What do you do when the world refuses to become what you know it should be? In this conversation, Steven Garber introduces the concept of "the proximate" - learning to make peace with what is nearly, but not yet, true - in our marriages, our work for justice, and our longing for God's kingdom to come. Drawing on Tolkien, Augustine, the Clapham Society, and the surprising cry of a postmodern novelist, Steven helps us understand the difference between hope and optimism, what it means to carry o...