Some of the highest-output rural counties in the country are losing population, even as public lands get pitched as the answer to everything from housing to the national debt. Mark Haggerty of the Center for American Progress and Dr. Megan Lawson of Headwaters Economics, two economists who study what public lands do for the communities next door, join Bill and Anders to sort out what the numbers actually say.

They cover why automation and stagnant wages have hollowed out extractive jobs, the "amenity trap" that can price teachers out of thriving outdoor towns, why selling public land is a weak fix for housing affordability, and what happened to the economy around Grand Staircase-Escalante after designation. Haggerty also lays out a proposal to replace annual federal payments to counties with a permanent fund, and both guests take on whether making the economic case for wild places risks losing the moral one.

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Full show notes and links at our website, thewildidea.com.