It wasn’t my intention when I booked this interview with Verena Debnar, but once we got chatting the idea of animals being a metaphor for our own human experience came alive. I loved exploring this with Verena, and also talking about her work with animals, her work with her partner around the subject of money, and her own exploration of being an entrepreur.

It’s a wide-ranging interview. Enjoy!

In the introduction to the show, I mention this blog post from Barbara Patterson which talks about the spiritual nature of transformation.

You can listen to the podcast by pressing play above, or listen on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast app, or watch the video here. Below are the show highlights and full transcript.

Show Notes

• Working in animal communication
• The remembering feeling when learning about the Three Principles
• Slowing down to connect with the peace that is at our core
• Lessons from animals about letting Thought flow through us without getting attached to it

Resources mentioned in this episode

• Michael Neill’s website
• Creating the Impossible book

You can find Verena at Meinnachsterschritt.wordpress.com

Transcript of interview with Verena Debnar

Alexandra: Hi everyone I’m Alexandra Amor

from StopSufferingAbout.com and I’m here today with Verena Debnar. How are youtoday Verena?

Verena: I’m great. Thank you very much.

Alexandra: Good. It’s lovely to have you

here. So let me introduce you to our listeners.

Verena Debnar is working together with her

fiancee in his business around educating people about our money system, how wecan secure our savings, and what it has to do with our state of mind.

And then there is her other passion around

horses, animals and communicating with nature. And while these two subjectslook unrelated they really are not. Verena is fascinated to find out more aboutthis connection and helping other people explore their own potential and live morejoyful lives.

I love that. What don’t you Introduce us a little bit more to yourself, Verena. Tell us a little bit about your background.

Verena: My name is Verena and I’m living in the south of Germany. My day job, so to speak, is I’m writing working together with my fiancee about educating people around money systems and how much this has to do with our lives and living a fulfilled life. How much we think about money and effort and how we. We can live more joyful lives.

And then there is this other side that

really fascinates me around communicating with animals and communicating withnature and the connection that we have with each other. And I just find itfascinating how these two seemingly very different subjects come together.

Alexandra: How do those two things connect?

Verena: What I what I see when I’m communicating with animals and with nature, I can see how we learn so much or we can learn so much about ourselves. About the connection that we.

Sometimes it’s a bit difficult for me to practice

because it’s so much about feeling to find the right words about this feeling.It’s always a bit cumbersome because the words they are just a tool. Trying toreach and experience in words and something that might translate thisexperience but really really difficult. So please bear with me if that sounds abit funny.

Basically for me it is about experiencing

more joyful lives. Can you repeat the question?

Alexandra: No, that’s okay. I’m just really interested in it. We mentioned in your bio about how the exploration of money and the animal communication are connected or they overlap.

Verena: In my communication with nature I am learning so much about myself and I can see that out money system is a complete opposite from nature.

Nature is just what is it. And then there

is this thing that is not really a thing. Money is completely made up. I meanwe can have money as pieces of paper and coins and stuff but it really is justa concept. It really is just something that we made up.

And at the same time with such an emphasis

on it, so much in our lives is around how to make more money. This is how wegrow up in society. It’s kind of the most important thing to find the right jobor starting right business to make money.

I’m the best example of that; it’s my

journey to see how we are trained out of having this connection with ourselvesto follow our heart now, to really know what we want because well first we needto make money and then we can see or we can maybe have fun doing that or not. Butusually this part is already gone by then because we need to make money also.

And I just find it so fascinating how by

exploring our connection with nature I can see more of that kind of a paralleljourney.

Alexandra: So

it’s almost like seeing the realness of nature and the present moments of

nature you’re able to see the construct of money more clearly. Would that be

right?

Verena: Yeah, absolutely. That’s just

something that we bought, because before I thought money was the thing. Andthen I could see it; money doesn’t grow on trees. Money doesn’t grow anywhere.If some people want to make us think that money is working and then we get interestedin stuff.

No, it’s all just made up and how this

thing can control our lives. I just find it fascinating you know. And we let itcontrol our lives and it can’t control our lives but we let it.

Alexandra: Exactly. And then before we were recording you mentioned that you had been interested in animal communication years ago and then it came back into your life recently.

Tell us a bit about that journey and what

that’s been like for you.

Verena: That

was also really interesting because I’ve been interested in animalcommunication forever. And then it was about already ten years ago I visited aworkshop and I learned about how to get the basics around animal communicationand I tried a bit here and a bit there. I had some success and just somelearning experiences.

But something’s right something’s wrong. I never really went further because I was scared because it’s not something that comes easily. It’s a new skill. And I was scared to be wrong.

When I’m talking to someone and for example

they have a dog. They want to they let me communicate with. And then maybe Igot something wrong and I was like Oh gosh. But what does it mean about me andI’m a failure.

And so I kind of lost the connection to

that and still it was always in the back of my mind. And once I have a horsemyself and I really want to communicate with her and have her have the mostjoyful life she can now. And I’m very often puzzled about what she’s doing andwhat she’s not doing.

And so in the beginning of the year I

participated in the program by Michael Neill, Creating the Impossible program.I was thinking well what could I do? And this came to mind that I want tosupport my horse having a joyful life.

And then I thought how OK how can I do that?

I came up with a project of getting more experience with other animals justbecause it’s just easier with other people’s animals than with my own because Iknow her so well. And then I make these assumptions. What it could mean whatshe’s doing. And so it’s easier in one way to work with other people’s animalsbecause I don’t know anything about them. I usually just get a photograph andthe name and sometimes age.

And the other thing has been that the more

difficult part is to communicate with the people that I have to do it to tellthem OK what I got from the animal. And then they can judge me, is it right orwrong. And so that was really such an interesting journey.

The program was finished but I’m still

working on that. What I’m learning from the animals and from the interactionwith the people and the animals, it’s just amazing. I just love it.

Alexandra: Oh

that’s so great. I have a million questions now.

I love that this came out of Creating the Impossible,

which if people don’t know there’s a book that Michael’s written with the sametitle and then he also occasionally teaches the program. So it’s online based.Is that right?

Verena: Yeah.

Alexandra: And

you can when you join, whatever your impossible thing is, you work throughcreating it.

I find that so fascinating that this is

what you decided to explore while taking that class. That’s really cool.

How did you explore that? Did you take some

training about animal communication or have you just keep practicing with your

own skills?

Verena:  A little bit of both. I was reading

more. I also have the support of the Creating the Impossible community. I couldask people there first. It’s such a lovely community. This group of peoplecomes together for about three months and everybody’s working on their ownImpossible Project. So it’s really a very nice spirit.

They let me have conversations with their

animals and then there was also a lady who supported me there and she is an animalcommunicator herself. So she helped me as well. There are quite a few resourcesout there and I was just learning.

And then the main thing really was for me

to get more experience and to find out what I already can because it really isnatural to all of us. It’s often in the background of the base so much noise inour head.

We don’t really you hear what’s happening. We don’t really feel what’s going on between us and the other person or the other animal or nature. I just find it so amazing and so rich because I also saw how little we really know in life. It’s all there. When I have the courage to really stop and just be and me and listen.

Alexandra: Yes. I just want to turn our attention

slightly now. You have an awareness of the Three Principles.

How did you come across this understanding?

When did that start?

Verena: That was already quite a few years ago. It was Michael Neill. Ten, eleven, twelve years or something ago. So it really was when he started.

I followed his radio show on Hay House

radio before he transitioned to the Principles. I just love his program. He wasso happy and you just have such a fun way to help people.

And then all of a sudden I could feel there

was a difference coming in. He always had these five steps, three steps, ideas forwhat you could do and his newsletter. How you can improve your life. And sinceI’ve been on this path of self-improvement seemingly forever, I thought, Yeah,great. I have some steps. I can do something. I really liked his approach.

And then all of a sudden he stopped doing

that. He got more philosophical and I was really drawn to it. But there wasthis piece missing and I thought wow, yeah it sounds great and it feels good,but what am I going to do? It took me quite a few more years until I lookeddeeper into that into the principals and actually it was quite interesting.

I went to a monastery for a few days. I’m

not really a religious person. That’s the interesting part. But anyways I wentthere and I just needed some space. I just wanted to clear my head. And then Ihad a really interesting experience with one of the monks.

I was talking with him about God and the

world. And I was so surprised when I was asking him about who is God and I was expecting him to tell me you know likephrases from the Bible. No. Quite the contrary.

He was leaning back and closing his eyes

and I could just feel the now. He waslooking inside to find the right answers for this moment. No he didn’t go to hishead, he really went to his heart. I was so touched and moved.

And for some reason I connected it to the Principles.

It was really deep experience for me because I never expected to find that in achurch environment. Never. And then when I listen to Michael again it’s likeokay now that makes more sense because I had a felt experience. And then Istarted to visit workshops like the annual conference in the UK.

I went there and I just listened to

different people and participated in two courses and conferences. I find it soconnecting. It’s more of remembering or what’s already there. Yeah it alsoworks for me. It’s the connection with the inner communication. It’s all aboutlife. It’s all about this energy. It’s about life basically.

Alexandra: I just got a sense as you were

speaking of that really good feeling, this slowing down, the peace that is atour core.

Do you find that working with animals

enables you to connect with that perhaps more than you might if you were doing

a different kind of work?

Verena: Yeah

really great question because that’s exactly it. What I find with theconnection with the animals is it’s often easier than with people becauseanimals they don’t judge. But they also think. We are thinkers. Animals alsothink but they think differently than we do. They don’t think about themselves aswe do. They don’t really think about their life experience.

Every animal is unique. They have their own

preferences. They have their own likes and dislikes. Just like us.

The main goal, one of the main things that

is so different and that draws many people to animals is they don’t judge. Andthey have this big heart. They forgive so easily. They might still rememberwhat we do if we do some not so nice things. Their body will react to that butthey don’t hold grudges. It’s way easier to connect with animals. They continueto be open or to fall open with animals.

It’s a safer feeling around them.

Alexandra: You mentioned something there about thinking and about thought and this is something that I hadn’t really explored that much but it’s occurred to me every once in a while when we talk. I’m talking about thought now with a capital T, like Sydney Banks talked about Mind, Consciousness and, Thought.

And so that spiritual energy that comes

through us at all the time, coming to life moment to moment.

From what you can see that energy is also

coming through animals. Is that correct?

Verena: Yeah,

absolutely. All living beings really.

Alexandra: And you made this interesting

differentiation that animals though aren’t thinking about themselves as much aswe do, which I love hearing.

I’m guessing animals are very much more in

the moment.

Verena: Absolutely.

100%.

Alexandra: Just now that we’re talking about this

I’m realizing how powerful that is.

That must really inform you in a way or

show you maybe what’s possible when it comes to just allowing our own thoughts

and Thought with a capital T to flow through, moment to moment, and not get

attached to it.

Verena: Absolutely.

And when we allow ourselves to be open, it’s like we can share space with themand it’s easy to get drawn into the space that is always there. We just oftenmiss it because we have so much so occupied in our head.

When we are able to slow down and to share

this space with them it really feels like the moment it’s expanding andexpanding now to that we can connect in the moment that which is a truth. Weare always living in the moment, it just often feels different.

Alexandra: Yes.

Well now I have now I have a bunch of different.

I took Equus training years ago, the work

that you do on the ground with a horse and a round pen and sort of bonding withthem and connecting with them. And having them  reflect back to you how you’re showing up,that’s sort of the idea behind that kind of work. I work with a woman named KoelleSimpson.

But your work with animals is more about

asking them what they want and what they need.  Is that true?

Verena: Yes.

That’s a good way to put it. And I love how you see it immediately. It’samazing really.

It is quite a different approach. It’s not

about using the animals. It’s really about sharing with them. And also finding,exactly as you said, to find out what they want in their lives. What would helpthem. Because when we aren’t able to find that out and to improve their livesthen we are already benefiting in the moment just by asking these questions andfeeling the connection that is already the prize or one of the prizes. This isincredible because it happens instantly.

Alexandra: Yes. And so then it occurs to me to ask this: with your human clients, with the humans that have come to ask you to talk to their dog or their cat do you ever raise the ideas the principles with them?

Do you ever explore that with them? Or is

it strictly about what their cat or dog wants to say?

Verena: It’s

a mixture. A number of people are coming from the Three Principals backgrounds,so you talk about that. Again it really depends where the person is at.

So people just want to find out more about their life. Do they like the food or not this kind of thing. And it really depends where we are going. Sometimes I don’t talk about the Principles this way, but it’s not always par of our lives anyway. It just depends how we talking about it.

Alexandra: Yes.

Verena: Some people need to do to talk

about it literally, Mind and Consciousness and Thought. But for some people itwould just be way too much. So I find a different way.

Alexandra: Yes. I’m realizing as we’re speaking that animals are almost like this really great metaphor for understanding the Principles because what I’m thinking of is sometimes on YouTube of course there’s lots of funny cat videos but there’s sometimes a montage.

Those ones where a person will put a

cucumber near a cat. Have you ever seenthose ones?

Verena: No.

Alexandra: It’s this crazy thing. So I guess the premise is that cats don’t like cucumbers because they think it’s a snake. I think that’s the idea.

So what people will do if the cat is eating

out its dish and has its back to the person, the person will put the cucumberon the floor and then just wait and at some point the cat will turn around. Andwhat tends to happen is they tend to do that big vertical jump right into theair and then go rushing off because they’ve seen the cucumber and they thinkit’s a snake.

But what this makes me think of is a couple

of things. One that of course we can see that animals are thinking, they’re havingthought in the moment, because the cat thinks that cucumber is a snake and it’snot.

And that’s a great metaphor for us in our

own lives and how we’re reacting in the moment to whatever the situation is.

But then circling back to something you

said earlier is that animals are just so forgiving. The cat will have thatmoment where it’s frightened and then very quickly animals recover in a waythat I think as humans we really struggle to.

I’m just seeing it in this moment as we’re

talking that that ability that animals have to recover, as you say not to holdgrudges, not to be judgey, to just come back into the moment, is just such agreat example I think for us of being able to let go of our thinking and notruminate and get really sticky with whatever happened in the moment.

Verena: Absolutely.

And I really love how you put the idea of animals being a metaphor for us.

What I’m also seeing is the animals that

are sharing our living space, like cats, dogs, horses, they again are behaving ina different way than wild animals. They are undomesticated.

It’s really interesting to see how the

animals that are living with us how they start to have similar behavioralpatterns or things. Sometimes they share illnesses, for example.

Also to see that sometimes it’s more difficult for the animals that are in our care to recover from something than just a wild animal. Maybe you heard about the zebra for example that got chased by a lion and got away and it has this physical reaction. It needs all this adrenaline and if it was lucky enough to get away then after just a short moment they start to tremble to get all this energy out of the system.

And after a few moments they are grazing again

down for example. For us if we are there watching that we still would feel it. LikeI at least would be still thinking about it and still feeling it in my body forhours, maybe for days.

The animal, it’s fine. It’s gone, it’s over. It’s out of mins and I can see that the animals that I’m working with, they tend to be more like us, which I find is again such an interesting metaphor to just see that if we can see the difference in the animals that are becoming more like us and the animals that are not in our care and how what would be available to us and also animals. If we’re more in the moment.

Alexandra: Yes. Wow.

So you can see a difference between a

domesticated animal and a wild animal and how they’re reacting to their

thinking. Is that what you’re saying?

Verena: Maybe

not so much to that thinking, it’s more they are kind of taking on habits. It’smore like they are thinking differently than we do, so it’s more of anenergetic way of communication that’s happening there now because they are inour care and there are different connections and their survival is based on ourcare so they are not really completely free as any of the animals in the wild wouldbe.

Also, they have less worry, so to speak, because they don’t have to hunt. We provide free meals for them. But then again it’s still in their nature. So you get these two souls in them, so to speak.

And wild animals are free. They have more

stress in their lives because they have to provide their own food. But thenagain, it’s stress that is really going to go quickly out of the system again.You know like when they are getting hunted then it’s gone again. It’s just partof life.

Alexandra: I love that. Absolutely. This is

just fascinating. It is such an interesting part of life to explore and as wesaid a metaphor for the Principles and for our thinking and all that kind ofstuff. It’s just fascinating. Amazing.

So one final question then. As you’re

growing your animal communication business I always like to ask entrepreneursthat are aware of the Principles how they’re folding the Principles intogrowing that business.

Have you noticed anything for yourself

about that lately? What are you seeing about growing a business based on theprinciples?

Verena: Well

for me I think I’m in a fortunate position at the moment because I can explorethis side and I mean it’s pretty new for me. So I’m exploring my skills andanimal communication and I’m just passionate about it and I love that I canshare it and that I don’t have to focus on building a business at the sametime.

I did that in the past with different

endeavors and that was really stressful. I started to lose my heart and mypassion for what I was actually doing. So for me I am at the moment just reallyfocusing on having these experiences with nature, with animals and havingbusiness in the back of my mind.

It would be lovely to make a business

around it but I don’t want to put myself in the position I did this in the pastand I’m just doing what I like. I have a job with my own place and that’ssomething that is kind of complimentary as well. Even though it might look likeit’s I think it’s fortunate that I can do both at the same time.

Alexandra: That is great. I love hearing that. Well thank you so much. It has been amazing chatting with you. I’ve loved our connection and I can tell I’m going to have to be exploring this idea about animals and the metaphor for thought and all that kind of stuff for a while.

Why don’t you let our listeners know where

they can find out more about you and your work.

My website at the moment it’s in German. I do have some English interviews on that as well. It’s meinnaechsterschritt.wordpress.com. Maybe you can put that in the notes.

Alexandra: Absolutely.

Verena: And also you can also find me on

Facebook either under my name: Verena Debnar. The bottom line right page. My pageis about my next step. Just about everybody. Progress in life.

Alexandra: For sure I’ll put links in the

show notes to your website. And I was there the other day and God bless Googletranslate because it asked me if I wanted to translate the page and I said yesand then it just did and the whole thing was in English.

Verena: Wow, very cool.

Alexandra: Well thank you so much, Verena. I

really appreciate chatting with you.

Verena: Thank

you so much. It was really lovely. Beautiful chat. Thank you, Alexandra.

Alexandra: You’re

welcome. Bye bye.

Verena: Bye.

[Dog image courtesy Joe Caione and Unsplash.]