Show notes
What do you see in the fifth issue of Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons’ Watchmen, “Fearful Symmetry”? The focus turns to Rorschach, as he gets closer to discovering the truth about Eddie Blake’s murder — and the police get closer to him. Plus, we explore Alan Moore’s greatest Dad jokes.SUBSCRIBE TO WATCHMEN WATCH ON ITUNES, ANDROID, SPOTIFY, STITCHER, OR RSS. FOLLOW US ON TWITTER, INSTAGRAM AND FACEBOOK. SUPPORT OUR SHOWS ON PATREON.The theme music for Watchmen Watch was written and performed by Jeff Solomon.Plus, here’s a transcript of the episode for you to read through as you listen:Alex: Welcometo Watchmen Watch, a podcast about Watchmen, where we talk about Watchmen thecomic, we talk about Watchmen the TV show, we talk about Watchmen the movie, wetalk about Watchmen the bread, we talk about Watchmen the breakfast cereal, Watchmenthe shoes, Watchmen the building, Watchmen my cousin, who is named WatchmenZalben. We talk about all of this and so much more on this podcast. I am Alex.Justin: I’mJustin.Pete: Iam Pete. And it’s too much Alex, it’s too much.Alex: It’snever enough.Pete: Toomuch watching.Alex: It’snever enough. You watch things with your eyes, it’s an unlimited amount ofthings you can watch. So that’s what’s exciting about it. Justin-Pete: Iwatch things with my heart.Justin: Nice.Me too, buddy.Alex: Icouldn’t help but notice, our fourth co-host, he’s not here. What’s going on?You got any news on that?Justin: Ahyes, I was hoping it wouldn’t come up, but it does, because he’s one of four.He just texted me, Alan Moore, our fourth co-host, the writer of Watchmen, veryfamous. He really has planned on being here, but he’s finished taking his nameoff stuff and now he’s taking my name off stuff.Alex: What?Pete: Ohman.Justin: He’serasing, I won’t have an identity. He took my name off my birth certificate.Alex: Ohthat’s crazy. I was going to say, you just released that erotic novella.Justin: Yeah.Thank you for pronouncing it correctly. As I said, lightly Italian. It is anovella.Alex: Youhad a really beautiful reception the other day. Alan Moore was there. We got alittle tipsy on some pink sparkling champagne bubbles, some pink bubbles as helikes to call them.Justin: Yes.My drink of choice, yep.Alex: Yeah.But I’m sad he’s not here. I was very excited to talk about this issue. We’regoing to be talking about issue five of Watchmen, Fearful Symmetry. Pete, Iknow you’re clapping because you love fear, right?Pete: No.This was one of my favorite issues.Justin: Heloves symmetry. Pete’s a symmetry dude. Real chasing butterflies type guy.Alex: Wellthis is interesting. This is something that’s come up that we’ve talked about alittle bit when we first launched the podcast on our Patreon Slack. People weresaying, “Eww, I wonder what’s going to happen when Pete gets the issueabout Rorschach because the discussion which I thought was very well-said withthe Patreon members, a bunch of people were talking about how Rorschach as ateenager or potentially when you first read Watchmen when you’re sort of comingof age, you potentially identify with Rorschach. You’re like, “Oh, I’mthis other. I’m this nerd who’s reading comic books.”Alex: Butas you get older and particularly now, you understand that Rorschach is a bitof a conspiracy nut and that’s saying it very lightly. And that’s somethingthat they’re playing off of. We talked about this in the preview episode on theHBO show. They’re blowing it out there, having seemingly a bunch of peoplecalled the Seventh Cavalry who completely misunderstood the writings ofRorschach and are using him to spur on an alt-right-esque movement.Alex: Nowthis is the issue, last issue, focused almost completely on Doctor Manhattan,his origin, what was going on in his head.Justin: Yeah.It was a real thinking man’s issue.Alex: Itwas. This issue, it’s not completely Rorschach, but it’s certainly theRorschach issue. Is that why you were excited, Pete? And in total, given thatyou do love Rorschach that much, but we’ve been having these discussions in thepodcast, did you view this issue any differently?Pete: No.I still very much love Rorschach, think he’s a solid dude. I … It’s funnybecause …Justin: Soliddude. He’s [crosstalk Alex: Doyou know what? I would expect the most Rorschach if he saw you, give you asweet fist bump.Pete: Yeah.Yeah. I tell you what, though, it’s funny because now I relate the dude readingthe comic next to the newsstand.Justin: Whyis that, because you read comics?Pete: BecauseI read comics and I swear the same way he does. So yeah, I still think Rorschachis great. I don’t know, I love how grimy he is, how real and raw he is, hisproblem with authority. I think he’s a solid character and I think he’s a lotof fun. I definitely don’t agree with a lot of his [crosstalk Justin: Iwould argue that he is not. He’s not fun.Pete: What’sthat?Justin: He’snot fun. I would argue he’s not fun.Pete: Ohweird.Justin: He’ssuper negative. He has a horrible world view.Pete: Butwhat about that whole thing about look behind you? That was fun. What aboutshoving that dude in the fridge? That was fun.Justin: Well,he’s throwing around this poor, broken-down man who’s dying anyway and he’s oneof the few people that Rorschach encounters who is truly below him and I thinkhe takes pleasure in inflicting pain on him which is something not superheroic.Pete: Right.Justin: AndI just think Rorschach is conspiracy theorist sort of head space and the factthat he doubts everything happens to be right in this case and he’s the onlyone that sniffs out the mystery here. But think of any other day in his lifebefore this when he was like, “Oh, look at this diner flyer,” fromthe …Pete: Yeah.But it’s all leading up to this day, though. This is when he’s the hero.Justin: Butthere’s so many days that he was just shaking down some random strangers andthem for something that wasn’t there. Pete: That’sjust him sacrificing himself for the moment.Justin: Andalso, all the people he beats up because he thinks they ate at the same diner wherethere was a crime.Pete: Right.Right. That makes sense. Well I just want to say, though, I’m not saying that Iagree with how he’s doing things, just someone who’s reading a comic, I thinkhe’s a fun character and I’m super glad that he’s a part of this world. I lovehow he fits into all of this.Alex: Wait.Sorry. Are you talking about the kid sitting next to the newsstand orRorschach?Justin: Rorschach.Pete: WellI mean it’s a great character in the story.Justin: Right.Pete: Alex’spoint, it’s just so interesting the way you read it when you’re a kid and it’scool to be … and this was also when we were reading this was probably in themid-to-late ’90s/early 2000s, where badass comics were all about who is thismysterious badass who dwells in darkness? All that shit. And he seemed justcool and now you see all the stuff that sticks out. It’s whoa! His world viewis actually the bad.Alex: Wellon a thematic bent, just to take a step back from this a bit and we weretalking about this quite a bit during the Doctor Manhattan podcast, but I thinkit’s also very much applicable here. Among the other themes that they’redealing with very heavily in this comic, on the character bent, it’s a lotabout can you change?Justin: Yeah.Alex: Andmore than can you change, it’s can you change from whatever your formativepoint was? That’s something that Doctor Manhattan is dealing with. He wasremade when he was blasted apart. Is he Jon Osterman? Is he Doctor Manhattan?What is he now? Is he something that exists simultaneously in that moment whenhe was destroyed, as well as the past and present and future? And Rorschach …Pete: Oris he the pirate and you know, on that raft?Justin: That’sthe one thing I don’t think he is.Alex: No.No. He’s not. Again, I was talking about Doctor Manhattan. But Rorschach is …very good, jumping all over the place, Pete. Rorschach in a parallel, he is thecharacter that cannot move on from the heyday of being a vigilante. The veryrare glimpses we get of him during his partnership with Nite Owl, that’s whenit seems like he was probably at his best, right?Justin: Yeah.Alex: Hewas at his cleanest. He was probably not happy, but he was certainly at hishappiest. And he is the person that is holding onto that. He’s the personthat’s resisted the Keene Act, resisted the future and ultimately to jump aheadto the end of the story, that’s his undoing. He can’t change. He can’t moveforward with the times, even though Adrian Veidt is the person who is adaptingto the times and not only adapting to them, but trying to force them forward ina certain way. So I think that something that plays really heavily here is …Justin: Imean it checks out. I think that’s why Rorschach is such a perfect name andidentity for him. The world around him is changing. He does not and so theinterpretation of his actions is different. Just like the Rorschach Test,depending on who’s looking at it …Alex: Yeah,exactly.Justin: They’regoing to see whatever they see in it. And I also think that plays into how weread this when we were younger and we’re reading it now and we have a totallydifferent interpretation because we’ve changed. This character has not changed.The Rorschach blot is exactly what it was when Alan Moore wrote this and DaveGibbons drew it and now we have a totally different understanding of him. Andthat’s amazing to have that level of synergy. So cool.Pete: Italso says something about the writing, how it’s the same. You change around it.You get different things from it, you know? It’s pretty awesome.Alex: Theother thing that I’d say, though, is that Watchmen was so influential, thecomics, that as you were pointing out, Justin, we … I know I didn’t readWatchmen when it came out in 1986. I probably read it 10 years later afterthere had been a full decade of Watchmen influencing comics and then there wasa reaction to that reaction and a reaction to that reaction and so on and soforth.Alex: Sowhereas Watchmen was coming out and redefining things as it was happening, thisalso, we’ve seen, we’ve grown up reading comics for the past couple of decadesthat have influenced our thinking about comics. We’ve seen comics … You know,just to get into the specific structure of this issue, I thought it was funnybecause we were reading this one because there’s another comic book that weread recently that we reviewed that was very similar structurally.Alex: Sothis is structured like a Rorschach blot. It’s essentially a palindrome. Itstarts at the beginning, meets in the middle and then parallels towards theend. There’s a book called Ice Cream Man that came out recently that did that,as well. It was more specifically a palindrome where you could read itbackwards and forwards and change the story, depending on how you looked at it,which clearly is based on this issue. So even now, even decades later, thereare still comic books that are adapting and using the influence of Watchmen,which makes a lot of sense.Alex: Shouldwe jump into the issue? Should we walk through it?Justin: Yeah.Let’s walk through it. Do you wish that there were more characters named afterpsychological evaluation tests?Alex: Absolutely.Justin: Likerole play would be a fun … Okay you, I’m the hero, but now I’m going to bethe villain, you be the hero and let’s see how this goes.Alex: Yeah.There was that comic book that came out that was called Sometimes Just A CigarMan.Justin: Ohyes, yes.Alex: Thatwas kind of interesting. Of course, Oedipus, the original superhero.Justin: Ohyeah, yeah. Cool.Alex: Sohere, I’ll start walking us through the issue. So we have this first page,which again is paralleled in the final page, as well, where we see somefootsteps. One of the great things about this issue in particular, we’ve talkedcertainly about Alan Moore and we’ve talked about Dave Gibbons, we’ve onlytouched on John Higgins’ coloring a little bit in various issues. It’s soprominent here because almost every panel changes the coloring. There’s almosta light flashing back and forth, sort of rolling back and forth here.Alex: Andwe get that in particular, it sets that up right in the first page as somebody,it turns out it’s Rorschach, walks up this dirty stairway on his way to findMoloch, who he knows, knows more about whatever conspiracy is going on.Alex: Andthen to Pete’s point, I sort of get what Pete’s saying because you do have asense of the extreme vigilante, the punisher and whatnot, him doing thingswhere he … Moloch slowly walks through his house and then eventually finds anote in the refrigerator with a Rorschach blot that says behind you. And thenhe turns around and Rorschach is there and Rorschach pushes him into thefridge. What do you think, Justin? You seem a little conflicted about this.Moves like this, are they cool to you or do they feel dangerous?Justin: Itwas cool. It’s a cool move. It’s a cool storytelling thing, but putting myselfin the head of Rorschach, why do this to this poor … He’s just scaring. MaybeI just have more sympathy for Moloch now. He didn’t need to … This is likeplaying a prank on this poor man who he knows he’s dying, he knows he’sterrified. It’s just unnecessary. And then you’re just going to hassle himanyway.Pete: Yeah.But just to back up the truck a little bit, the coloring … Just it’s one ofthese things where it’s art and stuff like this that makes it so easy to goback to this book, because the paneling, because the coloring is so awesome. Itdoesn’t get tired to look at it and to kind of go back and re-read it again.There is so much cool stuff going on in this book that it’s just, you know, youkind of, as we mentioned, get different stuff.Pete: Butyeah. Sure. But he doesn’t know what’s going on with Moloch. He thinks thatMoloch is maybe holding back information. So regardless of his health,regardless of that stuff, he wants information and he feels he’s in the rightand getting it this kind of gruff, you know, overly masculine way.Justin: Imean I take that point. I guess Moloch could be involved somehow.Pete: Right.Justin: Butdo you think Rorschach thinks that he is here?Pete: Wellhe definitely does because he goes to his place to get info from him and in hismind, it’s he knows what’s going on, he’s on the list, he’s got to be in theloop.Alex: Ido think Moloch, not Moloch, excuse me, Rorschach is very much grasping atstraws. This is one of the flaws with him, right, is that he is eventuallyright. He does manage to stumble on the right answers, but he’s going foreverything. There was an issue back where he looked at Laurie and Dan beingtogether and he was like, “Well, well, well. They’re probably cheating onDoctor Manhattan. Maybe they planned the whole thing. Maybe it’s Laurie. I’mgoing to go after her.” Which is just as crazy as any other possibility.It just turns out he stuffs Moloch in a fridge and eventually discovers theright answer and gets on the right track with things.Alex: Toyour point, Justin, I think part of it is that we’ve already … Now we’re fiveissues in, right? These superheroes are not good people. They haven’t had agood relationship with the world. They haven’t done a good thing. So if it wasanother comic book or like, “Fuck yeah, Rorschach. Yeah. Go for itRorschach. Get him. Get that fucker Moloch the Mystic.” I get it, but weknow he’s a sick dude with cancer who maybe did some not so nice things in thepast, but ultimately, he’s going to die very soon. So it’s not deserved what’shappening to him from Rorschach.Justin: Andat the end of this issue, he goes back to hassle Moloch again and that’s wherehe gets caught. So he does pay a price for his cruelty.Pete: Well,no, no, no.Justin: Andat the end of his panel …Pete: Holdon. Hold on a second. Hold on a second. First off, when he’s got the fridgeclosed, there’s that whole panel where Rorschach is thinking and then herealizes oh, I’m wrong. I’m going to let him out of the fridge. And the onlyreason he goes back to his place is not to beat information out of him, it’sbecause he got a note in the trashcan that says, “Meet me at news.” So he doesn’t go back to harass him. He gets set up.Alex: Ithink you’re wrong about that and I think you’re wrong on both counts. First ofall, with the refrigerator thing, he’s stuffing Moloch in the refrigerator andMoloch says, “Oh no, no, no. Oh God, don’t. Rorschach please, it wasn’tme. I don’t know. I don’t know who it was.” He closed him in therefrigerator and he doesn’t think better of it. He realizes okay, I thinkMoloch is kind of telling me the truth now, so I’ll go let him out of thisrefrigerator.Pete: Yeah,he doesn’t know.Alex: Hedoesn’t feel bad about it.Pete: No.He realizes, oh, he doesn’t know anything and he lets him out.Alex: Iguess. But I don’t know. Rorschach’s not a good guy here. I’m sorry.Justin: Andhe hasn’t slept in many days, so he’s not thinking straight.Pete: Right.Alex: Right.Have you ever been stuffed in a fridge Pete?Pete: Huh.I’m thinking.Alex: What’sthe weirdest place you’ve ever been stuffed Pete?Pete: Ina locker. I had my head shoved in the toilet for a swirley.Alex: Ohjeez. Yikes. Wait, were you really stuffed in a locker?Pete: Yeahdude.Alex: Bya bully.Pete: Yeah.Alex: Ohman.Pete: Footballplayers.Alex: Ohwow. I had to do that to myself.Justin: Oh,you didn’t even have a bully?Alex: No.That’s not a joke.Justin: Backin my day, we didn’t have bullies. Last week of school [crosstalk Alex: Iwas a nerd. I had never been stuffed in a locker, so I stuffed myself in alocker just to get the experience.Justin: Wow,nice. Got your cred.Alex: Yeah,I did.Pete: Didyou close it all the way and did someone have to let you out?Alex: Yeah.I closed it all the way and my friend was waiting out there and I said,“Okay, you can let me out now.” And then he did.Pete: Okay.Justin: Didyou give yourself a wedgie? Were you playing out your own father issues onyourself?Alex: Listen.I don’t want to get into it, but yes.Justin: Didyou comb your hair back?Alex: Wait.Hold on Justin. I see what you’re doing. Where’s the weirdest place you’ve beenstuffed?Justin: Oh,interesting. I guess I haven’t really been stuffed in a lot of places. I was ina cave once for a long time.Alex: Fora long time?Justin: WellI was in there. I was like, “I don’t want to leave.”Alex: Ohokay. You went on a cave tour?Justin: Oh.I was in a culvert underneath a railroad tracks and there was a beaver in therewith us and that was a place I didn’t want to be.Alex: Wereyou in a cartoon at the time or what was going on?Justin: Thiswas just out … My countrified cred which clashes my nerd cred. There was abeaver dam we had to break up because the water in the lake was getting toohigh, so we had to go down and break up the beaver dam. And part of doing that,we crawled into this culvert because it was dammed up and the beaver happenedto be there and he was in the water like the monster in Star Wars in A New Hopethat’s after them in the trash compacter.Pete: Yeah.In the trash compacter, right?Justin: Yeah.Pete: That’scalled Dianoga. Anyway, go on.Alex: Didyou try shooting the beaver with your laser gun?Justin: Alex,get back in your locker for saying that.Alex: Allright. Yeah. Sorry about that guys.Justin: Youdidn’t need to say that. Get in your locker. And that’s where my third brotherwas killed by that beaver that day.Alex: OhJesus.Pete: Ohman.Justin: Wow,the third Tyler brother.Alex: Theyrumored that for so long in the comics and then finally they revealed the thirdTyler brother. That was huge.Justin: Yeah.We called him Jason X.Pete: Ohdude. You’re way to casual.Alex: Let’sget to Rorschach just for a second. So as he’s walking out of Moloch’s place,we get a glimpse again of the sign that’s outside there which is a skull andcrossbones made out of an R. To the point that Pete made earlier, do you think,at least in this issue or is it all of the issues, that Rorschach is the piratein Tales of the Black Freighter? Could be?Justin: Interesting.Yes. I mean, this issue has the most Black Freighter stuff up to this point, aswell. And he is the one who’s life is at the ultimate low point, where he’slashing together pieces of information like the dead bodies of the peoplearound him. I would argue that’s what his world view is, that nothing isworthwhile. He’s just trying to get by and he’s willing to do anything nomatter how horrifying to keep moving.Alex: Welland he’s also the person who is … He’s the only one that realizes there’ssome sort of doom coming, unlike the pirate in Tales of the Black Freighter whoknows specifically it’s the Black Freighter that’s coming for everybody, that’scoming for his family. Rorschach doesn’t know what it is yet. He just knowssomething bad is going to happen and he’s trying to go as fast as he can tostop it while everybody else, Dan, Laurie, even Doctor Manhattan are kind ofjust going about their lives and doing their own things. So I think that pointis well-made, Pete. Then we …Pete: Ah-hah.Alex: Yeah.Then we get a scene with the two cops who are such interesting characters tome.Pete: Really?Alex: Wellthey’re interesting because there’s all these other bigger than life, lifelikecharacters which are the superheroes, the Minute Men and the Crime Busters andeverybody else. And then you just have these two cops on the beat who keepcoming in every once in a while sort of like a Rosencrantz and Guildensternfigure. And it’s fun to see them. I don’t remember how many more times theyturn up, but it was surprising to me to see them again in this issue.Pete: What?Alex: What?Pete: Allright. Well before I unpack that, I just want to talk about I love how, youknow, we kind of have Rorschach’s journal talking about a flash ofenlightenment and then you kind of, the next panel is Buddha on the back of adoor, you know, with blood. I think that’s pretty awesome.Justin: Youlove a little Buddha?Alex: Youlove a little Buddha?Pete: WellI love the enlightenment cut-to. I think that’s a fun thing.Alex: Wella couple of things about it. I mean first of all, it has the same blood splashas what’s going on on Eddie Blake’s smiley button, so it’s definitely a bitdefaced in that way. It’s exactly the same way. And then also, it’s somethingthat’s perfectly even and parallel like the Rorschach blot, like the sign outsideMoloch the Mystic. So there’s that …Pete: Alsolike Doctor Manhattan’s world he’s building on Mars.Alex: No,I don’t think so. I mean, that’s a little uneven in terms of his watch cogs andstuff, right? He’s just trying to create order, but Rorschach has the samething backwards and forwards and I think that’s what’s going on.Pete: Idon’t know why you’re fighting me on this.Alex: Well,we also get … we also get in the first half of the issue, we get thistriangle with the Buddha and in the second half of the issue, we get thetriangle with the, oh gosh what do you call them? Gay … not gay/lesbians.Whatever they’re called in this world. It’s something slightly different thanwhat it actually should be. We’ll find it when we get to it.Pete: Yeah.I’m just saying, though, when Doctor Manhattan is floating on Mars, all thesetriangles start appearing in the ground and then keep growing up.Alex: Yeah.Those are the watch cogs.Pete: Right.But I’m saying they look like triangles, which is what Buddha is in [crosstalkAlex: They’rewheels. They’re circles Pete.Justin: Wesee a lot of triangles just in [inaudible Pete: Dude.You’re killing me man. The page here, there’s just literally triangles on itwhere Doctor Manhattan is … I don’t know why you’re fighting that [crosstalkJustin: Ifyou go to the next page, there’s a triangle. Think about that.Alex: Yeah.If you fold over the corner of the page, there’s a triangle.Pete: Okay.Cool.Justin: Pete’sis a triangle.Alex: AllI’m saying is some people see triangles, some people see circles. Let’s justcall them shapes, you know?Pete: Allright. Let’s talk about the cops that you love so much.Alex: Ido like those cops. But I think we could actually move on. We talked about theBlack Freighter a little bit. There’s a scene …Pete: Wait.Why do you like the cops? They don’t seem very good at their job or aware ofanything.Alex: Ilike them because I am curious to see more of them and how they play into thenarrative.Pete: Okay.Alex: That’sall. I’m [crosstalk Justin: Youmay feel like they’re just another example of sort of the bleakness of theeveryday world. We get these two scenes back-to-back with the cops who sort ofdon’t know what they’re doing and just talking about how the world is allfucked. And then the next scene is the kid reading the comic book or I guessthe man reading the comic book and the newspaper dealer. And they’re talkingabout the same thing, but they’re sort of a little more scared, as opposed tobeing resigned to their fate.Pete: Yeah.Now I just want to also say we talked about reading it younger and then readingit now. When I was a kid, I definitely didn’t pick up on how meta this was,having a kid read the comic while I’m reading the comic, you know?Alex: Doyou think, it would have been kind of interesting if they had the pirate in theBlack Freighter tale also reading a comic, maybe a comic about Pete LePage?Justin: Oh,that’s good.Pete: Ithink I would have picked up on that when I was younger.Justin: Maybethey’ll do that in the show.Alex: Personalizedshows. That’s the next iteration. After that, we get a quick scene with Dan andLaurie as their relationship starts to build a little bit in this issue. Lauriehas been kicked out of the place she was living. She’s lost all of her money.She doesn’t necessarily want to look for a handout, but Dan offers, says,“Hey, you can stay at my place. That’s absolutely fine.” And there’sthis great panel. We’ve talked a lot about the juxtaposition in this comicbook. But this great panel at the end where they’ve finished their meal,they’re walking away and it says, “We’re both leftovers.”Justin: Yeah.Pete: Yeah.Alex: Nowthe other thing …Justin: HBO’sThe Leftovers.Alex: HBO’sThe Leftovers. It’s a huge hint going on there.Justin: Synergy.Alex: Healso says we’re lost.Justin: Yeah.Alex: And#DamonLindelof.Justin: It’scrazy they said hashtag back then because that was sort of not very popular.Maybe they …Pete: NowJustin …Justin: Yes.Pete: Whenyou were … it was just you and the beaver in that, you know, little tunnelthing …Justin: Culvert.Pete: Didyou see … Oh, sorry. We see a, you know, a guy stranded in a raft and kind ofpulls a pigeon out of the air and eats it and then it cuts to, you know, NiteOwl there eating, kind of holding it the same way. Were you worried it wouldcome down to you and the beaver and you would have to eat the beaver?Justin: Yeah.I’d eat the beaver and I’d make a little hat out of it. No, it was just, Ididn’t like when the beaver was bumping into my leg with it’s sharp teeth.Pete: Ouch.That’s terrifying.Justin: I’mnot … You know, a beaver is not a scary animal, but put yourself in a tube whereyou can’t really see the exit, it’s very far away, it gets scary.Alex: Iwant to say something else about …Justin: Onequick thing.Alex: Yeah,please.Justin: Beforewe move on, I love this panel where you have Dan looking out, it’s straight outof a romance comic, except he’s in what traditionally would be the woman’s roleof looking fraught right at the camera as someone walks away. And I feel likethat’s a purposeful reference here and it’s great.Alex: Yeah.Pete: Also,it’s nice to see that the guy is looking that way, you know?Alex: That’swhat Justin just said.Pete: Yeah.Alex: There’salso the other two things that I’m going to point out about the scene and thenwe’ll move on. You mentioned, Pete, the cut from the pirate on the Black Freighterdesperately eating a seagull to Dan Dreiberg desperately eating a chicken leg.And I think the implication there is pretty clear, is that he’s been starvingfor companionship for a woman to be in his life for a very long time and he’sbeing fed for the first time. So that’s what we’re getting there. The otherthing, with the Rorschach of it all, there’s reflections throughout the issueand pretty much every scene with Dan and Laurie has a mirror in it to the pointwhere there is one of the panels is completely them having a conversation inthe mirror and you don’t see them at all, which I think is kind of justgraphically fascinating.Pete: Yeah.Yeah.Alex: Sothere you go. Then we get the big centerpiece right in the middle of the issuewhich is Adrian Veidt’s big fight. He is walking with his new assistant. Hewalks downstairs and a man attacks him.Pete: Wait.Alex: YesPete. What do you want to talk about that happened right before that?Pete: Iwant to talk about the … we skipped over the Rorschach kind of starting hisday and being at the diner. I think that’s kind of we kind of get to see howRorschach kind of wakes up, starts his day and it’s not a normal kind of thing.But it is interesting how there is parallels, you know? Some people say oh, Ihave to put on my face in the morning, I have to apply makeup or something likethat. Or you know, in Rorschach’s case, this mask is his face. And I thoughtthat was kind of an interesting …Pete: Youknow, we all kind of put on masks or whatever when we’re going out in publicand I think that’s kind of interesting.Alex: Welland that also ties into what happens at the end of the issue where the cops dofinally unmask Rorschach.Pete: Yeah.Alex: Andthey realize they have no idea who he is because he’s just some guy. But that’salso how Rorschach feels. He is some guy under the mask, but that doesn’tmatter. He is Rorschach through-and-through.Pete: Yeah.He says, “You’re taking my skin off,” I think.Justin: Yeah.Gross. Gross.Alex: Didthat ever happen to you? Did a bully ever do that to you?Pete: Takemy skin off? Yeah.Alex: Takeyour skin off. Yeah.Pete: I’vebeen unskinned before, taking the face skin off.Alex: Allright. I want to get back to the Adrian Veidt thing because he does have thisbig fight with this dude in the lobby of his building. We get a layout that Idon’t think is like anything else that happens in the comic book. We get almosta two-page spread of the fight with a double vertical panel in the middle whereyou see Adrian Veidt whipping back this trophy I want to say and then whippingit forward.Justin: It’san ashtray.Alex: Ashtray.Yes. Thank you. And the guy eats a poison pill and dies. Now this is gettinginto big spoilers if for whatever reason you haven’t read it before. But again,it’s very fascinating reading all of the Adrian Veidt stuff, knowing what weknow and knowing what he’s going to head towards because clearly, he’s settingthis up to make it feel like oh, the conspiracy is coming after me, too, when infact, he is the one that is setting it up the entire time.Justin: Yeah.He orchestrated this …Pete: Spoiler,dude.Justin: Wefind out later. Yeah. But that’s why I think this panel construction is sounique for this comic. We don’t see anywhere else this number of splash pages,like you said, Alex, and these are really hero … every one’s a hero shot.It’s him dodging a bullet, grabbing a weapon, wrecking the dude and thenpulling him out. It’s straight out of any other superhero comic and I just lovethat in the end, we find out that these hero shots are really setting up thevillain. It’s the one person that gets the hero shot.Pete: Yeahand it’s really cool that you get the V in the background with the two bigpanels back-to-back like that, you know? It’s really very powerful and remindsme of the kind of X-Men stuff I would see later.Alex: We’vetalked about this a bit, as well, in the podcast just how well-constructed amystery this book is, this whole series is because they give you all the clues,just like Mr. Snowman, you know? And there’s a panel in here which I love whereit’s Adrian Veidt looking directly at the camera towards the end and he’stalking to the guy, but he’s looking directly at us and says, “I want toknow who’s behind this.” But it’s him who’s behind it, so he knows.“Don’t bite down you scum. I want to know who sent you.” It’s great.The whole thing. He’s telling you the entire time exactly that he did it andthey’re telling you.Justin: Butit’s crazy. If this were a Law and Order episode or something, it would be howdid he know he had a poison pill in his tooth? He just knew? That’s crazy.Alex: Yeah.Justin: It’ssomething … that’s a big, stupid thing to say because he wouldn’t have knownthat.Alex: Right.But in this case, he’s a superhero, right? So they all trust him. They knowhim. And right on the next page, the newspaper man is talking about oh whowould dare attack that lovely Adrian Veidt? Everybody thinks he’s absolutelywonderful. So of course, him being the superhero, to your point, Justin, thisincredible hero, he would know about it absolutely. And then the one lastthing, just again in terms of him straight up telling us what’s going on,there’s this whole thing where the assistant wants to make some action figures.In his action figure line, they want to make enemies. And he’s like, “Wellwho would you make them of?” And the last thing he says in the scene is,“If they ask why, just tell them I don’t have any enemies.” Andthat’s true. He is the enemy himself. He doesn’t have any enemies other thanhim.Justin: Yeah.And I think the fact that he’s making action figures is a clear indication thathe is meant to be Todd McFarlane.Alex: Again,looking very far ahead, but interesting and correct.Justin: [inaudiblePete: Yeah,just the part where he is reaching into this dude’s mouth and his hand is allbloody and the cop is looking on in horror in the background. That really justscreams this guy is the villain.Alex: Yeah.Justin: Yeah.Alex: It’sgreat. So then we get another page of the Black Freighter and people reactingto what went down with Adrian Veidt. We get another page of Rorschach and thenwe go back to Dan and Laurie, again with the mirrors. We get a scene where hewalks her into her bedroom, stares at her longingly in the mirror for a moment.Now we touched on this the last episode with the Doctor Manhattan-Laurierelationship. How do you feel about the Dan Dreiberg-Laurie relationshipbecause he’s also crazy older than her?Justin: Yeah.Is he? I guess I don’t know that. He is, though, I guess. He must be, at leastto some degree.Alex: Yeah.I think he’s mid-to-late 40s and she’s 20-30 years younger than that, somethinglike that.Justin: Wow.I think it must be … it’s probably a 20-year age gap or something.Alex: Yeah.Something like that.Justin: Imean, the way they are in the issue, they feel like contemporaries, so I don’tthink we’re meant to … I guess in the same way, why is she so young? Becausethat’s a weird thing and it keeps coming up. But the comic doesn’t emphasizethat in any way.Pete: Yeah.I didn’t … It’s not something that I was … I mean when you talk about it,yeah. But it’s not something that they play with at all it doesn’t seem like [crosstalkAlex: Well,I mean I think they do, but she says, “You’re like a big brother. You knowthat?” Which I guess doesn’t necessarily imply a 20-year age difference,but certainly she’s not thinking about him, it seems at this point as a potentiallover so much as somebody who is older, somebody who does take care of her. Themore that I read this book, again, at this point it feels like in a 2019 vein,the women certainly get a short shrift in this book. The focus is much more onthe men and if there is one modern quibble that I think you can have with it,it’s definitely that.Justin: Yeah.It’s written from a crazy male perspective. The women don’t really exist but inrelationship to the men. There’s no real … Her whole function here is to beDoctor Manhattan’s wife who leaves him for this other guy. And that’s not good.Pete: No.Alex: No.It’s not good. Also not good is what happens to the pirate of the BlackFreighter is he gets attacked by a shark. This is, I’ve got to tell you, the firsttime I read Watchmen, I sort of skimmed the Black Freighter segments because itwas well what’s with all the pirates? I don’t get this at all. This isridiculous. But I definitely remember the shark part. There is specifically thecoloring that John Higgins does here with all the reds and the pink of theshark and everything. Terrifying, absolutely terrifying.Justin: Yeah.Terrifying. Super intense. It really plays well. I agree with you. When you’reyounger, I feel like you’re not able to draw the literary juxtaposition that isthere quite as much, but it’s so cool reading it now.Pete: Yeah.And it’s also very interesting to kind of get across how crazy the pirate is orwhatever. We can see the coloring of the shark, but he also describes it in adifferent color, which also just hammering down what he’s been through and hownot really … He’s aware of everything that’s happening, but also has a skewedvision.Alex: Doyou think, though, that this scene with the shark is all to set up the rawshark joke that happens in two pages?Justin: Yes.No, but I think … I also think it’s about … I mean this is the parallel tothe story and it’s just another sort of advanced clue to what is actuallyhappening in this whole story.Alex: Rightbecause then we get the Rosencrantz and Guildenstern style cops. Again, they’retrying to figure out what’s going on with Eddie Blake. And in the middle ofthat, they get a phone call telling them that somebody has seen raw shark andthey realize what it actually is. Did you realize when they said raw shark andthey realized what it is what they were talking about or did it take you aminute [crosstalk Justin: Ittook me a minute. It’s one of those things that sort of makes you think. Itdraws you out of the story. It sort of makes you look at the matrix of it for asecond because it’s wait, what are they talking about? And then it … And Ithink that’s an interesting technique to do here. It sort of resets your brainin a weird way. Because look, it’s one of the only panels, especially withthese cops, where there’s just the punchline of the joke and a huge reactionfrom the cop in the foreground. It’s such an emphasized moment and I think it’smeant to sort of get you keyed back into the mystery.Pete: Yeah.I don’t know, it just seems like this weird dad joke in the middle of a comic.I don’t know.Alex: Itmade me laugh when I realized I also felt super dumb that I didn’t pick up onit as it happened until I saw Rorschach on the next page. And I was like,“Oh yeah. Okay. I get it. I get what we’re going for.” But then weget into the next scene with Moloch that we talked about before which doesvisually parallel almost exactly what happens towards the beginning of theissue, except this time, as we come around Moloch, we find that he’s been shotin the head, Rorschach has been set up and then we get this action sequencewhich to the point you were making earlier Justin, Rorschach goes beyondvigilante justice here to the point where I think he is cruel to these cops whoare trying to track him down. What’s your guys take on it?Pete: WellI would just like to say the coloring of Moloch being shot in the head isreally powerful and amazing.Justin: Yeah.Pete: Andit’s kind of spooky. The first time I read it, I was really grossed out.Justin: Iwouldn’t say he’s cruel, it ends up being cruelty to these cops, but he’s justdesperate. He’s not trying to hurt them more than he needs to for pleasure. Ithink he’s just like, “Oh fuck. I have to do everything I can to getaway.” Because he’s never been boxed in like this.Pete: Yeah.Backed against a wall.Justin: Andhis whole life is at stake. Yeah.Pete: Yeah.Alex: Soyeah. He does, though. He gets out. He jumps through a window. He sets peopleon fire.Pete: Yeah,he does.Alex: Ultimatelythey catch him. They unmask him. And there’s one, again, I read this personallyas a joke similar to the raw shark thing. But the second-to-last panel afterhe’s screaming, “No! My face! Give it back! Who the hell is he?” Theydrag him off. He’s lost one shoe. His hat is hanging on the other side and thedialogue is everything balances. When clearly, this panel in particular doesnot at all. You have one shoe on, one shoe off. You have the hat in the upperleft corner.Alex: Certainlyit parallels stuff that’s gone on in the beginning because we had thenewspaper, we had one shoe hitting the puddle at the beginning. We end with thereflection of the pirate S sign. I don’t know, I just thought this was a funnything where you’ve had this whole mirror image issue and the second-to-lastpanel is something that throws off that pattern in a certain way.Justin: ButI think on the theme of the story, at the beginning of this issue, Rorschach iswalking in, super confident, cocky when he’s confronting Moloch. He plays aweird trick on him as part of the mystery. And he steps in this puddle withintention to go do that and in the second-to-last panel, he’s being draggedback out of the house at his absolute lowest. So I think it balances out emotionallyfor Rorschach, where he goes from the top, he’s in his element, he’s solving amystery, he’s making moves forward to absolutely back to the lowest point hecould possibly imagine.Alex: Ithink that’s fair. That makes sense. Let’s talk about the back matter, as well,because there’s a whole history of pirate comics that goes on here, which Ithought was so neat. And it actually includes a lot of real writers and artistsand contemporaries of Alan Moore who were working at D.C. Comics. And for thoseof you who didn’t read this or didn’t maybe listen to a previous episode of thepodcast, one of the things that’s going on in this world is because superheroesexisted.Alex: Veryspecifically, Marvel Comics totally failed and Marvel Comics totally failedbecause their big hit was Fantastic Four #1. They made all of their money offof superhero comics, so they never became a thing in this world versus D.C.Comics which has historically, actually always been very adaptable in terms ofthe times or at least more adaptable seemingly than Marvel. And here, what theydid was they had some hit pirate comics when their superhero line was startingto fail and they followed that path down and pirate comics became the biggestthing in the world. I thought that was great. Even more than the under-the-hoodstuff, I really loved this one. I thought it was fantastic.Justin: Yeah.That’s such a funny detail and I know we’ve talked about it before that piratecomics are so successful in this world. It’s so weird and so it reminds me of,what is it? The comic about eating, where …Alex: Chew?Justin: Chew,where the chickens are revered.Alex: Yeah.Justin: Yeah.That’s such a funny random detail of that world that doesn’t really play intothe action, at least at the beginning and so funny.Alex: Yeah.Another thing that I really like about these sections and again, I’ll cop tothe fact that I pretty much skipped over them the first time that I readWatchmen is how good Alan Moore is at writing in different styles, which Ithink is an incredibly different thing to do. Specifically, I find a lot oftimes when people try to do the Watchmen thing of having back matter, it feelslike a comic book writer tried to do it. You know, my day job is writing news,so certainly I focus on that and I get very picky about that. But when somebodywho is not a news writer writes a news article in a comic book, it always feelssuper off. It does not feel like something anybody would actually write.Alex: Butthe under-the-hood sections feel like a dishy tell-all autobiography. Thissection writing about the pirate comics really does feel like a super scholarlylook into the history of comics. Again, not that it’s a huge revelation thatAlan Moore is a good writer, but I’ve been very impressed to read those just interms of the different voices that he puts throughout them.Justin: Yeah,the specificities. Cool.Pete: Italso reminds me since we also talk about other comics, it reminds me ofHickman’s X-Men run where it’s you’re getting a lot more layers to what’shappening and there’s actual just writing in between the art and real comic.Alex: Doyou think he ripped off Hickman’s X-Men run?Pete: Yeah.I definitely think Alan Moore ripped off Hickman. Yeah. Yeah.Justin: AlanMoore just texted me and he said he did.Alex: Ohwow. I love how he always does exactly what we’re talking about even thoughwe’re not here. That’s why he’s my pink champagne buddy.Justin: That’sthe weirdest thing is since we’re recording this separately over Skype, he isSkyped into this call, he’s just not saying anything.Alex: Ican see your face buddy.Justin: That’sjust [crosstalk Alex: Ican see your face.Justin: He’staking … Yeah.Alex: Oh,I love that guy. If you would like to support our podcastpatreon.com/comicbookclub, also we do a live show every Tuesday night at p.m. at the People’s Improv Theater Loft in New York, and I will chat with youabout Watchmen. A couple of different places socially you can check out thispodcast. Pete you remember what the Facebook page is?Pete: Nope.Slam.Alex: Great.It’s watchmanwatchpodcast on Facebook and Instagram. Justin, you want to plugthat Twitter?Justin: Yes.It is … our Twitter is comicbooklive and the Watchmen one is watchmenwatch1,is that right?Pete: Yeah.I know there’s a 1 in there.Alex: Thereis a 1 in there. Also, we didn’t do this on the first couple episodes, did wantto give a shout out to Jeff Solomon who wrote the theme music for the show.Justin: Yeah.So good.Alex: Youcan check him out on Instagram at megajerf. That’s his Instagram address. It’smostly pictures of beautiful food and cocktails he made, but he writes goodmusic, as well. So thank you, Jeff, for doing that.Pete: ThanksJeff.Alex: Checkus out at comicbooklive.com for this podcast and more. Our podcast is now liveeverywhere so please be sure to subscribe to the specific podcast feed, iTunes,Android, Spotify, Stitcher, app of your choice. Particularly on iTunes, if youwouldn’t mind going over and rating it and leaving us a comment, that would bemuch appreciated. And remember, we taped this podcast 35 minutes ago.Justin: ByeAlan. Oh you’ll be here next … He just texted me. He’ll definitely be herenext week and he means it.The post Watchmen Watch: Issue #5, “Fearful Symmetry” appeared first on Comic Book Club.Support the show: https://www.patreon.com/comicbookclubAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy
