In this wide-ranging conversation, renowned academic, scientist and former Vice-Chancellor Prof Malegapuru Makgoba joins Dr Sizwe Mpofu-Walsh to reflect on South Africa's democratic journey, leadership, governance and public institutions. Prof Makgoba discusses the Constitutional Court's impeachment ruling, President Cyril Ramaphosa, Nelson Mandela's legacy, Thabo Mbeki's presidency, the HIV/AIDS crisis, the Life Esidimeni tragedy, Eskom, political interference in state institutions, his scientific career at Oxfor, and the challenges of transformation in higher education.