It’s time to get the band back together as Dan and Laurie enact their plan to break Rorschach out of prison. Meanwhile, Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons’ Watchmen #8, “Old Ghosts,” serves as an overture to the rest of the series, layering in bits of the mystery and taking one major character off the board, permanently. Plus, are superheroes full of piss? We discuss.SUBSCRIBE TO WATCHMEN WATCH ON ITUNES, ANDROID, SPOTIFY, STITCHER, OR RSS. FOLLOW US ON TWITTER, INSTAGRAM AND FACEBOOK. SUPPORT OUR SHOWS ON PATREON.The theme music for Watchmen Watch was written and performed by Jeff Solomon.Plus, here’s a transcript of the episode for you to read through as you listen:Alex:                         Welcometo Watchman Watch Podcast about Watchmen where we watch Watchmen. You watchWatchmen. We all watch Watchmen. I’m Alex.Justin:                     I’mJustin.Alex:                         Andwe are going to be talking about Chapter 8 of Watchmen: Old Ghosts, as wecontinue our walk through Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons classic comic book seriesleading up to the premier of HBO’s Watchmen on October 20th. Speaking of which,I think you were away last week, Justin. You were traveling across country withour co-host, Alan Moore. And, then, this week, Pete’s gone and Alan’s gone.What’s going on?Justin:                     I’msad to say we … So we drove all the way across country out to LA for akaraoke contest. We got all set. We were both super excited. He was gregarious,just like giggling, super happy.Alex:                         Iknow Alan. You don’t need to describe that.Justin:                     Yeah,exactly. This real giggle monster. Putting his name on stuff as opposed to theother. And our song is, Paradise by the Dashboard Light, obviously, by MeatLoaf.Alex:                         Sure.Justin:                     And,unfortunately, we both wanted to sing the woman part.Alex:                         Okay.Justin:                     Andwe had to split up over creative differences.Alex:                         Oh,no. So what’s going on? Where’s Pete? Is Pete off-Justin:                     Pete’sout there doing the male part. Alan flew him in. He’s got all that Watchmencache. So he flew Pete in to just do the guy part.Alex:                         Yeah.I mean, if there’s one thing I know about Alan, he’s always willing to put outhis own money for other people. He’s very into … He’s always dropping … andit’s honestly a little annoying … “You guys know I’m the author ofWatchmen. And I’ve got a lot of money because of that.”Justin:                     Yeah.And he’s like, “This round’s on me. Everybody drinks on Watchmen” iswhat he’s always saying.Alex:                         Mm-hmm(affirmative). The other day we were hanging out and he started stuffing dollarbills in my G-string. And I was like, “I’m not wearing a G-string, Alan.You’re just stuffing dollar bills down my pants.Justin:                     Yes.Though I will say those are very, very short pants, to be mistaken.Alex:                         I’mcomfortable.Justin:                     Yeah.No, it’s good. Those are the smallest jorts I’ve seen in quite some time.Alex:                         Thankyou. I really appreciate that. Let’s jump in and talk about Old Ghosts. Now, Iwill mention that Pete did tell me about this issue. He’s very bummed to not behere to talk about this issue. Of course, this is the big prison breakoutissue. A lot of Rorschach stuff going on. He’s very into it. This is … Ibelieve he said his favorite issue in the run.Justin:                     Really?Oh, that’s interesting.Alex:                         Yeah.How do you feel about it, Justin?Justin:                     Well,this is the issue where sort of all the gears are coming together. All thedisparate stories and characters are … sort of the squad is forming withDoctor Manhattan appearing. Nite Owl and Silk Specter II, their relationship isgoing strong. They’re fighting crime. They rescue Rorschach. Rorschach’s sortof world view is expanded to almost all of us to including Nite Owl, the NewFrontiersman as we learn here. We get a sort of inside look at that. And we’reall starting to sort of believe Rorschach.Alex:                         Yeah.I did want to talk about that a bit. And this is certainly jumping right intothe middle of the issue as well as the back matter of the issue. But we’vetalked a lot on the podcast about Rorschach’s worldview, how it was differentback in 1986 when this was published versus 2019 when we’re viewing it now. Buteven through that lens, the New Frontiersman, which Rorschach read religiously,read it every single day as we know, man, that’s an anti-Semitic paper straightup. What do you think it means? This is the thing that I was wrestling,particularly reading the back matter because we get to see the staff of the NewFrontiersman putting together their paper. And then we read a snippet of thedummy version of that paper. That they are both anti-Semitic, racist andterrible, but also, closer to the truth than anybody else, what do you thinkthat means?Justin:                     Ithink it’s confusing. A couple things … I think it’s, like I was saying, it’smeant to be sort of a larger reflection of Rorschach’s conspiracy-mindedthinking. I think, if I was thinking as a writer of this, I think it’s saying,“Hey, even these outlandish things are sometimes correct. And even thedisgusting wrapper.” I’m assuming Alan Moore is not a racist, anti-Semite.I think he was trying to say, “Even this disgusting package, sometimesgets it right. A stop clock is right twice a day.” I think that fits witha lot of the clock imagery we have here. That’s the way, sort of the charitableway I can say it.Justin:                     Theuncharitable thing is back then in the ’80s, there were these zines and smallpublications that had these bad ideas and put them out in the world and had asmall group of followers. And, literally, because of the Internet, that is whyour politics are sort of so messed up because you have these far-right newssources that have moved into the mainstream. I feel like that’s a lot of whatthe Watchmen series is going to be getting into … the websites like Breitbartand Daily Wire, I feel like the modern translation of all this stuff, and theyhave affected our politics in a huge way.Alex:                         Well,to get even deeper down this well, and we’re certainly going to be probablydigging ourselves a grave with a certain section of the audience I think, butthere’s a running theme through this entire comic that the outside people, thepeople who are the deviants, the people that are removed from society, like TheComedian, like Rorschach, like the New Frontiersman, they’re the only ones thatreally see things for how they truly are. Versus Dan and Laurie for the mostpart, they’re willing to just cruise in their lives. They’re just sort of doingtheir thing. They’re going along, they’re ignoring everything. The regularpeople are barely involved at all. They’re just sort of following along whateverybody else is telling them to do. And, ultimately, that’s Adrian Veidt’splan is … He believes, “Well, if I tell people it’s this thing, they’regoing to believe it.”Alex:                         Soit’s a very cynical, very nihilistic view of the way the world works. And thereason I said digging a well, is I think one of the very bad influences that’scome out of Watchmen and seeped into comics and pop culture is this idea thatif you do stand outside of society, you were the person that is always right.We’ve talked about it at our other podcasts about Joker. And certainly, wehaven’t seen the movie. I think by the time this episode comes out, the moviewill just be out in theaters. But that seems to be saying the same sort ofthing where it’s this cynical darkness, this outsider who truly is the personwho sees society for the grimy, bad that it usually is, and the rest of thenormies, like us, like you and me, frankly, are just kind of trucking along. ButI don’t think society is as simple as that, frankly.Justin:                     No.And even in this book, I think … a lot of people, like we were saying, andPete even really reads into Rorschach as the hero or as the person that you’remeant to identify with … and I don’t know. I think it’s pretty even-handed. Ithink the mystery, the fact that it lines up with Rorschach’s conspiracytheories makes it naturally feel like it’s from his point of view. But hesuffers through so much of this. And in the end, he doesn’t unravel themystery. The mystery sort of comes for the heroes. And they get drawn in byAdrian Veidt as we will read eventually. And Rorschach loses. So to me, itfeels like … I don’t know … it’s not like we are … That’s is the wronglesson to take from this, that Rorschach is right the whole time and conspiracytheories are meant to be believed.Alex:                         Well,I think part of that is they’re not offering a solution, right? They’repointing out the ills of society. They’re pointing out this corruption, this death,this rot that is at the base of everything. But all they’re really saying is,“See, this is bad” versus … Clearly, Adrian Veidt’s solution isn’tgood. Just trucking along and ignoring things isn’t good. But not coming upwith an out for that is also not necessarily good. Not figuring out a wayforward. And, ultimately, what I think they’re pointing out is … Well, one ofthe things that Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons are pointing out is that society isbroken. There is this rot under it. There is, through the government, throughour art, through our entertainment, through our everyday revelationships, theyare broken.Alex:                         Butit’s more holding up this mirror to this thing and saying, “Here,see.” Like the New Frontiersman does, though obviously at a very extreme,very broad way. And, then, ultimately it is up to the viewer to talk aboutthis. And to reflect on it and think about what they, themselves, are going todo.Justin:                     So,then, who are we? We’re the pirate on a raft of dead bodies?Alex:                         Well,I think we talked about how Rorschach is the pirate, right? I don’t know who weare in this comic.Justin:                     Well,I would think the way that we see the curse of the Black Freighter through thereader who … We see the comic book page in panel a lot. I feel like that’smeant to be just a device to get us into that story. And we are, then, thatperson suffering. Our lives are like long and tortuous. We have these goals.And we’re always two steps away from them. And we sacrifice so much to get whatwe want. And, then, it’s horrifying in the end.Alex:                         Well,if anything … I’ll just throw this out there, and this is a very unformedopinion … but, if anything, maybe we’re Doctor Manhattan in a certain way. We… I mean, you mentioned the kid who’s reading the comic by the newsstand. Andwe get to see him again this issue. We’re him, and in a way, he’s DoctorManhattan who is able to experience all these things simultaneously in whateverorder he wants. It’s the same thing with us as the comic reader, right? We’relooking at all these different panels. You can visually look at the full pagewhere you see nine panels at the same time. Or you can choose to focus in onone panel. Or you can choose to focus in on multiple panels. Certainly, Gibbonsis offering us a way of walking through it and a way of looking through it. Butit’s up to us if we decide we want to flip five pages ahead or go back a coupleof pages. That’s how we do it.Justin:                     Yeah,that’s cool. I’ve always thought of Doctor Manhattan as the author, though.Alex:                         Mm-hmm(affirmative).Justin:                     Sortof for the same reason, it’s the further outside perspective where the authoris deciding. It knows the whole story and it’s deciding the order in which weget to read it.Alex:                         Now,one other thing I’ll throw out at you. And this might be old news by the timewe post this episode. We tape these a little while in advance. There was anarticle that came out about a week ago, our time. In EW, there was an interviewwith Damon Lindelof where he was talking about the HBO version of Watchmen. Andthere was a bit of an uproar online because he said that the TV show wouldn’tmoralize. And people got very upset. They said, “Oh, what are you talkingabout?” “Oh, great, this doesn’t seem true to the spirit of Watchmen.”Alex:                         ButI would say based on our discussion right now, I think what Watchmen doesn’t doand what it does particularly in this issue is it doesn’t moralize, it presentsyou with moral situations. And then leaves it up to you, the reader, to decidehow to react to them.Justin:                     Yeah.Yeah, I think so. And it’s pretty even-handed like we’re not meant to …that’s why I think so many people are like, “Who’s the hero ofWatchmen?” It’s hard to say. If it was more moralized, you’d be like,“Oh, it’s obviously Nite Owl.” Or, “Doctor Manhattan.” Orwhoever. Or “Adrian Veidt,” for that matter. So I do think it’spretty even-handed. When I finished watching it for the first time, I was like,“Man, Ozymandias had that shit figured out.”Alex:                         Youliked him?Justin:                     Well,I think the book’s meant to make you think … Who saved the world? He didalso.Alex:                         Yeah.Justin:                     Rorschachwas, in his own way, his rigid morality … I mean, we’re going to talk aboutthis in a few issues, obviously … killed him and he lost. So, for the sake ofthe world, or the fate of the world, he was a bit of the villain that wastrying to stop Ozymandias from saving the planet from itself.Alex:                         Yeah.Well, this is something we touched on a little bit in the last episode of thepodcast, Pete and I had talked about because the issue was so focused on Danand Laurie. And the same thing happens here. These two issues are the mostsuperhero comic we’ve gotten so far. And I think that’s because Dan and Laurieare the most middle of the road characters. Both of them are kind of verycasual about being heroes. Dan was a billionaire and thought, “Yeah, sure.I could be a superhero. That sounds like fun.” Laurie, as we wererevisiting this issue, only did it because she thought, “Well, my motherdid it, so I guess I should do it as well.”Justin:                     Yeah.Alex:                         Butat the same time, they’re the ones that get the most superhero action. So whenI first read Watchmen, they were the ones that I identified with, that I hookedinto the most because to me, they felt like the most recognizable characters.Justin:                     Yeah,I mean, I agree with that. That was definitely … they were the ones herelike, “Oh, I get this. And I like that they’re hooking up. And maybe inlove, maybe not.” You’re really pulling for Dan, I think, for a lot ofthis where it’s like, “Work it out, dude.”Alex:                         Yeah,you could do it. I think, also, it’s very clearly painting him as a 40year-old, overweight men with glasses is really gunning for the comic readingdemographic where it’s like, “Hey, that’s you. You’re this guy. You couldbe Nite Owl. Get in the ship. Come on.”Justin:                     Yeah.He has a plan for everything. Yeah, that’s true.Alex:                         Yeah.You want to jump into the issue? You want to walk through it?Justin:                     Yeah,let’s walk through it a little bit. So we start with a conversation betweenHollis, the original Nite Owl and Sally Jupiter, the original Silk Specter.This is just some fun nostalgia. I feel like nostalgia’s a big theme in thisissue. It’s Halloween night. There’s a bunch of kids going out for some fun.And, then, to talk about the end of the issue, this bookends the comic, a bunchof people who we see getting all crazed over the course of the issue, go andmurder Hollis in his house as these innocent kids then come to trick or treatwith him. I feel like this is very much the death of nostalgia, the death ofthe old, and the world is different now kind of a take.Alex:                         Yeah.I think that’s fair. The other part of it which we actually haven’t talkedabout at all over the course of the podcast, one of the running things in thebackground that comes to bear this issue is that gang. And the way that Iunderstand that there’s this band … it’s not called … One of the members ofthe band is called, Red Death, which is pretty directly from Masque of the RedDeath, the Edgar Allan Poe story.Alex:                         Butthe gang, I believe, is called the Pale Horsemen, which again, is a sign ofdeath. So they’re running in the background and they finally make a move here.They’ve been sort of passing through things. They have occasionally … gotbeaten up by Dan and Laurie a couple of issues back. And ultimately here, theyend up killing Hollis at least partially because they think that he is DanDreiberg. They think that he is the Nite Owl that broke into the prison andthey want to take revenge on him. There’s a little part of me, and this mightbe not remembering the last couple of issues well, but does wonder if this isanother part of Adrian Veidt’s plan to take people out. But maybe not.Justin:                     Yeah,this feels like, to me, just general society is crumbling because of thepressure of nuclear war, and this is … I think, makes more of the case thatOzymandias’ plan, that we find out later, is right. The society is crumbling.And he needs to rewrite the course of mankind because it’s come to rely onDoctor Manhattan to protect them and solve all their political problems.Alex:                         Yep.But, like you said, it is nice and nicely laid out conversation as well. Ilove, again, the juxtaposition between … and I know I’ve been saying thatword too much … but between the old pictures of Hollis Mason and Nite Owl andSally as Silk Spectre, and them talking about themselves in costume, inparticular. I thought those were just two fun, well-laid out panels. One thingI want to touch on here because this is also part of the bookend, this takesplace mostly on Halloween night. We get to see three trick-or-treaters, wholater discover the dead body of Hollis Mason. A ghost, a devil and a pirate. Ithink the pirate is very clear because we know that pirates are super popularin the way that superheros are super popular. In the real world, ghostscertainly seems to come from old ghosts. And, then, there’s the devil whichalso could tie in death. But what do you take away from these costumes? What doyou take away from it being set on Halloween?Justin:                     Ithink it … Well, I mean costumes, the superheros wearing costumes, I think itall, that all plays pretty directly. Last issue we saw the Nite Owl, he fucksway better when he’s in his costume just like all of us. And I think part of itis innocence wrapped in sort of horrifying things. So much of this issue is theflip of that, horrifying things wrapped up in innocence where you have thesepeople that seem like they’re hanging out and talking to the newsstand peopleand, all of a sudden, they go and murder Hollis. And that juxtaposition of howwe try to put ourselves out there and what is actually lying underneath.Alex:                         Yeah.Well, then we jump over to a sequence set at the newsstand. We get to see thecurse of the Black Freighter comic a little bit more. I think we talked aboutthe cops being the Rosencrantz and Guildenstern. I almost feel like thenewsstand people have taken over that job in this issue a little bit.Justin:                     Definitely,because the cops start to play a more threatening role later on in this issue.So yeah, these are definitely the people on the street. They’re dealing withthe world at large. These are the people in Spider-Man who are like me. Someone’sgot to catch this Green Goblin guy. And then they get buzzed by the sled linepass.Alex:                         Ilike that you think Green Goblin rides a sled. I appreciate that.Justin:                     Well,he rides a little, the air-Alex:                         It’sa glider. It’s a glider. That’s the word.Justin:                     Airsled.Alex:                         Andthen we get a scene with Dan and Laurie where they’re talking about their planto break Rorschach out of prison. Two things that I wanted the call out aboutthis that I thought were so neat. So last issue, the visual motif was all aboutreflections and circles. We kept seeing everything reflected in Nite Owl’sgoggles and Dan’s glasses, in Archie’s windows, or whatever you want to callthem, over and over and over again as we come zooming in and out of that. Andfor the majority of this comic, for the majority of this issue, Dan’s glassesand Nite Owl’s lenses are opaque. Except for when he is confronted by thepolice officer about half way through where suddenly you can see his eyes.Alex:                         AndI thought this was such a neat little thing to show that even now, even whenhe’s dressed as Dan Dreiberg in the scene with Laurie towards the beginning,he’s still Nite Owl. He’s still in costume the entire time. He’s confident. AndDave Gibbons draws him for the first time really, he’s standing up straight.His body language is more confident. It’s such a subtle little thing, but it’sso smart and so clear and so nice.Justin:                     Confidenceis the ultimate costume.Alex:                         Mm-hmm(affirmative). It’s true. That’s why nobody recognizes me when I’m standing upstraight. I’m usually hunched over like a little old witch.Justin:                     That’sright. And that’s why I go to work completely nude every day. Becauseconfidence is the ultimate costume.Alex:                         Hey,man, dress for the job you want. You know what I’m talking about?Justin:                     Yeah.Naked man in public.Alex:                         Yeah,I’ll tell you what. I walk into work just wearing a T-shirt. So far nobody’shired me as Winnie the Pooh. And it’s a real bummer.Justin:                     You’llget that job. Though I guess … What office are you walking into that youthink there’s a Winnie the Pooh position?Alex:                         Iwalk into Duane Reade … Is that where they hire-Justin:                     That’spretty good. There’s a lot of honey there.Alex:                         Thereis. I’m always eating that honey and I’m always getting stuck in their doors.Then after the Dan and Laurie stuff, we jump right into the prison stuff withRorschach. We get to see him very stoically sitting in his prison cell. He’sjust waiting for something to happen. Meanwhile, a bunch of criminals, somebodythat he seemingly first tussled with back when he was a superhero called, BigFigure, who is a short guy … and that’s the funny part.Justin:                     That’sa killer joke. Dude.Alex:                         Oh,man, yes. I did like that. I love these little details that they throw in withthe old-time superheros and supervillains because they feel so consistent withthe comic books of the time.Justin:                     Yeah,and goofy, I think is what you … like all these super dark grittystorytelling about all the heroes they were dealing with in this comic. And allof their back life. All of their earlier crime-fighting stuff is just likebattling a bunch of goofs.Alex:                         Now,let’s talk about Rorschach a little bit because he does, like I said, sit therevery still the entire time while he’s interacting with Big Figure. Big Figureis threatening him. His goons are threatening him. They say, “We haveplenty of time. We’re going to kill you in jail. You’re not going to survivethis.” Do you think Rorschach knows that he is going to be broken out? Ordo you think he knows he has a plan? Or is he just completely disengaged fromeverything? What’s going on with him?Justin:                     Ithink he’s sort of a coiled snake. He’s in full fighting position. He’s justfully at peace, fully Rorschach. I think there’s a line here where we hear thathis psychologist has left him. And I think that proves that he’s right. Thathe’s able to influence that psychologist to fully just give up on society,basically. And I think that gives him the confidence to know, “Whateverhappens, I’m going to be ready and be able to be at my peak when these peoplecome to try to kill me,” or whatever. And he is. Throughout this sequence,these series of little bits here, he dominates these criminals who have himpenned in.Alex:                         Yeah.And to jump back a little bit to the newsstand thing, there’s two things wefind out. One, the guy that he hit with hot oil died. We find that outthroughout this issue. But also, the psychologist does pass by the newsstand.They remark on it a little bit, but they don’t know who he is. And, initially,I thought that the psychologist was going into the Department of ExtraspatialStudies. Looking back on it, I don’t think he’s actually doing that. But one ofthe big things that happened this issue that really does make it feel eitherlike the beginning of the final act or the end of the second act is everythingstarted to come together. Everything is passing by each other. And thesecoincidences are really snowballing, so to speak.Justin:                     Yeah,it feels like this issue, especially the section we’re about to get to is sortof like putting everything on the table, letting everyone have a look at itwhile still the action is plummeting forward. As we get back to the essentialmystery that we’ve sort of not really been paying attention to too much …it’s been a lot character stuff … and now we’re about to start hitting thatfull slope down toward the climax.Alex:                         AndI think part of that is just plot-wise, Dan, the realization that he comes tothe last issue, that there might be more to what Rorschach is saying than justravings of a crazy person. He starts to trust that, “Okay, I worked withthis guy back in the day. Maybe he’s actually on to something. Maybe somebodyis actually taking on masks. Maybe there is some bigger plan that I can’t quitesee here.” And we do get to see him Batman out a little bit, puttingtogether all the clues, which I thought was very fun.Justin:                     Yeah.So let’s just skip to that. We have this scene where the cops confront him athome. Dan’s pretty panicked in that actual scene with the cop and it feels likehe’s busted. But as soon as the cop leaves, he flips back into Batman Nite Owlmode where he’s like, “We’ve got to do this now. They’re gettingclose.” And then we get this great progression of scenes that are tippingthe hat to all these other things while we’re also seeing Nite Owl and SilkSpectre just get ready for their super heroic moment. Which I think is just a… What a great montage just-Alex:                         Oh,my God.Justin:                     …brings together all the threads.Alex:                         It’sso good. If you’re not looking at the comic right now, if your just listeningto this, there’s a series of pages. They all have six panels at the top and onesilent panel at the bottom. And the ones at the bottom are playing off ofwhat’s happening at the top, of course, because it’s very consistent withwhat’s been going in the comic. I believe it’s called-Justin:                     Ibelieve it’s called, juxtaposition, Alex.Alex:                         Oh,I was trying to avoid using that word again, but-Justin:                     Interesting.I felt you feel it, felt you say in your heart, so wanted to say it out loud.Alex:                         Thankyou. I appreciate that. We get to see them getting everything ready. And thisalmost plays to me like an overture in a certain way where we get to see theNew Frontiersman. For the first time, we get to see what’s happening on thisisland that’s been teased before. We get to see the missing nuts, superherowriter, the missing pirate, comic writer who has been working on, he thinks aHollywood movie. We see the squid monster for the first time being drawn bysomebody. We get to see-Justin:                     Butwe truly have no idea what that means.Alex:                         Yes.Justin:                     Nothing.Alex:                         Idefinitely remember very vividly, and I had completely forgotten about that pageuntil I got back to it, but I remember the first time reading that, I was like,“What is going on here? What is this page?”Justin:                     Isthis a panel from another comic that’s somehow in here? Yeah, totally out ofnowhere. What do you think going back one section to the New Frontiersman?Obviously, this guy’s such a dick. And his assistant, though, is wearing ashirt with a smiley face on it.Alex:                         Mm-hmm(affirmative).Justin:                     Isthat meant to be some sort of a reference to pre-Comedian type person? Is thisa person who just has no vision of the world as in just a smiley face that’suntarnished by blood?Alex:                         Imean, that might be part of it. Certainly, he seems like a very naïve simple[baye to use modern parlance. But at the same time, I think Comedianwore that pin, right?Justin:                     Yeah.Alex:                         Andhe is probably a superhero fanboy. So it might just be a Comedian sweatshirtthat he picked up somewhere potentially.Justin:                     Tight.Yeah.Alex:                         But,yeah. I don’t know. And then we get see to Hollis Mason putting together thejack-o’-lantern basically bringing around his own horror, his own doom. Onceagain, we get dripping pumpkin juice over an eye. It looks exactly like theComedian’s button with the blood on it. We get that recurring visual motif. Andwe get to see … they are called, I don’t know if they’re called, PaleHorsemen, but they’re from the gang, Pale Horse … bothering the newsstandperson and being very upset about everything that’s going on. They find outthat there is a riot in the jail. They’re pretty pissed off about that. It’s,in a certain way, Rorschach being arrested really is the spark that sets thisall off almost more than Russia invading Afghanistan, I think.Justin:                     Yeah,though I do think there’s an existential dread for everyone there like,“We’re all going to die.” The newsstand guy is constantly talkingabout how he thinks everyone’s going to die, playing out that anxiety. And eventhe way these panels are laid out, it’s such a stressful build, an anxious buildof … it’s empty. It’s a pretty empty panel with just the comic book. Then allof a sudden there’s smoke everywhere. There’s all these people. There’s a dudenamed, Derf. Everyone’s crowding into the panel.Alex:                         That’sstressful.Justin:                     Yes.Alex:                         Dudenamed Derf, stressful.Justin:                     Exactly.That’s a weird name. And everyone starts shouting. It’s building up, this is aformation of a riot. And they’re trying to get those Katies.Alex:                         Mm-hmm(affirmative). Got to get them Katies.Justin:                     That’sthat street drug.Alex:                         Yeah.What’s your favorite thing about Katie.Justin:                     AboutKatie?Alex:                         Yeah.Justin:                     HavingKaties?Alex:                         Yeah.Justin:                     TakingKaties?Alex:                         Mm-hmm(affirmative).Justin:                     Ilike the way they just make you crazy, make you want to cut off the sleeves offyour jean jackets. And just run amok in the streets.Alex:                         Yeah.I know it was kind of the look at time, but I immediately thought about Leaderfrom Dark Knight Returns, just because they have the same sort of like,“We’re very extreme. We’re wearing those very angular sunglasses atnight.”Justin:                     Yeah.That’s true. That was the most menacing fashion choice you could make back inthe day.Alex:                         Yeah.Wear 3-D glasses, terrifying. And then we go back to the prison. We seeRorschach in a sequence that I’m 100% sure Pete absolutely loved where a dudegoes after Rorschach. Rorschach turns around, twists his fingers around, tieshis pinkies together through the bars of the jail cell, and then Big Figure isforced to cut his throat. Rorschach is splashed with the blood. Now, nothing iswasted in this comic, right?Justin:                     Yeah.Alex:                         Nothingis unimportant. What do you take away from the way Rorschach is splashed withthe blood? Because it’s not the same design as The Comedian’s button. It’s nota Rorschach test because it’s only on one side of him. What do you thinkGibbons and John Higgins who did the coloring, what do you they’re trying to dowith this?Justin:                     Tome, its position makes me think of a toy soldier or just a doll who’s playingout his part and he’s taking all this blood on him. He’s getting splattered.He’s getting tarnished by this shitty situation that he’s in.Alex:                         Itmight also be, just to throw something out, but it might also be that he’s onlyhalf the man right now. He still is Rorschach because as clearly explained acouple of issues back, Walter Kovacs doesn’t exist. He thinks it was justRorschach. But he’s missing his skin right now. He’s missing the thing thattruly makes him, him. So maybe that’s why he only has this Rorschach blot onthe left side of his body.Justin:                     Hmm.I see. Yeah.Alex:                         Well,then we get a switch of everything that’s going on. Now that Nite Owl and … Ikeep wanting to say, Sally Spectre … Silk Spectre, thank you … are in theprison, we switch it and we get this great panel of them flying over the wallsas the guards are shooting. So good. And the entire time, to get back to theDan of it all, Nite Owl is completely in charge. He’s so confident the entiretime. And it’s kind of amazing to see.Justin:                     Yeah.And even though he’s dressed like a giant owl in a prison full of people whowant to kill him, he’s totally chill about it. Wearing a cape that doesn’t makea lot of sense.Alex:                         Thisis … I know we’ve lumped on the movie a lot on this podcast, and I’m sure atsome point we’ll delve back into the movie and do a full episode about it. But,man, reading over the comic, I think … I read the comic again, watched themovie, and I haven’t read the comic since I watched the movie, so that wasstuck in my head … So I was real surprised that they didn’t kick anybody’sasses at any point here. They basically just walk into the prison and the wholeriot and everything is going on around them. And they don’t do much.Justin:                     Yeah.I like that. I think it adds to the tension. It sort of has the haunted houseaspect to it where they’re just trying to find Rorschach. And then when theyconfront him, you can’t tell if he’s bad or he’s a menace. He’s all in red.Seems like he may have officially lost it. And you just see him go and kill BigFigure, the one guy who was trying to kill him off panel in the bathroom andthen walk out with the heroes.Alex:                         Imean, ever since I read this, I pretty much assume anytime somebody says,“I have to go to the men’s room,” that they’re killing somebody inthere.Justin:                     It’ssadly true for me half the time.Alex:                         Yes.Two things I want to point out visually that go on. One, when Rorschach walksout of his cell, he walks through a puddle of blood and leaves footprints ofblood exactly like he did back in the very first issue of the comic, althoughthis time, now, we know that Walter Kovacs is in fact Rorschach. And then theother thing that happens that I think is so great with the coloring that JohnHiggins puts in the book is after Rorschach kills Big Figure, he walks out ofthe room and like you mentioned, everything is in red. He’s cut out theelectricity from the jail, so there’s no lights on there. Only the emergencylights. And we see this puddle coming out. And you would potentially assume outof a bathroom given that the puddle is just all red and reflective, it could bepiss. It could be water. But we know, even without seeing it, that it’s BigFigure’s blood that’s coming out there. And it’s such a great choice.Justin:                     Yeah.I like the idea that you look at this and your first thought is, “Hey,that could be piss.”Alex:                         Hey,man, it’s a bathroom.Justin:                     Couldbe yellow Gatorade.Alex:                         Again,at the Duane Reade, where I’m trying to get my Winnie the Pooh job, lot of pissin there.Justin:                     Yeah.So call Duane Reade … So, especially, this is something they should have donein the movie is Rorschach doesn’t go in and kill that dude. He just goes inthere and sprays pee all over the place. He’s been holding it in the entiretime he’s been in jail. And finally, he’s like, “Oh, yes!” That’s whyhe goes in the men’s room.Alex:                         That’swhy he’s sitting so straight up. Because he’s full of piss. Piss and vinegar, Igot to say.Justin:                     Yeah.You got to say that. Yeah.Alex:                         Theother thing that he probably does, frankly, like knowing Rorschach, knowingwhat’s going on here. He probably goes in, puts all the seats up. And justwalks out.Justin:                     Oh,what a man.Alex:                         Andyou’re like, “Put them down. Come on, man.”Justin:                     Yeah.Come on. People don’t want to touch that right when they’re in there and got togo.Alex:                         Doyou think Rorschach washes his hands when he leaves the bathroom?Justin:                     No.I bet he reads articles about how the dirtiest part of the bathroom is the knobon the sink.Alex:                         Mm-hmm(affirmative).Justin:                     Sohe’s, “I’m not touching that.”Alex:                         Yeah.Speaking of dirty things, we get an interesting interaction when he shows upand sees Silk Spectre and Nite Owl there where he tells Nite Owl, “Good tosee you back in the costume, Dan. Laurie, I never liked your costume. It’sgross.” Which, whatever you want to get into with the misogyny insidenature of Rorschach, it’s still a very funny and very clearly Rorschachexchange that he has there.Justin:                     Yeah.That’s an insulting thing to say to your superhero friend. It’s like,“Hey, work on the costume a little bit.”Alex:                         Yeah,it’s gross, but for some reason, it works for me here just because Rorschach isbeing such a weirdo and we’ve been away from him for so long and learned thathe’s such a bad, gross guy. That seeing him compared to Nite Owl and SilkSpectre, it diffuses it a little bit.Justin:                     Well,also I think it matches the idea of Nite Owl’s his buddy. And he has his newgirlfriend out with him. He’s like, “Oh, I thought it was just going to beyou and I hanging out, and she’s going to be here?” Like, “I thoughtwe were going out to play darts. What’s she doing here? We’re friends. I loveyou.”Alex:                         “Andgo see some [Ron.com Justin:                     “Comeon. It was our night. We were going to go up to the water tower and write ournames.”Alex:                         Sothen they head out in Archie, in the Owlship, another great shot of Rorschachhanging out at the top of the Owlship as they fly away from the prison. Thenthey get back and there’s kind of a big twist where Laurie, who’s been touchingon talking about Doctor Manhattan the entire issue accidentally mentioning hisname because she’s just off the relationship with him, and keeps apologizingabout it, talks about, “I wish somebody would just take care of this forus.” And Doctor Manhattan, totally dude, just holding a magazine, readingabout himself, mind you, shows up in her bedroom to be like, “Oh, we’reactually having a conversation right now on Mars that hasn’t happened yet foryou, but is happening simultaneously for me. Just thought I’d come done here tolet you know we’re going to Mars now.”Alex:                         Whatdo you think Doctor Manhattan wants out of this conversation?Justin:                     Idon’t think he wants anything. I think he really is just fulfilling the gearsof the clock that he says he is.Alex:                         Well,what about, on the other end of the spectrum, what about Laurie? And this issomething we touched on in a couple of episodes, those podcasts, but particularlywe dealt into it a bit in the last episode, what Laurie wants. And here, do youthink there is anything to her constantly dropping Doctor Manhattan’s name toher totally being fine to just say, “Oh, I’m going to Mars. See you later,Dan. Bye,” at the end. Is she still not as into the relationship with Danas Dan is with Laurie? What’s your take on it?Justin:                     Well,I think they’re opposites. I think when she was with John and finally theirrelationship falls apart because he’s being too much for her, she sort of fallsfor Dan because he’s the most human, the most like every man of anyone that shehangs out with, yet still has the touches of the superhero side. So she can geta little bit of everything with him. But then when she sort of conjures him outof nowhere and it’s like, “This is my guy. He’s all-powerful. He doesn’thave issues with confidence. He just is what he is.” She gets swept backup into him. I think she’s just in the middle of a tough spot. But I think atthe end of it, she loves the Doctor Manhattan that she first met so many yearsago. And Nite Owl just isn’t enough to fill that gap.Alex:                         There’salso a possibility that she’s lazy, frankly. That’s something that, not to takeher down a notch, but that’s something that Sally mentions right at thebeginning of the issue where she tells Hollis Mason on the phone, “Oh,it’s so funny that Laurie is going out and doing this stuff. She never reallywanted to put in some work to be a superhero. She was always kind of annoyedand bored by it.” Certainly, that’s Sally’s take and she has her own take.But it could be a relief in a certain way to Laurie to say, “Oh, thankGod, okay, we don’t have to figure out a mystery. We don’t have to breakanybody else out of prison. Great. John is here. He’s going to solveeverything.”Justin:                     Yeah,I think there’s a little truth to that. But also, I think she’s someone who’sreally never made her own decisions in her life. She just became a superherobecause her mom sort of made her. She was with John because it was convenient,though I do think she actually loves him. She was with Dan because he waschasing after her. And then she doesn’t even have to really make a decisionhere because Doctor Manhattan is like, “No, you are talking to me in onehour.” And so she’s like, “Okay.” And off she goes.Alex:                         Thenwe get to see Rorschach and Nite Owl escaping from the police in a parallel tothe scene of Nite Owl and Laurie leaving by the tunnel the last issue. And thenwe get to the saddest scene in the issue, which we talked about earlier. ButHollis Mason, getting killed by this gang, it’s intercut with scenes of him inhis prime beating up villains and having a great time doing it. And even thoughwe haven’t spent a lot of time with Hollis Mason, it’s gutting, I think, thesequence.Justin:                     Yeah,because I think, at our core, if you read comic books and you find Watchmen,Hollis represents sort of regular comics. And so to see him die, even though wedon’t know too much about him as an individual, it feels like Batman, the comiccharacters you sort of grew up and have a nostalgia for are just being murderedright in front of you.Alex:                         Yeah.Well, in a certain way, then, would you say the Leader of the Pale Horse isAlan Moore, and he’s like, “Yep. That’s it. Watchmen killed superherocomics.”Justin:                     Yeah,I do. Especially, I think in the last panel of the issue when these kids walkin and see his dead body, I think that’s sort of the comic industry being like,“Oh, shit. Things just got fucked up in here.” Because after thiscomic, it was like there’s a whole new game out there.Alex:                         Now,one of the last things I wanted to mention is who did Justice, this is acharacter that we haven’t spent a lot of time with, but will become animportant type of lead, if I remember correctly pretty soon, the ghostcharacter who shows up the trick-or-treater who’s dressed like a ghost, whoshows up towards the end, looks a lot like Hooded Justice, at least in terms ofthe profile. Then immediately following that, we got the New Frontiersmanarticle that’s, “Honor Is Like The Hawk: Sometimes It Must GoHooded.” And there’s also a lower case reference to hooded justice in thetext of one of those articles as well. So what I think is most interestingabout that, I don’t think we’re going to get to it immediately, but it’s more,essentially, saying, “Hey, don’t forget about this Hooded Justicecharacter. I know we’re saying we killed off the past, but we’re not quite donewith it completely.”Justin:                     Yeah.Because it does inform … everything is meaningful. It’s just, this issueespecially, puts a real flag in just what a dystopian world is happening aroundall of this action right now.Alex:                         Andjust to get back to the HBO show of it all, I think it’s going to be kind offascinating to see a focus on Hooded Justice just because Sister Night, who isRegina King’s character in the show, seems clearly inspired in the text of theshow by Hooded Justice. So I think there’s going to be a lot of rifts on thatrelatively underserved character when we watch the TV show, but we’ll have tosee.Justin:                     Italmost feels like the TV series, the more we see of it is like, “Oh, it’sall happening again from the beginning.” So it’s not, it’s using all ofthe Watchmen stuff that we know and setting it after that. But the cycle isbeginning once again.Alex:                         Yeah.Justin:                     AndHooded Justice and Rorschach is there, but in different thing. Everything isremixed. But it is from the very same beginning.Alex:                         Yeah.Anything else you want to say about this issue before we wrap up here?Justin:                     Comicsare good.Alex:                         Iagree. If you’d like to support us, patreon.com/comicbookclub. We also do alive show every Tuesday night at New York. Come on by. We’ll chat with you about Watchmen. A couple of placesyou can check out this podcast. You can go to Facebook watchmenwatchpodcast.Also, Instagram watchmenwatchpodcast. On Twitter, WatchmenWatch1. Sorry, wecouldn’t get WatchmenWatchPodcast. That’s just how twitter works. Also, you cancheck out the podcast at comicbookclublive.com. Subscribe, rate and leave acomment on iTunes, Android, Spotify, Stitcher. Or the app of your choice. Andremember, we tape this podcast 35 minutes ago.Justin:                     Alanjust texted me. He said, “I’m so sorry. I’m so, so sorry. Pete is bad atkaraoke. I’ll definitely be there next week.”The post Watchmen Watch: Issue #8, “Old Ghosts” appeared first on Comic Book Club.Support the show: https://www.patreon.com/comicbookclubAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy