“Transformation requires people changing. And I don't think most people change when they're defensive,” Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove told me.

Wilson-Hartgrove is a leader in progressive Christianity, but as a young man he was a conservative Republican in rural North Carolina. And he talks in this episode about how the debate over systemic racism is uncomfortable and intimidating for many white people, and how to reduce those tensions.

Jonathan was an organizer of the “Moral Mondays” protests in North Carolina in 2013, and is a leader in the Poor People’s Campaign movement that’s co-chaired by Rev. William Barber and Rev. Liz Theoharis. Jonathan has co-authored a book with Barber called “The Third Reconstruction: How a Moral Movement is Overcoming the Politics of Division and Fear.” He’s written several other books on his own, including his most recent, “Reconstructing the Gospel.” 

He talks about the Poor People's Campaign candidate forum with nine presidential candidates and how Rev. Barber has tried to maintain some separation between their movement and the Democratic party. We discuss the concept of keeping a "prophetic distance" in order to be able to speak truth to power, and whether progressive Christians are capable of that on issues like abortion.

Outro music: “Life’s Railway to Heaven” by the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band 

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