Below is an auto-generated transcript: 


Hey, Kim. 


Hello. 


The funny thing is that I actually never call you Kim. 


That's true. You've made up a long list of names for me besides my actual name. 


Um, Yeah. That's funny because I call you Hamaha. when would I ever call you, Kim? 


I know, I sort of feel that way too. I mean, you decided to change your name and I was like, Yeah, I mean, I rarely say your actual name anyway, so it works out. 


Yeah. But when I changed my name, you started calling me Mish more because It's kind of cute. 


Not that I'm saying that my name is cute. I'm saying that it 


no, 


to be my 


no. Own it. Yep. You're cute. . You're so cute. Mish is perfect 


Anyway, how are you doing today? 


I'm a little sick, a little tired, but excited to talk to you again. 


I'm excited that you're on the show again. Why are you, why are you sick? What happened? 


What day is it today? 


Today is Halloween, so we've done a lot of building up to and having a long weekend for our kids to have Halloween. 


Yes, which is fun. We went to the street in our city, which was absolutely packed. And when I used to live in the Netherlands and I saw movies about, Halloween, I always saw these streets filled and packed with kids. 


But I never actually saw that in real life in 10 years. And this was the first time that I actually saw the streets fully packed. 


Fall leaves children laughing. 


Yes, it was good. It was overwhelming for three minutes. But then I kind of felt okay and it 


every parent slightly wonders if they're gonna lose a child, but we made it. 


Yeah, yeah, yeah. Scary. Um, but also awesome. And you have a throat ache and you're still here on the show. What's with that? 


I must love you. 


You must love me. So last week we were gonna go live, however, I had e coli. Darn hipster. Buck Choy 


Those veggies will get you every time. 


Yeah. What's with that? 


Yeah. You were pretty sad and miserable, and I think we're all happy that you didn't try to record anything while you were feeling that way. 


Well, I don't remember a lot from that day, but you told me funny stories afterwards. 


Yes. I think we should have Wendy back on for some trauma responses to things, but I think you were definitely checked out for most of that. But we were out of state. You made it on a plane, you made it awful blame and you're, you live to tell the tale. 


Well, all I can say Indianapolis Airport and Dallas Airports great job because I heard that I was pushed in a wheelchair, because I could not walk because I felt that bad. And they just took care of me. 


They took care of me through security. They took care of me to get out of the plane. It was pretty amazing. 


Yeah. I mean, this episode's all about circling back on some things that you've already had going on in the podcast and on your Instagram and things, and I think. 


Talking about you're real about making churches safe. Some people did a great job of making you feel safe in the airport For sure. And they didn't have to emphasize certain things that they chose to, um, just to make you feel comfortable. So yeah, they did a great job. 


I just remember feeling. Terrible physically, but feeling pretty safe all along. Uh, Soto was nice, although you at some point were afraid that people were gonna think that you were kidnapping me. 


Yeah. I mean, I guess nobody can assume anything, right? So they probably thought, Well, this is just how she is in life. 


I mean, we're strangers, but knowing that you would never be silent and you would never be nodding off in the middle of a event like getting to the airport. It just felt to me like you. Weekend at Bernie's, I'm pushing a body around and someone's gonna start questioning me, but for, for better or for worse, nobody did. 


So it worked out 


great. Let's go . Anyway, today's episode, Kim and I, wanted to respond to some reels that I have posted over the last couple of months. So a short little background. I was talking with my advising professor for my doctorate, And he said, You're doing something to be like publicly known, right? Because if you're gonna publish anything that you write, you wanna make sure that people already follow you. And I'm like, I am 40. I don't have a popular Instagram or whatever. So we talked about trying to get myself out there. 


My ideas a little bit out there. So I think in June or so, I started an Instagram account and started posting reels. And the whole idea was to just share a little bit what goes on in my brain, whether it has to do with trans issues or inclusive leadership or mental models. I'm still trying to figure it out. 


But Instagram specifically has been interesting because of the comments that we've gotten. So Kim and I decided that it would be great if we could do a little response to some comments that we got on my videos. And I say Instagram specifically because I never get weird stuff on TikTok. It is only on Instagram, right? So I post a video, I pour out my heart and I get the most vile comments. Sometimes I have to even remove them, or sometimes they just get filtered by Instagram because they're so hateful. But on TikTok, I only get love. 


So I dunno what's with that, but that's pretty awesome. Kim wanted to start us off with this video that I just posted a week ago, right? 


Yeah. So talking about, how to make safe spaces in the church and that kind of thing, move beyond Welcome. 


And it was, I think we all were a little taken aback that the first comment that was posted on a video like that for a little background, 


the goal of the Real was to talk about how church building specifically could be more safe for people who are walking in with trauma or who have walked in, and don't traditionally feel comfortable in churches. and within it, you tell a little story. 


Let's listen to it together. Some tangible I think it's really because felt very By the way, all when I was still on Reddit, medicine continues 


So you describe that story in the grocery store and I'm gonna go out on a limb and say, 


women 


have experienced that in some form or another, immediately after you got home and told me that, I thought, Well, yeah, I think when I was 14 or 15 that happened to me. 


I know a lot of women who have had somebody walking behind them or, keeping an eye on them in a store and it's uncomfortable. And then the comment that took a SOA back was, it's not my responsibility to keep you safe. If you're walking around in short shorts and heels, you are trying to call attention to yourself and you never know what kind of attention you'll receive. 


So maybe you shouldn't be calling attention to yourself, there's a lot to unpack in that one. It's a woman posting, which is a little bit of a, woman on woman crime to be pointing fingers in that way. for this purpose, I think I, we will assume that she's not saying you as a trans individual shouldn't call attention to yourself, but rather it seems like a broader, no one should wear short shorts or heels or else they are going to get this attention and should just be okay with it, which I just find interesting. 


I think women especially have this responsibility for each other. We have all experienced this in some way or another. with a hundred percent confidence believe that this person who posted has experienced something uncomfortable, in that regard. So it's very, 


interesting. We 


just have a responsibility really to come up for each other. 


to say it how it is that that kind of behavior is not okay. no matter what, shock and awe and somebody does a double take is an entirely a different thing than somebody saying, I I now have the right to follow somebody around. it's a different level for sure. So for me, in a lot of the things that you have posted or have done podcasts on, it's been really interesting to think about the role that fellow women kind of play in these different situations. you know, Matt, are you talking about women having need of these shelters and these spaces? 


it's kind of often overlooked that they, they come with children often, so it's this support needed, for women to understand how women are experiencing those situations. and two, I just find it especially striking, Jen talked about experiences in purity culture, and we talk a lot about different situations within the Christian Church and it's interesting that these things that repressed and these things that do a significant amount of damage in those spaces, women are, are complicit with it. 


Women participate in perpetuating these situations and these things that are not okay. So it's been good to reflect and dive into those kinds of things and to think about, as a woman, what systems or, ways have that things have always been, do I continue to allow to happen around me because that's just always how it's been. 


Thanks for sharing that. I also wanted to point out, we talked about this the other day, what a random opportunity is for me to have this experience. Like let's put this out there right away. It was a horrible experience. 


I hated feeling chased by somebody, disclosed by, but also understanding that so many women go through debts on a regular basis and men will never know that feeling. Period. 


Yeah, for sure. 


it was such a rare view behind the curtain of understanding how much this world was created for men, because Most men don't have to deal with these situation, like somebody chasing them around in a, in a grocery store. . This world is built for men. The, the narrative is surrounded around what men think. And whenever these issues are being brought to lights, men will less likely to take this serious because they cannot actually feel the empathy of Oh yeah, I totally see how terrible that is, because they have no idea how this feels. 


Yeah, definitely. I think the struggle is whenever anyone's in the majority is that, you know, I watched a great TED Talk, I taken a lot of resources for my job. So, you know, I'm a little bit of a cliche walking cliche. I have all the podcasts on my mind, but, um, podcasts and. So there was a TED Talk and it was great because the gentleman who did it was a middle aged white man who was speaking to those like him, middle aged white men. 


And I think his takeaway is good for all situations with all of these different identities that people carry, which is acknowledge that what you are is one of many, not the standard by which we compare other people to. 


Meaning I'll use myself as an example. You know, I am a white 30 something woman. I need to be careful not to judge everybody's experience, achievement, understanding lens. Through my experience, I am one of many. The right answer is not. How would Kim have taken that? How, how would Kim have appreciated being treated that way? 


because we're just not all the same in a very beautiful way. We're not all the same, and so we're gonna experience things differently. Even the same situation differently. I've referenced being followed. It was obviously not nice. but at the same time, I have an innate sense that I'm still safe in most places. 


I remember not thinking that it was gonna escalate to anything. I had the privilege of being in a target in the middle of the day, and my mom's across the store and there are other people here, and nothing in my mind suggested that that could go anywhere dangerous. And I think it's important to acknowledge that for other people, if they were in the same situation coming from different backgrounds, holding those intersectional identities within themselves, it could have been experienced in a much different way. 


Still so scary. Why? Why do people have to be like that? 


Because when they think they are the standard, then they can set the behavior that's acceptable. 


I think, what's that saying? 


It's okay if you think or fantasize about people, but make sure that it stays in your head. I, I disagree. Because if you have fantasies about women, say you're a man and you have fantasies about women, and it just stays in your head, it's, it will stay isolated. The moment that you say things out loud, that's when it starts sinking in. 


How ridiculous those things sound. And also, even if you only think or look at women in a certain way and you're thinking, Yeah, but I'm not doing anything. I'm just looking. vibe is tangible. At least to me. I can see it when guys do it to other people, and now I can tangibly feel it done to me. 


Yeah. Yeah. 


And we've known people in varying degrees of closest to us that have acted on things. And there was a bit of a shock in awe of, oh my goodness, I can't believe they did that. But that's not, that moment that they decided to act in that way was not the first time that they wanted to act that way, if that makes sense. 


Mm-hmm. . So as much as we, as witnesses can say, Oh my goodness, that's not how they are. They're not like that. Their thought life has been like that for a while, I would say. Yeah. 


Yeah. And then your old church had this conference. where they invited a men who detransition. So he was born male, then he transitioned to female and he detransition to male. And this happens and I have zero, objections for people who do that. 


And they have their own reasons, right? 


Everyone is allowed to live their life. 


Everyone is allowed to live their life. But then, I created a real, and this is the real, happened last 


Yeah. So we sort of heard that that had happened 


And, 


and we've gone through that church for like a year when I just moved to America, right? 


Yeah. Yeah. And, and before that I went there for, you know, 20 odd years. So 


whew. 


I had been there a long time, but hadn't recently. And we heard that this sort of weekend workshop leading into sermon had happened, all around, quote unquote real identity. 


And then, we had, we had been somewhat warned that maybe some people we knew had been there and there was sort of some follow up activities, if you will, for those who had attended. and so we were wondering if we would be subject to some of those follow up activities. And lo and behold, maybe a week later, um, we received a package on our porch. 


It was addressed from a PO box in North Carolina, I believe, and opened it, and it was this gentleman's book, concerning, being saved from being trans, for lack of a better phrase. And so many thoughts happened when I opened it. full disclosure, I, I didn't not tell meh, but I sort of . It was a very hard week for a lot of reasons. 


She was finishing her master's, finals, all of that. So I said, You know what? This is a later conversation. but I had a lot of thought thoughts when I opened it. And, one of them chiefly speaking on the topic of helping people feel safe was safety. now, Some group that we don't know, certainly don't feel safe around to have our personal home address. 


We're on a list somewhere, and honestly, I wanna say in these times, but probably in all times, that's not a safe position to be in. 


So it felt very vulnerable. and then added to the layers that it of course must have been somebody who we know, that did it. So they, they willingly kind of gave up our personal information, to this organization. 


And it speaks to the ignorance that people have. Talking again about intersectionality, you can say, Well, you know, I've been vulnerable in situations or, 


Whatever. But then I'm sure the senders would say, Well, I don't care who has our address. 


I'm safe, uh, no matter who may have my address. but they don't have to think about things that we as a family think about. 


So it was a really prime example of 


Somebody 


who I'm sure had the best intentions, but were just ignorant in many things when it came to us and how to approach us, 


I am afraid in my home, and you guys hear me speak through a microphone right now with my podcast voice, and I feel generally great. I feel euphoric. I'm so happy with my transition, but I am afraid every day so that somebody has my address. 


It doesn't just make it, it, it better, It's, it's terrifying. And let's look at those stats again. Right? Like 50% of trans women report that they have been a victim of trans hate. 10% of trans women have reported that they've been beaten up. 


if I interpret those statistics, that means that 10%, one in 10 trans people will be beaten up because they're trans. I don't feel safe. This is an active conversation that I'm in therapy for. we are talking about getting a dog for that reason so that I could go outside and feel safe. 


Yeah, and it's, I mean, it's not a little bit ironic that the group of people as a whole that we're talking about that just don't understand, that will take measures themselves to feel safe preemptively try to stop policy from happening, et cetera, et cetera. Because under the banner of I want to feel safe, but then really have no understanding of what other people holding other identities, oftentimes multiple identities have to deal with on a regular basis. 


regular Right. Yeah. 


Even thinking about those policies, I didn't even think about that because it's those same people that would be very anti-immigration because that makes them feel unsafe. 


I, you, you know, I'm wondering how many cases of illegal immigrants violence these people have suffered. I'm not saying that I'm not empathetic to people's fears. That's not at all what I'm saying. 


There's always a, a example or an outlier of why you should probably be 


Right? Right. 


But I don't feel safe every day, and I'm pretty certain that most trans people that I know don't feel safe every single day. So let's say I am a lost soul. Let's say I need to be saved by Jesus. This is not a strategy that is working. 


Yes. Sort of a forced exposure therapy will just make you as vulnerable and uncomfortable as possible until you, like most of the 2% that do detransition as youth at least do not out of wanting to do that, but external pressure. 


So there's no wonder if you feel unsafe if you start hearing those statistics. And if you think, Well, if that's gonna be my life, I'm, I'm not going to deal with this. 


This also leads into the last two reels that I made about the legislation against trans youth. that is going on right now. And this does not affect me directly because I'm a trans adult, I guess. But the legislation that over 30 


lawmakers 


tried to push a law that was essentially a nationwide, don't say gay bill. 


it will never pass. But the fact that there are 30 lawmakers, over 30 lawmakers that are willing to go this far, those are elected officials that want to have something like that nationwide. And then my last real, where I talked about. That Florida went ahead, gave the Florida Medical Board an okay to ban transgender care period for minors. 


So if you are on puberty blockers, you, you are 16 years old and you've been on puberty blockers for two years, you have to stop that. That's such a horrible feeling. So we are already feeling unsafe. The trans community feels unsafe. We already feel alone. Now we feel attacked. How is this helping us? 


Yeah, it's that whole idea of, you know, we talk about a lot in our family, the importance of love your neighbor and that being sort of, The greatest, commandment that we've been given, second only to loving God, right? So how is that showing love? And I think the argument would probably be, well, we're, we're doing what's best for them. 


but you either believe in the authority and the responsibility of parents guardians, or you don't. You either believe that people have been given their children and have a right and responsibility to know them and care for them, or you don't. And so the argumentation that, well, that parent just doesn't know what's the best option. 


right? 


Falls apart rather quickly. the same people who, you know, those 30 lawmakers would never in their life want somebody else to tell them how to raise their children. I, I assume they have children and they would not stand for anyone saying, Well, see you just in this instance, don't understand what's best for your 


Yeah. And this is the frustrating part, right? Because there's a whole attack on this is not what we went in public schools and we don't want to expose our kids to, trans identities and homosexualities because it's so inappropriate. 


but this comes from a group that's overwhelmingly Bible literate, right? They go to churches, to bible churches, evangelical churches, and they learn things at Sunday School. But the stories in the Bible are terrible. Again, I, I feel like I always have to clarify. I, I love the Bible. I love the stories in the Bible. 


I love to learn from it. I feel that the Bible is authoritative over my life, but the stories in the Bible are terrible. I mean, we're talking about content warning guys. We're talking about lots daughters sleeping with their father because there wouldn't be an heir. 


We're talking about Gideon sacrificing his daughter because he made a bet with God. We're talking about babies being smashed against rocks. We're talking about biblical porn in the Song of Solomon. That's all okay to expose our kids to, but it's not okay to expose our kids to your kindergarten teacher is gay, and you talked with them about, Hey, are you married? 


Well, I'm married to my husband, or I'm married to my wife. We cannot talk about that. 


Well, it's not a big leap, right? We talk about how the culture around raising your kids is from a very young age is talking about purity, and that demands talking about things that are very sexual. There's a sexualization piece to those who are very young in the church that kind of sets that tone. 


So it's not surprising that they sexualize other teens, those in the LGBTQ community because it's, it's not a very big leap. 


That is so frustrating. 


Exactly. Like you say it. As if the LGBTQ community are only having sex every single day, and we need to make sure that we don't talk about 


There's no suburban families taking kids to soccer practice. It's only, you know, high media's take on the community. 


I think there's a safety in believing that you've got certain things figured out. And I can, again, only speak for myself, but what I have noticed growing up in a, you know, Evangelical Bible church is I think largely with very good intentions. They wanted to prepare people, so there are. Lines that you're given. 


And there are arguments that you're given as sort of these are, they're kind of given to you in a plug and play way. Well, if anyone brings up this point, then you just say this. Or well, you know, they'll say that, but just give them this Bible verse and then they'll get it. You know, they'll be persuaded. And that's the methodology. And you know, from personal experience, it leads to a lot of embarrassing moments. 


I've had those moments in life where. It sounded so reasonable in my youth group, in my church, whatever it was, and then to step out into the real world and school and other situations and, and say that out loud and see people's faces just looking like you're not making any sort of point right now, that's, that's not reasonable or that's not relevant to what we're talking about. 


It really was eye opening to realize like, maybe there's a time and place for me to listen. so I think there's just an element of, Oh, oh, I solved that one. My, my particular flavor of faith solves that one. So I can just give that to you right here. Here. Look, here's the answer to that question. I think that's one. I think the other thing in all of that is not simply that it's hard to break something down, but that it's threatening to break something down. 


I think when it comes to something as close to us and as valuable to us as faith, there's a level of feeling threatened 


Yeah. 


that if one thing is wrong, then all might be wrong. And what does that mean? Will my world come crumbling down if that one thing I thought was one way is a different. Like, Oh my goodness, God actually loves people who are like that 


And I have not been living my life in that way. can be a very hard moment for a lot of people and it causes a lot of defensiveness. 


I'd say. I also have to understand that, you know, as a background to, to those who listen to this episode, I don't believe in an erry, 


Tell the people what's in errancy in a nutshell. 


okay. 


So in ancy, is the belief that the Bible is without error in its original autographs and I just don't believe it. 


However, whenever I engage in these discussions, I put myself on that plane. Because I know a lot of people do believe in an ancy. So in order to have a, a meaningful conversation about it, I cannot just tell somebody who has a conversation with me, Hey meh. The bible says that homosexuality's a sin. 


And I will say, Well, I don't believe in an ancy, so I just don't care that you say that. That's not a way to have a discussion. So I put myself on the plane so we can have meaningful conversation. But even if I would adopt, like consider an errancy, a robe or, or glasses, even if I put on those glasses and I talk as if I believe in an erry, I still don't get to these conclusions. 


and I've done a lot of studies and I provide a lot of background of why I think a certain way. So I gotta understand that that's what I do and I have those expectations from other people. So, What I'm trying to say here is this kind of is my personality and, and you know it, you're my wife 


when 


love a good back and forth. 


I love a good back and forth, but I also have high expectations of people. So if I put in say, Oh, I studied this for a decade. these are my findings, and somebody just says, Well, the Bible still says homosexuality is a sin. I just get disappointed in humanity. It kind of hurts my hearts that there are people that don't want to think this through. 


So yes, I hear you about that fear part. And I also understand that there's strolls people that just enjoy. 


they'll always be those, 


right? Yes, there will always be those, but there's still a group of people. that is not willing to engage in that level. And that's when I'm looking at pastors. 


Because if you've gone through your Sunday school and afterwards you're in the service and you hear your pastor and your youth pastor and your peers constantly bashing homosexuals as if they're sinful, why would you not believe that? How is that even a conservative Christian if you Will's fault? 


So something super interesting that I think would be right in line with talking about this idea of, the threatening nature of what if something, one thing in my faith is wrong. 


I think really comes down to like what is it that makes Christianity what it is? and to put it a different way, what things about your faith are to be very Christian 


salvation issues. I think conservative Christians as a whole have really pinned salvation life and death going to heaven when we die on things that God never asked us to make that foundational, you know, His existence and his desire to be loved by us. 


And there's the existence of the Messiah and who I believe was, you know Jesus Christ at that time. But we want to pin so much more on so many other parts of the faith, and I think it would be very interesting to examine some of the models that we have, our understandings of what the Christian faith really 


understanding. Mm. get a theologian on the show and talk about this 


stuff. 


I think maybe you know, a few 


Yeah. I would love to talk about that because we already talked a little bit about how would you know something is true like epistemology and there's rules for that. Th there's, this is a well thought out subject, and then we have what's necessary for salvation because let's turn this all upside down. 


Let's say I'm completely. Let's say I'm trans and because I'm trans, I go to hell. 


does that mean that people should treat me this way? Or does that mean that people should invite me to their homes even more? 


Yeah, I mean, there's a whole rippling effect when you start to consider what actually is important that touches on all of the things we just talked 


we just mm-hmm 


It talks about how we view people like women. How do we treat people like women? How do we treat members of the LGBTQ community? All of those things. 


In faith spaces really are predicated on what we believe our faith is and what we think our faith is dictating us to do. 


All right, if you know me and you're a theologian, you may get a phone call from me because I think we need to unpack this, I look forward to it. Thank you so much for being on the show again, Kim, 


any time, all you have to do is turn around in our house and ask me. 


That's right. for those who are wondering, I'm still wearing my princess outfit because we just came back from trick or treating. You actually took off your Dragon costume. 


Talk about mental models. If you say someone in our household is a princess for Halloween, it is not maybe what some of you would think the member was, but when the two year old says, You will beat this for Halloween, all you can do is comply. 


That's right. Her face is way too cutes.