Below is an automatically generated transcript

Intro

You sort of rummaged in. All of my stacks were going everywhere in my little trinkets that I had in the drawer. And I said something to the effect of, you are such a guy. And I distinctly remember the violent reaction you had to that. Just rarely, if ever, have spoken to me like that before or since. But your response was, you don't talk to me like that. With the follow-up of I'm very uncomfortable being grouped in with men in that phrasing or in that way.

Welcome

Welcome to the models. We live by podcast. The podcast that explores how overcoming the mental models we all hold on to can help us grow to become better people

Chapter 1 - Who is Kim

Today on my podcasts, Kim Van Essen and Kim van Essen is very dear to me, mostly because she's my wife. She's extremely intelligent. She always encourages me to be the best version of myself. She's a great mother to my two children, and perhaps the biggest deal currently in my life is that she's still with me, even though I transitioned into a woman. So, Kim, can you introduce yourself? Hi, I'm so excited to be the first guest on the models we live by podcast. You and I have a lot of really great conversations at home around all of these different topics, so I'm excited to get to it, and hopefully, other people will enjoy listening in. So who is Kim exactly? What is it that you do? Or perhaps, more importantly, you do vocational work. You help people explore what they are in real life. So what are you really in life? Yeah, I feel like we do many roles all the time, right? So I like leading with wife and mother. That's a big vocation that I live in. I also work for a non-profit and I consult and Coach on the side as well. So but mostly all of my work encompasses this idea of understanding your identity. What does it mean to achieve your own well-being? And how can we all work together to achieve those for each other? So those are some big things that you stated right there. Would you be able to distill that down to a couple of words? Yes, so there's this idea of vocation, which just means calling, what's your purpose? Why are you walking this earth? And for some, that's exactly also what you call work during the day. But for others, work is something practical that needs to be done and your calling is what you do outside of that space. So I would say I'm pretty happy to embrace wife and mother. Those are some callings that I have. I'm also very fortunate that the work and the school that I do also very much feels like callings that I have in my life. So all that to say that those are pretty big hefty things and sometimes oftentimes people need help figuring those out for themselves. That's pretty great. I also want to note that she's the main breadwinner in our family. She allows me to be a doctoral student and work on what I'm doing right now. Meanwhile, she works full time and is doing a master's in culturally responsive leadership at VCU here in Richmond. And on top of that, she's one of the three partners of Equinox consulting, where she's also a management consultant.

Chapter 2 - how is Kim doing with all of this?

So the reason why Kim is the first guest is that the first episode was about how I invited all you guys in. And a question that I often gets is how I'm doing with all of this. And sometimes it's a very genuine question, like people are concerned about, hey, you guys, are you guys still good? And sometimes people just want to be in the know. They just want to know, is Kim still married to you? Is Kim now lesbian? Did she notice all the time, etc., et cetera. So Kim, can you explain how my transition specifically the last year has been for you? Yeah, I always like to give a lot of people credit. It was a bit unfortunate timing that as me and I were working out what all of this meant for us at home, I took a break from social media. So in a lot of ways people thought that I disappeared, but I didn't. I was there. I was just taking a much needed mental health break from looking at other people's lives and focusing on our lives. So I understand where some curiosity and concern came from. So the last year of working through meshes, discoveries and decisions around transitioning, really I have the advantage now. So we're a year in and I think I have the advantage of seeing that it went as probably about as smoothly and healthily as something so dramatic could go in a lot of ways. So from my perspective, it did feel, you know, initially a bit of a surprise as you shared in the last episode. Thankfully, we can joke about it now, but as the podcast goes on, you might become aware that Miesha is a very all in person, really all in person. So as she was having these revelations and understanding. Exactly what she had been doing to herself over the last decade. It was very much a well, now I want it all. I want to be who I am. I know who that is and I'm going to go for it. And that was a definite moment where I felt taken aback. And I think we're going to talk a little bit more a little bit later about this. But a big part of my reflection on this last year is also that Mitch had an awareness that that's not the healthiest way to go about bringing somebody along to say, you know, we're doing it all and we're doing it now. So, um, I think a big part of my reflection of this last year is also to see that Mitch acknowledged, hey, this is a big thing and it's not something that you expected and let's walk through it together. I like how you shared. I kind of dropped it on you. We talked about it after I recorded the podcast and I let you listen to it and like, wow, I kind of set you up. Like it's like, oh, by the way, we're going to have date nights. I want to talk about my transition. And then we had date nights and then I just brought it up. Looking back at, it's a year later, I'm like, wow, I kind of surprise you with all of this. Can you share what your biggest struggle was? I think if you really want to bring it to a measure of the hardest thing I think really happens at the very beginning. So it was wrestling with this sort of tension of I both knew and accepted that you had hid things from yourself. So it was not a matter of thinking or wanting this every day for hour at that time, nine years of marriage and deciding to keep it from me, but rather you realized what had been happening. And then let me into that knowing. But a very human part of me thought. You've had nine years, and why has this not been a real conversation in those nine years? So that really dominated a lot of our early conversations. Was the head knowledge that you were doing the best you could with the information you let yourself think about, but the heart knowledge that we very humbly, I think we have a very transparent relationship and a very close relationship. So dealing with the heart idea that there was something going on in you that I didn't know about, I'm feeling what you're saying. I closeted myself more and more. Remember when I had that moment, like two or three years ago where I said, you know what? I'm done with all this gender ambiguity. And I just want to be a man. I'm really happy to be a man. If you compare that period of time and the feelings that you had then with like last year when I said the exact opposites, how does that make you feel? I remember something along the lines of, you make me feel comfortable living as a man. And I don't I honestly don't remember how I took it back then, but I can look back now and think that was very much a joy and peace with us as whoever we are. I think that you just find a comfort in where with the people that we were meant to be with, you found a peace in that. So it did feel a little bit like where did this come from? Because, you know, this is a very small area of our lives that we didn't regularly reflect on. So what I had to go on was what was verbalized a lot of times. So if I think about thinking through what has me said about that in the last nine years, oh, well, the majority is certain behaviors or interactions make me uncomfortable. And then a lot of, yeah, I'm finding myself in this role that I have to take on. So it was very different when the message flipped about a year ago when it was, no, I really can't do this anymore. I like how you phrase that. Because that's true. I really feel like your person I feel like your spouse today. I would say I really feel like your wife. I think we were in such a place in our life that I just was reflecting on life in general and thinking, wow, I'm just so happy in the place that I'm at right now. And you make me feel a certain way. You make me feel like I want to pursue romantically as a woman. I don't think I quite understood what that meant. Gender wise, I feel the same today. I want to pursue as a person, as my wife, as the person that I love and the person that I'm romantically interested in. And I think it's important to keep touching on the things that you shared previously, which was there are a lot of other things that go on within you besides struggling with the big issue at hand. Right so your to transition or not what is my identity question was mixed up with a lot of other things with depression and immigrating and just a lot, a lot for one person to hold within themselves. So I hadn't ever quite thought about it this way, but I think it is very much like let's look back and be grateful and find joy that parts of your life found that joy in peace. So your identity question and your transition desires, all of those we know now, we're kind of suppressed, but that your depression, really, you put a lot of work into that and we were able to find another side to reach the other side in a lot of really hard things. While it's sad to think that some things weren't getting attention that needed to, it is good to look back and realize that other hard things were. We're getting a lot of really healthy attention and changing for you. So I don't want to linger too long on this topic, but I still want to bring up my gender non-conforming stage. But then again, I also want to note that we never really called it gender non-conforming. There's just words that we have in 2022 that may have existed in 2011 and 2012, but were not a word for me. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. I think that. Because we didn't have those words. And because there's really two issues at hand, when we have these conversations, right? So there's gender identity. And there is sexuality. And when the sexuality piece was settled for us because we found our people, the identity was what was left. And because we didn't have the words for a range or spectrum or options in our vocabulary, it caused us to be more ambiguous than we would have been probably today. So for instance, I distinctly remember, and I think I retold the story to you somewhat recently, that when we were dating, I'm weirdly OCD about very specific things. So I'm dating and she comes and I say, yes, I have that thing in the drawer in my room and you open the drawer and there's no dividers. But I have stacked everything neatly within this big drawer space instead of what I pictured gently sifting through each meticulous pile in this large drawer, which is an insane thing to ask of another person. I acknowledge you sort of rummaged in all of my stacks were going everywhere and my little trinkets that I had in the drawer and I said something to the effect of, you are such a guy. And I distinctly remember the violent reaction you had to that. Just rarely, if ever have spoken to me like that before or since. But your response was, you don't talk to me like that. With a follow up of I'm very uncomfortable being grouped in with men in that phrasing or in that way. So it only had to happen once. And I kind of knew och. That's fine. I think it says something about our compatibility that I only needed to know that I had no problem after that with it. You know, I never felt like, oh, but I need to acknowledge you as a man often or any of those very hyper masculine things that I think our culture, specifically our conservative Christian culture, had sort of encouraged. I managed to escape a lot of those assumptions, I guess. I managed to escape a lot of those standards that were being asked of gender roles. But that is an example of just how our interactions were, that you wanted your tastes to be acknowledged, that you liked to shop and liked to watch romantic movies. And I can't remember a time when that really bothered me, actually. So we didn't have the words for it, but we had enough communication to let each other know what was OK and what was not OK for us. That's so cringe y I don't like being reminded about. How I handled anger in the past. But it's good to be reminded. I think I've come a long way, but I want to point out that Kim is so patient and I was a very angry person when she just met me. But the moments that you had to deal with those reactions, I can't remember this specific incident. It does make me cringe a little bit that I didn't just say, hey, would you mind not saying that instead of having a violent reaction? Sorry I forgive you.

Chapter 3 - Nuance

I want to shift gears a little bit, although I typically say change gears. And then Kim has to correct me because after 10 years, I still don't know this language. But we were talking about how you were raised and you already said that certain things just didn't bother you. And I see a lot of that in your parents. Like your parents are just very kind and they're very accepting and generous and like inviting to start with. But when I think about a family that typically goes to a Bible church, that's not the mental model that I have of christians, if that makes sense. So can you tell a little bit about what mental models you had to challenge from that background without going too deep into the purity culture? Because next week our guest is Jen and she will talk about the purity culture. But what mental models did you have to overcome and what mental models do you think I had to overcome? Because a lot of things that I thought about conservative Christians are just not true in your case because your personality, because the way your parents have treated you or like your sister is by nature super accepting. Yeah, that's a lot. So I'll, I'll try to break down a bit. There were definitely standards set out in the way I was raised, particularly in the church. And the church setting I was raised in. However, I had a distinct advantage that I had parents who were very loving and wanted those things for us, but also very much didn't force anything. Now I will acknowledge that maybe my sister has another story to tell. I can't speak for everyone's perspective, but for me, I didn't have a problem with the sort of baseline things. Not drinking, not partying. I both didn't feel that I needed to be a good girl, but also didn't feel like breaking those rules. So for me it was just a pleasant upbringing. I have no bad feelings around those. So for me, if you're asking what mental models I had to break out of. It wasn't so much faith based models. I had reached a point in my own faith journey where I had realized over the last 12 years that Christian looks different for everyone believing looks different for everyone, that theology can look different for everyone, and that's OK. And it became a lot less scary than I had thought growing up. So for me, the mental models around your then husband of nine years sharing this information that they want to transition, that they are a woman, that those things are going to happen in a very kind and let's think this through together way. I will say there are two models that I can think of that, really, I had to examine and reflect and decide whether I was going to reframe. The first one is related to that hardest thing that I shared earlier, right? So the first model I had was I have a partner for life that looks a certain way, that behaves a certain way, that has this role in our family. That mental model of I will say, because it was at the time the Michelle Wright, the Michelle model was a hard one to break out of. I think especially anybody who knows that they're with the person they're going to spend their life with doesn't expect dramatic change. I think you expect evolution and hopefully healthy growth, but generally you don't expect the broad changes that happen in a gender transition that. Yes so I think for me that was the first big mental model, the first big hurdle, if you will. I had to for both our sakes, really face it head on and decide how I felt about it. Was I going to be OK if the personhood was the same? You know that underlying person who I love and enjoy spending time with, but who will look and act and behave differently? Or is the idea of that too much so an answer to that mental model? I do, at the risk of sounding redundant, need to say that Mitch was incredibly careful with me around those things. So to have a mental model in front of me hearing that it will change, but also hearing that it will change at the pace and amount that I'm comfortable with was a game changer for me in reframing that idea. It's not. The right thing for everyone in these positions. But for us, we constantly reiterated our marriage comes first. I will be honest that it hurts me to think of not transitioning, but I do not hold that over you if you decide any or all of these steps is too much for you. So there was still struggles around that mental model because we didn't have the crystal ball to know what the future held. Everything still kind of stayed ambiguous, but the reframing process ended up being a good one because we had that communication. And because we started on a foundation of we're in this together and we're going to figure it out together. The second mental model that I had a hard time with was around myself. The obvious first part of the conversation was how it affected me. She's the one going through the pain and the struggle. She's the one who has this desire to transition to who she is, all of those things. But my mental model for myself was, what does this mean about my identity? So as I shared, what I do in a lot of facets of my life is concerning identity for people. It can be disconcerting when you think maybe I am not the person I thought I was. I am a cisgender heterosexual person who knows who they are and who they like and all of those things. And then thinking, well, my partner for life is not going to fit that identity anymore. My answer for that mental model is a non-answer, and I will tell you why I decided that it didn't matter to me what label any of those things had. I in generalities who and what I like and how I feel. However, I do know that I love and I am attracted to this woman named maisch. Sometimes reframing a mental model looks like I'm OK with this breaking down and not necessarily building back up again. So that's a harder one when you come to the details and practicalities that we won't get into about a relationship. But I will say I have a true piece that we may not look like what I thought my marriage at 2550 years will look like, but I'm OK with that. It sounds like you're suggesting some sort of sexual preference binary that is limiting to you and you refuse to adhere to it. I think accounting for emotional, physical, mental well-being and health of everybody involved, it's only to people's detriment if you don't go by what you feel, but rather what people want to call you.

Chapter 4 - False Dichotomies

This kind of fits in excellently with another topic that you wanted to discuss false dichotomies or thinking that things have to be Black and white. Can you share a little bit about that? Yes in one of my capacities in life, I am a life design coach. One of the things I've embraced in communicating with others is this idea of what kind of problems do you have? And by that I mean, is it a problem truly with no solution, or are you presenting it as a problem with no solution? You have a quote-unquote man and a woman, and the man says, I'm truly a woman. I'm going to transition. It's assumed that then the relationship must be over, but that truly is presenting a problem before you've had a chance to explore solutions. This dichotomy is only a need of exploration. So for us we had a lot of different topics that we had to dive into together and it's not comfortable for sure. Often in these situations, it's not nice to think that you have to linger for any length of time on these uncomfortable things. But we had to talk about intimacy and communication and what our life will look like, what our friends and family will think. There were a lot of layers to go through, and for us, the resulting conclusion that we came to was that this is an over-comfortable situation. Well thank you so much for your time. And your willingness to be on this show. Thank you for having me. It's been so good to have you here. You are the one that encouraged me to actually pursue this and the fact that you came on here on episode two to be there with me and share your story. Just means a lot to me. Yeah, likewise. The English to Dutch translation is not great, but I do always insist on saying that I'm proud of you and good job speaking of mental models, good job. Sounds a little bit condescending to Europeans. I don't know if all Europeans are the same, but Americans have these colloquialisms like, there you go. I don't know. I never use that in context of anything else than a puppy. Here we are, just breaking down mental models and language barriers left and right. Absolutely well, next year, if we have aired the 52nd episode of the podcast, would you want to come again and reflect on another year of living with a trans woman? I'm looking forward to it. This has been the models we live by podcasts.

Outro

Thank you for listening. And if you enjoy this content it would mean a lot to me if you look me up on Instagram or TikTok as Mitch Benson. The music is by yeast and the song is called floor. Looking forward to sharing with you again next time.