Show notes
Our walk through Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons’ Watchmen ends with issue #12, “A Strong And Loving World.” Or does it? Because nothing ever ends? No, this ends, as Dr. Manhattan and Laurie Blake return to Earth to confront Adrian Veidt; and our assembled heroes are faced with an impossible decision.SUBSCRIBE TO WATCHMEN WATCH ON ITUNES, ANDROID, SPOTIFY, STITCHER, OR RSS. FOLLOW US ON TWITTER, INSTAGRAM AND FACEBOOK. SUPPORT OUR SHOWS ON PATREON.The theme music for Watchmen Watch was written and performed by Jeff Solomon.Plus, here’s a transcript of the episode, so you can read along as you listen:Alex: Welcometo Watchmen Watch, who watches it? We get ready to watch it as we’re coming upon Watchmen Watch on HBO, but first, we’re going to be watching a comic bookwhich just kind of sits there. I’m Alex.Justin: I’mJustin.Pete: Iam Pete.Alex: Weare going to be talking about the final issue of the Watchmen comic, the 12thissue, A Stronger Loving World, as we wrap up our recap of the comic, andtransition totally seamlessly into recapping the TV show, no breaks there,don’t even worry about it. Before we get into it though, I’m a little concernedhere, I see you Justin, I see you Pete, our fourth co-host including-Pete: Comeon man-Alex: …some of the biggest four people, isn’t here, what’s going on?Justin: Well,It’s a great day here. I actually have some very exciting news. Alan is here,Alan go ahead and introduce yourself. Hello… I’m just kidding, he’s not here.It’s-Alex: Man.Justin: …he bailed again.Pete: Thatwas…Alex: Thatwas fine.Justin: We’redoing this really insulting them.Alex: Yes.We do this over video Skype chat. Even though I can see you when you startdoing that voice, I was like, I’m convinced he’s here. That’s how good yourvoice was.Justin: Yes,I am here.Alex: He’shere again. Pete is here.Justin: No,that’s just me. That’s how seamless when you’re a classically trained actor asI am, you can slip in and out of a character. Sorry, Alan Moore isn’t going tomake it for the 12th and final time.Alex: Man,that is too bad. Well, hopefully I know how psyched he is about the show, he’sbeen out on the promotional tour, chatting it up, talking about what’s going onin HBO.Justin: He’sat a Buffalo Wild Wings premiere party for Watchmen.Pete: I’mgoing to be there for that. [crosstalk Justin: Hehas a sauce that’s branded the Alan Moore nuclear explosion wings.Alex: Iheard they’re also putting that on the Rorschach shows.Justin: Thoseare not shows.Alex: Yes.Justin: It’stricky. Alan Moore has lost a step as a writer, especially when it comes tonaming a product tie in appetizers.Alex: Heused to be so good at that too.Justin: Yes.Alex: It’ssurprising.Justin: That’sright. He was the one that came up with unlimited breadsticks. They used to beunlimited potential Doctor Manhattan breadsticks.Alex: That’sall-Pete: Werethey blue?Alex: …why I always feel like it’s five minutes to midnight whenever I go to the olivegarden.Justin: 100%.Guys-Alex: It’sthe-Justin: …Their original slogan was, when you’re here, you have a blue dick, they changedit to family.Alex: Iremember I went there one time and I was like, “Hey, we’ve been waitingfor a while for our food, can we get our food?” And they were like,“You ate it 35 minutes ago.”Justin: That’show they made a fortune in their early days.Alex: Theyget you, every time they get you, do you know who also gets you? Adrian Veidtgets you, Ozymandias gets you and he gets the entire world. He got them. He didthe ultimate punked episode. He punked the entire world in this issue. Reallyglad I went for that reference.Justin: No,this is the context we should speak about this final issue. It is the ultimatepunkting.Alex: Whenwe left the characters of this book… I was about to say the what.Justin: Whenwe left the characters, we said a hardy goodbye last day issue. And here weare, knock, knock, knocking on the character’s doors again. Let’s go inside,issue 12.Alex: Hello,Watchmen, you there?Justin: HelloAlex.Alex: It’sme-Justin: AlanMoore.Alex: Wellanyway, New York got destroyed by a giant psychic squid that Ozymandias droppedthere in order to create a fake alien invasion, which is something that weaffirm in, we talk about more in this issue, in order to promote and causeworld peace. Right now, Nite Owl and Rorschach are both at Adrian Veidt’sheadquarters, they’ve just been told about his plan.Alex: Theyare pretty shocked at the end of this issue when it actually turned out toactually have happened. Meanwhile, Silk Spectre and Doctor Manhattan are allthe way up on Mars, though they’re heading that way as well and everythingcomes crashing together in this oversized final issue. Before we get into it,this feels like a very dumb question to ask with Watchmen, having revisited theseries, what’d you think about it?Alex: Butreally, I mean like, we’ve been talking about this all along, but I’m curiousnow that we’ve reached the end, now… and we’re going to go through the wholeissue, and we’re going to walk through the issue, but what was your generaltake on it with this re-reading now in 2019?Justin: Ithink too, we change as readers over the years, obviously, and I haven’t fullysat down and read this in probably six or seven years. I do think, just as afan of comics, the older you get and the more time passes, the more time thatyou live, a fan of comics are in the world where the political atmosphere chainis changing all the time.Justin: Ithink this comic deepens so much. I do think that happened. I think thetopicality of reading it right now, in our political atmosphere, the currentsort of a state of the world and with the series about to come out and sort ofreframe this whole series, it’s an exciting time to read this comic.Alex: Howabout you Pete? How are you feeling about it now?Pete: Well,it’s a lot to talk about, but for sure, I mean the problem is, when you’relooking at a comic like this that was written so long ago, there’s a lot ofbullshit that you have to kind of try to ignore like the female characters, theoversexualization, there’s a lot of bullshit, but-Justin: Iwill say that was there in the original read. They didn’t take any more womenout. It didn’t use to pass the Bechdel test and then now suddenly has failedit.Alex: Well,I will say, this is coming right off of right before we taped, there was athread in our patriot slack, about this very issue, which frankly I think iswhat Pete’s very rightly responding to and that’s something that we’ve talkedabout all along in the podcast, that this, it’s an incredible comic book, it’san undeniable artistic achievement, but it’s also very much a product of itstime at the same moment.Alex: Ithink something I struck by which you’ve talked about a lot, and you justmentioned Justin, is the very timeless aspects of the book in terms ofcriticizing society, talking about panic, talking about conspiracy theoriesthat feel so relevant right now but to Pete’s point, same sort of thing that,yes, the female characters are absolutely underserved and I think from a 2019 perspectivewhen we’ve seen… I’m not going to say infinite more but a lot more femalecreators and male creators also being more cognizant about these sorts ofthings in terms of creating books, we’ve certainly seen a revolution in comicbooks.Alex: Imean if you look at sales, the predominant force in comic books today isn’tMarvel comic books, it isn’t DC comic books. It’s Raina Telgemeier who ismostly writing graphic novels for, young females almost more than anything andthat’s, if you look at the New York Times best sellers right now, that’s whatpeople are reading. That’s what they’re being influenced by.Alex: Ina certain sense this, just from the comic book perspective is responding tocomic books that were coming out in the mid 80’s and before that and pushingthose forward. A lot of, we’ve talked about over the course of the podcast,comics since then have been responding and riffing off of Watchmen, oftentaking the wrong lessons in terms of [uber macho grimness and all of these things, but to its credit, despite the fact that itdoes have some serious issues in terms of the female characters, which I thinkwe’ll also get to later in this issue when we get to certain material withSally Jupiter in particular, I think one of the most controversial things thathappens in all 12 issues happens towards the end here.Alex: Butthere are also things that are still very relevant and from a modern read,again, like we’ve been talking about all along, Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons arenever telling you these are good people, this is the right way of doing things.Justin: Ifeel like the thing of taking the wrong lessons, this is not a misogynisticcomic in that it’s like, hey, these characters are right, this is what’shappening. This kind of got to be like criticizes so much of the comic bookindustry and the character development that most comics were having in theirpages back then when it came out. I agree the female characters are underservedand you don’t see them a lot but they have depth of character, they’re not justthere as objects.Justin: Andthen the male characters are mostly horrible people and they’re shown to bethat way, the greatest heroes are the most flawed. Rorschach in this issue, whois the only one that really has integrity at the end of the day, is justmercilessly struck down. I’m just saying, I think this comic is subverting alot of the stereotypes, as well as it upholds them.Pete: Yeah,that’s true. But I mean, you’re right with a lot of things. The female characters,they don’t have conversations on their own. It’s always talking about… At theend, not to kind of jump ahead, but like you’re saying, she loves her rapist. Imean that’s like… it’s not well done.Justin: No.Well that’s [crosstalk Pete: Iunderstand what you’re saying, but like there’s a lot of really fucked up shit.Alex: Iget it. I’m on board with what you’re saying, Pete, for the most part, exceptfor the, it’s not well done, because to Justin’s point, that this is very much jumpingto the end and talking about the Sally Jupiter of it all but, it’s complicatedemotions that she’s feeling. And I think you don’t have to agree with whatshe’s feeling, but it is a very, or it’s a very realistic thing for people tonot feel the right thing all the time, to in fact have the wrong feelings aboutthe wrong people. That’s how gas lighting works. That’s how abuse works, isthat you feel something, or think you feel something towards your abuser, evenif it’s not actually a good thing to feel, if that makes sense.Justin: It’sone thing to glorify what happens at the end, and I agree it is controversial.When she kisses that picture, it leaves you with a bad feeling, but maybethere… it’s hard to tell what the intention of that move is, but it’sdefinitely confusing and it’s… but it does feel like it’s coming from a placeof the character, but the character’s wrong, in feeling that way, or thecharacter is, I mean it’s hard to say that I guess, but the character feels, itmakes you feel bad, about everyone’s lives in this comic.Alex: Yeah,I could be wrong, I’m trying to flip through the comic quickly to take a lookat it. I guess she doesn’t have… for some reason I thought it was there, butI, don’t they mentioned til they give her nostalgia or something like that? Theperfume, at some point in that scene, or am I imagining that?Justin: Ithink you’re imagining that. Dan’s wearing it when he’s with Laurie.Alex: Thereyou go, that’s what I’m thinking of. I think what I take away from that scene,and we’re very much jumping to the end of the issue here, just to give you guysa little context listening at home, Dan and Lori are in disguise aftereverything else that we’re going to talk about at the issue, they go to visitSally Jupiter, and chat with her a little bit. Laurie reveals that she knowsher father is Eddie Blake. Sally starts sobbing, talks about the complicatedemotion of it, and as Justin mentioned, ends up kissing the picture.Alex: WhatI took away from that is that feeling of nostalgia, right? It’s almost the samething that Ozymandias is working for. The same way he’s talking about this veryvague, wonderful, hopeful future, where everybody’s going to work together,when in practice, it may not turn out that way. Nostalgia is the same way,right? We have fuzzy memories, we think warm things about things-Justin: Well,and there’s another-Alex: Goahead Justin.Justin: Thereanother way to read it. I mean, I agree with you. There’s another way to readit too, she’s just seen her daughter who she thought was dead, surprised her bywalking in, is in a relationship that ostensibly seems happy, they’re talkingabout having kids.Justin: AndI think there’s something, it could just be she’s happy that she had her child,despite the horrible circumstances that, and relationship she had with TheComedian.Justin: Likea lot of great writing, it’s open for interpretation, and one of theinterpretations is super fucked up, but there are others that you can take fromthat.Alex: Well,and the other thing we talked about back in the issue where it was revealedthat Eddie Blake was Laurie’s father, when she realized that, I think there wasissue nine maybe, maybe issue 10, and I think we disagree with this, but Istill stick by the interpretation that, Eddie Blake does feel something towardsLaurie and he feels kind of something, towards Sally, that doesn’t in any wayforgive his actions or what he’s done or make him less of a monster, but thatdoesn’t mean he can’t also be passionate towards these people in the same way,though ultimately he is a bad guy. Pete, I interrupted you though. What wereyou going to say?Pete: Well,I was just going to say that, some of these things that happen are sort ofawful. We’re trying to show these people as not good people, sure. But also allLaurie does is she’s just sleeping with dudes every time you see her, or she’son her knees in a sexualized position, it’s like, if there was some kind ofgood quality that they would try to portray, I think it would just go a littlebit easier with kind of being like, okay.Alex: WellI’ll tell you what, I will disagree with you at certain points on this issue inparticular, that I do feel has a re-owning of the Laurie Blake character, anddoes push her forward into giving her much more agency, which we’ll get to in amoment. Let’s put a pit into this discussion, I’m sure we’ll re-visit itthroughout the issue, and why don’t we jump into a page by page of what’s goingon, real easy by the way, to get through these first couple of pages, I’m justgoing to say. It’s just real easy, just flipping right through them, just abunch of destruction, squid legs, et cetera, et cetera. It’s great-Pete: It’sbeen fun-Alex: …just like-Pete: palehorse, we would love to see pale horse sold out.Alex: …Exactly. Has this series used full page splashes at any point previously?Justin: No,definitely not back to back. I think, that’s what is so amazing about this, isthe way to sort of hold that back, and then to let Dave Gibbons just go to townhere and the colors in these pages as well are just so amazing-Alex: JohnHiggins.Justin: Wesee little references to everything we’ve seen before. We see characters thatwe’ve met, who are now laying dead in the streets. It’s just such epicstorytelling and Plate used it, just the right moment in the series.Pete: Imean, I’m def-, I’m sorry.Justin: Goahead Pete.Pete: I’ddefinitely looked through it to see if there was anything like this, and theclosest you get, is when they’re on Mars, but it’s not giant scenes like this.They thought about the paneling, and the coloring, and how it was going to hityou so well, I mean, the layers, that’s very impressive.Alex: Twothings in particular I want to call out, about the sequence, which is, let’ssee, one, two, three, four, five, six pages long, the first page is bloodpouring over the clock, which of course calls to mind, The Comedian’s buttonbecause it’s the same colors there with the blood in the clock, even thoughit’s a different design, but also-Justin: Andthe sequence actually ends on page six with, some are very small, Comediansbutton, underneath the news-Alex: Yes.Justin: …thing.Alex: Yeah,that’s right. That’s been the back matter of the entire time. Every time youget to the end page, you see the blood dripping down to the clock. To behonest, I’m not 100% sure if that’s in just the collected edition or that wasin the original issues, but that’s, I think super fascinating. The other thingthat I think is incredible about this, is the way they slowly work out thesquid because you look at that first page, it’s not there, you just see thedestruction.Alex: Secondspage, if you’re not looking closely, at least my eye initially went towardsMadison Square Garden, you see the pale horse and Kristallnacht poster, you seethe destruction there and it isn’t until you look at the next page and you go,wait a second, what’s that weird thing coming across the left side of the pagethat you look up and you see it connects to this tentacle.Alex: It’sclearer and clearer as you go on, as you see more destruction, until you canget to that sixth page, and you see the squid face reveal the same as thatdrawing we saw back on the island, so many issues ago at this point, and as youmentioned Justin, paper’s falling everywhere with war. We see the news, we seeThe Comedian button. It’s really everything coming together at this point.Justin: Yeah,it’s so good. And just the way that that final squid panel, you really get tolook it right in the eye and just see what a monstrous creation this wholething was.Alex: Yeah,it’s the final squid down as they say, now-Pete: Comeon.Alex: What?Then we get into a series of pages where Laurie and Doctor Manhattan have comeback to earth. Doctor Manhattan being predictably an asshole about all of this.He really is, I don’t know why, the rest of the series, I was like, yeah, I getit, you’re all out of type or whatever. But this, he’s standing in the middleof this and he’s like, this is interesting and I’m like, fuck you do bad. Comeon.Justin: Yeah.Well I do think-Alex: He’skind of smiling as he’s looking around.Justin: WellI think he’s intoxicated by this feeling, he doesn’t know what’s happening.This is the first time this has happened really, since his accident where he isunaware of what it’s… the first mystery he’s really faced, where he wasn’t incontrol in a long time and he’s clearly intoxicated by it. He doesn’t careabout any of the other characters really in this. He’s just enjoying his littlefix here and he really sees himself as a god no matter what he actually is.Alex: Now,not to open this particular can of worms again, but one thing, that Iunderstand the complications here, but one thing that I do think is in Laurie’scredit that I really like in the scene, is she is the one character in thebook, up until later on when Rorschach starts crying, and we’ll certainly talkabout that, that feels any sort of motion, she has any sort of feeling aboutwhat’s going on. Nite Owl and Rorschach are literally and figuratively veryremoved from everything that’s going on.Alex: Ozymandiasis obviously very into his plan. Doctor Manhattan is being an asshole, butLaurie is sobbing and noticing the little things, and I think that does pointto her power as a character. The reason I say it’s a complication is becauseit’s the one female character who is allowed to feel things, but to your point,Justin, I do wonder if that is them pointing out how comics work, that the menneed to be [Uba am I giving them too much credit there?Justin: Imean that yeah, it could be. It just tracks with her character, she’s someonewho is very empathetic. I feel like throughout, she’s always going through it,whether that’s attributed to her, or just like women are like that, says I AlanMoore, but I do think also, another good thing about the way she acts in thisscene is, she’s fully moved on from her feelings toward John and is just like,alright, take me out of here now. I’m sick of being around you and thishorrifying scene.Alex: Yeah.Then we do cut to Adrian Veidt who’s still talking tonight, Alan Rorschach andI love Doritos reaction here where he was like, well that’s ridiculous. Whatare you even talking about? That can’t possibly be true. Why do you think it’simportant that he has that reaction?Justin: Idon’t know. I’ve never… Nite Owl in this whole issue, he just… a characterthey were supposed to really feel for and be like, he is the, maybe the hero ofthis story. He’s the one who really helps put it together and is trying to havethis romantic relationship that we’re all behind. He’s like, doesn’t believeAdrian Veidt. He doesn’t really do anything in this issue. He just sort offloats there. And it’s weird because over the arc of his, of Nite Owl throughthis series has been like, he really got his mojo back, and in this issue he’sjust like, hey, what? I don’t know, what’s happening. I don’t believe any ofyou. Then he’s like, I’ll have sex with you, Laurie.Alex: Yeah.What’s your take on it, Pete? Do you have-Pete: WellI think-Alex: Goahead.Pete: …I think that he’s just kind of in total shock. He’s not really comprehendingwhat’s happening. He’s not really aware and you just kind of… And that’s whatsucks, is he got to this point and he’s not, at least Rorschach was trying tofight, but he’s just in complete shell shock mode, and kind of shutdown, which,I definitely have heard people say that, when something tragic or they can’tbelieve happens, they just kind of go into ghost mode and they’re just kind ofremoved from all of that’s happening.Alex: Sorry.I believe that’s called enacting ghost protocol?Justin: Yeah,that’s what it is. That’s why in ghost protocol Tom cruise is like, what? Wait,what? What’s happening in this movie?Alex: Allright-Justin: That’swhat he says-Alex: …I don’t want to deal with this, no thanks. But they’re like, their mission ifyou choose to accept it, and he’s like, no thanks, I’m good.Justin: Pleaseblow up tape.Pete: Iagree with you while you’re singing about Laurie, she’s the only one who getsher shit together here, and puts up a fight but then the fact that like, let’sjust have sex again. It’s like, god, can she just…Alex: Imean, what did she… well, I don’t know. I think it’s [crosstalk After that, I’m a man, I want to have sex all the time, but after like, okay,first off-Justin: Bigreveal, big reveal Pete, for the end of this part.Alex: Evenright now on our podcast.Pete: No,but like-Alex: Thisturns you on?Pete: …no.Justin: Thisis the only time you don’t want to have sex, is when you’re talking to us?Pete: Ohmy god, yes-Justin: Thatseems weird.Pete: …my point is after all that happened, it seems like that’s like, hey by the way-Alex: I’msorry to interrupt you one more time, but what if I put on my sexiest voicebit?Justin: I’mso hot right now.Alex: Anyways.I’m starting to feel like I didn’t have my mojo, like Nite Owl.Pete: Idon’t think you-Justin: It’strue.Pete: …do have it.Alex: Areyou sure Pete?Pete: Pleasefor the love of God, stop.Justin: Also,Alex objectively, that’s not a sexy voice.Alex: Areyou sure? But that’s too much to have happen-Justin: Yousound like you have a cold-Pete: Tothen want to do that-Alex: Ido-Pete: …my point.Alex: …it’s like a very bad cold. Do you like that?Justin: [crosstalksex talk.Pete: I’mjust saying it’s too much to have happen and then be like, hey, let’s have sex.Justin: Well,but I will say, it, I mean, we’ll get to that in a second, but it’s Laurie’sidea. It’s not like Dan’s like, all right, let’s get lucky.Pete: I’mjust saying her only purpose is a sexual object. She should have more.Alex: Iunderstand what you’re saying and I understand you’re hitting the same job but,in that scene, and we’re definitely jumping ahead, Laurie is the one who saysit, and this might be a shock to you, but some women, like to have sex as well,I don’t know. I think that’s her actually taking control, if anything, whenthere’s all these men who have been wanting to have sex with her, and shefinally says, no, you know what? It’s the end of the world. This is what Iwant. This is what I need right now.Justin: Cool.And in her time of crisis in the past, when her marriage is falling apart andshe didn’t know what was, what she was going to do, she did find comfort inDan’s arms, and maybe it’s that, but on Pete side, it is weird that they, didshe, that’s the scene we see with them. They don’t have much of a romanticmoment. They just fuck by a pool. It’s definitely a surprising thing. When Iwas a kid reading this, I was like, what?Alex: Itgives Doctor Manhattan, he’s happy for some reason about that, which is weird.Justin: BecauseI think he at that moment, I’ve always read that as they belong together andhe’s like, I should go. I don’t belong here.Alex: Igot to go to space, I guess.Justin: WhenI walk in on my partners having sex with another man, I smile and I’m like ontothe next town.Alex: Man.All right, Nite Owl and Rorschach are there, there’s a great series of panelsthat happen, where Nite Owl is calling out Adrian Veidt. He’s like, you gotassassinated. What if he had shot you instead of the secretary? And Adriansays, I suppose I would’ve had to catch the bullet, wouldn’t I. And Nite Owlsays, “You? nah, come on that’s completely, you couldn’t really dothat.” There’s just a silent battle of Adrian Veidt smiling and lookinghim. I love that expression so much.Justin: Iknow, talk about being an asshole. What a dick-Alex: Yes.Justin: …in this series of panels. Now I always thought this was set up long before, thewhole catching the bullet thing, but it really is just like, he says it hereand then he does it, a couple of pages later, which I thought was so funny,that’s become such a thing associated with him, but it really is just like alast minute, like I could do that, see, and he does it.Pete: What’sf-Alex: Ithink, go ahead Pete.Pete: …that’s fucked up though, that the evil villain smile is your favorite paneldude.Alex: No,I just think it’s a well drawn expression on the part of Dave Gibbons and theway that it’s timed out there is excellent. The thing I would say Justin aboutthat, that points to, which we’ve talked about before, is that Alan Moore, DaveGibbons made sure that these issues were a package. There are certainly thingsthat are long running throughout. There were things plot wise, the paythroughout, but every issue, it does introduce things and then pay them offseveral pages later. There’s still this sense of yes, this is the last issue,but if you’re going to be plunking down your money to buy just this issue,you’re still going to get kind of a complete story at the same time, which Ithink is pretty neat.Justin: Yeah,definitely. I just think it’s funny how I met has grown to be such a biggerthing about his character over the years. Another thing about about Nite Owl, Ido think, Adrian Veidt is sort of up on a pedestal for Nite Owl, in the sameway that Nite Owl one was for him, that might explain some of his sort ofinactive, inactivity throughout this whole issue is, he’s his hero in a way it seems.And his hero just became the biggest villain in all of history.Alex: Nowwe get to the next part when Doctor Manhattan shows up. And this to me isfascinating. This gets back to something that we talked about with the lastissue with Ozymandias, which is that frankly, he’s actually been improvising alot. He hasn’t really had these well laid plans. And this point where DoctorManhattan shows up, there’s a point where you’re just like, maybe he’s going toturn back, we’ll see what happens.Alex: Andas soon as he does not, Adrian Veidt goes into, oh shit mode, where he justhave to throw everything at him because he’s not sure anything will work.That’s one thing going on, the other thing that’s really-Justin: Wait,but on that-Alex: Yeahplease.Justin: …on that though, it’s funny that he has this very, years long plan that he came,he put together, and then his plan to beat Doctor Manhattan was like, I hope hefollows my cat down this hallway. And then turns on the thing. He’s definitelynot as great, much like Doctor Manhattan, Adrian Veidt is also not all he’scracked up to be. It’s just what he thinks about himself, and where we go alongwith it. And I think that’s why so many people take the wrong lessons fromthis. They’re like that character is confident. He must be right and he’s justa human like anybody else, both these guys.Pete: Hejust really believes in himself and his evil plan.Alex: Alittle detail that I really like a lot, that again talking about Laurie’shumanity and her connection to humanity, is she is carrying a bag the entiretime, which I believe she took from the wreckage of Manhattan and what she’staking, is she’s taking a literal baggage with her as she travels down to thesuperhero confrontation, where everybody else is playing their games andblowing each other up in the hallways, and fighting, but she’s the only onethat really knows and understands what’s happened in the world, and she’sbringing all of that with her.Alex: Sheis essentially, the way I took it is, taking justice for the world along withher and obviously it doesn’t work out in the long run, but that’s theindication I took from that bag.Justin: Shehas sort of a Pandora role in this where she’s sort of maintaining the hope andall these people and sort of keeping everything going. Maybe that’s why she hasa little Pandora’s bag.Alex: Theother thing that’s neat that happens is, we get a double sequence almost thatis laid out almost exactly the same way, where Doctor Manhattan is walking upto the fortress, and he says, “I’m sorry, these tacky ons there’s bundlingthings up. I’d better follow him inside.” But, he’s actually saying thatlater when he is following Adrian Veidt on the next page.Alex: It’sparallel panels, they’re in the same exact position on both pages, but he’sactually saying that to Nite Owl, the exact same phrase. And that happens acouple of times. This is just so great, just in terms of layout, just in termsof pacing and everything, it’s very neat.Justin: Andthe way that he’s in the same, and maybe you just said this, same position andyou can swap Nite Owl and Laurie, they’re in the exact same spots if you flipquickly back and forth, very cool.Alex: Andthe other thing that happens here is very briefly, you can see he’s put Lauriein a protective bubble, which makes sense because she’s in Antarctica, andshe’s not wearing pants, but as soon as he disappears, he completely forgetsabout her. She is left alone to walk through Antarctica without the protectivebubble, and as to walk in, again, total asshole.Justin: Yeah,not cool dude. Keep your force field-Alex: Speaking.Justin: …up.Alex: Speakingof not cool, you mentioned the hallway earlier, that Ozymandias lures theminto, Ozymandias kills Bubastis, blows him up, very sad. Do you think likeDoctor Manhattan, and like John Ostrom before him, is Bubastis going to be ableto come back as some sort of blue cat? Thanks for tribe again guys.Justin: 100%yes, Alex. I think that cat is who we’re going to really focus a lot on in theWatchmen TV show.Pete: Ohman. I hope so.Justin: Lotof time traveling cat.Pete: Ireally felt like the cat was underused in the comic and I hope we do get moreof it in the next series.Alex: Doyou think there’s a possibility, we’ve only seen a trailer for it so far, butin the Cats movie at the end, they’re going to turn and say, by the way, thiswas Watchmen?Pete: Wow.Justin: Yeah.That’s cool. Then Bubastis goes to the cats universe, cinematic universe.Alex: Bubastiswould fit right in with old Deuteronomy and Trash, Trash face well I don’tknow.Justin: Ithink a lot of the cats are named Trash. It’s a common name.Alex: Let’sjump over to the bullet catching sequence. Laurie is sobbing, she comes onOzymandias after he’s blow up Doctor Manhattan and Bubastis and she says,“Veidt, you’re an asshole,” and she shoots him and he bleeds. Now howdo you read the sequence? Because the way that I took it, is he does catch thebullet, but true to form, he also gets very hurt at the same time. That’s whatI-Justin: Yes,I think so. I think he caught it in his hand, and his hand got bloody from thebullet.Alex: Yeah.Which points to that he’s very athletic, he is very smart, but he’s notactually superhuman, same as we’ve been talking about all along.Justin: That’swhat I’m saying. Unless that’s bean juice.Alex: Whatdo you think Pete is it bean juice?Pete: Idon’t know, it could be capsules that he has, for the show but… I mean,that’s, this to me it was such a 80’s kind of moment where you have the karatemove that saves the day when he catches the bullet. But it just makes me madthat it’s like Laurie, shoot ,it bothers me when people… if you want to dosomething, do it, don’t talk beforehand to give up, somebody a chance to turn aroundand get in their karate stance. Shoot [crosstalk to, you have a chance to use a cool line, use that cool line.Justin: Iagree completely. I’m just going to drop the line if I have a second.Alex: What’syour line going to be Justin?Justin: It’dbe like, am I pointing this in the right direction or what? And then I’m goingto[crosstalk Alex: Timeto get loaded-Pete: Oh,man.Alex: …because forgot to load my gun with bullets and then the guy shoots me.Justin: Yeah,that’s good. I’m going to say guns make me uncomfortable, and then pull thetrigger. Or maybe not.Alex: That’sa cool line. These are all very cool lines. Pete, do you have a cool lineyou’re going to say?Pete: Yeah,I would shoot a bunch. And then as they were dying I would just be like, fuckyou guys.Justin: Ohwow. You’d say afterwards, fuck you guys?Pete: Yeah.Justin: Butthey wouldn’t hear you Pete?Pete: Theymight get a little bit of it as they’re dying.Justin: Iguess what I would say is like, man, I’m turned on right now, no matter whatI’m doing.Alex: Therewere getting amazing secrets, Doctor Manhattan was not actually blowed up. He’stotally fine and he’s enormous and bashes into the art tactic retreat. I appreciatethe fact that we do not see his enormous blue dick at any point of thesequence, but he does come down to normal size, at which point Adrian Veidtturns on his wall of TVs.Alex: Weget to see exactly what’s happening in the world. And very quickly because ofthe psychic rays that have spread throughout the world. I want to get back tothis in a second, because of threw me a little bit, the squid not only blew upbecause of the psychic rays, but also sent thoughts out to psychics all over theworld, and seeded the story that he had created with all of these writers. Andultimately, again, in a very short period of time, Russia and the United Statescease hostilities.Alex: Theydecided to work together against this extra directional threat, and we end witha panel of Ozymandias standing in front of the Alexander painting inessentially a spotlight saying, “I did it,” like he’s five years old.The psychics thing threw me a little bit because we’ve talked about how DoctorManhattan is really the only superhero in this world, but this seems toestablish that there are people with other extra normal powers in the world ofWatchmen, how did you take it?Justin: Yeah,I mean, he does. I mean, he says he, the way he got the psychic wave to comeout of the squid was by getting a psychics brain, and there’re people out therewho are sensitive to it. I also think maybe Alan Moore just believes that?Pete: Yeah,when he does comic cons, I’m always hearing him talking about how psychics, hebelieves psychics are real, and he was like, this is, just proves my point.Alex: Yeah.And you mean when he does Comic Cons and also when we all hang out, and getsome PSLs or whatever?Pete: Yup,Alex: Becausehe’s one of the co-hosts of the show.Justin: Yes,we do that.Alex: He’sback, hey Alan-Justin: Onceagain, that was me.Alex: Ohman.Justin: Idon’t think it’s go by the, you said PSL, meaning Pumpkin Spice Latte and noone’s going to be like, Alex, don’t bring that shit into our house.Pete: Ithought you meant to say like PSP or something.Alex: No,no, no. I meant to say PSLs they’re back man. They’re back. It’s October.Justin: Ithought you meant PCP, which is what we usually take, when we’re all hangingout.Pete: Yeah.We take-Alex: Iusually have a PSPCP, which is Pumpkin Spice PCP.Pete: Ohman, they don’t make that.Justin: Nothey do. It’s very boutique.Alex: Let’stalk about this panel though. This Ozymandias panel where he does the, SteveHoltz raises up his hands and says, I did it again. What do you take away fromthat? I know I’ve been saying that phrase a lot this episode, but it’s such adifferent reaction than we expect from Ozymandias.Justin: Ithink it points to how he wouldn’t arrested development like boy man he is,despite the fact that he’s winning… this is what I was talking about beforewhere I think Alan Moore is subtly criticizing comic books, this man, heaccomplishes his goal, which was horrifying to the world. He did save theworld, maybe, maybe not. And his response is a child’s response to a soarscoring, a soccer goal. For all of his smarts, he’s still just a big old stackof testosterone.Pete: Butwhat’s weird is that him doing that stops Doctor Manhattan in his tracks. Hewas the giant monster, was going to grab him, squeeze his head and kill him,and then all of a sudden he yells, I did it like a five year old, and then allof a sudden everybody just gives up, walks away.Alex: Well,I want to talk about this next page as well, it’s very tied to that and whatyou’re saying Pete, because this really threw me this page. This is the pagewhere everybody, Adrian Veidt lays it out. He says, hey, I did it. I saved theworld. Everybody’s working together.Alex: Whatdo you think? Is it worse to let everybody know this is what it is andhostilities, resume in the world probably gets destroyed or I already did it, Ialready killed millions of people and now the world is at peace. Why don’t wejust go with that? And we get a series of panels where first Doctor Manhattan,then Laurie, then Nite Owl have two speech bubbles each. Two to three speechbubbles each, where the first one is always, this is terrible. Why did he dothis? This is so bad.Alex: Andthe second one in the same panel is, you know what? It’s okay, I think we’regoing to go with this, that ends in Rorschach in one bubble saying joking, ofcourse, at which point he walks out, but this is, I think the first speechbubbles structure thing that I’ve noticed in this book. What did you take awayfrom the sequence? What were your thoughts on it? Because again, I wassurprised that they rattled through these decisions so quickly.Pete: Iwas very surprised by that. But also just like, he’s, everybody wants to killhim, then he turns on a couple of TVs and everybody… and he goes, I did it.And then everybody’s cool with it. We’re going to talk? Five seconds ago, yourhand was crashing through a building to kill this guy. And now we’re justlistening to him and pondering him and being like, you know what guys? Has gotsome points. He just tried to kill you a couple of seconds ago and ow we’rejust talking shit out and it’s very upsetting.Justin: Doyou think Adrian Veidt was right for what he did? If it was true that the worldwas about to be blown up in nuclear warfare, did he do the right thing?Pete: Youdon’t know if that’s true or not though.Justin: Right,but I’m telling you, given those factors, did he do the right thing bysacrificing, a million people in New York City, or it’s four million people inNew York city, and The Comedian sacrificing them to save the rest of the world?Alex: No,but like, which four million people in New York City?Pete: That’sfucked up.Justin: Itwas the four million worst New Yorkers. I mean, they were in Times Square.Pete: Comeon man.Alex: Somostly tourists and Elmos.Justin: Alot of dead Elmos out there.Alex: Ohman.Justin: Sorry.I know that’s horrible to all of the Elmo fans out there, but honestly like, doyou think he did the right thing?Alex: Iwill say… Yeah. I mean, that’s the main question of this issue, right?Justin: Yeah.Alex: Is,I think there’s a difference though between, was he right to do what he did,versus now that he did what he did, do you expose him or go along with hisplan? And what-Justin: Wellbut I think the fundamental question, I mean, if I think they go along with itbecause they believe in the pragmatists argument that like, he did do the rightthing, or did that what he did is tolerable because of what he’s, how he savedthe world.Alex: Right.I think it’s the latter there. I think he already did it. They can’t undo it.They can’t bring those millions of people back to life or anything like that.Yes. What Pete?Pete: DoctorManhattan was talking about time travel and he has time traveled, why couldn’the go back and stop this guy?Justin: BecauseI think he thinks it was right and in this panel, he’s like this, no he did itand the world is a better place for it.Alex: Yeah.I do want to mention, I said something wrong actually, on the speech bubble thing,Doctor Manhattan in his panel, has two leaked speech bubbles that basicallysay, no, you argued on Mars, Laurie, that we should save life. Ultimately, theequation balances out to more life the way that Adrian Veidt did it.Alex: Andit’s only Laurie and Dan who have the two separated speech bubbles, whereLaurie says, “Never tell anyone” would we really have to buy this.And then she says, “Jesus, he was right. All we did was failed to stop himsaving earth. Jesus” Nite Owl basically does the same thing. And thenRorschach has his one panel joking of course, that’s it.Alex: Toanswer your question though, he’s absolutely wrong. Adrian Veidt, I, from myperspective, no. There is no sacrifice of life as right, but there is a part ofme that understands the thought of he already did it. If you expose him, it’sonly going to make things worse again.Justin: Interesting.You like the passive argument of just being like, well, I may as well not saysomething and go along with it. You’re saying he’s wrong because he wasn’t surethat it would actually be the end of the world.Alex: Ithink that’s part of it. I think also there’s no scenario where killingmillions of people is the right decision to go?Justin: Well,I mean this is a direct sort of extension of the end of World War II, droppingthe nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I think. Those questions are themost difficult ones for all of history. But it’s tough.Alex: Well,I think I-Pete: Idon’t think he should be able to play God, I wouldn’t go along with it. That’swhy I like Rorschach, Rorschach’s the only one who’s like, fuck this shit, I’mout.Justin: Butthen he ends up being killed.Pete: Well,fine. Sometimes you got to die for what you believe in, but it’s bullshit thathe gets to do this and he gets a profit off it, and he gets to live like aKing, off the fact that he was just, I’m just going to kill a bunch of peopleand blame it on a squid.Justin: ButI think…Alex: Firstof all, never blame anything on a squid. I just want to-Justin: Exceptfor how good the Calamari is, you can blame the squid for that.Alex: Blamethe script for that. Man, you’re too delicious, buddy. I can’t stop eating you.Justin: Justhad to eat you, and dip you in some sweet chili sauce.Pete: Oh,man. No man,Alex: Whatabout you, Justin? You mentioned Hiroshima and I think that’s very app, giventhat we’ve see the Hiroshima lovers sprinkled throughout the entirety of thiscomic book, for whatever reason, that didn’t occur to me, but I think you’re100% of the buddy there, in terms of that being the metaphor they’re talkingabout, because yeah, I think what I potentially would say they’re leaving withis here, is that there’s always going to be that collateral damage.Alex: There’salways going to be those innocents who suffer even though you think you’remaking the right decision for the world. And then the question becomes, do youdo what’s right for the world? Or do you do what’s right for the individual?And that’s what I think Rorschach choice comes down to, you in a weird way, AndPete, I know you’re going to yell at me of this, but I think Rorschach’sdecision is selfish.Pete: Ohfuck you man.Alex: No,I’m not saying I disagree with him. I’m just saying he is making the selfishdecision to say, “I’m going to do what is morally right for me, notnecessarily what more is morally right for the world.”Pete: Youdon’t know if that’s why he’s doing it. I think he thinks truth is what heneeds to, put the truth out there, justice must be served, that kind of thing.Alex: Butwho is he doing that for?Pete: Forall the people who died because he was wanted to go launch the squid at NewYork City.Alex: Iguess I could see that potentially.Justin: Butif that results in the world than going back and being blown up, is that theright choice?Pete: Idon’t know, man. If you ask somebody whose mom got blown up in New York City,they’re like, well, we did it for the right, for everybody as a whole becausemaybe a war would have broke out and maybe the retaliation would have been…there’s a lot of maybes man, that guy’s [crosstalk Justin: Andhow about this? There are plenty of times in our lives where we don’t speakharsh truths, because we’re trying to make the life easier for us and everyonearound us. You don’t see someone with one eye on the street and say, “Mostpeople have two eyes because you’re like…” it’s a truth that doesn’tneed to be pointed out to that person. And that to extend that all the way outto this, at this point, to Alex’s point, they accept what’s happened. Theybelieve that-Pete: That’swhy you can travel in time. You shouldn’t accept what happened-Alex: Hecan travel in time.Justin: Hecan travel in time.Alex: Hejust exists in every time simultaneously.Justin: He’saware of what’s happening all the time.Pete: Maybehis blue smart ass and figure some out man.Alex: Damn,he’s coming for you man. Doctor Manhattan is coming for you.Pete: FuckDoctor Manhattan.Alex: Alsoon the plus side, I would say, that guy whose mom died in the Manhattan squidaccident, he’s still got some nice [galmad about?Justin: That’sright. They’re going to eat for weeks.Alex: ThenAdrian Veidt leaves because he’s like, hey, I’m feeling pretty good about everything.Got some final details. Rorschach walks. Doctor Manhattan disappears and Laurieand Nite Owl left, and we go back to that thing that we talked about earlierwhere they make love by the pool.Alex: Reallyif anything, I think this is just to give us that thing that you were hintingat earlier, Justin, which is we end with them by the pool. It’s a reflection ofthem and the pool. Just their shadows laid out exactly like the Hiroshimalovers. They are the thing that are left behind. That’s it. I think it’s just aset up for that.Justin: Yeah.And they’re doing the very human thing of connecting and then having sex.Pete: Sure,sure.Alex: Which-Pete: Rightafter-Alex: We’regoing to do at the end of this podcast, right? What? Sorry Pete?Pete: Yeah,definitely, definitely.Alex: Cool.Pete: No,I just think that it’s like, it’s not realistic. You just had too much shithappen to you.Justin: Imean maybe, but I do think some people like to fill a gap of, or a trauma upwith some sex.Pete: Allright, all right.Alex: Alsothere’s another interesting thing about the sequence, which is that Lauriepulls off Dan’s mask and earlier the whole thing has been… just to be bluntabout it, he’s only been able to get it up because of the costumes and theheroics and that’s it. He’s been impotent. Otherwise, here they are strippedbare. They have become themselves. They finally can be just Dan and Laurie.They don’t have to be Silk Spectre and Nite Owl anymore.Pete: You’resaying for this guy to get a boner, four million people have to die? Is thatwhat you’re saying?Alex: Yeah,I mean who, let he who is without sin throw the first stone, that’s all I’msaying.Justin: Idon’t know if that applies there Alex, but I like it. That he who’s withoutsin, get the first boner after the disaster.Pete: LikeJesus preached.Justin: Betweenthat panel of the, Dan and Laurie’s shadows on the wall and the next panelthere’s something that resembles that but in a different place. It’s twoseparate pictures or ideas put next to each other. And is there a term that youwould’ve used there, the position of both of those things are interesting?Pete: Yeah,I would call it something beside myselfism or parallels parallels-Justin: Nearatude?Alex: Theducks, ducks to, the Dexter-Justin: Ithink it’s the-Alex: …Dexter’s laboratory. Dexter’s laboratory.Justin: …Dexter’s laboratory. That’s what it. The Justin position of these two images isvery cool.Alex: Youdid point that out. That’s a good name for it.Justin: That’swhat I’m talking about, the brand. Get the brand out there.Alex: Yes.Yes of course it does cut to Rorschach’s mask, it’s, there’s no way of notseeing the Hiroshima lovers in his mask, even though I guess you can seewhatever you want, it is Rorschach plot. And then we get one of the most famoussequences in the book as Rorschach walks outside, Doctor Manhattan approacheshim and says, “Where are you going? He says, “Back to allyship, backto America, evil must be punished.”Alex: Peoplemust be told, Doctor Manhattan says, “Rorschach, you know I can’t let youdo that.” And he says, “Of course must protect Veidt’s new utopia.One more body amongst foundations makes little difference. Well what are youwaiting for? Do it.” This is Rorschach and he takes off his mask andscreams do it. Doctor Manhattan just blast them apart. Leaving his blood,smoking in the snow. And that’s it.Pete: It’sa hell of a way to go out.Alex: Man.We were talking about the last couple of issues how Rorschach and I think weall agree on this, has been regaining his humanity. This to me truly is thepinnacle of that. Him finally taking off the mask, being human, being himself,sobbing, looking directly into the camera and saying do it.Justin: Yeah.I agree with that. The thing that is bothering me about this right now is whyis Doctor Manhattan doing this dirty work? A couple pages later, he’s like, I’mleaving earth behind. I don’t care what happens. I’m going to go make my ownplanet. What does he care whether whatever happens here?Pete: Exactly.Why is he killing dudes on the way out?Justin: Whyisn’t it Adrian Veidt who comes out here and it’s like, come on man.Alex: Idon’t know. There’s a lot of wrap up from Doctor Manhattan over the next coupleof pages, he takes care of Rorschach, he… as we mentioned, looks over Laurieand Dan who are aligning their post-coital, bathes them in blue light, almostlike they’re his children. He walks over water and then he walks through wallsuntil he encounters Adrian.Alex: Theyhave a brief conversation. He drops some info on him… just to throw somethingout here, this is kind of off the top of my head, but certainly there’s a lotof God imagery happening here, right?Alex: Giventhat this is Ozymandias post-tachyons, post squid explosion, post the pointwhen he knew what was going to happen, it’s a new world and he is the God ofthe new world. He is really doing some Old Testament shit here. He’s smitingpeople. He’s looking at Adam and Eve laying in the garden. He’s walking overthe water. He is talking to his acolyte, his Adam and leaving him with somewisdom, potentially, that’s what we’re going for here.Justin: Ithink that’s right. I also think he gets too, way too close to their nakedbodies on that allocate, not necessarily.Pete: I’dalso like to say Zalben, don’t go off script like this. All right. When you go,start making stuff up that are going to [crosstalk Justin: Sorryabout that. Do you just thought of that Alex? It just came to you right then?Alex: Yeah.Sorry about that. I know for those of you who are listening to the podcast,this might not be immediately clear, but, Pete spends usually 60 hours a weekscripting out our podcasts for us. These are not improvised in any way,including what I’m saying right now. It’s kind of amazing that pea, it actuallyscripted this part about us being unscripted when I just went off script-Pete: I’ma good writer.Alex: Yeah,you’re an amazing writer. I apologize for doing that. You’re really, I wouldsay Pete, the Doctor Manhattan of this podcast.Pete: Hey,fuck you, man.Alex: No,no, no, no. I’m just saying because you’re a d-Pete: Comeon of all the characters, you’re going to…Alex: …you’re just a dick, let’s just tag it out. That’s why-Pete: …man you’re an asshole.Justin: Sorry,line? Pete could you give me my line? No. Pete, if anything, you’re theOzymandias of this podcast.Pete: Man.Alex: Whatdo you want to be? What do you want to be in this podcast Pete?Pete: Iwan to be-Alex: TheRorschach?Pete: …Rorschach. Yup.Alex: Allright, we’ll blast you. Apart at the end of this.Justin: Exactly.When this podcast ends-Pete: It’sthe only way to die, man.Justin: …you dead Pete. To be exploded-Alex: Here’sthe thing though. The thin though is, nothing ends, nothing ever ends.Justin: Ohboy.Alex: Youknow what I’m saying?Pete: Ihope this podcast ends at some point.Justin: Ohshit.Alex: No,it’s not.Justin: It’shappens [crosstalk Alex: It’sgoing to go on for hours at this point. I do want to ask about this sequencethough. As Doctor Manhattan walks up to Adrian Veidt he walks into the middleof, I think it’s a bottle of an atom, which would probably make sense forDoctor Manhattan and then [crosstalk Justin: Also.Alex: Thesolar system, and he says, “John, wait, before you leave, I did the rightthing, didn’t I? It all worked out in the end.” And Doctor Manhattan says,“In the end? Nothing ends Adrian, nothing ever ends.” He says,“John, wait, what do you mean by… and Doctor Manhattan disappears. Whatdid he mean by that? What did he mean by nothing ever ends?Justin: Imean, this whole sequence is interesting because the panel right after that, toadd it to what we’re talking about, Adrian Veidt is looking, he’s positionedaway from the camera. His shadow is looming in front of him, and he looksashamed or scared about what has just happened.Pete: I’mreally surprised. You don’t know what he means by that. This is a plug for theNever Ending Story, which is a movie that came out very soon after this.Alex: Oh,right. It’s a tease.Justin: Anotherproduct tie in from Allen wild wings Moore.Alex: Yeah,it makes sense then. That explains why Falcor shows up on the next page.Justin: Yeah.I-Alex: I,go ahead Justin.Justin: …I think what he’s saying is, first off he’s brushing him back and saying like,did I do the right thing? He’s like, come on man, grow up. I thought we werebeyond these human concerns because I do think these two characters in this issueare like, we’re bros, we make big decisions. Cool what you did, you got best ofme, and this is Doctor Manhattan and then one last moment being like, I’m stilla god. I know that nothing ever ends, because I see beyond you. You’re, at theend of the day, you’re just a human. Hey, great job on this plan. Great gameout there, but I’m a god.Alex: Yeah,I think that may make sense. It also points to, again, like a five page beyondtease, but it teases what happens at the end of the issue, which is even thoughwe’re getting to the end of the comic book, comics continue stories continue.They can continue beyond something that I do want to touch on in a couple ofpages here. But I think that’s also what he’s setting up than it is Alan Moorebeing metatextual here as well.Justin: Yeah,and also this story doesn’t end. Maybe Doctor Manhattan has seen that vortexjournal will eventually come out and like this is far from over for you,Ozymandias.Alex: Thenwe get into the next sequence, which we’ve already talked about quite a bit.Where Laurie and Dan show up at Sally Jupiter’s place. They’re sporting newhairdoes new looks. Dan has a very terrible mustache on, nothing wrong withmustaches in general, but he has a very bad mustache, I would say. And we get thatkiss on the photograph that we talked about earlier, that complicated kiss.Anything further to say about the sequence though?Justin: Imean, just looking at it, she, it’s not like she’s sweetly kissing that photo.She’s upset and we see in the foreground in the last look at it, like thelipstick on the picture and she’s like sobbing. I do think at the very least,this is a very complicated moment, and not a like expression of like, you knowwhat? I guess I do love the man who assaulted me.Alex: Yeah.The other thing that I will mention that I forgot about that happens rightbefore this is as Dan and Laurie are walking off, they talk about, hey, youknow what? Maybe we should be mass vigilantes again, and Nite Owl sorry, Dansays, Nite Owl and Silk Spectre sounds neat. And she says, Silk Spectre’s toogirly, plus I want a much better costume that protects me.Alex: Maybesomething with leather with a mask over my face. Also maybe I ought to carry agun, which cuts to then [shoot It’s very clear. She’s talking about The comedian’s costume. That’s what hewore, leather, a face mask, carried a gun. To the point that you were bringingup earlier, Pete, I think Laurie’s journey, you could say over the course of thiscomic book, is going from being inspired by almost the worst aspects of hermother, to being inspired by the best aspects of her father. I don’t know.Pete: Ohman, that’s weird. That’s a weird thing. I don’t know how I feel about that,man. I mean, when I write it and then rewrite it, I didn’t know that. She waslike, yeah, I want to carry, I think she wants to carry a gun because it’s afucked up world. I don’t know if she was trying to be The Comedian, but that’sone way to look at it.Alex: Yeah.I mean there’s the thing from the riots, right after the bombs are dropped inthe Vietnam war [crosstalk Pete: No,no. Community in [inaudible Alex: Allright, well then we get the last couple of pages. We see a headline that saysRR to run in ’88, which is Robert Redford running for president, one world, oneaccord, we see the millennium perfume.Justin: Inthe panel above. We see burgers in borscht. Russian stuff is cool in New YorkCity, obviously. I thought it’s interesting, in the next panel we have watchthe skies rather than who watches the Watchmen on graffiti down the wall.Alex: Everythinghas changed and we see two people who did survive the massacre in New York arethe nebbishy assistant and the head of the conspiracy newspaper, he’s prettypissed off. They’ve got to fill some stuff, but nobody wants to piss off theRussians anymore because there’s the tentative peace. And you talkedextensively about this, a couple of episodes back, Justin, but this dude iswearing The Comedian’s button on his shirt.Alex: He’stold to get something from the crazy pile and he goes and immediatelypotentially reaches for Rorschach’s journal and says, “I leave it entirelyin your hands.” And there’s so many things going on at that one panel.It’s such a lovely last panel.Justin: It’sgreat. It’s so smart nice little twist to the knife at the end.Pete: Butit’s just-Justin: Ormaybe he just reached over the journal and grabbed a letter that said Elvis ismy dad. And that’s what changes the world.Pete: Itis just a smiley face t-shirt that he spills ketchup on, it’s not like he wentout and bought a Watchmen t-shirt. But I think that-Alex: It’sagain, Alan Moore all about that product placement. You know what I’m talking about?Justin: Yeah.That Alan Moore special gloppy ketchup that he sells on the side?Pete: Dude,that ketchup is good though.Justin: Yeah.Alex: Itis very good.Pete: [crosstalkAlex: Thecouple of things that I take away fore going the panel one, it’s The Comedian’sfinal joke, right? Is that ultimately the journal is there. Two, is he reachingfor the journal? Is he reaching for a letter? That’s up to your interpretationand that last thing, I leave it entirely in your hands, that’s Alan Mooresaying it to the reader, that I leave it up to you, what do you think happensnext? And it’s funny to me to see that ending, given the preciousness that’sbeen over Watchmen over the past several decades, and we’ve certainly talkedabout this quite a bit, but with things like the Watchmen movie with thingslike before Watchman, which is a project that DC comics did, where they toldstories about these characters before the events of Watchmen, and particularlywith the Watchman HBO series, where people have said, “No, Watchmen isthis untouchable masterpiece,” and what I almost take away, and even tothe point where Alan Moore’s like, “You know what? Take my name off ofthis thing. I don’t want to be involved in this.”Alex: Butthis last panel, it’s very clear to me that he’s saying, “Comicscontinue.” That’s the point is that nothing ever ends like DoctorManhattan says earlier. I leave it up to you. If you’re going to continue it,you’re going to tell more of a story, fine. If you’re not going to tell more ofthe story, that’s fine too. Ultimately we’ve said what we need to say in this12 issues and we’re done.Justin: Iagree. He means, I leave it entirely in your hands except for movies,television, other comic books or really anything at all associated with thisthing you just finished reading.Alex: Aslong as it’s mayo chip then it’s fine. Watchmen brand mayo chip. Cool. And thenwe don’t get any back matter here. I have the deluxe version, so there’s somevery deep back matter where there’s development art that Dave Gibbons did, thathe contributed-Justin: Flex.Alex: …here. I’m pretty cool [crosstalk Pete: What’sup big time?Alex: Buthonestly I definitely recommend picking it up if you can, just because there’salso some French portfolio covers that he did that have all the individualcharacters on the cover. There’s nothing too shocking in here but it’s justgreat to see the additional information and everything. Before we wrap this up,we’ve certainly talked quite a long time about this 12th issue here. Any finalthoughts on Watchmen, the comic book? Pete?Justin: Goahead.Pete: Imean it’s an insane story that takes people places and really rips and tears atyour questioning of life. And what we’re supposed to be doing, it’s a powerfulpiece and it’s really well done.Alex: Justin,what about you?Justin: Imean it’s very similar, Pete, this is like, there’s a reason this comic is heldup as the best comic or the ultimate holy grail of the comic book industry. AndI think we could talk about this forever. There’s so much depth to it, so muchcomplexity. A lot of people read this being like, this is a great superheroteam and this is so far from what they actually are, they’re just a bunch ofcomplicated, messed up characters who, heroes and villains and the line betweenhero and villain is blurred throughout this whole series.Justin: It’sgreat. I always recommend reading this only after you’ve read many years ofother kinds of things.Alex: Yeah,that was the thing I was going to say to you, just to bring it back to what wementioned in our preview episode, in the first episode, just to, really wrapthis up, but don’t read it first. But I’m so happy we’ve read it again, becauseit’s a good book just beyond the density, beyond the weight of it, that it’shad in comic book culture. It’s a fun book to read. It’s a good story. It’swell drawn, it’s well colored. And it’s an entertaining mystery throughout.That to me has been the big thing that I’ve taken away from it. Is I feel Ihave a better appreciation of it, not just on a textual level, but just also onan entertainment level, that it’s the sort of thing you can recommend to peopleas, hey, this is something you can take a lot away from, or a little away frombut, at the same time you’re going to get something from it.Alex: Nowa little order of business before we move on, starting next episode, we’regoing to move to once a week for our episodes. We’re going to be recappingepisodes of the HBO show, those air Sundays on HBO, so our episodes recappingand breaking down those episodes, will go up a little later in the week. Staytuned for that, versus the twice a week schedule we’ve been doing it for thecomic book.Alex: But that said for any information on that and when that’s coming up, you can check us out at Watchmen Watch Podcast on either Instagram or Facebook. You can also do Watchmen Watch1 on Twitter, patreon.com/comicbookclub to support this show and many more. And please do, if you can chip in a couple of bucks to do things like transcripts, et cetera, cost a little bit of money. We really appreciate the support.Alex: Pluswe’ve been having, as we mentioned at the beginning of this episode, some greatdiscussions about Watchmen in our Watchmen watch room on our patriot and on theslack, we would love to have you join there. That would be awesome. We also doa live show every Tuesday night at in New York. Come on down, we’ll chat with you about Watchmen and other things.And remember, we taped this episode 35 minutes ago.Justin: AndI’m Alan Moore singing off.Alex: Hecame back.The post Watchmen Watch: Issue #12, “A Strong And Loving World” appeared first on Comic Book Club.Support the show: https://www.patreon.com/comicbookclubAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy
