not dead. Be happy.” Bobby Barnaby: Yes, exactly! So, I love all animals, but I just have this primal, built-in fear that I can’t control. Haha. KiKi Maroon: Yes. Yeah, that makes sense. Oh my god. Bobby Barnaby: So, I’m trying to work on it. I watch nature programs. KiKi Maroon: Well, it’s okay to not work on that. You have a reason. It’s not an unjustified fear – for you,specifically. Bobby Barnaby: Haha. It’s one of my only fears. When I see them, it grips me and I can feel it in my chest. Through sobriety, I have decided to walk towards my fears because I think of fears as a cord – a stretched cord between you and the fear. And if you walk towards the fear, there’s slack in the line and it releases all the tension. So, I’m trying. I challenged myself and I did touch a snake at Coney Island. That’s as far as I’ve gotten.  KiKi Maroon: Good for you, that you’re even working on it! So yours is justified because you almost died, and that’s reasonable. I have – for my whole life – had a fear of cockroaches. By the way, do y’all have the big ones in San Francisco that we have here?  Bobby Barnaby: Oh god, no. No, no, no. KiKi Maroon: Okay, I didn’t think so. I know a lot of people will come down from up north and are like, “No, absolutely not. These monsters don’t exist anywhere but here.” (Southern USA) Bobby Barnaby: That is true.  KiKi Maroon: I lived in Florida and they were everywhere, but they called them something else. They gave them a cute name. And I was like, “Uh-uh, no. They’re fucking cockroaches.” Oh god, what were they? Something bugs [palmetto bugs]. Anyways, it doesn’t matter. I’ve had a fear of them since I was little, a fear that causes shrieking. One time, there was one outside my apartment door, so I just didn’t go home that night. I was throwing rocks at it. It didn’t run away, so I just had to go stay at my girlfriend’s house, because I just couldn’t. Bobby Barnaby: Haha. When I first moved here a year and a half ago, it was in the summer and I was coming home from a gig. I was in full drag and one chased me around the parking lot! It just kept coming for me! KiKi Maroon: Ohh no! While you were in drag? Oh my god. Bobby Barnaby: I was in full drag, screaming in the middle of the night. KiKi Maroon: Oh my god, that should be in a movie. Haha! Bobby Barnaby: Haha. I’m sure somebody saw it and was like, “Put that on Instagram!” KiKi Maroon: Haha. Oh my god. So even if they were dead, it would be a thing with me. I’d put a bowl or newspaper or something on them and wait until someone visited me. Like, “Hey, can you take care of that for me?” I would love to say that through sobriety, I worked through it. That did not happen. But separately, I had a surgery last year. Not pre-cancer, but the step right before that. It was a whole mindfuck, mortality and all this stuff, and I’ve never gone under anesthesia. And so, it was a lot. I didn’t know what was going to happen to my career, because, “Oh, are they taking my whole tit away?” It was a lot for me to handle. Now thankfully, everything’s fine. But the day after the surgery, I just felt super zen because it was like, “Well, this is yet another thing I got through.”  Bobby Barnaby: Right. Yeah. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. And there was just a lot of peace in like the whole, “This too shall pass”. Terrible things keep happening. Bobby Barnaby: Right. KiKi Maroon: They’re not going to stop. Ever, I don’t think. The fear has just dissipated through that.  Bobby Barnaby: Yeah. KiKi Maroon: And so, two days after, I saw a roach and I went dead-eyed. I stared at it, just went over, smacked it with a broom, and scooped it up.  Bobby Barnaby: Yeah! KiKi Maroon: Because there’s nothing else to be afraid of at this point. Bobby Barnaby: No. KiKi Maroon: And it was really weird to explain because I’m like, “Yeah, I’m super zen, but I’m killing things – but in a very zen way!” Haha. Bobby Barnaby. Haha. You zen-fully killed that fucker! KiKi Maroon: Yeah! Haha! Bobby Barnaby: Haha. I like to think of things as, the worst thing that has ever happened to you is only the worst thing until the next worst thing. And if you got through the last worst thing, then you can always get through the next worst thing. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, that’s much more positive way of saying it. I’m more like, “Fucking bring it on!” Haha. So, how long ago did you stop drinking?  Bobby Barnaby: Well, I stopped drinking… this July, it will be four years for me.  KiKi Maroon: Oh, congratulations!  Bobby Barnaby: I did do, for 18 months, what they call the Marijuana Maintenance Program. And then April 1st, I went clean and sober. KiKi Maroon: April 1st this year? Oh no, April 1st then. Bobby Barnaby: So, I have two years, just over two years, clean and sober.  KiKi Maroon: Got it. Okay.  Bobby Barnaby: I chose April 1st, because that is actually my personal New Year. Being a performer, we don’t really get to celebrate New Year’s because we’re usually working, and it’s all about booze usually, too.   KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Bobby Barnaby: So, April 1st presented itself to me. Monumental things happened on April 1st for several years and then I kind of caught on. The first show that I ever produced solo was on April 1st. The next year, I submitted my application to Clown College on April 1st.  KiKi Maroon: Aww! Bobby Barnaby: The following year, I graduated from Clown School and I also moved out of my home of 10 years, and ended my marriage on April 1st.  KiKi Maroon: Oh, wow.  Bobby Barnaby: And this year, I get to celebrate two years clean and sober and the success of my new show!  KiKi Maroon: Oh my god!  Bobby Barnaby: So,April 1st is a very big day for me. And being a clown, I think it’s very fitting. KiKi Maroon: Absolutely! And I have to tell you – because we know each other as performers, especially from Facebook – But this is our first sit-down. Everything you’ve said, I’m like, “Oh, my god, we are so connected!” And that is my birthday!  Bobby Barnaby: It’s your birthday! Yay! KiKi Maroon: Yeah! This is just meant to be. Bobby Barnaby: Yes! It’s both of our New Years’.  KiKi Maroon: I love that so much. Just the symbolism and the power in those things and what they mean to you, because I know that feeling. Bobby Barnaby: Absolutely. Yeah, I think it’s really important to make your own way through life and not feel that you have to follow the status quo. Because I felt that for so long, and I felt so, what my sponsor calls, “not-good-enough-itis.” I felt that my whole life and then, I recently started driving Lyft and sometimes I’ll talk about things. And things in my life are kind of… I run an all-showgirl-drag-clown troupe – that’s quite a thing! I’m a stripper that has stripped coast to coast of the United States and Canada and all over Europe. And that’s not an acceptable thing in some places in Texas. But, depending on the fare, I will share part of my life with them. And this one guy said, “You’re so cool!” KiKi Maroon: Haha, I mean, it’s true! Bobby Barnaby: I just waited so long to hear that when I was a kid. I never thought I was going to hear that. Not that it’s important what other people think about you, but just that I’ve made my own way and not followed what I thought I had to follow. And I’m actually very happy about that.  KiKi Maroon: Good! That makes me happy. I feel like with artists, a really common thread is that people feeling like the outsider and the approval-seeking it causes. And the whole back and forth that we do because we tend to be sensitive.  And so, you kind of do the, “Fuck it, make your own path!” But then we find people, you meet the other strippers or the other clowns or the other artists, and then you kind of get sucked into negative habits because you then want to be accepted by those things.  Bobby Barnaby: Right. So, you have to fit into this new outcast crew.  KiKi Maroon: Exactly. You’re trying to fit in with the outcasts.  Bobby Barnaby: “Am I outcast enough?” KiKi Maroon: Hahaha, exactly! You have to be a rebel and the constant struggle is finding the actual “your own path,” versus thinking you’re on your own path. Bobby Barnaby: Right, exactly. “Where do I fit in?” “I don’t fit in.” “Then how do I fit in with not fitting in?” KiKi Maroon: Okay. Stripping coast to coast – was this pre- or post-sobriety?  Bobby Barnaby: Pre-sobriety. Actually, 4/20 was my 11-year anniversary in burlesque! KiKi Maroon: Oh my god! Hahaha. You love dates! You’re really good with dates. Bobby Barnaby: Yeah, I do love dates! I’m very Virgo. I love dates and order and spreadsheets for sure.  KiKi Maroon: I love spreadsheets!  Bobby Barnaby: I love spreadsheets! KiKi Maroon: There is a comedian, Dusti Rhodes. She posted on Facebook, “A lady in the streets and Excel in the sheets!”  Bobby Barnaby: Haha! KiKi Maroon: And I was like, “Please, dear god, make that a t-shirt or a sticker.” I need that on everything that I own! Bobby Barnaby: We need to start a T-shirt business, I think.  KiKi Maroon: Yes, we do! We have lots of catchphrases. Okay, so 11 years.  Bobby Barnaby: 11 years in burlesque. I’ve done a lot of musical theater in my life. I started dancing competitively when I was 10-years-old. So that’s now been 25 years of dance. I did a lot of musical theater. I was in a production of Cabaret and one of the performers was having a party. There was this little competition at the party, and I was like, “Whoa, I’m going to win that!”  KiKi Maroon: Of course! Haha. Bobby Barnaby: So, I tap danced and I sang and I won the competition! Haha! It was a silly little fun thing. But it was very fun. There were some boys there and they said, “Oh, we’re part of this troupe. You should come to a rehearsal and check it out.” Well, I’ve never been invited to be a part of anything in my life. So I think I’m going to take them up on that! I showed up and we just started working on this number. I had no idea what it was for or what we were doing, but I just kept showing up. And then before I knew it, I was making my burlesque debut at Bimbo’s 365 Club in San Francisco for Tease-O-Rama, the original burlesque festival in 2008.  KiKi Maroon: Shut! Up! Bobby Barnaby: I was in this dressing room with Dirty Martini, and Catherine D’lish, and Cirque du Soleil. KiKi Maroon: Oh my god! Bobby Barnaby: And I had no idea who any of them were. KiKi Maroon: Oh my god!  Bobby Barnaby: We were watching from backstage, getting ready for our number and I’m just peering through the curtains being like, “Is this a dream? The little child inside of me has finally arrived where they belong! I don’t even know what’s happening right now!” Our number was- we were hobos with kit bags and we had a live chicken in our act.  KiKi Maroon: Oh my god! Hahaha! Bobby Barnaby: And that’s how I made my burlesque debut on one of the world’s largest stages, at that time, for burlesque! And I just kept dancing! That troupe was called SF Boylesque. We were known as the “Bohemian Brethren”. We were the first all-male neo-burlesque troupe in the country. They started in 2006; I joined them in 2008. I danced with them for five years, then the show kind of ended. Then I just kept going. I wanted to do solo stuff, so I started applying to festivals solo. I’ve now performed in more than 35 burlesque festivals.  KiKi Maroon: Wow! Bobby Barnaby: I’ve stripped in 15 US cities. I’ve stripped coast to coast in Canada, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, and 13 other countries in Europe and what-not.  KiKi Maroon: That’s amazing!  Bobby Barnaby: Yeah! And I’m actually the current reigning King of Texas Burlesque Festival and the Amsterdam Burlesque Festival.  KiKi Maroon: Oh! Haha! I love that dichotomy. Bobby Barnaby: Haha! Yeah, right? KiKi Maroon: King of Texas and Amsterdam.  Bobby Barnaby: Yeah, why not?!  KiKi Maroon: Oh my god. That is amazing!  Bobby Barnaby: It’s been really a wild ride and I didn’t choose it; this life chose me. I got plucked out of it and the Universe, my Higher Power, the Divine decided, “This is where you belong, little boy who’s lost. Come here.” And that’s where I ended up! Burlesque has been my life, my godsend, my family. I found my family here.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah.  Bobby Barnaby: I believe very much in chosen family and I am very honored to be in the House of Famous. I was adopted by World Famous *BOB*, who is my drag mother.  KiKi Maroon: I love her! Bobby Barnaby: And my siblings – Kitty von Quim and Siomai Moore and Louisiana Purchase and Precious Ephemera and Matt Knife. We’re a family. We’re really, really a family. I was talking to Precious on the phone last night until two in the morning in my car, driving *BOB* home. And it’s really amazing to find your family when you feel like you don’t necessarily have one. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Did you move to Austin on *BOB*’s suggestion, because she moved here first, right? Or was that just random? Bobby Barnaby: Kitty von Quim, my best friend and my sister, we met each other in San Francisco. We lived there, performed all over the place together, then she and her wife decided to move to Austin. I came out to visit. I had a one month break off from Clown School, and I came for the whole month. I was like, “Okay, this is pretty cool. I like it.” And then, I ended up coming back in April for the Texas Burlesque Festival of that year. So that was in April, just a week after I had ended my marriage and moved out of my home. And we were laying by the pool, eating snacks, dancing, and I wasn’t really happy with my living situation. And I just thought to myself, “I don’t know where you belong in the world right now, but I think you belong here with your family.” And so I decided to just come and move here, and try things out.  KiKi Maroon: Good! I’m so glad that you had that. That’s a hard time. Bobby Barnaby: It is. KiKi Maroon: I’ve not been divorced, but I was engaged and we broke up. You have these ideas of what your life is going to be, or what your world is. And when that’s taken away, it’s jarring.  Bobby Barnaby: It is. KiKi Maroon: And it’s easy to spiral.  Bobby Barnaby: Yeah. I had just gotten sober recently before that. I say that getting sober, for me, was like waking up at your first sleepover ever. And I woke up in that bed with my husband and I was like, “Where the fuck am I? And who the fuck are you?” I didn’t know who I was. I didn’t know why I was where I was. I didn’t know any of those things. All of this life that I had set up didn’t feel right. It was kind of that realization that you’ve known it for a really long time and you just weren’t able to accept it. So you just kept getting drunk. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, you lied to yourself for a real long time.  Bobby Barnaby: I did. And so I thought, “Well, I’m a brand-new person. I’m a brand-new clown out of school. And I need to go out and find my brand-new life.”  KiKi Maroon: This is why I like doing the podcast. I like to talk to people who can understand that. Because it’s so hard to explain if you’ve not experienced it. The best way I can say it is – it felt like reality was rushing at me. And in a year, I “grew up,”. I made up for 15 years of not developing as a person. Bobby Barnaby: Absolutely. KiKi Maroon: And I had no idea how emotionally and mentally stunted I was. You know, I was learning things that – I don’t want to say the word “normal” – but a “non-alcoholic,” these life lessons that they would have learned at like 16 and 18 and 20, and now I am in my 30s and was just like, “Oh, this is what being sad is. Okay.” It’s just learning how to process what feeling is, and it’s so intense! You’re just like, “This is why I was running away! This shit is hard. How are you walking through the world like this?!” Bobby Barnaby: Haha oh my god.Absolutely. “This shit is hard.” It’s funny – in meetings, they say that our stories are unique, but the human experience is not unique. Something that I really realized through sobriety is that we’re all the same. We all have the same general fears. We all go through things the same. And I don’t know about you, but I was a chronic user from the age of 13 until my 30s. And a lot of psychologists say that when you use any substance chronically that your brain stops developing at the age that you started that use. And then when you stop using, your brain continues to develop. So a lot of us come out of these 15-year stupors, and we’re teenagers. We don’t know how to deal with feelings and we don’t know how to sit with feelings. I never sat with a feeling and felt it in its original form – ever. I was always either making it bigger or making it smaller; you know, making my happiness bigger or making my sadness smaller. And a lot of people say, “You don’t have to feel happy to be happy.” I didn’t understand that. I always had to feel happy or I was going to feel sad. KiKi Maroon: Wow, I did not know that; what you just said about the thing that psychologists say – that that’s when you basically stop progressing?  Bobby Barnaby: Yeah.  KiKi Maroon: I’ve always tried to explain in my non-scientific terms how I’ve tried to process this. I did not know that. That makes complete sense to me.  Bobby Barnaby: It really does, and exactly what you were saying. Right when I got between six to nine months sober, I started feeling. And it’s hard to explain that, but I didn’t feel things. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, but you thought you did. I was like, “Of course, I’m always happy. I’m the life of the party. Everything is so much fun!” Bobby Barnaby: “Experiencing life, ya’ll!” – No.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah, no, no no. I had no idea.  Bobby Barnaby: You start feeling for the first time and it’s a fucking doozy! And I tried to be very rational. Rationalize my feelings. And it was very, very confusing and hard for me when I made peace with something in my mind, why my body and soul and heart wouldn’t stop feeling.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah.  Bobby Barnaby: I’m like, “We’re good now.”  KiKi Maroon: Hahaha! “Stop it.”  Bobby Barnaby: “Let’s move on. Get some ice cream and let’s go.” Haha. KiKi Maroon: I started listening to Oprah’s podcast, SuperSoul Conversations. And she was talking to Eckhart Tolle Bobby Barnaby: Yes!  KiKi Maroon: It’s something that’s been repeating in my head now. That if you don’t fully process a fear, or just a negative emotion – fear, sadness, whatever – you carry that with you forever. Until something triggers you later – a day later, a week later, a year later, whatever. And you have that feeling again, just remembering that thing. And you can try to process it then, or smash it back down, but it’s going to come back again later. And that you have to fully process those feelings, or you’re carrying it with you forever. And I was like, “Fuuuck!” Bobby Barnaby: Yes. I feel that majorly right now. I’ve just actually gone through my fourth step for the first time. Because in true rebel, outsider fashion, I did not have a sponsor for the first two or three years of my sobriety, which I do not recommend. I was like, “I’m doing this my way.”  KiKi Maroon: Oh no…Haha.  Bobby Barnaby: I recommend having a sponsor and working the steps – it’s all there for a reason. But at the same time, it is your program and you get to decide what you do. But going through that fourth step, and if you’re unfamiliar, the fourth is when you’re going through every single reason why you drank, basically. And all of those feelings that you didn’t feel completely before, you fucking feel them in one week’s time. You know? All of them. And you break those down to where those fears came from, all of your resentments. So, I said, “reasons why you drink,” but it’s mainly about resentments and anger, which for me, is why I drank. Breaking down those resentments to fears and where those fears come from and what’s behind those fears – and what’s behind those fears and what’s behind those fears – and feeling them. And really, doing it all at once is super painful and hard, and requires a lot of bubble baths. But it’s so freeing to get a little bit of peace. And maybe you might have to circle around and do it again, you know, but it’s really an amazing process. KiKi Maroon: Okay, so here’s the thing…  I like going to meetings. I love hearing people’s stories and that’s where I feel the least lonely, basically. Just the connection.  Bobby Barnaby: Yes, absolutely. KiKi Maroon: I honestly never talk to anybody after them or anything. I see people go and have coffee together and talk. I’m like, “I got my connection. I gotta go.”   Bobby Barnaby: Yeah.  KiKi Maroon: But I will go three, or six, or eight months with out going. And it’s only when I feel myself spiralingout, just not taking care of myself that I go. I don’t usuallyget an itch to start drinking again; it’s not even that anymore. I just get really depressed, dark, overwhelmed, and lonely; all these negative things pile up.So I go to a meeting and I’m like, “Everything’s fixed.” And then I don’t go back. Bobby Barnaby: Yeah, that sounds about right.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. So, actually just three weeks ago, I was like, “I’m going every week now. I’m going because this is better. I know this is good for me.” So, I’m like three years, going, “Okay, now I’m actually going to work the program versus visiting and then running away.”  Bobby Barnaby: Yeah, yeah.  KiKi Maroon: So, I am just starting that. I’m going to ask you a question; and maybe this is why you’re supposed to have a sponsor. Haha. So, I have the Big Book…  Bobby Barnaby: Yeah. KiKi Maroon: I’m reading it.  Bobby Barnaby: Yeah. KiKi Maroon: But I always hear people talk about, “Well, you got to work the steps.” I’m like, “Okay, I’m reading it.” But… when you first go to meetings, there’s never like a welcome packet saying, “Here’s how you do this thing!” So people go, and they talk, and then you walk away. And I’m like… “I thought there was going to be like a worksheet or something?” I’m reading, I’m doing it in my head… What are you supposed to do? Is what I’m asking. Haha. Bobby Barnaby: Yes, your sponsor is your guide. Your sponsor is your person.  KiKi Maroon: But who tells that person? Bobby Barnaby: Their sponsor! It’s a trickle-down effect. So, my sponsor has a sponsor, and her sponsor has a sponsor, and it’s a trickle-down…  KiKi Maroon: It’s a pyramid scheme! Haha. Bobby Barnaby: It’s a pyramid scheme! It’s a Ponzi scheme! No, it’s not. That’s terrible. So, the 12th step is, you know, to…   KiKi Maroon: Service, right? Bobby Barnaby: Service and trying to help the next alcoholic. It is a trickle-down effect. And so my sponsor is helping me in the way that her sponsor helped her. Every sponsorship is different and you’re going to work the steps differently. I do have a workbook that we use.  KiKi Maroon: Okay, okay. Bobby Barnaby: It has worksheets in it and it’s very Virgo. “This week, you’re reading this page to this page. And then we’re going to talk about that page to that page. And here’s your activity that we’re going to do to help you work through – this part of the book or part of the steps.”  KiKi Maroon: Okay. Bobby Barnaby: Everybody does it differently, though. So it’s about finding the right person. And I didn’t think that I was going to be able to find the right person. I thought, “I’m a performer, I like to travel, they’re not going to be okay with me missing a week.”  KiKi Maroon: “They’re not going to get me, man.”  Bobby Barnaby: “They’re not going to get me, man! They’re not going to realize that I’ve got other priorities.” And things like that. But my sponsor found me. My Divine Intervention sent me a person. They were a friend of a friend that needed a place to stay. And so I hosted them, and she latched on, and I flew away with her. Actually, it’s unconventional – she lives in LA and we meet over Skype once a week for two hours.  KiKi Maroon: Oh, wow! Bobby Barnaby: So it doesn’t have to be conventional at all. But yeah, just reading the Big Book is not working the steps, unfortunately.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah…  Bobby Barnaby: You get points for reading the Big Book, but you’re not working the steps quite yet. It really does take somebody else to explain what’s going on, explain what you’re supposed to do, and help you take it one step at a time. Because just reading through it, you’re missing all the little pieces of gold that are sprinkled in there. And also, to have someone help you. You know that book was written in the 1930s.  KiKi  Maroon: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.  Bobby Barnaby: It’s very outdated, and there are reasons why it hasn’t been updated. And after a while, you get over that. You get over the archaic language and you’re like, “Okay, I’m just going to take it for what it is. And I’m going to take my piece and kind of dismiss the parts that don’t resonate with me, or that I feel are a little misogynistic” or what have you. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, yeah I got like three pages into the, “Being the Wife of the Alcoholic…” And I had to skip. Bobby Barnaby: Ohh, yeah. KiKi Maroon: I was like, “I can’t.” There’s like 20 more pages about “dealing with him.”  Bobby Barnaby: I remember reading that chapter in a meeting, and I was newer in my sobriety, and I was just like, “Fuck this.” Haha. I would also be that person in meetings that would change all of the “he” and the “God” to “she” or “They” – you know, change the language a little bit. And then I realized, “That’s not the point. You’re missing the point. You’re getting hung up on the wrong thing and you’re just finding something to be angry about.” KiKi Maroon: Yeah, to not absorb it all. Bobby Barnaby: And I would do the same thing when I first went to meetings. This was my situation: I have crippling anxiety, especially social anxiety. I was so scared to be in those rooms and so nervous, that I would have to get high to go to an AA meeting. I would have to get loaded just to be able to sit there for an hour and not run out of the room. KiKi Maroon: Hahaha oh my god, that’s the best! Hahaha! I understand it though, because it took me forever. People were like, “Yeah, there are meetings everywhere. Just go.” And I would drive, sit in the parking lot, and then leave. Because I didn’t understand, “I’m just going to walk into a room with people I don’t know? That’s crazy!” Bobby Barnaby: I would use every excuse, too. “Oh, I’m late. That’s rude. I shouldn’t go.” KiKi Maroon: Last week, I was so proud of myself because I was having that same feeling. I told myself I was going to go. But then I thought, “By the time I get there, it’s already going to be five minutes in. I’m going to be rude.” And I’m like, “No, just go!”  Bobby Barnaby: You still get 55 minutes of sanity. KiKi Maroon: I forced myself to go and, like always, I felt better afterwards.  Bobby Barnaby: I don’t think anybody walks out of a meeting and is like, “I feel worse!”  KiKi Maroon: Hahaha! Yeah. Bobby Barnaby: I don’t think that that happens. I feel. You can feel for sure. It can bring up a lot of feelings. But you know, I used to sit there and wait for the Serenity Prayer and then I would bolt. I’d be like, “Don’t talk to me please. I can’t handle that. Don’t give me your phone number. I won’t use it!” And I used to have this thing too. People would say, “I’m Billy and I’m a grateful alcoholic.” And in my head, I would go, “Well, fuck you, Billy.” KiKi Maroon: I have not heard that, and I’m glad I didn’t. Bobby Barnaby: A lot of people like to say, “I’m a grateful alcoholic.” And it used to drive me crazy. I was like, “Well, I’m here just to try to stay alive for one more hour, Billy. So I’m glad that you’re fucking grateful.”  KiKi Maroon: Hahahahaha! Bobby Barnaby: And now, I too, am a grateful alcoholic. You do turn the corner on that. I also say to my sponsor sometimes – because I like to isolate and because I have so much anxiety – “I wish I could just watch a meeting on television. If they had meetings on Netflix, I would be so healed right now.” And that’s not the truth. There’s a visceral experience that you get when you resonate with someone else’s story. And if you have the gall to share some of your own story as well, you always feel better, you always feel a little bit lighter than when you walked in the room for some reason. And it’s hard to get there. Sometimes I go a while without one. But luckily, I have my own personal meeting with my sponsor every week.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah, so you know that you’re covered. Bobby Barnaby: And that doesn’t replace meetings, but it is a good way. Also, I think I heard you mention in another podcast that you go to meetings in other cities, which I also do. That’s so great.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah! Bobby Barnaby: I’ve been to meetings on cruise ships. I’ve been to meetings in Europe in languages that I didn’t speak. I’ve created meetings at burlesque festivals just like Kay Sera (at the Burlesque Hall of Fame Weekender in Las Vegas – check out Episode 3!) does.  KiKi Maroon: Oh yeah! Bobby Barnaby: And those are some of the best meetings ever!  KiKi Maroon: I think I finally found a home group. It’s only been a couple of weeks; we’ll see. But I associated meetings with vacation/work. Bobby Barnaby: Right.  KiKi Maroon: And so, it was part of the self-care, “I’m going to do this thing, I’m going to go to the beach, and I’m going to go to the meeting.” So then when I was home, I thought, “I don’t have time for that right now.” I would always put myself on the back burner because I have so much to do. And I tell myself, “I’m too busy for that.” So I could not get myself to go to one in Houston. Then this last year, I traveled very little because I was dealing with all the hospital stuff and it was just so much. So I was like, “Well, I guess I don’t get to go to meetings!” Haha. There’s always an excuse. Bobby Barnaby: Haha. Right. There always will be an excuse.  KiKi Maroon: I have a lot of overachiever in me. The co-dependent overachiever in me was like, “I just need to get a book and I’ll work through it myself. I don’t need anybody.” And then when I found out the 12th step was “service to others,” I was like, “Well, that’s what the fucking podcast is! I’m done! I did all this stuff! I’m helping people with the podcast!” Bobby Barnaby: Tick those boxes, baby. “Why am I not healed?”  KiKi Maroon: “I’m fixed, right? I’m fixed! This other sad that I have now.” Haha.  Bobby Barnaby: I think that there’s a mentality sometimes that meetings are rescue devices, and absolutely they can be. When I first got sober, I went to every kind of meeting. In San Francisco, there are more than 200 meetings a day.  KiKi Maroon: Oh, I believe it. Bobby Barnaby: I went; I didn’t care what kind of meeting it was. There’s this amazing website called The Next 20 Meetings in San Francisco and it just serves you the next 20 meetings at any given moment throughout the city.  KiKi Maroon: Oh, wow! Bobby Barnaby: And I would just go. I’ve been to every type of 12-step program that there is, I think. I’ve been to OA, Overeaters Anonymous. I’ve been to the NA meetings (Narcotics Anonymous). I’ve been to, you know, all of them. The CMA meetings, the crystal meth meetings, all of those things. And it’s all the same program pretty much. But I didn’t care what it was. I was just like, “I need a rescue right now. I need to be sitting in a meeting so that I’m not sitting in a bar.”  KiKi Maroon: Yeah.  Bobby Barnaby: So I didn’t really have a home meeting either. And then when I found a home meeting, I realized, “Oh, this is not only a rescue device, but this is like…”   KiKi Maroon: It’s maintenance.  Bobby Barnaby: “It’s maintenance.” It’s constant maintenance that you’re doing. And not only maintenance, but progression.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah.  Bobby Barnaby: You’re doing forward thinking work, not just fixing what’s going on right now. And then you’ll hear the story of that 70-year-old white man that has not lived your life at all. And he’ll say something from your story. KiKi Maroon: You still relate. Bobby Barnaby: I’ve been to meetings in the Tenderloin in San Francisco, where people are using drugs – outside, shooting up – and then walking into the meeting to get their slips signed.  KiKi Maroon: Oh, wow. Bobby Barnaby: And those people will sit down and they will say something that you’re like, “Yeah! That’s my story too.” Like I was saying, the human experience is not unique. We all have something that is relatable.  KiKi Maroon: Well, I think now. I just like meetings in general now. But you know, you’re talking about the whole, “Fuck you, grateful alcoholic!” Like, bitter me? Bobby Barnaby: Right.  KiKi Maroon: I couldn’t absorb anything, because I could just look at them and dismiss it, “You don’t understand.” Bobby Barnaby: I also have an aversion to what they call “young people’s meetings.”  KiKi Maroon: Oh yeah?  Bobby Barnaby: Yes. Because I actually resonate with older people. I feel more safe. I feel like, “Oh, they’re young people. They’re going to fucking judge me. It’ll be just like high school. That’ll be terrible. They’re all covered in tattoos… just like me.”  KiKi Maroon: “They think they’re sooo cool.”  Bobby Barnaby: “They think they’re sooo cool!” And I’m not going to be cool enough for them. I’m not going to be hard enough. My addiction isn’t going to be bad enough, that it’s not going to be valid for them.  KiKi Maroon: Haha, yeah. Bobby Barnaby: So I do have an aversion to those. I like queer meetings. I’m a queer person, and it makes me feel safe to be in a room with other queers and allies. That’s what makes me feel the most safe. Especially here in Texas.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Bobby Barnaby: I’m afraid of being judged. I have a fear of that. And that’s just where I feel the safest. And the beauty of a home meeting is that those people get to know you, whether you like it or not. When you speak, they remember things about you because they feel the same way as you. KiKi Maroon: And that was the thing at this meeting. A couple of times, she called on people by their name when they were kind of nodding to share. And I was like, “They know each other here.” And that was so… because again, I usually go in different cities. So, it was like, “Okay, this is… I can meet people here.” I had that safe feeling.  Bobby Barnaby: Yeah. KiKi Maroon: “I need to come back here.” It felt… yeah. Just hearing her call their names. I’m like, “This is different.” Bobby Barnaby: It is different. And also, get that phone list, girl! Get that phone list!  KiKi Maroon: I don’t even know what that means. Haha! Bobby Barnaby: Every meeting has a phone list.  KiKi Maroon: Okay! Bobby Barnaby: Every meeting has a phone list to call on people for support. And you will get that phone list and you’ll put it somewhere. I put the phone list in my travel bag actually. It lives in my suitcase so that when I am on vacation or traveling, I know that I can call Tina or Lucy or whoever.  KiKi Maroon: Okay. Bobby Barnaby: There becomes a time where you will be healthfully addicted to meetings. And the honesty that happens there, you know? And you go outside and you’re like, “This is all fake. You don’t care how I am. You just asked me how I am and you don’t care how I am.”  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Bobby Barnaby: But inside of a meeting, someone asks you how you are and you know that they really are asking because they want to know that you’re okay, because they know that at times they’re not okay. And it can be really just an amazing safe place. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Last time I was in Austin, I was talking to John Rabon and he was talking about how, post-rehab, that was something that he and other people have had issues with. You get used to extreme honesty. Bobby Barnaby: Yes! KiKi Maroon: Especially when you’re doing live-in rehab, all day, every day. And then they release you out into the world. You’re just used to speaking with no filter, so the looks you get back when they’re not prepared for an honest answer to, “How are you doing?” Hahaha. Bobby Barnaby: Right. And, you know, it’s kind of interesting that I got sober right after I started clowning. Clowning really helped me through my tough time of getting sober. And the thing about clowning is that it is rigorous honesty as well. There’s so much fear in the world. There are so many rules, like you can’t dress a certain way. You can’t be rude, especially here in the South. You have to be polite all the time. You have to be okay; you have to be fine when someone asks how you are. You can’t honk your horn, for god’s sake. All these things that you are conditioned to, that this is how you act as a human being.  KiKi Maroon: Haha yeah. We’ve agreed upon this. Bobby Barnaby: And if you act a different way, you’re breaking the social contract that we’ve made- that you have to sign, whether you like it or not! Haha. And clowning is the opposite of that. There are no rules in clowning. You get to break all the rules. You get to hold a mirror up to society and say, “Look at all those stupid rules that you made that I don’t have to follow. Aren’t you jealous of me?” And that’s what I love about clowning and AA, and how they’re similar is that there is rigorous honesty that the rest of the world is not ready for. It is a beautiful thing that we can live as examples to how that can be influential in your life. KiKi Maroon: My story is very opposite when I was clowning. When I was just getting into it, especially being the “burlesque clown,” I got a free pass, basically. Bobby Barnaby: Oh yeah. KiKi Maroon: You can just steal people’s drinks and just poke them in the stomach afterwards; it was fine! I could just get away with anything… Bobby Barnaby: Anything. KiKi Maroon: …because I was dressed like a clown, so I’m not being “rude”. I’m being “funny”! I could talk shit to your face, dance on bars, take off clothes, everything was acceptable.  Bobby Barnaby: Yeah. KiKi Maroon: So I took that to the most extreme level. Bobby Barnaby: Ohh, yes. Haha. KiKi Maroon: “Well, then I’m going to get fucked up and do every drug. I can do all this stuff and nobody’s judging me because I’m just being a clown!” Bobby Barnaby: Yeah. I mean, it’s easy to abuse power, isn’t it? KiKi Maroon: Oh no! Bobby Barnaby: “With great power comes great responsibility.” With great clowning comes great responsibility, right? KiKi Maroon: Haha, yes! I am a good clown now! Haha. What made you stop drinking? Did you have a rock bottom, or what was going on? Bobby Barnaby: You know, I did have a rock bottom. I somehow survived it and stayed alive. I got to a point where I would wake up in the morning and I would pour myself a tumbler of vodka. I would either drink the whole thing and pour a second one or just nurse that one while I got ready, just depending on the day. And then I would fill my flask and go to work, and I would drink from my flask in the broom closet at work. I was working on PIER 39 (in San Francisco), the number three tourist attraction in the United States, which is hell to work at. KiKi Maroon: I’m sure. Yeah. You’re surrounded by children and families and tourists. Bobby Barnaby: Yeah. And I was working at Bubba Gump Shrimp Co., where you have to be “Gump-y” every day! Haha! KiKi Maroon: Oh my god. Haha! Bobby Barnaby: So, you know, I would get off work and I would drink my allotted two beers at work; you can only drink two beers at work. And then I would go down to the other end of the pier. And I was actually also doing a musical on PIER 39. So, I was spending about six days a week, 14 hours a day on PIER 39. KiKi Maroon: I have to tell you really quick – post-probation, that was my thing. When I could finally leave Houston… I love California, specifically the coastal highway. So once I could leave, I was like, “Fuck you, I’m getting out!” I went out there, visited friends in LA, drove the coast, listened to Led Zeppelin and cried on the fucking cliffs. You know, just trying to figure out my life. And then I went up to San Francisco to visit a friend and ended up on PIER 39. And so I was eating, I don’t even know what restaurant. I’m going to say Bubba Gump Shrimp Co. for the sake of the story. Haha. I was eating at some restaurant, just staring out, because you can see Alcatraz from there. And I was like, “This is symbolism. Look at me staring at that jail! Free! Having my martini!” Haha. Bobby Barnaby: Yeah! “Bring on the clam chowder!” KiKi Maroon: “You can’t stop me now!” Haha. Bobby Barnaby: Haha. Ooh, yeah, yeah. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. I drank my martinis and got back in the car and kept driving around. Bobby Barnaby: Of course you did. KiKi Maroon: It’s what I did. Bobby Barnaby: Yeah. I would get high with my friends. I would do my show. We would go across to the cheaper bars and I would drink all my giant male friends under the table because I had been drinking all day and I was just sustaining and they were getting drunk fast and falling off. And I was like, “Come on, keep up boys.” And then I would drive home. I was driving to and from work every day – drunk. That was a terrible time. I had one of those times where after that time period that was really bad, I cut back a little bit, you know. Fast forward to years later, I found myself kind of in the same situation – losing a partner. I saw my history and I saw myself in the same situation and I saw that full circle coming. I saw what I was capable of and surprised that I avoided that lightning strike the first time; I didn’t kill myself or anybody else. And I said to myself, “That probably won’t happen twice. You’re probably not going to make it through a second time.” And I was talking to a friend at work and I was telling her about this, and I was like, “But I’m okay right now. Yes, my drinking is out of control right now, but I know that it’s out of control. So at least I’m aware of that.”If it gets really bad, I know a sober performing bartender who’s kind of in the same position as me that I could reach out to. If it gets bad.” And she looked at me and – this was the life changing moment – she looked at me and said, “Why are you going to wait for it to get bad, honey?” And it was like, “Whoa.”  KiKi Maroon: Whoa. Bobby Barnaby: “You’re right. I can be proactive about this.” So I got off work and I called that person that I had made mention of. And they told me about the Next 20 Meetings website. I went to a meeting that day and I have not had a drink since that day. KiKi Maroon: You played the tape before you knew what “play the tape” was. Bobby Barnaby: Yes! KiKi Maroon: That’s amazing! Bobby Barnaby: I did. And I feel really lucky to have that person in my life –  Miss B. We love Miss B! It’s just like something clicked, you know? I was listening to some of your other podcasts and there’s a moment for people sometimes where something clicks, you know? I wasn’t at rock bottom, but I was at a point where I was afraid of myself and what I was capable of. And I had never been in a place where I was afraid of myself. I was afraid of everything else in my life, but not of myself and the destructive behavior that I knewI was capable of. And that was it for me. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Wow. I think it’s so interesting that you were even in that space,capable of seeing that and hearing that. I feel like you could have just as easily, when she said that, just rolled your eyes, you know, because we’re in that state. Bobby Barnaby: Absolutely. KiKi Maroon: Rolled your eyes and been like, “Oh, she just doesn’t understand.” So that it hit you like you needed… I guess it’s exactly the thing you needed to hear at that time. Bobby Barnaby: I really believe in divine timing. We can play these games once we get sober, like, “Oh my god, I wasted so much time being drunk” or “I wasted so much of my life. I wasted so much of my youth. I wasted time being in dead end relationships. I wasn’t following my dreams.” And it’s really easy to say all that, but I think everything happens for a reason at the right time when you’re ready to receive that information. And you know what? Maybe somebody said that to me 50 times. And it was that time, at that moment where I heard it. I was ableto hear it for somereason. And it clicked, you know? Being in the program and having friends or acquaintances or other meeting buddies that are going through it or relapse, or you see your friend that is an obvious suffering alcoholic. They say, “Oh, I’m an alcoholic,” in jest. You know, like I used to do, “Oh yeah, I’m professional!” KiKi Maroon: Ohh yeah. Oh my god. I just got a Facebook memory that was like me joking. It was like, “Is ‘functioning alcoholic’ a compliment? Hahaha!” Bobby Barnaby: Exactly. KiKi Maroon: Like, oh god! Bobby Barnaby: You know, making light of those things, but you can’t help those people. You can’t make those people get sober. You can offer support. You can be there. You can offer advice. You can say, “Hey, I’m going to a meeting. Would you like to come with me?” But you can’t make that person get sober. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, absolutely not. Bobby Barnaby: And no one could have made me get sober until I was ready to hear that bit of knowledge. KiKi Maroon: Are there a lot of sober performers in San Francisco? Did you find it difficult performing afterwards? Because that’s a huge change. Bobby Barnaby: There are actually a lot of sober performers in San Francisco, especially in the drag scene. KiKi Maroon: Oh, okay! Bobby Barnaby: Because the drag scene is very old. There are some old Queens there! There are some Queens – some amazing Queens – that I’m lucky enough to call friends who have been sober for 20-plus years. You know, what’s funny is that I had a home meeting in San Francisco and there was somebody that came up to me and said, “Oh, you’re a performer? I’m not. But I go to a meeting on Saturday at noon and there’s a lot of performers there. This person, this person, this person.” And I said, “Oh great, thanks for letting me know! I’m never going to go to that.” KiKi Maroon: Wait, they named the people? Bobby Barnaby: They did name the people. KiKi Maroon: Oh my god! Bobby Barnaby: I don’t think it was a breach of, you know, I knew these people were sober. They knew these people were sober.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. But that still feels like… Bobby Barnaby: We were in a safe space. They may have outed them a little bit, but I think it was with good intentions. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, of course. Bobby Barnaby: And not to somebody outside the program. But I avoided those meetings like the plague because I didn’t want to talk to people I knew. I wanted this perfect, safe space where I could not answer the phone if that person called me. But if I saw someone out at a show, I can’t avoid them. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Bobby Barnaby: Also, if I slipped up and started drinking at a show, I didn’t want those other performers’ eyes on me. I was afraid. And now the BHOF Bill meeting, which is the AA meeting at the Burlesque Hall of Fame Weekender, is my favorite meeting in the world. It’s funny how we turn these corners, because I know that those people know exactly what I’m going through today.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. They understand. Yeah. Bobby Barnaby: They are also at this event, which is a drinking marathon for four days. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, it’s in a casino, it’s Vegas, it’s 24 hours.  Bobby Barnaby: And also, you know, the amazing group on Facebook that we have of sober burlesque performers. It is a little “outing” – you out yourself in a very public way. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. I have deleted posts before. I emotionally posted and then like an hour later, deleted it.  Bobby Barnaby: Haha! Delete that! KiKi Maroon: Because I’m like, “No, they’re going to screen cap it, they’re going to share it!”  Bobby Barnaby: They’re not, they’re not! KiKi Maroon: I know that’s silly. That’s not what this is for. But it’s just, you know, that fear.  Bobby Barnaby: Yeah, of course. KiKi Maroon: But I’m like, “That’s not what this is for. They understand.” Bobby Barnaby: But what it has done for meis- it has outed those people as allies for me. Because, even if I never talk to that person in a meeting, or if I don’t go to a meeting with that person, I can look across the room and say, “That person is my ally and if I need to, right now, I could just go stand next to them and they’re going to know why I’m standing there.” And they’re going to be like, “You got this girl. You’re going to be fine. Would you like a soda water?” So to have those instant allies was just amazing. But yeah, there are a lot of sober performers in San Francisco. And after a while, it became a support network and it turned out that the owner of the bar that I was working for was actually a sober Queen as well. KiKi Maroon: Oh, really? Bobby Barnaby: So it was nice to be able to have that support. KiKi Maroon: Good. I’m glad you had that.  I’m always interested in different places. I mean, people’s experiences in general, but different places. Because Texas is a very beer-heavy drinking place. I mean, Austin’s a party city. Bobby Barnaby: Oh yeah, for sure. KiKi Maroon: Houston’s a party city. So, yeah, I wonder about different cities and how common it is. I do feel like in Austin, through meeting more and more people here. There are a lot more sober people than I thought were here. Bobby Barnaby: Yeah. It’s fun to find people by happenstance too. You’re like, “Oh wait, you don’t drink? Is it just today? Just this week? Are you going on a cleanse, girl?”  KiKi Maroon: Hahahaha! Bobby Barnaby: Like trying to not out yourself, but trying to out yourself at the same time and find an ally. I think that’s really, really fun. And I feel that sometimes people get to a point where they are really open about their sobriety. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. I hit that point. But I hid it for a long time at first.  Bobby Barnaby: Yeah, of course.  KiKi Maroon: One, I don’t want to be accountable if I stopped. But two, I didn’t know how to be open. And at the time, I argued that it was me, just being myself.  “I don’t want to be sober KiKi. I just want to be KiKi! It’s better this way.” And now I’m like- Okay, no. I was just terrified of people knowing me and me being caught if I drank again. Bobby Barnaby: Yeah. KiKi Maroon: And so now I don’t give a shit. I want to tell people so I can connect. Bobby Barnaby: I always had those – my go-to’s – like,  always have a drink in your hand so that nobody buys you a drink. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Yeah.  Bobby Barnaby: So you can just say, “Oh, I have one. I’m good.” KiKi Maroon: Exactly. Yeah. Bobby Barnaby: “I’ve got my own tab!” KiKi Maroon: I would do the club soda with a splash of cranberry. So it looks like a vodka cranberry, maybe. Haha. Bobby Barnaby: Yeah and be like, “Oh, could I get a lime with that soda?” KiKi Maroon: Exactly. Bobby Barnaby: “Could I have that in a fancy glass? Can you just put my soda water in a martini glass please?” Hahaha! KiKi Maroon: Like they’re washing it out! Haha! Bobby Barnaby: But you get to a point where you just don’t give a fuck. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Actually, I visited a friend of mine and she invited me to go to a work function with her with a whole bunch of people. And she was like, “I mean, if you want, I can just buy a beer for you to hold. That way, it’s not weird for you.”  Bobby Barnaby: Haha! KiKi Maroon: And I go, “It’s not weird for me. I don’t care.” She said, “Well… I just don’t want you to feel uncomfortable.” And I was like, “I don’t care. I’m going to have a Coke.” She said, “Well, they just can be very pushy and I don’t want it to be weird for you.” And I was like, “I think this is weird for you. You’re bringing someone who doesn’t drink. I can not come. That’s okay.”  Bobby Barnaby: Yeah. KiKi Maroon: But it’s just projection. And it made me feel bad for imaginary people, if that makes sense. Haha. I’m like, “I’m fine now. But a year ago, I would have answered, ‘Yes. Okay. I’ll hold the beer,’ and then holding the beer leads to, ‘Well, I’m just going to take a little sip, so it looks like I’m drinking it.’” Bobby Barnaby: “Yeah, I’m just going to put it to my lips.” And then…  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. And so like, I was upset for imaginary, weaker people. Haha. Bobby Barnaby: Right! Oh yes, picking up the sword for those people. Yeah. And I think that, you know, everybody has the right to their own decisions and maybe just reminding people that you feel that way is… KiKi Maroon: I’m just going to wear a shirt that says, “I don’t give a fuck.” Bobby Barnaby: “I don’t give a fuck.” KiKi Maroon: Hahaha! That was the best thing that I’ve learned doing this- nobody cares what I’m doing. Bobby Barnaby: Nobody. KiKi Maroon: Like, nothing has to do with me. Anything going on has to do with you and your space, and him and his space, and him and his space, and everybody else. And nobody cares what the fuck I’m doing. It’s been very freeing. Bobby Barnaby: Yeah. You’re reminding me of another great book The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom (A Toltec Wisdom Book) by Don Miguel Ruiz. Are you familiar with that? KiKi Maroon: I am not. Bobby Barnaby: Oh my gosh! The Four Agreements will change your life. It’s a lot of spiritual talk and it reads kind of like a lecture, but the takeaway is really amazing. And it’s basically – if you make these four agreements to yourself, you’ll live a happier life. On whatever level you can. One: to not take anything personally, knowing that everything that everybody does is about them; it’s not about you. Two: to always try your best. And to remember that your best is different from day to day.  KiKi Maroon: Oh, I don’t know that one. Haha. Bobby Barnaby: Well, you know, we’re in different situations. Maybe you’re sick and your best isn’t your best. KiKi Maroon: Then I failed that day. Bobby Barnaby: No, you tried your best based on what you have.  KiKi Maroon: I’ll work on that… Bobby Barnaby: You can work on it. Three: to be impeccable with your word, to follow through. Not tell lies and things like that. And … there’s a fourth one out there somewhere. Haha. KiKi Maroon: Haha! Well, I’ve got two out of four so far. I feel good about the two.  Bobby Barnaby: Yeah! KiKi Maroon: Yeah. I definitely have issues with being the best. Although – so, I have this thing…  Bobby Barnaby: I remembered! Four: don’t make any assumptions. KiKi Maroon: Oh, yes. Yes. Bobby Barnaby: Yeah. Like assuming that that person hates you because you’re sober. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Well, er, okay. Bobby Barnaby: They don’t hate you. They just… KiKi Maroon: They’re dealing with their things. Bobby Barnaby: They’re dealing with their own addiction. KiKi Maroon: So, I’m doing this thing right now where if I can’t fix this – my brokennesses – I’m trying to use it to my advantage. Bobby Barnaby: Oh, yeah? KiKi Maroon: And so, I tend to put my self-care… it’s not even my last priority. It’s not a priority. And it’ll spiral. I think it’s kind of like what you said earlier about how clowning has saved your life. Bobby Barnaby: Absolutely. KiKi Maroon: I realized… so I have a bad back and it goes out. From too much stress and performing and all this stuff. And when it happens, I’m out for a couple of days. The last time it happened, I was just lying in bed, depressed and angry at the world because I can’t move. And I’m like, “I know what I’m supposed to do. I am supposed to go to physical therapy. I’m supposed to exercise. I’m not supposed to eat these foods.” I have this list of things I’m supposed to do, but I get busy with shows and I’ve got to produce all this stuff that I’m planning. And so, it just becomes the thing I don’t even think about. And I realized that… my career saved me. Bobby Barnaby: Yeah. KiKi Maroon: I have lost so many relationships, family members, cars, houses, things… I’ve hit multiple rock bottoms but my shows were my constant. Bobby Barnaby: Yeah. KiKi Maroon: And when everything was falling apart, I could put on my makeup and say, “I’ll cry later. KiKi’s got shit to do.”  Bobby Barnaby: Yeah. KiKi Maroon: And just push everything down, get through the show, and be okay. “I’ll deal with it later.”  And so, it’s pulled me out of many, we’ll say, “passive suicidal states.” Bobby Barnaby: Sure. KiKi Maroon: So I feelthat I have a debt to “the career”, to my shows. And so my personalshit is not a priority. The thing that saved me is the most important thing in the world. Once I realized that’s what was going on in my head, I was like, “Okay, that’s broken!” So, I’m trying to turn my self-care in my head to part of the show. Like, “Well, the show stopped when I don’t take care of myself because I’m hurt. So, this is not good for the show.” I’m having to somehow manipulate the story in order to take care of myself. Haha. Bobby Barnaby: Well, you know, I’m really glad that the shows were a reason for you to stick around on the planet for a little bit longer. But I also …maybe… flip that script a little bit? KiKi Maroon: Haha! And I’m working on that. Bobby Barnaby: And I absolutely resonate with, “It’s show time!” But maybe a little bit, we’re using that as an escape from our life and our problems? KiKi Maroon: You think I’m using the circus as an escape from my life?! What are you talking about?! Hahaha! Bobby Barnaby: Haha! I don’t know. It’s just an idea. Just is a theory I’m working on over here. KiKi Maroon: I’m just constantly running away into fantasies, “but it’s my job, so it’s okay!” Bobby Barnaby: Yeah, okay, sure. You’re getting paid for it. It’s ok! Hahah. I think that that has many faces. Reading, Netflix, you know, escaping life, drinking and getting drunk. All of those things are escaping your life and they’re escaping what you really need to be focusing on, which is yourself.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Bobby Barnaby: Because if you yourself are not healthy, happy, joyous, and free, then you can’t give yourself completely to your art. I think as artists, there are so many layers, but I think that a lot of us are dedicated to making a change. Making art as a political statement, as a progressive movement, or as an important escape for other people’s lives. But if we’re not fully present, we can’t make our biggest impact as an artist. So, you know, you can try to put on that face, but if your back doesn’t work, you can just go and be a pretty face! I encourage you to take care of yourself so that you can be the best artist that you can be and really influence those lives. The thing I love about art is that you can never meet someone in person, but you can create a visceral, emotional response in somebody else, just through the human connection. That doesn’t have to happen verbally or one-on-one. And there’s a huge presence that is required. And, lots of artists, who made really big impacts were on LSD or whatever. But I feel like really being present in your art is something that is a gift. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, I agree. I was actually just talking to my assistant, July, about there being a kind of magicin invoking a chosenemotion in a stranger. Bobby Barnaby: Yeah. Yeah. It’s really, really powerful. And that is the reason why I get on stage. I actually, I was a mute as a child. KiKi Maroon: Oh?? Bobby Barnaby: I was a selective mute for… KiKi Maroon: You just have a way of being more and more interesting! Bobby Barnaby: Dropping those bombs! Pshhh! I did not speak until I got on stage. KiKi Maroon: Oh my god! Bobby Barnaby: I was a selective mute, so I would talk to a few family members, but as little as possible. It was so bad that I couldn’t even ask for basic needs to be met in school. I would wet my pants instead of asking to go to the bathroom. I would not eat if I didn’t have lunch, those type of things. And I didn’t start speaking until I got on stage. I started competing in dance when I was 10. I didn’t know how to express myself. I didn’t know how to express my emotions, my feelings, my fears. I’m a child of an abusive home and getting the chance to create emotion and emote through my body without having to speak because everyone is always trying to get me to speak, speak, speak. That is something that I’ve always held onto and it’s the number one way that I communicate my soul and my expression and my emotions. More than anything else, it makes more sense to me to put those words into my body. And the fact that I can go on stage and do that and then people understand what I’m trying to say? You know, people come up to you afterwards and they’ll say, “Oh, I loved your story about…” you know, and they’ll have something that you’re like, “Oh, I wasn’t saying that at all, but that’s what you heard?” KiKi Maroon: Yeah, and they needed to hear that. Bobby Barnaby: And they needed to hear that. Yeah. And then, even better than that for me is when someone knows what I am saying. And it’s like, “You got it! You understood.” KiKi Maroon: Ahh! Gives me chills. Bobby Barnaby: “You understood what I’m trying to say and I can’t verbally say.” And that is the reason why I will never leave the stage. I will be – god-granted – a 95-year-old person on stage dancing in a wheelchair, hoping to reach somebody else’s spirit and have that connection, because that is the truest connection that I’ve been able to find in this world. KiKi Maroon: So, we’re at the final question, which makes me sad because I am having so much fun. I’m just enjoying this so much. I love speaking with you. Hearing you talk is just… Bobby Barnaby: Thank you. KiKi Maroon: I’m glad we’ve done this. Bobby Barnaby: Me too. KiKi Maroon: So, if you could snap your fingers and everyone around the world instantly believed two things- what would they be? The only thing is that one has to be totally selfish and self-serving and the other one has to be good for humanity. Bobby Barnaby: Hmm, I want the world to know so many things! KiKi Maroon: Nope! Two only! Bobby Barnaby: Haha. I think for the most impact, something for the world would be… I would choose instant acceptance of everybody. Being okay with other lifestyles, other cultures – I feel like that would wipe out xenophobia, homophobia, racism, misogyny…  KiKi Maroon: Yeah, that’s right. You’re finding a core thing to fix. Bobby Barnaby: I’m finding the core thing. Yeah. Automatic acceptance of everybody on the planet, that would make me feel a lot safer as a queer human in the world. And I think something for me – if everyone immediately, at the snap of a finger, knew it was okay to play.  KiKi Maroon: Ahhh! Bobby Barnaby: I have this really goofy spirit that I always suppressed because I thought it was not okay. And I went to Clown School to learn how to fail because I was afraid to fail. Growing up a dancer, I was really afraid to fail. I learned the beauty of being goofy and the origin of play. I feel like “clown” is not something that we do; I feel like “clown” is something that we are. I feel like in every human being is the spirit of “clown,” which is the mischievous want to play. Through play, we connect with other human beings. And if it was okay to play, we wouldn’t have those rigid social constructs. It would be okay to trip on the street and laugh about it instead of saying, “What’s that crack in the sidewalk?”  KiKi Maroon: Hahaha! Bobby Barnaby: I’ve really been able to embrace my goofiness and my inner child and I think that that’s a gift that everybody deserves – the freedom of that. KiKi Maroon: I love that answer so much! I am so happy that I got to speak to another clown! Bobby Barnaby: Yeah!! KiKi Maroon: This has been wonderful. I hope we can do this again soon. Bobby Barnaby: I hope so. Thank you so much for having me. KiKi Maroon: Thank you.  [Theme song: “Last Call” provided by The Last Domino] KiKi Maroon: That was Bobby Barnaby. Whoa, there’s a lot to unpack here. Haha. He blew my mind when he said that some psychologists say that your brain stops developing at the age you start using and then picks back up when you quit. I’ve tried so hard to explain that feeling to people, but I didn’t have the words! So, I just kept saying things like, “I don’t know. I’m in my second puberty. Reality’s rushing in. I’m getting 15 years of life lessons in one year! Do I have super powers, or am I going crazy?” Haha! What he said made a lot more sense! Even with this podcast, I went back and I listened to last year’s episodes to make sure that all of these new shows coming out had a fluid timeline, and it’s weird. It feels like I’m listening to a different person. I have grown so much this year. I’m happy, I’m confident, I have self-worth. It’s crazy! Haha. Speaking to these people has shown me that I’m not an anomaly. This seems to be the path that most people take.  So, Bobby telling me that I needed to do this the right way and get a sponsor – it hit me really hard. I know that; I’ve been told that like, I don’t know, a thousand times. But I guess I was just finally ready to hear it. I just… I have these trust issues! Haha. And the idea of connecting so deeply with a stranger, just giving them all my hopes and fears… ugh, no, no, no! I’d rather be normal and just say them on a microphone for every stranger in the world to hear! Haha. Yeah, I know… So, when Bobby said that his sponsor lives in LA and they Skype once a week, that was a light bulb moment for me. Back in Episode Seven, I told you about a comedian named Kurtis Matthews. I had seen him do stand-up about quitting drinking and being sober for 35 years. He said things onstage that I thought only I felt. He was a complete stranger, but hearing him be honest about all the struggles that he went through and how he overcame everything, it just made me feel so connected to him. So after my talk with Bobby Barnaby, I reached out to Kurtis on Facebook and said, “Hey, I know this sounds crazy and you don’t know me, but I found out that people can be sponsors over Skype and I wanted to ask if you’d be my sponsor.” Haha. In true comic fashion, he responded with, “Aww, that’s sweet! Fuck no!” It was funny, not mean! I promise. He believes that you should have a sponsor who identifies as the same sex as you, so that way, you can have someone who can relate and guide you on stuff like dating or connecting with partners or PMS and all of those things. It makes a lot of sense, but I was still kind of bitter like, “Well, fuck me then! I lower my walls. Be vulnerable. Reach out to someone and get rejected!” Sounds really familiar. Haha. But no, he is right. And it still worked out because while he’s not my sponsor, he is now my “sober buddy”. We talk about a lot of stuff and he’s even on an episode coming up, which is super exciting to me (Episode 14)! So honestly, no, I still don’t have a sponsor – but I am actively in the process of being able to have one at some point. Haha! So that was my first episode back! If you enjoyed it, please leave a review of the podcast. Having lots of ratings helps get the show into search engines and helps other people find it. And if you really like the show, please join my Patreon at Patreon.com/KiKiMaroon – $1 a month, $5 a month, $10 a month. You choose the amount and that money helps with web hosting, storage, equipment, and all the other costs involved with keeping Clown, Interrupted alive, along with my live productions and virtual stuff. You can find that link in the show notes or on my website. And as always, the theme song “Last Call” was graciously provided by The Last Domino. I linked the song in the show notes and on the website as well, so check it out.  And hey, have a great day! It is so good to be back. I will see you next week.  [Theme song: “Last Call” provided by The Last Domino]

It’s Season 2 of Clown, Interrupted with KiKi Maroon. That’s me!  If you missed Season 1, here’s the recap: I was an alcoholic stripping clown, lost everything, found sobriety, but still didn’t understand simple concepts like feelings or friendship. So I started this podcast to ask artists, comedians, musicians, and other party people- who don’t drink-, “Hey, what’s your deal? How do you do this?” And they’ve helped me. Like, a lot. The press release says “this is a recovery podcast featuring in-debt interviews with sober artists”. But really, I’m just trying to make friends and understand what’s going on in my brain. After a 15 year blackout, I’m just trying to learn how to be a person Hi, my name’s KiKi Maroon. And I’m a Clown, Interrupted. If you like the podcast, please consider signing up to my Patreon. Your donation helps with the operating cost and is the easiest way to say, “thanks for making this!” The Clown, Interrupted theme song is graciously provided by The Last Domino. You can listen to or purchase the full song HERE.

I went to a show called The Addicts Comedy Tour, put on by a comedian named Kurtis Matthews. He tours all over, doing standup about being an addict. You don’t have to be sober to go, it’s hilarious no matter what. I went to the show because Andy Huggins (Episode 1) was opening, and yet again, Andy simply existing changed my outlook on life.  I was a deeply troubled child. I struggled with depression and suicidal tendencies from childhood until about 22 (that’s how stripping clowns are made). At 22, I left an abusive boyfriend and decided to give up everything I owned to live out of my car. It was a desperate attempt to find freedom and crawl out of the hole that had been my lifelong mental state. I don’t know if it still exists, but StumbleUpon was a website where you selected categories and it would play random videos based on your tastes (think early Youtube autoplay). I vividly remember the night I was boxing up everything in my apartment to give to Goodwill. I was alone, high as fuck, with “StumbleUpon” playing random comedy videos in the background. I was packing up my life, hoping that getting rid of the things would get rid of the memories. I just wanted to learn how to be happy. The next random video started- the “It’s just a ride” monologue by Bill Hicks. I stopped what I was doing, sat on the edge of my bed, and just took it in. I didn’t know who Bill Hicks was, or that this clip was even part of a standup special. All I knew was that this man was talking to me (I’m sure the pot had something to do with it). Bill saying, “life is just a ride..and we can change it anytime we want. It’s only a choice” was exactly what I needed to hear at that time. I watched it 10 times in a row, maybe more, and a thousand times since. It’s helped me make a lot of important choices. Most importantly, the choice I made that first night to never let my depression win. Fast forward to The Addicts Comedy Tour a few weeks ago. I’m sitting in the green room with Andy Huggins, Kurtis Matthews, and a few other comics whose names I don’t remember (sorry!). Somebody asked Andy “Hey, how long was Hicks sober before he died?” Andy answered and they all started reminiscing, “I remember when he first asked me about wanting to quit…” “Remember how crazy he was…”, “Bill fit in a lifetime’s worth of drinking in a few years…”, “Remember him first going on sober?”, etc. Years ago, I was terrified that quitting would derail me. It would make me someone different and fuck up everything I had worked for. I told myself, “Drinking is how people socialize. Drinking makes me happy. I have to drink to connect with people.” Now here I was, in a room full of sober people. Not just any people, but people directly linked to someone who died when I was NINE,  but who somehow still had a huge effect on my life by helping me overcome a lifetime of depression. I made real connections that night, and I was only in that room because of the choice I had so feared. It was surreal and affirming: I am on the right path.  Part of that path is that comedian Kurtis Matthews. I have not had him on the podcast yet, but I am going to. It’s my new goal. However, I was in NYC last week and Kurtis put me in touch with another comic he works with, Ross Bennett. Ross Bennett was a cadet at West-point Academy when he quit to become a stand up. He moved to Los Angels in the 80’s, quit drinking in ’87, and has done so much since! He taught me a lot. This episode is full of quotes! We met at a recording studio in New York, so you can hear lots of activity in the background, but I think it just adds to the New York feel. Plus, I can’t afford a studio… I hope you enjoy it. Here is my conversation with Ross Bennett.  •RossBennett.com•…Not If you Were the Last Man on Earth! – Ross Bennett comedy album•Bill Hicks “Just a Ride”•The Road Less Traveled •John Rabon’s podcast•“It Gets Better” blog post If you like the podcast, please consider signing up to my Patreon. Your donation helps with the operating cost and is the easiest way to say, “thanks for making this!” The Clown, Interrupted theme song is graciously provided by The Last Domino. You can listen to or purchase the full song HERE. Full Transcript KiKi Maroon: Hi, welcome back! So much to unpack this episode. A while ago, I went to a show called The Addicts Comedy Tour, that a comedian named Kurtis Matthews puts it on. It’s a stand-up show about being an addict. You don’t have to be sober to go, it’s hilarious, no matter what. And it’s a comedy club tour, so plenty of people were drinking, because funny is funny.  Anyway, I went to the show because Andy Huggins from Episode 1 (legendary Houston comic) was opening, and yet again, Andy simply existing, changed my outlook on life. Here’s the thing: I lived in a superdeep depression from birth – not an exaggeration – until I was about 22. I was a deeply troubled child/person, because that’s how stripping clowns are made! Anyway, around 22, I left an abusive boyfriend, gave up everything I owned, and decided to turn my life around and crawl out of the hole that had been my static mental state. Yes, I know that sounds similar to the accident story, but this was 10 years before. I’ve got a cycle, okay? Haha. I’ve got a “reach realizations, overcome things, figure things out, realize I didn’t know anything” cycle. So, one day around 22, I was boxing up all of my stuff to take to the Goodwill, because giving away everything you own and living out of your car is what crazy people do when they think they figured it out. I don’t know if StumbleUpon still exists, but it was this website where you choose your categories, comedy, makeup, architecture, whatever, and it would play random videos based on your tastes. You gave it a thumbs up or a thumbs down and it would kind of curate and show you more random videos. It was just random videos from all over the world. So there I was, alone, probably 3:00 AM, high as fuck, random StumbleUpon videos playing on my computer while I packed up my life, trying to figure out how to be happy. (Note: In 2018, StumbleUpon was replaced by Mix.com.) And then this video started: it was the monologue, the last few minutes of Bill Hicks’ “Revelations.” If you haven’t seen it, please go watch it! Those of you who know what I’m talking about, it’s the “It’s Just a Ride” speech. I didn’t know who Bill Hicks was. I didn’t know this video was part of a stand-up special. When you watch it out of context, it ain’t funny. But I was so lost at the time and I felt like this man was talking to me. I’m sure the pot had a lot to do with it, haha. But Hicks saying, “Life is just a ride. We can change it anytime we want. It’s only a choice.” That is exactly what I needed to hear at that time. I probably watched it 10 times in a row. It blew my mind and it helped me make a lot of important choices after that. Obviously, I still fucked up a lot, because I still had another 10 years of chaos. But it was my first revelation – hahaha because his special is called “Revelations.” Anyways, fast forward, whatever that is, 10? 13? years later to The Addicts Comedy Tour a few weeks ago. I’m sitting in the green room with Andy Huggins and Kurtis Matthews and a few other comics who, I apologize, I do not remember their names. And somebody asked, just super casually, you know, “So how long was Hicks sober before he died?” Andy answers and people start talking about, “Oh, I remember when he first asked me about wanting to quit.” “Remember how crazy he was?” “He fit in a lifetime’s worth of drinks in just a few years,” “I remember him first going sober,” etc.  I had been terrified that quitting drinking was going to derail me, make me someone different, fuck up everything that I had worked for, just… everything, all those fears that you have.  And here I was a few years later, in a room with a direct connection to someone who died when I was 9 years-old, but still had a direct and substantial effect on my life. He helped change the course of a lifetime of depression. To reevaluate how I looked at life and our psyche and everything else. And I was only in that room because of the choice that I had so feared. It was surreal, but really affirming, like, “Okay, I’m on the right path. I’m on the right path.”  Part of that path is a comedian, Kurtis Matthews. I have not sat down with him for the podcast yet, but I am going to, it is one of my goals now! He was so funny and the things he said on stage blew my mind. (See Episode 14!) But I was in New York last week and Kurtis put me in touch with another comic that he works with, who also knows Andy. This comic’s name is Ross Bennett. Ross Bennett was a cadet at West Point Academy when he quit to become a stand-up. He moved to Los Angeles in the Eighties, which I don’t know if you guys know this, but that was a crazy, party, druggie comedy time. Haha. He quit drinking in ‘87 and is so interesting. He taught me a lot.  I swear, this episode is just full of quotes and books to read. I still haven’t read The Road Less Traveled, which he said I needed to. It’s on my list now. I promise. Anyway, we met at a recording studio in New York, so you can hear lots of activity in the background, even an occasional opera singer and gongs and stuff. It just has that New York feel. Hustle bustle, you know? Also, I can’t afford my own studio. So I hope you enjoy it. Here’s my conversation with Ross Bennett. [Theme song: “Last Call” provided by The Last Domino] Ross Bennett: I went out to Los Angeles in January of ‘79. It will be 40 years this January.  KiKi Maroon: Oh, wow. Ross Bennett: And I lived there until the summer of ‘84, and what I’ve said is- I went to Los Angeles to become a star, but sometimes what you go someplace for and what you get are two different things.  KiKi Maroon: Absolutely. Ross Bennett: So I went there to become a big star, but what I ended up getting is recovery.  KiKi Maroon: From Los Angeles? Ross Bennett: Yeah. It was probably the perfect place for me at the perfect time. Because, like you, I was involved in this thing from a party standpoint, you know what I mean? I had been in the army; I had been a cadet at West Point.  KiKi Maroon: Oh wow. Ross Bennett: And I got the comedy bug when I was about 20 years-old or so. I ended up leaving the Academy to become a comedian. The joke I have in my act is, “I left West Point to become a comedian. Probably the greatest service I will have ever done for my country.”  KiKi Maroon: Hahaha! Ross Bennett: And one of the things that attracted me to stand-up was that it was in bars and you could drink and you could party. And as long as you could do your job, it was not a detriment.  KiKi Maroon: Oh absolutely.  Ross Bennett: I got into the whole thing and, we’re talking ‘78, ‘79. It’s like the whole world was just fueled by this. You had Saturday Night Live, you had John Belushi, you had all these people whose personas seemed to revolve around drugs and alcohol,  and it was very attractive.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah.  Ross Bennett: So I get out to LA and I get involved in the Comedy Store and The Improv. What I realize now is that you gravitate towards those people who do what you do. There were people who didn’t drink or use, I just didn’t gravitate towards those people. I gravitated towards the people who… it’s almost like a secret code or whatever. It’s like, you just all of a sudden find out who gets high and then, “Boom!” You go off with them and they become your friends. And you get to know the bartenders, so you’re doing your shots and everything is covered and everything is cool. Andy Huggins was part of the crew at the Comedy Store; he was a Comedy Store comedian. He and I met. He was just a nice guy. I never knew him, I never partied with him. I never knew him as a drinker, as a non-drinker, as a person. I just knew Andy because he had an act, his whole thing was being from Texas and everything. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Haha. I was actually just talking to a friend of mine about that. She said something about some guy like, “Oh, he does coke?” And I said, “Everybody does coke!” And it’s kind of like, “Oh no, everybody I knew did.” But that’s when you create these bubbles; what you do is okay, because everyone around you is doing that. Ross Bennett: Right. What’s really weird is when you let somebody, at some point – either in recovery or before recovery – if you reveal to someone what your actual lifestyle is and it’s not theirs, you see their reaction to it.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah.  Ross Bennett: It’s pretty eye-opening, you know? It’s like, “Wow.” You can tell that they’re disturbed. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. I actually asked one of my best friends – I was in a relationship pre-recovery, and I remember asking him after we were drinking and doing blow and everything, I asked, “Do you tell your wife that you do coke?” And he said, “Yeah, absolutely.” And I was like, “Oh.” And he goes, “Why?” And I said, “I don’t tell my boyfriend. I feel like he’s going to judge.” And he said, “No! Don’t! People that don’t do it see it like heroin. They see it as terrible… but we know it’s cool.” And I was like, “Oh, okay!” It was just rationalized it away as, “He wouldn’t get it. It’s not that big of a deal.” Ross Bennett: I went out with a girl. This was after I had been sober for a while – I went out with this girl. She met me at a club and she was kind of, you know, she was just fun. One of those bubbly, kind of eccentric people. I said, “Let’s go out.” We went out and I went to pick her up and she was storming. You know, she’s crazy, going around her apartment with a beer, getting ready, drinking her beer, getting ready, drinking her beer, and then wanting to take a beer in the car.  KiKi Maroon: Roadie! Haha. Ross Bennett: And I was sober at that point for, I don’t know, three, four or five years, something like that. She goes, “Do you want me to give you one?” “I don’t drink.” She was like, “You don’t drink?!” And it was like, all of a sudden, I interrupted her vision of what she thought life was.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Ross Bennett: And the truth is, we ended up going out for a long time.  KiKi Maroon: Really? Ross Bennett: And she struggled with it. It forced her to ask herself who she was and everything. It ended up being very sad. These days, it’s like, “Yeah, it means I can’t go out with you.”  KiKi Maroon: Really? Ross Bennett: Not just that if you drink, but if you’re obviously a party person. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Ross Bennett: I’m just not going to do that. You know, why would I do that to myself?  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Ross Bennett: So that’s where I am right now, but at that point, you know, she was just a fun girl. I liked her so much. She was a sweetheart. KiKi Maroon: You said that was five or so years into your recovery? Ross Bennett: My story is that I started going to meetings in ‘82. I got into recovery in ‘82 in Los Angeles and I had four slips over the course of the first five years. I had my last drink in ‘87. So I’ve been clean and sober since 1987, about 31 years.  KiKi Maroon: Congratulations, that’s amazing! Ross Bennett: And so this girl, it was probably around ‘93, ‘94, ‘95, something like that. KiKi Maroon: Okay. So you were like in it?  Ross Bennett: Oh yeah.  KiKi Maroon: Okay.  Ross Bennett: I was trying to think before I was coming over here, you know, because the whole anonymity thing is important to me. From what I’ve read and everything, the anonymity protects me and it protects the group. It protects me from setting myself up on a pedestal and thinking that I’m special or different or whatever, because I want to be a worker amongst workers. It also helps the groups because you don’t want somebody setting themself up as being the self-proclaimed “face” of some organization. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Ross Bennett: And then when their clay feet are revealed (weakness or hidden flaw in the character of a greatly admired or respected person), you don’t want everyone to have something you say, to then have someone go, “Wow, so that thing doesn’t work. Look at that guy.”So I’m not speaking as a member of any group. But the “12 Steps of Recovery” are the basis of my life. At some point I had to say to myself, “What do you believe in? What are your values? What code do you live by?” And I accept those things to be pretty much right on.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah.  Ross Bennett: And so a lot of what I do and I think and everything these days, it just all reflects back around that – that’s my language. You need a language of your philosophy, and that is the language of my philosophy. KiKi Maroon: I’ve tried talking about this to people who are not in recovery, just friends of mine, and explained it like, “I really feel like it’s just ways to remind myself not to be selfish. To be a good person,” you know? It’s not necessarily about the drinking. It’s about what caused the drinking and going back to that instead. Ross Bennett: I do find that we tend to be very self-centered, you know, and grandiose.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah.  Ross Bennett: I think when I heard it once, “Egomaniac with an inferiority complex.” KiKi Maroon: Hahaha! Oh god! Ross Bennett: And when I heard that…  KiKi Maroon: It hurts! Haha. Ross Bennett: It made so much sense. You know, there’s wit involved. I’m a comedian, so one of the wonderful things starting around Los Angeles is there were all these people who were very witty – actors and actresses and writers and creative people. And so comments like that just drew me in.  KiKi Maroon: It hits so hard. Ross Bennett: I had heard that basically, everything you learn in your first 30 days, you spend the rest of your life digesting. KiKi Maroon: You keep giving me all these quotes! I’m going to have to really process all of this. Haha. Ross Bennett: It’s the truth, you know? I’m still going back and I’m still picking up and remembering those things. KiKi Maroon: Well, okay. Let’s go back really quick. So you went to LA. Were you a partier before that? Ross Bennett: Well, yeah. I mean, the thing is I really wasn’t a partier in high school. When I had a drink, I would get drunk.  KiKi Maroon: Okay.  Ross Bennett: The few times I drank, I would get drunk. I would say pretty much every time I drank, I got drunk.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah.  Ross Bennett: And then at some point, marijuana came into my life and I sort of became a pothead. George Carlin had this thing I heard him say years ago, “When I drank, I threw up on my shoes. When I drank and I got high, I threw up on my shoes. When I smoked pot, I got high and I didn’t throw up on my shoes. I’m going to smoke pot!”  KiKi Maroon: Hahaha! Ross Bennett: That’s what he said. So I can understand that, you know? When I discovered pot, I found that I got to carry a load. It was immediate and it was noticeable, but it didn’t have as much of a negative effect. Of course, later on…   KiKi Maroon: Yeah, I always claimed I’d never had hangovers, but I did. They just weren’t as bad. It was more like a groggy, sleepy… I just wasn’t vomiting. Ross Bennett: I also, as a comic, I didn’t have to wake up. So I slept through most of my hangovers.  KiKi Maroon: Haha. Ross Bennett: And I got to LA and I met this woman, this sweet little lady. And literally the first week I was in town, I auditioned at The Improv. Budd (Friedman, founder of The Improv and emcee) passed me, put his arm around me and all that good stuff, and gave me spots. When I turned around, this girl was looking up at me with this face, like I’d never seen before, just this beaming face. And I moved in with her the next day.  KiKi Maroon: Oh my God! Haha. Ross Bennett: And then we were together until she died.  KiKi Maroon: Oh, wow. Ross Bennett: We ended up getting married at the Comedy Store on April 1, 1982.  KiKi Maroon: Was she a comedian also? Ross Bennett: She worked in the advertising industry. She was a very funny lady. She tried to do comedy a couple of times and she took some improv classes. She was a sweetheart and her name was Jan Goder. We had a son and he’s now 33.  KiKi Maroon: Aww. Ross Bennett: But we met and basically we were partners in crime, you know? We partied together all the time and we lived in our own little bubble, the truth be told.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah.  Ross Bennett: Lived in our own little bubble and she was a sweetheart. We got married in ‘82 and basically, I bottomed out in ‘82. And the thing about this recovery thing is- you need a bottom. I have to always remember, “I can’t make someone hit a bottom.”  KiKi Maroon: Yeah.  Ross Bennett: You know, I’m not an “interventionist,” my job is not to… KiKi Maroon: Do you think that has ever worked, by the way? I’ve seen them on TV, but as somebody who went through a lot of shit and was still like, “No!” I just didn’t get it until, randomly,I got it. Every time I see an intervention, I just feel like that’s not going to work if they don’t want it. If they’re not asking for it themselves, I just don’t think it’s sustainable. Ross Bennett: You know, they talk about how the ego has to be crushed. And the thing is, it doesn’t stay crushed. The miracle is, I look at it like this: when you hit a bottom, there’s a window of opportunity. And the question is- when you’re at your bottom – is a message of recovery offered to you? KiKi Maroon: Okay.  Ross Bennett: And so I happened to go to a place that offered the message of recovery when I was at an absolute bottom. I knew that my way wasn’t working and I was really hopeless and helpless. And still five years later, I had my last drink. But I’m very grateful that I was able to be at a place, when I was at my lowest, that told me that I had a problem and offered me a solution. KiKi Maroon: So was your bottom before or after you got married? Ross Bennett: It was after. Belushi had died in the March of ‘82, and things started to make sense. There were these things that were going on, you know? There was this guy that everybody was saying was the most talented guy in the world. And he would always be this tragic figure who died so young, who had so much talent. And somewhere in the back of my mind, it was like, “If I OD’ed or I died, they’d go, ‘Oh yeah, he was that guy. He was trying to make it, but he was messed up all the time.’”  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Ross Bennett: You know, there was that thing in the back of my mind that… KiKi Maroon: You saw through the glamoursomehow! Haha. I’m kind of jealous of your ability to do that. Ross Bennett: I thought that the substance abuse was somehow part of the creative process. KiKi Maroon: Oh, yeah! I think that’s very common to think. Ross Bennett: I now believe that my creative process happens in spite of the substance abuse. That’s my belief, you know, because otherwise, you look at someone like Jerry Seinfeld, Jay Leno – these are guys who don’t do any of that kind of stuff. And they create a plethora of material, of quality material. So one is not contingent on the other in terms of that. And it took me a while to overcome that. We paint ourselves into a corner; I painted myself into a corner in terms of what I thought I had to be. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. I think that’s what a lot of the entertainers, artists, everybody, a lot of people do. They think it makes you more interesting. There’s this idea of, “I’m special, I’m different.” Ross Bennett: It also erases the fear. I would say, for me, that was the big thing. I was fearless when I would do a couple of shots before I went up onstage. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Oh, yeah. I didn’t go onstage sober. Ever. Ross Bennett: Absolutely fearless. And even today, I need to get a few laughs to really start to break down my fear. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. But you have to do it yourself now. Ross Bennett: If you watch my Letterman set, I’m up there and I’m waiting for the first couple of laughs. And then as they come, I get more and more confident, you know? I’ve always been very insecure and I still am, but after I get a couple of laughs, it’s like, “Okay!” KiKi Maroon: “You got this!” Ross Bennett: But I’ll tell you, if I don’t get those first couple of laughs, it becomes work. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Ross Bennett: You know? And now I have to start closing down. I’ve got to put the shields up, close down, get focused, you know? I had a show the other week and they were very tough. I had to really focus on my act. I spent years doing colleges and I worked with a guy, Joey Edmonds. He has the Joey Edmonds’s Booking Agency and he always said, “To do colleges, you need an hour, clean.” One that you basically can do with no response. KiKi Maroon: Wait, what? Because they’re not going to respond?  Ross Bennett: What if they don’t? You know, so many comics, you’re up onstage and things aren’t going right, so you start working the crowd.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Ross Bennett: You start asking questions to the crowd, okay? Well, what if you’re doing a noontime show in a cafeteria? KiKi Maroon: An hour with no response sounds terrifying to me. Ross Bennett: You have to have an hour that you can do without response. It doesn’t mean there’s not response, but it doesn’t require anything coming back from the audience. It doesn’t require them to say anything. KiKi Maroon: Okay. I thought you meant like no laughter at all for an hour straight! Haha. Ross Bennett: But what if there is no laughter for an hour? What if you go up and there was like 10 people? So many times, I mean, I used to work at the Laugh Stop in Newport Beach – Saturday night, three shows. 8:00 show, 280 people, killing! 10:00 show, 280 people, killing! 12:00 show, 8 people. These were the ones who wanted to get into the 10:00 show, but it was sold out and they just spent two hours sitting in the bar, hearing the greatest laughter in the world. And now, they’re one of eight people in a room. KiKi Maroon: Ugh… Ross Bennett: They’re expecting a show and they are pissed off. They’re not getting the same show because there’s not two hundred other people.  KiKi Maroon: The energy. Ross Bennett: And yet they require me to do the show. And when you’re a young comic, you have to do what you’re told.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah.  Ross Bennett: And you can’t spend your time onstage complaining about the lack of audience, about the lack of laughter. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. That drives me crazy when people do that, like, “Oh, I guess everybody else is at the more fun show.” “Well, fuck me for being here!” Haha.  Ross Bennett: I have to treat them as if this is the most important night of their life. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Actually Andy is the one that drilled that in my head, because he gets so angry at comics when they go up and just start berating the crowd, “This is great stuff guys!” Like, obviously it’s not; and it’s not on them. It’s not their job right now – it’s your job. Ross Bennett: So when he said, “You have to have an hour you can do without any response,” it means your act couldn’t be contingent upon their response, okay?  KiKi Maroon: Okay. Ross Bennett: So that made it so that I acquired that skill a long time ago. And I have an act, you know, comics need an act. I was out doing it in Pennsylvania a couple of weeks ago on a Tuesday night. I wasn’t getting the response, and I had to just really get focused on my act, and I eventually got them! I eventually got them, but it was, it was all my skills. I felt like the Godfather revealing Sonny’s body to the funeral guy, saying, “I want you to use all your skills and your powers. I don’t want his mother to see him like this.” I had to use all my skills and my powers in order to get this audience to respond! And I had to do 45 minutes. I’m starting to think that it might’ve been one of those situations where they didn’t know there was going to be a comic, but I don’t know. I’m not certain because I didn’t ask the guy. I should have asked, but I didn’t. Haha. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Haha  Ross Bennett: But the check cleared!  KiKi Maroon: Well that’s all that matters! But I’ve had to ask people to introduce me as “your comedian” or as “a stand-up.” Because when it’s shows… I actually did a fashion show with a friend of mine. They didn’t know there was going to be stand-up afterwards. It was 30 minutes of girls in dresses, walking… and then we just walked up there and started telling jokes. And I’m like, “How…?”  Ross Bennett: They have got to know there is going to be a show!  KiKi Maroon: You have to tell them there’s going to be comedy here! It was so awkward.  Ross Bennett: They got to know there’s going to be a show. KiKi Maroon: I don’t know if this is actually true but I’d like to think it’s making me better. For the longest time, I told myself that I was better drunk, because I was not afraid. I was terrified to start going onstage sober. It took me a long time; I would get weird because “they’re looking at me!” – haha – but now I know that they’re looking at me. I remember, it was maybe a year or two years ago, I bombed so bad after a festival and it was the first time I really wanted to drink. When I quit, I was good; I was done. I didn’t want anymore. But that night, I wanted a shot so much because it hurt so bad to walk off that stage. A not-so-supportive friend of mine even asked, “Well, do you want me to get you one?” And I was like, “No. I have to feel my feelings. The only way I’m going to get better is to sit in how much this hurts right now.” Ross Bennett: It’s really challenging, particularly, you know, when you’re opening up, when you’re revealing who you are. You know, you’re pulling the walls down and you’re raw there. I’m a big fan of Seinfeld. I worked with him a couple of times over the years, early on.  KiKi Maroon: Oh, that’s amazing!  Ross Bennett: I don’t know him; we’ve met a few times. But I’m a big fan of his and I admire him an awful lot. And that movie Comedian (2002) he did about 15 years ago or so, there’s a point in it where he’s working on this new act. He’s putting an act together – that’s the whole point of the movie. He’s onstage and he’s not getting laughs. He’s standing by a piano and looking at his notes. He’s not getting a laugh, shaking his head. He’s just kind of frustrated. And me, I would be in so much shame over not getting the laughs, you know? Over it! He was simply irritated that he couldn’t figure out how to make the joke work. And I remember when he first got out to LA, he was very good. I was out there and these New York guys were coming out. I wasn’t a New York guy. These guys like George Wallace and Larry Miller and Jerry Seinfeld and Richard Belzer and these New York people were coming out. They had a polish and they had an air about them; an air of confidence, really strong material. And in this last Netflix called Seinfeld Before Seinfeld (2017), he talked about being at the Comedy Store and he says, “A lot of them had this broken wing thing. These damaged people.”  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Haha. Ross Bennett: And he goes, “I was never that.” He always felt good about himself. He never doubted himself. So I mean, someone like him, he wasn’t being driven by some of the same demons and things that drove me.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Ross Bennett: And I really admire that about him. His whole thing was about creating material, creating an act. And you asked me, when we were coming up here in the elevator to where we’re sitting – we’re actually sitting in the lobby of a studio area in New York City where I’m going to be teaching a class. I teach a stand-up class. My one plug is I teach for the Manhattan Comedy School!  KiKi Maroon: Oh yeah! I’ll put links and everything in the show notes.  Ross Bennett: Manhattan Comedy School here in New York City. The class I’m teaching is Comedy Writing Boot Camp, which is basically creating material through performance. My whole premise is that we write jokes, but we create material.  KiKi Maroon: I want to take this! Ross Bennett: The thing is that you need an act, and when you have an act that helps give you some of the structure and armor so that when you go up, you have a purpose up there; you have something to do. When I was drinking, my act was not what was giving me my strength. I had an act, but a lot of it was hack. I just always had the ability to get laughs. It’s almost a detriment! KiKi Maroon: Yeah. It gave you just enough to keep going down the wrong path. Ross Bennett: I’ve always had the ability to get by and to get response and to get laughter. What I was saying may have been interesting, it may have been ordinary, might’ve been vulgar, whatever it was. But I always had all sorts of techniques. A lot of English I could throw on this stuff, you know? But to actually just be able to have the joke be strong enough… KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Do you think… I heard something a while ago, it was actually a motivational speaker woman, an entrepreneur lady. And she said, “You want me to be extraordinary, because it gets you off the hook.” And the idea was that everybody can go out and do the work. To get the life, to dig themselves out of these holes. But you want to make me special, so that you’re okay not achieving these things.  Ross Bennett: Wow. KiKi Maroon: And it hit so hard. And now what you’re saying about Seinfeld and Leno and these people who we, across the board can say, are very successful people you can respect. And yet it’s so easy for artists, comedians, performers to believe, “Oh no, we have to be damaged to be good artists.” Haha. But the proof is in front of us that that’s not true! Ross Bennett: Ultimately, you have to be willing and able to do the work.  KiKi Maroon: I think it’s easier to feel like “I’m naturally damaged and because of that, I’m special. And that means I’m going to be good, period.”  Ross Bennett: You have to be willing to do the work. Like I said, it’s that corner we paint ourselves into, that “I’m somehow special.” KiKi Maroon: Haha. So what got you out of that corner then? You said you had just gotten married. I would think that this would have been the best – to a lot of people – the best time of their life, not the rock bottom? Ross Bennett: I got married. And I had one of those nights where I was up all night and my wife was going to work in the morning. She basically just said, “I can’t. I didn’t marry for this.” And I had called to tried to get help a few times over the previous six months.  KiKi Maroon: Called friends? Called hotlines?  Ross Bennett: Various hotlines. I would wake up in the morning and I’d be sober, because I would wake up in the afternoon. I’d find a phone number and it was like, “I was so drunk, look who I called last night,” that kind of thing. And this was after a night that I’d been up all night. I went to a meeting. I remember they went around the meeting, everybody would just identify themselves. “I’m Bobby, I’m an alcoholic.” “I’m Trisha, I’m an alcoholic-addict.” “I’m Alice, I’m an alcoholic-addict.” And it was all of a sudden, a room full of 60, 70, 80 people, all one, after another, after another – identifying. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Ross Bennett: And I just started to weep. I didn’t know that’s what I was. I didn’t know that there was anything. I can understand how people kill themselves.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Ross Bennett: And it sort of gave me an identity in this recovery idea. And I latched on to it and I got it very early on. I was very fortunate. I think a lot of people would wrestle with, “Can I still smoke pot?” And you know, that whole thing. And I never had that. The first guy I talked to said it was “anything that affects you from the neck up.” KiKi Maroon: Oh, wow. Haha. Ross Bennett: So if it’s a pill, if it’s a joint, it’s a drink, whatever it happens to be – all of that is how I define my substance abuse. It’s made it very easy. And I know people have struggled with that. Thinking they can do this, but not that, blah-blah. KiKi Maroon: Yeah.  Actually watching Kurtis Matthews was what made me realize… When I quit drinking, I was very proud of myself. I got super into my work. It was the best my shows had ever been. I started doing them on larger scales and I felt so, so, so good. And then I started crashing really hard and I didn’t fully understand what was going on. It took me a while to realize, “Oh, I’m just a workaholic now! I’m still running away from the things. I still don’t want to have to sit and think and feel and process my reality.” And I’m still grateful. It was better than blacking out every day! But it was very easy to just replace, replace, replace. And I didn’t know that was normal. Again, I thought I was special for having this problem. Ross Bennett: I heard a guy speak once, quite a famous guy, sort of a guru kind of a guy. And he talked about coming in and throwing in the towel. And he used the towel as a metaphor for all of your problems, all of your stuff. And after a couple of days, you feel better and so you go out to the garbage, you pick up your towel and you get it back. And the rest of your life is taking little pieces of it and tearing it off. “I’ll give you this, but I will keep this.” KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Ross Bennett: You know, because we all… I have found that… I’ll speak just for myself; there are still things I hang on to. I’m a human being, so I can feel safe, I can feel protected, I can feel contained, or whatever. I’m in a much better place than I was 30-some-years ago, but that’s why I’m sort of in it – for the journey. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. I think even knowing that it’s a journey is you being just… more grown-up, I guess? Just in a healthier place versus this, like, “Okay, am I fixed yet? Am I fixed yet?” Ross Bennett: Well, that’s why that first year is so… anniversary time is always a big time, because it makes you think you should be “graduating”. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. “Why aren’t I done?” Ross Bennett: You have to be more vigilant at anniversary time. The last time I had a slip, I didn’t celebrate an anniversary for five or six years, because I didn’t want to set myself up to that feeling that I’m somehow “fixed”. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. That makes sense. Ross Bennett: Then for myself – I’m not saying it’s for everybody, but for me – I had some serious mental illness issues that really didn’t come to the forefront until years into recovery. There were things that were underneath everything that had to be attended to at some point.  KiKi Maroon: Okay.  Ross Bennett: Look, I got married in ‘82, my son was born in ‘85, and my wife passed away in ‘86. KiKi Maroon: Oh, wow.  Ross Bennett: And then, I was sort of in the wasteland. And while I was in the wasteland, I sought mental health professionals. And it made a big difference for me.  KiKi Maroon: Good! Ross Bennett: Because there were pieces of myself that I didn’t understand. The first time I took a year, I celebrated a year in ‘83 or ‘84, something like that. What I remember is being at this meeting, but… you know what it’s like when you put your head in a bucket and you hear that roaring sound? KiKi Maroon: I do. Yes. I’ve thrown up in a bunch of buckets, actually. Haha. Ross Bennett: I’m talking about how you hear that roaring sound, like listening to a seashell – that’s what it felt like. I didn’t feel like I was standing there in front of these people, like I’m talking to you right now. I felt like I was in a cave, like I was in a bucket. All I heard was this roaring sound. And it was mental illness that I didn’t know… you know, I come from a world where no one talked about anything like that. It was just a real small town in Western New York State. Nobody has mental illness problems, you know, you suck it up and you do the right thing and you go in the Army. You do this, you do that. There’s no problems…  KiKi Maroon: Yeah, “we don’t talk about that”.  Ross Bennett: Right. You don’t have those kinds of problems. And if you do have those problems, it’s because you’re weak. But eventually, I got around people who helped me. KiKi Maroon: Good. I’m glad. My grandma on my mom’s side was a bipolar schizophrenic and now that I’m going into my recovery and going to therapy and processing a lot of stuff, it’s actually caused more questioning. Because when stuff is happening, I’m like, “Oh, am I healthily processing this? Or am I going down a road of justifying things?” I question all of my thoughts because, honestly, I’m afraid. Like what if I’m… how crazy am I and I don’t know I’m crazy? Ross Bennett: You’re neurotic.  KiKi Maroon: Yes!  Ross Bennett: That’s what it is.  KiKi Maroon: Yes, I’m a neurotic and I question the thoughts.  Ross Bennett: I had a girlfriend a couple of years ago and she was having that moment. We were going out and going to the beach or something, and she had her dog with her. All of a sudden, in the course of about 30 seconds, she questioned like 30 different things she was doing. KiKi Maroon: Yeah, and then you question the question because, “Am I asking the question because it’s a real question or…”  Ross Bennett: I looked at her and I smiled and I said, “You know, it wasn’t until this moment that I really understood what being neurotic was like.” Because she was just completely up in her head and completely questioning everything; it was just a big mess of a circle. KiKi Maroon: Oh, it just spirals. It spirals if I’m left alone. I can’t. Ross Bennett: And I was able laugh at it and she was able to laugh at it. We had a good sense of humor about all this, but I was able to see it for what it was, you know? And life is challenging. Like I said, at the very beginning, part of my toolbox was the 12 steps; those are part of my toolbox. There were some other things I got along the way, like Scott Peck’s book, The Road Less Travelled: A New Psychology of Love, Traditional Values and Spiritual Growth. That went into my toolbox at some point. That’s what gave me a way to bring spirituality into my life in a way that worked for me. KiKi Maroon: I don’t even know what it is and I will read it now, thank you. Ross Bennett: Yeah. And then I went through a period of time where I was reading a lot of self-help books.  KiKi Maroon: That’s where I’m at right now. Haha! Ross Bennett: I eventually stopped all of that.  KiKi Maroon: Aw, damn. Ross Bennett: There’s was a joke I heard – “Did you hear about the lady up in Northern California? She died in the middle of the night. Her pile of self-help books fell off her bookstand and smothered her to death.” KiKi Maroon: Oh! Hahaha! I’m using a Kindle, so I will not smother. Ross Bennett: She was crushed to death. The absorption of information without implementing the actions can be numbing, because you have all this information that you add to this judgment thing that’s going on in your head all the time. So I just eventually realized that I pretty much have all the information I need. What I need to be doing is implementing this in my life. And so these days, at this point in my life, I just try to get small. Actually, “get right sized” is actually more of the proper way to say it.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Damn, haha.   Ross Bennett: There is no right or wrong. KiKi Maroon: I know. I really like doing these conversations because I like speaking to people who are much further along than I am. A lot of times, things are just so clear to them or there are things that they’ve already gone through and I’m like, “Okay, that’s that thing I just did. That’s the thing that I’m going into.” But I know everybody is different. Ross Bennett: Let me tell you something – this whole idea of someone being “further along”- I don’t like that. I don’t like the thought of that. I really like the idea of “one day at a time,” because we’ve all been around people, and you’ve been around this, where you’ll be in the most messed up place – anxiety, fear, anger, whatever it happens to be – you’re messed up. And you’ll be at a meeting or you’ll be talking to somebody and you’ll say some sort of a truth. And then all of a sudden, you laugh and it just lifts. It’s instantaneous, and you feel like everything is just fine. Like right now, I feel everything is just fine. It doesn’t take 30 years to get to this place.  KiKi Maroon: Yeah.  Ross Bennett: You’re at that same… you know, right now – you’re just fine right now, right? KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Haha. Ross Bennett: You’re happy? KiKi Maroon: Yes. Ross Bennett: You’re okay? KiKi Maroon: Yes. Ross Bennett: You’re in good shape! So it’s not about being “further along”. I just have more experience because I’m old. Haha. You know, it seems there’s a price to be paid for this. This is just the accumulation of information and life, that’s all. But it’s not something that you’ve done, that you’re further along. I’ll go to these meetings and you get these old-timers. I was working on ships and going to meetings on ships.  KiKi Maroon: Wait, like cruises? Ross Bennett: Yeah.  KiKi Maroon: I didn’t know they had meetings on cruises. That makes sense though. Ross Bennett: Friends of Bill W. or something like that.  KiKi Maroon: Oh, I didn’t know! Okay. Ross Bennett: And I remember there were three or four of us. One guy had like 10 years, one guy had like 15, one guy had 12, and I had 17 or whatever. They’re all talking about how great their lives are and everything. And I said, “Nothing worse than a bunch of old farts with a bunch of time talking about how good their lives are. That’s boring. What we need is a newcomer.” KiKi Maroon: Haha! “Come in and shake it up!” Ross Bennett: We need a newcomer to tell the truth to, to be able to actually talk the 12th Step to. Because otherwise, you’re just jerking off. KiKi Maroon: Haha! Ross Bennett: And boy, they got pissed.  KiKi Maroon: Oh, no! Ross Bennett: They got pissed and I said something that was probably inappropriate. I was commenting on them and their pomposity and all that kind of stuff.  KiKi Maroon: Hahaha! Ross Bennett: I always have to remember that it’s about two people, really: one having recovery and desperately trying to hang on to it and another caught up in the disease, wanting to stop, but not knowing how to stop. It’s when those two forces get together that it’s like flint and steel – it creates a spark. And that’s what makes this thing happen. It’s not about getting “further down the road”. KiKi Maroon: I like that. Yeah. That makes sense. Ross Bennett: And mind you, I’m really glad to be where I am in my life and everything, and I know what you mean, but you just got to… it’s really all about being in the day. Being in the moment. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. I mean, honestly, that’s the biggest thing, is learning to be in the moment. Because I spent most of my life trying to not be in the moment. So I’m learning how to do that every day. Sometimes, I’m not so great at it. Ross Bennett: I used to hear, you know, “Life is the performance. This is not a rehearsal.”  KiKi Maroon: Yeah.  Ross Bennett: So many times, I spent my life thinking I was rehearsing for my real life, that it was going to happen over there. No, this is my real life right now, you know?! Sitting in this little corner area and talking. This is my real life right now. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. I tell myself sometimes to remind myself that I’m living the goal right now, like past-me’s goals and what I wanted – I’m at that now! It’s just that the goalposts keep moving, so I feel like I’m not at “the thing” yet. But this was more than what I thought I was going to achieve many, many years ago, so just to accept that. I just want to believe everything’s going to turn out happy all the time. Haha that doesn’t happen. Ross Bennett: Well, I think that’s why you drink. “I want it to turn out happy all the time.” KiKi Maroon: Haha, yeah. I just tried to create fantasy worlds, but now I do it professionally. Haha.  So last thing, my final ask for the podcast. I like to ask everybody- if you could snap your fingers and everybody around the world just instantly believed something that was good for humanity, what would that thing be? Ross Bennett: Hmm, that just because we disagree, doesn’t mean we can’t be civil with each other. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. There’s a lot of disagreeing going on right now. Ross Bennett: Just because we disagree, doesn’t mean we can’t be civil with each other. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. It’s just empathy a lot of times, I think. I feel like we’re lacking empathy. And again, it makes me sad. I want everything to be okay. Ross Bennett: Deanna Troi, remember Star Trek: The Next Generation? KiKi Maroon: Yes. Haha. Ross Bennett: She’s an empath. And I’m not a Trekkie, but I always remembered that. I remember watching the very beginning of that series and her whole thing being an empath was that she could feel. That was her whole thing; she could feel what other people were feeling. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. I know it’s easy to blame social media and stuff, but I do think that’s so much of it. I think it’s done amazing things, like the fact that we’re talking right now. It’s connecting people around the world. You find these bubbles of connections, but it’s also breaking up the one-on-one, which you need to have empathy. I think it’s so easy to argue if you’re not looking in each other’s eyes. It’s so easy to name call. It’s so easy to just completely discount what someone else has to say, and it’s really unfortunate. Ross Bennett: Yeah. I’ve gotten to the point on my Facebook page, once somebody has a diatribe… Poof. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Ross Bennett: They may still be on the friend list, but I don’t follow them anymore. You know, I only want bubbles and rainbows and unicorns. KiKi Maroon: Yeah. Hahaha me too! I have a rule: if I roll my eyes at anything you say, I hide you. Because I’m curating my world and my experience in my life right now and those eye rolls add up throughout the day. Haha.  Thank you so much for sitting down with me. I really, really appreciate it.  Ross Bennett: My pleasure! KiKi Maroon: So if people want to follow up with you, where should they go? To your website? Ross Bennett: I’ve got my website, RossBennett.com. I’ve got two CDs. They can get them on iTunes. One of them is New York Country and the other one is Not if You Were the Last Man on Earth. KiKi Maroon: Okay. Awesome! I’ll put links to both of those in the show notes. Ross Bennett: And they’re good! I’m proud of them. KiKi Maroon: Thank you so much. I really appreciate this.  [Theme song: “Last Call” provided by The Last Domino] KiKi Maroon: That was Ross Bennett! I definitely want to go back to New York and take his class. He was so damn interesting! And really, really smart. Before we go, I wanted to give y’all a quick update since the last episode was really heavy. I’m doing better now, healthwise and mentally-wise! Haha. I’m healing up. Things are going good. I’m so sorry if I scared y’all, but I promise, things are okay! A lot of you reached out to me about it, which I so, soappreciate.  One of those people was John Rabon. He was the comedian that we met in Episode 4. It’s a great episode. If you haven’t listened to it, please go back and listen. His podcast Yes, I’m Still Sober is sogood. Check that out. He is the best kind of bitter!  So John wrote this blog post back in 2014 called, “It Gets Better,” about how much he hates people who say, “It gets better!” Haha! He sent it to me after listening to the emotional wreck that was the last episode and it’s great. I linked to it in the show notes, but I also asked him if he would read it for y’all, which he was awesome enough to do and send over. So please listen, enjoy, subscribe to both of our podcasts and I’ll be back next week! John Rabon: This is from my blog at 9thcircleofheck.com dated Monday, July 28th, 2014 at 2:23 in the morning. It’s called, “It Gets Better,” in heavy quotations.  Sometimes Facebook is a good thing. By being on the damn thing, it allows people I know, who I normally don’t talk to on my phone, to be able to contact me… although I would normally say that’s a deterrent for using social networking. Interacting with others? Gross. Recently, a friend messaged me because they were having a crisis. It was a bad situation, and they were at that edge of complete despair. They needed to be “talked down” from that edge, and I did the best I could, which was apparently enough. They’re doing better and they thanked me for listening and talking them through it. Why did they contact me? I’ll be the first one to tell you I am not a great resource for solid advice. I am a prime example of how not to do many things, so yeah, if you want to know the worst way to handle something, I suppose you could ask, “Hey, John, what would you do?” and then do the opposite. “Hey Rabon, I’m having this horrible dispute with a finance company. They may ruin my credit if I don’t comply.” “Well, fuck them, man! What do you really need credit for, huh?! Expensive possessions that will make you a slave?! It’s a burden! Don’t play their stupid credit game, it’s all made up anyway! Go out and live!” “Ah. Set up a payment plan. Gotcha.” No, my friend contacted me because they were at maybe the lowest point in their life, or at least it felt that way… and they knew I had been there. I know what it’s like to be devoid of hope and ready to just submit to the abyss. They didn’t want encouragement or a pep talk. They wanted someone who could relate and who wouldn’t bullshit them. I don’t believe in fate, but I like to entertain the notion that I have made it to this point in my life to help others in just this way. I find it comforting to think that my purpose is to occasionally help someone who needs it. This might be a bunch of crap, but hey, everyone is entitled to their own delusion. Besides… whether I help someone because of a mystical destiny or just because I owe the universe for over a decade of hedonism, the end result is the same. I’m stubborn and hard to kill… might as well put that to good use. I don’t bullshit somebody in pain. I may not be able to recollect much of the past 10 or 15 years, but I remember what “rock bottom” feels like, and I remember what I did not want to hear. There is nothing like positive affirmations from the misguided to really send you into a rage when you’re down. Forced optimism is more depressing than actual depression. “Hang in there!” – As much as I love ridiculous pictures of cats, if you show me one of those with the kitten hanging for dear life and those three words on it, it tends to make me reconsider my opposition to violence. “Smile!” – If you’re an individual who likes to walk by a coworker’s cubicle and tell them to smile first thing in morning (or at any point in the day), I don’t think you’re aware how close you have come to enduring a stapler bludgeoning. Oh, and guys: “You look prettier when you smile”? Just go ahead and say, “Hey, it’s harder to sexually harass you when you’re all down and stuff. It’s kind of a buzz kill.” Asshats. I think the worst one to hear is the most common one people say: “It gets better.” Hearing this sucks because it comes from someone who (you think) isn’t going through what you are and hasn’t been where you are. How would you know? Don’t blow smoke up my ass! And then, when it inevitably does get better, you still feel like telling them, “Oh fuck off, you didn’t know.” I think we just don’t like some people to be right, because we don’t want advice. Don’t try to fix me, just recognize I’m broken. The truth is, it will get better. Eventually. And then it will get worse at some point. I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know, but our brains can completely forget this when we’re down in a hole. Your fears and thoughts can cripple you and send you into a spiral that you don’t think you’ll recover from or even survive. And this all sucks because it’s in our heads, not real. And we hurt ourselves way more than the actual thing we fear will. We put ourselves through hell based on the perceived possibility of purgatory. Four years ago, I was a junkie and lost my job, my apartment, and the woman I loved. I was staying on a friend’s couch, and I was sure that was it for me. If I had a gun, I would have killed myself. Okay, actually, I would have sold it and bought heroin. But if I had TWO guns… it was bad. At the time, I considered it the worst moment of my life. I was wrong. Because it got better. Then, six months later, I overdosed while living at my father’s house after being sober for a month. Dad happened to come home from work and saved my life. When I woke up in the emergency room, I had a brand new “rock bottom.” Incidentally, the only real rock bottom is death. Things can always get worse. Things improved. Because of that I went to rehab… started over in a new city. I made good decisions and poor decisions. Life went on. Due to getting arrested for public intoxication in 2012 while still on felony DWI probation, I had to come back to Austin and go to jail. While in county lockup, I was told I would have to do a five month alcohol and drug treatment program and remain incarcerated and that I wasn’t going back to my established life in San Antonio. I had lost everything, again. And being sober in jail allowed me to really feel this low moment, making it way worse than when I was strung out all the time. About a month later, while still in the custody of Travis County, I had a high point. I had begun to rebuild my thought process without being heavily medicated by booze or drugs, and I was reading Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, laughing hysterically. Even though I was in the middle of an awful place with questionable people and dressed in reject nurse’s scrubs, I was happy at that moment. Another moment was being able to host the open mic again at the Velveeta Room a couple of weeks ago. It was a very “everything in its right place” moment for me. In fact, I have a brief feeling of euphoria every time I skate to or from work. The highlight of my day is usually when I’m on a skateboard. And that is how it will go for whatever amount of time I have left. I’m going to enjoy those ups and fight through those downs. A low point is coming, and I can’t stop that. While I do wish sometimes I had an option again to escape feeling shitty, I am completely comfortable with feeling now. That’s the problem with heavy alcohol and drug consumption/abuse… and for some, with prescriptions you probably don’t need. You stay even keel and numb so you can avoid pain and sadness… and you also avoid pleasure and happiness. It took me a long time to figure that out. Everyone is different, so I don’t want to tell you what you need. For me, being able to enjoy those beautiful moments in my life, fully, is worth the ordeal of completely feeling those times of despair. I just have to remember to keep fighting when everything just sucks. I think I just wrote a big, long, positive affirmation that would probably make me roll my eyes if it came from someone else. I don’t know if anyone will get something from this or not, and I probably would have been fine with instead posting the lyrics to R.E.M.’s “Everybody Hurts.” Truthfully, the main reason I wrote this tonight was for me to read in the future when life takes a turn. So, John, when you read this, take it from someone you’ll listen to (you, dummy): It gets better. Hang in there. You don’t have to smile, though. Fuck that. [Theme song: “Last Call” provided by The Last Domino]

Hi. It’s been a little while. I wish I could say I went on vacation, but that’s not even a little true. I had to have surgery to remove some…stuff from one of my breasts before it turned into cancer. It went fine, I am healthy and healing now. But the surgery and all the uncertainty that came with it put me in a very bad place. I DID NOT relapse but for the first time in years, it was really, really hard to not drink this all away. So this episode is completely different. It gets really heavy, really fast. Mostly, it’s a catch-up to explain the last month to you and introduce two very special people. July St. Juniper and Honey Moonpie are my left and right hand women when it comes to the all shows I produce. They are not in recovery, but love someone who is (that’s me). July has been my rock for years. She began as my intern and has since become my best friend, assistant, and un-official therapist. I wanted them in this episode for two reasons. First off, because they nursed through this last month’s pain, so I can’t do a catchup if you don’t know who they are. And second, I always talk to the unravelers. This time I wanted to ask someone (or two), “how do you deal with someone you love unraveling in front of you?” They are amazing. I love them. I hope you love them too. Coincidently, this month is breast cancer awareness month, so feel yourself up. It might have saved my life. Maybe it’ll save yours too.  •Honey Moonpie on Facebook and Instagram•July St. Juniper on Instagram•How to self exam for lumps•The Burly Q Lounge•The BCBC Festival If you like the podcast, please consider signing up to my Patreon. Your donation helps with the operating cost and is the easiest way to say, “thanks for making this!” The Clown, Interrupted theme song is graciously provided by The Last Domino. You can listen to or purchase the full song HERE.