Show notes
I’ve had a lot of conversations this year about racial justice. Particularly in the wake of George Floyd’s murder, the white evangelicals I know have found themselves increasingly uncomfortable but unsure of how to proceed. White Lies gives them the answer. Despite the provocative title, Daniel Hill’s nine practices for exposing and resisting the structures that uphold White supremacy are clear, empathetic, and grace-filled. It is the perfect book for White evangelical Christians who are beginning their journey toward racial justice but want a firm, Biblically-backed foundation for doing so from a leader whose background and experiences mirror their own. I was halfway into the first chapter when I knew I needed to talk to Daniel about White Lies and our conversation did not disappoint.
The Interview | Daniel Hill
This excerpt has been lightly edited for brevity and clarity. You can listen to the full interview by clicking the play button above or subscribing to “Beyond the Page” at Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Josh Olds: Now, I want to start with this: You’re White; I’m white—we’re having this conversation about racial justice. And there can be a real tendency, and you talk about this in the book, in the “woke” white community to sort of talk over Black and other minority voices as we pursue justice. What ground rules should be set as White people when we have this conversation with other White people to make sure that we are allowing for BIPOC voices to be heard?
Daniel Hill: Yeah, thank you. I think it’s smart to start there. I definitely wouldn’t say it’s one or the other. There’s a role for both, right? And I think ultimately, you, me, all of us should be learning from credible, seasoned voices of color that have been doing this work. And when we’re talking about the system of race and white supremacy in particular, you know, nobody is going to see it more clearly than those who are disaffected. So there’s not any point in the journey where that we should not be listening to and learning from seasoned voices of color in this period. There’s no question about that.
I think what history continues to show is that even when they speak to us, we’re just not listening clearly enough, right? We’re just not making enough changes. And so, I think there’s an important role for White folks to be doing self-interrogation, you know, around their own kind of relationship and complicity with this. And so that’s what I would see what we’re doing, right? We’re not even taking somebody’s spot as much as saying, we’re listening to the collective wisdom is out there.
Josh Olds: The very first point you make in the book is the danger of being woke. And we have to define that phrase first. So, how do you define the word “woke?” And what do you feel is the danger of white people feeling that way?
Daniel Hill: Yeah, that was the trickiest title of any of them. because not a lot of people are doing this work. A lot of people don’t love the word “woke.” And so I don’t want to get fixated on the word itself. But I’d say in general, there’s two different profiles where white folks are at with this word. One is the much more common one where there’s just a lack of awakening, a lack of engagement, a lack of taking it seriously, you know, there’s kind of an ongoing indifference and apathy that has to be challenged. And then there’s another group that’s probably more represented by you and I who have begun to see that there’s a problem and want to be doing something about it. This is where the notion of wokeness kind of comes from and the way the term is usually used, when white people are speaking of it, is to be basically aware of the issues and be on the right side of the issues and down with t...
The Interview | Daniel Hill
This excerpt has been lightly edited for brevity and clarity. You can listen to the full interview by clicking the play button above or subscribing to “Beyond the Page” at Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Josh Olds: Now, I want to start with this: You’re White; I’m white—we’re having this conversation about racial justice. And there can be a real tendency, and you talk about this in the book, in the “woke” white community to sort of talk over Black and other minority voices as we pursue justice. What ground rules should be set as White people when we have this conversation with other White people to make sure that we are allowing for BIPOC voices to be heard?
Daniel Hill: Yeah, thank you. I think it’s smart to start there. I definitely wouldn’t say it’s one or the other. There’s a role for both, right? And I think ultimately, you, me, all of us should be learning from credible, seasoned voices of color that have been doing this work. And when we’re talking about the system of race and white supremacy in particular, you know, nobody is going to see it more clearly than those who are disaffected. So there’s not any point in the journey where that we should not be listening to and learning from seasoned voices of color in this period. There’s no question about that.
I think what history continues to show is that even when they speak to us, we’re just not listening clearly enough, right? We’re just not making enough changes. And so, I think there’s an important role for White folks to be doing self-interrogation, you know, around their own kind of relationship and complicity with this. And so that’s what I would see what we’re doing, right? We’re not even taking somebody’s spot as much as saying, we’re listening to the collective wisdom is out there.
Josh Olds: The very first point you make in the book is the danger of being woke. And we have to define that phrase first. So, how do you define the word “woke?” And what do you feel is the danger of white people feeling that way?
Daniel Hill: Yeah, that was the trickiest title of any of them. because not a lot of people are doing this work. A lot of people don’t love the word “woke.” And so I don’t want to get fixated on the word itself. But I’d say in general, there’s two different profiles where white folks are at with this word. One is the much more common one where there’s just a lack of awakening, a lack of engagement, a lack of taking it seriously, you know, there’s kind of an ongoing indifference and apathy that has to be challenged. And then there’s another group that’s probably more represented by you and I who have begun to see that there’s a problem and want to be doing something about it. This is where the notion of wokeness kind of comes from and the way the term is usually used, when white people are speaking of it, is to be basically aware of the issues and be on the right side of the issues and down with t...