Kate speaks to writer, playwright and actor Brendan Cowell. And okay, maybe she fangirls a bit. They discuss creativity in lockdown, toxic masculinity, poetry, football, success and the writing of Cowell's latest novel, PLUM. They are also joined by Brendan's mum, Yvonne Cowell, who is ace.

Check out show notes for this episode on our website www.thefirsttimepodcast.com or get in touch via Twitter (@thefirsttimepod) or Instagram (@thefirsttimepod).

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