Real change is possible, but it rarely happens the way we expect. In this conversation, Joshua Meyer and Pastor Tom explore how Jesus brings lasting transformation by reshaping our desires, our thinking, and our understanding of who we are in Him. Drawing from Ephesians 4, they unpack both intentional practices and the quieter work of what Pastor Tom calls “indirect transformation,” where growth flows from falling more deeply in love with Christ. The discussion invites listeners to consider how mindset, identity, and spiritual maturity work together over time. This episode offers a hopeful, grace-filled framework for anyone longing to become who God created them to be.