Bob Kocher speaks with Brad Stulberg, on the many lessons in his newly-published book The Way of Excellence, including why we find excellence on the side of the mountain, not at its peak. Drawing on the ancient Greek concept of Arete, Brad argues that you find true success in pursuit itself: the bidirectional process where chasing a goal, whether writing a book, building a company, or competing in sport, shapes your character as much as you shape the outcome. They go deeper on the optimistic lessons from his book, including why joy is life's true renewable energy source.