Did Israel starve Gaza, and why don't many Israelis believe the experts who say it did? Noam sits down with Alex de Waal, the world's leading famine scholar (World Peace Foundation, Tufts), for a tough but good-faith debate. De Waal argues that Israel could have ended the hunger "within a matter of days" and didn't. Noam lays out why people like him stay skeptical. Did his March 2024 warning that "tens of thousands" could die not come true? Why did a claim of 62,413 starvation deaths circulated with little pushback. They get into Mike Spagat's mortality survey and the missing child deaths, the 2025 blockade and the IPC famine call, flour prices, Hamas and aid, and whether it's still famine if people aren't dying. Both of them give ground along the way. Periel closes on the hostages, and de Waal ends with a plea about Sudan.